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S04.E10: The Deep Heart's Core

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Jamie and Claire keep secrets from one another as they try to help Brianna process her recent trauma. But the secrets they keep cause a bigger familial rift once they are revealed.

Reminder: The is the book talk thread. This can include spoilers for ALL the books. If you wish to remain unspoiled for any of the books, please leave now and head to the No Book Talk episode thread.

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Please please do not let them be setting it up for Bonnet to kill Murtagh. That's a change from the books I'm delighted with, and we just got him back and I don't want to lose him. 

I'm also happy that we do get to see Lord John at River Run. I was worried that wouldn't make it into the show. 

I'm also thinking what we saw of Roger at the stones at the end of this episode might be the "moment of choice" for Roger to stay vs returning to his time. Maybe that's coming here instead of after they get him from the Mohawks. 

There are only three episodes left, so they need to get moving!

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I heard Duncan Lacroix in an interview say

Spoiler

That Murtagh is in season 5. Also that he has a love interest this season! #MurtaghnJocasta4eva! It looks like Murtagh may kill Bonnet early! 

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LOVE THIS SHOW!!! It’s such a treat to wake up early on Sunday and watch it with my coffee and oatmeal. 

Another fine episode, well-acted by all. I’m savoring every minute. 

Does anyone know if they’ve started filming next season yet? Can’t stand another overly long Droughtlander. 

(P.S. Best wishes to Caitriona tonight at the Golden Globes!)

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What the heck was that ending?!?

 

5 hours ago, Crankybroad said:

I'm also thinking what we saw of Roger at the stones at the end of this episode might be the "moment of choice" for Roger to stay vs returning to his time. Maybe that's coming here instead of after they get him from the Mohawks.

Well, they are still planning on more time with the Mohawks, right?  I mean, Ian's story line is important.  Also, Ian already alluded to it.

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Good episode.  I finally don't hate Sophie, it's official.  I am still not happy with her monotone, wooden delivery, but otherwise, she's fine.

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1 hour ago, cardigirl said:

LOVE THIS SHOW!!! It’s such a treat to wake up early on Sunday and watch it with my coffee and oatmeal. 

Another fine episode, well-acted by all. I’m savoring every minute. 

Does anyone know if they’ve started filming next season yet? Can’t stand another overly long Droughtlander. 

(P.S. Best wishes to Caitriona tonight at the Golden Globes!)

Season 5 filming is supposed to start in February.    I expect they will be filming into the fall, so we likely won't see it some time in 2020.  

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Three episodes left. 

They have LJG, but this change of Jamie sending Murtagh to retrieve Bonnet. So are we going to miss the whole Brianna visit to Bonnet and the explosion? (I'm fine with this - Just don't kill Murtagh!)

We have to lose Ian, so we will have that and the set-up once they find him. 

The baby will likely be born. 

Will we still have the weeks after the baby where Roger is trying to make up his mind and finally shows up at the ridge? Any time for their relationship after he comes back?

I will happily miss the priest and the woman burning. Don't need to see that in any form. 

I am really going to miss Young Ian. I am loving him so much more in the show than in the book. I really adore that actor in that role. And I'll miss Rollo!

Bur I'm already tired of seeing Roger brutalized. I love both book and show Roger. 

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4 hours ago, cardigirl said:

LOVE THIS SHOW!!! It’s such a treat to wake up early on Sunday and watch it with my coffee and oatmeal. 

Another fine episode, well-acted by all. I’m savoring every minute. 

Does anyone know if they’ve started filming next season yet? Can’t stand another overly long Droughtlander. 

(P.S. Best wishes to Caitriona tonight at the Golden Globes!)

I woke up early this morning & said to my hubby "I love Sundays" as tonight we get to watch Outlander...now I should get out of here & not be TOO spoiled before I watch! So not looking forward to Droughtlander-how did you all survive it so many times over these years (question to the fans that have been watching from the beginning)?

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Have not read any comments so here it goes:  I thought the acting was spot on.  I just did not like all the 'slapping' going on.  No one wanted to take any responsibility in the 'The miscommunication" well except Lizzie.  I really do like Lizzie.  Brianna's comment 'you have no right to be madder/upset about this than I do when Jamie found out it was Bonnett was great.  But I don't feel Claire had any right to tell Brianna about Jamie's rape by BJR.  That was not her story to tell.  I am ticked off at Claire for not defending Jamie when Brianna said she did not trust him and Ian to do the right thing when tring to find Roger.  Claire you let me down.  It felt like she was driving a wedge between father and daughter.  I believe Claire feels Brianna is all her.  She may have been happy that Frank raised Brianna as his own but she was quick to point out that she was HER daughter.  Now that Jamie is a part of Brianna's life I feel Claire may have some mixed feeling about that.  The big thing I must keep in mind the show was set in the 1700's.  It is the 1700's.   PEACE

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I just saw it.  Whoo hooooo!  Well done show!  There was a lot of shouting at the TV as well as hugging myself with glee during the first watch. Now I'm off to watch again.

I love this show.

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I loved 99% of this episode. As was discussed at length in the buik thread about Jamie being enraged over Brianna having premarital sex/thinking she was handfast to her rapist-well Jamie isn’t a 20th century man, and I didn’t have issues with it in the buik. But on the show? After that emotional and well acted scene where Jamie convinces Brianna that the rape wasn’t her fault? Schelhaas could have left that whole line from Jamie believing Brianna about her rape. Which led to her slapping him. They could still have kept his rage at himself and toward Bonnett. The line about Jamie thinking Brianna had lied was SO UNNECESSARY.

And this should probably go in the Unpopular thread, but Brianna can just stop with her rage at both Wee Ian and Jamie-to the extent that she’s acting like what they did with Roger was done with the knowledge of who Roger was. They didn’t. It’s all on Lizzie, If blame is to go around. And all she got was a “You should be” from Brianna when Lizzie said she was sorry.😒😒😒😒

Sam was wonderful this episode. It boggles my mind why he hasn’t won any awards with his performances. 

I enjoyed the scenes with Claire and Brianna when Claire was telling her about her options-and willing to conduct the abortion if that’s what she wanted.

No way will Roger go through the stones. Either he’ll stop or the Mohawk will yank him back.

I can’t recall if Wee Ian proposed to Brianna before she found out what he and Jamie had done with Roger in the buik, but his proposal in the show was a bad choice, considering that  Brianna has decided that Roger’s fate was an intentional EVUHL plan and that Jamie is an unconscionable “savage” and monster, instead of being given WRONG information. Yeah, TOTALLY #TEAMJAMIE here.

I did appreciate that Claire didn’t jump on the it’s all your fault, Jamie! bandwagon. And I thought it was perfect how she let Jamie know that Bonnett was the one who raped Brianna.

Wasn't happy that Brianna couldn’t or wouldn’t even consider why/how Jamie did what he did. 

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13 minutes ago, GingerMarie said:

  I am ticked off at Claire for not defending Jamie when Brianna said she did not trust him and Ian to do the right thing when tring to find Roger. 

And this. Like I said, they didn’t know that Roger wasn’t the one who had raped her, and she’s acting like they did and sold him to the Mohawk on a whim. And she made it worse for me by telling Jamie she would hold him to his word-as if he’s not an honorable man? STFU, Bree.

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14 minutes ago, GingerMarie said:

Have not read any comments so here it goes:  I thought the acting was spot on.  I just did not like all the 'slapping' going on.  No one wanted to take any responsibility in the 'The miscommunication" well except Lizzie.  I really do like Lizzie.  Brianna's comment 'you have no right to be madder/upset about this than I do when Jamie found out it was Bonnett was great.  But I don't feel Claire had any right to tell Brianna about Jamie's rape by BJR.  That was not her story to tell.  I am ticked off at Claire for not defending Jamie when Brianna said she did not trust him and Ian to do the right thing when tring to find Roger.  Claire you let me down.  It felt like she was driving a wedge between father and daughter.  I believe Claire feels Brianna is all her.  She may have been happy that Frank raised Brianna as his own but she was quick to point out that she was HER daughter.  Now that Jamie is a part of Brianna's life I feel Claire may have some mixed feeling about that.  The big thing I must keep in mind the show was set in the 1700's.  It is the 1700's.   PEACE

Yes to so many things you said.  And the slapping bothered me, as well!

Reading the books, I also thought sometimes that Claire viewed Brianna more as hers than as Jamie's.  I suppose that's true to an extent, as Claire was actually a part of Brianna's life and Jamie is new.  Claire and Bree will always have that bond, and Jamie and Bree have to figure out their relationship.  Still, it does sometimes seem like she feels she has a "right" to more of Bree than Jamie.

I suspect Claire just didn't know what to do or how to help.  None of them do, really.  Everything is just so messed up.  I would say comedy of errors, but there's nothing funny going on right now.

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What a great episode!  We got lots of drama and still some quiet homey times.  I definitely think Roger will be yanked back by the Mohawks, just like Claire was by the British soldiers in season one.  

Love that we are getting Lord John and River Run.  Really hoping Murtagh wasn’t saved just to die next week with Bonnet!  

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One of my favorite scenes this episode was when Claire said to Jamie, “You told me you hit a tree,” and he replied, “no, you said that and I let you believe it.” And then Ian offering to marry Brie and Jamie telling him to get off his knees! LOVED IT!!! 

I’ve no idea if it matches the book or not, but I was highly entertained! 👏

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I loved that, too!  It’s been a while since I read the book so not sure it went down like that.  I do love that they kept Ian’s proposal.  I am going to miss him so much!  

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So we're going with Brianna entering soap opera villain territory slapping everyone around because she doesn't like their answers?  Okay then.  She loses the high ground she has in yelling about Jamie or Ian acting violently or impulsively in using that as her goto.

I like that the show has tried to streamline the Great Misunderstanding down to its core without a lot of Jamie wandering around screaming about Bree's maidenhead or calling her wanton.  I like that it cut Jamie armtwisting Ian into an idiotic proposal and let it be his idea as recompense.  I realize that it's an uphill struggle to make anything palatable out of the ridiculous mess that it is on the page and that they also have to show that she can be just as hot tempered and pigheaded as Jamie can be.  Her line that Jamie doesn't get to be madder about this than she is was pretty terrific in light of his slamming around furniture, but I also can't even fault Jamie too much for being confused and going "Wait a minute.  The only story you've told so far is about a rapist.  We acted on what information we were given.  Only now you're mentioning this second guy you'd previous said went back to Scotland?"  Nor can I really fault Claire for instinctively wanting to side with her child because, hey, it's in the wiring and she's probably wrestling with her own guilt issues about her own withholding information.  Sure, it would have been nice had she interjected when Brianna was saying she couldn't trust Jamie or Ian's judgment (although she's probably right that Roger isn't going to see them after what happened and immediately think they've come to rescue him), but maybe she figures Bree's in no mood to hear it and it's best to let it go for now.  Did love Ian and Murtagh pointedly looking anywhere but at Jamie as he was left floundering in arguing first with Brianna and then Claire.

The show version is apparently dropping all pretense that any of them think they're going to be able to go rescue Roger, get back to Bree, and still have time to send her back through the stones before the birth with Claire remarking that they probably won't be back before the baby is born.  So they all know starting off that Bree's stuck there for good as it will be another whole book before they come up with their genetic theory for time travel and it does color the ultimatum they'll be presenting Roger with.    I'm guessing the show is saving the angsting over that for after they rescue Roger, but right now it feels a bit underplayed.

I'm also not a huge fan of Bree just throwing it out there that Claire told her all about Black Jack either.  At least book Bree offers that Claire told her before they ever considered the possibility that either of them would be time traveling or that Bree might meet Jamie someday.  I believe they still thought Jamie hadn't survived Culloden at that point, but it's still not her story to tell.  Jamie rolls with it pretty well and I do like that the show at least gave him some resolution on whether he'd actually killed Black Jack or not while saying in the end it didn't matter, but it's still unfair to put him in that position in the first place.  I've always had mixed feelings about his manhandling his recently raped daughter to prove a point to her, but it was handled about as well as it could have been, I guess.

Roger escaping only to run smack into a before unknown circle of stones played out pretty much the same as it did in the book, which means he's not going anywhere.  Brianna's "well then" smirk over Murtagh and Jocasta's weird flirting over reminiscing about his striking out with her grandmother was a hoot.

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11 hours ago, Crankybroad said:

Please please do not let them be setting it up for Bonnet to kill Murtagh. That's a change from the books I'm delighted with, and we just got him back and I don't want to lose him. 

I'm also happy that we do get to see Lord John at River Run. I was worried that wouldn't make it into the show. 

I'm also thinking what we saw of Roger at the stones at the end of this episode might be the "moment of choice" for Roger to stay vs returning to his time. Maybe that's coming here instead of after they get him from the Mohawks. 

There are only three episodes left, so they need to get moving!

Maybe we’ll see him spit back out here instead. After all, there are only certain times of year when people can pass through and I don’t think they have really articulated that part in the show.

I was happy to see Bree’s temper finally. I am not a fan of Book Bree but Show Bree, although she’s stubborn, doesn’t seem as temperamental as I always read her to be.

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1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

Roger escaping only to run smack into a before unknown circle of stones played out pretty much the same as it did in the book, which means he's not going anywhere.

That (the stones) was in the book???  Ok, I totally missed that (I've only read the book once).  I just remember him running from the Mohawks but really just running around in circles unable to escape.  Once this season is over, I will definitely be rereading Drums.

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Yep.  He stumbled upon the stones during his escape and if I remember correctly, that's where the Mohawk recaptured him.  He mentions it to Claire and Jamie when they're explaining the Brianna situation and how it's waaay too late to try to get her either back to the stones in Scotland or the cave in Jamaica, but he's a little fuzzy on where they are exactly and they have to conclude she's too close to birthing to risk trying to get her there.  Roger will refind them during his walkabout and hang out there for awhile as he's trying to decide to stay or go.

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This was a really good episode, and finally the actors playing Ian and Brianna are growing on me.

One small annoyance: whenever the family is sitting around the table sharing good times, there is music that plays that sounds like it's right out of an episode of Little House on the Prairie. It's treacly sweet and takes me right out of the episode.  I really wish they'd stop using it. 

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THE GOOD

That father-daughter talk between Jamie and Brianna was everything.  I was actually angry at Jamie when he “blamed” Brianna for her rape and then suggested she was lying about it – even though I’ve read the book and I knew what he was doing.  It’s such a great scene and they played it well.  I love that moment of realization by Bree that there really was no way she could have fought Bonnet off.  And I loved the line, “Would you think yourself a coward because you could not fight off a wolf with your bare hands?”  It’s a great line in the moment and it’s a wee Easter egg for readers because Claire DID have to fight off a wolf with her bare hands back in Book 1.

At first I was shocked and disapproving when Brianna mentioned Jamie’s having been raped.  I don’t recall that from the book (I don’t recall Brianna knowing those intimate details of the Jamie/Jack Randall story). But I have to let that go because I LOVED what followed.  Jamie’s honesty about what happened to him and his telling her that no, you can’t ever forget it but you can move on, was a terrifically touching scene.

The best line in the show (for me) was Brianna telling Jamie he does NOT get to be more angry than her (about what happened to Roger). In the afterword they said that line was not from the book and the writer had to fight for it.  Isn’t that funny? 

Actually that whole argument in the cabin after Brianna (and Claire) learn the truth is excellent.  So is the follow-up discussion outside by firelight (though WHY they are sitting outside is never really made clear.)  The dialog and the delivery are just crackling good.

The dream sequence was a terrific addition (I don’t think it’s in the book.) It’s the kind of thing that works better visually than on paper.  I thought it was a excellent narrative solution to the question of how Brianna finds out what happened to Roger (Lizzy tells her the truth, hoping the truth will stop her nightmares).  In the book I think it was Brianna’s portrait of Roger that causes the truth to come out. In fact, now that I think of it, I have a mental picture of Book!Jamie admitting “sheepishly” that he’d sold Roger to the Indians.  “Sheepishly!” Ugh.  Yeah I prefer Jamie’s chair-throwing anger and frustration and Brianna’s retort instead.

They did a good job of communicating the passage of time.  Roger says “It’s been a week since I was sold to these bastards” which is consistent with the condition of his bruises.  Given his estimate of 10 miles a day that means they aren’t THAT far away when Jamie and Claire start after him.  Since he gets away and heads back toward the Ridge it makes it plausible that Jamie and Claire WILL be able to catch up with him.

There is a surprising amount of humor in this episode, given the events.  Jamie’s reaction to Ian’s proposal to Brianna (“Get off yer knees ye idjit!”) had me laughing.  So too did the following exchange:

Jamie:  “You told me he’d gone back.  How was I to know?  You KNEW it was Stephen Bonnet but ye said naught.

Claire (coldly):  You told me you hit a tree.

Jaime (sputtering): No, YOU said it.  I just let you believe it.”

Another funny exchange is when Jamie asks Brianna “Can ye not be smitten with cousins in your time?” “It’s not encouraged” she replies. It’s doubly funny because just the week before we heard the story of Jamie’s having been smitten with his cousin, Dougal’s daughter. 

I love that we got another montage of Happy Family Fraser Time, this one complete with a cavorting baby goat and peaceful trading with the neighboring Indians.  I also enjoyed the clothes-folding scene where Claire and Brianna compare notes on what they miss culminating with “Toilets that flush!” 

I liked the discussions of the dangers of trying to pass through the stones with an infant.  It adds yet another bit of urgency to the decision that Brianna has to make.

I love the show’s adaptation of Murtagh’s role.  What a lovely reunion scene between Jocasta and him.

Roger has two gems in his hand at the end.  TWO.  I wasn’t clear that Bonnet had given him two, even though he asked for them.  That makes his breakdown at the stones all the more poignant.  It’s like he’s looking at Brianna’s ticket home while he stands there considering abandoning her.

 

THE BAD

The first thing I listed above as “good” is the father-daughter talk between Jamie and Brianna but it actually starts off badly.  I hate it when Jamie presumptuously states that “I’ll see you married” even though I know that in his mind – his 18thcentury mind – that’s the only possible solution and it’s a kindness he means to offer.  Then I hate Brianna saying (after clarifying that she won’t marry anyone else because it’s Roger she loves) that Roger “won’t want me now after what’s happened.”  That sentiment might makes sense coming from an 18th century woman but it sounded weird coming from a child of the 1960s.  I guess she means that he won’t want her if she’s carrying Bonnet’s child but I still got this weird, Victorian, “I am soiled goods” vibe that felt wrong for 20th century Brianna.

I’m going to have to hand-wave like crazy to accept the notion that Roger could escape from the Mohawk like that.  They are experienced trackers who live by hunting.  Roger is an exhausted, battered, 20th century historian.  How could he possibly give them the slip in the woods? 

On a similar note – those Indians must really suck at tying knots because Roger’s right hand slips right out of his “handcuffs” when he falls.  The left takes more effort to come free but it still does.  I guess we can hand-wave that they were snug at the beginning of the march but loosened over time

Jamie sends Murtagh to look for Bonnet saying “Bring him to me in secret.  I’m gonna kill him.”  Really Jamie?  How is THAT supposed to work?  Bonnet is a killer and a LOT younger then Murtagh and he has a ship full of pirates who work for him.  How exactly is Murtagh supposed to bring him to you?  That makes no sense AND it hints at some off-book adventures for Murtagh to come.  Do we really have time for that?

Really show?  Another cliffhanger? You’re gonna leave us hanging with Roger’s hand inches from the American stones?  Really?   

 

THE UGLY

The Brianna/Jamie fight. Ugh.  He basically calls her a slut and she resorts to physical violence. Twice.  (She punches Ian in the nose, drawing blood, after slapping Jamie.) 

 

OTHER

Did you notice that one of the Indians is wearing a red coat?  I guess we can assume he traded for it with a British soldier (or, more likely, a deserter).  Or he killed a soldier and took it.  Still it’s an interesting choice of garb for an Indian.  A bit bright, don’t you think?  Perhaps he only wears it when they are on trading trips and he leaves it off when hunting.

 

UNANSWERED QUESTIONS

Did anyone else see the wheels turning in Jocasta’s head once Brianna’s situation had been made clear? I would like to think that she immediately began thinking of how she could help.  But she’s a MacKenzie, ye ken?  I just knew from the look on her face that she was thinking how best to turn this situation to her advantage – thinking of eligible men who might be willing to “take” Brianna in return for Brianna being named heir to the estate (since Jamie refused the position).  I do NOT recall if that is what happened in the book but just LOOK at Jocasta’s face in that last shot.  The wheels are turning.

Edited by WatchrTina
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What I want to know is, where are those stones located in 20th Century America? Is there a highway there? A shopping center? Someone's backyard? Is it a National Park Service Monument? Do you only hear the buzz if the stones still exist in multiple planes, so that they're operational? What if they exist up to a point, but not in the time period to which you want to travel?

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3 hours ago, morgan said:

I definitely think Roger will be yanked back by the Mohawks, just like Claire was by the British soldiers in season one.  

Oh gosh I hope not.  I want it to be Roger's decision to stay.  That being said, I feel certain he is going to fall into the hands of the Mohawk again so then he'll really be kicking himself for not leaving.

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1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

 

 

 

1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

Jamie sends Murtagh to look for Bonnet saying “Bring him to me in secret.  I’m gonna kill him.”  Really Jamie?  How is THAT supposed to work?  Bonnet is a killer and a LOT younger then Murtagh and he has a ship full of pirates who work for him.  How exactly is Murtagh supposed to bring him to you?  That makes no sense AND it hints at some off-book adventures for Murtagh to come.  Do we really have time for that? 

 

My feelings of 410 pretty much mirror yours. This episode, however, is a prime example of plot driving chracter, even though the show seems to thrive when it's the reverse.

 

For example, Jamie tells Bree in the opening scene that he learned that revenge-killing BJR was not the path to his healing after Wentworth. This convo is just a day or 2 after Jamie exacted revenge on Bree's [falsely-identified] rapist without her knowledge. Then all hell breaks loose and Jamie is drowning in guilt over beating Roger and keeping it from Bree and Claire. So what does he do? He asks Murtagh to go get Bonnet so he can exact revenge again, and keeps it from Bree and Claire.

 

I'm getting whiplash from this.

Edited by rxpert14 · Reason: Removed duplicate quote
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On 1/6/2019 at 4:20 PM, WatchrTina said:

Did anyone else see the wheels turning in Jocasta’s head once Brianna’s situation had been made clear? I would like to think that she immediately began thinking of how she could help.  But she’s a MacKenzie, ye ken?  I just knew from the look on her face that she was thinking how best to turn this situation to her advantage – thinking of eligible men who might be willing to “take” Brianna in return for Brianna being named heir to the estate (since Jamie refused the position).  I do NOT recall if that is what happened in the book but just LOOK at Jocasta’s face in that last shot.  The wheels are turning.

That's exactly the situation in the book.  Jocasta immediately starts parading Brianna out to every bachelor she can think of as the heiress to River Run, basically blowing off all protests to the contrary.  It's how we end up with the wonderful Brianna-Lord John scenes that culminate in her trying to blackmail him into an engagement to make it stop.

If I'm hazarding a guess, the show is going to split book Lord John's story between him and Murtagh, giving Murtagh all of the trying to track down Bonnet plot and maybe being the one to take Brianna to see him in jail while John hangs out with her at River Run.  Or maybe not.  But good point that Jamie is still trying to clean up the fallout from already having tried to take revenge without Bree's knowledge and now he's going to do it again, only this time with the right guy?  It also doesn't make sense that he tells Murtagh to go find him just as he's setting off on a trip that they all acknowledge could take "up to 4 months" depending on how far north they have to trail off after the Mohawk.  So Murtagh's going to go to Wilmington, find Bonnet, and then what?  Tie him up indefinitely?  Tell him to meet back up in a couple of months' time because someone wants to see him?  I probably could have bought it had Jamie just told Murtagh to keep tabs on him until he gets back, but even then we're still left with the original problem of Jamie again going behind Bree's back.

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I do like that Bree mentions they are handfast. She didn't do that in the book. Jamie can understand that, but I can't believe there's not a priest or reverend that couldn't legit marry them there when they were in Wilmington. Big plot hole via Diana. 

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1 hour ago, WatchrTina said:

Oh gosh I hope not.  I want it to be Roger's decision to stay.  That being said, I feel certain he is going to fall into the hands of the Mohawk again so then he'll really be kicking himself for not leaving.

Yes I would like it to be his decision too so maybe you are right.  But damn if I were him after all he had been through I would probably not even stop to think!  

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Can I say I love how honest and directly Claire and Bree discussed terminating the pregnancy? And their reminincising about things they miss from the 20th century, so SWEET! 

I don’t condone violence but I understand why Bree slapped Jaime. He did not get to be more angry than her. Young Ian was just doing as he was told so he gets a pass (don’t slap Ian). Yes to Claire comforting her child. That was a good moment. 

Poor Lizzie the guilt she must be feeling. Brianna had a point- if Roger doesn’t see Claire he will run. We also remember that Bree is from the 20th century, “selling people” after they commit a crime isn’t a natural response, so even though they believed Roger raped Brianna, selling him wouldn’t have been the right course of action (in her mind). I’m also giving Bree a pass on her righteous indignation due to PTSD, pregnancy, adjusting to the 18th century and learning Roger really does love her and didn’t go back to 1971.

 

Shallow bus- Richard Rankin is attractive but Roger never is to me (not counting his scrapes and bruises). 

 

I dont have a problem with Brianna being told about Jaime’s rape. Assuming Claire told her after her own rape it was to help her not be ashamed. I think that Claire wouldn’t have done so if she thought Jaime would have a problem with it. 

 

39 minutes ago, Atlanta said:

I do like that Bree mentions they are handfast. She didn't do that in the book. Jamie can understand that, but I can't believe there's not a priest or reverend that couldn't legit marry them there when they were in Wilmington. Big plot hole via Diana. 

I think we are supposed to believe they were over come with lust, handfasted to get it on and fully intended to get married officially in the near future (like within the week). 

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Although it was NOT officially illegal to teach slaves to read at this point, even when it was officially illegal owners did it because they wanted their slaves to handle bookkeeping and administrative work. The entire time I was thinking “Can you let Ulysesess do his job and read the letter?!!” The look on his (Ulyssesses) face....

 

Editing the post because something just came to me-

 

If Roger considers the handfasting binding and that he is really married to and committed to Brianna, then by the standards of 1971 AND the 18th century he is the legal father and responsible for any children she births.  Unless he wants to divorce her for adultery (which I don’t think even Roger with his slut shaming ways would consider the fact that she was raped adultery); then any child of hers is his child morally and legally.

 

Does anyone ever point this out to him in the book?

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3 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Although it was NOT officially illegal to teach slaves to read at this point, even when it was officially illegal owners did it because they wanted their slaves to handle bookkeeping and administrative work. The entire time I was thinking “Can you let Ulysesess do his job and read the letter?!!” The look on his (Ulyssesses) face....

 

Editing the post because something just came to me-

 

If Roger considers the handfasting binding and that he is really married to and committed to Brianna, then by the standards of 1971 AND the 18th century he is the legal father and responsible for any children she births.  Unless he wants to divorce her for adultery (which I don’t think even Roger with his slut shaming ways would consider the fact that she was raped adultery); then any child of hers is his child morally and legally.

 

Does anyone ever point this out to him in the book?

I thought the book mentioned handfasting was temporary, valid for a year and a day until the couple either had a more formal ceremony before clergy or ended it permanently. I don't know how that squares with actual handfasting practices at the time, and how abandonment worked into it or with the legitimacy of children.

 

Didn't Brianna know about what Jamie did to Black Jack in the books?  I think it was when Jenny was showing Brianna the letters Jamie had written, Jenny made a comment about Jamie having trouble with his hand from that time with Randall. Her casualness of tone in mentioning it made Brianna assume that Jenny didn't know the true nature of what had happened to Jamie. Who knows that that is a correct assumption on Brianna's part, as Ian knew about it, but maybe he never told Jenny.

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Dropping in here to say that Diana is mean- must she make all her leading men suffer so much? 

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8 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Did anyone else see the wheels turning in Jocasta’s head once Brianna’s situation had been made clear? I would like to think that she immediately began thinking of how she could help.  But she’s a MacKenzie, ye ken?  I just knew from the look on her face that she was thinking how best to turn this situation to her advantage – thinking of eligible men who might be willing to “take” Brianna in return for Brianna being named heir to the estate (since Jamie refused the position).  I do NOT recall if that is what happened in the book but just LOOK at Jocasta’s face in that last shot.  The wheels are turning.

I thought & said this exact thing to my hubby. But then he saw John in the next epi bit & thinks John will want to marry her for sure-because she is Jamie's daughter!

Edited by Cdh20
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8 hours ago, bettername2come said:

My biggest takeaway of the episode is that Murtagh should marry Jocasta instead of Duncan. We haven't had Duncan on TV have we?

I think this is definitely going to happen. There's no Duncan on the show and it would be perfect to have Murtagh fill that role here. (I actually wonder if they would even give him Duncan's awkward confession to Jamie about his virginity/impotence). He can still be one of the regulators too.

By the way, I like Ian SO much better on the show than I ever did in the books. I'm gonna be kinda sad to lose him next season actually. But when he comes back I can actually picture being interested in his eventual relationship with Rachel Hunter (the most boring character in all of the Outlander books, imo), simply due to how much I like Ian's actor. So that's good at least.

I wish Bree had given Lizzie a good slap in the face, along with Jamie and Ian. She deserved it just as much as they did. This whole rape storyline is coming across in a kinda of soap opera-ish way, imo, with Bree's nightmares and everything. Not that someone wouldn't have nightmares, but the way this one was dramatized, I could have seen that exact scene playing out on a soap from the 1980's. And the way Jamie talked to her about it, overpowering her, I know that part was in the book, but something about it came across sort of odd to me.

I wonder if they're going to kill off Bonnet in this season after all, rather than have him hang around for two more years. The only thing is I can't see them changing who eventually kills him- that has to stay Brianna, doesn't it? It wouldn't feel right if they actually made it Jamie or Murtagh or somebody.

I think I'm finally getting used to Sophie Skelton, thank god. She's always going to be wooden, but this was the first episode where not one of her scenes distracted me from what was happening (there's usually at least one scene where her delivery, emoting or accent is so off that I'm taken out of it- this was the first time that didn't happen). So that's good.

Edited by ruby24
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Just my suspicion, but I think it likely we will see Yong Ian’s story with the native Americans next season. While the books tells it as flashbacks or via others, there’s enough there to make it coincide with the events elsewhere in the meantime. (After all, isn’t that what was done for the first half of season 3 with Jamie and Claire?)

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Ian sold Roger to the Mohawks, who live in New York and are now headed back there with Roger in tow. But weren't those actors the same men who play the native Americans who live right next to/near Jamie's land? That confused me - unless I just wasn't paying attention (very possible, as I was folding laundry at the same time). But to me, it looked as if Roger's new "owners" were the same tribe of people who live right there in North Carolina and have an uneasy relationship with Jamie, Claire, et al. One of them spoke English to Roger at one point, just as one young man did in an earlier episode, so that's why I thought this was the same tribe of people who live locally. So it didn't make sense to me that this local North Carolina tribe was dragging Roger and the other guy back to New York. Can someone clarify this for me? 

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1 hour ago, Biggie B said:

Ian sold Roger to the Mohawks, who live in New York and are now headed back there with Roger in tow. But weren't those actors the same men who play the native Americans who live right next to/near Jamie's land? That confused me - unless I just wasn't paying attention (very possible, as I was folding laundry at the same time). 

No. They were different actors.

9 hours ago, Dejana said:

I thought the book mentioned handfasting was temporary, valid for a year and a day until the couple either had a more formal ceremony before clergy or ended it permanently.

Roger told Brianna that as well. That it's temporary.

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In all her righteous outrage Bree never considered her own role in Mohawkgate.  She shares the blame by not telling Lizzie what really happened and letting Lizzie fill in the blanks.  They were all stupid in this situation, except Murtagh who decided it was a good time to see a man about a horse.

I did think Sophie did well with her scenes.  Loved the "you have no right to be more angry than me" <sic> line.

19 hours ago, morgan said:

 I definitely think Roger will be yanked back by the Mohawks,

Me too.

13 hours ago, bettername2come said:

My biggest takeaway of the episode is that Murtagh should marry Jocasta instead of Duncan. 

Maybe that's where they're heading?

[geek] The actor playing Wee Ian has been giving me a Billy Boyd/Pippin vibe so when he dropped to his knees and proposed to Bree I had a flashback to Pippin pledging his sword to Denethor. [/geek]

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2 hours ago, Biggie B said:

I thought this was the same tribe of people who live locally.

The tribe that "bought" Roger (in both the book and the show) are the Mohawk.  In the show Ian says they were just in the area trading and Claire says they live 700 miles away in upstate New York.  This makes sense -- Jamie told Ian to "get rid of him" but not to kill him.  It wouldn't serve their purpose to sell him to the tribe whose land abuts theirs.

In the book that local tribe is the Tuscarora but in the show they've been changed to Cherokee because the Tuscarora tribe essentially went extinct (was absorbed into other tribes after the population was diminished by disease and war.)  Almost nothing is known about their language nor how they dressed so the show used the Cherokee tribe instead.  Its language is still alive and more is known about what they looked like back in the day.

They're using Canadian first nation actors to play the Indians due to union rules so I doubt if those actors are actually from either of those specific tribes.  But I feel certain they used a different batch of actors to play the Mohawk than they did to play the Cherokee.  I can't be sure though because the only native American actor who was distinctive to me was the medicine woman who befriended Claire.  The rest all sort of blur together for me like the background players in the bar scene.

Edited by WatchrTina

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While I appreciate that the show has tried very, very hard to make everyone involved in the Great Misunderstanding slightly less moronic, seeing it condensed on the screen only highlights that this plotline is dumb af.

Slapping is a pet peeve of mine, I hate seeing characters getting all slap happy, but I do like Bree and Sophie, and think the criticism they get here is unduly harsh. But Bree was starting to lose me this episode with no ability to understand the nuance of the situation - while it wasn’t Jamie or Ian’s place to unilaterally decide what was done to Brianna’s rapist, they thought they were protecting her and it was a genuine mistake. No one had any reason to believe Roger would be roaming around, plus they eliminated the nonsense of Roger and Jamie talking past one another in the most contrived conversation of all time. The “You don’t get to me more angry than me” line was excellent; I understand Bree’s anger in that moment, but I don’t think what happened to Roger was anyone’s fault.

Which is why I don’t get the Lizzie hate either.  She told Jamie and Ian what she saw, and what should she have done differently?  Not tell them that the man who raped her mistress was nearby, so she could go find Bree to tell her first? Who knows what he could have done in that time, and on seeing Bree in the aftermath she had every reason to believe he was a violent man who posed a danger to them all. 

And then there’s Roger, who I found offputting in DiA and Voyager, and downright hateable in DoA. I was pleasantly surprised that I found him rather charming in seasons two and three of the show. But then we got to this season, and I was like ah, there’s the asshole I remember from the books.  

Edited by LadyAmalthea
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We know in the show that Murtagh isn't a virgin because we see him with the maid in the Paris apartment. So does Claire.

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I've only watched the episode once, so I'm interested in going back and reviewing what was said between Bree, Claire, and Jamie in the cabin when they were having their confrontation over Roger. I was waiting for one of them to slip up about where Bree and Roger came from, i.e., the stones/future. Murtaugh knows the truth, but he dismissed himself from the room anyway. Ian remained, but doesn't know.... He just knows something's strange about Claire. (Can't remember if Lizzie was still in the cabin.)

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22 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Then I hate Brianna saying (after clarifying that she won’t marry anyone else because it’s Roger she loves) that Roger “won’t want me now after what’s happened.”  That sentiment might makes sense coming from an 18th century woman but it sounded weird coming from a child of the 1960s.  I guess she means that he won’t want her if she’s carrying Bonnet’s child but I still got this weird, Victorian, “I am soiled goods” vibe that felt wrong for 20th century Brianna.

 

I've never been raped (thank god) but I've got to think that feeling like "soiled goods" is a common reaction, even today.  Our reactions to trauma are not rational - they're emotional and unpredictable.  While it isn't likely that Roger wouldn't want her, it's more than plausible that she fears that he wouldn't.  She's probably projecting her own feeling of violation onto Roger. 

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Ok wait! Did Roger stumble upon some magic stones? yes???!!! God I hope he went back through and said "fuck it" to the past and all the beatings and went and got himself some McDonald's and a modern doctor and called it a day!. But alas-- I get the feeling he's gonna stick around.

I liked Bree smacking Jamie in the face (bastard deserved it!) and Ian too (Ian was sold into slavery and he did the same thing to another human being? what!!!!) he deserved a punch in the face!

I found it funny when they were all having the "family" argument that ole Murtagh just slipped out the door-- see ya!

Aunt Jocasta seemed really happy to "see" Bree-- why does that make me nervous?

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I finally understand why there's so much animosity towards Brianna from book readers. This was the first time I actively disliked the character. I can understand her being upset at the situation but this was just all a big misunderstanding and it's no reason for her to turn on Jamie and Ian the way she did. 

Also, I've found Sophie Skelton perfectly serviceable in the role up until now and defended her against her many critics, but this episode really did her no favors in terms of showcasing her acting skills. I thought she was particularly weak in her scenes against much stronger actors and her lack of ability really showed here. Ouch.

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She shares the blame by not telling Lizzie what really happened and letting Lizzie fill in the blanks.  They were all stupid in this situation, except Murtagh who decided it was a good time to see a man about a horse.

Good point. Look, I get that she's reeling from all this information and the horror at finding out what they did to Roger but she's acting like they deliberately did this knowing full well it was Roger and that he wasn't the one who attacked her. 

Quote

She loses the high ground she has in yelling about Jamie or Ian acting violently or impulsively in using that as her goto.

Exactly! They made a horrible mistake, to be sure, but she's holding that over their heads like a cudgel.

On the flip side I really enjoyed Roger's escape from the Mohawks. I was on the edge of my seat and my jaw dropped when he found the Stone! Now, you want to see great acting? Look no further than Richard Rankin in this scene, with his face racing through about a hundred different emotions at once to the point of breaking down into tears. Wow did I feel for him at that moment. The cliff-hanger drove me nuts (they always do) but I loved the whole scene. 

Quote

I've only watched the episode once, so I'm interested in going back and reviewing what was said between Bree, Claire, and Jamie in the cabin when they were having their confrontation over Roger. I was waiting for one of them to slip up about where Bree and Roger came from, i.e., the stones/future. Murtaugh knows the truth, but he dismissed himself from the room anyway. Ian remained, but doesn't know.... He just knows something's strange about Claire. (Can't remember if Lizzie was still in the cabin.)

She was, that that's a good point. When you think about it, it's actually unrealistic that Brianna wouldn't have blurted out something about traveling through time during her tirade. It's not as if she were watching herself, she could easily have said something about going through the stones or thinking Roger went back to his own time without stopping to consider that not everyone in the room knew she was from a different time. 

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Thanks to those who clarified that the tribe transporting Roger to New York - the Mohawks - were not the same indigenous people as those we've seen earlier in the season. I guess between the bright red coats, the fanciful jewelry, the bald heads, and both having at least one English speaking person, the members of both tribes seemed similar to me. I am DEFINITELY NOT saying "they all look alike," but rather, there wasn't one extremely distinguishable feature that set them apart - i.e., if the men of one tribe had hair in a braid down their backs, or wore a different colored jacket, or didn't use saddles on their horses. I understood that Ian sold Roger to the Mohawks and that they were traveling back north, he said that very clearly, but visually, it looked as if it were the same tribe members as we've seen interacting with Jamie, Claire, etc. 

I understood Brianna's extreme anger but I didn't quite like the way she demanded that EVERYONE go after Roger. As if there would be no adverse effects to leaving the house, animals, crops virtually unattended. I know Jamie mentioned he'd ask someone [whose name I didn't catch] to look after the crops, but still - it seems like living that sort of life demands almost 24/7 maintenance of the land, animals, and even the house itself. Brianna's only been there a short while and perhaps doesn't fully realize how difficult it might be to just up and vacate the premises for almost a year. It's not like you can just lock the door and go. And did she really think that she and Lizzie could just stay there alone for all that time? Seriously? How would they get food, water, and do all the hard physical labor that needs to be done every day, especially as Brianna's pregnancy advanced? She truly did sound as if everyone did this to her on purpose and now she wants it rectified RIGHT NOW, no matter what the consequences. 

Going back to last week for a moment - when Jamie comes across Roger, and proceeds to beat the shit out of him the moment Roger opened his mouth - I do wonder why Jamie didn't say something like, "You messed with my daughter, now you're going to pay!" I guess that might've given Roger a chance to identify himself and set the record straight, which would've screwed up the entire plot, so alrighty then - I've answered my own question!

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We have another example of recycling plots with them now searching for Roger ( previously searching for Jamie -the most boring episode of the series, &then Ian). I hope that doesn't last til the finale? It will though, right?

21 minutes ago, iMonrey said:
  • On the flip side I really enjoyed Roger's escape from the Mohawks. I was on the edge of my seat and my jaw dropped when he found the Stone! Now, you want to see great acting? Look no further than Richard Rankin in this scene, with his face racing through about a hundred different emotions at once to the point of breaking down into tears. Wow did I feel for him at that moment. The cliff-hanger drove me nuts (they always do) but I loved the whole scene.

I hate the cliffhangers now that I am not watching this on Netflix.

 

I did feel bad for Jamie( & Ian), I thought since she knew about Jamie's rape, she understood his trigger, & his need to protect her.

21 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I can understand her being upset at the situation but this was just all a big misunderstanding and it's no reason for her to turn on Jamie and Ian the way she did. 

Edited by Cdh20

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When Roger was running away from his captors, they showed his dirty legs in sort-of slow motion, which is just like the shot of Claire's mud-splattered legs shown in the opening credits, from the first episode. I thought that was a nice symmetry - both time travelers, both running madly for their lives, not really knowing where they were running to, just running to get away.

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