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John Diggle: Brother In Arms


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I also find it interesting that JD & Lyla got divorced before, perhaps they had a similar issue as what is going on between J&O.

It would be interesting because during that Lyla/Oliver scene that I really liked in the crossover, it seemed that they had the same perspective on things, and on getting your hands dirty especially (not verbatim). Maybe because they both worked for Waller, indeed.

Diggle only said that he and Lyla didn't figure out how to stay married when they weren't in the middle of a war, IIRC, but it leaves the door open for many interpretations. Maybe the war never truly stopped for Lyla?

It would be a nice shout-out to one of the few spontaneous scenes that clicked for me, in S3.

Edited by Happy Harpy
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Didn't Lyla say that he got lost in his grief and anger over losing Andy and that the man she loved only found balance again when he found a brother in Oliver?  I guess that explains his spiral away from being the guy we know and love. 

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But he has Sara now and five or six years more maturity.  When Andy died, he was having trouble adjusting to life after the war, making things go with Lyla, and then his baby brother was killed.  But now his relationship with Lyla is on better foundation and he's Daddy Diggle and he has a purpose in Star City.  He should be more stable now.

 

 

Lyla being more understanding is a bit jarring since Sara was left alone..but she doesn't know Oliver as well and thus doesn't trust him as much.

She seems to trust Oliver more than Diggle does but then she and Oliver had that bonding moment in the crossover last season where they agreed on the need to be Machiavellian in order to protect the city.

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But he has Sara now and five or six years more maturity.  When Andy died, he was having trouble adjusting to life after the war, making things go with Lyla, and then his baby brother was killed.  But now his relationship with Lyla is on better foundation and he's Daddy Diggle and he has a purpose in Star City.  He should be more stable now.

 

And he is, with Lyla and Sara.  He's found a way to keep his head on right with them, but not in all parts of his life. 

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The one thing I can appreciate about JohnPod is that his issues can be explained or rationalized by certain events like OQ's betrayal, Andy's death, discovering more about HIVE, and taking on more responsibility with TeamArrowless. SO as much as I hate not having the old reliable JD, I can hope that as some of these issues are resolved or dealt with - Dig will return to us. In s3, when the Pods took over there really was no rationale beyond plot & prop, so it was harder to watch & understand why you would jeopardize a character's growth & development for plot.

 

I am hopeful that JohnPod will lead to more character growth & development. I am also hopeful it will create a deeper relationship between OQ & JD & FS. As much as I hate JohnPod, I am hopeful that he will help the character of Dig in the long run. Whereas in s3 attack of the pods, all I could hope for was their disappearance and the disappearance of the characters that were requiring their propping & the plots that were pretzeling them.

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Tbh, my interest in Digg's story has waned from what I see happening. The same happened with Thea last year as she was the character I most looked forward to watching.

Perhaps they could've made John TELL his team immediately what's up concerning HIVE and his brother, and let that be a lesson to Mr Oliver Queen about keeping secrets and the advantages of having full information to base your strategy on.

Then again having Oliver be all-tell-all makes it redundant because he doesn't need an example anymore.

Eh. We'll see, I'm just bored of secrets.

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I'm still interested in Diggle's story with H.I.V.E. I'm invested in his character. But I do worry that having him keep secrets and be angry with Oliver (and Felicity by the looks of it, why I don't know) will put him in the 'Felicity' position of s3 where people turned against her for having human emotions.

 

Because Diggle does have every right to be mad at Oliver but already I see comments telling him he's a whiny baby and should just get over it. No. He doesn't have to get over anything. He feels deeply betrayed and for him, as a soldier, trust is paramount. It always has been. And Oliver betrayed that.

 

Now, I don't deny that this needs to stop soon because dragging it out any longer would really be contrived (gotta give him a reason to confide in others now, yeah I see you show I'm no fool) but seeing as we haven't really seen Oliver apologize or make much of an effort so far, why should Diggle be the first one to cave? He needs to meet Oliver halfway but Oliver needs to go that halfway first. Unless I missed something I've yet to see that.

 

As I said, I need them to be friends again soon because I did want Oliver and Felicity to help him in the search for why his brother was killed. This feels like a journey that should be had with the three of them seeing as they both learned about it in season 1. It feels like it should come full circle somehow. That's what I want to see. I do worry that I'm not gonna see it though because the show is doing everything to keep OTA apart. 

Edited by Angel12d
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Oh this in no way makes me turn against Diggle, but I'm tired of the story choices the writers make. Instead of something mature, they tend to go for the most drama.

Anyhoo, I'm excited to see what episode 3 has in store. Perhaps then Oliver will properly apologise. OG Team Arrow!

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Because Diggle does have every right to be mad at Oliver but already I see comments telling him he's a whiny baby and should just get over it. No. He doesn't have to get over anything. He feels deeply betrayed and for him, as a soldier, trust is paramount. It always has been. And Oliver betrayed that.

 

Now, I don't deny that this needs to stop soon because dragging it out any longer would really be contrived (gotta give him a reason to confide in others now, yeah I see you show I'm no fool) but seeing as we haven't really seen Oliver apologize or make much of an effort so far, why should Diggle be the first one to cave? He needs to meet Oliver halfway but Oliver needs to go that halfway first. Unless I missed something I've yet to see that.

I disagree with calling him a whiny baby but I do think that Oliver needs to stop apologizing.  He's apologized and explained enough, Felicity has supported Diggle (which makes it maddening that he's taking it out on her too) and as Irving Yalom said, you can't fix the past.

 

Arrow has a problem with storyline pacing.  Sometimes it's over before the story is properly told, and sometimes it drags endlessly (Raylicity, Ra's' obsession with Oliver).  I'd like Diggle's anger at Oliver and Felicity to be over within the next two episodes.

 

ETA:  It's been six months now. I don't think staying mad at Oliver is doing Diggle any good emotionally either.

Edited by statsgirl
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I disagree with calling him a whiny baby but I do think that Oliver needs to stop apologizing.  He's apologized and explained enough, Felicity has supported Diggle (which makes it maddening that he's taking it out on her too) and as Irving Yalom said, you can't fix the past.

 

Arrow has a problem with storyline pacing.  Sometimes it's over before the story is properly told, and sometimes it drags endlessly (Raylicity, Ra's' obsession with Oliver).  I'd like Diggle's anger at Oliver and Felicity to be over within the next two episodes.

 

ETA:  It's been six months now. I don't think staying mad at Oliver is doing Diggle any good emotionally either.

 

I know we're not meant to talk about what other people have said elsewhere on the internet but I've read the 'whiny baby' comment more than once about Diggle. 

 

Though I'm not sure if Oliver has apologized enough. I think we only saw it once. I suppose we're meant to assume that he's said sorry a lot and we just haven't seen it. That's fine, I guess. Maybe we'll see more of that in tonight's episode. If that's the case, then I think it's only healthy of Oliver to say enough is enough. Character growth on his part rather than dwelling on things. 

 

But I agree. I want this conflict resolved asap, or at least the thaw to begin. The show doesn't flow when the OTA dynamic is off kilter.

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I don't know how often Oliver has said he's sorry, at least once (twice?) but every interaction he's had with Diggle since 3x23 has shown that he knows Diggle is justifiably angry at him for what he did.

 

Wayne Dyer has a great line: "It's not the bite of the snake that kills you, it's the poison going through your system".  For his own sake, Diggle needs to resolve this.

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I'm still interested in Diggle's story with H.I.V.E. I'm invested in his character. But I do worry that having him keep secrets and be angry with Oliver (and Felicity by the looks of it, why I don't know) will put him in the 'Felicity' position of s3 where people turned against her for having human emotions.

 

Because Diggle does have every right to be mad at Oliver but already I see comments telling him he's a whiny baby and should just get over it. No. He doesn't have to get over anything. He feels deeply betrayed and for him, as a soldier, trust is paramount. It always has been. And Oliver betrayed that.

 

Now, I don't deny that this needs to stop soon because dragging it out any longer would really be contrived (gotta give him a reason to confide in others now, yeah I see you show I'm no fool) but seeing as we haven't really seen Oliver apologize or make much of an effort so far, why should Diggle be the first one to cave? He needs to meet Oliver halfway but Oliver needs to go that halfway first. Unless I missed something I've yet to see that.

 

As I said, I need them to be friends again soon because I did want Oliver and Felicity to help him in the search for why his brother was killed. This feels like a journey that should be had with the three of them seeing as they both learned about it in season 1. It feels like it should come full circle somehow. That's what I want to see. I do worry that I'm not gonna see it though because the show is doing everything to keep OTA apart. 

I fear that JD is the s3FS of s4. And we all suffered through how long the writers took to resolving that. I don't want it, but I am preparing myself for it to be a long & rough season for JD. And I feel the comments will only get worse. Sadly the essence of some of their complaints are true he has become whiny because the writers are forcing their melodrama again. The heart of the problem is that JD is justifiably angry, but he is holding onto it for too long and not even making an attempt to move past it. Maybe not forgive OQ, but certainly be in a better place so that his anger is not putting him or his team at risk. OQ has apologized, but I don't think he apologized for what JD is mad at him for.

 

We know they just need to have a real conversation and air their grievances - which means the writers will do everything possible to keep that from happening. They will tease us, but like s3 fear we will only get a few moments of longing glances, 1:1 interaction & loaded statements between JD & O/F. I really wish the writers would focus more on mature ways of handling the situation and save the melodrama for another portion of the cast. OTA is the lifeblood of the show, you can build up a new team around them i don't understand their constant need to rip them apart. Its about time they stop tearing away at the foundation of the show. One can't build additions onto a house that has a compromised foundation.

Edited by kismet
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I'm not sure whether he and Lyla were divorced or separated in the flashback last year. But Andy did mention her leaving him as far as I recall. On the other hand, Lyla told Oliver about John pushing her away after Andy's death. I'm pretty sure I'm not making this up.

The math doesn't add up at all, since this was five years prior to last season. Meaning 2008 or 2009. Neither of those is eight years ago. This is really elementary stuff. Why not just check and say six or seven?

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The thing that is most annoying about the whole mathematical fail is the line could have kept out a number and still packed the same emotional punch. Just say years or many years if you want to be dramatic. So if you're not gonna check the math, then don't include the number. Shame on the writers.

 

And I can't accept that the writers forgot about Andy's first appearance since they brought back the actor. It's shoddy prep work on the writers' part that they didn't do the math correctly or at least reference/review the last time the character was on the show. A simple review of the ep, would have proven their math wrong without needing even a piece of scrap paper to do the calculations.

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The flashbacks are always five years previous to the present day.  So the flashback of Oliver's return to Starling City took place 5 years before last season so 6 years ago now.  I think the 8 came up because it would have been 8 years ago that the Queen's Gambit sank.

 

DR wanted this actor for the role of Andy. Even if the producers forgot, he should have remembered.  He needs to own the role, all of it.

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Perhaps DR takes a small sliver of blame... but I'm putting 99% of the blame on the writers & TPTB. The scripts are sloppy, this is not the first (or sadly last) error, but this one feels the super obvious because the math is so simple.

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The flashbacks are always five years previous to the present day.  So the flashback of Oliver's return to Starling City took place 5 years before last season so 6 years ago now.  I think the 8 came up because it would have been 8 years ago that the Queen's Gambit sank.

 

DR wanted this actor for the role of Andy. Even if the producers forgot, he should have remembered.  He needs to own the role, all of it.

Andy couldn't have died anymore than 6 years ago and yeah, they really messed up, but nit pick.  Each year the flashback as a whole belongs to five years to the present year BUT the timeline in the flashbacks very often isn't week for a week.  Like the current flashbacks, Everything that has happened to Oliver on the island can't have taken more than a couple weeks and the last four episodes can't have been more than a few days.  Take Poppy to Cave, show guy she's dead.  Day one.  Dude finds Oliver's computer, accuses him of being a spy but Constantine runs off with Oliver and then Oliver shows Reiter the secret underground tunnel.  Day two.  Then Reiter immediately sent off a contingent of workers and not even a day later, Oliver kills Vlad, faces Reiter, whips guy I can never remember his name, and chit chats with Poppy.  Day 3-4? 

 

Maybe he took a week or two to first settle into the guard gig but since then not many days have gone by.

 

I only bring this up because while we saw FB Oliver in The Return in 2015, the timeline for the FB could easily have still Oliver briefly back in Starling in 2009.  Which at least once in recent weeks is when they said Andy died.  If the FB's are real time always five years behind the present, then The Return would have had to happen in 2010 and it's bad enough that this week they tried to say Andy died 8 years ago.  I'd like to believe that more effort and better math skills had gone into the storyline earlier.  

Edited by BkWurm1
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Oliver landed on Lian Yu 8 years ago.  Maybe that's the 8 years they were referring to.

 

But since there is no way he would have been working for Amanda Waller in his first two years, 6 years ago is the maximum time Andy could have been "dead".

 

I find it interesting that Diggle says that he "faked his own death". That's quite an assumption from someone who has been working for Oliver Queen for 5 years.  My mind to someone else shooting Andy and then reviving him but maybe Diggle has more information such as the body was never found?

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Oliver landed on Lian Yu 8 years ago.  Maybe that's the 8 years they were referring to.

 

But since there is no way he would have been working for Amanda Waller in his first two years, 6 years ago is the maximum time Andy could have been "dead".

 

I find it interesting that Diggle says that he "faked his own death". That's quite an assumption from someone who has been working for Oliver Queen for 5 years.  My mind to someone else shooting Andy and then reviving him but maybe Diggle has more information such as the body was never found?

The problem is that they showed Andy alive, working with Digg, in last year's flashback, meaning six years ago.  So by no calculation whatsoever did he die/appear to die/fake his death eight years ago.

The news clippings that Digg had said an autopsy was done on Andy Diggle.

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It's just sloppy writing. Any other reason the 8 years means something is really fabricating a theory out of thin air. Even if we forgive them for forgetting that Andy was in the s3 SC flashbacks, and perhaps give them some leeway that the FB do not move in a real time timetable; all of that does not erase the fact that QL in the previous episode said that Andy died 6 years ago when he confronted DD. As the clip that someone posted in the episode thread indicated.

 

So either they lied to us during that episode or during this episode. I'm more inclined to believe it was sloppy writing, rather than intentional misdirection on the writers part.

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(edited)

New York Times war reporter Sebastian Junger has written a book Tribe: On Homecoming and Belonging about soldiers and PTSD and how it's not the war itself that produces the PTSD but the post-war aftermath.

Among the interesting things he brings up is Benjamin Franklin wondering that thousands of white settlers have run off to join native tribes while not one native joined white society and suggests that the yearning to be part of a communal tribe is part of our existence.  He also talks about that when the bombing during WWII started in London, admission to psychiatric hospitals decreased and went down when the bombing ended.  The same with rates of depression in Ireland during the Troubles and New York city post 9/11..

Interview

Quote

'If you send men off to war in a platoon they get very, very close. In some ways they're happier even though they're in a war zone. And then they come back to modern society, and even though they're safer, emotionally, they feel like they're in danger because they're by themselves.' - Sebastian Junger

Relating this to Arrow (because i relate everything to Arrow), Diggle said in season 1 that his first marriage to Lyla worked while they were in the army but fell apart when they returned Stateside and he ended up going back to the army for another tour.

I think the biggest surprise at the end of season 4 was Diggle re-enlisting but it you look at it from Junger's perspecitve, it makes sense.  In the army, he's part of a Band of Brothers with a high level of social support, higher than he would be getting from Lyla or Team Arrow no matter how much they love him.

Maybe they got lucky, but the Arrow EPs found the best way for Diggle to heal from Darhk and Andy's betrayal. And his feelings maybe of betraying Andy.

Edited by statsgirl
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I must say, I'm surprised by the backlash against Diggle wearing the GA mantle for a while. The writer's room Twitter sent out the text for the current opening monologue and there are so many snotty "Not my Green Arrow" replies.  Anyone with narrative savvy knows Oliver will eventually be back, and I am rather pissed at Diggle's lying regarding the nerve damage (and the drugs, hoo boy!) -- Oh, and it is totally ridiculous that no one sees the difference in body build, facial hair, and skin color -- but I do love that Oliver asked Diggle and that Diggle sees it as an honor.  He's helped for so long, he is a major part of the "Green Arrow" even when he isn't fronting the costume.

I wonder if the outrage springs from resistance to change or just out right racist bias.

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A bit of column A and a bit of column B methinks.

The non comic canoness of this is clearly freaking some people out.

I honestly would love to see Diggle again as GA. Maybe when the Olicitots arrive. He's got a wonderful presence and is so yoda like. I'd love for him to be GA again minus the drug abd secrets plot. 

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I'm actually not surprised by the backlash tbh. I think the hardcore comic stans just want to watch Oliver Queen shoot arrows and this is like the third (?) time he's stopped being GA. And though we all know Oliver will be back and it is, for once, opening up some new dynamics (like with the Olicity reversal), it is a repetitive "been there, done that" type of plot point.

That said, Diggle is the only one who can really step into his shoes while he's gone so I also think they should just embrace it. At least there is a GA on the show at the moment instead of in s5 when there wasn't at all. I mean, they're even getting their GA/BC partnership in the field! ?

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The reaction does really underscore how narrow some people's enjoyment of the show is.  We've already seen the freakout that happened when Felicity was no longer just quirky comic relief and while Diggle already got one of the best fights of the series (the limo) I see huge complaints about how the fights are so boring now.  I'd actually say the opposite.  I'm way more interested lately.  For once they are different.  But for many, that just doesn't matter because they want only what they'd get in the comics.  Which is why again and again I keep hearing about returning to the dream team of "Oliver, Roy, and Laurel"  (aka GA, Arsenal, and BC) even though that never happened on the show.   They even call for Roy to come back and become GA.  

I can't help note a huge lack of imaginative thinking.  Some are forever locked into the comic formula.  

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I don't get the backlash either TBH. John is the best person to be GA. Do viewers forget that John has donned the costume in past seasons to help Oliver? I think it the real irk for them is that if  John is GA that means Felicity is in the field more with Oliver being Overwatch and THAT is what pisses them off but they push it on John because otherwise it's obvious from where the bias hails.

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I'm not surprised. Viewers who aren't happy about it watch the show for Oliver and want to see him in the suit, not to mention that Oliver has stepped down numerous times now so it took out any major impact. People are always "This isn't ___ & ____ show, this isn't named _____", well they just spent the last 6 years watching Oliver and don't want someone else to take up the mantle even if its short term. I for one enjoy the storyline though even if its a retread.

And looking at some of the comments, they seem like average viewers and arent just comic fans.

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If I was seeing mostly complaints about Oliver quitting again or the show is just recycling storylines then I think I would more easily believe it's a general viewer thing but so often they include their opinion on how the team should look and I'd say 80 percent of the time it's a mirror of the comics.  The 20 percent is when they let Diggle stick around as back up.  

 

On the other hand, if this is a general viewer complaint because they want to see Oliver as GA and not sidelined, then I'd like to snark about them watching just for one character rather than the whole show.  

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If you happen to be a fan of the main character then it really isn't surprising imo that your loyalty mainly lies in them. And it isn't as if they are quitting so them complaining isn't really any different then some not being happy with Dinah getting screen time or any character getting more/less screen time. 

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6 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

If you happen to be a fan of the main character then it really isn't surprising imo that your loyalty mainly lies in them. And it isn't as if they are quitting so them complaining isn't really any different then some not being happy with Dinah getting screen time or any character getting more/less screen time. 

Oliver is the only reason I watched this show. I watch for Oliver. Everyone is supporting Oliver. That said, John Fucking Diggle was Oliver's FIRST ally in his mission.  He's the FIRST person Arrow!Oliver trusted enough to tell his secret and invite him to the mission. He became Oliver's best friend even over Tommy.

Arrow!Oliver fans should 100% understand that relationship and why John is really the only logical choice for Arrow!Oliver to follow in his footsteps, over Roy or anyone else. IMO anyone who is a fan of John Fucking Diggle is not going to be opposed to this temporary situation and if they are, then I submit they are Comics!Oliver fans not Arrow!Oliver fans. JMHO.

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Not everyone who watches the show is in it for some deep relationship, it could be pure mindless enjoyment for them. And of course there are *shocker* fans out there that may not like Diggle or fan of the storyline so they wont accept it regardless. 

I love Arrow, and Diggle, but I hope this story arc is temporary. Oliver is the Green Arrow. Period. #arrow

Not that I don't like Diggle as GA but I'd like Oliver back please. #Arrow

I haven’t been watching ever since diggle took the mantle...nothing against him just not the story development I wanted to see...

Nope.... without Oliver Queen as GA, this show doesn't work.

I like Diggle as Spartan, but not the Green Arrow. I still enjoy the show very much so, but the whole thing is based off of Oliver Queen’s hell on an island! When Tommy died I cried. I think the show forgot about him!

Nothing about their tweets has anything to do with "Because Comics" or any comic based character taking the mantle over Oliver. They are just simply Oliver fans first and foremost. 

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22 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

If you happen to be a fan of the main character then it really isn't surprising imo that your loyalty mainly lies in them. And it isn't as if they are quitting so them complaining isn't really any different then some not being happy with Dinah getting screen time or any character getting more/less screen time. 

This isn't a contest to prove people's opinions but yeah, I have seen people post about quitting the show based on what's happening with Diggle and Oliver.

21 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

Not everyone who watches the show is in it for some deep relationship, it could be pure mindless enjoyment for them. And of course there are *shocker* fans out there that may not like Diggle or fan of the storyline so they wont accept it regardless. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nothing about their tweets has anything to do with "Because Comics" or any comic based character taking the mantle over Oliver. They are just simply Oliver fans first and foremost. 

I don't follow this on Twitter.  I'm talking Reddit.  Sure, there are always exceptions but I don't get why as fans of Oliver, people aren't more open to seeing him explore other aspects of his life.  It's not like it's a new permanent direction of the show but they seem just as determined to keep him in a narrow role as Felicity or Diggle.  But yeah, that role seems to keep coming back to what they think he should be doing based on comic book expectations whether those expectations come from actual GA comics or a general impression of how heroes in the comics should behave.  But I do find it of note people don't seem to complain about him being a Mayor even though that is the biggest other time suck of his life that otherwise could be spent running around and shooting arrows into people.  

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We learned in the conclusion of the crossover last night that Diggle is either psychic or prescient. When officiating their wedding, he was able to recite Barry and Iris' full names without being told them - Bartholomew Henry Allen and Iris Ann West. 

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7 minutes ago, tv echo said:

We learned in the conclusion of the crossover last night that Diggle is either psychic or prescient. When officiating their wedding, he was able to recite Barry and Iris' full names without being told them - Bartholomew Henry Allen and Iris Ann West. 

I figured he's known for a long time, Barry and Iris' full names because I figured Oliver knows and Felicity hacks all the things and he's married to the head of ARGUS. I mean he has access to all the 411.  :)

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10 minutes ago, NumberCruncher said:

Brief break from the crossover meltdown discussion to appreciate the beauty that was Diggle's arms in last night's episode. *le sigh*

I want to see The Gun Show with Diggle, Oliver, Dean Winchester and Castiel (who really does have awesome arms) LOL

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2012 casting announcement for John Diggle...

Ramsey cast in CW’s 'Arrow' pilot
Stuart Levine  Feb. 8, 2012
https://variety.com/2012/tv/news/ramsey-cast-in-cw-s-arrow-pilot-1118049941/

David Ramsey has been cast in the CW pilot “Arrow.”

Thesp, who is currently recurring in CBS’ “Blue Bloods” as the mayor of New York, will play the character John Diggle, a former military man now working as a bodyguard for hire who soon finds he is trapped in a battle of wits, loyalty and trust. Stephen Amell was previously cast for the lead role of Oliver Queen.

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About DR's audition...

-- David Rapaport: “If I remember correctly, Diggle was the last role to be cast and it was such a small role in the pilot... We did a studio and network test for it with maybe one page of dialogue. David is such a phenomenal actor. I’d known his work for a while and we kind of had a last-minute session. It wasn’t a forgettable character, but it was a last minute addition to finishing this pilot and we brought in five guys — he was the best. We tested him the same day we auditioned him and we just got really lucky because I don’t think anyone was expecting the role to be that big and we weren’t expecting that much from him, so we all felt so lucky to have such a great actor doing such a supporting part. Again, like Emily’s character, Diggle really grew throughout the season and now he’s such an important part of the team.”
https://www.buzzfeed.com/jarettwieselman/the-man-who-helped-build-the-cw

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