S04.E10: The Deep Heart's Core

[Athena]

Quote

Jamie and Claire keep secrets from one another as they try to help Brianna process her recent trauma. But the secrets they keep cause a bigger familial rift once they are revealed.

Reminder: This is the No Book Talk topic. No discussion of the books is allowed including saying "in the books..." Posts may be removed without warning.

[nara]

Given how much some fans seem to idolize Jamie, it’s good to see the moments when he is a complete jerk/more human.

I liked how he got Brianna to realize that it was not her fault and that surviving the rape was what mattered.

When confronted with his mistake regarding Roger, however, he became very defensive. “I could not have known...” Yes, but you could have brought the man to Brianna and given her the opportunity to decide what happened. However, this was a very realistic reaction IMO.

Unfortunately, he didn’t learn anything, and now Murtagh is tasked with bringing Bonnet to be killed by Jamie. I think it’s likely that he will do this in secret again, rather than letting Brianna decide what happens. I am worried that there will be some further ramifications, like Murtagh or Ian or Lizzie being hurt in the process.

I like that the abortion option was discussed because I was wondering about that last episode. Ditto for the option of returning to modern day.

I guessed that Roger would end up at the American stones but I still liked it when it happened. Go, Roger, go! But of course he won’t. 

Nice to be back at River Run again. I Wonder how Brianna will react to slavery. Maybe engineer Brianna will bring some modern day invention to at least make their lives easier?

[BitterApple]

So should I just go ahead and assume Roger didn't actually touch the stone and will be back with the Mohawk in the next episode? Otherwise Jamie and Claire are on a wild goose chase. 

Briana was dishing out a lot of violence. Didn't Lizzie warrant a slap given that she started this whole mess in the first place? I also don't understand the mad rush to find Briana a husband. Why not just say she was married, but he died? Isn't that what happened to the German girl whose baby Claire delivered? 

I wonder if there was some foreshadowing when Jamie made the remark about "if he's a decent guy, he'll accept you and if not he doesn't deserve you." Given that Roger slut-shamed Briana for wanting to have sex outside of marriage, I'm not convinced he's evolved enough to a) move past the rape and b) raise a child who may not be his. 

[NeenerNeener]

Kudos to those folks here who guessed a season or so back that Murtagh would end up at River Run.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I try to remember that this show takes place 200 years ago when I see blatant sexism, but ugh, Jamie was working my last nerve. I know he was trying to get Brianna to understand that no matter how much she fought, she couldn't have stopped the rape, but he didn't have to preface that with "Maybe you wanted it and you lied about it." GROSS.

And that was after he insisted that she had to get married because she was pregnant. Give me a fucking break. It was ye olden times, long before records were kept of every little thing. If anyone asked, she could just say that her husband had died and no one would question it. It was really dumb to put in writing that Brianna is pregnant and unmarried. Jamie could have just written that Murtagh would explain the circumstances in person.

When Jamie repeated the same accusation (that Brianna lied about being raped), all I could think was dude, SHUT UP.

But I still had some rage left for Jamie when Brianna told him that she had consensual sex and then was raped by someone else because he couldn't just take her at her word, He had to look at Claire and ask, "Is it true?" Well, if Claire, who wasn't there when either sex act happened, says it was true then it must be true!

I loved Claire and Brianna listing some of the things they missed from the 20th century. I would definitely miss toilets and aspirin (along with the drug aisle at CVS - I think we forget how easy it is to relieve the discomfort of coughing, headaches, diarrhea, etc).

I know that Ian was genuinely trying to make up for his part in Roger's beating when he offered to marry Brianna, but I was with Jamie: "Get off your knee, you idgit!"

Will Brianna and Murtagh really be safe at River Run? The governor knows Murtagh's heading the regulators so I'm just waiting for him to show up and arrest him.

Edited January 6, 2019 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Scarlett45]

6 hours ago, BitterApple said:

I wonder if there was some foreshadowing when Jamie made the remark about "if he's a decent guy, he'll accept you and if not he doesn't deserve you." Given that Roger slut-shamed Briana for wanting to have sex outside of marriage, I'm not convinced he's evolved enough to a) move past the rape and b) raise a child who may not be his. 

Rodger can be a possessive prick, but I think he would be kind to Brianna regarding the rape (stranger rape was treated much differently than rape by someone you knew even back in the 1970s); but evolved Rodger is NOT. 

Can I say I love how honest and directly Claire and Bree discussed terminating the pregnancy? And their reminincising about things they miss from the 20th century, so SWEET!

[Hannah Lee]

There were some good parts of this episode, but the scene with Brianna and Jamie walking and talking about her rape, and how she felt responsible for it bugged me.  While there was so much good it it a) I hated the accusations that Jamie threw at her her and how he physically overpowered her.  Yes, I know it was in service of getting her to understand, really understand, that she was not at fault for getting raped, but it seemed a horrible thing to do with someone who had just gone through a physically and emotionally violent traumatic experience and b) the entire time the were talking, all I could think was how Jamie had, just 1-2 days previously, nearly beaten to death the man he thought raped her and then had him "disappeared", all his talk about how a revenge killing doesn't matter and with time you just learn to live with it, along with his attempts to comfort her just seemed at odds with his self-righteous violence in the previous episode.   He might be able to compartmentalize those two experiences, but I couldn't.

[Scarlett45]

@Hannah Lee I took this as evidence of an old school parenting model “do as I say, not as I do”. 

[Cdh20]

Ugh,  not sure I liked this episode! Brianna & Jamie at odds, Claire & Jamie at odds, poor Roger!  Lizzie caused the whole mess up & she didn’t get slapped? Didn’t Jamie learn that revenge doesn’t feel that good? 

 

Who’s looking after the cabin, crops, animals while they are all away?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

4 minutes ago, Cdh20 said:

Who’s looking after the cabin, crops, animals while they are all away?

Jamie said he asked Tom Burley (who was mentioned earlier in the episode as wanting two barrels of Jamie’s whiskey) to take care of the animals and crops while they were gone. 

[Cdh20]

1 minute ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Jamie said he asked Tom Burley (who was mentioned earlier in the episode as wanting two barrels of Jamie’s whiskey) to take care of the animals and crops while they were gone. 

Thanks I did not catch that but they did say in the last episode that they had settlers now.

[Cdh20]

15 hours ago, nara said:

Given how much some fans seem to idolize Jamie, it’s good to see the moments when he is a complete jerk/more human.

I liked how he got Brianna to realize that it was not her fault and that surviving the rape was what mattered.

When confronted with his mistake regarding Roger, however, he became very defensive. “I could not have known...” Yes, but you could have brought the man to Brianna and given her the opportunity to decide what happened. However, this was a very realistic reaction IMO.

Unfortunately, he didn’t learn anything, and now Murtagh is tasked with bringing Bonnet to be killed by Jamie. I think it’s likely that he will do this in secret again, rather than letting Brianna decide what happens. I am worried that there will be some further ramifications, like Murtagh or Ian or Lizzie being hurt in the process.

I like that the abortion option was discussed because I was wondering about that last episode. Ditto for the option of returning to modern day.

I guessed that Roger would end up at the American stones but I still liked it when it happened. Go, Roger, go! But of course he won’t. 

Nice to be back at River Run again. I Wonder how Brianna will react to slavery. Maybe engineer Brianna will bring some modern day invention to at least make their lives easier?

I hate when I have to watch Jamie be a jerk, luckily it only happens about once a season!

Yes, my husband mentioned this too! Or why hasn't Claire invented something?

5 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Can I say I love how honest and directly Claire and Bree discussed terminating the pregnancy? And their reminincising about things they miss from the 20th century, so SWEET!

Yes, the mother/daughter times were good this week! 

11 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

 

I know that Ian was genuinely trying to make up for his part in Roger's beating when he offered to marry Brianna, but I was with Jamie: "Get off your knee, you idgit!"

At least we got a laugh in once tonight!

Edited January 7, 2019 by Cdh20

[Cdh20]

12 hours ago, BitterApple said:

I wonder if there was some foreshadowing when Jamie made the remark about "if he's a decent guy, he'll accept you and if not he doesn't deserve you." Given that Roger slut-shamed Briana for wanting to have sex outside of marriage, I'm not convinced he's evolved enough to a) move past the rape and b) raise a child who may not be his. 

I disagree, I think we are going to see the redemption of Roger!

12 hours ago, BitterApple said:

So should I just go ahead and assume Roger didn't actually touch the stone and will be back with the Mohawk in the next episode? Otherwise Jamie and Claire are on a wild goose chase. 

That will be the first part of his redemption, choosing to stay, & find Bree.

Edited January 7, 2019 by Cdh20

[Juliegirlj]

Entirely too much slapping in this episode. 

Ian was sweet to want to help his cousin by proposing- Jamie was mean to call him an idiot.... 

I would have preferred that Jamie tell Bri that he also experienced a rape- instead of Bri hearing it from Claire. 

[BitterApple]

19 minutes ago, Juliegirlj said:

Entirely too much slapping in this episode. 

Ian was sweet to want to help his cousin by proposing- Jamie was mean to call him an idiot.... 

I would have preferred that Jamie tell Bri that he also experienced a rape- instead of Bri hearing it from Claire. 

Me too. That seems like an odd thing for Claire to tell Brianna. "Oh, btw, your biological father was raped by one of your adoptive father's ancestors, more tea?".

The scene would've been much more impactful if Briana were hearing about Wentworth from Jamie.

Ian's always such a team player. Willing to murder for his family and marry his cousin to save her virtue. How can you not love a guy like that?

[Cdh20]

48 minutes ago, Juliegirlj said:

 

 

I would have preferred that Jamie tell Bri that he also experienced a rape- instead of Bri hearing it from Claire. 

Agreed! I expected Jamie to confide in her about it & it would be a bonding thing for them!

[Nidratime]

Well, Jamie sort of confided in Young Ian, earlier in the season, when Ian was having PTSD over what Geillis did to him. But, Jamie didn't say much about the details to Ian, of either his rape by BlackJack or the situation he was in with Geneva.

However, I can see how it would be difficult to confess the details -- or even the generalities -- to his own daughter, especially as he wants to remain strong and protective to her and not confess what he might consider his weaknesses. (And, I'm mentioning this in regards to Jamie as a man of his time, not a 20th Century man.) 

[Scarlett45]

7 minutes ago, Nidratime said:

Well, Jamie sort of confided in Young Ian, earlier in the season, when Ian was having PTSD over what Geillis did to him. But, Jamie didn't say much about the details to Ian, of either his rape by BlackJack or the situation he was in with Geneva.

However, I can see how it would be difficult to confess the details -- or even the generalities -- to his own daughter, especially as he wants to remain strong and protective to her and not confess what he might consider his weaknesses. (And, I'm mentioning this in regards to Jamie as a man of his time, not a 20th Century man.) 

Even men in the 21st century have such a stigma regarding sexual assualt. Women are taught to fear rape right after we are taught our address, despite all of the victim blaming that goes on in our society a woman is more likely to find support and the empathy of someone that had been through the same thing. 

Heterosexual men rarely don’t have sexual assualt as something they routinely fear unless they are incarcerated. There are still the notions that if a man is raped by another man his sexuality is called into question, and sexual assualt by women is something our society as doesn’t like to address. 

 

Jaime is certainly a man of his time, but he did try to relate to Brianna when it was known that she knew what happened to him. Any embarrassment he felt (not saying he should be embarrassed, only that he was) he put aside to comfort her which is a testament to his emotional intelligence. 

[Hannah Lee]

3 hours ago, Juliegirlj said:

Entirely too much slapping in this episode. 

Ian was sweet to want to help his cousin by proposing- Jamie was mean to call him an idiot.... 

I would have preferred that Jamie tell Bri that he also experienced a rape- instead of Bri hearing it from Claire. 

I was oddly OK with the slapping.  Was it the "best" most mature reaction? no.   But it fits Brianna being Jamie's daughter and just one generation removed from Scottish Highlanders - how many times was there violence or threats of violence among the Frasers and Mackensies?  Their family crests should probably just be pictures of impulsive hotheads who resort to smacking someone when angered/betrayed.

Also given the epic love story that Claire and Jamie have experienced, and that Jamie would do just about anything for Claire or to get back to Claire if they were separated, he, of all people, could understand someone being devastatingly angry that someone had harmed and banished their partner, the person they've mourned being separated from.

Sure, it was a case of mistaken identity, but even understanding that, I could still see how Brianna was that angry - Jamie deciding for himself what should happen to her rapist, without consulting her, was yet another case of some guy who supposedly cares for her taking it upon himself to make important decisions that concern her (like Roger withholding the information that Brianna's parents die(d) in a fire) .  It's one of her hot-button issues; we even see a hint of it in her relationship with Frank, when she was upset that Frank and Claire decided to divorce without consulting her.  Fortunately, in that case she just stomped off in a huff without slapping him.  (Unfortunately she was way out of line with that one, and, oh yeah, how he died shortly after)

As far as how Bree learned about Jamie's experiences with Black Jack, and what went on at Wentworth Prison, while that might have been more satisfying to see, I can understand why Claire told Brianna first.  It sounds like that story came out when Claire was telling Bree about her experiences in the 1700's.  It was Jamie's story, true, but it was also integral to Claire's story - how Randall threatened her, the sacrifice Jamie made to save her, and how she helped him recover and move forward.  If I were changing how that reveal came out to Bree, I don't think I'd change that Claire told her, but I would have pushed back Jamie's conversation with Bree about it, and his attempt to help her truly understand the rape was not her fault, back into last episode...before he attacked Roger.

Edited January 7, 2019 by Hannah Lee

[Cdh20]

1 hour ago, Nidratime said:

Well, Jamie sort of confided in Young Ian, earlier in the season, when Ian was having PTSD over what Geillis did to him. But, Jamie didn't say much about the details to Ian, of either his rape by BlackJack or the situation he was in with Geneva.

However, I can see how it would be difficult to confess the details -- or even the generalities -- to his own daughter, especially as he wants to remain strong and protective to her and not confess what he might consider his weaknesses. (And, I'm mentioning this in regards to Jamie as a man of his time, not a 20th Century man.) 

I liked that he said he did it to save/protect  Claire & would make that choice again for her-it's important that Bree knows how much he loves Claire, & also that a rape was what triggered him to beat up Roger, even though it was wrong of him to take matters into his own hands. I am sad for Jamie that now she is so mad at him, & had to add that jab about what Frank would or wouldn't do! Of course the problems with this episode were mostly with Jamie being a man of his time! Too bad Bree didn't see Frank beat up those guys in the alley in episode 108.

[Cdh20]

42 minutes ago, Hannah Lee said:

As far as how Bree learned about Jamie's experiences with Black Jack, and what went on at Wentworth Prison, while that might have been more satisfying to see, I can understand why Claire told Brianna first.  It sounds like that story came out when Claire was telling Bree about her experiences in the 1700's.  It was Jamie's story, true, but it was also integral to Claire's story - how Randall threatened her, the sacrifice Jamie made to save her, and how she helped him recover and move forward. 

Yeah this makes sense! But I didn't think it would be something Claire included telling many people, certainly not anyone else?

[Hannah Lee]

1 hour ago, Cdh20 said:

I liked that he said he did it to save/protect  Claire & would make that choice again for her-it's important that Bree knows how much he loves Claire, & also that a rape was what triggered him to beat up Roger, even though it was wrong of him to take matters into his own hands. I am sad for Jamie that now she is so mad at him, & had to add that jab about what Frank would or wouldn't do! Of course the problems with this episode were mostly with Jamie being a man of his time! Too bad Bree didn't see Frank beat up those guys in the alley in episode 108.

Jamie being a man of his time, for me, accounts for why he beat up Roger before trying to confirm who Roger was or why he was there, or telling him who he was.  

But as for the rest, I'd argue that the problems of this episode were mostly as a result of people not sharing information with each other, all the way back to Brianna not telling Lizzie that she was leaving the tavern with someone she knew and trusted...her friend Roger, back when she first took off with him in Wilmington.  (I still can't wrap my head around that. Yes, yes I know she was excited to see Roger, and probably not thinking clearly.  But Brianna and Lizzie had just traveled across the ocean together, Bree knows how dangerous the 1700's can be (between her own experiences and stories Claire told her)  and they were basically alone in this place neither of them knew, where neither of them personally knew a soul.  Whether or not Bree felt OK leaving with Roger, you'd think for a second she might say "oh, wait, I've just left a woman alone in a tavern, an ocean away from her home, and I'm the only person she knows here.  We've had each other's backs for weeks, and technically, she's charged with, responsible for, looking after me...hmm maybe it might be kind to mention to her that I won't be back for a while so she doesn't worry/go wandering around looking for me, putting herself at risk")

So Brianna not telling Lizzie she'd run into her on again, off again boyfriend, now hand-fast husband, and not sharing she'd had wildly different encounters with two men that day (that part's understandable given her trauma)l  Brianna not telling anyone for months about Stephen Bonnet;  Claire not telling Jamie about Bonnet; Jamie, Ian, Lizzie not mentioning to Claire or Brianna that they'd seen the man from Wilmington at Fraser's Ridge - before taking action, and then not mentioning it soon after they'd gotten rid of Roger, when it would have been more feasible that they could go get him without traveling months, Jamie not correcting Claire's assumption that he'd hurt his hand on a tree ... lack of sharing information made things worse.   It was just bad communication. 

Maybe Claire and Jamie's "we can have secrets, but never lies" promise needs to be updated now that their in the new world?

On a different subject, I'm guessing that Roger is not going through the stones, partially because he won't decide to leave Brianna (for all he knows, there are violent maniacs roaming around near Fraser's Ridge, randomly and brutally attacking strangers and selling them into slavery, he'd want to find Bree and make sure she's safe)   But also, I can't imagine that Roger, being exhausted, injured, disoriented,  unfamiliar with the territory or landscape, not used to traveling unnoticed in the woods, would be able to completely evade a group of non-exhausted, highly motivated Mohawk searching for him on foot and horseback, even if they are out of their home territory. It will probably be like Claire trying to go back to Frank through the stones....just as she's standing there, someone comes up and captures her, dragging her away. 

Edited January 7, 2019 by Hannah Lee

[Scarlett45]

On 1/6/2019 at 12:15 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

It was really dumb to put in writing that Brianna is pregnant and unmarried. Jamie could have just written that Murtagh would explain the circumstances in person.

 

I wanted to comment on this- I think Jaime did that because he wanted Aunt Jocasta to know the truth. A sign of emotional/social vulnerablity would make her more likely to help Brianna. It was a good way to build trust as Jaime is sending her to live with people she’s never met before that know nothing of her being from the future. Brianna is in a precarious position so I see Jaime doing all he could to invoke family duty etc etc. 

[ganesh]

On 1/6/2019 at 10:20 AM, BitterApple said:

Briana was dishing out a lot of violence.

I have to agree. She certainly has a right to be furious, but it just put me off. Jamie, ok. He jumped to the obviously wrong conclusion and said some really ignorant things from her pov. Ian didn't deserve it though. And, really, that's not how Frank raised her. Not a good look slapping people around.

I was already put off by the 'not communicating important information' trope all around. How was Jamie to know she had sex with Roger and the Bonnet raped her? 

Hey, Bree, it's not the 1970s you know. You're the visitor. Wow. I generally liked the character and I know she's not a fave, but I can't say I'm much enjoying her this time. 

Edited January 8, 2019 by ganesh

[ganesh]

On 1/6/2019 at 10:20 AM, BitterApple said:

Otherwise Jamie and Claire are on a wild goose chase. 

They kind of are now. We know now that he escaped. What are they going to do when they meet the Mohawk? And what would she do if they refused? 

I know they're constrained by the books, so I'm not putting it on TPTB, but this is just a poor quality plot for me. 

Really. Roger give the Mohawk the slip? okaaay. 

My morbid sense of entertainment is rooting for Claire's skull to be Roger's. 

And let's see if Bree decides she's going to abolish slavery now. 

It was cool to see another set of stones and hear the buzzing. I always forget to pay attention to listen for it. I wish the show had gotten more into this.

I don't buy for a second Roger went through. I mean, who do they think they're fooling. We've watched this for over 4 years. 

Edited January 8, 2019 by ganesh

[Iguessnot]

I felt that St. Olivia of SVU was writing Brianna's and Jamie's dialogue. It was tiresome. Bonnet slugged and dragged her across floor, all while Brianna cried for help in a tavern where nobody gave a damn. She was attacked by a pirate in his safe haven. Her declarations that she could have fought harder sounded like nothing more than a PSA. When Jamie started saying those things to Brianna it was clear what he was doing. So we have this 18th century Scotsman and a 1970's young lady spouting millennium Law and Order SVU dialogue.  It was rather absurd how casually they discussed Jamie's rape.  

It's strange that's there no consideration that Brianna should tread lightly when going back 200 years. Even in her own time, she wouldn't approach a biker gang in a bar without a sense of caution.

Brianna easily slaps and insults Jamie and Ian, yet she is civil and calm with Lizzie. Since they aren't even trying, at least they are moving the story along.

Edited January 8, 2019 by Iguessnot

[nara]

I think that the angst of deciding whether or not to go back through the stones was shown better with Roger than with Claire in a season 1 after the witch trial.

[ganesh]

8 hours ago, Iguessnot said:

t's strange that's there no consideration that Brianna should tread lightly when going back 200 years. Even in her own time, she wouldn't approach a biker gang in a bar without a sense of caution.

I mean, I feel bad for her, and it's totally not her fault, but just her going back in general, there's a huge lack of situational awareness. It seems that Claire discussed her first trip back, so it's not like she doesn't have any idea. I feel like she got kind of dumbed down for the sake of plot. 

It amazes me she got all the way to Wilmington without any of that registering. 

[Pixel]

On 1/8/2019 at 8:35 AM, ganesh said:

I mean, I feel bad for her, and it's totally not her fault, but just her going back in general, there's a huge lack of situational awareness. It seems that Claire discussed her first trip back, so it's not like she doesn't have any idea. I feel like she got kind of dumbed down for the sake of plot. 

It amazes me she got all the way to Wilmington without any of that registering. 

And also, Bree could have put together a pouch full of OTC meds to take with as well. It would have been a nice hostess gift for her mother. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 1/7/2019 at 10:14 PM, ganesh said:

My morbid sense of entertainment is rooting for Claire's skull to be Roger's.

Claire said/believes the same Native American man whose ghost she saw is the time traveler whose skull she found.

[ganesh]

She also said and showed Jamie that the skull had silver fillings in the teeth, so she may have thought it was the ghost, but after examining the skull, that just isn't possible. 

I would just like Bree being in the past to be nothing but utter tragedy. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

8 hours ago, ganesh said:

She also said and showed Jamie that the skull had silver fillings in the teeth, so she may have thought it was the ghost, but after examining the skull, that just isn't possible.

As I said, "the time traveler whose skull she found". Were you thinking he must be from the time period because of his clothes? Native American man from a time when silver fillings exists travels back in time, dresses in clothing appropriate to the past, is somehow killed, his ghost helps Claire (whom he is presumably drawn to because she's a fellow time traveler, explaining why it's she who has this experience and why he would bother to help her), and leads her to his skull.

Edited January 12, 2019 by Noneofyourbusiness

[ganesh]

Given that the last skull she found had more of an impact on the plot than that, I'm leaning to something more significant. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

Just now, ganesh said:

Given that the last skull she found had more of an impact on the plot than that, I'm leaning to something more significant. 

Also, the skull has a pattern on the back caused by scalping, and the ghost had been scalped. The ghost is wearing a precious stone, and the same stone is found right next to the skull.

It's premature to say the Native American man won't be significant.

[ganesh]

 I'm not sure why it's a such an issue that I think it would be darkly hilarious if it were Roger. I really don't care whose skull it is in the larger context of the show. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

17 minutes ago, ganesh said:

 I'm not sure why it's a such an issue that I think it would be darkly hilarious if it were Roger. I really don't care whose skull it is in the larger context of the show. 

It's not an issue that you think it would be funny if it's Roger. You seemed to be entertaining that as a real possibility so I clarified how the show already said who it was and the bulk of evidence for it. There's no need to feel under attack when other people just mention facts.

Edited January 12, 2019 by Noneofyourbusiness

[TV Anonymous]

On 1/6/2019 at 12:57 PM, NeenerNeener said:

Kudos to those folks here who guessed a season or so back that Murtagh would end up at River Run.

Out of topic: why the name must be River Run? Keep thinking of Ser Edmure Tully with that name. 🙂

[toolazy]

On 4/18/2019 at 6:22 AM, TV Anonymous said:

Out of topic: why the name must be River Run? Keep thinking of Ser Edmure Tully with that name. 🙂

I guess GRRM stole it from Diana Gabaldon.

[vavera4ka]

On ‎1‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 11:20 AM, BitterApple said:

I wonder if there was some foreshadowing when Jamie made the remark about "if he's a decent guy, he'll accept you and if not he doesn't deserve you." Given that Roger slut-shamed Briana for wanting to have sex outside of marriage, I'm not convinced he's evolved enough to a) move past the rape and b) raise a child who may not be his. 

I saw it more as a nod to Frank. 

Though grateful to him, I think Jamie resents Frank a bit for being so honorable and not giving him a good reason to hate him. So I saw that last snippet as a little bit of salt coming out.

[Kim0820]

 

On 1/7/2019 at 10:22 AM, BitterApple said:

Me too. That seems like an odd thing for Claire to tell Brianna. "Oh, btw, your biological father was raped by one of your adoptive father's ancestors, more tea?".

It seems we only find out how much Claire told Brianna about her 18th century previous adventures when it suits the plot.  It is odd that she would have related the happenings at Wentworth.  If she did that, she must have told just about everything.  Her assault by the French King, the guy she killed, killing Dougal, the witch trial.  And while at the Ridge during those weeks would she have told all about Jamaica and the hurricane.  And does Brianna know about Faith?  And Lord John and William?  Geillis' fate?  

On 1/7/2019 at 1:29 PM, Cdh20 said:

I liked that he said he did it to save/protect  Claire & would make that choice again for her-it's important that Bree knows how much he loves Claire, & also that a rape was what triggered him to beat up Roger, even though it was wrong of him to take matters into his own hands. I am sad for Jamie that now she is so mad at him, & had to add that jab about what Frank would or wouldn't do! Of course the problems with this episode were mostly with Jamie being a man of his time! Too bad Bree didn't see Frank beat up those guys in the alley in episode 108.

Frank is 20th century too, so the comparison isn't exactly apt.  You can go to the police then.  And definitely your men would be arrested for attacking the rapist.  Though I think in 1970 it would likely get ignored by police and they not believe her; it was still bad that way as far back as 1970.  

Jamie had a bit of 20th century sensibility that he may have gotten from Claire.  Claire was pretty negligent in telling Jamie that Brianna was raped, without the stories of the two men involved, and also without giving Jamie extra instruction on how 20th century Brianna will view things.  Jamie had no reason to know it was that complicated.

On 1/7/2019 at 3:03 PM, Hannah Lee said:

Jamie being a man of his time, for me, accounts for why he beat up Roger before trying to confirm who Roger was or why he was there, or telling him who he was.  

But as for the rest, I'd argue that the problems of this episode were mostly as a result of people not sharing information with each other, all the way back to Brianna not telling Lizzie that she was leaving the tavern with someone she knew and trusted...her friend Roger, back when she first took off with him in Wilmington.  (I still can't wrap my head around that. Yes, yes I know she was excited to see Roger, and probably not thinking clearly.  But Brianna and Lizzie had just traveled across the ocean together, Bree knows how dangerous the 1700's can be (between her own experiences and stories Claire told her)  and they were basically alone in this place neither of them knew, where neither of them personally knew a soul.  Whether or not Bree felt OK leaving with Roger, you'd think for a second she might say "oh, wait, I've just left a woman alone in a tavern, an ocean away from her home, and I'm the only person she knows here.  We've had each other's backs for weeks, and technically, she's charged with, responsible for, looking after me...hmm maybe it might be kind to mention to her that I won't be back for a while so she doesn't worry/go wandering around looking for me, putting herself at risk")

 

Lizzie identified Roger, so Jamie could not see any reason to try to identify him.  He'd been identified from Jamie's point of view.   

On 1/7/2019 at 10:04 PM, ganesh said:

I have to agree. She certainly has a right to be furious, but it just put me off. Jamie, ok. He jumped to the obviously wrong conclusion and said some really ignorant things from her pov. Ian didn't deserve it though. And, really, that's not how Frank raised her. Not a good look slapping people around.

I was already put off by the 'not communicating important information' trope all around. How was Jamie to know she had sex with Roger and the Bonnet raped her? 

I could see her being furious at first, but both she and Claire withheld information, starting with Bree not telling Lizzie enough and then both not telling Jamie enough.  Brianna thinks Jamie and Ian have bad judgment?  Their judgment was based on the information they had, which Brianna and Claire know full well was incomplete by their own choice.   How were they to know?  Kind of reminds me of Lizzie Bennett being judgmental of her mother for not liking Mr. Darcy, because he had saved Lydia, when Mrs. Bennett didn't know he saved Lydia.  

On 1/8/2019 at 12:42 AM, Iguessnot said:

 

Brianna easily slaps and insults Jamie and Ian, yet she is civil and calm with Lizzie. Since they aren't even trying, at least they are moving the story along.

I'm on team Lizzy/Jamie/Ian.  They had no way of knowing any differently.  Lizzie's conclusions were perfectly reasonable with the knowledge she had.  Jamie and Ian had no reason to think it could be more complicated. 

They keep saying Brianna is pregnant and unmarried.  But when Fergus and Marsali were hand fasted, the rule was that if the slept together they were married.  So aren't they married now?  Or have the rules been changed to fit the plot, lol.  

Edited May 14, 2020 by Kim0820

[Camera One]

I can just imagine the planning process for this show.  So this season, we will start with X getting separated from Y.  Let's spin the wheel for the reason - kidnapping (with or without assault), being sent to prison, getting lost after reckless wander, storming away from anger due to a misunderstanding, being forced to complete your contract with an evil sea captain, or separated by 200 years?   Okay, now let's spin the wheel to find out how many episodes before they reunite for a single episode.  And now, Y gets separated from X, so let's spin the wheel again.  Oh, it's been three seasons of the same thing?  Let's introduce two new characters, Spawn of X + Y and Descendant of Crazy Psycho, and wash rinse repeat.

Well, I'm glad all the secrets came out.  I wouldn't have been able to handle multiple episodes of that.  

If Brianna wanted to blame someone, start with herself for telling her mother not to tell Jaime about Bonnet.  

Before beating Roger up, Jaime should have been wondering how Brianna's attacker would have been able to track them down at Fraser's ridge.  Considering how important revenge and closure was to him in Season 2, you'd think he would have wanted Brianna get some closure by seeing her attacker caught instead of hiding it from her.  It was all just so contrived.

Roger had a bag with him, so you'd think Ian would have looked at it before "selling" the guy to the Mohawks.

I can't believe Roger actually escaped.  That wasn't very likely.

If Roger could be sure he could come back through the stones, it wouldn't hurt to go back, visit a doctor, take a shower, and come back, maybe slightly better prepared. 

[Beeyago]

19 hours ago, Camera One said:

If Roger could be sure he could come back through the stones, it wouldn't hurt to go back, visit a doctor, take a shower, and come back, maybe slightly better prepared.

😂

[gingerella]

Och, aye, well another episode down, with some good stuff, a lot of okay stuff, and some bad stuff. Let's get to it, shall we?

Things I liked:

* The reverse psychology that Jamie was using on Brianna about not having been able to fight back enough to have escaped being killed. It was a bit brutal but I think it was warranted given how stubborn Bri is, just as much as her mother and da. I did find the back and forth convo between Jamie and Bri about rape rather like a tete a tete, the sort you have fencing or in a duel. They were sparring back and forth, 'what about this with you', 'well, what about that with you', and so forth. That conversation had a rhythm that felt like a fencing match, which I quite liked because for Jamie, he is a fighter best with swords, so it made a lot of sense that this convo felt like sword practice in its cadence. Is that a weird thing to say?

* The open dialogue between Claire and Bri re: terminating her pregnancy, and then the discussion about the slim chance that it could still be Roger's child, it was all so 20th Century and I appreciated that the Show didn't shy away from that conversation. Bri is in such an impossible situation right now - aborting would allow her to never have to live with a child that is the product of a rape, and yet it might also get rid of the last vestiges of Roger should he be dead now. It's heartbreaking.

* Also liked the reminiscing about favorite things they left behind in the 20th Century.

* This is neither like or dislike but I did like what Bri was wearing and then thought, it looks awfully like one of the main outfits Claire wore in S01/S02, didn't it?

* Jamie mentioning that Ian is smitten with Bri and Bri being grossed out was funny and showed how different their times are. "Can't ye be smitten wi cousins?" "No, it's frowned upon!" Then Ian's bended knee offer of marriage was so sweet and so in character with who Ian is. I big puffy heart Ian! And Rollo...

* Lizzie's reveal of her mistaken identity gave me chills too. What a fucked up mistake, and yet, AND YET, like so many mistakes that Claire has made, so has Bri. Why the hell didn't she run back into the inn and bring Lizzie out to meet Roger when he first appeared, and introduce them, telling her who he was to her, and that she was going off with him and not to worry? It would have been so easy to do, and would have been basic common sense. Jesus H. Roosevelt Christ, like mother like daughter.

* I appreciated that Ian made the connection that the medallion he traded Roger for would be a way for them to find the exact group of Mohawk who took Roger. Good thinking kiddo!

* I admit I got teary-eyed when the two groups split up - for the Mohawks, and for River Run.

* The reunion between Murtagh and Jocasta was sweet as well. There is a fondness there that feels real between those two characters, and we get a small glimpse into the lengths that Murtagh went to woo Ellen MacKenzie too. I wonder if Jocasta had a crush on Murtagh too? She seemed to remember everything about him. Of course Jocasta would take Bri in, but why isn't anyone wondering about Bri's very 20th Century accent? Nobody would be talking like her at that time period, they'd all be having accents from England, Scotland, Ireland, and perhaps Germany, would they not?

* A new Stone portal, in America, YES!!!! And it's active and buzzing and moaning too so it's ready for some action!

* Like pretty much all viewers of this series, I greatly miss Scotland of S01 & S02, so I greatly appreciated how the episode ended with the new Stones and the buzzing/groaning, and and a 'Will He Or Won't He' on whether Roger lays hands on the Stones. I say no, because he realized that he had two gemstones for passage through, but he'd been saving them for himself and Bri to go back if they so chose to. Now he realizes that he canna' go through without Brianna because he just loves her too much to leave her there. He must save the two gemstones for when he finds her and that will give them an option, especially now that he knows where another Stone portal is in this new land. And this also helps us realize that the time traveler whose skull Claire found earlier this season likely came through the Stones directly into the New World, and not through Scotland and then by ship to this America. So we have Stone portals now in Scotland, Jamaica, and somewhere not far from North Carolina heading north....What does it all mean though?

Things I greatly disliked:

* Everything to do with Roger being almost dragged by the Mohawk. That was brutal to watch and cringe worthy. Also, when Roger told his fellow prisoner that he planned to escape, I thought that was going to be the end of Roger and that this guy would turn on him to save himself. Because Roger and good luck don't usually go together very well....he has that in common with Jamie I think.

* After Roger escaped the Mohawk, I kept waiting for one of them to pop out from behind a tree and recapture him.

* This whole story line where Claire realizes that it was Bonnet who raped Bri but she won't tell Jamie the truth. It's yet another ridiculous plot device to get Roger beat nearly to death. Again, like mother like daughter - the Randall Fraser women just can't seem to do the right thing when they ought to, it's maddening!

Things that made me go 'Huh?':

* Why is the cabin built to the nines but there isna' barn for the horses, pigs, chickens, etc. to stable in during the winter or bad weather?!? They actually had horse blankets but no barn? WTF man? Not to confuse Shows but for gods sake, Winter Is Coming!

* What do the Mohawk horse's eat? It was Autumn and all we saw were dead leaves everywhere. What are they feeding these horses that they can walk miles a day for over 700 miles? I'd like to know...

* Roger falls down an embankment and suddenly he has the power to out run the extremely fit Mohawk warriors? Come the fuck on Show, seriously?!? He was practically dead and nearly dragged, and he bounces up from what looked like a substantial fall - and not to mention almost having his wrist severed from his arm - but he springs up like a crazy jack rabbit and evades Mohawk warriors? Ummm, okay Show, I'm hand waving so hard here I think I may have injured my own wrist! And don't say Adrenalin either!

Edited September 19, 2021 by gingerella

[Camera One]

On 9/19/2021 at 3:02 PM, gingerella said:

* Lizzie's reveal of her mistaken identity gave me chills too. What a fucked up mistake, and yet, AND YET, like so many mistakes that Claire has made, so has Bri. Why the hell didn't she run back into the inn and bring Lizzie out to meet Roger when he first appeared, and introduce them, telling her who he was to her, and that she was going off with him and not to worry? It would have been so easy to do, and would have been basic common sense. Jesus H. Roosevelt Christ, like mother like daughter.

It made no sense that Brianna wouldn't at least let Lizzie know that she would be away from the inn for awhile.  I get that they needed a misunderstanding to have this plot, but there were just too many ridiculous actions and decisions that had to align for the scenario that would have Jaime beating up Roger and sending him away before Brianna would find out.  When it's this convoluted, it's hard not to be taken out of the story completely, on top of the frustration of watching pretty much everyone do the wrong thing.  It was like a comedy of errors except not funny at all.

[SassAndSnacks]

Apologies in advance - I struggle to get behind the Brianna+Roger = One True Love.  It's all a little "meh" for me.  I watch it/read it but only to get to the next part of the story.  

On 9/19/2021 at 6:02 PM, gingerella said:

The reunion between Murtagh and Jocasta was sweet as well. There is a fondness there that feels real between those two characters, and we get a small glimpse into the lengths that Murtagh went to woo Ellen MacKenzie too. I wonder if Jocasta had a crush on Murtagh too?

I am loving the chemistry between these two.  

On 9/20/2021 at 8:24 PM, Camera One said:

It made no sense that Brianna wouldn't at least let Lizzie know that she would be away from the inn for awhile.  I get that they needed a misunderstanding to have this plot, but there were just too many ridiculous actions and decisions that had to align for the scenario that would have Jaime beating up Roger and sending him away before Brianna would find out.  When it's this convoluted, it's hard not to be taken out of the story completely, on top of the frustration of watching pretty much everyone do the wrong thing.  It was like a comedy of errors except not funny at all.

Hear hear!!  This perfectly encapsulates the nonsense.  

[Anothermi]

My. It HAS been a long time since I viewed this. I had to rewatch just to remind myself of what happened. Re-watching does have it upside. I think I appreciate this episode more because I wasn't blindsided by the twists and turns the dialog took. I could grasp what the writers were trying to convey. 

Right off the top, my favourite few seconds were of the goat kid leaping beside its mother.  Put a big smile on my face and calmed my spirit. 

For the most part I am fine with how the show runners (and writers) decided to give us each character's reactions. 

Jamie trying so hard to give support to Brianna and deciding to show (not tell) her why she shouldn't beat herself up for not fighting back. You could see the decision to take that approach on his face before he said those vile words to her.  And you could see how difficult it was for him to find the words to talk to her about Black Jack Randal's abuse. But the discussion about whether killing your abuser made the feelings go away? That was important to me. To know that by that time, getting his honour back was nothing to Jamie in contrast to the devastation Culloden unleashed. Black Jack Randal was just another casualty to him in this telling. We saw the fight where Jamie killed BJR, but at this point in Jamie's life—and even when he woke up NOT!dead—it was no longer registering as important.

I liked that Claire's entire attention and support was focused on her daughter. I even likeD Jamie's discomfort at hearing that he'd acted too hastily (defending his daughter's honour indeed!)—and the very human (but transparent) attempts at dodging responsibility for what he'd done!  But all in all I found those parts to be the weakest for Jamie's actor, Sam H. He rarely gives  a bad performance, but I found this section a little... weak?  Never mind.  He'll be back on form by next episode I'm sure. 

The only other part I felt fell flat—and one the writer's gave Brianna—was the declaration that Jamie didn't get to be more angry/upset than she was. While it rings true as a feeling/reaction. It felt clunky to just say it.  I loved that Murtagh got out of the way as soon as he realized what had occurred. And he tried to take Young Ian with him, but Brianna was right about making Ian stay. 

I liked the nightmare parallel: Brianna's with Roger's face morphing into Bonnet's face—just like Jamie's with Claire's face morphing into BJRs.

I think Brianna and Claire's goodbye might have been a parallel too, but can't remember what Claire said to Brianna before she left to find Jamie. Does anyone remember what Claire said? Brianna said to Claire this time:

Bree: I'm so sorry, Mama.

Claire: For what?

Bree: For making you leave me. 

When I heard this bit I received it as Brianna giving Claire the good-bye she would have wanted to hear. Now I'm not sure that she didn't receive it. 

I was happy with the scene at River Run. And to see Jocasta and Murtagh interact. 

But the show had to end on a cliff hanger (sorry for my part in prolonging it's resolution, @gingerella). Will Roger go back?  I doubt it. I think the point was to show us that he still had the two stones and remind him they were for both Brianna and himself. 

Oddly, I'd completely forgotten about the New World Portal so when I heard the buzzing sound I though "Oh good! Roger's going to get honey to eat! (plus a few stings) 🤣🤣. D'oh.

The other cliff hanger is that Roger's escape will make finding him a lot more difficult!  Of course, it could be misdirection and he get's captured again, but now he (and we) know there IS a time portal in the New World so they can quickly get out of whatever danger presents itself at-or-near the end of this Season. (burning down the house?)

 

 

 

[gingerella]

20 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Oddly, I'd completely forgotten about the New World Portal so when I heard the buzzing sound I though "Oh good! Roger's going to get honey to eat! (plus a few stings) 🤣🤣. D'oh.

Ha! I had forgotten about that, but I had the same exact reaction to the buzzing! I thought, Oh No, Roger's going to be set upon now but a huge swarm of angry bees?!? Like minds and all that...

In trying to figure out what multiple portals around the world mean, I guess it's as simple as this: many cultures found a way to create, or find, time portals in their local areas and they were looked upon as otherworldly - which they no doubt are - and something not to be trifled with. Something to be scared of, and revered, and only to be used in certain situations. What it means in terms of this story though, I'm still not sure. Does it mean all time travelers are somehow linked or related? They must share something in common since we know that not everyone can hear their buzzing, but we do know that Claire, Geillis, Brianna, and Roger have something that links them together that they are all able to hear the Stones calling them. And we suspect that Monsieur Raymond was a time traveler so how does he connect to this group? Are they all related by kin, unbeknownst to them or us? Or is it something else that links them together as time travelers???

21 hours ago, Anothermi said:

And you could see how difficult it was for him to find the words to talk to her about Black Jack Randal's abuse. But the discussion about whether killing your abuser made the feelings go away? That was important to me. To know that by that time, getting his honour back was nothing to Jamie in contrast to the devastation Culloden unleashed. Black Jack Randal was just another casualty to him in this telling. We saw the fight where Jamie killed BJR, but at this point in Jamie's life—and even when he woke up NOT!dead—it was no longer registering as important.

I'm going to have to go back and re watch this exchange because I didn't pick up on this at all. I find it difficult to think that Jamie wouldn't feel relief at finally knowing he dealt BJR his last breath given when he'd done to Jamie. To me, that's a separate issue to Culloden in that I don't think Jamie would ever have been eager or happy to have Culloden happen because he knew from Claire what the cost would be. And he'd been prepared to try and avert Culloden for two years, since he'd gotten together with Claire. So to me, his desire to kill BJR was a completely separate issue from Culloden.

[Anothermi]

2 hours ago, gingerella said:

I'm going to have to go back and re watch this exchange because I didn't pick up on this at all.

Below I what I based my thoughts on. I bolded the part I hadn't really taken in the first time I watched.  I got this from closed captioning: 

Bri:  Did you kill him finally?

Jamie: Why are ye asking, lass?

Bri: I've been wondering if it would help if I killed the man who did this to me.

Jamie: And ye'll have killed a man before?

Bri: Think I can't, don't you?

Jamie: And what will ye get back?

Bri: Mama told me you tried to kill Jack Randall in Paris in a duel. What did you try to get back?

Jamie: My honor.

Bri: You don't think my honor is worth trying to get back?

Jamie: I think ye would get yerself killed if ye tried to do something foolish like that.

Bri: At least I'd take him with me.

Jamie: I did kill Randall, finally, at Culloden. I awoke on the moor wi' his corpse on top of me.

Bri: Did it help?

Jamie: Vengeance didna seem so important then. There were hundreds dead upon the moor and I thought I'd be one of them. But he was. So... I left him to God.

Bri: I keep thinking, if he was dead, maybe I could forget.  

Jamie: Ye wilna forget, but time will let you heal.

I mentioned that we'd seen the fight between Jamie and Black Jack back in whatever Season that was. At THAT time I posted that Jamie had achieved his goals. He'd got his vengeance and that is what we saw. What was important to me in the above version is that it shows how Jamie felt about it after he survived Culloden. I drew my conclusion from those bolded words. 

 

On 9/19/2021 at 3:02 PM, gingerella said:

I did find the back and forth convo between Jamie and Bri about rape rather like a tete a tete, the sort you have fencing or in a duel. They were sparring back and forth, 'what about this with you', 'well, what about that with you', and so forth. That conversation had a rhythm that felt like a fencing match...

Now that I've got it written out I can see the point you were making. 
 

[gingerella]

8 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

I mentioned that we'd seen the fight between Jamie and Black Jack back in whatever Season that was. At THAT time I posted that Jamie had achieved his goals. He'd got his vengeance and that is what we saw. What was important to me in the above version is that it shows how Jamie felt about it after he survived Culloden. I drew my conclusion from those bolded words. 

 

On 9/19/2021 at 3:02 PM, gingerella said:

I did find the back and forth convo between Jamie and Bri about rape rather like a tete a tete, the sort you have fencing or in a duel. They were sparring back and forth, 'what about this with you', 'well, what about that with you', and so forth. That conversation had a rhythm that felt like a fencing match...

Now that I've got it written out I can see the point you were making. 

And now that you've written out that exchange I see what you see as well. I suppose Jamie was so all-consumed with exacting his revenge on BJR, and with good reason, I'd have felt the same way. I think he may have felt differently if he killed BJR in a different way, in a different time, but that it happened at Culloden and Jamie survived it, that was the win, to me, so to speak. And that he gets reunited with Claire despite having to wait 20 years to do so, that was the cherry on the sundae for Jamie. He got his life back, the one he had before BJR violated and tortured him and tried to essentially pollute his life with and love for Claire. Those two last items were what BJR seemed to really want in the end - to break Jamie to the point where he could no longer give or receive love from this woman that BJR hated. In the end, it's easier for Jamie to not care so much about the revenge part because of where the act took place, and because he now has not only Claire, but also their daughter with him. He is the victor. For Brianna though, he is right, she'd likely die trying to kill someone as ruthless and cunning as Bonnet, and to gain what exactly? Though that said, I know if I was Brianna, I would never feel truly safe until/unless I knew this monster was dead.

Glad writing that exchange out helped you see it as the fencing sparring that I felt when I saw it!

[Anothermi]

2 hours ago, gingerella said:

In trying to figure out what multiple portals around the world mean, I guess it's as simple as this: many cultures found a way to create, or find, time portals in their local areas and they were looked upon as otherworldly - which they no doubt are - and something not to be trifled with. Something to be scared of, and revered, and only to be used in certain situations. What it means in terms of this story though, I'm still not sure. Does it mean all time travelers are somehow linked or related? They must share something in common since we know that not everyone can hear their buzzing, but we do know that Claire, Geillis, Brianna, and Roger have something that links them together that they are all able to hear the Stones calling them. And we suspect that Monsieur Raymond was a time traveler so how does he connect to this group? Are they all related by kin, unbeknownst to them or us? Or is it something else that links them together as time travelers???

This is becoming the big question. In the opening credits for this Season we saw men dressed in furs and skins piling stones in a circle around  a standing stone and then the ritual being enacted with the women dancing around the Standing Stone, fires lit at the base of all the stones (both the standing one and the piles) and the full moon. Claire gave us a voice over at that time:

CLAIRE: For centuries humans have held an endless fascination with circles, attributing meaning where they are found.

CLAIRE: From the eternal rotation of the planets around the sun to the movement of clock hands, to a simple wedding band. 

CLAIRE: And I more than most know full well just how a circle can affect one's life.  

Or death.

That last phrase "Or death."  was basically a segue to an empty noose and the lead in to the hanging of Hayes and the introduction of Bonnet. I'm failing to link that last bit with the rest of the voice over. Mostly because it doesn't really link the two events together in any clear way. It seemed to exist just to be a segue. 

But the voice over suggests a through-line between the time travel and the circles and the ancientness of the rituals.  I'm just not convinced the show or the books will satisfy our need-to-know how they come together. 

It's 10 episodes in and we finally get connected back to that New World Portal (as I've named it). The Standing Stone is there although the piled up pillars are stunted versions of what we first saw. But the power is still present.

I do hope we get answers to your questions.