Angel - General Discussion

[VCRTracking]

44 minutes ago, raven said:

The storyline was written to punish CC and for no other reason.   Those of us watching it in real time years ago knew it.  Whedon couldn't come up with any other story?  Than he's a shitty writer.  Let's trash Cordy's character because Charisma wants to keep working.  What's wrong with wanting to keep working?  He didn't have to write in her pregnancy - I've watched lots of shows where the pregnancy is obviously being disguised, it's not a big deal.  Whedon got pissy and is an asshole, straight up. 

 

 

On taped sitcoms in front of an audience they hide the person behind counters or bags. This was a single camera show where the actors are shot from different angles. The other solution is to put her in less scenes but she was the second lead. Write that Cordy just put on a LOT of weight? Yeah right.

They could have wrote in Cordy had a normal pregnancy but then they'd be stuck with a baby for the rest of the show. And would it make sense that she'd be around Angel and co when she's raising a child?

If David Greenwalt had stayed he would have given the support and assistance Charisma needed because he's always been a vocal fan of her and Cordelia. Joss had not established that level of trust with her so he couldn't do that. 

Sarah wanted to quit so Buffy was ending, Firefly was on the verge of cancellation and Angel was on thin ice too. Wirh hundreds of jobs  at stake including his own I don't think he would write a storyline that would alienate fans and tank the show just to punish one actress.

[Hiyo]

Good to see Joss's bullshit brand of feminism exposed, and him being seen for the utter asshole he is and was.

[raven]

11 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

They could have wrote in Cordy had a normal pregnancy but then they'd be stuck with a baby for the rest of the show. And would it make sense that she'd be around Angel and co when she's raising a child?

He wasn't forced into writing a bad storyline for the character.  Why didn't he rise to the occasion and accept a challenge?  Why didn't he discuss it with her?  Because he's a petty, vindictive asshole. Charisma Carpenter is not the only one who says so.  Can he write well for ensembles?  Yes he can but don't challenge him or throw a wrench into his plans, apparently.

 

11 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Wirh hundreds of jobs  at stake including his own I don't think he would write a storyline that would alienate fans and tank the show just to punish one actress.

And yet that's exactly what he did.

[Lebanna]

I find it really interesting that CC mentioned that he commented publicly and rudely on her weight before she told him about the pregnancy.

I always thought it was interesting that like on ‘Ally McBeal’, a supposedly feminist show seemed to only cast tiny actresses, starting from the re-cast of Willow from the first pilot.

For me, a feminist show even at that point should have had some strong older women, some proudly fat women, weightlifting female demons or something, as well as tiny women. But the women on Buffy and Angel (and Firefly) just seemed to get physically smaller as time went on. It bothered me at the time, when Joss was held up as this great feminist. The actresses were all so talented, but the variety of wonderful, beautiful women was never visible in his universe.

And now, I guess, we know why.

Edited February 11, 2021 by Lebanna

[sinkwriter]

The only pregnancy story he could come up with was having Cordelia sleep with Angel's son? That was beyond gross and made NO sense. Before he came back as a teenager, she was like a mom to him. 

[Gigi43]

Cordelia spent a few episodes of s4 in bed, she could have been injured in bed. On a show like Angel there are so many ways to hide it or just ignore it and not give her action scenes. So many shows have had pregnant actresses.  And wasn't Joss' original plan to bring Doyle as the big bad but obviously Glen Quinn couldn't sign on because of his issues and OD'd (I would have hated that, especially right after 'Dark Willow' on Buffy, having one of your own evil was a tired Joss trope by then.) And CC was rumored to have a miscarriage in s3 so it was known she was trying. You don't say to a woman 'are you going to keep it?' (why would she be telling you if she wasn't. JW?) JW patted himself on the back for being a feminist, having strong female characters/actresses, but never anticipated one of the actresses (all but SMG were already in their mid 20s during Buffy s1) would maybe want a baby before series end? CC had been doing Cordy for 7yrs total. Joss reworked all of Buffy s2 by not killing Spike (though James has made comments JW wasn't happy there was pressure to keep Spike and said to James he could still be killed at anytime.) 

 

CC mentioned he pits actors against each other. Given what she says about her weight, I wonder if that's a reference to her and Amy Acker? Amy is thinner, not that CC was ever fat. Fred was so brilliant it was her, not Wes, who thought to call Willow (I hate that) and was making comments about Cordy 'grooming' Connor. One thing that I hated in s4 it was Gunn or even Wes did go up into that bedroom to check on Cordy. The decision to kill her was all about Angel, meanwhile Wes and Gunn have their own history with Cordy.

 

What's everyone's favorite Cordy episodes? Mine:

 

-Rm W/ A Vu: I love it. One of my favorites of the series. I loved being called a bitch was Cordy's trigger to be Queen C, the way she adjusted to Dennis right away (as long as he didn't turn up the TV volume.) There was glimmers of her feeling bad about her past as a bully and saw a nice place as a sign she couldn't have been that bad. "Cry-Buffy" was hilarious. And I loved the exchange Angel: It says die! Cordy: It's rent controlled!.... as someone in NYC, that exchange would definitely go down.

 

-You're Welcome: I liked Cordy's parts because it was refreshing to have her back. Though I'm mad Gunn wasn't at the hospital or researching with Cordy/Wes or in his own one on one with Cordy. The soul argument with Spike was a riot.

 

-Parting Gifts: Her quest to get rid of the visions then framing the picture at the end of her little blob to represent Doyle left the visions was sweet. 

 

-Billy: Loved her confronting Billy and going to Lilah (good ep for Lilah  too.)

 

-Honorable mentions: The final two episodes of the Pylea arc. I loved the 'important voice', her realizing she couldn't give up the visions and wanting to help free the slaves. Over all, I thought her story in Pylea was the more interesting than the others (Angel's vanity was hilarious but once we got into AngelBeast... eh... I was over him and his darkness with Epiphany.) "Expecting" was really good, though feels a bit odd to say right now. "To Shanshu in LA"--- her need to find Angel a hobby, the suffering, and the old/new Cordy hybrid ending of telling Angel to feel free to drink blood then telling Wes to speed up before Angel croaks.

 

Edited February 11, 2021 by Gigi43

[ElectricBoogaloo]

 

[Jediknight]

On 2/11/2021 at 10:32 AM, sinkwriter said:

The only pregnancy story he could come up with was having Cordelia sleep with Angel's son? That was beyond gross and made NO sense. Before he came back as a teenager, she was like a mom to him. 

It reaffirms what Angel fans have known for almost 20 years, the show was better off with Joss staying the smurf away.

Like I said in another thread, I'm grateful for Joss creating Buffy, Angel, and Firefly, and directing 2 Avengers movies.  But, he's a shitgoblin.

Edited February 12, 2021 by Jediknight

[Jack Shaftoe]

On 2/11/2021 at 4:44 PM, Lebanna said:

For me, a feminist show even at that point should have had some strong older women, some proudly fat women, weightlifting female demons or something, as well as tiny women. But the women on Buffy and Angel (and Firefly) just seemed to get physically smaller as time went on. It bothered me at the time, when Joss was held up as this great feminist. The actresses were all so talented, but the variety of wonderful, beautiful women was never visible in his universe.

Yeah, and in addition to that Joss killed off the two older female characters of any importance in Buffy and had to be talked into giving Amber Benson a chance because initially he claimed she wasn't the right physical type for the job (i.e. she was fat).

On 2/11/2021 at 4:24 AM, VCRTracking said:

On taped sitcoms in front of an audience they hide the person behind counters or bags. This was a single camera show where the actors are shot from different angles. The other solution is to put her in less scenes but she was the second lead. Write that Cordy just put on a LOT of weight? Yeah right.

They could have wrote in Cordy had a normal pregnancy but then they'd be stuck with a baby for the rest of the show. And would it make sense that she'd be around Angel and co when she's raising a child?

It was a show where magic could literally do anything. It would have been extremely easy to explain away why the actress looked pregnant while the character wasn't, if the writers had wanted to go that way - "Haha, that wacky spell made Cordy look pregnant and we don't know how to undo it! Isn't that just the worst? Who would be dumb enough to want to raise a kid while fighting demons? Only Angel is that stupid, haha". Or they could have had the baby taken care of by someone else after the birth because the life her mother led was too dangerous (that's what the writers on Wynonna Earp did when the lead actress became pregnant - nobody complained, AFAIK). Fans know the drill and usually are pretty forgiving of this kind of stuff because most of them don't want the actress in question to leave the show.

Also, "hide the pregnant belly" happens on shows other than sitcoms too and again, I don't recall the viewers caring too much when Charmed or Person of Interest or Wynonna Earp, to name but a few, did it. Whedon wasn't put in an impossible position, solving this kind of issue is a normal part of a showrunner's job.

Quote

Wirh hundreds of jobs  at stake including his own I don't think he would write a storyline that would alienate fans and tank the show just to punish one actress.

I doubt people believe that it was done just to punish CC but it's very likely that it was a big factor.

[shantown]

"He hired Amber Benson even though he thought she was fat" is not the stunning defense people think it is.

[supposebly]

The X-files did a fabulous job with Gillian Anderson's pregnancy. Put her in large coats, have Scully be abducted while she gave birth and wrote a whole storyline that DEFINED the show for years to come. One episode sucked while she was away but that was it. It can be done.

I never knew all this behind-the scenes stuff since I watched this and Buffy a few years later after they were over. I'm appalled but somehow not all that surprised. The so-called "feminism" in both shows always stank and was superficial at best IMO. Tiny female does not a feminist show make.

I liked Angel better despite my never-ending puzzlement that someone like Boreanaz can get hired to head a show (3 now! How?) and they had to introduce another tiny person with Amy Acker there too. 

And yes, that story line in season 4 was awful. I'm probably one of the few people who think that it could have been interesting in concept if we had known that Cordy wasn't Cordy from very early on, but it was done so very terribly and off-putting for all the wrong reasons.

[Hiyo]

They could have kept Cordelia on after she gave birth to Jasmine. Have her remember everything she did while possessed, even though she wasn’t responsible for any of it, and try and deal and process all of that, even though it wasn’t her fault. You could even have the other characters reacting to it, trying to help her, but still having some trust issues and flinching every time she does something un-Cordelia like. Give her a 6 or 7 episode arc of “How Cordelia Got Her Groove Back” and then go from there.

[Morrigan2575]

On 2/11/2021 at 9:44 AM, Lebanna said:

I find it really interesting that CC mentioned that he commented publicly and rudely on her weight before she told him about the pregnancy.

Minor actually referred to her as a whale in an interview. I remember that and I was so pissed off. I had already quit Angel after seeing what Whedon and Minor did to not only Greenwalt but Cordy/Charisma.

The fact that people are still making excuses for Whedon after Charisma, Claire Cramer, Amber Benson and Michelle Trachtenberg all came out saying he was a POS is telling. Hell Ray Fisher revealed what a POS Whedon was and WB did in fact fire Whedon after an investigation. So it's not just rumors or one pregnant woman being overly sensitive.

The dude is utter trash, has been for years. Many of us knew/saw him for what he was. 

[Gigi43]

6 hours ago, Hiyo said:

They could have kept Cordelia on after she gave birth to Jasmine. Have her remember everything she did while possessed, even though she wasn’t responsible for any of it, and try and deal and process all of that, even though it wasn’t her fault. You could even have the other characters reacting to it, trying to help her, but still having some trust issues and flinching every time she does something un-Cordelia like. Give her a 6 or 7 episode arc of “How Cordelia Got Her Groove Back” and then go from there.

 

Not even that. If Fred wasn't going to flinch around Angel after Angelus said he'd rape her to death, trusted him to go on the run with her, (shouldn't Jasmine's spell have been perfect happiness, like the drug in Eternity?), I don't want people flinching around Cordelia. I've seen it argued they just went too far with that story and couldn't keep her on and I don't see at all how on a 'verse with Spike and Angel, what Cordelia did with her body completely hijacked would be the one line. If Connor was the line for Angel, well, if he couldn't forgive Cordy for having her body taken over and manipulating Connor, after Angelus' run in Buffy s2 and Cordelia trusts him understanding the difference, he can go f*ck off. You can make the argument Angelus and soulless Spike are just the worst versions of themselves turned up to 100, (so Harmony's kind of always been the worst version of herself) but Cordelia was completely taken over. Fans and characters accepted her entirely in You're Welcome. Granted they don't remember she slept with Connor (except for Angel who wasn't weirded out) but they know she killed Lilah and probably the others. 

Which was always interesting to me, on another note, Wesley understood immediately that Cordelia was trying to tell him she didn't kill Lilah, but then in Origin part of Wes' memories were of sex with Lilah. So did he forget their relationship or just the time of her wearing Fred's glasses since that was the memory flash (Lilah do that herself? That's kind of my favorite option, if Angel can mess with memories, she can take that one back.) If Wes didn't remember the relationship at all, why would he assume that she needed to unburden about Lilah to him. Did she commit no other evil acts in their minds except killing Lilah that that's what Wesley would think of first and foremost? 

 

More show pregnancies: Lucifer has dealt with two actress pregnancies in the course of also having what has to be a record number of 'one last season' announcements, Fox/Netflix switch, how Fox generally messed with the show (Fox gonna Fox) and both women are still on the show. Joss is just a little bitch. 

Edited February 14, 2021 by Gigi43

[Jediknight]

11 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Fans know the drill and usually are pretty forgiving of this kind of stuff because most of them don't want the actress in question to leave the show.

Especially when said actress is playing a beloved character that has had years of development.

Angel completely destroyed the Queen C persona, and made Cordy stronger than she ever was on Buffy.  And hell, they built up a good romantic relationship for Angel and Cordelia.  Who would have thought that during their time on Buffy?  The development of Cordy and Wesley are one of the reasons that I think Angel was a better show than Buffy.

[Hiyo]

Quote

Not even that. If Fred wasn't going to flinch around Angel after Angelus said he'd rape her to death, trusted him to go on the run with her, (shouldn't Jasmine's spell have been perfect happiness, like the drug in Eternity?), I don't want people flinching around Cordelia. I've seen it argued they just went too far with that story and couldn't keep her on and I don't see at all how on a 'verse with Spike and Angel, what Cordelia did with her body completely hijacked would be the one line. If Connor was the line for Angel, well, if he couldn't forgive Cordy for having her body taken over and manipulating Connor, after Angelus' run in Buffy s2 and Cordelia trusts him understanding the difference, he can go f*ck off. You can make the argument Angelus and soulless Spike are just the worst versions of themselves turned up to 100, (so Harmony's kind of always been the worst version of herself) but Cordelia was completely taken over. Fans and characters accepted her entirely in You're Welcome. Granted they don't remember she slept with Connor (except for Angel who wasn't weirded out) but they know she killed Lilah and probably the others. 

If anything, then, it would have been a good opportunity to explore that issue with Angel and Spike as well, via the parallel of what happened to Cordelia.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

52 minutes ago, Hiyo said:

If anything, then, it would have been a good opportunity to explore that issue with Angel and Spike as well, via the parallel of what happened to Cordelia.

Exactly. Angel and Spike could have had a good heart to heart with her about how they understood what it was like to find out what you'd done while a different version of yourself was in the driver's seat and talked about how they worked through the guilt to get some redemption. That's just ONE possibility in a sea of countless possibilities.

13 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

It was a show where magic could literally do anything. It would have been extremely easy to explain away why the actress looked pregnant while the character wasn't, if the writers had wanted to go that way - "Haha, that wacky spell made Cordy look pregnant and we don't know how to undo it! Isn't that just the worst?

ITA - there could have been a spell or curse making her look pregnant that Wesley had to spend half the season researching. Or it could have been a spell that made her look like different huge demons (to hide her belly) and every time Wesley tried to undo it, she would look like a different one. Or her headaches caused by TPTB could have come back unexpectedly and the team would tell her she was on research duty aka hidden behind desks and stacks of books until they could figure out why the headaches had returned. Or they could have said she was injured in a fight and had to recuperate. It didn't even have to be a life threatening injury. If they said she broke her arm, she wouldn't be much help during actual fights so she would have a reason not to do any of the fight scenes and putting her in dark clothes plus a big white sling with a long coat would hide her belly most of the time. There are SO many different ways they could have dealt with her pregnancy because, as you said, this was a world where magic and demons existed. They could have given us just about any explanation and as an audience watching a show about magic and demons, we would have said okay, that make sense.

[General Days]

23 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Minor actually referred to her as a whale in an interview. I remember that and I was so pissed off. I had already quit Angel after seeing what Whedon and Minor did to not only Greenwalt but Cordy/Charisma.

The fact that people are still making excuses for Whedon after Charisma, Claire Cramer, Amber Benson and Michelle Trachtenberg all came out saying he was a POS is telling. Hell Ray Fisher revealed what a POS Whedon was and WB did in fact fire Whedon after an investigation. So it's not just rumors or one pregnant woman being overly sensitive.

The dude is utter trash, has been for years. Many of us knew/saw him for what he was. 

Did spellcheck catch you up? Is "Minor" supposed to be "Minear"? I'm asking hoping that you mean someone else, because my understanding was always that CC loved working with Minear. She has said in more recent interviews that Tim Minear and David Greenwalt were the two who understood the Cordelia character the best and helped her shine. 

 

[Morrigan2575]

20 minutes ago, General Days said:

Did spellcheck catch you up? Is "Minor" supposed to be "Minear"? I'm asking hoping that you mean someone else, because my understanding was always that CC loved working with Minear. She has said in more recent interviews that Tim Minear and David Greenwalt were the two who understood the Cordelia character the best and helped her shine. 

Nah, I think it was some fandom thing from years ago because of how he acted...nicknames...like people use to call Marti Noxon, Martin Noxious..Tim Minear became Tim Minor...cause he acted like an immature little shit 😂

And yes, that's exactly who said it, It was right after S4 ended he and one of the other Angel writers (don't remember) were whining because S4 was so poorly received. He said something to the effect of writing for your lead actress when she's a whale. I remember because I was so pissed off I actually emailed him (his email was public/known to the fandom...he used to hang out at the ASS board as well).

As for Minear and Cordelia, I have no idea why she'd say that since Minear actually said he never understood the Cordy character. He even stated flat out that he couldn't write Cordy. There was a S3 episode (Billy) which was a Cordy episode and he admitted he has to get Joss to write a Cordy/Lila scene because he didn't get her voice. Minear was a huge Darla fan, seemed to love the Whore/Madonna characters (he created Inara).

Greenie was the Cordy champion who really got her. If you read Charisma's Instagram post she talks about how she would still praise Joss and, even talk about working with him again, even though she was emotionally torn up about her time on Buffy/Angel. My guess is she probably said nice things about Minear for that reason but, that's just a guess.

Wow, 20 years later and I'm still fucking bitter over what they did to Cordy/Charisma.

[General Days]

5 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

And yes, that's exactly who said it, It was right after S4 ended he and one of the other Angel writers (don't remember) were whining because S4 was so poorly received. He said something to the effect of writing for your lead actress when she's a whale. I remember because I was so pissed off I actually emailed him (his email was public/known to the fandom...he used to hang out at the ASS board as well).

I remember when you could email Tim (David Fury, too).

7 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

As for Minear and Cordelia, I have no idea why she'd say that since Minear actually said he never understood the Cordy character. He even stated flat out that he couldn't write Cordy. There was a S3 episode (Billy) which was a Cordy episode and he admitted he has to get Joss to write a Cordy/Lila scene because he didn't get her voice. Minear was a huge Darla fan, seemed to love the Whore/Madonna characters (he created Inara).

Greenie was the Cordy champion who really got her. If you read Charisma's Instagram post she talks about how she would still praise Joss and, even talk about working with him again, even though she was emotionally torn up about her time on Buffy/Angel. My guess is she probably said nice things about Minear for that reason but, that's just a guess.

Wow, 20 years later and I'm still fucking bitter over what they did to Cordy/Charisma.

I'm bitter, too. I have no problem believing her, because her story is basically what my Buffy and Angel friends and I figured happened to her (as far as the awful storyline and then writing her out).

The "Billy" episode was not Tim's proudest moment.

[Morrigan2575]

Just now, General Days said:

I remember when you could email Tim (David Fury, too).

I'm bitter, too. I have no problem believing her, because her story is basically what my Buffy and Angel friends and I figured happened to her (as far as the awful storyline and then writing her out).

The "Billy" episode was not Tim's proudest moment.

Were you on the Purple Board back on the day? Stranger Things? That was my introduction to online fandom .

[General Days]

35 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Were you on the Purple Board back on the day? Stranger Things? That was my introduction to online fandom .

No, I was on the Bronze, a little at TWoP, and I lurked on City Of Angel  https://web.archive.org/web/20020205102609/http://www.cityofangel.com/noflash.htm

[Gigi43]

David and Charisma had a twitter exchange of support yesterday (its on the replies to her post, I think his actual twitter is still private) 

 

 

Tim Minear has been outspoken about clearing up the idea that she "hid her pregnancy", and that's just a rumor and they knew early. I'm surprised to hear he may have been a dick to her.

Edited February 15, 2021 by Gigi43

[illdoc]

https://tvline.com/2021/02/15/david-boreanaz-charisma-carpenter-buffy-angel-joss-whedon-controversy/

[Macbeth]

7 hours ago, illdoc said:

https://tvline.com/2021/02/15/david-boreanaz-charisma-carpenter-buffy-angel-joss-whedon-controversy/

I very happy David came out to support Charisma.  Given his background.....

I always though Angel was a much happier set than Buffy.  You can catch the cast laughing during scenes where it should have been edited out.

But it appears when Greenwalt left after S3 - things went down the shitter.

[VCRTracking]

I'll be honest to say I had problems with Cordelia's character in season 3 before Joss took over and she got pregnant. Something bothered me about her during that  season. I finally realized it's that she was maturing too fast. The character is only 20 at that point. Yes it's great she's no longer shallow and the visions helped be less self absorbed but she's still  supposed to have some immaturity. Think about any 20 year old you met. Also remember when you were that age. You can argue doing the things she's done with Angel Investigations it's natural she would seem older but Buffy, Xander and Willow in season 6 who were the same age were all kinds of messed up. They were young adults barely out of high school making really bad decisions. I think because Charisma was already over 30 by then they tended to write Cordy that age too. The bob haircut didn't help. 

Edited February 28, 2021 by VCRTracking

[Hiyo]

“Think about any 20 year old you met.”

I can’t think of any 20 year olds who went through what Cordelia did. Granted, I can’t think of anyone irl who spent their late teens/early 20s fighting demons.

But if we’re going on that track...some people mature faster than other.

[Hiyo]

The Rise and Fall of Joss Whedon, and the Myth of the Hollywood Feminist Hero.

[azshadowwalker]

On 2/10/2021 at 12:01 PM, Gigi43 said:

I've been rewatching old shows during lockdown. Over all I find Angel more rewatchable than Buffy. Angel s5 was weird given we don't know what the characters think happened, but I actually find it more annoying on Buffy no one cared their memories were changed for Dawn and had no inklings to want to know how exactly their memories would be different. Angel  s4 was my least favorite but I still watch a lot of the episodes, where as my least favorite of Buffy, 7, I can only watch maybe two episodes and I don't watch much of season 6 or all of s1, where as with Angel there's no season I only watch 2 episodes. I really enjoy Angel s1 as time goes by, even though it had the least amount of Gunn, who I loved (I thought Spike was great in s5 but Gunn got sidelined too much for my liking. Would have liked to see him in court again.)

 

Now that I've talked about the show itself, Charisma Carpenter dropped that Joss Whedon was a piece of shit to her and confirms he wasn't happy she was pregnant, which is really not a surprise. 

 

https://deadline.com/2021/02/buffy-star-charisma-carpenter-joss-whedon-was-abusive-and-harassing-on-set-supports-ray-fisher-1234691282/ 

I have always preferred Angel to Buffy as shows go. Probably because I was in my late 20s/early 30s and already had a kid through both shows and the high school stuff just didn't appeal as much to me.

As for Charisma, at the time, a lot of people said that he was intentionally destroying the character. I didn't agree, but it looks like I was wrong. 

Edited March 10, 2021 by azshadowwalker

[MagnusHex]

So I stopped liking Angel as much somewhere after Kate departed the show. I know lots of people hated her, but I like strong female characters even when they're annoyingly antagonistic towards the main character for no justifiable reason. Kate was annoying, but only because she was poorly written and not used to her full potential. She could've grown to be a unique police ally character like a female Commissioner Gordon, but alas, Elisabeth Röhm had other commitments in "Law & Order". Yuck, a police procedural.

I think the show went downhill for me there because it got more comedic. I liked the "dark period" of Angel, even if he got a little too edgy and melodramatic. Angel finally showed that he still has that monstrous side inside him - with or without losing his soul - and was capable of showing no mercy towards Darla if he wanted. But alas, that arc went nowhere and ended with the disappointing "Epiphany" which I found a little overrated, which is ironic since the quote from that episode got me to watch the series in the first place. By the time I got to the episode, however, the way the quote was said felt a lot less profound than I pictured... He just suddenly had an epiphany out of nowhere and it's business as usual the next episode. Oh well.

But anyway, never really felt excited for Angel season 3 more than Buffy season 6. In spite of my qualms against the latter, I'm still looking forward to Willow's dark arc and how Buffy's gonna deal with her resurrection. Angel S3's plot, not so much. What little I know of this season (watching it for the first time), I know that

Spoiler

Darla's supposed to have a baby or something, but I think that when they stopped exploring Darla's arc in season 2 and switched to that goofy Plrtz Glrb arc (because Julie Bentz had commitments elsewhere and couldn't shoot the rest of the episodes, from what I heard), I stopped caring about it. I think that window of caring for me had long passed, and this new Darla plot in season 3 hardly sounds that interesting (or at least, not as interesting as Willow's arc over in Buff S6). I mean, do we really need another awkward plot dealing with pregnancies, especially after what we've heard about Whedon's sentiments about Charisma Carpenter's real life pregnancy? This show never had a good track record handling women's body issues, which is no surprise considering it's Yucky Faux-Feminist Whedon.

Also, I never had the same love for Darla as other people either. Can Angel just please kill her and be done with it?

But anyway, not a lot of hype for season 3. I just watched "Fredless" too and that opening annoyed the heck out of me because of the teasing way they dropped Buffy's meeting with Angel without really including any important character development details

(Buffy S6 spoilers)

Spoiler

(how Angel feels about Buffy being stripped from heaven for example, assuming she told him the truth, which she probably would),

because of the split with WB, and yet felt obligated to include the meeting anyway. It's just pretty stupid, and I didn't really find Cordy and Wesley's teasing that funny, unlike everyone else. I think they were being dicks. "Why don't you both bite me?" indeed.

Fred's quirkiness was indeed annoying, but I don't think I hated her as much as other people. I find her character unique and refreshing, especially now with her physicist intelligence coming into play after this episode (Fredless). But from what spoilers I've heard,

Spoiler

she and Wesley were supposed to get together or something, something happened to her, and Wesley went dark,

which is the more interesting plot I'm more invested in, because you know me and tragedies. Also, Wesley, it's about time. Been waiting for him to become dark and badass since season 1.

Edited March 10, 2021 by MagnusHex

[aghst]

Been rewatching, really binging through the series.

On the CC controversy, it seemed odd even before the pregnancy, she’d be absent, like the vacation with Groo where she was missing for awhile.  Or she’d get fewer lines even in the episodes she appeared in.  I thought maybe they were trying to feature Amy Acker more.

With all the accusations now against Wheadon, I wondered if this was a reflection.  I haven’t read CC’s recent accounts of how she was treated.  Was her main complaint that she was sexually harassed or that she was mistreated for her pregnancy?

I also noticed several times the character referred to AA’s stick figure, calling her Twiggy or once noting she didn’t have much of a bust.  But AA said recently she wasn’t mistreated on Angel?

In any event, reading this thread reminded me how strong the opinions are of the Buffy and Angel fans.  Mostly read Usenet group for BtVS at the time.  People were so pissed about Buffy and Spike and then Dawn.

[MagnusHex]

Finally reaching the peak-level quality stuff in season 3. I say "peak-level" instead of just "good stuff" because man, this season's full of good stuff. Definitely loving it more than season 2. 

It's kinda ironic, how I feel towards this season, especially when I compare it to how I'm feeling towards Buffy season 6 (which I'm watching alongside of). These two shows have very drama-focused plotlines that deal with the characters' anxieties. Granted, their anxieties are related to very different issues; the Scoobies were dealing with addiction and existentialism, while AI was dealing with coping with each other through conflict and romance (Wesley unintentionally going feral on Fred; Gunn having loyalty issues at the beginning, Cordy feeling guilty and carrying the burden on her own, etc.). But still, there was a point in time when Buffy was the master of handling multiple plot threads to weave them together in a compelling way that examine each character's struggles while melding them together beautifully at the same time. Now in S3, however, Angel has stepped up instead and pushed the characters in an organic and engaging way Buffy once did in S2/S3.

I was rarely bored ever since Connor appeared. Even before then, in spite of my gripes about Darla, the earlier episodes start to appear more significant in retrospect because they developed the other members of AI, specifically Gunn, Fred and Wes, three very important characters for the Holtz/Sahjhan conflict (Cordy's away on vacation). If those earlier developments weren't in place, if Wes' insecurities about himself weren't in place, if Fred and Gunn's respective loyalties and perspectives within AI (and towards Angel) weren't explored earlier, none of this would have as much impact in "Forgiving", when all the pieces started to fall in place for the finale, when 

Spoiler

Angel has desires to kill Wes, and both Gunn and Fred have to dissuade Angel... but he then attempts to murder him anyway with a pillow... yeah, even with vampire strength, that still looks like an unreliable way of killing someone.

The point is, it all seems to move logically and organically, the narrative, so it's been very satisfying so far.

Unlike Buffy, the mess that it is in season 6.

I've caught up to "Forgiving" for now, so there's only five episodes to go. Can't wait to see how it all ends.

Edited March 21, 2021 by MagnusHex

[Hiyo]

It would have made more sense for Angel to just snap Wesley’s neck rather than try to smother him with a pillow, but then, it would have been over too quick for anyone to stop him.

[aghst]

One thing that's very notable is how female characters are subject to violence.

Yes a lot of the plots have action in them so it shouldn't be surprising that regulars like Cordy and Fred get in battles and they receive blows, as well as deal them.  But they're rag dolled to the other side of the room, which is understandable since they're so light.

Just saw an episode where Lorne slugs Eve and draws blood from the corner of her mouth.

I wonder if these kinds of scenes would fly now.

I can't recall for sure but I think Gunn once hit Fred and apologized but they didn't make too much of it.

 

[moonshine71]

On 3/27/2021 at 2:07 PM, aghst said:

 

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by moonshine71

[illdoc]

Someone just can't seem to escape vampires: https://tvline.com/2021/08/30/vampire-academy-cast-peacock-adaptation/

[AuntieMame]

On 2/11/2021 at 1:02 AM, Hiyo said:

Good to see Joss's bullshit brand of feminism exposed, and him being seen for the utter asshole he is and was.

 

On 2/11/2021 at 7:44 AM, Lebanna said:

I find it really interesting that CC mentioned that he commented publicly and rudely on her weight before she told him about the pregnancy.

I always thought it was interesting that like on ‘Ally McBeal’, a supposedly feminist show seemed to only cast tiny actresses, starting from the re-cast of Willow from the first pilot.

For me, a feminist show even at that point should have had some strong older women, some proudly fat women, weightlifting female demons or something, as well as tiny women. But the women on Buffy and Angel (and Firefly) just seemed to get physically smaller as time went on. It bothered me at the time, when Joss was held up as this great feminist. The actresses were all so talented, but the variety of wonderful, beautiful women was never visible in his universe.

And now, I guess, we know why.

The tiny women in the Whedonverse always bothered me. Because the root of sexism is physical. We are hated and discriminated against because of our very female bodies. The sexual dimorphism of our species means that males have on average double the upper body strength of women. This affects how we live our lives because bottom line pretty much any man can kill any woman with his bare hands no weapon required. And that fact along with the possibility of assault and rape affects every male/female interaction and is in everyone’s subconscious. And yes, I know, not all men assault and that a few women a few deviations from the standard curve physically would make men pay for that assault as much as possible. But the stark fact remains that the root of women’s oppression is very physical it’s in our size and in our ability to birth children. 

For shows that are supposed to be so “feminist” and about female power, the fact that Whedon never addressed the physical limitations that define women’s lives seemed very far from feminism. Yes, Buffy is given magic powers as ultimately are Willow and Cordelia. What about Echo in Dollhouse? A magic brain and knowledge/skills  that gave her better physicality while working as a truly full service prostitute or something like that. Science is used as magic in the Dollhouse universe. But Echo’s actual physical body wouldn’t heal faster. And even with fighting skills to help you, Newtonian physics will have its say. 

The worst thing about all of this is that head feminist in charge, Joss Whedon didn’t even see the conflict. He was right there. Women are at a physical disadvantage and men have historically been aggressive as a group. How does this affect people? Even in a fantasy setting? So Buffy was off kilter philosophically and emotionally from the beginning. 

And all of the waif like girls? I think a name has been invented for this since I was trying to noodle it twenty years ago called waifu. Waif kung fu is how I always read it. And being even tinier than the norm? It does affect you. I’ve been both plump and underweight. I had more physical fear when I weighed what women in Hollywood weigh.

Riddle me this. How do you think the actresses of the Whedonverse would fare against a hundred and eighty pound assailant? But it’s fantasy AuntieMame! Except that fantasy works because it’s a reasonable metaphor for our real lives. And we see hundred pound women beating up men twice their weight in every action or fantasy movie or series. Does anyone remember Alias? I believe that the near universal existence of this false trope allows us to ignore women’s reality. It might be unconscious but it isn’t an accident. I wonder if this helps us blame and ignore real life victims. Because we’ve seen so many tiny women beating off assailants. Why didn’t she beat him up? But that idea has been planted subconsciously and thus is never consciously examined. 

Now we know Joss’s not only preference but demand for underweight women. We also know he abuses these women. That he had to be ordered not to be alone with an actress still an actual minor. But we’re still supposed to see something feminist about magicking away the reason we need feminism in the first place? I love Whedon’s shows for many reasons but I’ve always tried to remember that men who say they are feminist are often the least feminist of all. And the skeletal women easily defeating men and men in demon suits eighty pounds heavier than they were always seemed to me to erase women and their issues. Even when I couldn’t articulate it. 

Edited September 6, 2021 by AuntieMame
Just a little housekeeping.

[sinkwriter]

The one character I always appreciated was November from Dollhouse. That actress was beautiful but also bigger than his usual choices for female characters on his shows. I loved that she became a love interest, and that she was also a kickass sleeper agent in disguise. But now that all this stuff has come out in the media, I wonder how she was treated on set. 

[AuntieMame]

15 hours ago, sinkwriter said:

The one character I always appreciated was November from Dollhouse. That actress was beautiful but also bigger than his usual choices for female characters on his shows. I loved that she became a love interest, and that she was also a kickass sleeper agent in disguise. But now that all this stuff has come out in the media, I wonder how she was treated on set. 

I always liked Mellie/November too. As a character, as an actress and as an example of just what we’re talking about. Because Piper Laurie isn’t fat. She isn’t even overweight by the strict standards of medical charts. When the internet was going on about how refreshing it was to see a plump girl on tv, I checked her stats. She’s 5’9” and 145 pounds. This would make her about a size six. Our eyes, via the camera, have been trained to read normal as abnormal and vice versa. It makes me wonder just how many other abnormal things hide in plain sight. 

[illdoc]

A couple of people got work: https://tvline.com/2021/12/20/911-lone-star-julie-benz-amy-acker-cast-season-3/

[Spartan Girl]

So regarding the whole curse, I found a little plot hole: how did Angel holding baby Connor for the first time NOT count as a “moment of perfect happiness”? He seemed pretty happy in that moment to me!

[illdoc]

Per TVLine: * Charisma Carpenter (Veronica Mars, Angel) will guest-star on an upcoming episode of The CW’s Dynasty, TVLine has learned exclusively. She will play Heather, a former babysitter of Fallon’s who makes a surprise return — and drops a huge bombshell on the Carringtons. Expect to see her in Episode 17, airing Friday, July 8 at 9/8

[aghst]

Does anyone watch Boreanaz's recent shows?

They look lame, probably nowhere near as good as Angel.

But great for him to maintain a leading star career for so long.

[moonshine71]

On 2/10/2022 at 7:57 PM, Spartan Girl said:

So regarding the whole curse, I found a little plot hole: how did Angel holding baby Connor for the first time NOT count as a “moment of perfect happiness”? He seemed pretty happy in that moment to me!

Meh, I've heard that argument before, but I've really never bumped up against it. The first time I held my son, it was absolutely a moment of incredible joy, but there was also huge underlying feeling of fear- that I wouldn't be up to the task, of all the things in the world that could harm him, and a thousand other worries about his future. I remember a couple of days later when we were leaving the hospital, my ex-wife and I stopped end looked at each other after we had put him in his car seat and simultaneously expressing our disbelief that they were actually letting us take this fragile little baby home to take care of, neither of us felt qualified. 

Now, when you factor in that Angel literally had someone hunting him down and trying to kill him when Conner was born(and who might presumably kill Conner as well), I would imagine no matter how much joy Angel felt or appeared to express at that moment, it was FAR from perfect happiness.

[yanksno1]

Been watching Buffy and was going to watch Angel chronological with Buffy. Watched the 1st ep of Angel, and suddenly remembered why I never got into the show in the first place. I did watch S5, but that was more to morn the loss of Buffy. is it worth sticking with? I think I did watch the pilot of Angel when it originally aired, and same thing happened there. Just didn't grab me like Buffy did.

[Ceindreadh]

18 hours ago, yanksno1 said:

Been watching Buffy and was going to watch Angel chronological with Buffy. Watched the 1st ep of Angel, and suddenly remembered why I never got into the show in the first place. I did watch S5, but that was more to morn the loss of Buffy. is it worth sticking with? I think I did watch the pilot of Angel when it originally aired, and same thing happened there. Just didn't grab me like Buffy did.

YMMV, but I know that I enjoyed Angel more than Buffy back when they first aired.  (Although that's possibly because I was way past high school at the time).  I think it's worth sticking with.   

I've actually started rewatching it recently and I'd forgotton how much humour there is, although it's well balanced with the darker side. 

 

[JustHereForFood]

It's slightly different, but both are very good, IMO. And still hold up.

[dwmarch]

As I remember, Angel (the series) doesn't quite find its footing in the first season. In the second season it gets a lot less case-of-the-week and a lot more intense though.

There are some incredible arcs for specific characters but I don't want to spoil anything. Just rest assured that everyone goes through a lot over the course of the show.

[DMK]

I attempted a rewatch of both Buffy and Angel a few years ago. Got through the whole series of Angel no problem. Season 4 of Buffy ended up being a complete slog for me so I abandoned it. TLDR: I liked Angel better.