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2 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Tim became annoying and even dumber, they broke up Al and Ilene for nothing Al didn't date or do anything except become even more of a whipped Mama's boy then before and Wilson became an idiot.  Mark's Goth phase could have been interesting but it went nowhere. 

Yeah, some things Tim did were just... really stupid even for him. As for Al all of sudden the writers felt they wouldn't be able to write Al married so they broke them up and then really, his character drifted and don't get me started on that extremely stupid Tim has to "pretend" to be single so Al feels confident to date. I know the writers kind of came to their senses and then brought in Trudy so Al could get married and they felt it was going straight through. however, Alma dying was never the original plan as up until January of the final season, they didn't know it was going to be the LAST season for the show. Al and Trudy were always meant to get married at the end of the season and then just brought it together to wrap up the series with the wedding. 

  I don't get some writers/producers who go: "We can't write married characters" or think they should just throw a story in like: "Let's break these characters up." Or "hey how about a baby late in life." When they have NO IDEA what to do with the story, just the classic: "let's see where it goes." Which is what happened with Goth Mark. All of sudden, they just got tired of it, and of course the actor who played Ronny was kind of thrown out after the pot episode. So, I think that also didn't help because they would have to bring Ronny back or just go: "Well, one less actor to pay". Who knows at this point, but they got tired of it and soon Mark was magically fine when the new season started again. But poor Tim, gave up NASA and the fact that even before that, Jill said Tim was going to pay for going into space and training. 

 Yeah Jill, one in a life time opportunity, so sure he has to pay. Why?

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So I turned on Touched By An Angel on Hallmark Drama, and guess what just so happens to be on?

The episode with none other than Zachery Ty Bryan!

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21 hours ago, readster said:

Yeah, some things Tim did were just... really stupid even for him. As for Al all of sudden the writers felt they wouldn't be able to write Al married so they broke them up and then really, his character drifted and don't get me started on that extremely stupid Tim has to "pretend" to be single so Al feels confident to date. I know the writers kind of came to their senses and then brought in Trudy so Al could get married and they felt it was going straight through. however, Alma dying was never the original plan as up until January of the final season, they didn't know it was going to be the LAST season for the show. Al and Trudy were always meant to get married at the end of the season and then just brought it together to wrap up the series with the wedding. 

  I don't get some writers/producers who go: "We can't write married characters" or think they should just throw a story in like: "Let's break these characters up." Or "hey how about a baby late in life." When they have NO IDEA what to do with the story, just the classic: "let's see where it goes." Which is what happened with Goth Mark. All of sudden, they just got tired of it, and of course the actor who played Ronny was kind of thrown out after the pot episode. So, I think that also didn't help because they would have to bring Ronny back or just go: "Well, one less actor to pay". Who knows at this point, but they got tired of it and soon Mark was magically fine when the new season started again. But poor Tim, gave up NASA and the fact that even before that, Jill said Tim was going to pay for going into space and training. 

 Yeah Jill, one in a life time opportunity, so sure he has to pay. Why?

Yeah, it was dumb they broke Al and Ilene up and for what? Its not as if they replaced it with anything. Al pretty much did nothing until he met Trudy. Him needing Tim to come along with him to help him pick up women made no sense by that point. He'd already had two long term girlfriends and a few women that he went on a couple dates with. If it was way back in season one it might make more sense. They spent five seasons slowly showing Al gaining confidence in women and putting together that game and building a relationship only just end it. The reason didn't even make any sense. On their wedding day they suddenly decide neither wanted to get married. Ah why? Ilene spent a episode thinking Al was never going to marry her, and they looked compatible in pretty much everyway. They loved mini golf and wearing goofy outfits. After a long annoying Christmas episode Al finally learned to put IIene first. They should have just married them. We could have a season of newly wed Al and Ilene followed by another one of pregnancy and 1st baby. That would have been better then Al doing nothing until season eight. I don't mind Alma dying at some point but Al's arc should have included him standing up to his mother. 

Mark's Goth phase could have been interesting. They finally gave Mark an interested and personality. Up until that he had activities that were always forgotten about and they never really did much with him. Brad was jock, Randy was the wise cracking journalist who became an activist, and Mark was well Mark.  Then didn't do anything with it. Why didn't they bother to come up with a plan for it? The best idea would have been tying it back to Fred's sudden death, along with Randy's questioning everything and Tim's midlife crisis. It was weird that for Mark and Tim they basically threw it out there and then did nothing with it. Except have the two experts Jill and Wilson both act like they have no idea what's up with Tim. Not that it mattered because it went no where. Take it somewhere. Do something with it. Maybe Mark goes Goth because Ronnie's the first friend he makes and goes to a Goth thing and makes more friends. Or maybe just finds it interesting. Or maybe is just trying something new. Show us a reason why he and Ronnie are friends. Given that Ronnie rarely speaks its hard to imagine how they became friends. 

How terrible is it that they make Tim miss out on NASA? That was absolutely crappy. Mark and Jill both should have been telling Tim to go. That's something Tim clearly wanted to do, missing a year at home really isn't that big of a deal. Why did he have to "pay" for it. You don't make someone especially your spouse "pay" for making a dream come true. I just can't believe Tim had to give that up.

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1 hour ago, andromeda331 said:

 

Mark's Goth phase could have been interesting. They finally gave Mark an interested and personality. Up until that he had activities that were always forgotten about and they never really did much with him. Brad was jock, Randy was the wise cracking journalist who became an activist, and Mark was well Mark.  Then didn't do anything with it. Why didn't they bother to come up with a plan for it? The best idea would have been tying it back to Fred's sudden death, along with Randy's questioning everything and Tim's midlife crisis. It was weird that for Mark and Tim they basically threw it out there and then did nothing with it. Except have the two experts Jill and Wilson both act like they have no idea what's up with Tim. Not that it mattered because it went no where. Take it somewhere. Do something with it. Maybe Mark goes Goth because Ronnie's the first friend he makes and goes to a Goth thing and makes more friends. Or maybe just finds it interesting. Or maybe is just trying something new. Show us a reason why he and Ronnie are friends. Given that Ronnie rarely speaks its hard to imagine how they became friends. 

 

Right, it was: "Well, here is what we are going to do, but who CARES how it happened." I'm sorry, as a high school teacher, even people who "don't like to talk" or say so little. You see the COMPLETE opposite when they are with their groups of friends. You go: "Well I know they talk and must in order for people to you know, get to know you." Ronny only words were: "Sure." "Yeah." Laugh and stare and then be: "We should!" Yet, Mark could talk with anyone from limited to constant words. Yet, we are expecting he was Mark's "only friend". It was kind of how Brad had "smooth" Jason for a while. Least with the parties and Brad was interating with other kids his age. Same with Randy and Lauran. However, Mark you just had Ronny and later Jill's professor's stepson. I mean, they didn't even pretend that Mark knew people unless he was interested in a girl or something. Except for the first few seasons from boy scouts to the school play or church children's choir. Mark had like NO FRIENDS EVER.

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Watching the Season 5 premiere this weekend, yep there was the switch of Jill to being more like Fred. Granted, Tim was trying to shove too much into the weekend for the Jill's cousin wedding. However, this proved so much about Jill's family. NONE of the boys want to see them, also apparently they see this family SO MUCH, no one can remember who is who. Plus, the cousin Judy who shows up in their room and is just SO DARN HAPPY to see them. Shows they barely have seen them, when her father has been dead for ten years. Also, NOTHING was stopping Jill from going with Tim and the boys to the outings. Half the time she didn't want to be the "other events" and was avoiding them half the time. Now, the ski jump is completely Tim's fault, but as he also points out, why didn't Jill just let go of the rope? Plus, later on NO ONE from Jill's parents to sisters are at the wedding. Apparently, Jill was a favorite, because she didn't want to invite anyone else. 

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I finally found evidence that Taran Noah Smith appeared on a PBS show!

Capture-3.png

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He appeared in the second episode of Season 1, which was called My Dog Has Fleas.

Edited by MikaelaArsenault

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Laff is having another marathon of the show on Sunday. What's interesting though is that they're mixing it up and showing episodes from Seasons 6, 8, 7, 3, and 4.

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On 3/7/2020 at 5:15 AM, MikaelaArsenault said:

Laff is having another marathon of the show on Sunday. What's interesting though is that they're mixing it up and showing episodes from Seasons 6, 8, 7, 3, and 4.

I know, they were jumping around seasons, some great episodes and some, I would rather forget. Seeing the Chicago episode again, could Bud being any more inconsiderate. Same with the producer in Chicago: "We have to stop showing Michigan." Well, the show is BASED in Detroit, why do you think that is? Another thing, when you had episodes where Tim was acknowledging their new networks. Why didn't they decide to do episodes based on those stations? That would have made a whole lot more sense. Instead of: "Well, I hate that you just base your show in the Michigan area." I'm sure even when Bob Villa was doing both This Old House and Home Again, networks were going: "Hey you need to do more episodes based in states you will probably never visit." Especially, when the show DID do that. 

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On 2/20/2020 at 4:23 PM, readster said:

Right, it was: "Well, here is what we are going to do, but who CARES how it happened." I'm sorry, as a high school teacher, even people who "don't like to talk" or say so little. You see the COMPLETE opposite when they are with their groups of friends. You go: "Well I know they talk and must in order for people to you know, get to know you." Ronny only words were: "Sure." "Yeah." Laugh and stare and then be: "We should!" Yet, Mark could talk with anyone from limited to constant words. Yet, we are expecting he was Mark's "only friend". It was kind of how Brad had "smooth" Jason for a while. Least with the parties and Brad was interating with other kids his age. Same with Randy and Lauran. However, Mark you just had Ronny and later Jill's professor's stepson. I mean, they didn't even pretend that Mark knew people unless he was interested in a girl or something. Except for the first few seasons from boy scouts to the school play or church children's choir. Mark had like NO FRIENDS EVER.

Yeah, whether its the writers or producers they get so into an idea that they don't bother to explain how it happens. Like Mark suddenly going Goth. They start it and then don't bother to explain why or do anything. Then give him a best friend which is great. But Ronnie barely says anything. How did he and Mark even become friends? We don't see them talking or anything. Does Ronnie only say a couple words to Mark? If so how are they friends? Does Mark just talk and Ronnie doesn't? Does Ronnie go along with whatever Mark wants to do. 

Brad like Jason makes more sense to me then Mark and Ronnie. To Brad, Jason is cool. He does cool things, he throws cool parties, and offered to introduce him to girls. Jason's the cool high school guy Brad wants to be. Even after being caught by Tim about the test he was going to by but changing his mind. I can see why Brad is still friends with him. What doesn't make sense if Tim getting duped by him again. After the first incident Tim and Jill should have banned Jason from their house and told Brad not to be friends with him. I'm not surprised Brad would ignore the latter because he still saw Jason as cool. 

On 2/24/2020 at 5:29 AM, readster said:

Watching the Season 5 premiere this weekend, yep there was the switch of Jill to being more like Fred. Granted, Tim was trying to shove too much into the weekend for the Jill's cousin wedding. However, this proved so much about Jill's family. NONE of the boys want to see them, also apparently they see this family SO MUCH, no one can remember who is who. Plus, the cousin Judy who shows up in their room and is just SO DARN HAPPY to see them. Shows they barely have seen them, when her father has been dead for ten years. Also, NOTHING was stopping Jill from going with Tim and the boys to the outings. Half the time she didn't want to be the "other events" and was avoiding them half the time. Now, the ski jump is completely Tim's fault, but as he also points out, why didn't Jill just let go of the rope? Plus, later on NO ONE from Jill's parents to sisters are at the wedding. Apparently, Jill was a favorite, because she didn't want to invite anyone else. 

Yeah, that's when the switch came. Jill was better before then. Tim was right in the wedding episode Jill could have gone along and had fun with her family. Plus almost anyone who writes knows that when your blocked sitting in a room or her case hotel room trying to force the writing isn't going to happen. So many times the best thing you can do is go do something else, take your mind off and it usually end up getting inspired or the words start flowing. She's missing out on all the fun, plus good bonding time with her kids and your right most of the time it sounded like Jill didn't even want to go any of the events. I agree Tim shouldn't have tried to do everything. But there was still plenty of time to do a lot of activities and still make it to the wedding stuff. It is weird that no none from Jill's family goes to the family wedding. Also its kind of weird that no one else at the wedding was off fishing or anything else. Their all at the resort but none of them go fishing together? Go water skiing or swimming? Why have a wedding at a resort and not schedule some of the water activities together? 

20 hours ago, readster said:

I know, they were jumping around seasons, some great episodes and some, I would rather forget. Seeing the Chicago episode again, could Bud being any more inconsiderate. Same with the producer in Chicago: "We have to stop showing Michigan." Well, the show is BASED in Detroit, why do you think that is? Another thing, when you had episodes where Tim was acknowledging their new networks. Why didn't they decide to do episodes based on those stations? That would have made a whole lot more sense. Instead of: "Well, I hate that you just base your show in the Michigan area." I'm sure even when Bob Villa was doing both This Old House and Home Again, networks were going: "Hey you need to do more episodes based in states you will probably never visit." Especially, when the show DID do that. 

Yeah that makes no sense that Bud's annoyed when the show set in Detroit is too Michigan. Plus, the show even by that point had already done a lot of on location spots that showed other places and had a enough number of guest stars from sports, NASCAR, and other fields. You'd think with all the guest stars they had that tons of networks would be calling up wanting to air the show in their cities. Doing a show based on their new networks would make a lot of sense. Talk up the cities of those networks and show places from around town. Like Frasier tried to do when he got the Spokane.  If Bud wants them to do more things beyond Michigan then isn't that on him? Isn't his job to find networks for Tool Time? The meeting in Chicago was dumb and I really wish Tim had said something. There's no way that there would be only one weekend when they could have that meeting. Things come up all time and their businessmen they can always reschedule for another weekend or have them come to Detroit or Bud and Tim go meet them where ever they live. Binford did the same thing by insisting that Tim take the camping trip to show them using the Binford camping stuff when he already made plans with Jill.  It didn't have to be that weekend. They could have gone up for a half day or something and just "show" the Taylors using the stuff.

On 3/3/2020 at 5:43 PM, MikaelaArsenault said:

I finally found evidence that Taran Noah Smith appeared on a PBS show!

Capture-3.png

Capture.PNG

He appeared in the second episode of Season 1, which was called My Dog Has Fleas.

Really? I had no idea. 

On 3/7/2020 at 4:15 AM, MikaelaArsenault said:

Laff is having another marathon of the show on Sunday. What's interesting though is that they're mixing it up and showing episodes from Seasons 6, 8, 7, 3, and 4.

Really? I guess they just want to mix it up. 

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15 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

 

Yeah that makes no sense that Bud's annoyed when the show set in Detroit is too Michigan. Plus, the show even by that point had already done a lot of on location spots that showed other places and had a enough number of guest stars from sports, NASCAR, and other fields. You'd think with all the guest stars they had that tons of networks would be calling up wanting to air the show in their cities. Doing a show based on their new networks would make a lot of sense. Talk up the cities of those networks and show places from around town. Like Frasier tried to do when he got the Spokane.  If Bud wants them to do more things beyond Michigan then isn't that on him? Isn't his job to find networks for Tool Time? The meeting in Chicago was dumb and I really wish Tim had said something. There's no way that there would be only one weekend when they could have that meeting. Things come up all time and their businessmen they can always reschedule for another weekend or have them come to Detroit or Bud and Tim go meet them where ever they live. Binford did the same thing by insisting that Tim take the camping trip to show them using the Binford camping stuff when he already made plans with Jill.  It didn't have to be that weekend. They could have gone up for a half day or something and just "show" the Taylors using the stuff.

Really? I had no idea. 

Really? I guess they just want to mix it up. 

It also made no sense when the guy told him: "The Relationship comes first." I mean he was already telling Bud he had a plan with his wife, so why are you doing this on the weekend? Why not during the work week. Did he not go: "So, Bud are you and Tim married?" So, when they just have it where Bud's marriage just fell apart, well he seem to show pretty much, work came first and he just promised things, but never followed through. Doesn't sound like someone to tell Bineford to. Hell, even when John would guilt Tim into doing things for him in the first season. He didn't for one second go: "Well, you know the boys won't stay young forever, enjoy it." I mean, Al at times just threw himself at John during season 1 and John acted like Al was the biggest suck up or waste at times. I get he kept Al around to keep Tim alive, but at the same time, John could have you know, seen that Al wanted to keep the boss happy. Al wasn't married or really anything, and this was before Alma was: "I tell you to jump son and you ask how high." 

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On 3/10/2020 at 7:08 PM, readster said:

It also made no sense when the guy told him: "The Relationship comes first." I mean he was already telling Bud he had a plan with his wife, so why are you doing this on the weekend? Why not during the work week. Did he not go: "So, Bud are you and Tim married?" So, when they just have it where Bud's marriage just fell apart, well he seem to show pretty much, work came first and he just promised things, but never followed through. Doesn't sound like someone to tell Bineford to. Hell, even when John would guilt Tim into doing things for him in the first season. He didn't for one second go: "Well, you know the boys won't stay young forever, enjoy it." I mean, Al at times just threw himself at John during season 1 and John acted like Al was the biggest suck up or waste at times. I get he kept Al around to keep Tim alive, but at the same time, John could have you know, seen that Al wanted to keep the boss happy. Al wasn't married or really anything, and this was before Alma was: "I tell you to jump son and you ask how high." 

Good question why didn't they just do it during the week? There's no reason they couldn't have done that. Having Tim realize Bud was never going to follow through on anything he promised is something I really wish happened. I know its probably more of them forgetting what Bud did before but you think back to the first episode with Bud. Bud talked about his business, how successful he became but that he loved tools and that he hoped to get back into it. Considering it never happened and Bud proved to be a terrible businessman and never keep any of his promise, that was a snow job. To get Tim on his side, keep him in line, and less likely to balk or quit. Tim obvious loves tools and was close to the last boss, and had been worried about the new boss. Hearing the new owner of Binford had a first love of tools and would listen to his ideas was exactly what he wanted to hear. Despite that it never happened Tim never once seemed to realize it was never going to happen or that Bud was a bad boss. He kept clinging to the promises Bud made. 

Binford guilting Tim makes a lot more sense then Bud. Binford was like a father to him and did so much for him. Helping him and Jill get the house, and picking him for Tool Time. Even though he started out trying John knew exactly what to say to guilt him into saying no. Even though they really could have just taken the kids up for an afternoon and faked it. He seemed mostly annoyed by Al. I'm not sure why. Maybe he just didn't like Al's sucking up or maybe not like him. He probably didn't fire him because he was so popular with fans along with keeping Tim alive. 

I don't mind Al sucking up in the beginning of the series. By that point he really didn't have much confidence, insecure, and kind of desperate for people to like him so it made sense. But it should have gone away along with him being a momma's boy as he became more confident, had friends and interests. 

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5 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Good question why didn't they just do it during the week? There's no reason they couldn't have done that. Having Tim realize Bud was never going to follow through on anything he promised is something I really wish happened. I know its probably more of them forgetting what Bud did before but you think back to the first episode with Bud. Bud talked about his business, how successful he became but that he loved tools and that he hoped to get back into it. Considering it never happened and Bud proved to be a terrible businessman and never keep any of his promise, that was a snow job. To get Tim on his side, keep him in line, and less likely to balk or quit. Tim obvious loves tools and was close to the last boss, and had been worried about the new boss. Hearing the new owner of Binford had a first love of tools and would listen to his ideas was exactly what he wanted to hear. Despite that it never happened Tim never once seemed to realize it was never going to happen or that Bud was a bad boss. He kept clinging to the promises Bud made. 

Binford guilting Tim makes a lot more sense then Bud. Binford was like a father to him and did so much for him. Helping him and Jill get the house, and picking him for Tool Time. Even though he started out trying John knew exactly what to say to guilt him into saying no. Even though they really could have just taken the kids up for an afternoon and faked it. He seemed mostly annoyed by Al. I'm not sure why. Maybe he just didn't like Al's sucking up or maybe not like him. He probably didn't fire him because he was so popular with fans along with keeping Tim alive. 

I don't mind Al sucking up in the beginning of the series. By that point he really didn't have much confidence, insecure, and kind of desperate for people to like him so it made sense. But it should have gone away along with him being a momma's boy as he became more confident, had friends and interests. 

 

 

You do have to wonder if the writers didn't get into their heads of killing John off, what they would have done with Tool Time. It wasn't like Noble who played John was having health issues or really that busy. He was acting in various projects, but the same can be said with Bud with Charles Robinson bouncing between series after barely being on two years on the show. I think the writers just felt it made more sense to go from a supportive and "normal" boss. To one who thinks he was all that a bag of chips and honestly, Bud came off as a hack, who I was surprised lasted in the business world as long as he did.

  I think that was another classic example of not knowing what to do with a character and writing by the seat of your pants. I think possibly, if Robinson wouldn't have been bouncing between ABC, CBS and NBC from 96-00, maybe they would have been more constant with his character, but just like Benny, we were just to think this was how the character was and people just accepted them. Even though, they are lucking they weren't left for dead at some point.

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On 3/12/2020 at 5:17 AM, readster said:

 

 

You do have to wonder if the writers didn't get into their heads of killing John off, what they would have done with Tool Time. It wasn't like Noble who played John was having health issues or really that busy. He was acting in various projects, but the same can be said with Bud with Charles Robinson bouncing between series after barely being on two years on the show. I think the writers just felt it made more sense to go from a supportive and "normal" boss. To one who thinks he was all that a bag of chips and honestly, Bud came off as a hack, who I was surprised lasted in the business world as long as he did.

There really wasn't a need to kill him off. It would have been great to see more of Tim and John's relationship since he seemed like a second dad to Tim but also Jill. She mentioned how much John did for them and what if any relationship the boys had with him. I don't know if they had a plan or not to kill him off. Its hard to tell. They brought Bud in who was suppose to be all business. That could have created conflict but it never really did. All they ended up doing was turning Tim into a yes man and Al continued to suck up. Then there are other times where they acted like Tim was the boss. Either they couldn't get Charles Robinson back or they forgot. Like Marty and Jill both asking why Al didn't have a parking space when that's Bud's decision not Tim's. Or the Swedes episode where that moron waited until that day to tell Tim Andretti couldn't make it and acted like it was Tim's fault everything went wrong on the show. Or insisting Tim go with him to Chicago that weekend for a meeting when it could have been any other time. 

 

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  I think that was another classic example of not knowing what to do with a character and writing by the seat of your pants. 

It probably was. I've mentioned in other threads that so many shows then and now don't plan things out. Crime shows with a long murderer arc or trying to solve who killed the detective's wife or mother, etc. they don't ever sit down and plot out the entire thing. They just come up with something every season and most of the time they don't even seem to remember what they written before. Same with the characters who will eventually end up together. HI seemed to not do that either. They killed off John Binford and then didn't do much with it. Bud came in but he kept coming and going. Same when they killed off Fred. Why did they do that? The last episode we saw Fred, Jill had finally admitted that they all kept things from him. We could have seen Fred trying to handle his family being more honest with him and him trying to do better. Heck he could have had a moment when he realized how much he missed out because he was the type of person who his family had to keep things from to keep the peace. We never see it happened and even in the episode he dies. Jill still has to lie because she can't tell him she's tried and ask if he could visit another time or even make plans for another time.  In the end they decide to with Fred never changing and then the Christmas episode when we find out he's even more of a jerk that Lillian gave up so many things she liked to do because he didn't.  Same with Al, we never got to see him full stand up to his mother instead they killed her off. 

They really liked throwing things out and not doing anything with them. Mark's Goth phase got old because they didn't do anything with it. We never found out why he turned Goth.  Was it just to join a group, did he have issues which could have been tied back to his grandpa's sudden death, or did he really like and find a group of friends. Tim's midlife crisis and nothing happened and same with Randy suddenly questioning everything. We should have seen Jill mourning and having a hard time with the loss and worrying about her mother. We could have seen the fall out of Fred's death throughout season seven. By the end of the season have each one coming to terms with the death. They had the pieces there and it would have made so much sense but then they don't even seem to have seen the possibility. 

Other times they make dumb decisions like Al and IIene breaking up. After watching them build a relationship for two seasons they ended it. Why? So we can watch Al do nothing until season eight? They took away the potential for good storylines. Al standing up with his mother, Al and IIrene as newlyweds, and becoming parents for the first time. Maybe there's fertility problems due to them being in their late 30s, maybe Al wants a kid right away because he remembers his father too old to do anything with him but IIene wants to wait. 

 

 

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I think possibly, if Robinson wouldn't have been bouncing between ABC, CBS and NBC from 96-00, maybe they would have been more constant with his character, but just like Benny, we were just to think this was how the character was and people just accepted them. Even though, they are lucking they weren't left for dead at some point.

This I think was a mistake. As much as I love Charles Robinson they should have hired him rather then having him show up every once in awhile or found another actor who was free to do so. They kept having Bud come and go and forgetting what they wrote for him. In the first episode he was a successful businessman but tools were his first love making it seem like he was going to soften over time. Then he came and went. Keeps making dumb business decisions. He had a wife who he apparently never bothered to inform her brother embezzled from the company, and she actually thought was a sore loser. Later their divorced and he's devastated. 

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10 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

It probably was. I've mentioned in other threads that so many shows then and now don't plan things out. Crime shows with a long murderer arc or trying to solve who killed the detective's wife or mother, etc. they don't ever sit down and plot out the entire thing. They just come up with something every season and most of the time they don't even seem to remember what they written before. Same with the characters who will eventually end up together. HI seemed to not do that either. They killed off John Binford and then didn't do much with it. Bud came in but he kept coming and going. Same when they killed off Fred. 

. We could have seen the fall out of Fred's death throughout season seven. By the end of the season have each one coming to terms with the death. They had the pieces there and it would have made so much sense but then they don't even seem to have seen the possibility. 

Other times they make dumb decisions like Al and IIene breaking up. After watching them build a relationship for two seasons they ended it. Why? So we can watch Al do nothing until season eight? They took away the potential for good storylines. Al standing up with his mother, Al and IIrene as newlyweds, and becoming parents for the first time. Maybe there's fertility problems due to them being in their late 30s, maybe Al wants a kid right away because he remembers his father too old to do anything with him but IIene wants to wait. 

They kept having Bud come and go and forgetting what they wrote for him. In the first episode he was a successful businessman but tools were his first love making it seem like he was going to soften over time. Then he came and went. Keeps making dumb business decisions. He had a wife who he apparently never bothered to inform her brother embezzled from the company, and she actually thought was a sore loser. Later their divorced and he's devastated. 

Yeah, this is when HI really started showing it's problems. They just threw something out and was: "Let's where it goes." Yet, they had shown they really couldn't write it at ALL. Even after being hit over the head it wasn't working, or they were so inconsistent who was in the writing room at the time. That's the problem with TV shows even now, they either don't talk, take notes or just throw something out there and hope it will "fix itself". Yet, they keep doing it. Something I do enjoy about streaming shows now, they have a set number of episodes and really, really, really have to plan things out. 

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6 hours ago, readster said:

Yeah, this is when HI really started showing it's problems. They just threw something out and was: "Let's where it goes." Yet, they had shown they really couldn't write it at ALL. Even after being hit over the head it wasn't working, or they were so inconsistent who was in the writing room at the time. That's the problem with TV shows even now, they either don't talk, take notes or just throw something out there and hope it will "fix itself". Yet, they keep doing it. Something I do enjoy about streaming shows now, they have a set number of episodes and really, really, really have to plan things out. 

Yeah, so many shows could really benefit from their writers planning things out even sitcoms. They don't and that really ends up being a problem. Things end up weird or don't make sense. Or fans get tired of it. HI got into the habit of just throwing things out and never seem to realize it never worked. That's what made the last few years bad and boring. Mark's Goth phase didn't fail because it was a bad storyline it failed because they didn't do anything with it. They had him dress in black for awhile and then they got tired of it. Fans got tired of it because nothing happened. It never occurred to them to figure it out? To even answer why he suddenly became Goth or do something with it. I do love shows that are planned out or at least going in a direction. While I hated the last season of LOST the show suffered from that in season two but got better when the writers realized that and started working towards something.  

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3 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Yeah, so many shows could really benefit from their writers planning things out even sitcoms. They don't and that really ends up being a problem. Things end up weird or don't make sense. Or fans get tired of it. HI got into the habit of just throwing things out and never seem to realize it never worked. That's what made the last few years bad and boring. Mark's Goth phase didn't fail because it was a bad storyline it failed because they didn't do anything with it. They had him dress in black for awhile and then they got tired of it. Fans got tired of it because nothing happened. It never occurred to them to figure it out? To even answer why he suddenly became Goth or do something with it. I do love shows that are planned out or at least going in a direction. While I hated the last season of LOST the show suffered from that in season two but got better when the writers realized that and started working towards something.  

That's also the problem HI did do, or they were so "focused" on certain story aspects. I mean everyone from Patricia Richardson to the writers were TIRED of Jill being in school. The first couple of years made sense, but really, unlike people in you know "real life" Jill really didn't have reasons to take as long as she did to finish up her degree. Of course, the writers NEVER did any research on how long it takes to get a PhD in physiological therapy. Jill honestly should have been done in season 7, but again, the writers never knew if Jill was getting an advanced degree or doctorate and it just bounced back and forth from season 6-8. Same with building things up with Al, hell they even spun off Soul Man and introduced Father Mike and that Al and his family did have focus on church activities, but after they broke Ilene and him up. Where did that go? Nowhere. 

   If I look back, the characters that had the most growth and arc were Brad and Randy. even with JTT leaving the show in season 8 and all the issues that went on between him, his agent, manager and Tim Allen at the time. Randy's story made sense EXCEPT for questioning everything. They threw it out there and then it was just: "Well JTT is leaving the show, so just chuck in." I mean, they had it where everyone on the show got selfish and fall on their bad habits to the T. However, it was never as bad as say Two and a Half Men, that really fell on ego, bad writing and personal problems with the actors that lead to that show being unwatchable. 

  HI was a better sitcom and had characters you cared about, but sadly like many shows, was on to the point the writers and producers just didn't know where to go as it aged.   

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On 3/16/2020 at 6:10 AM, readster said:

That's also the problem HI did do, or they were so "focused" on certain story aspects. I mean everyone from Patricia Richardson to the writers were TIRED of Jill being in school. The first couple of years made sense, but really, unlike people in you know "real life" Jill really didn't have reasons to take as long as she did to finish up her degree. Of course, the writers NEVER did any research on how long it takes to get a PhD in physiological therapy. Jill honestly should have been done in season 7, but again, the writers never knew if Jill was getting an advanced degree or doctorate and it just bounced back and forth from season 6-8. Same with building things up with Al, hell they even spun off Soul Man and introduced Father Mike and that Al and his family did have focus on church activities, but after they broke Ilene and him up. Where did that go? Nowhere.   

Yes, even in the episode she decides to go back to school she says it wouldn't have to be that long she didn't even need to take that many undergrad classes. Then keep her in school the next five seasons. At that point she's only a couple years off from becoming an actual doctor. They were tired of it but never though to graduate her and show her starting her career? She could have worked at a couple different places before starting her own practice. That would have given them more to work with and given Jill something to do. Same with marrying Al off. 

 

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 If I look back, the characters that had the most growth and arc were Brad and Randy. even with JTT leaving the show in season 8 and all the issues that went on between him, his agent, manager and Tim Allen at the time. Randy's story made sense EXCEPT for questioning everything. They threw it out there and then it was just: "Well JTT is leaving the show, so just chuck in."

 

Yes, those two that had the most growth. Brad eventually became the jock and bad student, Randy the good student and newspaper. Its not too far off to see Randy would ended up getting into causes since he was interested in writing. But it would have been nice to learn what got him started.

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I mean, they had it where everyone on the show got selfish and fall on their bad habits to the T. However, it was never as bad as say Two and a Half Men, that really fell on ego, bad writing and personal problems with the actors that lead to that show being unwatchable. 

  HI was a better sitcom and had characters you cared about, but sadly like many shows, was on to the point the writers and producers just didn't know where to go as it aged. 

 

Yeah, it didn't get as bad as other shows did. But everyone got selfish and became all about their worse traits which always stinks. You always hope that it goes the other way. That the characters grow and over come their worse traits.  

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15 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Yes, even in the episode she decides to go back to school she says it wouldn't have to be that long she didn't even need to take that many undergrad classes. Then keep her in school the next five seasons. At that point she's only a couple years off from becoming an actual doctor. They were tired of it but never though to graduate her and show her starting her career? She could have worked at a couple different places before starting her own practice. That would have given them more to work with and given Jill something to do. Same with marrying Al off. 

I know, it was like the writers were "too afraid" to try branch out in these ideas. All of a sudden it was either they wanted to write with what they were "comfortable with" Jill is in school all the time. Or were: "We can't write another character married and thinking about kids, chuck it!" It also sad that the writers when trying to expand on other characters like: Harry, Marty, Heidi, even Benny showed us very selfish people that you just wondered how they were still alive or where someone didn't kick their ass at some point.

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14 minutes ago, readster said:

I know, it was like the writers were "too afraid" to try branch out in these ideas. All of a sudden it was either they wanted to write with what they were "comfortable with" Jill is in school all the time. Or were: "We can't write another character married and thinking about kids, chuck it!" It also sad that the writers when trying to expand on other characters like: Harry, Marty, Heidi, even Benny showed us very selfish people that you just wondered how they were still alive or where someone didn't kick their ass at some point.

It really was. They didn't even seem to realize they were shooting themselves in the foot repeatedly when it came to stories. They kept Jill in college forever, Al unmarried and never bothered to give Mark a personality or hobbies but then seem to realize they had no story so the expanded on Harry, Marty, Heidi and Benny while at the same time making Marty and Benny crappy people who refused to grow up and get a job and Harry married to someone who yelled constantly. Did anyone really care about Benny or Delores? I got sick of his mooching off everyone pretty quick and same with Delores yelling at everyone. They gave Heidi a kid, then split her and her husband up and then put them back together. That actually could have been interesting except we never actually saw it. We find out Heidi and her husband separated in the episode she and Al start hanging out more. But then its over and their back together. Until season eight when oops Scott had an affair but that's only dealt with in that one episode and at the end Heidi says their going to work it out. Why not spread that out a few more episodes? Once again they threw something out but didn't want to actually do anything with it or deal with it. 

Even with Wilson they were too safe. They give him a girlfriend who seemed nice and they had a lot in common only for Judith to disappear. Then try to give him "family" by having his niece Willow stay with him who was cool but she soon left for another gig. They could have married him off to Judith and he would have had family. But nope. Once again dropped a storyline that actually could have been interesting and given them more material for nothing. 

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2 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

It really was. They didn't even seem to realize they were shooting themselves in the foot repeatedly when it came to stories. They kept Jill in college forever, Al unmarried and never bothered to give Mark a personality or hobbies but then seem to realize they had no story so the expanded on Harry, Marty, Heidi and Benny while at the same time making Marty and Benny crappy people who refused to grow up and get a job and Harry married to someone who yelled constantly. Did anyone really care about Benny or Delores? I got sick of his mooching off everyone pretty quick and same with Delores yelling at everyone. They gave Heidi a kid, then split her and her husband up and then put them back together. That actually could have been interesting except we never actually saw it. We find out Heidi and her husband separated in the episode she and Al start hanging out more. But then its over and their back together. Until season eight when oops Scott had an affair but that's only dealt with in that one episode and at the end Heidi says their going to work it out. Why not spread that out a few more episodes? Once again they threw something out but didn't want to actually do anything with it or deal with it. 

Even with Wilson they were too safe. They give him a girlfriend who seemed nice and they had a lot in common only for Judith to disappear. Then try to give him "family" by having his niece Willow stay with him who was cool but she soon left for another gig. They could have married him off to Judith and he would have had family. But nope. Once again dropped a storyline that actually could have been interesting and given them more material for nothing. 

That's exactly right. They had all this potential stories and then then they just threw it out or didn't want to expand on it and the excuse was: "Oh, that will change the character." or "Well, then we have to pay someone another salary." Because everyone was just CLAMORING for more Benny the mooch, the man-child Marty, the constant: "I hate everything" Deloris. Heidi is more than just hot and attractive or turning Wilson into: "I don't know how a tooth brush works." 

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On 3/19/2020 at 8:56 AM, readster said:

That's exactly right. They had all this potential stories and then then they just threw it out or didn't want to expand on it and the excuse was: "Oh, that will change the character." or "Well, then we have to pay someone another salary." Because everyone was just CLAMORING for more Benny the mooch, the man-child Marty, the constant: "I hate everything" Deloris. Heidi is more than just hot and attractive or turning Wilson into: "I don't know how a tooth brush works." 

That's exactly what they did. And that's exactly what didn't work. That's what lead the later seasons being so bad and at the same time boring. Had they actually used the material they did have who knows? Things could have been different. It would have been more interesting watching Al and IIene as newlyweds and having a kid then watching Marty keep losing jobs and complaining about it while Al does nothing. Watching Jill trying to start her career, seeing patients and dealing with being back to work after not working for so many years would have been more interesting then Jill sitting around complaining about classes, thesis or whatever and attempting to diagnose people without problems. Giving Mark friends and his first girlfriend would have been more interesting them him wearing black for a few episodes and then stop. I know its common in shows but it does stinks the last couple years especially the last year is when you want to see how far each character has come since the first season. Even something simple like Monk checking his stove before he leaves to meet with a client. 

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8 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

That's exactly what they did. And that's exactly what didn't work. That's what lead the later seasons being so bad and at the same time boring. Had they actually used the material they did have who knows? Things could have been different. It would have been more interesting watching Al and IIene as newlyweds and having a kid then watching Marty keep losing jobs and complaining about it while Al does nothing. Watching Jill trying to start her career, seeing patients and dealing with being back to work after not working for so many years would have been more interesting then Jill sitting around complaining about classes, thesis or whatever and attempting to diagnose people without problems. Giving Mark friends and his first girlfriend would have been more interesting them him wearing black for a few episodes and then stop. I know its common in shows but it does stinks the last couple years especially the last year is when you want to see how far each character has come since the first season. Even something simple like Monk checking his stove before he leaves to meet with a client. 

The Thanksgiving Episode aired with Al and Ilene and the very first appearance of Benny before he was Benny. It's just so sad seeing how Al and Ilene were and then for them to ruin in the way they did two years later. I also like the fact that Jill and Tim were planning on just spending time with their immediate family and invited Al and Ilene over and Wilson had other plans. It was nice, and didn't feel like it was a big deal outside of Tim's Christmas Card photo that went out of control very fast. Still trying to figure out how the snow machine magically turned into a mobile piece and then drove through their patio doors. I would have made more sense if it just overloaded and blew it backwards. Even if Tim rewired it to create more snow, it wasn't going to magically take off like a car. Some of Tim's rewiring really never made sense. I mean, you get the motorized saw horse or using a more powerful device on a smaller job. However, several times, it seemed that Tim's rewiring magically transformed machines to do things that weren't really possible. Still trying to figure out the helicopter that magically opened up the patio doors and was out to get Tim when he fixed it to just attack the woodpecker on their roof. 

I think the writers as the show went on got so overboard on "what will Tim screw up next" it was to the point you waiting for the house to come to life and then go destroy downtown Detroit. 

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On 3/21/2020 at 3:51 PM, readster said:

The Thanksgiving Episode aired with Al and Ilene and the very first appearance of Benny before he was Benny. It's just so sad seeing how Al and Ilene were and then for them to ruin in the way they did two years later. I also like the fact that Jill and Tim were planning on just spending time with their immediate family and invited Al and Ilene over and Wilson had other plans. It was nice, and didn't feel like it was a big deal outside of Tim's Christmas Card photo that went out of control very fast. 

It really was. We got to see the two come together and fall in love. They really seemed perfect for each other. They had the same humor. They both loved mini golf and other activities and whacky t-shirts. The Christmas episode where Al finally learns to put IIene first plus she was thinking of breaking up with Al at one point because she thought he'd never propose and it turned out he was getting ready too. I wish we got to see the two marry.  I liked that Thanksgiving episode too. I reminded me of a few of my family when our relatives had other plans or couldn't afford the trip to visit so we invited a few friends over for Thanksgiving. It was just as fun. 
 

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Still trying to figure out how the snow machine magically turned into a mobile piece and then drove through their patio doors. I would have made more sense if it just overloaded and blew it backwards. Even if Tim rewired it to create more snow, it wasn't going to magically take off like a car. Some of Tim's rewiring really never made sense. I mean, you get the motorized saw horse or using a more powerful device on a smaller job. However, several times, it seemed that Tim's rewiring magically transformed machines to do things that weren't really possible. Still trying to figure out the helicopter that magically opened up the patio doors and was out to get Tim when he fixed it to just attack the woodpecker on their roof. 

 

Yeah most of those mess ups don't make sense. Even with Tim's re-wiring couldn't have made things mobile when all he did was add more power. Or even with jet fuel it wouldn't put the grill in orbit. With the helicopter I really thought that we would see Jill or Randy somewhere with the remote control the first time I saw it to prank Tim. But nope.

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I think the writers as the show went on got so overboard on "what will Tim screw up next" it was to the point you waiting for the house to come to life and then go destroy downtown Detroit. 

I guess Detroit's lucky he moved before he was able to do just that.

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4 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:


 

Yeah most of those mess ups don't make sense. Even with Tim's re-wiring couldn't have made things mobile when all he did was add more power. Or even with jet fuel it wouldn't put the grill in orbit. With the helicopter I really thought that we would see Jill or Randy somewhere with the remote control the first time I saw it to prank Tim. But nope.

I guess Detroit's lucky he moved before he was able to do just that.

It's funny too, Tim re-wired the washing machine in season 1 to take care of all the needed detergents that lasted the run of the show. Made a super fast garbage disposal that could chop up wood. A reverse laundry shoot that worked extremely well, to even a walk in closet I wanted to have. Yet, Tim would re-wire things where it was like Rise of the Machines. Let's not forget the 21 Nail Gun salute that for some reason was on a 360 swivel that couldn't stop firing nails. Tim having no idea how to add more power to a computer and destroying just Zombie Sneak Attack, but nothing else. A Snow Man so bright it melted itself and could be seen around the city. Yet, never effect their electric bill? 

Then you add in that Tim knew how drive heavy duty equipment, but then can't just hit the breaks on things to make them stop. 

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47 minutes ago, readster said:

It's funny too, Tim re-wired the washing machine in season 1 to take care of all the needed detergents that lasted the run of the show. Made a super fast garbage disposal that could chop up wood. A reverse laundry shoot that worked extremely well, to even a walk in closet I wanted to have. Yet, Tim would re-wire things where it was like Rise of the Machines. Let's not forget the 21 Nail Gun salute that for some reason was on a 360 swivel that couldn't stop firing nails. Tim having no idea how to add more power to a computer and destroying just Zombie Sneak Attack, but nothing else. A Snow Man so bright it melted itself and could be seen around the city. Yet, never effect their electric bill? 

Then you add in that Tim knew how drive heavy duty equipment, but then can't just hit the breaks on things to make them stop. 

Well, the ones that did seem to go bad the most were times when Tim got so excited that he didn't pay attention to what he was doing. When he did pay attention like with the washer, not just the reverse garbage disposal but all of Randy's new room was well done and held up, the walk in closet, and the gazebo. You'd think at some point he would have realized that and when trying to improve other things to just improve it a little. All he wanted the snow machine to do was put out more snow. It shouldn't have been that hard to do. But because he's Tim he always has to go over board. At the same time he never stopped to think whether things actually needed to be improved. Even his old shop teacher pointed that out to him and how he was always trying to do that. Which is true. You'd think given how many things went wrong and how much they'd have to pay to repair windows, doors, and everything else he'd start to learn that less. How many of his mess ups came from controllers that were supposedly brand new. His 21 gun salute the controller messed up. Of course he also never though to realize it didn't need to be on a turn table. 

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45 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

Well, the ones that did seem to go bad the most were times when Tim got so excited that he didn't pay attention to what he was doing. When he did pay attention like with the washer, not just the reverse garbage disposal but all of Randy's new room was well done and held up, the walk in closet, and the gazebo. You'd think at some point he would have realized that and when trying to improve other things to just improve it a little. All he wanted the snow machine to do was put out more snow. It shouldn't have been that hard to do. But because he's Tim he always has to go over board. At the same time he never stopped to think whether things actually needed to be improved. Even his old shop teacher pointed that out to him and how he was always trying to do that. Which is true. You'd think given how many things went wrong and how much they'd have to pay to repair windows, doors, and everything else he'd start to learn that less. How many of his mess ups came from controllers that were supposedly brand new. His 21 gun salute the controller messed up. Of course he also never though to realize it didn't need to be on a turn table. 

Right, or when he was looking for Jill's present and revealed to Wilson that he buried things he didn't want Jill to find he had "improved" on. I mean a curling iron, thermostat and then finally a Crock Pot? Why did those need to be improved on? Curling Irons especially in the late 90s were turning into fire hazards from having "too much power". The thermostat you can figure out, he wanted it to either get cooler faster or hotter in the house. As for the crock pot? That makes no sense, they are design to be slow to cook meals to be ready when you got home. Now, the Insta Pot craze the past two years. OK, but Tim re-wiring some stuff never made sense, just like if a woman showed she knew things more than Tim, he feel butt hurt to the point he had to embarrass them. Why?

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Some trivia:

. Tim Allen revealed on a talk show that he wanted the finale of the show to set up the reveal that Wilson was a ghost.

. The producers once approached Hillary Clinton about guest starring on an episode of the show.

. Ashley Judd was originally cast as the Tool Girl, which was supposed to be a much bigger role (a college student majoring in psychology who acted as a stand-in for Jill on the Tool Time set), but she pulled out only days before the pilot was shot.

. Frances Fisher, then-girlfriend of Clint Eastwood, was originally cast as Jill and the pilot was filmed with her in the role. Frances was known as a dramatic actor and struggled with comedic acting and lacked chemistry with Tim Allen and the audience and would be replaced with Patricia Richardson.

. The episode "The Longest Day", where it's believed Randy might have cancer, almost didn't air, as ABC felt cancer was too serious or controversial of a topic to feature in a sitcom.

. Al was originally just a placeholder character for another named Glenn to be played by Stephen Tobolowsky. Tobolowsky was unavailable to shoot the pilot so Richard Karn was brought in as Al to be a fill in character. When Stephen Tobolowsky was still unavailable once the series was picked up Tim Allen urged the producers to keep Karn on as he liked the way they worked together. They agreed and Tobolowsky was let go and Karn was kept on permanently.

. A very special episode about drunk driving was planned, but then Tim Allen got arrested for DUI and it was scrapped out of fear of being seen as hypocritical.

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1 minute ago, BradyBunchFan said:

Some trivia:

. Tim Allen revealed on a talk show that he wanted the finale of the show to set up the reveal that Wilson was a ghost.

. Al was originally just a placeholder character for another named Glenn to be played by Stephen Tobolowsky. Tobolowsky was unavailable to shoot the pilot so Richard Karn was brought in as Al to be a fill in character. When Stephen Tobolowsky was still unavailable once the series was picked up Tim Allen urged the producers to keep Karn on as he liked the way they worked together. They agreed and Tobolowsky was let go and Karn was kept on permanently.

 

I'm glad the ghost thing didn't happen, and I can't imagine the show without Al.

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56 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I'm glad the ghost thing didn't happen, and I can't imagine the show without Al.

There was also suppose to be some reveal on WHY Tim was never made an executive producer of Tool Time, but it never came out as a logical explaination. Plus, Willow was dropped from the show because the writers were unable to write any material from her after her initial episodes. They couldn't figure out where to take a character who flaked herself through life could go. 

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4 hours ago, readster said:

There was also suppose to be some reveal on WHY Tim was never made an executive producer of Tool Time, but it never came out as a logical explaination. Plus, Willow was dropped from the show because the writers were unable to write any material from her after her initial episodes. They couldn't figure out where to take a character who flaked herself through life could go. 

Too bad. I wanted to know why he wasn't made executive producer. It really seems like the writers or producers have that problem a lot with this show. They couldn't think of anything else to do with Willow but give us endless scenes of Marty losing jobs and Benny mooching off everyone. They had a hard time coming up with stuff for Jill to do. They dropped Judith and then give Wilson Willow who disappears, they break up Al and IIene and then give him nothing to do, they have three characters suddenly acting differently in season seven but never once think to tie it back to Fred's death, and they don't even think to give us Jill and Brad's graduation. 

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6 hours ago, BradyBunchFan said:

Some trivia:

. Tim Allen revealed on a talk show that he wanted the finale of the show to set up the reveal that Wilson was a ghost.

. The producers once approached Hillary Clinton about guest starring on an episode of the show.

. Ashley Judd was originally cast as the Tool Girl, which was supposed to be a much bigger role (a college student majoring in psychology who acted as a stand-in for Jill on the Tool Time set), but she pulled out only days before the pilot was shot.

. Frances Fisher, then-girlfriend of Clint Eastwood, was originally cast as Jill and the pilot was filmed with her in the role. Frances was known as a dramatic actor and struggled with comedic acting and lacked chemistry with Tim Allen and the audience and would be replaced with Patricia Richardson.

. The episode "The Longest Day", where it's believed Randy might have cancer, almost didn't air, as ABC felt cancer was too serious or controversial of a topic to feature in a sitcom.

. Al was originally just a placeholder character for another named Glenn to be played by Stephen Tobolowsky. Tobolowsky was unavailable to shoot the pilot so Richard Karn was brought in as Al to be a fill in character. When Stephen Tobolowsky was still unavailable once the series was picked up Tim Allen urged the producers to keep Karn on as he liked the way they worked together. They agreed and Tobolowsky was let go and Karn was kept on permanently.

. A very special episode about drunk driving was planned, but then Tim Allen got arrested for DUI and it was scrapped out of fear of being seen as hypocritical.

I like Frances Fisher but I can't imagine her as Jill. I really don't think it would have worked. I do remember the Stephen Tobolowsky thing. I'm glad they kept Kern. But Stephen would have been interesting as Al. 

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33 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

Too bad. I wanted to know why he wasn't made executive producer. It really seems like the writers or producers have that problem a lot with this show. They couldn't think of anything else to do with Willow but give us endless scenes of Marty losing jobs and Benny mooching off everyone. They had a hard time coming up with stuff for Jill to do. They dropped Judith and then give Wilson Willow who disappears, they break up Al and IIene and then give him nothing to do, they have three characters suddenly acting differently in season seven but never once think to tie it back to Fred's death, and they don't even think to give us Jill and Brad's graduation. 

When Marty's twin girls came in, and the plots started focusing on Tim and Jill more and less of the boys, that’s when the show really started to go downhill.

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4 minutes ago, BradyBunchFan said:

When Marty's twin girls came in, and the plots started focusing on Tim and Jill more and less of the boys, that’s when the show really started to go downhill.

Right and Zachary Ty Bryan was planning on leaving the show and going to college after season 8, but was going to show up when he was home from school. Since he was going to school locally, he would have had part status if there would have been a season 9. The producers were really hoping that having the twin neices and Marty and moving Jeff and Carrie into more ongoing rolls was going to infuse the show to continued. They always planned on Al and Trudy getting married and Jill graduating and starting her practice in season 9. However, when they decided that Tim was going to be a much bigger raise than Patricia, that's when Tim Allen called it quits, because he didn't see it as fair. 

The way things were going, I highly doubted that Jonathan Taylor Thomas would have returned to the show since there were so many fights going on between JTT, the Producers, Tim Allen and JTT's agent/manager. Meaning they would have focused completely on freshman year Mark and the twins. I could have so seen the show's ratings tanking in season 9 if it would have happened. 

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10 minutes ago, readster said:

Right and Zachary Ty Bryan was planning on leaving the show and going to college after season 8, but was going to show up when he was home from school. Since he was going to school locally, he would have had part status if there would have been a season 9. The producers were really hoping that having the twin neices and Marty and moving Jeff and Carrie into more ongoing rolls was going to infuse the show to continued. They always planned on Al and Trudy getting married and Jill graduating and starting her practice in season 9. However, when they decided that Tim was going to be a much bigger raise than Patricia, that's when Tim Allen called it quits, because he didn't see it as fair. 

The way things were going, I highly doubted that Jonathan Taylor Thomas would have returned to the show since there were so many fights going on between JTT, the Producers, Tim Allen and JTT's agent/manager. Meaning they would have focused completely on freshman year Mark and the twins. I could have so seen the show's ratings tanking in season 9 if it would have happened. 

The show ended at the right time.

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3 hours ago, BradyBunchFan said:

The show ended at the right time.

Yeah, while we didn't see a season 9, it was pretty evident if the show didn't end in season 8, things would have dragged to where it got real sad. 

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3 hours ago, BradyBunchFan said:

When Marty's twin girls came in, and the plots started focusing on Tim and Jill more and less of the boys, that’s when the show really started to go downhill.

It really did. I've never been much of fan of Marty and season eight did him no favors.

3 hours ago, readster said:

Right and Zachary Ty Bryan was planning on leaving the show and going to college after season 8, but was going to show up when he was home from school. Since he was going to school locally, he would have had part status if there would have been a season 9. The producers were really hoping that having the twin neices and Marty and moving Jeff and Carrie into more ongoing rolls was going to infuse the show to continued. They always planned on Al and Trudy getting married and Jill graduating and starting her practice in season 9. However, when they decided that Tim was going to be a much bigger raise than Patricia, that's when Tim Allen called it quits, because he didn't see it as fair. 

The way things were going, I highly doubted that Jonathan Taylor Thomas would have returned to the show since there were so many fights going on between JTT, the Producers, Tim Allen and JTT's agent/manager. Meaning they would have focused completely on freshman year Mark and the twins. I could have so seen the show's ratings tanking in season 9 if it would have happened. 

 

3 hours ago, BradyBunchFan said:

The show ended at the right time.

 

24 minutes ago, readster said:

Yeah, while we didn't see a season 9, it was pretty evident if the show didn't end in season 8, things would have dragged to where it got real sad. 

As much as I dislike season eight its a good thing that was the last season. Season nine with no Randy and part time Brad wouldn't work. They didn't bother to develop Mark having him being the only kid still home just wouldn't have worked. Seven and eight weren't very good seasons. Its hard to imagine how season nine could have been better. I do think marrying off Al and graduating Jill sooner might have made the last seasons better or at least given them more to do. But I don't know.

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10 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

As much as I dislike season eight its a good thing that was the last season. Season nine with no Randy and part time Brad wouldn't work. They didn't bother to develop Mark having him being the only kid still home just wouldn't have worked. Seven and eight weren't very good seasons. Its hard to imagine how season nine could have been better. I do think marrying off Al and graduating Jill sooner might have made the last seasons better or at least given them more to do. But I don't know.

I agree, Jill was in this major run around for seasons 6-7. Especially after the talk show episode in season 7, I mean they should have graduated Jill that season. Instead they pulled it another FULL SEASON. Ditching Illene because the producers thought: "Married Al will stop storylines" proved to be utter crap. Guess they were also anti-Spider-Man marriage people too. 

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8 hours ago, BradyBunchFan said:

Up TV removed Home Improvement from their schedule again.

That stinks.

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On 8/1/2020 at 2:18 PM, andromeda331 said:

That stinks.

I know, LAFF is still going strong with their airing. 

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6 hours ago, readster said:

I know, LAFF is still going strong with their airing. 

At least we still have that.

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