S01.E04: Shrapnel

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

Debra confronts John; Arlane's past is revealed.

Original air date: 12/16/18

[Ohwell]

The moral of this episode?  You can't fix stupid.

That goes for Debra and her mama.

[MerBearStare]

Jesus, with a mom like that no wonder Debra is such a mess when it comes to men. What kind of messed up internalized misogyny must you possess to think that that guy just loves too much? It's one thing to forgive the person who murders your daughter - which no one is obligated to do - but it's a whole other crap ass thing to testify on that person's behalf. How do you even have a relationship with your mom/grandma after that?

Compared to that Debra isn't half bad. But that's a verrrrrrrrrry low bar. She and her sister deserved better from their mom and Debra's daughters deserve better from her.

[Pickles]

I cannot even believe Debra and her mother. Did Debra really file for an annulment? Next week she says something like she took vows for better or worse.

[CruiseDiva]

Debra made a huge mistake going to see Dirty John in the hospital and then picking him up when he was discharged. It's a shame her daughter couldn't block him from her phone. The man is pure evil and Debra is so stupid to believe anything he says.

[raiderred1]

Debra must have learned from the teachings of Seinfeld: Relationship breakups are like trying to tip over a Coke machine...you can't do it in one push, you gotta rock it back and forth.

Both Debra and her mother are lunatics! 

Sorry if this has been asked but are they originally from the Midwest? Very strong accents are being portrayed.

[MaryPatShelby]

6 hours ago, raiderred1 said:

Sorry if this has been asked but are they originally from the Midwest? Very strong accents are being portrayed.

Agreed.  Jean Smart is starting to sound like her character in Fargo.

[walnutqueen]

7 hours ago, CruiseDiva said:

Debra made a huge mistake going to see Dirty John in the hospital and then picking him up when he was discharged. It's a shame her daughter couldn't block him from her phone. The man is pure evil and Debra is so stupid to believe anything he says.

Yes.  He has an answer (LIE) for everything, and she is hellbent on being gullible.  I suppose she excuses it, just like her mother did, by thinking she's giving this POS  the benefit of the doubt.

[Empress1]

8 hours ago, Pickles said:

Next week she says something like she took vows for better or worse.

Which is rich considering she's got four EX-husbands.

The back story with Debra's mother and sister is one of the parts of this that just infuriated me, but it is illuminating. Debra was raised to put men first. Between that and a society that teaches everyone, but especially women, that "you're nobody until somebody loves you," it's  no wonder Debra ended up the way she is. Like the DA said, the family threw the sister straight under the bus.

It was a trip when Debra's mother told her grandson "So your father shot your mother and killed her but we'll be a'ight. Watch more TV."

[ElectricBoogaloo]

One thing I enjoyed about this episode is that once again, Veronica showed that she could be fiercely protective of her mother and still be a snotty brat. The tone of voice she used when she reminded her mother that the corporate place has (gasp!) SELF-PARKING cracked me up. I also loved her conversation with the cop.

But of course, Debra had to walk back into John's hospital room. WHY, DEBRA? FUUUUUUUUUUUUCK. You got away, girl! Don't walk back into the lion's den voluntarily.

Toby made me so sad. First his grandmother just straight up tells an 11 year old, "Your dad shot and killed your mom." Years later, he's still parroting her words: "what happened to mom - why dad did that thing to her because he loved her too much."
 

5 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

It was a trip when Debra's mother told her grandson "So your father shot your mother and killed her but we'll be a'ight. Watch more TV."

And not just tv - Saved by the Bell.

Edited December 17, 2018 by ElectricBoogaloo

[walnutqueen]

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

One thing I enjoyed about this episode is that once again, Veronica showed that she could be fiercely protective of her mother and still be a snotty brat. The tone of voice she used when she reminded her mother that the corporate place has (gasp!) SELF-PARKING cracked me up. I also loved her conversation with the cop.

Ronnie read that ?parole officer/cop? the riot act like nobody's business.  She's a pistol.  And then she's the shallow material girl who snots on self parking.  I'm beginning to lurve her.  ;-)

Spoiler

Apparently, her sister is just as feisty, but we've not been shown any of that - YET.

Edited December 17, 2018 by walnutqueen

[QuinnM]

16 minutes ago, walnutqueen said:

Ronnie read that ?parole officer/cop? the riot act like nobody's business.  She's a pistol.  And then she's the shallow material girl who snots on self parking.  I'm beginning to lurve her.  ;-)

I started giving her a day pass when she showed up on a moments notice to get her mother out of the Balboa apartment while John was hospitalized.  Her take down of that condescending cop gives her a pass for life.  This is who you want to bring with you when you need to return shoddy goods, discuss health options with your doctor and certainly when you are trying to get a cop to take you seriously.

[walnutqueen]

Just now, QuinnM said:

I started giving her a day pass when she showed up on a moments notice to get her mother out of the Balboa apartment while John was hospitalized.  Her take down of that condescending cop gives her a pass for life.  This is who you want to bring with you when you need to return shoddy goods, discuss health options with your doctor and certainly when you are trying to get a cop to take you seriously.

She's like a Tiger Mom, only better.  I want both daughters in my corner, "vocal fry" and all.

[BusyOctober]

Other than being smarter than her mother & grandmother, I haaaaate Veronica.  Her voice, her perma bitch-face and her attitude make me want to smash things.

Arlene is a complete psycho.  She passed the idiot gene to Debra for sure.  I can understand wanting to forgive people for doing terrible things to you or your family; that's a personal choice  and if it brings comfort & peace to the victim/victim's family, then great.  However...taking the side of the controlling, obsessive son-in-law & telling your daughter she is basically an ungrateful selfish bitch for not loving the jerk as much as he loved you, and then testifying on behalf of the man who SHOT YOUR DAUGHTER IN THE FACE is unfathomable.  She says her faith tells her to forgive, but I think Arlene is equating herself to Jesus versus emulating His teachings.  She has a God complex IMO.  That, along with her blind belief that men are gifts women should be thankful for, and never doubt/challenge/question/leave are as deadly a combo to her daughters/granddaughters as Bobby & John's rage, guns and drugs.  And if Jesus gave Arlene the strength to take the news from the cops & walk down that hall to tell her 11 year old grandson his mom was dead at his father's hand, I would've thought Jesus could've bestowed a grain of common sense (compassion?) as well.  Nope...drop the bomb that mommy is dead (but daddy is OK!), give him a squeeze and say Jesus will help them, so back to watching TV.  Byyeee!

I'm not sure how Debra became so successful in business.  She is coming across has an old fashioned brainless damsel in distress.  Her affect and manner of interacting with people (family, friends, co-workers) seems so weak and indecisive.  That big-eyed look when presented with info and that whispery baby-voice pre-set to utter "I-I-I don't know...what do YOU think?" just do not give off "savvy business woman" vibes.

[TexasGal]

I am sort of rubbing my hands with glee to see Veronica's reaction next week to finding out John is back.

I hope that in real life Debra's kids have broken this cycle the women in her family have with men.

[Ohwell]

When John was lying in the hospital bed spewing his "poor, pitiful me" bullshit, you could see how much Debra wanted to believe him.  I was actually more angry with her than with him, because at least I could understand him trying to save his ass.   However, with her I just wanted to reach through the tv screen and slap her upside the head.

I'm torn about Veronica.  I appreciate Veronica wanting to help her mother, and her mother is lucky to have her around.  I absolutely would want a pit bull like her to help me out if I needed it.  But she's still a purse swinging bitch and I can't stand her or her voice.  

[Amy Beth]

This episode showed the completely screwed up dynamics in Debra’s family of origin. 

But Debra did not and still does not forgive Bobby like her mother. She was willing to divorce several husbands, so it’s not as if she 100% internalized “til death do us part”.

So what about John is different, that she’s not willing to cut ties?

After his tearful “confession”, instead of agreeing to take him back, she could have offered to pay for any and all rehab he needed first. THAT would make some sense.

But this? Still not getting it.

[Joimiaroxeu]

IMO Arlene is a good example of what happens when religious belief turns toxic. Arlene learns her daughter has been murdered by her husband and her immediate thought was the effect it would have on her and whether she could handle it.

It was sad to watch Debra slowly talk herself into believing that what John did to her wasn't so bad. Love and forgiveness don't automatically or necessarily cure evil but those beliefs were her legacy from Arlene.

John chose a perfect victim in Debra. She was no match for that level of malevolence. Plus it seemed she just couldn't stand being alone.

I will never be able to wrap my head around defending the person who murdered your child.

Quote

purse swinging bitch

Heh, I like this description.

[Ohwell]

I guess since Veronica is short, she likes to wear those really high platform wedges and all I could think of was her driving and dangerous it might be wearing those things.  When they're that high you can't "feel" the pedals, and I remember reading about a woman wearing shoes like that, her shoe got caught up in the pedals, she wrecked her car and died.

[Pickles]

I would love some background on Debra's four marriages. How long was she married to those men? Where did they meet? How long were they married? Were they after her money? Were they losers? Why did they divorce? I just cannot imagine getting married four times! And then a fifth time with this scary guy. 

[Emmeline]

2 minutes ago, Pickles said:

I would love some background on Debra's four marriages. How long was she married to those men? Where did they meet? How long were they married? Were they after her money? Were they losers? Why did they divorce? I just cannot imagine getting married four times! And then a fifth time with this scary guy. 

You took the words right out of my mouth.  I was just about to post the same questions.  I’ve tried to find something about her previous husbands and didn’t find anything.  

[vmcd88]

After watching her sister's backstory and seeing how her mom not only forgave her daughter's murderer but testified on his behalf, no wonder Debra is easy pickings for someone like John.  Her justification would be that everything John did, he did for love.  So scary.  I will say that Ronnie (aka Veronica) is the real MVP of this series.  Ronnie complaining about self parking and no room service was hilarious.  Priorities people.  Just because you have a crazy ex-husband potentially stalking you, you dont want live like the poors.     

[EdnasEdibles]

27 minutes ago, Pickles said:

I would love some background on Debra's four marriages. How long was she married to those men? Where did they meet? How long were they married? Were they after her money? Were they losers? Why did they divorce? I just cannot imagine getting married four times! And then a fifth time with this scary guy. 

For real. I'm divorced once and it's going to be a LONG time before I consider marriage again. If ever. 

Debra and her mother seem to both equate love with being needed. Debra needs a man in her life to feel worthy and she's willing to overlook a lot of issues for the emotional security of a marriage. Debra's mother seemed really affected by the brother-in-law's desperation. You tell that she just did not understand why her daughter would rather be alone - It's like she was thinking "This guy wants you so badly! He really really wants you! Why on earth would you leave someone who needs to be with you?" So it almost seems like there's a part of her that blamed her daughter for her death. Like if she'd just agreed to stay with him, none of that would have ever happened. 

[bigmag]

Does it ever say anything about Debra's father?  He's obviously not in the picture, and I wonder what their relationship was like.  I also wonder what he did for a living, as they all seem to have a shit-ton of money.  The mom lives in a pretty fancy house, and it's just hard to imagine Dumb Debra accumulating enough wealth to buy all those high dollar properties as well as having a chunk of cash on the side.

[mythoughtis]

Even 20 years ago people recognized that shooting your spouse in the face was the total opposite of ‘loving them’. Any amount.   In my opinion  ‘ loving them too much’ means putting that person too far ahead of yourself in importance or in an unhealthy way - resulting in detriment to yourself. 

Even back then people recognized that what Bobby had been doing  to Cynthia(?) was the definition of a control freak.  The show indicated she wasn’t allowed to go anywhere alone, phone calls were monitored, etc.  How Arlene could misinterpret that is astounding.   

I could never testify for anyone accused of killing my child.  I don’t care how long I had known them.   The only exception to that is if it were ( and I knew it) in self defense- which is something I can’t see ever happening in our family.   Thankfully my children aren’t like Bobby. 

Edited December 17, 2018 by mythoughtis

[walnutqueen]

32 minutes ago, EdnasEdibles said:

For real. I'm divorced once and it's going to be a LONG time before I consider marriage again. If ever. 

Debra and her mother seem to both equate love with being needed. Debra needs a man in her life to feel worthy and she's willing to overlook a lot of issues for the emotional security of a marriage. Debra's mother seemed really affected by the brother-in-law's desperation. You tell that she just did not understand why her daughter would rather be alone - It's like she was thinking "This guy wants you so badly! He really really wants you! Why on earth would you leave someone who needs to be with you?" So it almost seems like there's a part of her that blamed her daughter for her death. Like if she'd just agreed to stay with him, none of that would have ever happened. 

Yeah, while conveniently skipping over the part where her daughter told her he was a controlling asshole who did not let her wear a bathing suit to the beach or go grocery shopping alone.  Because Mommie Dearest's religiosity told her a wife must cleave to her husband and his will, or some such happy horseshit. *

[/dripping sarcasm]

* and Mommie lusted after her son in law, in spirit

Edited December 17, 2018 by walnutqueen

[BeatrixK]

2 hours ago, Ohwell said:

When John was lying in the hospital bed spewing his "poor, pitiful me" bullshit, you could see how much Debra wanted to believe him.  I was actually more angry with her than with him, because at least I could understand him trying to save his ass.   However, with her I just wanted to reach through the tv screen and slap her upside the head.

 

First of all -- I will say that I COMPLETELY agree with posters who do NOT under any circumstances get Debra's behavior.  Having lived under the pull of a NARC for over 5 years, I had a completely different take on it -- and I lived it.  As utterly incomprehensible as Debra's behavior is...her actions and reactions are perfectly consistent with someone under the spell of a Narcissist.

There is a distinct reason that those who live under the 'spell' of a NARC are told, emphatically, NO CONTACT once you end it.  NARC's have a way of, when they get a target in their grasp, they KNOW just what buttons to push...they know what will work.  NARC's get a millimeter and can take as much length as they need.  They get into their target's head, and it is an act of God to move them out.  Debra's behavior is indicative of that.  And, from the target's perspective...the gaslighting takes it's toll, and, there is very little practical evidence you can shove in the person's face about how horrid a NARC's behavior or past is...the NARC has an ability to flip some switch in the target's head because actual reality is no longer your reality -- the NARC's reality is your reality.  In my case...I believe I just was not prepared to accept how hard I'd been duped, or that the man who swept me off my feet in the early stages who flew me to California so we could have a sunset dinner on the beach for Valentine's day (yes, he did.) was NOT the evil monster who ended up leaving me financially devastated and broken hearted.  It's really hard when you've been groomed by the NARC to believe YOUR views are not correct and there is something wrong with YOU to accept that your judgement is sound.

Make no mistake -- I do not hold myself blameless -- I had signs I rationalized away...I had friends and family telling me 'Uh...you do know he's shady, right?'...it was all there.  But he figured out which buttons to push and when and it took a fulcrum shift for me to finally break free.  At least it finally happened -- but I still look back on that period and think 'How on earth did you not take that out when you had it?!?!?!'  The reason was...I took pity on his sob stories...on how his 'evil ex wife' was making his life hell...on how he knew I was the only one who could 'make him whole...I made the mistake of thinking I 'knew' his game...and ignored the NO CONTACT edict...and let's just say it didn't work out as I'd hoped.

Debra made the mistake of ignoring her instincts (just as a good Target typically does), and thinking because she 'knew' the lies...that she could hold her own in a conversation.  Nope...not so much.  NARC's may suck at being decent human beings, but they are Olympic level when it comes to exploiting a target's weakness if given the teeniest of opportunities to do so.

[Hagosaurus]

I too am wondering about Debra's father. Was he still married to Arlene? Is he dead? What did he think of his SIL murdering Cindy? For some reason I get the feeling that Arlene was married multiple times just like Debra. 

[TattleTeeny]

Quote

But she's still a purse swinging bitch

Haha, whenever I see someone on TV who carries her purse that way, I assume we're supposed to know she's a prissy snot. It seems to me that, IRL, prissy snobs carry a purse like that (which does not indicate the reverse, mind you).

[bichonblitz]

33 minutes ago, BeatrixK said:

First of all -- I will say that I COMPLETELY agree with posters who do NOT under any circumstances get Debra's behavior.  Having lived under the pull of a NARC for over 5 years, I had a completely different take on it -- and I lived it.  As utterly incomprehensible as Debra's behavior is...her actions and reactions are perfectly consistent with someone under the spell of a Narcissist.

She only knew Jon for a few months, though, before discovering the real Jon. Early enough to break free from his spell. 

[BeatrixK]

18 minutes ago, bichonblitz said:

She only knew Jon for a few months, though, before discovering the real Jon. Early enough to break free from his spell. 

Not necessarily -- the term for what they do is 'Love Bomb' -- and, in the case of my ex --- he left to get back with his ex-wife...a woman who KNEW what he was capable of, and divorced him once.  

The amount of time it took for her to take him back and remarry him:  4 weeks.  And this was having KNOWN - and her experiencing -- what he can do.   (And believe me -- she and I talk now that he is out of our lives...she is still angry with herself for letting him worm back in.  But he did.  He knew the right triggers, and laid it out for her.)

[CaliCheeseSucks]

Kind of a boring, place-setting episode - necessary to understand context but not the most interesting hour. 

I was glad to see that there's a reason why they cast Jean Smart and stuck her in a Sophia Petrillo wig for the first three episodes. 

Arlene is beyond toxic and Debra definitely inherited that trait. Thank goodness Veronica and Terra are more world-wise/weary and capable of seeing through, and cutting through, bullshit.

[Barb23]

6 hours ago, Ohwell said:

I guess since Veronica is short, she likes to wear those really high platform wedges and all I could think of was her driving and dangerous it might be wearing those things.  When they're that high you can't "feel" the pedals, and I remember reading about a woman wearing shoes like that, her shoe got caught up in the pedals, she wrecked her car and died.

Veronica did complain to her mother that because she was short,  she couldn't see that well over the dash of The Rover.  Life is tough.

I did like Veronica's white shirt & the dress she had on when she went to visit Debra at the corporate suites (where they have shower curtains, self parking & no room service.) Once again, life is tough. 

When Debra had the dark wig on at her mother's door, it reminded me of the Julia Robert's character in Sleeping with the Enemy.

I too was wondering about Arlene's husband(s) / Debra's father. 

8 hours ago, TexasGal said:

I am sort of rubbing my hands with glee to see Veronica's reaction next week to finding out John is back.

 

Me too!

Spoiler

Especially when it looks like he's sitting in her room at the corporate suites.  So much for hiding from the guy.

[Irritable]

I nearly just gave up and turned this off when Debra said to her mother, “He never actually did anything to me except lie”.  Um, does stealing $80-90,000 in cash not count????

Edited December 18, 2018 by Irritable

[Showthyme]

Bravo needs to run a "Before Dirty John" series and give us 4 good episodes spilling the tea on Debra's life before John. Channeling Phaedra Parks, "Something in the buttermilk ain't clean." I am always skeptical when they sanctify the victim. Debra is accomplished, beautiful, yada, yada, yada. She is a terrible mother, like her mother. There is a lot to uncover about Debra. 

It is amazing how sociopaths know how to pick their victims and say or do just the right thing to keep them around. Terrifying actually. 

[ribboninthesky1]

I'd recorded this show on my DVR, and just caught up.  I read the LA Times series about this awhile back, and...it's a lot. 

2 hours ago, Barb23 said:

Veronica did complain to her mother that because she was short,  she couldn't see that well over the dash of The Rover.  Life is tough.

I did like Veronica's white shirt & the dress she had on when she went to visit Debra at the corporate suites (where they have shower curtains, self parking & no room service.) Once again, life is tough. 

The bolded - too funny! And yes, Ronnie's dress was cute! I'd prefer it a little longer for me, but she's young and skinny. 

26 minutes ago, Irritable said:

I nearly just gave up and turned this off when Debra said to her mother, “He neber actually did anything to me except lie”.  Um, does stealing $80-90,000 in cash not count????

I mean...why are you being rational and logical and asking valid questions? Debra would just give you that perpetually confused look because there are no good answers here. 

6 minutes ago, Showthyme said:

Bravo needs to run a "Before Dirty John" series and give us 4 good episodes spilling the tea on Debra's life before John. Channeling Phaedra Parks, "Something in the buttermilk ain't clean." I am always skeptical when they sanctify the victim. Debra is accomplished, beautiful, yada, yada, yada. She is a terrible mother, like her mother. There is a lot to uncover about Debra. 

Yes, I have questions too.  I agree with someone's prior comment that they're making Debra seem smarter in this series, and that's saying something. They definitely skipped over a few of Debra's decisions and behavior that would have made her look even worse.  I've known and am related to people who are pushovers and non-confrontational.  Debra is on an entirely different level. If she really saw a therapist in real life with her daughters, it really did her absolutely no good.  And like others have posted, I'm very curious about her business and if that's truly how she became wealthy.  I can appreciate that she's a creative and that they can be a bit eccentric, but she must have some really good, decent people around for her business to thrive.  Because she's ripe for someone committing all kinds of financial crimes through her business.  

[Barb23]

I'm a non-confrontational person but John would never had made it far into my life.  I'm not sure I would have given him a second chance after how he dressed & especially how he acted at the end of the first date. He definitely would have gotten a kick to & out of the front door if he would have made mention of the specifics of killing my daughter like he did at the dinner with Toby even if he said it was a joke. 

2 hours ago, Irritable said:

I nearly just gave up and turned this off when Debra said to her mother, “He neber actually did anything to me except lie”.  Um, does stealing $80-90,000 in cash not count????

 

And it wasn't one little lie.  His whole life is one lie after the other.  Lies to cover up lies. And he had some doozies including blaming his ex-wife. But Debra is thinking like her mother with the "nobody is without sin" & "everybody can be saved" lines.

Edited December 18, 2018 by Barb23

[BusyOctober]

1 hour ago, Irritable said:

 

I nearly just gave up and turned this off when Debra said to her mother, “He never actually did anything to me except lie”.  Um, does stealing $80-90,000 in cash not count????

 

Right?? As if he lies were itty bitty little fibs, like “I only had 2 beers” or “no, your meatloaf is way better than my mom’s!”, and not about HUGE components of his life, such as:

His nursing/ medical degrees?  

His military experience?

His addiction?

His homelessness?

His criminal record?

Or what about the way he spoke to or about your daughter (“joked” she needed to be shot) and your nephew (taunting him about his dad killing his mom)? None of these neon red flags were enough to make you go, “hmm...wait just a minute...something seems a little ‘off’ with this guy”???  Good Lord, his obsessive compulsion with making me a freakin’ smoothie Every. Damn. Morning. would be enough to make me toss his ass out.

I said it other episode threads- the real Debra and her family were John’s victims and no one should have to live through those horrible experiences.  But...when you find out the guy is a thief, a criminal, an addict, a stalker, a colossal liar, and lawyers and cops are afraid of him, yet you still go back to him and try to find the good where none is to be found, it is difficult to be 100% on your side and empathetic.  

[ribboninthesky1]

1 hour ago, Barb23 said:

I'm not sure I would have given him a second chance after how he dressed & especially how he acted at the end of the first date. He definitely would have gotten a kick to & out of the front door if he would have made mention of the specifics of killing my daughter like he did at the dinner with Toby even if he said it was a joke. 

Agreed, his behavior on the first date was creepy and majorly off.  I realize there are male narcissists out there who are very good at putting on an act from the very beginning to draw women in and make it hard to break free (I suspect that's what happened with Tonia).  In this context, John's behavior was off from act one, scene one.  Debra chose to ignore it.  

[princelina]

14 hours ago, Ohwell said:

When John was lying in the hospital bed spewing his "poor, pitiful me" bullshit, you could see how much Debra wanted to believe him.  I was actually more angry with her than with him, because at least I could understand him trying to save his ass.   However, with her I just wanted to reach through the tv screen and slap her upside the head.

I'm torn about Veronica.  I appreciate Veronica wanting to help her mother, and her mother is lucky to have her around.  I absolutely would want a pit bull like her to help me out if I needed it.  But she's still a purse swinging bitch and I can't stand her or her voice.  

I think the actors are doing a really great job - I could see in her face when she was talking to mom, Toby and daughter that she was thinking of how to justify his behavior.  And when they were wheeling him out of the hospital his face looked positively evil.

14 hours ago, Amy Beth said:

But Debra did not and still does not forgive Bobby like her mother. She was willing to divorce several husbands, so it’s not as if she 100% internalized “til death do us part”.

So what about John is different, that she’s not willing to cut ties?

 

13 hours ago, Pickles said:

I would love some background on Debra's four marriages. How long was she married to those men? Where did they meet? How long were they married? Were they after her money? Were they losers? Why did they divorce? I just cannot imagine getting married four times! And then a fifth time with this scary guy. 

 

13 hours ago, Emmeline said:

You took the words right out of my mouth.  I was just about to post the same questions.  I’ve tried to find something about her previous husbands and didn’t find anything.  

That's what I have been wondering too.  But you know they say that the "50% of all marriages end in divorce" statistic is not accurate because some people stay married for life and others get married a bunch of times.  I have a friend who has been married 4 times and almost made it a 5th, with a guy who she had broken up with several times, a controlling SOB who complained that she was both too fat and didn't cook well enough, didn't want her children/grandson visiting, and luckily there was an incident a few weeks before their wedding which caused her to move out and break it off.  She and I had found her a "wedding dress" which was really just a formal gown, on super sale at Macy's for @$80, and she looked fabulous in it.  But she just left it at his house.  (Why? you may ask?  IMO, so that he would feel guilty, rue the day, etc. and lead to him calling to express his regrets.  Now time has passed and she works in fundraising and is pissed she doesn't have that dress.). On topic - easy marks continue being easy marks for the con men until they finally get away.  For all we know, John had had other first dates like the one with Debra, but those women were done with him after that.  But I would like to know what happened with the other husbands - too bad there's no info.  Usually I can find that kind of information here :)

[sadie]

Just chilling. If I didn’t know this was a true story I would call BS on the writers for having Arlene “forgive” her daughters murderous husband. As no real life person would ever do this. It literally made me want to vomit and I hope this coming out on national television shames this horrible woman forever. Harsh you may think, but giving evil a free pass like this is despicable. The guy told her it was PREMEDITATED,  came up behind an unarmed innocent woman with her back turned and put a freaking gun to her head and pulled the trigger. Then the coward had the balls to sob about his pain and how much he loved her. Unbelievable. And Arlene thinks she’s a good person in doing this. Debra never stood a chance in life with this crazy woman as her mother. 

John in the hospital lying his ass off was just as chilling and watching Debra work so hard mentally to buy into his bullshit was a sad day for humanity. He didn’t just lie about something benign he lied about his frickin entire life and this crazy lonely desperate woman so wanted to keep her hot stud that she caved. Ugh! I need a drink after every episode. 

[Starlight925]

I know we are not supposed to talk about personal experiences, so mine is on the Small Talk thread, but I can tell you why a woman like Debra (or me, as I am similar to her in age, etc.) falls for a DJ:  You have everything you want.  Great business, beautiful home, friends, health.....everything but  "the guy".  
You go to parties, events, vacations, and everyone else seems coupled up.  And you date a few duds, get married a few times to losers (although we know little about Debra's past marriages), and along comes this tall, good-looking, "great guy" who thinks you're perfect, as is.

IRL, Debra met John on OurTime, a site for 50+ singles.  She met him after a few dud dates, with zero chemistry, or guys who talked endlessly about themselves.  Her most recent relationship prior to John was with a guy who told her she was too fat.

So when John came along, and told her everything she wanted to hear, and he supposedly had as much to bring to the table as she did, it was like.....bam....sparks flew.

We saw this in the first episode, at their first meeting, sitting at that bar, giggling.  Oxytocin kicked in, and Debra was a goner.

[itsadryheat]

On 12/16/2018 at 9:22 PM, CruiseDiva said:

Debra made a huge mistake going to see Dirty John in the hospital and then picking him up when he was discharged. It's a shame her daughter couldn't block him from her phone. The man is pure evil and Debra is so stupid to believe anything he says.

And I made a huge mistake trying to watch his whiny hospital scene. I fast forwarded during the pathetic crying jag. 

[Special K]

The actors in this series are killing it.  Connie Britton does so much with her face it's unreal -- especially in that scene in the hospital room.  But also Jean Smart and Juno Temple -- they all are showing such complexity and internal conflict.  And the director is doing a great job laying our a very hard to believe story -- it would be easy to just turn these characters into stereotypes, rubes, or villains. 

[teddysmom]

On 12/17/2018 at 6:21 AM, MaryPatShelby said:

On 12/16/2018 at 11:47 PM, raiderred1 said:

Sorry if this has been asked but are they originally from the Midwest? Very strong accents are being portrayed.

Agreed.  Jean Smart is starting to sound like her character in Fargo.

I said the same thing a couple episodes ago. Like I was watching the OC version of Fargo.  Is the daughter played by Juno Temple really that much of a spoiled brat?  Does she have a job other than wearing those kicky skirts and going purse shopping? 

Eric Bana did a great job in that hospital scene.  I didn't think I could hate John any more than I did, but he proved me wrong. 

[Neurochick]

19 hours ago, Showthyme said:

Bravo needs to run a "Before Dirty John" series and give us 4 good episodes spilling the tea on Debra's life before John. Channeling Phaedra Parks, "Something in the buttermilk ain't clean." I am always skeptical when they sanctify the victim. Debra is accomplished, beautiful, yada, yada, yada. She is a terrible mother, like her mother. There is a lot to uncover about Debra. 

I think what's to uncover isn't anything salacious, I think it's about ego.  Debra feels that John is a good looking man and this good looking man wants her, which makes Debra feel good about herself. 

When Debra found out John was a lying scumbag/con man, she realized he was playing her and I think she knows that, but she can't bring herself to accept the fact that if John is conning her, he's NOT into her AT ALL.  And I think that's more painful that John being a con man, that he isn't attracted to her especially when Debra thinks she's all that.  

[Starlight925]

6 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I think what's to uncover isn't anything salacious, I think it's about ego.  Debra feels that John is a good looking man and this good looking man wants her, which makes Debra feel good about herself. 

When Debra found out John was a lying scumbag/con man, she realized he was playing her and I think she knows that, but she can't bring herself to accept the fact that if John is conning her, he's NOT into her AT ALL.  And I think that's more painful that John being a con man, that he isn't attracted to her especially when Debra thinks she's all that.  

I think this bolded part is so true, and it makes so much sense!

If John is running a scam, then that means that all the sweet nothings, the smoothies, the shower temperature, all mean nothing.  It just means that he was buttering her up so she'd let him stay long enough to go after her money.

That's a bigger disappointment to Debra than anything else.  The fact that, as it turns out, he actually doesn't have the feelings that he promised her he did.  Which is why it's so hard for her to let go.  Letting go of the illusion is the hardest part.  I've been there, so I get it.

[ribboninthesky1]

3 hours ago, Sterling said:

We saw this in the first episode, at their first meeting, sitting at that bar, giggling.  Oxytocin kicked in, and Debra was a goner.

Where I struggle with Debra is the "John barges into her room, lays across her bed, and refuses to get up when she asks" scene.  If it were me, I would have been terrified what this stranger would do.  And then the way he just wordlessly got up and left?  What happened when she invited him home would have negated any positive elements at the beginning of the date.  And that's in addition to things like the way he was dressed for a first date.  I don't expect a suit and tie, but a normal man would look like he put some effort into it.  

This episode focused a lot on Arlene, presumably as a way to explain how Debra came to be who she is.  Thing is, it made me more confused about Debra in some ways. 

[2727]

I finally looked up a picture of the actual Debra and John. In spoilers just in case, but it's just the photo. I was impressed at how close the casting is.

Spoiler

https://d3p157427w54jq.cloudfront.net/uploads/2017/10/la-john-in-scrubs-20171005.jpg

[Special K]

I also think some women want to be the one to reform the bad boy.  Or they like to think their love can reform the bad boy.