S01.E07: Chivalry

[Door County Cherry]

Airs 1/6/19:

Quote

A look at how John operates while Debra tries to move forward. 

[Lady of nod]

R U  kidding me?  I'm half way through epi 7 and it's a recap of 1-6? I don't need to rewatch things that aired a month ago. Get on with it already. This series should have been 4 parts at most.

[crgirl412]

It was interesting to see what may have been going on "behind the scenes."  He is a sick one. 

After the finale I am going to listen and read all of the real stuff so I'll have a much clearer picture of what happened.   

[breezy424]

I liked the 'recap' because it showed John's motivations and his mindset through this whole thing.

Geez Debra...why did you meet up with him after you requested a restraining order?

And did we actually find out if John actually withdrew from the drugs or was that an act?  I got a bit distracted during that part and maybe missed it.

[crgirl412]

5 minutes ago, breezy424 said:

I liked the 'recap' because it showed John's motivations and his mindset through this whole thing.

Geez Debra...why did you meet up with him after you requested a restraining order?

And did we actually find out if John actually withdrew from the drugs or was that an act?  I got a bit distracted during that part and maybe missed it.

He really did purposefully put himself into withdrawl to scam Deb even more.  He knew it was only temporary and he was going to continue to use. 

[nikita]

I knew his withdrawal doctor was sketchy!

[Quilt Fairy]

I couldn't believe the cops were buying John's line of bullshit about setting fire to the car.  Having possession of the key/fob does not give you ownership of the car.  If I steal your car key and use it to drive away your car, is it my car now?  No. If the title is in Debra's name (which I assume it is, she had it before she met him), it's Debra's car, and he set fire to it, which is a criminal act.  Period, end of story.

Debra sitting next to her lawyer at the police station and giggling about how "We had some really good times in that car" reminded me of how real life Debra sounds on the podcast.

[CaliCheeseSucks]

Fascinating episode. Did I suspect some of it, sure. But I don't think I really processed until this hour how little we had seen wholly of his mechanisms from his side.

I still think Debra is a dummy. I'm sorry, but I cannot shake that opinion. H's threatened so many people that matter to her.

[MsTree]

2 hours ago, breezy424 said:

I liked the 'recap' because it showed John's motivations and his mindset through this whole thing.

Geez Debra...why did you meet up with him after you requested a restraining order?

I also liked the recap.  And Debra, meeting with a person after requesting a restraining order is a 'no-no' per Judge Judy 101.

[zillabreeze]

20 minutes ago, MsTree said:

And Debra, meeting with a person after requesting a restraining order is a 'no-no' per Judge Judy 101.

That lawyer had a couple of chances to read her the riot act.  Not that she'd have listened, but I want to see someone grab her and shake her silly.

[Andromeda]

I can't believe those cops bought the pile of crap he was selling them. Seriously? The car just happened to have been stolen after he snuck out of the bushes to drive it away? I hope they don't have kids and dogs, or they'd really believe "a dog ate my homework."

[hoosiermom]

Damn. I thought tonight was the last episode. I recorded all of the episodes so I could binge watch them which I did today but now I have to wait a week to see the final episode! I have been riveted by this story. Have to wait to listen to the podcast now which I am very much looking forward to.Debra was just a very gullible women. As we saw tonight other women found him out and dumped him immediately.i would like to think I would be in that category. I have a terrific BS meter.

[TV Diva Queen]

I’m trying so hard to stay unspoiled for this. I agree that this should have been like 4 pets. I just can’t with Deb. She just can’t quit him. 

[Empress1]

7 hours ago, CaliCheeseSucks said:

I still think Debra is a dummy. I'm sorry, but I cannot shake that opinion. H's threatened so many people that matter to her.

When Cyrus the lawyer asked her if John had threatened to kill her and she was like "No but he did threaten to shoot my daughter with a sniper rifle and throw her in the ocean" I was thinking "Fool, do you hear yourself?"

[BusyOctober]

I think its the baby voice that irks me the most.  Debra is a 40-something business woman with 5 marriages, 3 kids and grandchildren. She's lived through the murder of her own sister by a controlling abuser.  She may have had a mostly privileged life, but she can't be THAT sheltered or innocent.  Her baby whispery voice and the wide eyes & perpetual flummoxed, "Bambi on ice for the first time" facial expressions when confronted with basic info just pushes me over the edge.  Her daughters have more street smarts, but they have the same baby chipmunk caught in a trap manner of squeaking speaking. 

All that said, I can sort of understand how Debra met with John after the restraining order was requested.  She was trying to make it all go a way.  Too bad her lawyer didn't fully understand the width & breadth of dimness he was dealing with when he took Debra's case.  If he had known she was so clueless, he might have spent time reviewing what the RO meant, how to behave once the judge granted it, and why it would be important to STAY THE FUCK AWAY from John.  Of course, he'd have to use picture books and those therapy puppets used w/ small children to work through trauma. Maybe use a "Stranger Danger" video or an episode of Sesame Street to help someone with Debra's pre-school cognitive ability understand.

[EdnasEdibles]

I'm confused as to what was going on with the Narcotics Anonymous leader. From what I can gather - John slept with the leader's wife. Took photos of her. And was now blackmailing the Al-Anon leader to keep getting clean pee or he'd send the photos to everyone. Is that right?

[Ninny]

14 minutes ago, BusyOctober said:

I think its the baby voice that irks me the most.  Debra is a 40-something business woman with 5 marriages, 3 kids and grandchildren. She's lived through the murder of her own sister by a controlling abuser.  She may have had a mostly privileged life, but she can't be THAT sheltered or innocent.  Her baby whispery voice and the wide eyes & perpetual flummoxed, "Bambi on ice for the first time" facial expressions when confronted with basic info just pushes me over the edge.  Her daughters have more street smarts, but they have the same baby chipmunk caught in a trap manner of squeaking speaking. 

I think at the time this was happening that Debra was about 59, which makes the baby voice and giggling even that much worse.  The vocal fry with the daughters is bad but, I just can't with a woman that age doing the little girly giggles.

 I do have to give her props tho, for putting herself out there with this.  She had to know she would come out looking like a desperate, self absorbed nitwit.  

6 minutes ago, EdnasEdibles said:

I'm confused as to what was going on with the Narcotics Anonymous leader. From what I can gather - John slept with the leader's wife. Took photos of her. And was now blackmailing the Al-Anon leader to keep getting clean pee or he'd send the photos to everyone. Is that right?

I don't know.  I thought he had slept with the leader.  Didn't he say something like "he didn't usually like having sex with guys."

[Ohwell]

1 hour ago, Empress1 said:

When Cyrus the lawyer asked her if John had threatened to kill her and she was like "No but he did threaten to shoot my daughter with a sniper rifle and throw her in the ocean" I was thinking "Fool, do you hear yourself?"

At one point, Cyrus looked like his head was going to explode.  I wish he'd taken himself off the case because he now knows his client is too stupid to represent.

I agree with others that this show could have been wrapped up in four episodes--ok, six at most.  I feel like it's dragged on too long.    

[EdnasEdibles]

8 minutes ago, Ninny said:

I don't know.  I thought he had slept with the leader.  Didn't he say something like "he didn't usually like having sex with guys."

Ah, OK. So he had photos of that guy that he was going to show his wife. Makes more sense. That part confused me. 

[Ohwell]

13 minutes ago, Ninny said:

 I do have to give her props tho, for putting herself out there with this.  She had to know she would come out looking like a desperate, self absorbed nitwit.  

I'm sorry but I don't give her props at all.  First of all, I assume she's getting paid a nice sum of money.  Second, she's hoping she comes off as a victim, and even some sort of heroine for alerting women to the Dirty Johns of the world. 

[nr65000]

3 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

I'm sorry but I don't give her props at all.  First of all, I assume she's getting paid a nice sum of money.  Second, she's hoping she comes off as a victim, and even some sort of heroine for alerting women to the Dirty Johns of the world. 

100%.  Debra, her mother and daughters all  whispered and giggled their way through the podcast interviews completely believing they would be the objects of sympathy and absolutely loving the attention.  Debra is probably the least self-aware person I have ever heard of.  

[Empress1]

40 minutes ago, BusyOctober said:

Debra is a 40-something business woman

Older than that - she met John when she was 59.

[Ninny]

7 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

I'm sorry but I don't give her props at all.  First of all, I assume she's getting paid a nice sum of money.  Second, she's hoping she comes off as a victim, and even some sort of heroine for alerting women to the Dirty Johns of the world. 

That's true.  I was trying to be a little nice since I kind of feel like I'm victim bashing but, nevermind!  Also, she's probably too much of a self absorbed nitwit to see how she's looking to everyone. Probably does see herself as a heroine.

[bichonblitz]

I had a problem with this episode because the replay's showed John and his crazy antic/ thoughts but how do we know what he was really thinking, who he was contacting, when, what he actually said to the police when he burned the car, etc..... Granted, we know he was batshit nuts but this is supposed to be a true story. That whole re-enactment of what lead up to his showing up late to Debra's charity event is pure speculation. A waste of an episode. 

[BusyOctober]

11 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

Older than that - she met John when she was 59.

Just...wow.  It is very hard to believe she did so well in her business.  If I were a potential client, that voice and look of "DUUUUHHH!" would end any purchase I was considering.

[Bluedog100]

Thankfully I have no personal experience with this but were those fentanyl suckers the doctor a d John had in their mouths? I thought they were syringes at first.  Is this a form of pain management for cancer patients?

[TattleTeeny]

59 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

I'm sorry but I don't give her props at all.  First of all, I assume she's getting paid a nice sum of money.  Second, she's hoping she comes off as a victim, and even some sort of heroine for alerting women to the Dirty Johns of the world. 

She is a victim, regardless of how (mind-numbingly) stupid she was; not liking her (or whether she makes money from her story) doesn't change that fact. And do we know she views herself as a heroine--and would that assertion then apply to everyone who reveals a story about a crime that has happened to him or her?

Edited January 7, 2019 by TattleTeeny

[Ohwell]

45 minutes ago, TattleTeeny said:

She is a victim, regardless of how (mind-numbingly) stupid she was; not liking her (or whether she makes money from her story) doesn't change that fact. And do we know she views herself as a heroine--and would that assertion then apply to everyone who reveals a story about a crime that has happened to him or her?

And I say she was a willing "victim."  Also, this discussion is about her and not anyone about else who reveals a story about being a victim of a crime. 

[Empress1]

1 hour ago, Bluedog100 said:

Thankfully I have no personal experience with this but were those fentanyl suckers the doctor a d John had in their mouths? I thought they were syringes at first.  Is this a form of pain management for cancer patients?

Yes, they were lollipops. (I recognized them from Intervention.)

[Joimiaroxeu]

Good grief, John's working one woman on the phone at the same time he's working others online. I'd call him a dog but that's an insult to actual good doggies.

Working all these woman was like a full-time job for John. No wonder he got so good at it. That plus the whole sociopath/psychopath thing. How had someone not killed him?

Spoiler

(Well, before Debra's daughter eventually did the honors.)

It was sickening to see how thoroughly John had taken over Debra's life. As long as he was still alive she didn't stand a chance.

Debra, he took your car and burned it because he could and because he's evil. Stop trying to figure out evil. It's not possible unless you're also evil, and they know you'll get so distracted you'll drop your guard.

[TV Diva Queen]

1 hour ago, Bluedog100 said:

Thankfully I have no personal experience with this but were those fentanyl suckers the doctor a d John had in their mouths? I thought they were syringes at first.  Is this a form of pain management for cancer patients?

Since you had more info than I had to start a google search and yes you are correct. It’s a fentanyl lollipop. And it’s for cancer patients. Wow.

 

Also, who was the guy he was selling it to?  

[TattleTeeny]

1 hour ago, Ohwell said:

And I say she was a willing "victim."  Also, this discussion is about her and not anyone about else who reveals a story about being a victim of a crime. 

Hey, man, all I was doing is questioning the phrase "comes off as," which implies that she hasn't been victimized; the word "willing" wasn't in the quoted material, so I didn't know that was your view (though it wouldn't really change the fact). I took your reference to other "Dirty Johns of the world" as an assertion that there are people, other than Debra, being similarly victimized. 

Edited January 7, 2019 by TattleTeeny

[Ninny]

I'm still confused as to why he had that druggie girl go to the house and put on Debra's clothes.  Was it a reason to have all the security cameras installed?

[Thisgirllovespasta]

13 minutes ago, Ninny said:

I'm still confused as to why he had that druggie girl go to the house and put on Debra's clothes.  Was it a reason to have all the security cameras installed?

It was so he could watch Debra's every move. 

[Ninny]

10 minutes ago, Thisgirllovespasta said:

It was so he could watch Debra's every move. 

That's what I thought but, I wasn't sure. I couldn't figure out any other reason for it.

[hoosiermom]

2 hours ago, TV Diva Queen said:

Since you had more info than I had to start a google search and yes you are correct. It’s a fentanyl lollipop. And it’s for cancer patients. Wow.

 

Also, who was the guy he was selling it to?  

That was the Dr. they went to about a consult for John’s detox.

[nikita]

4 hours ago, EdnasEdibles said:

I'm confused as to what was going on with the Narcotics Anonymous leader. From what I can gather - John slept with the leader's wife. Took photos of her. And was now blackmailing the Al-Anon leader to keep getting clean pee or he'd send the photos to everyone. Is that right?

Like Ninny said, he had sex with the guy ("I usually don't like doing it with guys, but...") and had pictures he'd taken in flagrante delicto. And not only was he getting the guy's pee in exchange for not showing the pix to the wife, he also got the leader to sign off on the therapy session for court when he knew John was full of shit *and* took all the cash from the box the guy had there (donations?).

[ElectricBoogaloo]

One more reason to hate John - he's one of those annoying people who has his phone set with the audible clicks while he's texting.

Not at all surprising that John is the kind of guy who was always working multiple cons at the same time. Who knew that spying on your wife was a full time job?

[TV Diva Queen]

4 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

One more reason to hate John - he's one of those annoying people who has his phone set with the audible clicks while he's texting.

Not at all surprising that John is the kind of guy who was always working multiple cons at the same time. Who knew that spying on your wife was a full time job?

I didn’t know that this was annoying. I love hearing my clicks...apparently others don’t. Maybe it’s for us old folks (I’m 54 lol)  that started on manual typewriters, we have to hear a sound to know that we hit the key. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I forgot to mention - A+ for the music in this episode! I was already loving Suicide Blonde and then we got Jane's Addiction too.

Edited January 7, 2019 by ElectricBoogaloo
typo

[918lux]

I actually really liked this episode.  Even though we can't possibly know exactly what John was doing and a lot of this was fiction, I'm cool with that - it's a dramatization after all, not a documentary.  However, I do wonder if production interviewed some of the other women he "dated" or reviewed his online dating activity to root some of this in truth.  I did find myself thinking, "man, if this guy put the amount of energy he puts in to his con in to a real profession, he'd be super successful." 

Do we know if Deborah filed for legal separation? I assumed so when she filed for the protection order, but I'm not sure.  If so, wouldn't that have solved the issue of car ownership?  If Deborah purchased the car prior to the marriage, and they were legally separated how could he claim it was marital property?  Just having the fob doesn't mean he owns it, otherwise who would ever valet their car?!  Plus, who hides in the bushes before taking a car they had previously agreed was no problem for him to take?  I hate him.

I understand Deb's desire to try to just make him go away.  She's very naive and even after everything she learned about John she thought if she gave him what he wants he'd leave them alone.  Do we know if her lawyer told her: no contact with John under any circumstances?  Or did he just assume she knew that was obvious? 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

36 minutes ago, TV Diva Queen said:

I didn’t know that this was annoying. I love hearing my clicks...apparently others don’t. Maybe it’s for us old folks (I’m 54 lol)  that started on manual typewriters, we have to hear a sound to know that we hit the key. 

I learned how to type on my mom's old manual when I was a little kid. I remember thinking how cool it was, partly because it was such a treat when she would take it out and let me play with it. Although I like the sound of typewriter keys (I just bought my sister a keyboard for her ipad that makes typewriter sounds!), I hate the clicking sound of texting. It's probably because I have really good hearing though (I'd say about 80% of the time when I say, "Did you hear that?" Mr. EB says, "Hear what?").

[zillabreeze]

4 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Maybe it’s for us old folks (I’m 54 lol)  that started on manual typewriters, we have to hear a sound to know that we hit the key. 

There are very cool keyboards for your computer that make the vintage typewriter sound!  (Learned it on Big Bang)

[TV Diva Queen]

6 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I learned how to type on my mom's old manual when I was a little kid. I remember thinking how cool it was, partly because it was such a treat when she would take it out and let me play with it. Although I like the sound of typewriter keys (I just bought my sister a keyboard for her ipad that makes typewriter sounds!), I hate the clicking sound of texting. It's probably because I have really good hearing though (I'd say about 80% of the time when I say, "Did you hear that?" Mr. EB says, "Hear what?").

Ha! I even love the sound more when I’m connected to Bluetooth speakers. The kids scream down....”mom, disconnect”, and of course I don’t, I just type a bunch of mumbo  jumbo really fast. 

[kicksave]

I find it very hard to believe that someone as stupid and clueless as Debra was able to have a successful business and managed her business and investments as well as she did. Her inability to comprehend how much trouble she is really in and then messes it up even worse by meeting up John and offering him money is mind blowing. The way she sees everything in a very childlike way...it's infuriating! I just want to slap her and say "Wake Up!" I get that she led a sheltered life and was influenced by her religious leaning mother, who is as clueless as her daughter, but still...what a needy, naive woman. John really hit the jackpot when he hooked up with her. She was ripe for the picking. John is such a sociopath that he borders on also being a psychopath. I would call him a malignant sociopath. Eric Bana probably had to take ten consecutive showers after this series wrapped.

[politichick]

6 hours ago, bichonblitz said:

I had a problem with this episode because the replay's showed John and his crazy antic/ thoughts but how do we know what he was really thinking, who he was contacting, when, what he actually said to the police when he burned the car, etc..... Granted, we know he was batshit nuts but this is supposed to be a true story. That whole re-enactment of what lead up to his showing up late to Debra's charity event is pure speculation. A waste of an episode. 

Some of it was fictionalized, I'm sure, but the producers probably spoke to the police and others with whom John interacted, just like Dateline did when that show told this sordid tale.

[Ohwell]

I guess it's a testament to the great acting on the part of Connie Britton and Eric Bana, but I think I'll have trouble seeing them in a positive light after this show.   Unfortunate, but true.

[MerBearStare]

Eric Bana must be having so much fun with this role. I did laugh a couple times during this episode at just how awful John is. "The stress is making my MS act up." What a jagoff.

I didn't realize how much I missed Cyrus Bean until this episode.

[mythoughtis]

This was pretty much dramatization.  Only if any of those people fessed  up to their parts would we actually know about it.  Can’t see that therapy group leader doing that. Although some of the women involved might have. 

 

Spoiler

As to the $30,000 withdrawal...  googling tells us that’s not how she gathered up the money. She actually did it in small withdrawals and gave it to Ronnie to hold until that night when she took it home.

Edited January 8, 2019 by mythoughtis

[sadie]

That was chilling. I’m assuming they reconstructed most of this from the subsequent investigation. Like going back into his computer files, etc.

Really scary that the one face someone presents is no real indication of what might really be going on. No wonder I have no desire to date. I’ve really enjoyed this show, can’t wait for series finale!