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S37.E14: David vs Goliath Reunion

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2 hours ago, driver18 said:

I'm confused... seriously. Am I the only one who saw the part of Angelina's interview where she said that watching back the season she saw what everyone else saw? She understood why people were saying what they were about her, she understood why social media was going after her the way they were? She knew that she was way too extra, that the game plan she'd had in mind "leaning in" too much, being aggressive, she hadn't played the right way and she completely understood why people saw her as they did?  I ask because I keep reading comment after comment that only acknowledges the first part of her interview which I do think has some validity. Women are judged differently, and while she did bring a lot of criticism she received on herself (again, which she acknowledged), I do think it's quite possible that she may have gotten less leeway as she was a female. Which Jeff said as much.

I mean, that did happen though, right? I'm not the only one who saw that second part of her interview? I was dead-tired last night, so who knows, maybe I hallucinated it because seriously, between this thread and the Finale thread absolutely no one else has mentioned it. Just the repetition of her being unself-aware which she totally seemed to be before that part of the interview. That did happen. Right? Right?!

 

Yep, it did happen! I did read a post (in her thread, I think) that mentioned something about her admitting she’d change up a few things if she came back. I remember when she made that comment it was pretty clear to me she meant “more than a few” by her tone of voice and facial expression. 

Edited by RescueMom
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18 hours ago, Silver Raven said:

So Angelina being an unmitigated asshole from the first second of the first episode until the very last show is just because she's a strong woman, huh?

Really?  Please cite examples of this. The only thing close to being an asshole is the fake idol with Alison. Other than that I have no idea what you're talking about. She was annoying. Sure. Entitled, delusional? Ok.   There is no one on the cast, you know the ones who actually lived with her would describe her as such. smh.

Edited by LanceM
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49 minutes ago, RescueMom said:

Yep, it did happen! I did read a post (in her thread, I think) that mentioned something about her admitting she’d change up a few things if she came back. I remember when she made that comment it was pretty clear to me she meant “more than a few” by her tone of voice and facial expression. 

Thank you for letting me know that I'm not going crazy!

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12 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

All you Angelina haters are a bunch of misogynists, who can't handle a strong woman.

She climbed 150 feet up an 8 foot ladder (She literally could have died!) to find an idol.

Sure, she needed the help of 2 men, because she lost the clue and was afraid of the 8 foot ladder.  OK, one of those men had a BAC of about 0.25, and found the clue without putting down his wine glass.  But, nothing says "strong woman" like being an incompetent, damsel in distress.

Then, she masterfully used that idol, plus a fake idol, that everyone knew was fake, to turn a routine 3-2 vote in her alliance's favor into a routine 3-0 vote in her alliance's favor.  It was amazing...like making a head first slide, into first base, on a walk.

And, while she doesn't like to mention it, after Jeff rejected what she told him was her low-ball offer (of everything in camp), she "won" rice for the tribe, by agreeing to sit out an immunity challenge, that she DEFINITELY would have won, because it was a puzzle.

That sacrifice threw her off for the rest of the season, as she bombed in all the later puzzle challenges, obviously because sitting out for the rice messed up her puzzle rhythm.

Thank you.

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Gabby's "double standard" speech was such nonsense.  If a guy wept frequently in front of the tribe, do you think the audience would say, "It's great to see someone with such strong emotions."?  Was Brandon Hantz praised for being emotional, or labeled a nut job?  If anything, women generally get more of a pass if they are overly emotional.  

As for "assertive women being called bossy", bossy men are also resented and often targeted.  Pat was rubbing people the wrong way, and might have been voted off early, if he had not been injured.  Another factor with bossy castaways, is that the bossy males are often instrumental in building a good shelter and getting the camp organized, while a lot of the bossy women tend to bark out order or criticize the way others are doing things, while doing little work and not being very useful. (Yes, I'm talking to you, Natalie).

The bossy, but useful, men often get kept around for a while so their labor can be exploited.  Sometimes, during this period, they tone it down, or their tribe mates get used to them, so they stay longer. 

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25 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Gabby's "double standard" speech was such nonsense.  If a guy wept frequently in front of the tribe, do you think the audience would say, "It's great to see someone with such strong emotions."?  Was Brandon Hantz praised for being emotional, or labeled a nut job?  If anything, women generally get more of a pass if they are overly emotional.  

As for "assertive women being called bossy", bossy men are also resented and often targeted.  Pat was rubbing people the wrong way, and might have been voted off early, if he had not been injured.  Another factor with bossy castaways, is that the bossy males are often instrumental in building a good shelter and getting the camp organized, while a lot of the bossy women tend to bark out order or criticize the way others are doing things, while doing little work and not being very useful. (Yes, I'm talking to you, Natalie).

The bossy, but useful, men often get kept around for a while so their labor can be exploited.  Sometimes, during this period, they tone it down, or their tribe mates get used to them, so they stay longer. 

Pat started off rough and people figured it out. I think that goes for most people. It is more the attitude then anything. Angelina never struck me as bossy or aggressive, just self centered and entitled but thinking she was aggressive and a forward thinker.

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It just occurred to me that we checked in on Pat, who left with an injury, and not Bi, who left with an injury.

She didn’t want her knee to get worse to damage her career, so I want to know what ended up being wrong with the knee.  And also she must have decided to put her career on hold anyways, because ya can’t really fight in UFC while pregnant.

Jessica, I was not at all curious about.  But it would have been nice to give a few seconds to Bi.  She must be a mean girl in real life, as she was portrayed on the show, since she didn’t raise her hand when Jeff asked if anyone else didn’t like their edit.

And hey I’m surprised Jeff restrained himself and didn’t ask the jury if Christian had been in the final three if he would have won.  Too many variables probably.

Nick saying out loud in front of everyone he picked Angelina to go to the end with him because he knew he could beat her was priceless and I love him for it.

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Pat was forced to leave because of an injury. Bi quit with an injury that she could have played on. Bi has said in interviews that she knows she could have stayed but was concerned she would hurt herself worse and so she choose to leave. So it is a different scenario. In TPTB eyes, Bi is a quitter and gets no extra time.

Jeff has become more hard core about medical quits and I can understand why. Would Bi have left if Lyrsa had gone home instead of Jessica (I think it was Lyrsa at risk that tribal)? I suspect that Bi would have stayed if she hadn't just been blindsided but she saw that she was not in a great game position so why risk further injury? I don't know that for certain, that is what my gut says. After Colton's BS medical evac, quitting for an injury that medical says is not not threatening is a no go.

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31 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

Pat started off rough and people figured it out. I think that goes for most people. It is more the attitude then anything. Angelina never struck me as bossy or aggressive, just self centered and entitled but thinking she was aggressive and a forward thinker.

I agree on Angelina.  She was extremely self-centered and seemed to expect everyone else to be as Angelina-centered as she was.  If she wants a jacket, she expects everyone else to want a jacket for her as much as she does.  If she participates in a strategic move, she expects everyone to give her as much credit as she give herself (i.e., all of it) and realize how brilliant she is.  When she wants to unnecessarily play a real idol and a fake idol at TC, in a misguided attempt to build her resume, she expects her allies to be as excited about it as she is.  

Anyone who ever tells other players, "I need this big move to help my resume" is probably very self-centered and unaware that it is a problem.  Why would I want to help you build your resume?  So, you can beat me at FTC?   

4 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

Pat was forced to leave because of an injury. Bi quit with an injury that she could have played on. Bi has said in interviews that she knows she could have stayed but was concerned she would hurt herself worse and so she choose to leave. So it is a different scenario. In TPTB eyes, Bi is a quitter and gets no extra time.

Jeff has become more hard core about medical quits and I can understand why. Would Bi have left if Lyrsa had gone home instead of Jessica (I think it was Lyrsa at risk that tribal)? I suspect that Bi would have stayed if she hadn't just been blindsided but she saw that she was not in a great game position so why risk further injury? I don't know that for certain, that is what my gut says. After Colton's BS medical evac, quitting for an injury that medical says is not not threatening is a no go.

I liked Bi, and didn't have a huge problem with her quitting to prevent further injury.   But, I think she was well enough to at least wait until the next TC and ask to be voted off.   

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I dunno, I'll give her the benefit of the doubt that her situation is unique in that she had prior knee injuries, per her report, and that the possibility of further damage was going to harm her livelihood.

Also she is a quitter.  

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Just now, mojoween said:

I dunno, I'll give her the benefit of the doubt that her situation is unique in that she had prior knee injuries, per her report, and that the possibility of further damage was going to harm her livelihood.

Also she is a quitter.  

I don't have a problem with her decision but I understand why Probst talked to Pat and not Bi. It was not a matter of going out with an injury but how that decision was made. Pat had no choice and appeared to be in bad shape. People wanted to know if he had healed and how he was doing. Bi made a choice, for perfectly valid reasons, but her decision didn't have the same life or death or possibly permanent injury feel that Pat's did.

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I must confess I totally forgot about Bi until last night. There was a boot clip thing on YouTube of the cast and when they got to Bi on the beach leaving I literally forgot about her. Usually, it’s a big thing but even on the island in real time Probst wasn’t happy about it. Even real quitters get a big send off. Bi just got a Bye Felicia and they continued the game. Pretty crazy.

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4 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

Angelina never struck me as bossy or aggressive...

One reason Angelina didn't pull off the Christian boot was that in a pretty aggressive way she tried to boss the other Goliaths around. 

One reason Mike did pull off the Christian boot was that in a very gentle, subtle way he finessed the other Goliaths over to his point of view (which was correct IMO). 

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Survivor has been quite tough this year on those who have left for medical conditions, this has been seen several times outside the US version, people even going to tribal to leave than being medivaced beforehand.  The US version hasn't been as tough as that yet.

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21 hours ago, LanceM said:

Really?  Please cite examples of this. The only thing close to being an asshole is the fake idol with Alison. Other than that I have no idea what you're talking about. She was annoying. Sure. Entitled, delusional? Ok.   There is no one on the cast, you know the ones who actually lived with her would describe her as such. smh.

The very first second when we were introduced to the Davids and the Goliaths, she was smirking as the Davids came in and talked about the poor, bedraggled, hopeless Davids.

Not to mention all of the jacket bullshit.

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If you remove the preview for next season and the lengthy commercial breaks, the reunion itself was about 15 minutes.  And for most of these people, their 15 minutes are over. 

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10 hours ago, Silver Raven said:

The very first second when we were introduced to the Davids and the Goliaths, she was smirking as the Davids came in and talked about the poor, bedraggled, hopeless Davids.

Not to mention all of the jacket bullshit.

That was edited. They were not laughing at the Davids coming off the boat. They were laughing at a joke one of the Davids had said when they were all standing around.

As far as that confessional goes that is just the producers prodding the cast to talk about the theme and you know they prodded the Goliaths to act all arrogant. Still though I guess you could say she didn't have to comply.  I had no issue with it.

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I can't be the only one to notice the tattoo of what looked like a cat wearing a green members only jacket, visible on someone's arm (Lyrsa?) in every shot of Christian during the reunion show?

Edited by piewarmer · Reason: egregious apostrophe
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Jeff: You are so right, Angelina! Women who are assertive get a bad rap. It's so great that we are entering such a new era where women can be taken seriously and respected! Now, let's play a clip of you that makes you look like a complete idiot!

That infuriated me. He's always been pretty sexist, but that was just blatant. 

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I finally got to watch last week’s show and reunion. When Jeff mentioned someone lost 80+ pounds on an early season, I screamed at my TV it was because they weren’t always get food rewards thrown at them. To me, that really proved how times changed. 

I loved seeing Christian. I really wanted to see him in the F3. But I was happy with Nick winning. 

Edited by nutty1
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7 hours ago, nutty1 said:

I finally got to watch last week’s show and reunion. When Jeff mentioned someone lost 80+ pounds on an early season, I screamed at my TV it was because they weren’t always get food rewards thrown at them. To me, that really proved how times changed. 

I loved seeing Christian. I really wanted to see him in the F3. But I was happy with Nick winning. 

That was Big Tom.

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17 minutes ago, nutty1 said:

Another thing. When Angelina said  she was a woman of color.....I’m confused? Can someone explain. 

She is Hispanic.  

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15 hours ago, nutty1 said:

I finally got to watch last week’s show and reunion. When Jeff mentioned someone lost 80+ pounds on an early season, I screamed at my TV it was because they weren’t always get food rewards thrown at them. To me, that really proved how times changed. 

—————————————————

That was Big Tom

I was wondering about that, he said “went on to lose 80+ lbs,” did he mean he continued to lose weight lost-show? Because he was a large man, but I find it hard to believe that he could have lost over 80 lbs in the 37-ish days he was out there. 

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5 hours ago, ljenkins782 said:

I was wondering about that, he said “went on to lose 80+ lbs,” did he mean he continued to lose weight lost-show? Because he was a large man, but I find it hard to believe that he could have lost over 80 lbs in the 37-ish days he was out there. 

I can. Africa was a rough season. They couldn’t go out to find food because of lions and elephants. There was not water that they could fish in. The only food was provided by production. Tom was big and lost a ton of weight.

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6 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

I can. Africa was a rough season. They couldn’t go out to find food because of lions and elephants. There was not water that they could fish in. The only food was provided by production. Tom was big and lost a ton of weight.

A major factor in S3 (Africa) which made it much more difficult on the participants was the location: Shaba National Reserve in central Kenya:

  • On the National Reserve, hunting/killing any of the local wildlife was strictly prohibited - barring the contestants from adding any additional protein sources to the show-supplied rice diet.
  • Unlike earlier seasons (S1 Borneo or S2 Australia), there was no access to ocean or major sustaining water bodies;  the Reserve was landlocked, and the closest natural water sources were water holes and seasonal streams - neither ideal for fishing to supplement the diet.  
  • The water holes were frequently contaminated by animal use, and IIRC the one major nearby stream actually dried up at one point during the season’s shooting.  Keep in mind this was in the show’s infancy, and Production had not yet begun constructing man-made “water wells” for each tribe; the S3 tribulations, in fact, may well have been Production’s “lessons learned” impetus to start.
  •  In a related vein - tribes were still required to boil water gathered from local sources, making possession of fire much more of a survival necessity than in subsequent seasons.

...all of which is to say under such circumstances, it wouldn’t surprise me one bit if mild to moderate bouts of dysentery weren’t also a regular part of the Survivor:Africa experience - and given such a context, something like a contestant’s 80-lb weight loss might make a little more sense.

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I was pleasantly surprised that this reunion was devoid of the usual filler, apart from the kid predicting the winner.  Usually while the show is airing we get clips of the studio audience at commercial break and Jeff asking some stupid question.  We had none of that.  I was also surprised that two times it looked like the reunion was coming back from commercial only to get a "stay tuned we'll be right back" and then right back to commercial.  It was almost like they ran out of material.  I wonder if a planned Sia-like "let's give money to Christian" bit fell through and they didn't know what to do.  

In particular, I wanted to hear from Alison on why she thought she was such a threat when she really accomplished next to nothing.  Loved how on the Davie elimination, Mike said that everyone keeps saying that Alison is such a threat but she finished in last place on that challenge.  She was a threat only in her head, always on the verge of breaking through.  I was shocked that Jeff actually made it to the back row twice, once to talk to Natalie at length, and another time to briefly chat with Pat.  Usually he never gets there.

On 12/19/2018 at 10:58 PM, Eolivet said:

I still would love to know where Jeff is getting this idea that Angelina played a "strong game" and she was a "powerful woman." I know he'd never point it out, but I think he was trying to go about it in a roundabout way that it wasn't her force of will that irritated people, it was the begging and the entitlement. Which is sort of a hallmark of a weak player.

Social media didn't hate you because you were a strong woman, Angelina. They likely hated you because in the entire 37 seasons of the show, we've never seen anyone ask for someone else's jacket, like it was their god-given right. The fact that she characterized it as "creativity" and not what people likely saw it for -- arrogance and tone deafness -- is why she will always feel slighted, no matter what she does, and will take nothing from this experience but the self-assuredness that she is right, and everyone else is just jealous haters.

She basically claimed that she was edited poorly, right?  She acknowledged that she was a very polarising figure on the show but not at all like that in real life.  Really?  She will always continue to be cluelessly unaware of how she comes across to others.  I guess being overly aggressive and domineering and manipulative and bossy and self-promoting is all ok if you're a "strong woman"?  I don't disagree with Jeff that men and women are often treated differently, but I do disagree that men would get a complete pass.  If a man acted the way Angelina did I don't think people would be hailing him as a hero.  They'd be treating him like the plague like how Russell Hantz was viewed.

I loved that Davie called Angelina out on continuously promoting her "selfless act".  

On 12/20/2018 at 11:29 AM, brilliantbreakfast said:

And oh, by the way, Twitter was full of REAL women of color last night saying "WTF" about the obviously Caucasian Angelina trying to convince people she is one too.

Apparently she claims she is Hispanic?  Her Survivor bio bragged about how she was elected as student body president of Stanford to serve over 15,000 students and was the first Latina ever to do this.  I had no idea she was Hispanic, I had always thought she was Caucasian, possibly of Italian descent.  Lyrsa is obviously Hispanic.  I wouldn't have thought Angelina was.  Whether she is 100% or 50% or some smaller percentage or Hispanic in the way that Elizabeth Warren is Native American... I find it interesting that she is pulling the "woman of colour" card.  Because yes, she looks white.  I would doubt she's ever been treated negatively as a "woman of colour" in the sense that someone like Natalie or Lyrsa or Gabby probably has.

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Angelina and Lyrsa both discussed how they had a connection because they were both Hispanic. I read in Lyrsa’s interview that the two spoke in Spanish often. I have friends from Mexico who look white. Keep in mind that there are European descendants who have lived for generations in Latin America so there are Mexicans, and others, who look Spanish. The only reason Hispanics exist is because of colonization. Mexicans did not speak Spanish until the Spanish colonized the area. 

Heck, a large number of Germans moved to Argentina after World War II, their kids and grand kids are from Argentina.

Just because someone does not fit the stereotype does not mean they are wrong. 

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Davie in his jury speaks video also talks about how the two of them had a connection because they were both "minorites in this game"

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9 hours ago, blackwing said:

If a man acted the way Angelina did I don't think people would be hailing him as a hero.  They'd be treating him like the plague like how Russell Hantz was viewed.

Russell was hardly treated like the plague by the general audience. He won America's Favorite Player twice.

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8 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

Russell was hardly treated like the plague by the general audience. He won America's Favorite Player twice.

In fairness, a good portion of the viewing audience hated Russell in all of his appearences. The people who liked him liked that he made for “good” tv with his ridiculous antics. There is a percentage that actually thought he played a good game and are confused as to how he lost the first two times he played. But I would say that most the people who watched him thought he was an aggressive asshole at best. 

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14 hours ago, blackwing said:

I was pleasantly surprised that this reunion was devoid of the usual filler, apart from the kid predicting the winner. 

Honestly, of all the live filler, this is the most innocuous and probably the least offensive.  And thinking about it, it serves a nice purpose.

IIRC, all the kids that have done the prediction bit have been pre-teen girls (or of similar age).  That's an audience that Survivor is most likely trying to grow and get more involved in applying in future seasons.  They've likely got a pretty sizable pool of male applicants, but want more females for balance.

And in this particular season, I noted that the kid was a young African-American girl.   I'm pretty sure that she was the one selected because of what Davie had said earlier in the show about wanting to encourage more black people to watch and participate in the Survivor community.  Peachy going to her specifically for the prediction was a production decision to make a subtle and unspoken agreement to Davie's statements.

 

Speaking of this segment, I noticed that Peachy commented to the girl as she was making her selection that the first two that did this were correct and "hoped" she continued the streak.  However, I'm almost 100% positive that this whole bit is rigged.  By that, I mean that I think that all the kids in the live audience are asked when they arrive who they think will win among all of the contestants still on the show (the F6 in this case).  So I'm pretty sure there were kids that would have picked Mike or Angelina (or Kara, Allison, and Davie too).  But since TPTB knew Nick had won, they could "randomly choose" a girl for this segment from the list of those that had already named him as the winner.

 

Since this whole prediction bit has no actual bearing on the game, I don't really mind if they are rigging it.  All it does is make a young female fan of Survivor look smart in choosing the winner.   And if that leads to longevity for the show, then I'm for it.

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On 12/24/2018 at 7:32 PM, ProfCrash said:

But I would say that most the people who watched him thought he was an aggressive asshole at best. 

I don't agree tbh. Sure, Russell was always polarizing, but he is 100 times better liked by the general audience than Angelina, while being 1 million times the asshole she ever was.

Edited by peachmangosteen
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On 12/24/2018 at 6:32 PM, ProfCrash said:

In fairness, a good portion of the viewing audience hated Russell in all of his appearences. The people who liked him liked that he made for “good” tv with his ridiculous antics. There is a percentage that actually thought he played a good game and are confused as to how he lost the first two times he played. But I would say that most the people who watched him thought he was an aggressive asshole at best. 

29 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

I don't agree tbh. Sure, Russell was always polarizing, but he is 100 times better liked by the general audience than Angelina, while being 1 million times the asshole she ever was.

I’d say with regard to Russell Hantz, “liked” is an incredibly strong word; “tolerated” might be a little closer to the truth.  IMHO there is little doubt RH is better tolerated, but that’s more in the nature of somewhat-grudging respect for his gameplay than anything else.  

Russell mastered both the physical and strategic aspects of Survivor, but his downfall was the complete and total absence of anything resembling a social game.  Angelina demonstrated a stronger social game, to be sure - primarily because anything is more than nothing - but relative to the other players in her season, Angelina truly mastered none of the Big Three.  

And it’s a prime example of how bad Angelina’s overall gameplay was that y’all have me defending RUSSELL FUCKING HANTZ over it, and I now hate you both.  ;>

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On 12/24/2018 at 7:32 PM, ProfCrash said:

In fairness, a good portion of the viewing audience hated Russell in all of his appearences. The people who liked him liked that he made for “good” tv with his ridiculous antics. There is a percentage that actually thought he played a good game and are confused as to how he lost the first two times he played. But I would say that most the people who watched him thought he was an aggressive asshole at best. 

Also, wining the fan favorite vote is about having a lot of supporters, not a good net favorable rating.  Fans who hate you, probably aren't going to bother to vote for someone else to keep you from winning.  You could 5 times as many fans hate as love you and still win. 

I think I first started watching Survivor regularly during Russell's first season, because of all the hype.  He was a phenomenon, a bad guy, but a shrewd, brutal strategist, and was, in small doses, fun to watch.

Angelina is nowhere near the player Hantz was in his first and to a lesser extent second time.  She was a lot of fun to hate, or maybe just dislike, in a different way.  Russell was the evil mastermind you either wanted to win, or desperately wanted to lose, and there seemed like a real chance he would win.  Angelina was a clueless buffoon, with very little self awareness, a sense of entitlement, and a greatly exaggerated sense of her abilities, who was never a threat to win, who was used by players to advance their own games and taken to FTC as a goat.  

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I don’t even think Angelina realized how self unaware she was until she watched the show. She used the viewers don’t like to watch bold aggressive woman playing Survivor. I don’t think viewers have a problem with that part. It was all of the other hand raising, butting in and offering her two cents and rice talk that rubbed people the wrong way. Even, the other castaways were rolling their eyes during all of it. She claims they all love her which a lot might but it doesn’t mean she isn’t aware how she came/comes off. I never thought of her in the villain role. I thought of her as more obnoxious. That said, I think Probst loved her and will have her back sooner than later. Whether it be a Hero/Villian theme or a Second Chance theme. 

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Please, producers, stop dressing women in the front row in dresses that mean they can't sit naturally without flashing their crotches.  They look so uncomfortable and awkward.

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2 hours ago, Brookside said:

Please, producers, stop dressing women in the front row in dresses that mean they can't sit naturally without flashing their crotches.  They look so uncomfortable and awkward.

You think the producers dress the audience?

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1 hour ago, Fiftyninth said:

You think the producers dress the audience?

I think @Brookside was referring to the contestants, not the audience; Alison and Kara had to sit at some pretty awkward-looking angles relative to the cameras to maintain any degree of modesty.

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1 hour ago, Nashville said:

I think @Brookside was referring to the contestants, not the audience; Alison and Kara had to sit at some pretty awkward-looking angles relative to the cameras to maintain any degree of modesty.

Thanks Nashville, that is what I was referring to.  It's like that cooking show where they had one woman (Courtney?) wear ridiculous high heels when she was highlighted on camera, but there would be an occasional flash of her in the background wearing flats.

Edited by Brookside
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On 12/20/2018 at 12:07 AM, ByaNose said:

And, it was just his Instagram with “Fu*k It” added for extra measure. It’s a shame but if he knew the rules he was dumb for the post.

I wasn't a huge fan of Alec, and that showed what kind of guy he was off the show.

On 12/20/2018 at 5:23 AM, ProfCrash said:

I think Natalie has more of a point then Angelina. The editors could have showed a more well rounded game, they did hint at it, but there were problems with how she played. Every Goliath at that one tribal was like “Natalie is abbrassive”

Natalie: throw all the eggs into boiling water over people's objections.  PET PEEVE #1: people who do the exact opposite of what someone wants, when both points of view are equally valid.

On 12/20/2018 at 1:12 PM, Bryce Lynch said:

How about they do an Exile Island type deal, but make it Angelina's Island...

Or how about a choice.  You can either go to Exile Island, with little or no food and shelter or to Angelina Island, where they feed you and give you shelter, but you have to be with Angelina?

Food is good.  Plus Angelina and I both run cold, and apparently cuddling isn't cheating, so...

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On 12/21/2018 at 9:04 AM, Bryce Lynch said:

Gabby's "double standard" speech was such nonsense.  If a guy wept frequently in front of the tribe, do you think the audience would say, "It's great to see someone with such strong emotions."?  Was Brandon Hantz praised for being emotional, or labeled a nut job?  If anything, women generally get more of a pass if they are overly emotional.  

As for "assertive women being called bossy", bossy men are also resented and often targeted.  Pat was rubbing people the wrong way, and might have been voted off early, if he had not been injured.  Another factor with bossy castaways, is that the bossy males are often instrumental in building a good shelter and getting the camp organized, while a lot of the bossy women tend to bark out order or criticize the way others are doing things, while doing little work and not being very useful. (Yes, I'm talking to you, Natalie).

The bossy, but useful, men often get kept around for a while so their labor can be exploited.  Sometimes, during this period, they tone it down, or their tribe mates get used to them, so they stay longer. 

IIRC, this was an issue with Chrissy a couple seasons ago.  There were those who claimed at the time (and I remember thinking they had a point) that she was considered an iron bitch where a man playing the same way would be an aggressive gamer. I do remember someone being all gosh-wow with Chrissy because "OMG you're a mother!"  And her TH was "yes, but I'm not YOUR mother."

I think this issue exists, although I am not sure it applies to Angelina. But Survivor: HHH would have been the last full season Gabby and the rest would have seen.  So maybe she's transferring?

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3 minutes ago, phlebas said:

IIRC, this was an issue with Chrissy a couple seasons ago.  There were those who claimed at the time (and I remember thinking they had a point) that she was considered an iron bitch where a man playing the same way would be an aggressive gamer. I do remember someone being all gosh-wow with Chrissy because "OMG you're a mother!"  And her TH was "yes, but I'm not YOUR mother."

I think this issue exists, although I am not sure it applies to Angelina. But Survivor: HHH would have been the last full season Gabby and the rest would have seen.  So maybe she's transferring?

I though Chrissy was obnoxious and incredibly arrogant from the start.  That is not a good look for a man or a woman.  Who are all the obnoxious, arrogant, bossy men who win Survivor?  I think bossiness among men might be tolerated a bit more, very early in the game, because those bossy men tend to be good at shelter building, and can help the tribe win challenges.  But, ultimately, those types generally don't do well.  Boston Rob was an exception, but it took him 4 times to win, and he found an alliance of morons who treated him like a cult leader, and the perfect GOAT in Phile as his wingman.   

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Do people really think that Angelina is hated more than Russel Hantz?   I don't believe that for a minute.  Can't prove it so don't present it as some sort of fact just 

because YOU hate Angelina more.  Just say you hate her more and quit speaking for everybody.  

Edited by marys1000
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42 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I though Chrissy was obnoxious and incredibly arrogant from the start.  That is not a good look for a man or a woman.  Who are all the obnoxious, arrogant, bossy men who win Survivor?  I think bossiness among men might be tolerated a bit more, very early in the game, because those bossy men tend to be good at shelter building, and can help the tribe win challenges.  But, ultimately, those types generally don't do well.  Boston Rob was an exception, but it took him 4 times to win, and he found an alliance of morons who treated him like a cult leader, and the perfect GOAT in Phile as his wingman.   

Agreed.  I disliked Chrissy because of her obnoxiousness, aggressiveness, arrogance and condescension.  She seemed like she viewed herself as operating on some kind of higher plane.  She acquired Ryan as a devoted sycophant.  I also remember Chrissy being criticised because she seemed to be specifically targeting women... she didn't want to be allies with women, she wanted to surround herself with men who viewed her as a powerful queen that they were very devoted to.

If there is ever another Second Chances... it'd be interesting to see Chrissy and Natalie, both aggressive and bossy women used to being in charge, on the same tribe.

5 minutes ago, marys1000 said:

Do people really think that Angelina is hated more than Russel Hantz?   I don't believe that for a minute.  Can't prove it so don't present it as some sort of fact just 

because YOU hate Angelina more.  Just say you hate her more and quit speaking for everybody.  

Who is speaking for everybody?  If this is directed at me, since I was the one who first compared her to Russell, I never said that "people" hate Angelina more than Russell.  What I said was that Jeff praised Angelina's game and said that if a man had played the aggressive game she played that she would have been viewed differently by the TV audience.  I disagreed and said that Russell played a very aggressive game and he appears to be generally not very well liked.

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3 hours ago, blackwing said:

What I said was that Jeff praised Angelina's game and said that if a man had played the aggressive game she played that she would have been viewed differently by the TV audience.  I disagreed and said that Russell played a very aggressive game and he appears to be generally not very well liked.

This is a major point that I think is a huge part of this discussion. It's not just that Angelina was pure Angelina about her behavior afterwards, but that Jeff backed her up on it. I never saw a thing that showed her realizing why asking someone for their clothing on a show where everyone is starving and cold (or asking for someone's reward on a show where everyone is hungry) might not be viewed in the best possible light, only "I was trying to be creative and I was in the moment." (an excuse-pology in my book)

And if it ended there, it's just Angelina being Angelina. She'll never see why people were irritated with her, and it's wasting my breath to try.

But then Jeff had to validate her obnoxious, arrogant, entitled behavior with a garbage sexism argument that made absolutely no sense, and suddenly it's "Yeah! Angelina was treated differently because she was a woman." Which wasn't the case at all. It was her tone-deaf way with people. And then she becomes the face of "powerful women," which ... wasn't even her game! She had no power. She was the only woman in a male alliance! She happily voted out Gabby, proclaiming it would be "sick." And then she needed two men to help to find "her" idol, and took the credit for herself.

Before Jeff inserted his two cents, it was just "I like Angelina vs I do not like Angelina." Then Jeff stuck his nose in, and made the argument, "Angelina is a powerful woman, and sorry you don't like powerful women, you sexist." Which ... I like powerful women just fine. I just don't happen to like Angelina, nor do I think Angelina is one of them.

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On ‎12‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 7:17 AM, Bryce Lynch said:

All you Angelina haters are a bunch of misogynists, who can't handle a strong woman.

She climbed 150 feet up an 8 foot ladder (She literally could have died!) to find an idol.

Sure, she needed the help of 2 men, because she lost the clue and was afraid of the 8 foot ladder.  OK, one of those men had a BAC of about 0.25, and found the clue without putting down his wine glass.  But, nothing says "strong woman" like being an incompetent, damsel in distress.

Then, she masterfully used that idol, plus a fake idol, that everyone knew was fake, to turn a routine 3-2 vote in her alliance's favor into a routine 3-0 vote in her alliance's favor.  It was amazing...like making a head first slide, into first base, on a walk.

And, while she doesn't like to mention it, after Jeff rejected what she told him was her low-ball offer (of everything in camp), she "won" rice for the tribe, by agreeing to sit out an immunity challenge, that she DEFINITELY would have won, because it was a puzzle.

That sacrifice threw her off for the rest of the season, as she bombed in all the later puzzle challenges, obviously because sitting out for the rice messed up her puzzle rhythm.

This will never get old.  

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That's what really sucks about Jeff's argument; it allows everyone to pretend the thought that men get treated differently than women in this game is ridiculous since it doesn't at all apply to the Angelina situation.

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On 12/27/2018 at 1:18 PM, Eolivet said:

Before Jeff inserted his two cents, it was just "I like Angelina vs I do not like Angelina." Then Jeff stuck his nose in, and made the argument, "Angelina is a powerful woman, and sorry you don't like powerful women, you sexist." Which ... I like powerful women just fine. I just don't happen to like Angelina, nor do I think Angelina is one of them.

Sorry, Peachy, but I’m a great big fan of logic - and your fallacious attempt at a preemptive ad hominem attack simply doesn’t cut any ice with me.

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