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Star Trek: Deep Space Nine


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Not officially, but I can give you the headcanon I just came up with.

Vic's creator was a friend of Bashir that liked making holo-programs.  From meeting Dr. Zimmerman (the creator of the EMH on Voyager), holo-programmers often base their creations on real people, with consent as required (as we saw with the possible EMH Mark II that was going to have been based on Bashir.)

Much like the EMH, the easiest template for Vic to have been based on would have been his original programmer.   So it was his MU alternate that we saw; a real person that Vic was programmed in the image of.

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 Best not to put too much thought into it.  The whole mirror universe concept doesn't hang together to begin with.   Unless you have some conscious force (like Q or any of the other omnipotent beings we've seen over the years) pulling the strings in one of both universes,  There's not way the same people would exist in each universe, much less come together in the same groups.   By the time they got to The Emperor's New Cloak, the mirror universe was overplayed and they had descend into (bad) fanfic.  Dredging the concept up for Discovery is one of many reasons I haven't been inclined to shell out to see that show.  

 Watching the show in reruns on H&I and BBC, it's still one of my favs.  But it does have it's flaws and not all of it ages well.   Still, I wish rather than Enterprise that Star Trek would have carried on as an anthology with DS9 as the base--even if only it was a few TV movies a year.  Even with the war over and most of the core characters gone, there was so much groundwork laid with Bajor, Cardassia and the wormhole that there were years worth of story to tell.   

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Since I am working from home right now I have been watching episodes of. DS9 and I forgot just how well written the Nog story arc actually is.   He starts out as supporting character with very little going for him but slowly works his way to the first Ferengi in Star Fleet.   One of the stories I like best in the Ferengi arc is when Quark gets tricked into marrying the Klingon woman and has to help her keep her House or stay married to her.  I love how two different systems and ways of thinking intertwined so I found it fascinating when Nog had to figure out how to gain respect from the much bigger and stronger Klingons who were now stationed on DS9.     If anything I wish he had some more scenes with Worf or if he asked for some fighting lessons.  
 

I really like the idea of Nog in Star Fleet and would have likely watched a show centered around him as he moved on to bigger and better things.

I was sad when I heard the actor who played him died.

Edited by Chaos Theory
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On 6/30/2020 at 12:57 PM, Chaos Theory said:

I forgot just how well written the Nog story arc actually is.   He starts out as supporting character with very little going for him but slowly works his way to the first Ferengi in Star Fleet.

Things like this is why DS9 is so good.  They took the lesson from TNG of developing the secondary characters like they do with the primary, specifically O'Brien, and applied it across the board.  Nog, Rom, Garak, Dukat, etc.  And then they started doing the same with the tertiary characters like Morn.

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These is the reason DS9 is my favourite Trek:  the real storylines for secondary characters and the long term arcs for them. On TOS, only Kirk, Spock and  Bones had any stories, and on TNG it was Picard, Wesley, Riker and Data with some Geordie. Crusher and Deanna were lucky if they got one episode a season.

DS9 gave real developmental stories to many characters, not just Sisko, Kira, Dax, Julian, Odo and Quark but Jake, Garak, Rom, Nog,  Dukat and even third or fourth level characters like Dumar, Kassidy Yates and Lita got developmental arcs.  It wasn't just about the (male) heroes, it was about how everyone developed and changed.

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It was also about how their world developed and changed.  The relationships with Bejour, the Federation, the Cardassians/Romulans/Klingons/Dominion--all of these developed and changed in logical, society-driven ways that made sense for each culture.  DS9 wasn't just about the crew of the station--it was about the whole Alpha Quadrant and a bunch of the Gamma as well.

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On 7/5/2020 at 10:44 AM, Ailianna said:

It was also about how their world developed and changed.  The relationships with Bejour, the Federation, the Cardassians/Romulans/Klingons/Dominion--all of these developed and changed in logical, society-driven ways that made sense for each culture.  DS9 wasn't just about the crew of the station--it was about the whole Alpha Quadrant and a bunch of the Gamma as well.

One of the best long form stories was the rise and fall of Cardassia and Bajor and their relationship to each other.   

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7 hours ago, Hiyo said:

I liked Nog fine, but his progression from Cadet to Lt. Junior Grade was way too fast. I mean, I know there was a war going on, but still.

I feel like him getting promoted to Ensign made sense as that was basically the role he was doing. I'd imagine most of his classmates (well who lived) had similar experiences. I do feel bad(?) that he and probably his classmates didn't get to finish college. But I guess that there reason for going to was to join Starfleet not experience college.

As for junior grade, yeah that was sort of taked on at the end to have Sisko promote him being one of the last things he does as captain.

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3 hours ago, blueray said:

I feel like him getting promoted to Ensign made sense as that was basically the role he was doing. I'd imagine most of his classmates (well who lived) had similar experiences. I do feel bad(?) that he and probably his classmates didn't get to finish college. But I guess that there reason for going to was to join Starfleet not experience college.

As for junior grade, yeah that was sort of taked on at the end to have Sisko promote him being one of the last things he does as captain.

For what service would it be fast? In US armed forces it is almost automatic after 18 peacetime months. With total war and those numbers of  casualties demanding survivors to move up it isn't out of bounds at all.

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15 minutes ago, Raja said:

For what service would it be fast? In US armed forces it is almost automatic after 18 peacetime months. With total war and those numbers of  casualties demanding survivors to move up it isn't out of bounds at all.

Huh? I'm honestly not sure what your asking me lol. Nog was working as the helmsman and was doing a good job with this. He was shown working really hard and learning from his senior officers. So he starts filling the rule of an ensign officer (and was promoted for this). If the deminion war didn't happen, then Nog would have completed his field placement and returned to school as he planned to do. It is stated in TNG that Starfleet training is four years. Nog would be then going into his third year. 

Edit: wait were you actually replying to the post above me?

Edited by blueray
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Fast placement during time of war isn't unusual.  For example, a lot of upper year medical and nursing students were pulled out of their classrooms to be front line workers in the last few months.

How DS9 Season 4 Saved The Darkest Star Trek Series  at Screenrann by John Orquiola. 

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Unfortunately, DS9 wasn't the ratings juggernaut that The Next Generation was; by the end of season 3, ratings had fallen significantly. However, as showrunner Ira Steven Behr gained creative control over the series from DS9's creators Rick Berman and Michael Piller, he already began fixing the problems with the series: Behr got DS9 its own starship, the U.S.S. Defiant, he and his writing staff introduced the villainous Dominion, and, perhaps most importantly, Avery Brooks' Commander Sisko received his long-deserved promotion to Captain.

An interesting argument. Not really buying that a shaved head for Sisko was that significant though.

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Nog was working as the helmsman and was doing a good job with this. He was shown working really hard and learning from his senior officers. So he starts filling the rule of an ensign officer (and was promoted for this). If the deminion war didn't happen, then Nog would have completed his field placement and returned to school as he planned to do. It is stated in TNG that Starfleet training is four years. Nog would be then going into his third year. 

But in order to be a helmsmen, you have to at least graduate from Starfleet, no? And certainly to be an ensign you needed to. War or no war, the speed of it all was just a bit ridiculous. I can understand them needing cadets to fill out the ranks during the war, but a cadet being the primary helmsman for the fleet's flagship? Very ridiculous indeed.

They could have just had him be a non-commissioned officer, and then Sisko's final act could have been to tell Nog he used some pull with Starfleet to have his time spent during the war count as credit towards his graduation, and congrats, you're an ensign now!

Granted, this was the same show where everyone thought it was a good idea to have the station's entire senior staff go on missions together on the same ship, and have the doctor manning whatever random bridge station console the plot required him to be at...

Edited by Hiyo
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I have a friend who wanted to get into acting some years back, and especially wanted to be on Star Trek.  As he tells it, he was slotted for a recurring non-speaking part on Voyager, but when Genevieve Bujold bolted and was replaced by Kate Mulgrew, he was written out.  He's been to numerous conventions and has many, many models of starships.  He has had a number of acting gigs over the years, but his only appearance on a Trek show was as a corpse. ("See there?  That's my elbow!") 

My friend had no understanding of why I preferred DS9 when it first came out.  And to this day he still doesn't understand.      

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On 7/14/2020 at 4:02 PM, statsgirl said:

Fast placement during time of war isn't unusual.  For example, a lot of upper year medical and nursing students were pulled out of their classrooms to be front line workers in the last few months.

How DS9 Season 4 Saved The Darkest Star Trek Series  at Screenrann by John Orquiola. 

An interesting argument. Not really buying that a shaved head for Sisko was that significant though.

I think there is a marked difference in Sisko after Avery Brooks is allowed to look like himself.  (Also bald Sisko is hot Sisko, on the shallow side.)  If the actor is more comfortable in his skin and more able to be at his best, it comes across in the performance.  Plus, head hair/clean shaven Sisko looks very young; the goatee and then the shaved head make him look less like Riker's younger brother and more like someone who can hold his own in the corridors of power.  I think they aren't arguing that's the only significant change, but I think it was an important one  If I didn't already know every episode by heart, I would definitely be more inclined to watch if I saw bald Sisko than head hair Skisko.  Kind of like seeing Harry Morgan in a M*A*S*H episode makes me more likely to want to watch.

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 As an actor, you should be able to portray a character regardless of that's character's styling, fashion sense, etc.   Just because someone personally prefers to be bald doesn't mean their performance should be impacted because the character has hair.   That's why it's called acting.

 Avery came across as wooden and low energy in the beginning   While there was a noticeable change in Sisko after the styling change,, I think it's somewhat coincidental.  He had improved a lot before season 4 and the tone of the show had changed with the increased Dominion threat and Sisko being promoted to captain.   It took around 3 years for Mulgrew to settle into the bolder style Janeway rather than the pontificating rule-follower she was early one, so sometimes it takes a while to find the best voice for the character.    

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7 hours ago, Maverick said:

 As an actor, you should be able to portray a character regardless of that's character's styling, fashion sense, etc.   Just because someone personally prefers to be bald doesn't mean their performance should be impacted because the character has hair.   That's why it's called acting.

But these choices also mean he can't be who he wants to be in his personal life too.  I guess I'm more willing to allow people to be human, and to have their humanity affect their work, even if it's acting, than some others may be.

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On 7/14/2020 at 4:02 PM, statsgirl said:

Fast placement during time of war isn't unusual.  For example, a lot of upper year medical and nursing students were pulled out of their classrooms to be front line workers in the last few months.

How DS9 Season 4 Saved The Darkest Star Trek Series  at Screenrann by John Orquiola. 

An interesting argument. Not really buying that a shaved head for Sisko was that significant though.

 

14 hours ago, Ailianna said:

I think there is a marked difference in Sisko after Avery Brooks is allowed to look like himself.  (Also bald Sisko is hot Sisko, on the shallow side.)  If the actor is more comfortable in his skin and more able to be at his best, it comes across in the performance.  Plus, head hair/clean shaven Sisko looks very young; the goatee and then the shaved head make him look less like Riker's younger brother and more like someone who can hold his own in the corridors of power.  I think they aren't arguing that's the only significant change, but I think it was an important one  If I didn't already know every episode by heart, I would definitely be more inclined to watch if I saw bald Sisko than head hair Skisko.  Kind of like seeing Harry Morgan in a M*A*S*H episode makes me more likely to want to watch.

Bald Sisko for the win!

I know, I know, I'm shallow. And my mother was a fan of "Spencer: For Hire", so when DS9 first aired (yes, I'm shallow AND old😂) all I could see was "Hawk!, with hair!"

 

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Watching this show I am impressed how well it juggles so many characters.  Some of whom would never have been given the time of day elsewhere.

Anybody else like Garak?  That actor is so good.  I find the character very likable and  what I like about him is all under the surface.

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On 8/22/2020 at 7:46 PM, magdalene said:

Watching this show I am impressed how well it juggles so many characters.  Some of whom would never have been given the time of day elsewhere.

Anybody else like Garak?  That actor is so good.  I find the character very likable and  what I like about him is all under the surface.

Garak is my favorite character. There are so many layers to him, and the actor is superb. 

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I finally got around to watch DS9, binge-watched it over the summer as we dealt with quarantine etc. I always kinda dismissed it bc what's Star Trek if not on a space ship? gotta say, I was wrong. It's by far the best Star Trek show for me so far. It takes a while to find its groove (the first season is a mix of potential and really ridiculous plots) and some of the characters only start working a bit later in the show, mainly Sisko and Dax IMO while the others seem more defined and settled into their roles from the start. But the characters are really great, everyone has personality and their own motivation and is interesting all by themselves, which can't be said for half the TNG crew or the TOS supporting cast (Kirk/Spock/McCoy remain great characters though, their equivalent is hard to find even in any newer show). Even the bit players on DS9 feel like fully fleshed out complex people and that's no small feat!

I wish Garak had been used more, cause I also thought he was a great character, very unpredictable in his actions and yet they always made sense for him anyway. Even when people knew he was dangerous as hell they kind of kept underestimating him bc he was that good at presenting a harmless front.

the only thing I'll say is that I thought the finale kind of let it down. TNG by contrast had an amazing finale. But DS9 I thought the entire Dukat and the Pah Wraith plot was very over the top and the entire final showdown with Sisko in the caves was a bit...ridiculous. I would have liked Dukat to bow out earlier than that and Winn vs Sisko to come to a head in a different way. Hell Winn would have made an interesting final villain by herself. The goodbye between Odo and Kira was over the top cheesy as well. And if they were going to do flashbacks, it felt dumb to have Worf remember Ezri who he'd barely known for a year and not Jadzia (I get that they probably didn't have permission to use the actress's face but...why on earth would Worf think about Ezri on his final day on DS9 instead of the wife he'd met and married there).

I also thought the Ezri/Bashir romance was kind of tacked on, they met, then didn't have any notable interactions for a while, then suddenly they were in love. Also didn't like that they tried to retroactively make Bashir/Jadzia a thing by having everyone talk about how she considered him, cause I didn't see that at all. I always got the impression Jadzia liked Julian and found him attractive but had dismissed him as a romantic option pretty early on cause she didn't see it going anywhere and he wouldn't be able to handle her. When Worf came on the station she was interested pretty immediately. Also that bit where Bashir freaks out about having "lost" her at the end of S6 (where they already knew they'd replace her with Ezri) felt out of character cause he and Jadzia had settled into a close friendship by then and he really didn't seem to be pining. Felt disrespectful to the Worf/Jadzia romance too, which I actually liked quite a lot, bc they made an interesting couple, full of contradictions but it worked for them and their love of a good challenge.

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7 hours ago, KatWay said:

And if they were going to do flashbacks, it felt dumb to have Worf remember Ezri who he'd barely known for a year and not Jadzia (I get that they probably didn't have permission to use the actress's face but...why on earth would Worf think about Ezri on his final day on DS9 instead of the wife he'd met and married there

Unfortunately that's the case. They couldn't get the rights to use her image (or that she wanted to much money for it).  This however, has later been debated by Terry Farrell (Jadzia). I guess we'll never know. But I think if they couldn't get her then the shouldn't have shown Worf's at all as it would be all about her.

I disagree about Ezri and Bashir though. They were (are?) a cute couple. She at this point has moved on from Worf (which is good as she isn't Jadzia) and is interested in Bashir.  Unlike Jadzia, I feel like him and Ezri have stuff in common and should at least date. It sort of came in the left field but not exactly, I feel like the two had scenes earlier in the season. It is also not nearly as bad as Seven and Chakotay were as they made no sense. 

Edited by blueray
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 According to Terry Farrell, she was never asked about being in the finale and would have agreed to if she had been.   Hollywood union rules are strange.  If they were just airing a scene that had previously been filmed (and aired) as a flashback, I don't know why you would have to ask the actor for permission.  I could see having to pay them for the episode it was aired as part of but it seems like the studio should be able to use the footage they own as long as they pay for it.

 My main problem with Dax in season was how they had most of the male cast drooling after her and going on and on (and on) about how she was the most awesomest being that ever walk the universe while they cry a flood of tears into their synthale.   Dax was intelligent, an expert pilot and accomplished officer but they mainly talked about how beautiful she was.    DS9 did a lot of things right, but they really had a dudebro mentally about relationships (see also O'Brien/Keiko, especially with the cringey way Bashir impacted that).

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2 hours ago, blueray said:

Unfortunately that's the case. They couldn't get the rights to use her image (or that she wanted to much money for it).  This however, has later been debated by Terry Farrell (Jadzia). I guess we'll never know. But I think if they couldn't get her then the shouldn't have shown Worf's at all as it would be all about her.

I disagree about Ezri and Bashir though. They were (are?) a cute couple. She at this point has moved on from Worf (which is good as she isn't Jadzia) and is interested in Bashir.  Unlike Jadzia, I feel like him and Ezri have stuff in common and should at least date. It sort of came in the left field but not exactly, I feel like the two had scenes earlier in the season. It is also not nearly as bad as Seven and Chakotay were as they made no sense. 

yeah, not everyone had a black and white flashback, so just omit Worf's if it's not gonna feature Jadzia. It just felt really unrealistic for him to think about Ezri and their two adventures instead.

I think Bashir and Ezri worked character-wise and they had chemistry, they just suffered from being kind of thrown together in the last season. I mean the episode where Ezri moves on from Worf is the same episode she suddenly confesses to having feelings for Bashir. It's all really fast and there's a lack of actual build-up there. If there'd been just one episode where they were thrown together on their own somewhere that would have worked better IMO. And I maintain that the retroactive Jadzia/Bashir talk made things unnecessarily weird, kinda like Bashir had missed his chance with Jadzia but there was Ezri now, as a new prize just for him. It would have been better if Ezri instead of saying "if Worf hadn't shown up it would have been you" (which made no sense to me and wasn't implied by the show up to then) had said something like, oh she really loved you but she always knew you'd make better friends than lovers. Little things, but they would have improved the storyline.

Seven and Chakotay remain the most "who asked for this?" couple in Trek I believe lol. Star Trek in general is very hit-or-miss with romance, for every good couple you get a non-sensical or badly written one.

1 hour ago, Maverick said:

 My main problem with Dax in season was how they had most of the male cast drooling after her and going on and on (and on) about how she was the most awesomest being that ever walk the universe while they cry a flood of tears into their synthale.   Dax was intelligent, an expert pilot and accomplished officer but they mainly talked about how beautiful she was.    DS9 did a lot of things right, but they really had a dudebro mentally about relationships (see also O'Brien/Keiko, especially with the cringey way Bashir impacted that).

very true, I like to give DS9 props for having the female characters be much more interesting and with more depth than the shows before, but there was a weird vibe with how they talked about Jadzia, like she was a prize that Worf won over Quark and Bashir when honestly they'd both been around for three years before Worf even showed up and got NOWHERE with her. dudebro mentality isn't wrong haha.

Edited by KatWay
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8 hours ago, KatWay said:

I finally got around to watch DS9, binge-watched it over the summer as we dealt with quarantine etc. I always kinda dismissed it bc what's Star Trek if not on a space ship? gotta say, I was wrong. It's by far the best Star Trek show for me so far. It takes a while to find its groove (the first season is a mix of potential and really ridiculous plots) and some of the characters only start working a bit later in the show, mainly Sisko and Dax IMO while the others seem more defined and settled into their roles from the start. But the characters are really great, everyone has personality and their own motivation and is interesting all by themselves, which can't be said for half the TNG crew or the TOS supporting cast (Kirk/Spock/McCoy remain great characters though, their equivalent is hard to find even in any newer show). Even the bit players on DS9 feel like fully fleshed out complex people and that's no small feat!

I wish Garak had been used more, cause I also thought he was a great character, very unpredictable in his actions and yet they always made sense for him anyway. Even when people knew he was dangerous as hell they kind of kept underestimating him bc he was that good at presenting a harmless front.

the only thing I'll say is that I thought the finale kind of let it down. TNG by contrast had an amazing finale. But DS9 I thought the entire Dukat and the Pah Wraith plot was very over the top and the entire final showdown with Sisko in the caves was a bit...ridiculous. I would have liked Dukat to bow out earlier than that and Winn vs Sisko to come to a head in a different way. Hell Winn would have made an interesting final villain by herself. The goodbye between Odo and Kira was over the top cheesy as well. And if they were going to do flashbacks, it felt dumb to have Worf remember Ezri who he'd barely known for a year and not Jadzia (I get that they probably didn't have permission to use the actress's face but...why on earth would Worf think about Ezri on his final day on DS9 instead of the wife he'd met and married there).

I also thought the Ezri/Bashir romance was kind of tacked on, they met, then didn't have any notable interactions for a while, then suddenly they were in love. Also didn't like that they tried to retroactively make Bashir/Jadzia a thing by having everyone talk about how she considered him, cause I didn't see that at all. I always got the impression Jadzia liked Julian and found him attractive but had dismissed him as a romantic option pretty early on cause she didn't see it going anywhere and he wouldn't be able to handle her. When Worf came on the station she was interested pretty immediately. Also that bit where Bashir freaks out about having "lost" her at the end of S6 (where they already knew they'd replace her with Ezri) felt out of character cause he and Jadzia had settled into a close friendship by then and he really didn't seem to be pining. Felt disrespectful to the Worf/Jadzia romance too, which I actually liked quite a lot, bc they made an interesting couple, full of contradictions but it worked for them and their love of a good challenge.

Love this post.  I agree the ending between Sisko and Dukat was weak, especially given the previous confrontation wherein the Prophets and the Pah Wraiths occupied Kira and Jake.  On the flip side, the Ezri and Julian made perfect sense to me.  They had similar personalities, and she carried the Symbiant's memories of all of his advances towards Jadzia.  

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totally forgot to say but I also thought it was weird that pretty much all the female characters were portrayed as bisexual or lesbian in the mirror universe while all the men were still...straight. If you're gonna play around with fluid sexuality at least make it equal opportunity!

on a more positive note, I will say that I enjoy Worf as a character more on DS9 than on TNG. He makes a great foil for the more edgy characters and provides a different perspective. Everyone on TNG was already pretty straight-laced so he just came across as even more of a stiff lol.

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On 8/27/2020 at 10:09 AM, KatWay said:

yeah, not everyone had a black and white flashback, so just omit Worf's if it's not gonna feature Jadzia. It just felt really unrealistic for him to think about Ezri and their two adventures instead

The flashbacks were basically about the people who were leaving DS9, so they couldn’t skip Worf entirely.  However I do agree that their clip choices were odd- none of them seem like particularly pleasant memories for him.  And one is from Our Man Bashir, which technically wasn’t even Worf!  Show him commanding the Defiant, or serving on a Klingon ship.  Have him drinking with Martok or Kor.  Sure, give him a moment with Ezri, but include Jadzia too.  Which, for the record, I personally suspect Rick Berman is responsible for Terry Farrell’s absence in the finale.

In general though, I think DS9 has the strongest series finale.  TNG was enjoyable - but it’s a little techy, and it’s never really felt like a conclusion to me, given that they continued on with the films.  Voyager could have used at least one episode on Earth to show what was next for everyone.  Enterprise might have been good, except for the weirdness caused by the framing device.

With DS9, we do get resolutions for all the characters.  We wrap up both the Dominion War, and the Pagh-Wraith stories, both of which had been building up during the 10 episode finale mega arc.  Yes, the latter could have used an entire episode in itself- but it does feel like a conclusion.  That’s what I like about the episode(s) overall- there is a sense finality and that the story is complete, even as the characters go on to other things.

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6 hours ago, Chyromaniac said:

With DS9, we do get resolutions for all the characters.  We wrap up both the Dominion War, and the Pagh-Wraith stories, both of which had been building up during the 10 episode finale mega arc.  Yes, the latter could have used an entire episode in itself- but it does feel like a conclusion.  That’s what I like about the episode(s) overall- there is a sense finality and that the story is complete, even as the characters go on to other things.

I would have done away with the pah wraith plot altogether, or at least limit it to rare appearances shrouded in mystery. They didn't need to be a fully fleshed evil Big Bad straight out of a cheap afternoon fantasy show (I did enjoy the evil Keiko episode though), with an overly convoluted "awaken the book of evil instructions with blood" plot etc. It just didn't contrast well with the Dominion War and its complex politics and nuances IMO.

If anything, I would have rather liked the Bajor joining the Federation plot resolved, Winn would have been a formidable villain in that as well and it would have brought the story of Sisko full circle. After all, DS9 started out with the Bajor/Cardassia/Federation conflict, it wasn't Star Trek: Dominion War.

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33 minutes ago, KatWay said:

I would have done away with the pah wraith plot altogether, or at least limit it to rare appearances shrouded in mystery. They didn't need to be a fully fleshed evil Big Bad straight out of a cheap afternoon fantasy show (I did enjoy the evil Keiko episode though), with an overly convoluted "awaken the book of evil instructions with blood" plot etc. It just didn't contrast well with the Dominion War and its complex politics and nuances IMO.

If anything, I would have rather liked the Bajor joining the Federation plot resolved, Winn would have been a formidable villain in that as well and it would have brought the story of Sisko full circle. After all, DS9 started out with the Bajor/Cardassia/Federation conflict, it wasn't Star Trek: Dominion War.

Co-signed. I was actually coming here to say basically the same thing. I thought the finale was great as a wrap up to the Dominion War, meh as to the Prophets/Pah Wraith, and weak as to the overall story. I know they kind of forgot about the whole Bajor joining the Federation story before that, but it would have been nice to see an actual resolution even if it might have felt sort of tacked on. I would have loved to have seen KIra in her Starfleet uniform at the end along with some conversation about the challenges ahead.

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9 hours ago, KatWay said:

If anything, I would have rather liked the Bajor joining the Federation plot resolved, Winn would have been a formidable villain in that as well and it would have brought the story of Sisko full circle. After all, DS9 started out with the Bajor/Cardassia/Federation conflict, it wasn't Star Trek: Dominion War.

Personally, I feel the conflict with the Pagh-Wraiths was Sisko's story coming full circle.  In the pilot, he thinks he is coming to DS9 to basically be the Federation envoy to Bajor, but instead finds a greater purpose as the Emissary of the Prophets.  For me it's his struggle to accept and carry out that role (culminating in the face off with Dukat) which defines much of his story.  The Bajoran political stuff was somewhat interesting early on, especially the Circle arc - but frankly it kind of feels like small potatoes once the Dominion shows up.  In retrospect, Bajor never really felt as bad off as it arguably should have been - so after a while it didn't really matter to me if the joined the Federation or not.  It felt like they would be fine either way.  Of course, ymmv.

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14 hours ago, KatWay said:

If anything, I would have rather liked the Bajor joining the Federation plot resolved, Winn would have been a formidable villain in that as well and it would have brought the story of Sisko full circle. After all, DS9 started out with the Bajor/Cardassia/Federation conflict, it wasn't Star Trek: Dominion War.

The way they wrote it, they couldn't have resolved Bajor joining the Federation before resolving the Dominion War.

Recall from Rapture that Sisko had the vision of locusts either passing by Bajor on the way to Cardassia, or of them destroying Bajor.  Meaning that if Bajor were part of the Federation, it would have been destroyed by the Dominion and Cardassia as part of the war.  But as an independent system, Bajor could have the non-aggression treaty with the Dominion that kept Bajor out of the war once the Federation had to leave DS9.

Because of that, the War had to be resolved before the Bajoran Council of Ministers could re-petition for entry into the Federation.  And given the fact that they were all but members by Rapture, the process would probably have been fast-tracked.  Half an episode from start to finish.

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5 hours ago, Chyromaniac said:

Personally, I feel the conflict with the Pagh-Wraiths was Sisko's story coming full circle.  In the pilot, he thinks he is coming to DS9 to basically be the Federation envoy to Bajor, but instead finds a greater purpose as the Emissary of the Prophets.  For me it's his struggle to accept and carry out that role (culminating in the face off with Dukat) which defines much of his story. 

see, I agree that the role of Emissary was Sisko coming full circle but I would have liked that story to culminate in him perhaps using his influence on Bajor to face off against Winn in a struggle over the loyalties of the Bajorans and their idea of their religion. Much of the storyline of his position was him coming to terms with the real power he had through the adoration of Bajoran followers and the ear of the actual prophets. I just would have found that far more interesting than the cartoonish villains that were the Pah Wraith.

38 minutes ago, SVNBob said:

The way they wrote it, they couldn't have resolved Bajor joining the Federation before resolving the Dominion War.

Recall from Rapture that Sisko had the vision of locusts either passing by Bajor on the way to Cardassia, or of them destroying Bajor.  Meaning that if Bajor were part of the Federation, it would have been destroyed by the Dominion and Cardassia as part of the war.  But as an independent system, Bajor could have the non-aggression treaty with the Dominion that kept Bajor out of the war once the Federation had to leave DS9.

Because of that, the War had to be resolved before the Bajoran Council of Ministers could re-petition for entry into the Federation.  And given the fact that they were all but members by Rapture, the process would probably have been fast-tracked.  Half an episode from start to finish.

I would have done the Bajoran conflict after the Dominion War. Maybe some Bajorans had lost faith in the prophets, maybe the prophets had stopped showing them visions or something. Could have been quite interesting to explore that. Much was always made of how spiritual the Bajorans were, compared to pretty much everyone else, but it's easy being a believer when you have the concrete, real proof of your gods right in front of you. They played a bit on that with Winn who never got to see the prophets and ended up resenting them for it, I just thought that could have been potentially much more interesting a storyline than searching for some evil book and an evil cave with evil monsters waiting to be released. But eh, just my opinion.

It also could have shown some idea of post-war Cardassia which always interested me and sadly hasn't been touched on in any canon TV show. A people like that going from what they were to badly diminished in the war? How would Bajor have reacted to a weak and rather helpless Cardassia now? I just feel like there were some potentially really cool possibilities that I would have rather seen. But the Dominion War storyline was definitely really well done! Like I said, overall I think DS9 is the best of the shows.

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5 minutes ago, KatWay said:

see, I agree that the role of Emissary was Sisko coming full circle but I would have liked that story to culminate in him perhaps using his influence on Bajor to face off against Winn in a struggle over the loyalties of the Bajorans and their idea of their religion. Much of the storyline of his position was him coming to terms with the real power he had through the adoration of Bajoran followers and the ear of the actual prophets. I just would have found that far more interesting than the cartoonish villains that were the Pah Wraith.

I would have done the Bajoran conflict after the Dominion War. Maybe some Bajorans had lost faith in the prophets, maybe the prophets had stopped showing them visions or something. Could have been quite interesting to explore that. Much was always made of how spiritual the Bajorans were, compared to pretty much everyone else, but it's easy being a believer when you have the concrete, real proof of your gods right in front of you. They played a bit on that with Winn who never got to see the prophets and ended up resenting them for it, I just thought that could have been potentially much more interesting a storyline than searching for some evil book and an evil cave with evil monsters waiting to be released. But eh, just my opinion.

It also could have shown some idea of post-war Cardassia which always interested me and sadly hasn't been touched on in any canon TV show. A people like that going from what they were to badly diminished in the war? How would Bajor have reacted to a weak and rather helpless Cardassia now? I just feel like there were some potentially really cool possibilities that I would have rather seen. But the Dominion War storyline was definitely really well done! Like I said, overall I think DS9 is the best of the shows.

All of these are great ideas and would have been great to explore....as a Season 8 that took place immediately, instead of as the "season 8" as seen in the recent documentary.  There wasn't enough time to add all this to what we did get.

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On 8/31/2020 at 1:58 AM, SVNBob said:

the recent documentary

Speaking of this...again..., Shout! Factory is celebrating Star Trek Day with a marathon of Trek-related documentaries.   What We Left Behind is part of that marathon, as is the SDCC panel from 2019 about the documentary.  They're the last two pieces of the stream, scheduled to air on the 8th at 7pm PDT and 9:30 pm PDT.

Earlier in the marathon, they're also streaming Shatner's "Captains", which has him interviewing the other Trek captains.  So Avery will be included in that, as well as in separate extended interview episode.

Details about everything Shout! has planned and is airing are here: https://www.shoutfactory.com/blog/star-trek-day/

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I've always felt that the Pagh Wraith/Prophet confrontation feels like they forgot to write a resolution until the day before filming when somebody finally remembered it hadn't been resolved (a bit like Voyager's writers forgetting that Naomi Wildman's mother wasn't actually dead)! It seems incredibly anticlimactic for what should have been an epic showdown, resolving a conflict that was set up in the Pilot (or possibly the beginning of time, given the Prophets non linear nature). And I thought it would have been more fitting if Sisko had won because his friends came with him ("Stronger together!") while Dukat was alone, having betrayed everyone who might have supported him (the Dominion, Cardassia, Winn, etc). It wouldn't need to be an effects-fest (I picture it more like the conflict in The Reckoning, only when Sisko looks like faltering, another of the gang lends him their support) but it would seem to me a more fitting resolution.  

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On 9/12/2020 at 1:49 PM, starri said:

Shallow:  they all look phenomenal.

I couldn't work out what was wrong with Nana's face - before realising that she's actually human and isn't meant to have a crinkly nose!

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As with most of the series, the Emissary/Prophets/Bajoran religion thread takes a backseat to the Dominion War.  When the final 10 episode arc starts, both story threads are running concurrently.   But then in the middle the Prophets story vanishes completely.  You would think they would dovetail the two themes together (similar to how they came together in The Sacrifice of Angels only grander) but instead Dukat, Winn and the Pah Wraiths (all elements that had been building for years, some from the beginning) are tacked on in the last half hour.   The worst part is, it doesn't make a lot of sense.   Sisko's great destiny is to...throw a possessed Dukat off a cliff?   An and that kills the Pah Wraiths forever, somehow?   It's all rather anticlimactic.  They structured the whole thing as Sisko vs. Dukat, but a minimum Kira should have been there.  She was basically the Emissary's right hand (even being chosen by the Prophets in The Reckoning) and had as much as, if not more of, a history with and hatred of Dukat as well as Kai Winn--who was basically a non-entity in the final battle.  

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I am rewatching this show from the beginning (currently almost done with season 2). I remember watching DS9 pretty regularly when it first aired, but then falling off after like season 3. So in a way, a lot of these episodes will be sort of new to me. I don't think I appreciated how good - how complex, thoughtful and moving - this show was. The relationships alone (Kira/Sisko, Garak/Bashir, Jadzia/Sisko, etc.) are incredibly well done. Just fun to sort of rediscover this show again.

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It definitely picks up in season 3. I'm also doing a rewatch and am toward the middle of season 2. I really like how seeds are being planted that set up later episodes. Especially with the dominion. 

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The ending of the Pah Wraiths always reminds me of the climatic scenes of Indiana Jones and the Lost Crusade, from the time they enter Petra to the destruction of the grail, the guardian and the Treasury House of Petra. just my opinion.

Edited because I realized they didn't destroy the entire city of Petra, only the most famous building in it. I've been fascinated with Petra ever since I saw The Last Crusade for the first time.

Edited by friendperidot
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