S01.E04: Shrapnel

[atlantaloves]

To Mary Pat: I think Jean Smart was beginning to wish she was in Fargo instead of this hot mess of a mini series. God, this is so horrible. Of course I will hate watch it to the bitter end.

[DrivingSideways]

Watching Debra lie to her daughter about the GPS tracker and deny that she had taken John back was pathetic.  Just like her own mother - taking the side of an evil man over her daughter.  I really hope Terra and Ronnie were able to break the chain of dysfunction in this family.

I know Ronnie is our hero, and maybe in a carefree Legally Blonde type movie, I would be cheering for her, but her attitude really sucks.  I couldn't believe the balls on her to read that cop the riot act.  Has she ever worked, much less paid taxes?  I know it's frustrating when your mother's psychological shortcomings have put her in the crosshairs of a psychotic man, but that classist, vocal-fry infused lecture she delivered was intensely distasteful.

[walnutqueen]

53 minutes ago, DrivingSideways said:

I know Ronnie is our hero, and maybe in a carefree Legally Blonde type movie, I would be cheering for her, but her attitude really sucks.  I couldn't believe the balls on her to read that cop the riot act.  Has she ever worked, much less paid taxes?  I know it's frustrating when your mother's psychological shortcomings have put her in the crosshairs of a psychotic man, but that classist, vocal-fry infused lecture she delivered was intensely distasteful.

I does not take a "hero"  or "balls" to ask a cop to do his fucking job. Someone's tax dollars are paying for his donuts.

[Drumpf1737]

Its really hard to muster any empathy for this woman. 

[mythoughtis]

7 hours ago, atlantaloves said:

To Mary Pat: I think Jean Smart was beginning to wish she was in Fargo instead of this hot mess of a mini series. God, this is so horrible. Of course I will hate watch it to the bitter end.

I was pretty sure going in that it would be much more of a drama than a documentary.   I’m sure a lot of the events happened. I’m also sure some didn't. Hence the disclaimer at the end of each episode.   I’m having a lot of trouble understanding how this woman managed to run a business and have the amount of money she did. I don’t know how she managed to find her office daily as clueless as she seems to be. 

Edited December 19, 2018 by mythoughtis

[TattleTeeny]

Quote

 

 I’m also sure some didn't. 

 

I don't know--so far I am surprised by nothing in it because I listened to the podcast.

[mythoughtis]

13 minutes ago, TattleTeeny said:

I don't know--so far I am surprised by nothing in it because I listened to the podcast.

It’s been admitted that the conversation between Tania and the doctor in which she found out about the affair didn’t happen.  That’s one. There’s more or they wouldn’t have that disclaimer every single episode. 

[TattleTeeny]

Well, whatever, OK--I'm just referring to the badness of John. It kind of goes without saying that a show made for TV can't do everything exactly as it occurred, for various reasons.

[Lady of nod]

On 12/17/2018 at 10:30 AM, Amy Beth said:

This episode showed the completely screwed up dynamics in Debra’s family of origin. 

But Debra did not and still does not forgive Bobby like her mother. She was willing to divorce several husbands, so it’s not as if she 100% internalized “til death do us part”.

So what about John is different, that she’s not willing to cut ties?

After his tearful “confession”, instead of agreeing to take him back, she could have offered to pay for any and all rehab he needed first. THAT would make some sense.

But this? Still not getting it.

I think she's desperate for a man at this point. And sorry but I'm over her and her mother. That simpering whispery voice and dumbfounded look are getting on my last nerve. It would be interesting to know about her previous FOUR marriages.

i know they were filling in background here but I found it tiresome and cannot believe any mother/grandmother would behave the way she did after her daughter's murder. Is she on some kind of medication? 

I'm in it for the long run though. The podcast was very good so I'll stick it out. I'd like to see the documentary. Does anyone know if it' streaming?

[CaliCheeseSucks]

12 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I think what's to uncover isn't anything salacious, I think it's about ego.  Debra feels that John is a good looking man and this good looking man wants her, which makes Debra feel good about herself. 

When Debra found out John was a lying scumbag/con man, she realized he was playing her and I think she knows that, but she can't bring herself to accept the fact that if John is conning her, he's NOT into her AT ALL.  And I think that's more painful that John being a con man, that he isn't attracted to her especially when Debra thinks she's all that.  

That is an excellent point, @Neurochick!

2 hours ago, Lady of nod said:

I'm in it for the long run though. The podcast was very good so I'll stick it out. I'd like to see the documentary. Does anyone know if it' streaming?

I'll check the 'Fact Vs. Fiction' thread and see if the Dateline hour is already linked. If not, I'll put it over there. 

[bkathi]

I think a lot of of the reason that Debra took John back is that she was afraid of what he would do.  Kind of a keep your enemies closer kind of thing. Not saying that was the smart thing to do, 

[kicksave]

For me it's pretty simple figuring out the relationship dynamic between Debra and John...she's a needy lonely woman looking for a man to fulfill her and complete her. She doesn't view herself as fully formed human being unless she is with a man. Call it conditioning from years of having a mother who has issues herself or just her own psychological make up, she is the kind of middle aged woman who believes Mister Right is out there somewhere. The Internet plays a huge part in this story...she looked to the Internet dating sites for a relationship but neglected to use the Internet to research John before continuing with the relationship. The only thing missing in this story is a spot on Dr. Phil to ask for help in finding out more about him! She infuriates me with her denial of John's evil intentions and then her forgiveness of them! Ugh...her desperation to have a man, even a man who is so flawed and dangerous, is pathetic. It's hard to believe that a woman so weak and needy could be such a successful businesswoman...go figure. She's so easily manipulated by John it's almost too easy for him. 

[ninjago]

On 12/18/2018 at 9:05 PM, walnutqueen said:

I does not take a "hero"  or "balls" to ask a cop to do his fucking job. Someone's tax dollars are paying for his donuts.

I loved Ronnie in this scene.  If the cop talked that way to a rich white lady imagine the condescending prick he was to women who weren't so well-heeled.  Anything that inhibits women from getting help in domestic situations needs to be nipped in the bud.

I finally saw this episode, and of course her mother has a lot of blood on her hands form Debra's psychological make-up, but she did 100% support Debra leaving John and recognized the danger Debra was in.  I wonder if part of why Debra stayed was because she'd not been able to fully forgive her BIL the way her mother did and forgiving John was her way of relieving the guilt for that.

[Barb23]

On 12/18/2018 at 11:53 AM, itsadryheat said:

And I made a huge mistake trying to watch his whiny hospital scene. I fast forwarded during the pathetic crying jag. 

The hospital scene was one of my favorite parts.  I couldn't wait to hear how he would explain his lies away with more lies.  I'm sure he was well prepared & it was probably somewhat hard trying to think of a different excuse or reason for each of them &  how he kept everything straight. 

[chocolatine]

I'm usually not into true crime stories of any kind, but all my other shows are on hiatus, and I really like Connie Britton, so I gave this a go. It's not a great show by any stretch, but watchable enough.

I have a hard time feeling sympathy for Debra - there were glaring red flags from the very first date - but my heart breaks for Toby. Not only was his father murdering his mother a huge trauma, but the way his grandmother handled it must have been an absolute mind-f*ck. I noticed in earlier episodes that Toby seems more attached to Debra than an adult nephew would normally be to his aunt, but probably it was because Debra was the only adult in his life who had a somewhat normal reaction to the murder. And now he has to watch Debra go back to a man who's arguably an even bigger monster than his father.

I can't help it, but I love bitchy Ronnie. She's spoiled, but it's clear that her main concern is her mother's safety and wellbeing, not her money. I daresay it's more concern than Debra deserves. My stomach turned when she started rationalizing to herself that John wasn't so bad after all.

Edited December 22, 2018 by chocolatine

[Starlight925]

8 hours ago, chocolatine said:

I'm usually not into true crime stories of any kind, but all my other shows are on hiatus, and I really like Connie Britton, so I gave this a go. It's not a great show by any stretch, but watchable enough.

I have a hard time feeling sympathy for Debra - there were glaring red flags from the very first date - but my heart breaks for Toby. Not only was his father murdering his mother a huge trauma, but the way his grandmother handled it must have been an absolute mind-f*ck. I noticed in earlier episodes that Toby seems more attached to Debra than an adult nephew would normally be to his aunt, but probably it was because Debra was the only adult in his life who had a somewhat normal reaction to the murder. And now he has to watch Debra go back to a man who's arguably an even bigger monster than his father.

I can't help it, but I love bitchy Ronnie. She's spoiled, but it's clear that her main concern is her mother's safety and wellbeing, not her money. I daresay it's more concern than Debra deserves. My stomach turned when she started rationalizing to herself that John wasn't so bad after all.

Me too!  I'm not usually into true crime stories, and I don't watch Dateline or 20/20, because I always feel the stories are too dragged out.

But on a whim, I listened to the first episode of the podcast, and I finished it on a drive home for Thanksgiving.  I was riveted.

I never found "Ronnie" bad either; in fact, I felt she was the only voice of reason.  When I read podcast reviews, a lot of people complained about her (real-life) vocal fry, as she was interviewed quite a bit on the podcast (Jacqueline IRL).  I found her to be brave and honest.

But for "Toby" (Shad IRL), my heart just broke for this guy.  The way his grandmother stood up for his father, who literally walked up behind his mother and shot her (yes, that scene was exactly how it happened), while she was paying bills, was so chilling and unbelievable.  So yes, he formed more of a bond with Debra than a normal aunt-nephew relationship, but in his defense, he effectively lost both parents in one minute.

Watching John put on the "sweet charm" in the hospital, saying what a poor victim he was, that there must be "so many John Meehans" that it's all a mistake, and watching Debra nod in empathy was just so hard to watch.

She must have been, at that time, an incredibly lonely woman.  All the money and success in the world, all your health, your healthy grown kids, yet the "love" of one man causes her to view that sh*tshow through a kaleidoscope.

[lezlers]

On ‎12‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 1:55 PM, atlantaloves said:

To Mary Pat: I think Jean Smart was beginning to wish she was in Fargo instead of this hot mess of a mini series. God, this is so horrible. Of course I will hate watch it to the bitter end.

What about it do you hate?  It's gotten fabulous reviews and everyone here loves it. 

[lezlers]

On ‎12‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 8:06 PM, mythoughtis said:

I was pretty sure going in that it would be much more of a drama than a documentary.   I’m sure a lot of the events happened. I’m also sure some didn't. Hence the disclaimer at the end of each episode.   I’m having a lot of trouble understanding how this woman managed to run a business and have the amount of money she did. I don’t know how she managed to find her office daily as clueless as she seems to be. 

It's actually pretty impressive how accurately they're telling the story.   I've only noticed one thing they showed that wasn't explicitly discussed in the real story.

On ‎12‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 8:58 PM, mythoughtis said:

It’s been admitted that the conversation between Tania and the doctor in which she found out about the affair didn’t happen.  That’s one. There’s more or they wouldn’t have that disclaimer every single episode. 

Those of us who listened to the podcast and/or read the LA Times article are saying that the conversation with Tonia is literally the only thing they've shown that didn't happen.  

[mythoughtis]

6 hours ago, lezlers said:

It's actually pretty impressive how accurately they're telling the story.   I've only noticed one thing they showed that wasn't explicitly discussed in the real story.

Those of us who listened to the podcast and/or read the LA Times article are saying that the conversation with Tonia is literally the only thing they've shown that didn't happen.  

It’s okay if you don’t see it my way.  Everyone can decide for themselves. They’ve changed the name of 1 child, ignored two others entirely, changed the name of a nephew.  Don’t you wonder why they wanted that done?    They admitted that the friend of Johns  who supposedly talked to Tonia afterwards in that restaurant is a composite of several people. There’s no way to know if each conversation between two characters is accurate or just a summary of multiple conversations, and that’s true for the podcast and that article too. Do you really think that Debra has accurately portrayed her own actions in this mess instead of glossing over some of her own missteps? 

Edited December 22, 2018 by mythoughtis

[lezlers]

2 hours ago, mythoughtis said:

It’s okay if you don’t see it my way.  Everyone can decide for themselves. They’ve changed the name of 1 child, ignored two others entirely, changed the name of a nephew.  Don’t you wonder why they wanted that done?    They admitted that the friend of Johns  who supposedly talked to Tonia afterwards in that restaurant is a composite of several people. There’s no way to know if each conversation between two characters is accurate or just a summary of multiple conversations, and that’s true for the podcast and that article too. Do you really think that Debra has accurately portrayed her own actions in this mess instead of glossing over some of her own missteps? 

Well, I mean if anything was 100% accurate as to events that happened we'd be watching surveillance video, not a podcast, dramatized show or even documentary.  I was speaking more of events, not exact words, names, ect.   I haven't seen anything, save for Tonia's chance meeting with John's mistress, that was made up for the show.  That was my point.  

As an aside, if my name was Shad, I'd want it changed too.  Shad is a ridiculous name.  Sorry, I had to say it.  I actually rewound and re-listened to that part in the podcast because I thought I misheard it.  :D

[Starlight925]

4 hours ago, lezlers said:

Well, I mean if anything was 100% accurate as to events that happened we'd be watching surveillance video, not a podcast, dramatized show or even documentary.  I was speaking more of events, not exact words, names, ect.   I haven't seen anything, save for Tonia's chance meeting with John's mistress, that was made up for the show.  That was my point.  

As an aside, if my name was Shad, I'd want it changed too.  Shad is a ridiculous name.  Sorry, I had to say it.  I actually rewound and re-listened to that part in the podcast because I thought I misheard it.  :D

Completely agree with you on all points!  The show is so close to the podcast/real story, it's eerie.  The things that have been changed, i.e. Tonia meeting the doctor who was having the affair, are for t.v. show drama's sake.  He really was having an affair/multiple affairs, but it's not clear how she first found out.  I think that's actually irrelevant; the facts are still there.

Connie Britton spent time with Debra Newell to get the mannerisms down, and I think she's doing great.

I'm actually surprised at how much I like this show, as I was afraid it would disappoint, being that the podcast was so great.  The book is always better than the movie, but not in this case.

My entire family is watching it now, and everyone feels the same way.  Some have heard the podcast, others have not, so we are not spoiling it, but they are on the edge of their seats.

And as for Shad's name, lol.....sounds like a past tense of sh*t, sorry to say.  Unfortunate name.

[Ohwell]

Shad should have legally changed his name to Chad because it would be pretty easy for someone to assume that "Shad" was just a typo.

[Mom2twoNonna2-3]

22 hours ago, lezlers said:

Well, I mean if anything was 100% accurate as to events that happened we'd be watching surveillance video, not a podcast, dramatized show or even documentary.  I was speaking more of events, not exact words, names, ect.   I haven't seen anything, save for Tonia's chance meeting with John's mistress, that was made up for the show.  That was my point.  

As an aside, if my name was Shad, I'd want it changed too.  Shad is a ridiculous name.  Sorry, I had to say it.  I actually rewound and re-listened to that part in the podcast because I thought I misheard it.  :D

On behalf of my best friend and her family, that's a little harsh. Her husband is Shad and he's a perfectly wonderful man. There are many names out there that I hate. But, I'd personally never say it. I finally listened to the podcast and it's quite an eye opener. One thing Tonia said is that the heart and brain are different organs. That puts a lot into perspective about smart woman making poor choices in partners. Same with men choosing poor partners in women. Basically, we can all make poor choices in our partners and often let our eyes and hearts overrule our brains.

[Eliot]

On 12/22/2018 at 4:25 PM, mythoughtis said:

Do you really think that Debra has accurately portrayed her own actions in this mess instead of glossing over some of her own missteps? 

Good lord. I really can’t see how much stupider she could have been! What’s been interesting to me about the show and the podcast is how forthcoming she has been in sharing her story. If it were me, I’d feel so humiliated I wouldn’t want anyone to know. 

The character seems to have a remarkable lack of embarrassment about the whole thing.

[Ohwell]

Has anyone who watched the real Debra (I haven't) gotten a sense that she took any responsibility for the mess with John, or does she just want to play victim?

[lezlers]

23 hours ago, Mom2twoNonna2one said:

On behalf of my best friend and her family, that's a little harsh. Her husband is Shad and he's a perfectly wonderful man. There are many names out there that I hate. But, I'd personally never say it. I finally listened to the podcast and it's quite an eye opener. One thing Tonia said is that the heart and brain are different organs. That puts a lot into perspective about smart woman making poor choices in partners. Same with men choosing poor partners in women. Basically, we can all make poor choices in our partners and often let our eyes and hearts overrule our brains.

I didn't say having a stupid name makes you a bad person.  It just means your parents gave you a stupid name.  Certainly not the kid's fault. 

[lezlers]

3 hours ago, Ohwell said:

Has anyone who watched the real Debra (I haven't) gotten a sense that she took any responsibility for the mess with John, or does she just want to play victim?

One of the reasons I loathe her so much is her complete and utter refusal to accept any responsibility for her part in the whole thing.   Even when she was being interviewed about the early days, she still had a giggle and sounded starry eyed when describing John.  It was sick.   I honestly don't think she feels the slightest bit guilty about any of it.

[Ohwell]

5 minutes ago, lezlers said:

One of the reasons I loathe her so much is her complete and utter refusal to accept any responsibility for her part in the whole thing.   Even when she was being interviewed about the early days, she still had a giggle and sounded starry eyed when describing John.  It was sick.   I honestly don't think she feels the slightest bit guilty about any of it.

Thanks for the information.   

[cathaireverywhere]

Of all the things on this show, I can't believe I'm responding to the controversy over the name Shad :)

While some might not be the biggest fans of the name, it was given to him by his mom, HIS MOM WHO WAS MURDERED IN COLD BLOOD BY HIS FATHER.  That right there is a good reason to keep the name.

It's also a fish.  Thanks Wikipedia!

This show has been my Xmas binge, and I am not looking foward to having to wait for the last two episodes!

[kicksave]

Debra is pathetic...so needy of a man that she refuses to see how badly she is being treated and used. Ugh...her kids aren't great but at least they are looking out for her. She's such a ditz it's hard to believe she had a thriving business and was able to live as well as she did. 

[IDreamofJoaquin]

Ugh, Debra. Poor choices!  I wonder if he had cyanide and was putting it in her smoothies?  I haven't listened to the podcast so I guess I'll find out after the next few episodes. I want to go to the Fact Vs Fiction but not yet!

Her mom is such an idiot. 

[AZChristian]

On 12/26/2018 at 1:06 PM, kicksave said:

Debra is pathetic...so needy of a man that she refuses to see how badly she is being treated and used. Ugh...her kids aren't great but at least they are looking out for her. She's such a ditz it's hard to believe she had a thriving business and was able to live as well as she did. 

She was divorced four times . . . isn't California (in)famous for generous alimony payouts?  They even alluded to pre-nups (Veronica assuming Debra had one).  Deb's money may have come from being married to well-to-do men who were as stupid as she still is.

[biakbiak]

On 1/18/2019 at 9:01 AM, AZChristian said:

She was divorced four times . . . isn't California (in)famous for generous alimony payouts?  They even alluded to pre-nups (Veronica assuming Debra had one).  Deb's money may have come from being married to well-to-do men who were as stupid as she still is.

Veronica assumed she had a prenup because of her mother’s money not John. Debra’s business is very successful and from the sound of it she has dated losers and deadbeats before John.

More importantly alimony ends upon remarriage so given how often she has married it seems extremely unlikely she was getting or at least needed alimony payments. 

Edited January 20, 2019 by biakbiak

[Ohwell]

The alimony might have ended upon her remarriages, but who knows how much money Debra got from the exes as part of the divorce settlements?  Conveniently, we know nothing about them.

[biakbiak]

4 hours ago, Ohwell said:

The alimony might have ended upon her remarriages, but who knows how much money Debra got from the exes as part of the divorce settlements?  Conveniently, we know nothing about them.

But we do know that her business is very successful. 

[Ohwell]

1 hour ago, biakbiak said:

But we do know that her business is very successful. 

I am not questioning whether the business is successful.  My point was that we don't know how much, if any, of the "success" of the business, at least initially, was attributed to any settlement she might have gotten from any of her exes.   

[Anela]

On 12/17/2018 at 9:06 AM, walnutqueen said:

Ronnie read that ?parole officer/cop? the riot act like nobody's business.  She's a pistol.  And then she's the shallow material girl who snots on self parking.  I'm beginning to lurve her.  😉

  Reveal spoiler

Apparently, her sister is just as feisty, but we've not been shown any of that - YET.

I love her, too, but maybe that's because I'm almost like her. I'm not much of a snob, and have never had money like she has, but I would have told that cop off, and would have treated John just the way she is - at least now that she knows that he's a bad guy.

On 12/17/2018 at 10:19 AM, Ohwell said:

When John was lying in the hospital bed spewing his "poor, pitiful me" bullshit, you could see how much Debra wanted to believe him.  I was actually more angry with her than with him, because at least I could understand him trying to save his ass.   However, with her I just wanted to reach through the tv screen and slap her upside the head.

I'm torn about Veronica.  I appreciate Veronica wanting to help her mother, and her mother is lucky to have her around.  I absolutely would want a pit bull like her to help me out if I needed it.  But she's still a purse swinging bitch and I can't stand her or her voice.  

Not me. I want to smack the crap out of HIM. Or just put him on ignore, which would bug him even more.

On 12/17/2018 at 12:55 PM, BeatrixK said:

Debra made the mistake of ignoring her instincts (just as a good Target typically does), and thinking because she 'knew' the lies...that she could hold her own in a conversation.  Nope...not so much.  NARC's may suck at being decent human beings, but they are Olympic level when it comes to exploiting a target's weakness if given the teeniest of opportunities to do so.

Yep. I spoke about mum's fiance in a couple of previous threads, sorry if I wasn't supposed to - after she moved us into a different place (after setting up a new, secret bank account, and saving money), he tracked down our phone number, and called her. She pretended to be really happy, and over it all. Said that she was engaged to another man. He kept trying to apologize, and get her emotions going, but she maintained her cheery demeanour, and when he said again how sorry he was, she just went, "eh, that's okay". LMAO! He apparently sounded confused, and never called her again. 

[Clanstarling]

On 12/18/2018 at 5:52 AM, sadie said:

Just chilling. If I didn’t know this was a true story I would call BS on the writers for having Arlene “forgive” her daughters murderous husband. As no real life person would ever do this.

As much as I cannot fathom it, there are real people in real life who forgive their children's murderers. Heck, some (if not all, I forget) of the parishioners of the church Dylan Roof shot up forgave him. Based on the ones I've read about, the connective thread seems to be strong faith, and belief in forgiveness.

I mean, I would never forgive. But I'm also not a person of faith.