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S02.E00: The Miracle of Christmas


Cranberry

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So they needed Rufus to defeat Rittenhouse because??? 

Yeah that never panned out either. Future Wyatt and Future Lucy came back in the upgraded lifeboat and said they were still trying to stop Rittenhouse five years into the future. And they said they needed 2018 Wyatt and Lucy to go get Rufus because they needed him to stop Rittenhouse. Why couldn't 2023 Wyatt and Lucy go get Rufus? Maybe they tried and failed and couldn't go back a second time? But when Rittenhouse is finally taken down, it's by Christopher and her agents in 2018 while the Time Team is stuck in 1950 Korea. Rufus had nothing to do with it whatsoever. WTF.

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The biggest threat from Rittenhouse was them having the time machine. I’m fine with them considering Rittenhouse all but neutralized. They got a good bit of them last season and now they have no time machine anymore, so any further investigation will be an ordinary one. 

Well, that's true. Good point. 

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6 hours ago, iMonrey said:

In hindsight it seems like Rittenhouse was taken down way too easily after all the buildup it was given over two seasons. All Christopher had to do was storm the headquarters and arrest the leader, apparently, with the help of Lucy's father. I would have thought there would be any number of high ranking members ready to step in and fill that leadership. The whole idea of Rittenhouse was always the weakest part of the show so I guess it's not surprising it went out with a whimper instead of a bang. But it still seems like the answer to taking them down would should have been found through time travel rather than in present day.

I'm going to guess that Rittenhouse fell apart after Emma killed its current leader and Nicholas. Besides, there wasn't much left after regular Rittenhouse had been taken down and almost all the sleepers had been woken up. After Jessica was gone, it was just Emma and some henchmen, and Christopher could just get Cahill to show up in order to save Lucy.

As for Rufus, it's possible that older Lucy and Wyatt recently lost Jiya and knew that it was a matter of time before the lifeboat would break down. That doesn't exactly mean they "needed" Rufus, but it would be a reason why they would go back to their own timeline just after Rufus was killed.

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On 12/21/2018 at 12:02 PM, CTrent29 said:

What a piece of crap!!!

I am so over this show.  I wish Jessica had survived.  I wish Jessica had never been Rittenhouse.  Then I would have been spared of this school girl romance crap with Lucy and Wyatt.  This was just so damn cheap. Instead of resolving the issue with Lucy, Jessica and Wyatt with any semblance of maturity, the showrunners had decided to use an easy way and make Jessica a villain to pave the road for "Lyatt".  I'm too disgusted beyond words.  And I’m seriously interested in getting rid of my DVD copies of “Timeless”.  I have never been so disappointed in a show . . . until this one . . . and "Poldark".  Good-bye “Timeless”.  Thanks for disappointing me on so many levels.

Can I join you at your table? 

I knew I was going to be disappointed from the spoilers but this movie reminded me why I quit the show in season 1 and only returned mid season 2 with the arrival of Jessica and Flynn getting out of prison. The main structure of the show never really explained why Rittenhouse made some incredibly stupid decisions that would have hurt them in the future, the Wyatt/Lucy teen romance was stick-figure plotting (and one of the reasons I stopped watching) and they wasted exploring the complex characters (Flynn, Denise, Connor, Lucy-as-Rittenhouse) in favour of the Scooby Gang. 

I got seduced by some fantastic fanfic writers into thinking the show is better than it was. Coming up to this movie, one of the producers  said that Flynn fans would be happy with the wrap-up, uh, that would be a hard no. I don't watch to see the characters I like get killed off and the big hero sacrifice death was not what I want to see. I didn't think Flynn needed to be redeemed more than he was (if you watch the Arrowverse shows, Flynn was Oliver and Wyatt was Barry) and I would have been interested exploring his path to get back again to who he was before Rittenhouse messed up his life.

I feel like Matt Latner himself is an interesting guy but Wyatt always struck me as simplistic and boring even in season 2 and there always seemed to be so much Wyatt.  I thought Jessica had the potential to be much more interesting and worth a redemption arc but they threw her under the bus for the movie. Emma was fun and batshitcrazy but I would have been okay with her dying and Jessica getting character development and exploring the effect of Rittenhouse on her since in the original timeline she was good enough and Wyatt loved her enough that his only thought was to get her back.

In order to get from point A to point B with only a movie to wrap things up, Lucy sometimes felt like she was a board piece being shoved where the plotting needed her to be rather than an organic character.

On 12/21/2018 at 3:45 PM, saber5055 said:

I was sorry Flynn and Lucy didn't work out. I wonder why. They had so much more chemistry than Lucy/Wyatt.

Because they had decided on Wyatt/Lucy and all the interesting storylines that arose from Jessica and the Lucy/Flynn relationship had to be permanently killed without the possibility of revival. Ooh, look Lucy and Wyatt have twins! It must be fate!

As someone at TVLine said, if you have to kill both your alternate love interests (Jessica and Flynn) in order to get your lovers together, maybe you should be writing a better story.  And of course Flynn's affair with Lucy went badly, can't let Lucy actually have a complex relationship if she's intended for Wyatt.

I'll miss what the show could have been, but I won't miss what it ended up being.

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13 hours ago, reggiejax said:

Pretty much. Same thing happened to Emma. She hid out in the old west for about 10 years before Flynn came to recruit her for his team. So she had aged 10 years, even though she hadn't been gone nearly that long from the present. 

Speaking of Emma, was anyone else hoping she survived being shot, and ended up spending the rest of her life in a North Korean prison.

I was! 😏

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With people going "rufus wasn't needed" - He was, in a sense, because "Murder your wife that Rittenhouse saved and Rufus never dies" doesn't sound as good as "Save Rufus" - and it lets them come to their own conclusion on how to save Rufus.

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I thought the old guy who was Lucy's father was head of Rittenhouse. Did he just "walk away" from Rittenhouse because he said wanted his daughter back? I sort of missed that point, and we never saw him again after he made that (stupid) statement. Or maybe I just zoned out during that part. I drifted off a lot during this finale.

I never liked Wyatt, from episode one on. For so many reasons. I wish he had gone back to save Jessica, then lived happily (not really!) ever after with her while Lucy and Flynn went on to "save the world." But no one ever listens to me.

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Besides, there wasn't much left after regular Rittenhouse had been taken down and almost all the sleepers had been woken up. 

I guess we can assume the sleeper agents who weren't killed ended up stranded in the past, LOL. Nobody from Rittenhouse ever came back to retrieve them like Emma kept telling them they would. 

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I thought the old guy who was Lucy's father was head of Rittenhouse.

Lucy's maternal family seemed to be head of Rittenhouse so I assume her father was high ranking by virtue of marriage. But the structure of this organization has always been vague and ill-defined. If they were all following Nicholas Keynes I don't get why they'd just blindly agree to follow Emma after she shot him dead. Even assuming they don't know she killed him, how can one just seize power in this kind of organization? We never saw any kind of manifesto or blueprint or anything Emma could point to and say "Well, I'm doing exactly what we all want according to this document."

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I enjoyed the finale, even if it did have problems (but let's face it, the whole series does on a certain level). Glad that the Timeless gang were given a second chance to end the series. I do hate when cancellations end up with loose ends.

Rittenhouse ends up being an incredibly dull villainous organization, but I don't think the writers were ever quite able to make it live up to the scope of what they'd intended it to be. I'm not sure if they even could, but it really felt like by the finale it had been whittled down to little more than a group of train robbing time bandits. (At least Annie Wersching's stand-in got a lot of extra duty pay; I'm not sure I've ever seen a more obvious attempt to shoot around an actress' pregnancy.)

Flynn's ending was touching, if- as others have noted- a bit undeserved. It probably would have been a better fit if they'd had more time to pay it off properly, but then again, sometimes when shows are given more time to achieve an end goal they end up not using that time effectively.

One thing I'm wondering- were future Lucy and Wyatt our selfsame 2023 Lyatt couple from the finale? Just dressed up to make it look like they'd come from post-apocalyptic future? Or were those two different Lyatt in a future that hadn't been changed? I prefer the former theory, if only because it explains why future Wyatt's beard looked so incredibly fake (because it would have been).

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Going back to my recording of the S1 finale, Lucy convinced her (paternal) grandfather that Rittenhouse could be stopped and his family could be safe if he collected all the dirt on them for a few decades. When Ethan delivered it, 150 Rittenhouse people were arrested, along with Flynn. However, Carol Preston was somehow missing from any of that information and was able to launch the mission with Emma to retrieve Nicholas. This is what I referred to as secret Rittenhouse.

I can only guess that the people who were still free (or under the radar) were used as sleepers in Nicholas' crazy genius plan to subvert history for unknown reasons. Of course, the real reason is that Flynn stopped being the "bad" guy and they needed a reason to do a time travel episode every week. The failure of those sleepers seemed to diminish the effective of Rittenhouse even with a time machine.

Emma was the character who thought that killing the Time Team was the solution to the problem. She was so convinced, that she killed Nicholas and Carol in order to make it happen. Little did she know heroes can't be killed. I'm going to assume that the sleeper program used up the rest of the available Rittenhouse people and since Emma was the only one who could fly the mothership, she was essentially in charge. With no Jessica and a bunch or morons left, it was relatively easy for Christopher to get Ben Cahill's help.

The show teased setting right what once went wrong, and like Quantum Leap, they gave up and let hanging threads just lie there. You would think just ripping the Hindenburg page out of the journal would keep Amy alive, but by that point, Lucy and Wyatt had kids who would be different (or gone) if any major events changed by giving Flynn an altered book. 

And yet, I keep thinking about something. Would Garcia be a better girl's name than Flynn?

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12 hours ago, saber5055 said:

I thought the old guy who was Lucy's father was head of Rittenhouse. Did he just "walk away" from Rittenhouse because he said wanted his daughter back? I sort of missed that point, and we never saw him again after he made that (stupid) statement. Or maybe I just zoned out during that part. I drifted off a lot during this finale.

I never liked Wyatt, from episode one on. For so many reasons. I wish he had gone back to save Jessica, then lived happily (not really!) ever after with her while Lucy and Flynn went on to "save the world." But no one ever listens to me.

I think Lucy's dad was in prison?

 

7 hours ago, ketose said:

And yet, I keep thinking about something. Would Garcia be a better girl's name than Flynn?

Hmm, that is an interesting question, but I think Flynn fits in more with the current popular names - the letter y is very popular in names right now

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17 hours ago, Terrafamilia said:

I was just having fun laughing at the bars and huge nuggets of Hollywood lite!gold Emma and Jessica were carrying around. Those things wouldn't even have made good paperweights.

When the one guy revealed all the shiny "gold" in the bucket he was carrying, I shouted, "That's pyrite, baby!" Real gold nuggets aren't all spotless and glittery, and weigh more than a basket of eggs. But then like you said, it's Hollywood gold!

17 hours ago, ketose said:

And yet, I keep thinking about something. Would Garcia be a better girl's name than Flynn?

"Garcia" makes me think of cigars since it's a big name in that industry. Not a good girl's name IMO. I don't have a problem with Flynn, except because of the characters on this show, I assumed Flynn should be a boy. But it's a good girl's name too. I know men and women named Gail. Actually, more men than women.

I'm thinking now that Flynn was shot in his beat-down with Jessica which is why he decided to stay and see his family again so sent the Eyeball back to the future. Although: Could Flynn have sent the Eyeball back a day or two so he could kill Jessica all proper like without him being hurt? That raises a question: If a person is shot in 2014 and travels back to 2013 in the time machine, is he still shot since he's the one time traveling? I guess it depends on which time traveler's universe one is in.

Not that it matters since TPTB wanted Flynn gone so Lucy would hook up with Wyatt. Ugh. But to each his/her own I guess!

garciaCigar.png

Edited by saber5055
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1 hour ago, saber5055 said:

I'm thinking now that Flynn was shot in his beat-down with Jessica which is why he decided to stay and see his family again so sent the Eyeball back to the future. Although: Could Flynn have sent the Eyeball back a day or two so he could kill Jessica all proper like without him being hurt? That raises a question: If a person is shot in 2014 and travels back to 2013 in the time machine, is he still shot since he's the one time traveling? I guess it depends on which time traveler's universe one is in.

Not that it matters since TPTB wanted Flynn gone so Lucy would hook up with Wyatt. Ugh. But to each his/her own I guess!

Flynn was already dying from the effects of crossing his own timeline, not because he had been fatally wounded by Jessica during their fight. In fact, I don't think she ever got hold of the gun; she merely knocked it out of Flynn's hand and out of his reach.  And incidentally, he didn't send the Lifeboat to 2018. He sent it back to 1848 so it would be there for Wyatt, Lucy, and Rufus.  He never intended to return to 1848 from what he knew was going to be a one-way trip to 2012 to re-set history by killing Jessica.

And Flynn's time was short because Goran had a scheduling conflict that limited his availability.  I think he himself said that this was the ending he wanted for Flynn, which is why he cried the first time he read the script.

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Just now, possibilities said:

He got to see his family again, which is what he always wanted most, I guess.

That indeed was all he really wanted.  He himself said that if he had ever pulled off the miracle of actually bringing them back, he'd have walked away because he no longer considered himself worthy of them because of what he'd had to do to get them back.  Just seeing them one last time before he died was enough for him, since he'd already accepted that he'd never be able to bring them back. 

He also knew that he and Lucy were never meant to be.  She was always going to be in love with Wyatt no matter what, so Flynn would never truly live in her heart that way. Sacrificing himself to end Jessica's threat (which Wyatt himself had decided to do) was his way of giving Wyatt and Lucy his blessing.  And I think he'd be especially honored to know that they named one of their daughters after him.

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6 hours ago, ketose said:

So, I guess that means in the badass timeline Wyatt and Lucy were on the outs because she had a fling with Flynn, aside from the Jessica stuff with Wyatt.

That was part of it, for sure.  The showrunners made it clear that that version of Future Lyatt was intended to be a cautionary tale for 2018 Lyatt.  Future Lyatt was basically there just long enough to tell them "Don't just figure out how to get Rufus back.  Figure out how to keep yourselves from turning into US!"

Edited by legaleagle53
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54 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

I was thinking "Graciela" myself. Or just "Grace."

I really don't see what's so earth-shattering about "Flynn" for a girl. It actually rhymes with "Lynn," so to me, it doesn't sound inappropriate at all.  Besides, as others have pointed out, it's not the first time a traditionally masculine or masculine-sounding name has been given to a girl.  "Ashley" used to be an exclusive boy's name up until a few decades ago, and I've heard of a few female "Michaels" as well.   Even my own name, "Lee," is gender-neutral.  There are just as many female Lees out there as there are male ones.

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On 12/23/2018 at 7:55 PM, ketose said:

I'm going to guess that Rittenhouse fell apart after Emma killed its current leader and Nicholas. Besides, there wasn't much left after regular Rittenhouse had been taken down and almost all the sleepers had been woken up. After Jessica was gone, it was just Emma and some henchmen, and Christopher could just get Cahill to show up in order to save Lucy.

As for Rufus, it's possible that older Lucy and Wyatt recently lost Jiya and knew that it was a matter of time before the lifeboat would break down. That doesn't exactly mean they "needed" Rufus, but it would be a reason why they would go back to their own timeline just after Rufus was killed.

I had asked about this and someone on the Facebook board pointed out, that Lucy's grandfather helped them get a lot of the key players at the end of the first season and then taking down Nicholas and Carol and Emma, there wasn't much people left. 

On 12/24/2018 at 7:49 PM, ketose said:

Going back to my recording of the S1 finale, Lucy convinced her (paternal) grandfather that Rittenhouse could be stopped and his family could be safe if he collected all the dirt on them for a few decades. When Ethan delivered it, 150 Rittenhouse people were arrested, along with Flynn. However, Carol Preston was somehow missing from any of that information and was able to launch the mission with Emma to retrieve Nicholas. This is what I referred to as secret Rittenhouse.

I can only guess that the people who were still free (or under the radar) were used as sleepers in Nicholas' crazy genius plan to subvert history for unknown reasons. Of course, the real reason is that Flynn stopped being the "bad" guy and they needed a reason to do a time travel episode every week. The failure of those sleepers seemed to diminish the effective of Rittenhouse even with a time machine.

Emma was the character who thought that killing the Time Team was the solution to the problem. She was so convinced, that she killed Nicholas and Carol in order to make it happen. Little did she know heroes can't be killed. I'm going to assume that the sleeper program used up the rest of the available Rittenhouse people and since Emma was the only one who could fly the mothership, she was essentially in charge. With no Jessica and a bunch or morons left, it was relatively easy for Christopher to get Ben Cahill's help.

The show teased setting right what once went wrong, and like Quantum Leap, they gave up and let hanging threads just lie there. You would think just ripping the Hindenburg page out of the journal would keep Amy alive, but by that point, Lucy and Wyatt had kids who would be different (or gone) if any major events changed by giving Flynn an altered book. 

And yet, I keep thinking about something. Would Garcia be a better girl's name than Flynn?

I saw that you just posted here what I said to you, so you knew about it anyhow. I had forgotten but now it makes sense. Thank you.

That makes sense about Emma being in charge then because of her expertise in flying the mothership.

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16 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

 Even my own name, "Lee," is gender-neutral. 

Your screen name should be LeegalEagle.

Besides knowing Gails of both sexes, I also know several Lynns on both sides of the gender fence. And everyone should know about SNL's gender-bending "Pat." I actually think Flynn is a pretty good name either way.

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One thing I'm wondering- were future Lucy and Wyatt our selfsame 2023 Lyatt couple from the finale? 

I think not, because the Lifeboat was retired and covered up with a tarp until they went back for that "final" trip in 2023 to give Flynn the diary, meaning they never had to go back and give the diary to 2018 Lucy and Wyatt. 

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On 25.12.2018 at 3:37 AM, Cthulhudrew said:

One thing I'm wondering- were future Lucy and Wyatt our selfsame 2023 Lyatt couple from the finale?

The Future!Lucy-and-Wyatt were from the dystopian future where Rufus died, Jiya made the changes in the Lifeboat and Lucy hooked up with Flynn (because she never forgave Wyatt, even though according to Flynn she always loved him). Our!Lucy-and-Wyatt are the result of Rufus being alive.

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I just loved this finale for the show.  I was glad it tied up the loose ends and it was as believable to me as a time travel show can be :-)

It was an interesting twist to leave Amy in the original timeline and not in the present.   I was kinda glad to see that but still a little sad that Lucy lost her sister all together for really no good reason that we were ever told...

Loved Rufus saying he was 'shipping Lyatt.

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2 hours ago, CooperTV said:

The Future!Lucy-and-Wyatt were from the dystopian future where Rufus died, Jiya made the changes in the Lifeboat and Lucy hooked up with Flynn (because she never forgave Wyatt, even though according to Flynn she always loved him). Our!Lucy-and-Wyatt are the result of Rufus being alive.

Wait. So we had to choose between dead Rufus or no Lucy-Flynn pairing? That's a bummer. 

 

On December 24, 2018 at 6:49 PM, ketose said:

Emma was the character who thought that killing the Time Team was the solution to the problem. She was so convinced, that she killed Nicholas and Carol in order to make it happen. Little did she know heroes can't be killed. I'm going to assume that the sleeper program used up the rest of the available Rittenhouse people and since Emma was the only one who could fly the mothership, she was essentially in charge

@ketose, you explain this so well in just a couple of sentences. Maybe if the show writers had a character uttering these words, the show could've been saved.

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4 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

@ketose, you explain this so well in just a couple of sentences. Maybe if the show writers had a character uttering these words, the show could've been saved.

I would have made them watch the show Continuum.

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5 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Wait. So we had to choose between dead Rufus or no Lucy-Flynn pairing? That's a bummer. 

I'm fine with it, actually. I already watched The Vampire Diaries, I don't need another "I killed, raped and threatened everyone you've ever loved so we're obviously True Love" routine.

But I'm pretty sure if the show is somehow renewed we'd have an another go at this triangle because the writers don't actually have anything else in their arsenal (like interesting plotting or believable character interactions, for example).

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On 12/26/2018 at 10:57 PM, CooperTV said:

But I'm pretty sure if the show is somehow renewed we'd have an another go at this triangle because the writers don't actually have anything else in their arsenal (like interesting plotting or believable character interactions, for example).

LOL! Yeah, Lucy can get mad at Wyatt and take the Eyeball back to pre-dead Flynn and bring him home. There is no end to this story, if the show gets renewed somehow. Plus, if Lucy's sister disappeared, so can the twins I guess. Less baggage for renegade Wyatt and Fly-ucy.

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Or Amy can show up in a duplicate lifeboat, saying "It's about your kids, Lucy!"

 

I was thinking about something. When Emma started working for Rittenhouse, Carol Preston wasn't involved because she was dying. When she went double agent, Emma suddenly found herself working for a Rittenhouse with new management and fewer resources. That was probably when she realized that she could just take over.

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Most of what I thought, positive and negative, has already been raised, so I'll just throw one last headache into the mix.

The Flynn 'created' by the final scene of this episode was a different person from the Flynn we had throughout the show's run. That can't not have changed things.

Original-Flynn did unspeakably horrible things with the full awareness that they were too bad to forgive. That was why his plan was to save his family and then walk away from them - he was knowingly becoming a monster, and considered bringing them back to life to be worth that price.

Would post-Christmas-Flynn do the same things in the name of being a hero and saving history? I'm inclined to think he wouldn't; if he did, frankly it's the opposite of redemption for me.

"If I kill these people/cause these disasters/etc, my wife and daughter might live" is a motivation I can understand, if not condone.

"I'm killing these people/causing these disasters/etc so that history happens the way it's supposed to" is not.

Isn't that the entire reason Lucy et al switched from 'the past must remain unchanged' to 'screw it, let's save everybody we run across'?

Edited by Emma9
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5 hours ago, Emma9 said:

Most of what I thought, positive and negative, has already been raised, so I'll just throw one last headache into the mix.

The Flynn 'created' by the final scene of this episode was a different person from the Flynn we had throughout the show's run. That can't not have changed things.

Original-Flynn did unspeakably horrible things with the full awareness that they were too bad to forgive. That was why his plan was to save his family and then walk away from them - he was knowingly becoming a monster, and considered bringing them back to life to be worth that price.

Would post-Christmas-Flynn do the same things in the name of being a hero and saving history? I'm inclined to think he wouldn't; if he did, frankly it's the opposite of redemption for me.

"If I kill these people/cause these disasters/etc, my wife and daughter might live" is a motivation I can understand, if not condone.

"I'm killing these people/causing these disasters/etc so that history happens the way it's supposed to" is not.

Isn't that the entire reason Lucy et al switched from 'the past must remain unchanged' to 'screw it, let's save everybody we run across'?

I think that depends on what Lucy told Flynn the "first" time. Flynn says she told him that there was a way to stop them, but he would need Lucy's help. He also said she looked about 5 years older, which means she probably could have gone in 2021 or 2022.

 

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5 hours ago, Emma9 said:

Would post-Christmas-Flynn do the same things in the name of being a hero and saving history? I'm inclined to think he wouldn't; if he did, frankly it's the opposite of redemption for me.

"If I kill these people/cause these disasters/etc, my wife and daughter might live" is a motivation I can understand, if not condone.

"I'm killing these people/causing these disasters/etc so that history happens the way it's supposed to" is not.

I might relate more to the second reason for doing bad things depending upon what is meant by "history happens the way it's supposed to," but I'm not sure if I can ever agree with the broader philosophy of "the ends justify the means."
However, I seem to have forgotten what (if any) dastardly deeds Flynn did other than murder. I mean, did he torture or torment anyone? 
I might forgive him murdering people because eventually everyone dies, and a quick death might be more merciful than, for instance, lingering for years while wanting to die. 

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I chose just to enjoy seeing all the characters again and suspending belief over timelines, etc.  The montage of things they did at different historical events was moving.  To me it  was just an enjoyable show with an engaging cast that I'll miss.

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Just watched it and read through the preceding comments.  I thought it was okay.  I was taken out of it by the number of timey wimey handwavey bits.

Most of the objections I had have already been mentioned, but I'll echo a few of them.  It was odd that Agent Christopher took out Rittenhouse single-handedly almost off-screen.  And Connor Mason was once again given too little to do.  The whole second half of the movie seemed unnecessary.  The flashforward to 2023 was super saccharin, but was tempered a bit by the return to Flynn in 2012.  But then the timeline was so busted it's hard to see if that was actually necessary.  It's a wonder happy Lucy didn't run into post-apocalyptic Lucy at the bar trying to do the same thing.

It's small, but by far my favorite moment was Agent Christopher giving out all the scarfs she stress knitted as presents.

The finale was a lot like the rest of Timeless - just not quite there.  It won't make it to my canceled shows rewatch list.

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