The Villains of Once Upon a Time

[KingOfHearts]

I voted for Cruella, and after watching the first episode I still stand by my choice. She has so much more to offer than the other two. Much fresher, better design, has better lines, stands out more, better grounded, more memorable. She just seems like a crafty lady, plus her power is unique on this show. I love how she doesn't take Rumple's crap. When I think of the Queens of Darkness, Cruella will always be the first to come to mind.

I have to say though, she does seem to have self-awareness.

I think that's what sealed the deal for me. Finally a potentially human-like villain. She's more identifiable because she's closer to people from LWM than other villains. Edited March 4, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

Cruella is hilarious, so I can't even take her seriously as a villain.  I have to say though, she does seem to have self-awareness.  I loved her line about blaming the Author being better than blaming bad judgement and gin.  

[Shanna Marie]

I voted for Cruella just because she entertains me and she seems to have the lowest potential for being screwed up. I would be interested in Rumple's story with different writers, but I don't trust these bozos to deal with him honestly. There's probably going to be some weird circumstance that ends up with him being redeemed but not really and all the heroes, and especially Belle, having to be lobotomized in order to accept him again. He's hampered by being a regular character who can't ever be totally a good guy but who has to stay on the show. I think they've already screwed up by having his terrible "never come back" banishment not even last an entire episode.

 

Cruella is an unknown quantity. I'm pretty sure she won't be sticking around, so she can be either killed or totally redeemed. If she's banished, she'll stay gone. Unless they go the Woegina weepy route with her, she'll be hard to ruin. It's not that I care so much about her story as she has the potential to be an amusing character. Already, that self awareness makes me like her, and her taking the Cruellamobile through a fast-food drive through is the kind of moment this show needs more of.

[Mari]

I do have to admit that Cruella fairly matter-of-factly insulting Rumple, and having at least a tiny bit of awareness that she's not a good person, and the possibility that she vaguely recognizes that all this is ridiculous, but why not since she just lost everything but her coat and her car,  does make her  a little more entertaining than the rest.

 

I will also admit that I've been trying to decide who was the most evil based on the usual equation(gaudy neck ornamentation + cleavage = power X evilness).  So far, Cruella's coming out at the least powerful and evil there, too. 

[Camera One]

Not that this is a requirement for a good villain by a long shot, but Cruella is the only one who both looks and acts like the Disney character, like Elsa, Anna, etc. did.  Maleficent has the look, but the performance doesn't have the cold irony of the animated version, at least thus far.  

 

As for Ursula, she doesn't look or act anything like Ursula in the movie.  She might as well be some random character called Ursula.  Again, there is nothing wrong with that, but I can't equate her with Ursula, to the point where there was no point in making her Ursula.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Cruella doesn't seem like a "villain" to me. Granted we haven't seen her backstory, but she doesn't seem out to ruin other people's lives. Even though she's an eccentric millionaire with crazy fashion sense and a thing for getting animals high, she's the most down to earth of the trio. But she's also funny and has that "screw loose" look in her eyes, which makes her entertaining.

[LizaD]

He's hampered by being a regular character who can't ever be totally a good guy but who has to stay on the show.

I think his character is hampered by the fact that they tried to shoehorn him into a "romance" and with Belle of all people. He's also being hampered by sucky writing but that's not unique to just him.

Rump/Gold worked just fine in S1 and for most of S2 until after Miller's Daughter. I'm not sure why they went off the rails after that.

I liked Cruella the most too but she doesn't actually feel like THE villain that they've done in the past. But I guess she doesn't have to be since there's 3 others. She feels like a character whose function is similar to Granny and Grumpy, comic relief and biting commentary. Or like Pam on True Blood. Kind of ironic considering Kristin is also on the show. By the way what happened to her and Mal? Something is off about Mal.

[Shanna Marie]

Rump/Gold worked just fine in S1 and for most of S2 until after Miller's Daughter. I'm not sure why they went off the rails after that.

I think the real change was in the way other characters reacted to him, which was the usual stuff on this show of not actually dealing with the issues and nobody being allowed to have normal human emotional reactions. After his initial freak-out and attempt to run, Neal kind of shrugged past everything. I don't recall them having any substantive scenes in late season 2. Here Rumple's entire quest was fulfilled, and instead of him having any kind of relationship with the son he'd finally been reunited with, they wrote him chasing after "Lacey." Neal seemed mostly just mildly annoyed by his father and didn't get to react to the fact that his father got an entire society cursed in order to get to him. I think a normal person would have reacted like "WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU?" but Neal didn't seem to notice or care, and then there was the fact that he never addressed the fact that his father murdered his mother. I guess maybe he didn't care, since his mother took off? Meanwhile, there was the sudden "he's family!" routine among the Charming clan. And then the Lacey stuff, which gets creepier the more I think about it. It was kind of sweet that David and Snow were drawn to each other, even under the curse, but both of them were affected by it, so they didn't know what was going on and it was like something unconscious in them was drawn together. It's creepy that Rumple knew exactly what was happening and pursued Lacey, even though she was the exact opposite of Belle's personality in every aspect. So does that mean that all he really cares about in Belle is her face and body, since total opposite Lacey was apparently an adequate substitute, just because she looked like Belle? And that whole relationship led to the Charmings treating him like family while he was being utterly despicable in his behavior with Lacey. Then it went further off the rails when she got her personality back and didn't care or seem bothered at all by what she'd done with him as Lacey, and they went straight to "our love is so true" territory.

 

During that whole time, he was still being selfish and nasty, but had to play nice around the others, and then the others seemed to feel that all the awful stuff he'd done before no longer mattered because he shared DNA with Henry, and I guess Cora was worse than he was. Or something. I didn't feel like the show wanted us to believe he was bad. We were supposed to see him as redeemed. This season, he seems a lot more on track, where it was acknowledged that he was awful while he played nice in public. I never felt like we were supposed to think he wasn't so bad or that he'd really been redeemed. If they thought they were showing him with PTSD and that was supposed to make him more sympathetic, that was a fail, but it was nice for me to be able to flat out consider him a villain and for the good guys to be considered wrong to have trusted him. I was so relieved that Belle kicked him out rather than saving him with her love, but I'm still worried that's how all this will be resolved.

[Camera One]

I don't know where else to put this since there isn't a Maleficent thread.

 

I was thinking about timeline.  In this time period right before the Curse, would it also have been around the time that Maleficent turned Philip into that Monster? (oops, sorry Elsa)  I wonder where Aurora's parents went, and why Maleficent still decided to punish Aurora Jr., since she presumably previously put Aurora Sr. into a Sleeping Curse.

 

We were discussing about the "friendship" between Cruella, Ursula and Maleficent in the episode thread.  I do like the camaraderie between them, and I too am curious when they decided they liked each others' company, and when they started work together.  I can imagine after the events in the flashback of the 4B premiere, they decided to band together to get back at Rumple.  When did Rumple get the Dark Curse?  Would it have been as late as when Belle was working for him?  Since the next (chronologically) time we see the Queens of Darkness together, would have been when they were trying to get the gauntlet.  I wonder if they were planning to use it on Regina, or Rumple.  The Queens did have the Gauntlet for a short time... are we to assume they did not use it within that time?  

[Rumsy4]

When Will told Hook!Rumple that they should take it outside, the latter replied that he was there for Belle. That's Rumple's ultimate goal in a nutshell. He may want power and magic and control, but he also wants to have Belle by his side, whatever the means.

[Camera One]

I was listening to the song "Poor Unfortunate Souls", and Ursula in the animated movie is somewhat similar to Rumple, in the sense that she gleefully preyed on the "miserable, lonely and depressed".  Then, she sprang a deal on them, framing it as if she was trying to help.  

[KingOfHearts]

 

I was listening to the song "Poor Unfortunate Souls", and Ursula in the animated movie is somewhat similar to Rumple, in the sense that she gleefully preyed on the "miserable, lonely and depressed".  Then, she sprang a deal on them, framing it as if she was trying to help.

I agree. There are actually several YouTube videos of that song placed on top of Rumple. I like that they're going for a departure from the movie with her character on Once, but I don't really like her all that much yet. She's the blandest of the three, no contest.

[Camera One]

I watched "101 Dalmatians" (animated version) for the first time (I think).  I didn't think Cruella was that bad before, but now I find her quite despicable.  She was ready to run someone else's truck off a cliff.  In some ways, she does share some similarities with Regina and Maleficent.  When Perdita (the mother Dalmatian) heard after she gave birth that Cruella wanted the puppies, it reminded me of Snow being pregnant fretting about Regina coming to get the baby.  Cruella wanted to kill someone's child, just like Regina and Maleficent (at least the animated version one).  Now, I'm not sure what motivation they'll give her on "Once". but I hope we at least get a scene of Pongo barking and growling at her.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

I'm not impressed with how they're handling Maleficent. Granted the character herself is fine, but she doesn't seem relevant enough to Sleeping Beauty. Most of her mythology is catered toward the events of the show's characters instead of the story she's based on. I suppose it doesn't matter as much for characters like Cora or Ingrid, because their fairy tale counterparts aren't as iconic, but Maleficent is usually marketed as the leader of all the Disney villains. She's the freaking Mistress of Evil.

 

I understand this is Once and there's a twist to ever adaptation it tackles. But if you take Enter the Dragon for instance, we were only given shards of her real story. We saw Stefan, saw the dragon, heard about Briar Rose and saw Aurora get sleep-cursed. But we were never given reasons why or a chance to explore the relationships Maleficent had with them that would warrant such hostility. We're not even sure who or what Maleficent exactly is. Her origin is a complete blank slate, and judging by the lack of interest the writers have in her background I doubt we'll see it for the rest of the season.

 

The way she's being played I can't tell if they want her to be menacing or just sympathetic. We've seen she kills people, but we haven't seen her really revel in her evil either for a while. It's similar to Regina's problem - they'll have us watch in sadness when her baby is taken away, but we're supposed to ignore the fact she's torched a village and killed a bunch of guards.

[Camera One]

I suppose we should have guessed this when they brought on three villains for the price of one.  Though I'm still astounded how they wasted her screentime in "Enter the Dragon" to give us that pointless "How Maleficent Got Her Groove Back with the help of Cheerleader Gina" time waster.  Three villains to divide limited time for, and they still had time for filler?  

 

I personally wasn't impressed with the Ursula origin story either, though at least that one gave us new information and a fuller story, albeit unconvincing and abrupt.

 

My hope is that they plan another "How Maleficent turned evil originally" flashback later on in the season.  That's the only thing that makes any sense to me, that they are just waiting to give us that reveal.  

 

I feel like I'm getting whiplash in terms of what Maleficent is supposed to be.  She's all over the place regarding the degree of her evil.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I feel like I'm getting whiplash in terms of what Maleficent is supposed to be.  She's all over the place regarding the degree of her evil.

I liked her better in S1, believe it or not. She was menacing without losing her common sense. Her dragon form wasn't misused, either. In this arc alone she's turned into a dragon three times already. It puts a damper on how epic the S1 finale was, imo. I wish this arc would have focused more on just Maleficent's story. She has enough relevance with most of the main cast that she makes sense. 

 

It's weird the writers totally bulldozed over her beef with everyone but Snowing. Losing a child is a terrible tragedy, but it's strange that she would go right back to BFFing with Regina after being locked in a basement for 30 years. She doesn't seem to care about Emma killing her, either. I'm not saying that doesn't make sense necessarily, but I feel it's another instance of the writers' tunnel vision. They only care about their shiny new toy, or in this case it's Snow and Charming's horrible deed of extra wickedness and the tears of their victim.

Edited April 5, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

I suppose we should have guessed this when they brought on three villains for the price of one.  Though I'm still astounded how they wasted her screentime in "Enter the Dragon" to give us that pointless "How Maleficent Got Her Groove Back with the help of Cheerleader Gina" time waster.  Three villains to divide limited time for, and they still had time for filler?  

Those flashbacks might have been labeled "Maleficent," but they were actually about Regina.  They made time for it because it was about Regina--Maleficent was incidental.  They didn't care if we learned about Maleficent, because what we were supposed to learn about was how Regina had met Maleficent and been an encouraging presence in her life. 

 

It would also provide some contrast--Regina made Maleficent's life better, while Snow and David made her life worse.  THe villagers Maleficent torched and Aurora?  Road kill on the way, and as important to the show.

[KAOS Agent]

The idea that Maleficent is just fine being buddies with Regina after she attacked her and her pet unicorn and then locked her up under the library for 30 years is silly. And why doesn't she care that Aurora and Phillip are running around town living happily with their baby boy? This woman can't multitask? You can hate more than one person at the same time, show. I was very excited about Maleficent returning because she had connections with so many of the main cast and they've thrown all of that away to have this stupid Snowing are evil kidnappers storyline. 

 

Also, could someone explain to me why Maleficent hasn't gone after Baby Snowflake? Wouldn't that be perfect revenge? I guess they can't have that story because it's a retread of 3B, but hey they've brought Zelena back now too. Maybe Maleficent could get some Snowflake stealing tips.

Edited April 5, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Zuleikha]

Also, could someone explain to me why Maleficent hasn't gone after Baby Snowflake?

I'd put a yet on that one. We had Snow's nightmare at the start of 4B, so I'm not going to judge that until the season is over. She's been busy with Rumple's plan, so it may be something she sees as part of the long game.

 

They made time for it because it was about Regina--Maleficent was incidental.

At the time, I thought it was more about Dragon Queen (in the non-romantic sense) than either Regina or Maleficent (although it did a nice job of filling in some of the gaps for me of how we went from Snow-rescuing Regina to Evil Queen). S1 established that the two had a complicated friendship and in the present day, Regina needed Maleficent to trust her again. I liked the flashback for giving some context to why Maleficent would accept Regina after Regina trapped her beneath the library in dragon form. I think the flashback did a good job opening up the two as important to each other, but the present day storyline didn't deliver either in "Enter the Dragon" or the follow up. It's a shame because Lana/Kristin have nice scene chemistry together.

[Mari]

Way back I said that while I completely conseed that Regina is EVIL and that they made her too evil to realistically redeem that I insist that Rumple is still MORE EVIL than she is.  A lot of that was centered on the magic bean portal thing because I believe that if it had been Henry jumping into the whirlpool to the "land without magic" where she could start over Regina would have jumped in no question while Rump wussed out.  Now I'm looking at the latest episode.  Rump is choosing between possibly/probably dying from a heart attack or Zelena finishing him off with a pillow whichever,  and working with the person who got his son killed.  Yes it was a harsh choice but when you factor in all the people Rump made suffer to reunite with Baelfire and how his oath to his dead son's gravestone to be a better man lasted all of 5 minutes it seems pretty pathetic he made the deal with Zelena.  Now don't get me wrong I fully expect him to find a way to double cross her that doesn't break thier "deal" BUT I just don't see Regina in the same position agreeing to work with the person responsible for Henry's death.  She'd choose death and trust that Emma would take care of her killer if she couldn't find a way to take her killer with her. 

 

I'm looking forward to more snark between Zelena and Regina.  I always found that entertaining.

I absolutely agree that if evil can be quantified, Rumple is more evil than Regina.  He's not only got 100s of years on her at eviling, he's got a whole lot of secondary damage in his ledger, as well;  think about all the villains he's mentored.

 

In the show, however, and one of the big reasons that Regina gets more animosity directed at her (at least by me)?  Rumple is acknowledged as a villain.  No one who watches the show--apart from a few die-hard Rumple/Rumple-Belle fans, maybe--questions that Rumple is a bad, bad guy.  Regina stops killing people on a whim, and rescues the one person in the worlds she occasionally thinks of as a person and who unconditionally supports her, and she's acclaimed as a hero.  The characters applaud her, and A&E give interviews about how sad it is she can't get a fair break.

 

It's not that people think Rumple is less evil, it's that people are rejecting the skewed morality and storytelling that A&E are peddling.

 

In the initial villainy, Rumple also got a more sympathetic motive.  He was horrible, but he was trying to reunite himself with the child he abandoned in a desperate moment.  Regina was caught cheating on her fiancée by a ten year old, who told Regina's mother--so that Regina wouldn't have to marry the wrong guy--and Regina ends worlds because it didn't end the way the 10 year old expected.  That's not sympathetic.

 

Additionally, there's been a difference in the way Carlyle played Rumple and the way Parilla's played Regina.  Rumple's often had a pretty blatant amount of self-loathing about him.  Regina enjoys torturing people, and has crazy, evil, eyes of joy when she's in evil mode.

 

All that adds up to Rumple being a character that while really, horribly evil, is less likely to draw the outspoken ire of a lot of us.  After all, Rumple's a character that knows he's evil, hates himself for it, on a show that recognizes he's evil.  Regina's not.

 

 

 

As for whether or not Regina would've jumped into the portal after Henry, or work with the person who killed him?

 

I think it depends on which season we're dealing with. 

• Season 1 Regina probably wouldn't've jumped in the portal.  Henry was a plaything that she would hurt to make other people hurt.   Working with the person who killed him would depend on what it got her, and the reason he'd died.
• Season 2 Regina--as the season went on--likely would have jumped.  I don't see her working with Henry's killer.
• Season 3 and current Regina?  Absolutely on the jumping, and absolutely not on working with Henry's killer.

[Mathius]

No one who watches the show--apart from a few die-hard Rumple/Rumple-Belle fans, maybe--questions that Rumple is a bad, bad guy.

Sadly, it seems a lot more than a few. Lately they've taken to condemning Zelena for abusing Rumple once more...while saying nothing or even defending all the abuse he's heaped on others very recently such as Hook and August.

Rumple's often had a pretty blatant amount of self-loathing about him. Regina enjoys torturing people, and has crazy, evil, eyes of joy when she's in evil mode.

The self-loathing part is true, but I must point out that this doesn't stop him from also enjoying torturing people and getting crazy evil eyes of joy. Again, I point to what happened with Hook and August. He was clearly having a blast watching them in pain.

After all, Rumple's a character that knows he's evil, hates himself for it, on a show that recognizes he's evil. Regina's not.

One could argue that's another reason he's more evil than Regina, though. As annoying as it is, Regina's delusional, self-victimizing mindset suggests actual mental impairment that screws up her chances at being good. Whereas Rumple knows he's evil, hates himself for it, yet STILL keeps doing evil things! Which is more reprehensible: being perpetually mentally unaware of your own evil, or choosing to take the low road even when you KNOW better?

Season 1 Regina probably wouldn't've jumped in the portal. Henry was a plaything that she would hurt to make other people hurt.

I object. Yes, she used Henry in this capacity, but he was also her most personal, cherished plaything that she was possessive over. She wanted to be lowered into a mine shaft in 1x05 to save him, so I definitely think she'd jump into a portal after him.

Working with his killer, though, I could see her doing if she found someone else to blame for it. After all, Cora killed Daniel, but Regina still ended up working with her while blaming Snow for the incident.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Mathius

[LizaD]

Portal jumping is a bad comparison for Woegina vs Rump. Rump not jumping after Bae wasn't literally about portal jumping. It was about overcoming his biggest issue, being a coward and giving up the power that he thought fixed it. He didn't do it then but he fixed it with the murder suicide Pan thing. He also did it a second time when he gave up the dagger to Zelena to save Bae.

Woegina's equivalent to that was when Emma was leaving town and Henry to her and that still wasn't enough for poor poor Woegina. Her biggest thing was she wouldn't give up her revenge. It took a dead Henry by her poisoned turnover and that still wasn't enough. Remember S2 when she tried to massacre the town? So yeah let's not pretend Woegina is parent of the year either. She chose her wants over Henry time and time again push comes to shove, just like Rump did with Bae. So Woegina not giving up her revenge for Henry is equivalent to Rump not giving up his power for Bae. They eventually "fixed" it.

I find Rump more palatable simply because he's a villain treated like a villain. Woegina is automatic trash because she's a villain treated like a Mary Sue victimized heroine. She's Vampire Diaries Elena x100 in the negative.

There was this one line in VD where someone went the whole world can die but all that matters is saving Elena right? Everyone running around on that show trying to save Elena's life is like everyone running around on Once trying to get Woegina the happy ending she deserves. Her and no one else apparently. But at least on VD, those people were Elena's friends and lovers. Once is so effed up, they have Woegina's victims running around like chickens with their heads cut off to make her happy. AND they still pretend that she is the loneliest most victimized person ever.

I don't see anybody else trying to get Rump his happy ending but Rump himself. Is anybody helping Hook get his? Belle? Will? Snow? Pongo? Everybody else has to fly solo apparently.

[Serena]

I think Regina would have jumped after Henry at any point of the show, because Regina isn't a coward. But then, I think she would have jumped after Daniel's ring or her favourite pantsuit.

[Delphi]

I happen to be a huge Rumple/Eumbelle fan and I'm not disillusioned at all to how bad of a person Rumple is. Not to be a Rumple apologist but honestly I didn't see the glint of delight when Rumple was abusing Hook in 4A, to me it seemed very means to an end, it had to be hook so it be it. I will say that if there was some delight it could easily be compared to Hook having fun blackmailing Rumple earlier in the season, even if Hooks reasoning was less self servicing it seems that these two are always going to have that kind of relationship. A centuries long feud does not just stop because both men have love interests they are always trying to one up each other.

Also despite Rumple's self awareness, I wouldn't say that he's not mentally ill, I think he definitely has a wealth of issues to work through, his cowardice, his addiction to magic and power, his PTSD from Zelena, whatever the hell could have happened to him by sharing his mind with Neal. I also think the dark curse definitely took an unknown toll on his sanity that he wasn't expecting when he decided to become the Dark One, any of his more treacherous acts don't really seem like something that would be in his character pre curse, or even right after it happened. To me it played like it slowly degraded his insanity and slowly infected him.

So there could be an argument that Regina is worse, she's not cursed to evil, she chose her actions while Rumple was driven by the side effects of the Dark Curse.

[YaddaYadda]

Rumple and Hook fucking with each other, fine, the history is there and I'm glad they didn't have these guys just maintaining the status quo.  Hook knowing Rumple better than anyone, that's fine too.  And Hook started it.  I love Hook, but he started it.  Blackmailing him the first time was fine, the second time, he pushed his luck too far.  Did he not expect Rumple to retaliate?  There was a push and shove between the two as far back as 402 with that veiled threat against Emma when she was stuck in the ice cave and it just escalated from there.

 

The thing I didn't take kindly too was when Rumple had Hook tied up against the fence, very reminiscent of how Hook was tied against the mast while Rumple was crushing Milah's heart and then bringing her up, taunting him about how it took him so long to get over Milah and now Emma was basically going to die.  Yes, the level of hatred between the two is pretty much off the charts and that was one of the worst things Rumple did aside from trying to put Emma in that damned hat.  That whole scene was just so very below the belt, like Rumple was just waiting for his moment to remind Hook how he was unable to save Milah and how he can just stay there and relive this with Emma.

[FurryFury]

honestly I didn't see the glint of delight when Rumple was abusing Hook in 4A, to me it seemed very means to an end,

 

I definitely did. At the end of 4A, when Rumple's plan failed because of Emma and/or Elsa (I've already forgotten) he just wanted Hook to suffer, nothing ambiguous about it.

[Mathius]

Not to be a Rumple apologist but honestly I didn't see the glint of delight when Rumple was abusing Hook in 4A

Rewatch when he took his heart. Or even more blatantly, when he was about to crush it before Belle intervened. He flat-out says that this is something he's going to enjoy deeply. And again, look at his freaking face when he's torturing August. The only thing that makes Rumple's sadism SLIGHTLY better than Regina's is that Regina has it for everyone (like random Lost Boys she doesn't know), whereas Rumple only has it for people he forever carries grudges against (Hook for the Milah thing, August for pretending to be Baelfire, etc.)

[Curio]

Not to be a Rumple apologist but honestly I didn't see the glint of delight when Rumple was abusing Hook in 4A, to me it seemed very means to an end, it had to be hook so it be it.

 

As much as I like watching the Hook/Rumple pissing match, I have to disagree that Rumple didn't take delight in abusing Hook in 4A. Rumple flat out said, "But this next part, I'm really going to enjoy" when he was crushing his heart. You can't get much more straightforward than that.

 

Edit: Or what Mathius just said.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

Rumple was also disappointed that Hook didn't beg for his life in 411.  He told him point blank that he was expecting him to fall apart at the prospect of dying.  I guess the only thing that would have made this better for him was if Hook had fallen to his knees and begged to be spared.

 

There isn't enough suffering in Rumple's future.

[Delphi]

You know, I completely try to block out that episode, I forgot that Rumple said that. My bad.

[The Cake is a Pie]

...and I love her even more for it.

[FurryFury]

They really wasted her on such a short arc, though. I would have loved to see a REALLY evil and ruthless villain for at least a half-season. I mean, Pan was evil, but he mostly talked. Cruella at least had a good motivation for only talking.

[LizaD]

I haven't seen the episode but got a bit recap. I think to A&E it would make Cruella the most misunderstood, next to Woegina. People already label her a villain and she can't do anything. They unfairly and unjustly judged her for crimes she's literally not capable of carrying out. Unlike you know those dastardly so-called "heroes" who kill and kidnap indiscriminately.

I think if they had intended for Cruella to come off as truly evil then Emma offing her would not be deemed evil. So by A&E's standards, Pan still reigns as the only evil around town. Because when Rump killed him, that was Rump's redemption and what made Rump a hero in their words.

[FurryFury]

I think if they had intended for Cruella to come off as truly evil then Emma offing her would not be deemed evil.

 

I think their point is killing is wrong no matter what. Or at least if you're a hero. If you're a villain, you can kill as many people as you like, you'll still get redeemed because you have a sob story. It's having a sob story that is the true indicator of evilness. Cruella doesn't have one, so she's actually evil.

[LizaD]

But they didn't think killing Pan was wrong. I'm pretty sure they called it a heroic move on Rump's part. They weren't specifically saying Rump was redeemable cause he had a sob story there. It was specifically the act of killing Pan that redeemed him. There killing Pan was for the greater good. They didn't see killing Mal in the first season was wrong either.

If Cruella was true evil and all killing is wrong no matter what, they wouldn't have needed to thrown in that caveat about her not being a real threat to Henry. Seriously why was that part needed? They added that in just to make sure the sheep sees Emma as going evil for killing a person that wasn't capable of carrying out evil. Just like they tried to sell Cora with her heart wouldn't have been a real threat either or given Snow another option in letting Rump die instead of killing Cora. We know it's complete BS but their little added plot details are clear as glass as to their intentions. It's not as blatant as Cora cause Cruella isn't attached to The Biggest Victim Story Ever Told but that little detail made a big difference.

Pan had no such caveats attached to him. It's also early days yet. Cora didn't get a real sob story till after her death. They can always bring back Cruella in a flashback for one featuring evil Eva.

[FurryFury]

But they didn't think killing Pan was wrong. I'm pretty sure they called it a heroic move on Rump's part.

 

That's because Rumple did it, and he's not a hero. Pretty sure if Snow, David or Emma offed Pan, they'd have to deal with their dark spots for half a season. Rumple also killed Zelena, but while it was shown as evidence of him going dark again, it wasn't the reason for it.

[Mathius]

I mean, Pan was evil, but he mostly talked. Cruella at least had a good motivation for only talking.

Er, Pan did too. It was revealed that he was dying and his powers had gotten much weaker, and excessive use of it would just hasten his demise. It's why he couldn't fly and needed Henry to make the pixie dust work in their first meeting, and why once he got Henry's heart he was able to fly again. Until then, he talked, intimidated, manipulated, and used some of his power for show in order to keep people at a distance and prevent them for discerning the truth.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Mathius

[FurryFury]

Yeah, but it should not have stopped him from using his hands (and his minions). Cruella couldn't kill even with a gun.

 

I actually enjoyed Pan a lot, although the Papa Pan twist left a very bad taste in my mouth and ruined (imho) a character who could have been so much more fun.

Edited April 22, 2015 by FurryFury

[Camera One]

But they didn't think killing Pan was wrong. I'm pretty sure they called it a heroic move on Rump's part.

 

I think Rumple got a get-out-of-shame card there because he also killed himself in the process of killing Pan.  So that cancelled it out.

 

And now he didn't really kill Zelena either, so the writers probably think this means he is still contention for True Love with Belle in the future.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

Now if they could only retract that pesky cold blooded murder of his wife (and the mute maid and the snail guy)...

Edited April 23, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Camera One]

No need to retract.  They fall under the category of "no one cares a village was murdered".

[LizaD]

 

They fall under the category of "no one cares a village was murdered".

It also falls under the category of "it was so long ago that it doesn't count anymore!" Remember that gem? But somehow Snow and Charming's "crimes" move on a different time scale.

 

 

Yeah, but it should not have stopped him from using his hands (and his minions)

 

It didn't. There was the shadow thing going around ripping out shadows for him. Besides it was his "talking" that got Henry to rip out his own heart. Man we were so close to that annoying brat dying. Anyway his m.o. is a lot like Rump's. He rather give people enough rope to hang themselves than actually doing anything himself.

[KingOfHearts]

I don't know why they chose Maleficent, to be honest. The Lily plot could have easily been given to Cruella, Ursula, or any other villainess. Ideally, she would be chosen because of her roots to multiple characters. (Regina, Charming, Emma, Will, Hook) Her return would have helped solidify the overall continuity by bringing back some of the older threads the show had forgotten. Maleficent was trapped in a basement for 28 years, been stolen from, slain, and brought back as a ghost. Surely she's harboring some vengeance toward her captors, thieves and killers. She's one of the few villains who I believe has justifiable anger. Astoundingly, this show decided to drop all that and erect a completely different source of anguish about a whole other character.

 

Why would someone like Maleficent, who had been burned countless times, totally forgive years of cursed imprisonment? They severely under-utilized her.

Edited May 9, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Surely she's harboring some vengeance toward her captors, thieves and killers. She's one of the few villains who I believe has justifiable anger. 

 

Maleficent can only have anger towards one target at a time.  Except when she goes full zen and doesn't have anger towards anyone at all.  Don't you know?  Anger works differently in our world.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Camera One

[Serena]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure they retconned the "Maleficient has a child" story after they saw the Jolie movie.

[Mathius]

This was basically the show's answer to them. So refreshing. I mean, Regina really LOVES blaming everyone but herself for all the bad stuff in her life (Rumple, at least, is honest in this regard, more or less). I'm just so sick of this stuff.

Rumple can admit many of the bad things in his life are his fault, but he does have two severe blind spots when it comes to self-awareness: his belief that he can still get a happy ending if he refuses to give up and CONTINUE to do evil deeds (rather than just stopping doing evil altogether and seeing where that might get him), and his attitude toward romantic rivals like Hook and Will, claiming they "stole his women" (especially egregious with Will, since he ADMITS in "Heart of Gold" that it's his own fault that Belle broke up with him, and yet in "Enter the Dragon" which takes place later chronologically, he accuse Will of "taking something precious to him". So it's your fault Belle left you and yet somehow she isn't allowed to move on with someone else because she still "belongs to you" for some reason? You are sick, Rumple.)

I do agree though that Ward's treatment in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D is much better than how this show has been treating Regina and even Rumple to a lesser extent for three seasons now.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Mathius

[FurryFury]

Oh, Rumple is definitely guilty of hypocrisy, his apology just isn't as obvious, I guess, than Regina's. In a way, his arc annoys me even more - because Regina, at least, really did help the heroes for the last 2 seasons, while he had just tried to basically kill Emma and Hook.

[Shanna Marie]

Rumple cries crocodile tears. He makes a good show of talking about being aware of how much evil he's doing and how he should be a better man, but he really makes zero effort to actually change his ways. His way of getting himself out of whatever situation his evil got him into always involves more evil.

 

I think if they wanted us to really see him as trying, they'd have had to frame it in an entirely different way -- like if he only did all that cleave from the dagger stuff because of PTSD from Zelena controlling him, he should have really given Belle the dagger and only switched it out when he got twitchy and couldn't deal. As it was, no matter what he said in his wedding vows, he'd never for one moment really tried. In fact, I can't think of a stretch on the show in which he was honestly trying to be better rather than talking to Belle about being better, acting nice in public, and secretly scheming. I guess maybe Neverland? That may have been the only time that he wasn't acting on his own agenda for his own benefit.

[Camera One]

Up until Season 4, I would say Rumple was handled much better than Regina, but I no longer think this.  Yes, he's still more "self aware", but his schemes vs. his quieter scenes with Belle or with random characters like Robin in "Heart of Gold" or Emma in "Smash the Mirror" has made the character loosey goosey and very Jekyll and Hyde.  By 4B, I was pretty much rolling my eyes every time he had an emotional scene with anyone.  So for me, Rumple has jumped the shark.  Eddy Kitsis' comment that Rumple getting Belle her heart back was the Rumple that Belle loved shows how delusional he is about how these characters as they are written are coming off.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

I guess maybe Neverland? That may have been the only time that he wasn't acting on his own agenda for his own benefit.

Rumple's redemption arc sailed and sunk in Neverland. When he sacrificed himself to kill Pan, that was as far as he went. Since then, it's been Jekyll and Hide like Camera One said.