Everybody Loves Raymond - General Discussion

[Guest]

This topic replaces the old Everybody Loves Raymond forum which has been vaulted at the location below:  http://forums.previously.tv/forum/643-everybody-loves-raymond-v/

[BookThief]

This show is still pretty popular. Sucks to lose all the different sub-threads. Booo.

[CherryAmes]

I seem to be jinxed, they are messing with the threads I follow here and two message boards I really like are pretty much at death's door.  I'm losing all the timewaster places I usually go to on the Internet!

[Chai]

I have comcast so I am watching whatever episodes they put up that are available.  Yesterday they had two episodes devoted to celebritiy fans having a discussion about ELR. ugh. no thanks so the next episode was seeing the marriage counselor. I think they should've addressed the actual problem that Deb was trying to address: She was stuck with all the responsibility and had no help from Raymond. , I thought they needed a counselor over many issues. Especially concerning his mother! it would've eventually led to a divorce!

[CherryAmes]

1 hour ago, Chai said:

I think they should've addressed the actual problem that Deb was trying to address: She was stuck with all the responsibility and had no help from Raymond.

So many episodes have this happen.  Debra raises a legitimate issue and through the course of the episode somehow it becomes a He Said, She Said kind of thing with the resolution being that they are both wrong.  Ugh.   Debra's biggest wrong was in the way she handled the transgressions of Ray and his family!

[BlossomCulp]

4 hours ago, CherryAmes said:

Debra raises a legitimate issue and through the course of the episode somehow it becomes a He Said, She Said kind of thing with the resolution being that they are both wrong.  Ugh.

The only episode I can think of offhand where this doesn't happen is the checkbook episode from early in the series where Ray takes over paying the bills and majorly screws up.  Most of the time though Debra says or does something mean and somehow that ends up being the equivalent of the really bad thing that Ray did.  Like the time he didn't vote for her for school president but that ended up paling into insignificance because she was embarrassed that he stuffed his pants with meat so didn't tell people she knew him.  That wasn't a nice thing to do maybe but him not voting for her and being mad because she wanted to have some time for herself outside the house was a much bigger transgression and it got swept under the carpet,  Lol.  I think about this too much!

Edited January 6, 2019 by BlossomCulp

[Homily]

I had an "aha" moment watching an episode of ELR tonight.  And not a good one.  I realized that when I started watching ELR in 1996 I was Ray and Debra in terms of age and stage of life.  23 years, yes folks 23 years!!! later and now I'm sitting at the grandparents table with Frank and Marie!  I'm still younger than they were when the show started  but not by much.

[readster]

On 1/6/2019 at 11:52 AM, BlossomCulp said:

 That wasn't a nice thing to do maybe but him not voting for her and being mad because she wanted to have some time for herself outside the house was a much bigger transgression and it got swept under the carpet,  Lol.  I think about this too much!

It felt like they wanted Deb to have a life outside the house and in the last couple of seasons, especially when the kids were older. I was hoping that Debra would have gone back to work or done more. I do remember when she went after Ray that he and his coworkers "goof off" at work and lead to him creating his home office. Which, is much more constant now than in the late 90s. However, in a way, I think Debra was just tired of being at home dealing with the kids most of the time. By the time we got to season 4, the twins were in school and Ally was starting to get independent. I do agree the transition to Ray's family was what kept most of the issues going along with Marie being a "smother" and never being wrong. However, by the end of the series, you wonder why Ray and Debra didn't divorce because they were fight in EVERY SINGLE EPISODE!

[ByTor]

On 1/6/2019 at 8:23 AM, Chai said:

Yesterday they had two episodes devoted to celebritiy fans having a discussion about ELR

Was that one of the "best of" episodes?

I don't have cable anymore, but I was away from work a couple weeks back and caught ELR in my room on TBS.  Of course it was 2 episodes I never liked...that one where Ray is told he's going to hell (errrr I mean going to "heck" LOL) for not going to church, the other was Bully on the Bus.  I didn't like how cavalier Debra was over Ally picking on poor Judy Hooty.

[readster]

17 hours ago, ByTor said:

Was that one of the "best of" episodes?

I don't have cable anymore, but I was away from work a couple weeks back and caught ELR in my room on TBS.  Of course it was 2 episodes I never liked...that one where Ray is told he's going to hell (errrr I mean going to "heck" LOL) for not going to church, the other was Bully on the Bus.  I didn't like how cavalier Debra was over Ally picking on poor Judy Hooty.

Both of those episodes do not make me happy. Especially with Frank at the end and why he does what he does. That was too much. AS for Bully on the Bus. That ranks up there every time they tried to teach Ally an important lesson and it not only backfired in spades. ELR was very bad at teaching kids "a very valuable lesson." Of course I'm still trying to figure out how to 2 four year old twins. Went to a large garbage can, tipped it over and then just magically grabbed their grandmother's cookie tin. I mean, Debra even says how she buried it and placed so much on it. Yet the twins just waltz in kicking it like a soccer ball like it was just waiting on the lawn. 

[CherryAmes]

On 2/23/2019 at 3:54 PM, ByTor said:

I didn't like how cavalier Debra was over Ally picking on poor Judy Hooty.

I didn't like that either but what I really hated was their big solution "Be nice, Allie."  Aargh.  If they didn't want to deal with serious subjects seriously then why bother?  There are very few kid-centric episodes that I liked (Michael home pretending to be sick one of the exceptions) but this is one I can't really even watch anymore.

Edited February 25, 2019 by CherryAmes

[VCRTracking]

[readster]

On 2/25/2019 at 2:25 PM, CherryAmes said:

I didn't like that either but what I really hated was their big solution "Be nice, Allie."  Aargh.  If they didn't want to deal with serious subjects seriously then why bother?  There are very few kid-centric episodes that I liked (Michael home pretending to be sick one of the exceptions) but this is one I can't really even watch anymore.

Problem with Michael is that it went so over board. At that point from what Debra and Ray said it had been almost a week. He was literally clinging to the bed to keep from going to school. Yet, do they call the school to find out what Michael doesn't want to go? Do they try to contact the teacher by email? No. Also the fact that both Ray and Allie say: "Why was she yelling?" Pretty much what Debra and Marie had become in the final seasons. Completely yelling: "I'm always right" bitches!

[Vixenstud]

Just saw Liars the other day, and….

Ray was pissed at Debra because she always had him waiting whenever they went out.  They made a deal that if she wasn’t ‘AIS’ (ass in seat) by a certain time then he would leave her.

Now, Debra was ready with three minutes to spare but she just haaaaaaaaad to flitter with her hair!  Why couldn’t she have put the damned hair roller in her bag to take to the event where she could fuss with it in the bathroom?!   Anyway, when when Ray finally gets home Deb is pissed at him for leaving.

My question is, what was she so pissed about?  I was Team Ray on this one, and I'm a woman.

[Snow Apple]

If Debra ever decide to divorce Ray, she won't have to worry about a custody battle with him. Ray would love to be a drop in dad since that's what he already is. Dealing with Marie for the kids on the other hand.......

[Vixenstud]

33 minutes ago, Snow Apple said:

If Debra ever decide to divorce Ray, she won't have to worry about a custody battle with him. Ray would love to be a drop in dad since that's what he already is. Dealing with Marie for the kids on the other hand.......

Heck, once the kids grew up they didn't have much use for Marie/Frank, from what I'd see.

[Homily]

On 3/5/2019 at 10:29 AM, Snow Apple said:

If Debra ever decide to divorce Ray, she won't have to worry about a custody battle with him. Ray would love to be a drop in dad since that's what he already is.

The episode where Marie thought Ray and Debra were breaking up and she said "if anything happens we get the children, Raymond" made me laugh.  First no "we" don't get the kids, second Ray would not want them and third Marie would learn pretty damn fast that Debra would be the one calling the shots.  Almost makes me wish they'd gone down that road just to see Marie's reaction when she finally manipulates Debra out of the picture and ends up losing constant access to the grandkids into the bargain!

Edited March 8, 2019 by Homily

[VCRTracking]

Interesting interviews with Ray Romano:

[SpiritSong]

TVLand recently started running the series from Season 1 on. I'm always struck by how different season one was from the rest of the series. It was a much sweeter show. Debra and Ray liked each other and were much more loving. It was more of an us vs them (Ray's family) rather than Debra vs everyone in later years.

But, and it kills me to say this, the show was much funnier in later seasons. The characterizations became way too broad, but it did lead to a lot of laughs, which is the point of a sitcom. In reality, dealing with a man-baby mama's boy like Ray would be a nightmare. Even worse was that he was a habitual liar. A smart woman like Debra wouldn't have put up with that. Ray was a good financial provider. That is the only good thing he had going for him.

[Homily]

18 hours ago, SpiritSong said:

But, and it kills me to say this, the show was much funnier in later seasons. T

I hear you!  I love the early seasons but when I make a list of favourite episodes I am always surprised at how most of them are from later in the series.  Go figure 🙂.

[readster]

5 hours ago, Homily said:

I hear you!  I love the early seasons but when I make a list of favourite episodes I am always surprised at how most of them are from later in the series.  Go figure .

I felt the best episodes were from seasons 3-6, it was in season 7 that it started going down  hill. Don't even get me started on the disaster that was Amy's family and especially when Chris Elliot replaced Paul Rebuns as her brother. 

[SpiritSong]

On 3/20/2019 at 8:29 PM, readster said:

I felt the best episodes were from seasons 3-6, it was in season 7 that it started going down  hill. Don't even get me started on the disaster that was Amy's family and especially when Chris Elliot replaced Paul Rebuns as her brother. 

I kind of liked Hank 'n Pat. Especially in the episode where everyone discovered she smoked. They were a lot funnier than Debra's parents, though the older companion Debra's dad brought to Thanksgiving was hilarious.

[Snow Apple]

I liked Hank and Pat too. In addition to the smoking epiisode, I adored Pat calling Marie out on her selfishness during Robert and Amy's wedding. Ray was so impressed! Also the thanksgiving episode when Pat killed the bird believing it was an act of mercy. Marie and Frank were all holier than thou........and then the turkey dinner came out.

I hate Peter though. 

[readster]

2 minutes ago, Snow Apple said:

I liked Hank and Pat too. In addition to the smoking episode, I adored Pat calling Marie out on her selfishness during Robert and Amy's wedding. Ray was so impressed! Also the thanksgiving episode when Pat killed the bird believing it was an act of mercy. Marie and Frank were all holier than thou........and then the turkey dinner came out.

I hate Peter though. 

I had no problem with Hank and Pat, in fact I think they fit the mold perfectly on the type of parents that Amie would have. However, My Lord! What were the writers thinking with Peter? I remember reading notes when they originally cast Paul Reubens as Peter. The notes were: "Peter is a man-child who never really grew out of comics, but is a caring brother and is invested in his comic book store."  What lead to a guy going out of business, trying to sabotage his sister's wedding because he was angry that she was "having a life" is beyond me. Plus, Chris Elliot just didn't play the part right. Him almost having a relationship with Peggy? Oh no, that actually made sense. 

[Homily]

Random thought - Is Fred Willard still living?  If so Hank 'n' Pat are the last of the grandparents.  Anyway I agree about Peter.  I guess they decided to go a different way when they didn't want PeeWee Herman back as Russell but I think they went a little too far with Peter.  One thing I never could figure out though was why his parents were obsessed with him not meeting a nice girl when he was operating his comic book store out of Robert's old apartment and clearly, one would think, struggling financially.  Peter meeting a potential mate was the least of their worries!

[Snow Apple]

25 minutes ago, Homily said:

One thing I never could figure out though was why his parents were obsessed with him not meeting a nice girl when he was operating his comic book store out of Robert's old apartment and clearly, one would think, struggling financially.  Peter meeting a potential mate was the least of their worries!

This whole show is about finding a mate. Like you're not worth anything without one. Perhaps it's a generational thing.

Look at Robert. He's a respected police officer and passed the test to become lieutenant. But to Marie and Debra, he's a loser because he's not married. Nevermind how their own marriages are. Marie didn't care if he ended up with a woman who eat bugs. She just want him with someone. Anyone.

As for Peter, in addition to the above attitude, his parents probably want an unsuspecting woman to take him off their hands!

Edited March 24, 2019 by Snow Apple

[VCRTracking]

RIP Georgia Engel. I loved Pat and some of my favorite episodes of the later seasons was Robert catching her smoking or her bonding with Raymond. She added much needed sweetness to the dysfunction and petty arguing of the Barones.

[readster]

Always loved the actress, I didn't know her from MTM until later in my life, but loved her on Coach and later ELR.

[Homily]

I was saddened by this news but also so surprised at how young she was!  She must have only been in her 50s when she played Pat.

[wilsie]

TVLand is showing Georgia centered episodes right now in place of what was scheduled.    The first episode was Thanksgiving.  This one is the one about Robert's fork to chin episode.  There should be at least one more.

[wilsie]

A heads-up for this Sunday, April 21.   TVLand is showing 5 hours of Georgia Engel centric episodes starting at 5 pm EST.  

[Homily]

I hope they air the "Pat's secret" episode. She was awesome in that one!

[ctlady]

On 3/24/2019 at 10:25 AM, Snow Apple said:

Look at Robert. He's a respected police officer and passed the test to become lieutenant. But to Marie and Debra, he's a loser because he's not married

I never got that vibe from Debra.  Marie - definitely, but not Debra.  I know Debra got on Robert's case when he was flitting around between Amy, Stefania and Joanne.  He had something really good with Amy and...panicked as soon as she started talking about curtains for his apartment.

On 4/18/2019 at 9:05 AM, Homily said:

I hope they air the "Pat's secret" episode. She was awesome in that one!

Oh, when everyone's arguing after the secret comes out only for Hank to catch Pat lighting up as if to say, 'hey - the secret's out - why do I have to hide it anymore?"

[Valny]

On ‎4‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 9:05 AM, Homily said:

I hope they air the "Pat's secret" episode. She was awesome in that one!

I forgot, what was her secret?

[Homily]

She's a secret smoker.

[Homily]

We've cycled around to the first season again on my local channel and what strikes me most this time round in the viewing is how very different Ray and Debra were when the show started.  In some ways they're almost not the same characters by the time we get to the finale.  Debra is sweet and loving and even though she's impatient with Ray she tries to understand him and genuinely cares about him and his family.  And Ray defends Debra!  Shocker.  Fast forward to the end and boy what a difference!

[Guest]

On 6/25/2019 at 1:01 PM, Homily said:

We've cycled around to the first season again on my local channel and what strikes me most this time round in the viewing is how very different Ray and Debra were when the show started.  In some ways they're almost not the same characters by the time we get to the finale.  Debra is sweet and loving and even though she's impatient with Ray she tries to understand him and genuinely cares about him and his family.  And Ray defends Debra!  Shocker.  Fast forward to the end and boy what a difference!

Yes.... the first season is almost like a different show.  Each character becomes more of a caricature as the seasons go on!

[VCRTracking]

On 6/27/2019 at 8:34 AM, deaja said:

Yes.... the first season is almost like a different show.  Each character becomes more of a caricature as the seasons go on!

That happens with every long running sitcom.

Thinking about it "The Faux Pax" is my favorite episode of the last season. So much hilarious in the awkwardness and  second-hand embarrasment. It's just as cringe inducing as any Michael Scott moment on The Office(which would debut more than a month after this episode aired). The best moment is Frank saying "Marie you said he was black!" and Ray, Debra and Robert's horrified reaction and when Marie assures the father "I think it's wonderful that anyone can be a janitor now". The unfortunate father and janitor was played Joel McKinnon Miller by who would go on to play Scully on Brooklyn Nine Nine.

Edited June 29, 2019 by VCRTracking

[Guest]

And the last scene where Amy says something about Marie opening her big mouth and making it worse only to discover Marie could hear her always amuses me.

[zillabreeze]

I guess I had a life back when this show was new, I don't remember watching it.

Just giving it a try now.   Some episodes have some pretty cute plots and lines, but two things bug me. 

Maybe an UO, but I strongly dislike the Frank character.  I think he's a one note character that is not at all funny.  He's a loud, stupid, pig that brought nothing to the show.  The laugh track guffaws with every dumb or crud thing he says.  Why?  Lazy writing.

I also get cringey with the old "wife uses sex as control and husband is always begging for it" trope.  I hate it on any show, but they really let this one go too far.

[Homily]

6 minutes ago, zillabreeze said:

I also get cringey with the old "wife uses sex as control and husband is always begging for it" trope.  I hate it on any show, but they really let this one go too far.

Totally agree with this.  ELR is my "comfort food" show.  I got into it during a very stressful time in my life and it's still my go to show, however, especially in the last years of the series Ray the horndog drove me absolutely crazy.  That said Ray Romano improved so much as an actor that he could get away with it.  Still didn't like it though.   

[Rescue Mama]

Frank was an angel compared to the horrible Marie.  She was such a meddlesome, manipulative witch. I fast forward her scenes any time I can. 

[Snow Apple]

I never minded Frank except for the one where he "sampled" in the grocery store and scared Ally. And when he says his grandsons are gay and not in an accepting way.

I always try to avoid Marie's scenes too, but will always enjoy the Cinnamon episode. 

Edited July 7, 2019 by Snow Apple

[tribeca]

Recently I was watching one of those medium shows. The   medium goes up to lady in audience and says your mother in law is here.  That’s how I picture ELR now.  Even from The beyond Marie finds a way to meddle 🤣

   The Ray stuff that made me laugh the most was the fly episode and when he tried to lift Debra up on top of refrigerator .   The last one I have seen a million times and I still crack up.   

Edited July 8, 2019 by tribeca

[jalady]

I also didn't watch this when it originally aired, but find it a much less stressful way to start the day than watching the national news 😣  Hate Robert (as the less favored sibling, his beef should be with Marie - not Ray!), but what's the Cinnamon episode?

[Homily]

27 minutes ago, jalady said:

Hate Robert (as the less favored sibling, his beef should be with Marie - not Ray!), but what's the Cinnamon episode?

I think what this is referencing is the flashback episode where we first meet Robert's ex wife.  It starts in the present and they see her in a restaurant then Ray tells Amy the story of how Joanne (her dancer name was Cinnamon) and Robert end up divorcing.  What's particularly funny is they show why Marie becomes a first class meddler - and show Debra still oblivious to what awaits her after moving across the street from Marie!

[Vixenstud]

I hated how Robert treated Amy....no wonder the MacDougals wouldn't accept him asking for her hand in marriage.  It was only after they married that Amy sometimes stood up to him.

And yeah, the withholding sex gets old, on any sitcom.

On 7/6/2019 at 9:08 AM, zillabreeze said:

Maybe an UO, but I strongly dislike the Frank character.  I think he's a one note character that is not at all funny.  He's a loud, stupid, pig that brought nothing to the show.

Didn't like Frank either....the one where he painted Ray and Debra's house, he was being a total asshole.  And I never liked how he belittled his sons and grandchildren.  As for Grandpa Steals, he was wrong and I would have kept my kids from him until he controlled his temper.

[Homily]

An early episode showed how different Marie was without Frank around.  In the Cruising with Marie episode she has no trouble making friends, is nice to everyone and seems to be genuinely enjoying herself.  They dropped this later when by the last season Marie becomes the terror of the retirement community  but I wish they'd kept this side of Marie because to me it always made sense that Marie became the woman she was because of the man she married!

[zillabreeze]

2 hours ago, jalady said:

I also didn't watch this when it originally aired, but find it a much less stressful way to start the day than watching the national news 

That's exactly why I started rooting around checking out old sitcoms!   I had to put myself on a "news diet" for my sanity.

[tribeca]

1 hour ago, Homily said:

 They dropped this later when by the last season Marie becomes the terror of the retirement community  but I wish they'd kept this side of Marie because to me it always made sense that Marie became the woman she was because of the man she married!

Marie just could not resist his boyish charm.