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scarynikki12

Batwoman in the Media: Send the Bat Signal

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Yeah, I'd much rather watch a recast Kate Kane than a random new character who has no real connection to all the other characters we've been watching. What's the impact of having Tommy stealing Bruce's face if the Batwoman that's around doesn't really care? The tension between Alice and Batwoman works because they are twins.

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11 minutes ago, TiffanyNichelle said:

I guess now we know what they are going to do about recasting. Batwoman will be recast, not Kate Kane, according to EW.

THis is the dumbest decision they've made...introduce to a brand new character who will have to form relationships with all of Kates friends/families/villains....might as well just do a total reboot of the show.

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I don’t like this news AT all. This quickly became one of my favorite shows and now I don’t even want to watch anymore. ☹️

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14 minutes ago, TiffanyNichelle said:

What's the impact of having Tommy stealing Bruce's face if the Batwoman that's around doesn't really care? The tension between Alice and Batwoman works because they are twins.

And Batwoman's father is hunting her, her team includes her other sister Mary, and she gained her initial access to all of her gear because she's Bruce's cousin! This is a family centered show, both blood family and chosen family, and bringing in Random Character X to take over really won't work. The show isn't called Gotham, where the focus can shift onto Alice, Mary, the Crows, etc., but BATWOMAN. And ours is Kate Kane.

My hope is that this is one of the Arrowverse media fakeouts (eg, Tina turning out to be Dinah Drake and Maya turning out to be Mia Smoak) and what we really get is a new version of Kate. She decides to embrace life and becomes lighter and funnier in personality as a result.

That or everyone rightly calls them on this bad decision and they pretend it was to throw off spoiler hunters from the start.

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6 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

My hope is that this is one of the Arrowverse media fakeouts (eg, Tina turning out to be Dinah Drake and Maya turning out to be Mia Smoak)

I’ve seen some speculation that this new character will turn out to be Helena Wayne.  And it would make sense of the line “A girl who would steal milk for an alley cat” if she’s Selina’s daughter.  That said, this does not seem to be....one of their better choices. 😬

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Is this new Batwoman also supposed to become best friends with Kara and everyone else?

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TVLine with the same re-casting info: https://tvline.com/2020/06/02/batwoman-recast-season-2-new-character-replaces-kate-kane/

---

WHAT

Wow. This is really crazy. Kate Kane with a new face was going to be awkward, but with the strong supporting cast and compelling story, I was going to try and roll with it. But now they're rebooting the central character and essentially the entire show, WHAT IS EVEN HAPPENING.

Wiping out all the relationships they've built up to start from the ground up?? The twisted sister triangle was the best thing happening here; now most of the heart of the show is gone.

This seems really drastic. It's only been one season with RR; I don't think this is necessary.

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4 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Is this new Batwoman also supposed to become best friends with Kara and everyone else?

😥  ugh - Thanks for reminding me; this reboots SuperBat too.

Hopefully this means they re-do the next crossover story; because I don't think centering it on the two newest shows when one is now retooling is going to work.

How are they even going to write Kate out when they didn't even finish the season??

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1 minute ago, Trini said:

😥  ugh - Thanks for reminding me; this reboots SuperBat too.

Hopefully this means they re-do the next crossover story; because I don't think centering it on the two newest shows when one is now retooling is going to work.

How are they even going to write Kate out when they didn't even finish the season??

"Where is Kate?"
"She up and disappeared just like Bruce"
"We're doomed!"
"Hi guys, I just stumbled upon the same cave that Kate stumbled upon and decided to try on her suit...it fit pretty well so...I'm Batwoman now!"

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This better be one hell of a misdirect because they KNEW this was going to get leaked and actors will be secretly auditioned for a new Kate. Because what is being presented currently doesn’t make any sense at all. Too many stories have been established and this show is based on the back and forth relationship between Kate and Alice, Jacob not knowing the truth about his daughter, and Mary and Luke becoming the Bat Team. 
 

Are they trying to pull a Dallas style “that season was a bad dream” scenario? Are they going to call on Barry Allen to purposely go back in time to reset all of this?
 

This is a lot of shit they’re going to blow up. Considering how good the season was getting near the back end, I’m concerned on how this will play out. Because casting a new Batwoman affects the Superman crossover and above all, her BFF Kara Danvers.

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I don't think there was a winning solution, here. I agree that casting a new character probably won't work very well because they were building toward a story for Kate Kane. She has connections with everyone, not this new character. Even if this new character turns out to be a long lost sister or another cousin, it won't be the same.

But recasting wasn't going to work short-term either. People would be constantly comparing Ruby Rose's version to this new actress' version. This new actress would have to emulate as much of Ruby's verision of Kate while also adding her own flair to the character. But recasting would lead to a lot of comparisons and who knows how long that would go on for before people would get comfortable with the new actress.

Ultimately, there's no good solution. They're screwed for season 2 a little bit, no matter which direction they go.

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8 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I don't think there was a winning solution, here. I agree that casting a new character probably won't work very well because they were building toward a story for Kate Kane. She has connections with everyone, not this new character. Even if this new character turns out to be a long lost sister or another cousin, it won't be the same.

But recasting wasn't going to work short-term either. People would be constantly comparing Ruby Rose's version to this new actress' version. This new actress would have to emulate as much of Ruby's verision of Kate while also adding her own flair to the character. But recasting would lead to a lot of comparisons and who knows how long that would go on for before people would get comfortable with the new actress.

Ultimately, there's no good solution. They're screwed for season 2 a little bit, no matter which direction they go.

Of course they'd always be compared to Ruby starting out but it's something that would've faded likely halfway through the series. If the actress were strong enough, they likely would've erased a lot of peoples thoughts about comparing her to Ruby pretty quickly. Now they have to create all these new storylines and we have to get to know this character after wasting 20 episodes getting to know Kate. Even messier.

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9 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Of course they'd always be compared to Ruby starting out but it's something that would've faded likely halfway through the series. If the actress were strong enough, they likely would've erased a lot of peoples thoughts about comparing her to Ruby pretty quickly. Now they have to create all these new storylines and we have to get to know this character after wasting 20 episodes getting to know Kate. Even messier.

Maybe, maybe not. It's hard to fully predict the reaction, no matter which direction they go in. Seriously, I really don't think one option is better than the other, I truly don't. Both are equally as shitty. They can't know that, if they recast Kate, that the actress would have the same type of chemistry with the other actors and actresses. With a new character, they don't have to try to rely on the chemistry with the other actors.

But, again, I dislike both options, so bringing in a new character still sucks because the story they had planned will be changed or scrapped.

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Of course they'd always be compared to Ruby starting out but it's something that would've faded likely halfway through the series. If the actress were strong enough, they likely would've erased a lot of peoples thoughts about comparing her to Ruby pretty quickly. Now they have to create all these new storylines and we have to get to know this character after wasting 20 episodes getting to know Kate. Even messie

I agree. The show is centred around Kate. It makes no sense to do this. All the stories and character dynamics they've built up are gone. I grew to like Ruby's portrayal but it was hardly so iconic they can't possibly recast.  Maybe this sort of massive reboot might have been justified if she left after a few seasons. At this point a recast would've been simpler. 

Edited by Oreo2234
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1 hour ago, Starfish35 said:

I’ve seen some speculation that this new character will turn out to be Helena Wayne.  And it would make sense of the line “A girl who would steal milk for an alley cat” if she’s Selina’s daughter.  That said, this does not seem to be....one of their better choices. 😬

OH MY GOD I WILL TAKE BACK EVERY RESERVATION IF THIS BECOMES REALITY!!! I WAS ALREADY HOPING HELENA WOULD SHOW UP ON THIS (OR ANY) SHOW AND NOW I WANT NOTHING MORE!!!!!!!

OHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGODOHMYGOD!!!!

(I promise to keep myself in check just in case this doesn't happen but OHMYGOD!!)

1 hour ago, Trini said:

How are they even going to write Kate out when they didn't even finish the season??

I think she gets killed while in costume to open the season.

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All I know is that I trust Caroline Dries as a writer/showrunner more than just about any writer/showrunner EVER from her previous work so whatever she plans to do... I have faith it will be good.

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31 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

 

1 hour ago, Trini said:

How are they even going to write Kate out when they didn't even finish the season??

I think she gets killed while in costume to open the season.

Ignoring all the storylines they didn't finish? The biggest one, which most people want to see, being Kate seeing "Bruce" again.

If this new Batwoman news is true, it seems like a lot of things will need to be re-written, disrupting nearly all arcs.

I'm also afraid that with Kate Kate gone we might lose one or two supporting characters that were connected to her.

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3 minutes ago, driver18 said:

All I know is that I trust Caroline Dries as a writer/showrunner more than just about any writer/showrunner EVER from her previous work so whatever she plans to do... I have faith it will be good.

I just wonder...was this her decision or the networks? That can make a major difference.

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4 minutes ago, Trini said:

Ignoring all the storylines they didn't finish? The biggest one, which most people want to see, being Kate seeing "Bruce" again.

If this new Batwoman news is true, it seems like a lot of things will need to be re-written, disrupting nearly all arcs.

I'm also afraid that with Kate Kate gone we might lose one or two supporting characters that were connected to her.

My guess is that seeing "Bruce" again distracts her enough that she gets killed on a mission. Maybe by him directly (though it would piss off Alice and put his cover at risk) or someone (assassin sent by Big Bad) else and that kick starts the season 2 story.

If the spec that the new Batwoman will be Helena Wayne (OHPLEASEOHPLEASEOHPLEASE) then a lot of the same emotional beats can still be achieved with "Bruce" while the challenge comes from laying a new foundation with her Kane relatives. Since they apparently aren't simply recasting Kate I expect they may treat season 2 as part reboot and part spinoff. At least in their approach.

They better not get rid of any of the supporting cast but figure out a way to make everyone work in their new normal. Every remaining character has a role that can still be played. If there are any characters who aren't working by the end of season 2, then write them out but they all deserve the chance to see if they will.

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7 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

They better not get rid of any of the supporting cast but figure out a way to make everyone work in their new normal. Every remaining character has a role that can still be played. If there are any characters who aren't working by the end of season 2, then write them out but they all deserve the chance to see if they will.

In theory... we'll see if the writing concurs.

With an entirely new central character, I feel it's inevitable someone gets dropped. Maybe it will take until the end of Season 2, but it'll happen. If only to have room to bring in characters connected to the new lead.

Anyway, can't believe this is happening on the one show where literal face-swapping is canon.

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I think being compared to Ruby would have faded too, especially if the show went say, five seasons. I agree both options are equally shitty in their own way. This was the last opportunity to recast Kate but equally it's not easy to reboot with a different character after a few years ala Stargate, The Office etc. They tried with Arrow but eventually decided to end it with Oliver. 

Shame they couldn't use Crisis to reboot stuff somehow. 

I was worried about the supporting cast because they were starting to develop and a new Kate would inevitably mean different writing and acting and changes but with a completely new character what's going to happen to my Mary? She is a fan favourite so I don't necessarily see her going completely but in theory a Helena Wayne could bring in her own supporting cast by the end of the season and Kate's Robin Hood step sister could be surplus in that scenario.  Jacob could well be gone. 

Not to mention 90% of Alice is based on being Kate's sister. If she was just a random crazy psychopath with a sad backstory, so what? Put her in Arkham and have done with it and have her break out occasionally like Reverse Flash pops up alive. Doesn't mean the same things even with Bruce's long lost daughter or something. 

Sophie wouldn't have the same crappy backstory with Nu!Batwoman but she wouldn't have the connection either. Is she going to be just a cop now or also fall for the next woman in the cape considering she never officially found out it was Kate? Why would new girl want to date her? Arrowverse first season OTP curse strikes again? 

Luke I guess is the easiest to transfer over. 

TBH I haven't really liked Caroline Dries as a showrunner much in the past but we'll see what she does with it. At this point it's much more likely going to involved Berlanti, CW, DC deciding what's going to happen rather than just her. 

LOT successful rebooted itself in S2 and was almost it's own spin off after Savage, the Hawks and Rip(kind of) left, but that was a completely different type of show and randomly bringing in a different character to play your title character

Plus "she's an angry, messy, passionate, full on wild girl of the streets hiding her pain".  Right. 

It could just be a fakeout, I suppose we'll wait and see but TVLine did say they confirmed it and weren't just relying on potentially fake casting sides. 

Edited by Featherhat
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Well, can't wait to see the nose-dive of the ratings next season. I mean, who was the moron who thought it is such a good idea to not only recast the character, but create a new superhero that will replace Batwoman? Imbeciles, the lot of them.

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I hope this is a misdirect (although: why? We all know Batwoman has to be recast), because otherwise, I hate it. Luke could easily be transferred over to any new version of the show as he and Kate don't have the complicated history she has with the others, but everyone else is tied so closely to Kate that replacing her character removes all of their tension and motivation. Her dad is out to get her, her twin is out to get her, her stepsister is finally working with her, her exes are dating and being hunted by someone Kate also (likely) has history with... even some recurring characters (like Parker) and characters from other shows (like Kara) are tied directly to Kate as Kate, not as Batwoman. How on earth are they going to write her out of her own show when she is the center of it?

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Yeahhhhh, I was already very wary of recasting in the first place,  I know they don't have a choice,  but still.   If this news is real and not a misdirect I'm fucking out.   Even if it's Helena,  who I adore,  I'm out,  because it changes the show fundamentally and to one I didn't sign up to watch.  I guess I'll always have season one and the crossovers.

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I've said it before. The show is at its best when it focuses on Kate's relationship with her family. That powerful emotional connection with Alice, Jacob and Mary will be lost. And I am one of the few who was actually rooting for Kate and Sophie to work things out and get back together. Now that won't happen either.

I don't even know what to say. I may give it a chance if they cast a woman of color in the role. It would be nice to finally have a non-white female protagonist but I am not counting on that either.

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4 hours ago, Rushmoras said:

I mean, who was the moron who thought it is such a good idea to not only recast the character, but create a new superhero that will replace Batwoman?

But they're not replacing Batwoman, they're replacing Kate Kane.

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Yeah....I change my mind on the making a new character plan. There's a reason why I found myself loving Batwoman by the second half and have considered it one of the better CW shows this season. They had such a great story going for them and now it's just not going to work at all for season 2. 

As much as I don't like recasting Kate Kane in general, they have no other choice, not with the story they have set up that would work so well. I think I could get past the new actress playing Kate...eventually. I know it wouldn't be the same, but I think I have decided that it beats throwing out season 1 to start fresh with season 2. Alice has no reason to become a better version of herself if Kate is dead, so Alice stays a villain (I would find it contrived if she became better through this new character). Jacob has no reason to feel conflicted once he rips off the mask of Batwoman so that also goes out the window. Sophie won't have a connection with Batwoman in the same way. 

It's just not going to be the same. I was going back and forth and I still stand by the opinion that there's no good solution, but I was really interested in the story they had set up.

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20 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

It's just not going to be the same. I was going back and forth and I still stand by the opinion that there's no good solution, but I was really interested in the story they had set up.

There's definitely no good solution at all. My big issue with this supposed change is that all the relationships the show is based around were based on Kate not Batwoman, with the possible exception of Luke who was only really just starting to find a rhythm with Kate. Is Kara also supposed to instantly bond with the new girl (again) because they want their SuperBat power friendship so much? 

Pretty much anything to do with Alice has gone for me. RS is great but just scenery chewing with nothing else won't do it for me, even if new character is Bruce's daughter and they're cousins. Does Mary stay on team in memory of Kate and awkwardly bond over trying to help the less fortunate with her clinic? Flamebird time? Sophie's probably in the most awkward position either staying as a cop with nothing else to do except a side romance or getting into a love triangle situation with a completely different character. Maybe shades of Laurel once they removed her from love interest. 

It would be fine if this was a faceless action show where one angsty hero is as good as another or even a "Death in Paradise" where one hapless, fish out of water white British/Irish detective can be replaced by another as long as St. Marie and the supporting cast are the same even though relationships change each time. 

Even with LOT there's massive grumbling over changes to the line up and that doesn't potentially throw out half the rest of the cast every time as well. 

I do find it hilarious at on twitter and other places MG seems to be getting the blame because he alone(!) created Felicity and Sara and was responsible for their rise above canon characters (except obviously not) even though he has FA to do with Batwoman and there are at least 5-10 other people who would have much more say in Kate recast vs Nu!Bat. 

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With an entirely new central character, I feel it's inevitable someone gets dropped. Maybe it will take until the end of Season 2, but it'll happen. If only to have room to bring in characters connected to the new lead.

Anyway, can't believe this is happening on the one show where literal face-swapping is canon.

I agree. I would be nervous about this move if I were part of the supporting cast. And they appear to be making the new Batwoman somewhat younger. That could make it more difficult to keep any of Kate's love interests around. 

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3 hours ago, sugarbaker design said:

But they're not replacing Batwoman, they're replacing Kate Kane.

And that's the whole issue why everyone is upset, cause KK is Batwoman. They might as well create a new series with new cast. I really do not see this working out in the long run (I could see it now, in the first episode KK is shot by Jacob; moving forward a few months years, a new hero is introduced). I'll pass. All of the relationships that KK had down the drain.

Edited by Rushmoras

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37 minutes ago, Rushmoras said:

And that's the whole issue why everyone is upset, cause KK is Batwoman.

Well, not everyone is upset.  I was not impressed with RR's acting style (or lack thereof).  I thought the storyline with Alice was winding down, and I was thoroughly finished with bad cop Jacob Kane.  Bright spots were the writing, the directing, the overall pacing of the season, and the characters of Mary and Luke.  Jettisoning Kate Kane and giving us a new Batwoman opens up the field for replacements to actors of various shades.  Like someone posted above, I have faith in the writing talents of Catherine Dries to pull this one off.  I'm looking forward to season 2.

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If they pick somebody related to Batman they can keep most of the dynamics going. 

I do think the Alice in Wonderland  story was kind of winding down and she would pop into the story a few times a season.

In season 1 the supporting characters were the ones making the show fun and I don't see them going anywhere. If they find a good actress for the new part people will forget all about RR (as long as they don't cut the budget and keep the good writers). 

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15 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

I just wonder...was this her decision or the networks? That can make a major difference.

I can't imagine that the showrunner who spent the whole season on Kate and her relationships would just decide to start over with an entirely new person in the central role after a fairly successful first season. I'm sure Dries had some say, but I doubt this was her first or preferred choice. The post-finale interviews with her seemed to indicate Kate's story would continue.
 

2 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

It's just not going to be the same. I was going back and forth and I still stand by the opinion that there's no good solution, but I was really interested in the story they had set up.

There's no good solution, but this second option is SO MUCH messier.
 

5 hours ago, Starry said:

I don't even know what to say. I may give it a chance if they cast a woman of color in the role. It would be nice to finally have a non-white female protagonist but I am not counting on that either.

With Batwoman being a new character, the thought did cross my mind also that they could cast someone non-White -- but yeah, I don't think that will happen either.

It's also occurred to me that they might go for a "name" again, since it's a new character, and now they really need to get people to come back.

----

Re: supporting characters: I feel like Jacob and Sophie (in that order) are most in danger.

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20 minutes ago, Trini said:

Re: supporting characters: I feel like Jacob and Sophie (in that order) are most in danger.

I can't say I'd be disappointed in Jacob disappearing, but I think Sophie was starting to find her groove with Julia. I think Sophie could stay if Julia sticks around, because those two were starting to become a great team and Sophie was really moving away from Kate in general. 

I would say Alice is more in danger than Sophie. At the very least, any chance of Alice being redeemed, even with the evil that she's done, is growing smaller and smaller, as they were definitely leading toward the idea that Kate would be the person to get Alice to be better and, without Kate, there's not really a reason for Alice to stick around in Gotham, let alone be a better person. After all, she just killed Mouse for Kate. 

The only way Alice sticks around is if Kate is brutally murdered and Alice decides to stay to find her killer. 

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4 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

The only way Alice sticks around is if Kate is brutally murdered and Alice decides to stay to find her killer. 

 I think you just revealed the storyline for next season. ☹️

They have a way to keep Alice and make her frenemy antagonist for a while and everyone else bands together in Kate's honour. Plus insert new Batwoman. They've done variations on that storyline before. Albeit not for a title character. 

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9 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I would say Alice is more in danger than Sophie. At the very least, any chance of Alice being redeemed, even with the evil that she's done, is growing smaller and smaller, as they were definitely leading toward the idea that Kate would be the person to get Alice to be better and, without Kate, there's not really a reason for Alice to stick around in Gotham, let alone be a better person. After all, she just killed Mouse for Kate. 

Skarsten and Alice are the best things in the show (not to mention the secondary lead); no way they are getting rid of her. I feel like Alice is actually the safest out of everyone.

If Alice was getting a redemption arc, it wasn't happening anytime soon, IMO. They seemed to be setting up for her to get worse. (I think Dries said this outright in an interview?) Even without her personal connection to Batwoman, I think they could find reasons for her to stick around as a villain. Plus, she's already connected to the next Big Bad, Safiyah.

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I know many are worried about what's going to happen, I understand the concern, but Caroline Dries is brilliant. She writes for CHARACTERS, their relationships and motivations and plots and story come out of that. I have zero doubt that whatever season 02 brings us, it will be good, nay great. Especially since we have the opportunity to now actually have a great actress in the lead role.

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Luke's a given to stay.  There has to be tech support and he had the least connection to Kate.  Mary's a fan favorite so she's not going any where, whether it makes sense or not.   She clearly loves being on a superhero almost as much as working with her stepsister, so she would stick around if nothing other than to be medical support for the team.  Her interactions would be much less meaningful but they will probably put her in a relationship with Luke to give her more of an emotional hook.   The rest of the cast doesn't make sense to stick around.   Even if the new Batwoman is a Wayne, the connection to the Kane is through Kate's dead mother not Jacob.

 So is the new Batwoman going to just happen to be gay too?  Or have they bailed on looking for a gay actress?  

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4 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

The only way Alice sticks around is if Kate is brutally murdered and Alice decides to stay to find her killer. 

I think it's the only believable path to any level of redemption arc for Alice. And a great way to get her and Mary working together. 

5 minutes ago, Maverick said:

 So is the new Batwoman going to just happen to be gay too?  Or have they bailed on looking for a gay actress?  

https://decider.com/2020/06/02/batwoman-season-2-ryan-wilder-replace-kate-kane-batwoman/ According to this they're looking for LGBTQ actor.

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5 minutes ago, Maverick said:

 So is the new Batwoman going to just happen to be gay too?  Or have they bailed on looking for a gay actress?  

Batwoman will still be gay. Will they try to have her get with Sophie though....is the question. Just another in the long list of "OG End Game" long interests crashing and burning. 

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I hate when shows have someone we've never seen before come in and randomly take over a prior character's life.  They buy their/business/take over their job/rent their house/etc etc etc.    So I'm not going to enjoy some rando coming in taking over Gotham Pride Realty, running the Holed Up, dating Sophie, being antagonistic with Jacob and becoming Batwoman all based on some flimsy, contrived reasons. 

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I thought Ruby did a decent job overall, and certainly seemed to be growing into the role.  However, I’d much rather keep Kate Kane and her relationships with the other characters, than move on to some new person for the sake of continuity.

If they do insist on replacing her, I certainly hope “Ryan Wilder” is a cover for casting- Billie Finger has a nice ring to it though...
Also- Ryan Wilder, who lives in a van.  Ryan “lives in a van” Wilder.  Ryan Van Wilder.  Huh.

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8 minutes ago, Chyromaniac said:

I certainly hope “Ryan Wilder” is a cover for casting-

It's most certainly a fake name; which is common when casting these DC shows.

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45 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

...  Will they try to have her get with Sophie though....is the question. Just another in the long list of "OG End Game" long interests crashing and burning. 

But this time it's the lead that's leaving; so points for originality!

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22 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

I just wonder...was this her decision or the networks? That can make a major difference.

Normally showrunners/writers have to map out their season plans to the network, but I'm pretty sure the Arrowverse shows need to get input from the people at DC to be allowed to use character names and likeness, especially the top tier ones like Batman and Superman.  

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