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Avengers: Endgame (2019)

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Well, you could have also have him retire in THIS timeline. Or you could have him ending up in the past being a f... accident.

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1 hour ago, swanpride said:

Well, you could have also have him retire in THIS timeline. Or you could have him ending up in the past being a f... accident.

And there is the ultimate disagreement Steve ended up stuck in the ice and in the future by accident 

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6 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

 I do not have a problem with the idea of Cap and Peggy getting that dance and figuring out a way to have a life together in another timeline.  I have problems with the execution. The writers should have been placing breadcrumbs about this ending in Infinity War.  They did not have to dust Bucky.  We could have had 5 years of Steve and Bucky getting the chance to be friends again (it would have happened off camera, but it would have happened).  Even if he still was dusted, we still should have gotten the heavily implied scene where Steve and Bucky say goodbye.  

Quite apart from using Bucky as nothing but a source of angst for Steve (something I'll always be pissed about, but don't want to get into again here) they could easily have cleaned up the execution of Steve's ending:

Alter the explanation of the timelines to allow for variations in the multiverse theory. Bruce or Tony could briefly explain that there are some timelines that differ wildly and some only slightly. So then they could have Steve say, 'find a timeline where I didn't survive the plane crash' to give him a 'clear run' at Peggy. And I still think the final scene should have been him arriving in the hotel bar where he promised he'd meet Peggy, and seeing her sitting and waiting, just hoping that somehow he'd turn up. The random suburban house was an odd choice, because it related to nothing in either character's mythology.

Then make it explicit that he's just jumped back to this timeline to hand over the shield, instead of trying to muddy the waters. That way, people can imagine whatever they like in that alternate timeline - Steve, Peggy and Howard founded SHIELD, saved Bucky, destroyed Hydra and ushered in a golden age. Or whatever.

I'm sure some people would still cry foul, just as they would for any ending that wasn't their perfect fantasy, but them's just the breaks.

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Honestly, I might have even be able to forgive that kind of ending if it hadn't come of the expense of a proper conclusion to the Winter Soldier/Civil War storyline. We spend two movies watching Cap doing everything to protect Bucky and in the end, there was zero conclusion to ANY of this. Not even in the conservation between Tony and Steve. It is like Bucky basically got erased from the story because he was suddenly inconvenient. And I LIKE Bucky. He deserved better.

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15 minutes ago, swanpride said:

Honestly, I might have even be able to forgive that kind of ending if it hadn't come of the expense of a proper conclusion to the Winter Soldier/Civil War storyline. We spend two movies watching Cap doing everything to protect Bucky and in the end, there was zero conclusion to ANY of this. Not even in the conservation between Tony and Steve. It is like Bucky basically got erased from the story because he was suddenly inconvenient. And I LIKE Bucky. He deserved better.

Bucky ended up as one of the heroes of the universe openly attending Tony Stark's funeral with his main persecutor. That story was closed and now reopened with a Disney + miniseries 

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It doesn't feel closed to me. NOT AT ALL!!!! It feels like it was just shoved aside because the Russos were so happy that they could play around with Ironman, that Cap's story became an inconvenient hassle.

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Having saved Bucky multiple times, what then does Steve now owe him? Is it for Steve to sacrifice his chance at fulfillment and happiness so that the two can hang out together at Avengers HQ until they grow old?

Steve has left Bucky in a good situation as an acknowledged hero. Bucky -- a super soldier with a bionic arm -- can take care of himself. 

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That's the thing: We have no f... idea in what kind of situation Steve left Bucky because the question is NEVER addressed. I supposed it will be in "Falcon and the Winter Soldier" but that doesn't retroactively improve the lack of acknowledgement of ANYTHING Bucky related in Endgame. Or infinity War for that matter, in which they have two vague scenes for Bucky and that is. If not for Sebastian Stan being such a good actor that he makes the most of getting a new arm, there would be nothing for the audience to latch onto.

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45 minutes ago, swanpride said:

That's the thing: We have no f... idea in what kind of situation Steve left Bucky because the question is NEVER addressed. I supposed it will be in "Falcon and the Winter Soldier" but that doesn't retroactively improve the lack of acknowledgement of ANYTHING Bucky related in Endgame. Or infinity War for that matter, in which they have two vague scenes for Bucky and that is. If not for Sebastian Stan being such a good actor that he makes the most of getting a new arm, there would be nothing for the audience to latch onto.

That is also the crux of my issues with the way Steve's story ended in Endgame.  We were lucky we got a meaningful look between Steve and Bucky before Steve leaves.  And honestly, I give the credit to Sebastian for that.  I don't think it ever crossed the Russo's mind that a scene with dialog was needed between the two.  

I am not a Stucky shipper, but I do think that when you have 2 characters, best friends through hell and back, where "I'll be with you til the end of the line" is their catchphrase; that the viewer should see the end of the line.  I don't know why that was not a sticking point in the script for Endgame.  It doesn't have to be a long, dragged out scene, but It needed to be there.  

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I am not a Stucky shipper either...I don't mind Stucky, but I honestly don't see why every single close relationship out there needs to be a romance. The only non-canon pairing I ever shipped is Natasha/Sam and that is mainly because of the one moment in Winter Soldier which just oozes sexual attraction. Plus, I can imagine Natasha doing well with a partner who is used dealing with people who have issues.

And you are totally right!!! We needed an "end of the line" moment in Endgame, just like we needed an "I am Ironman" moment (which just made it into the movie thanks to an editor).

I think that is my main problem with Endgame...it give Tony a perfect conclusion for his story. It just makes sense for him to eventually laying down for the sake of everyone else, creating a legacy he can truly be proud of in Morgan, Peter and the way he will be remembered. It doesn't give a proper conclusion to either Thor or Hulk or Clint, but that doesn't matter because those characters will still be around. But Natasha and Steve won't, and while Bucky still will be, there won't be a proper conclusion without Tony and Steve around. Hence the storylines for them felt particularly empty. Their stories felt like an afterthoughts compared to Tony's or even Thor's story. That is why their ending bothers me. It feels like something is missing there.

 

 

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This is probably a discussion that is going to going on ad infinitum. I don’t really have a problem with the ending of Steve story but the way it was done was extremely unsatisfying. It felt tacked on when there were so many ways to give the exact same ending and make it fit the narrative more. 

I think I’ve posted it before but my wish is that Bucky was alive throughout Endgame. If Bucky was the one encouraging Steve to get a life I wouldn’t have a problem with the ending. Even showing Steve and Bucky’s conversation about Steve going back into time would have been a huge improvement. My problem isn’t the ending but that Steve’s narrative was short changed for one shot of him sitting on a bench in old man makeup. 

3 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I am not a Stucky shipper, but I do think that when you have 2 characters, best friends through hell and back, where "I'll be with you til the end of the line" is their catchphrase; that the viewer should see the end of the line.  I don't know why that was not a sticking point in the script for Endgame.  It doesn't have to be a long, dragged out scene, but It needed to be there.  

 

3 hours ago, swanpride said:

And you are totally right!!! We needed an "end of the line" moment in Endgame, just like we needed an "I am Ironman" moment (which just made it into the movie thanks to an editor).

Or exactly what you two said. I really should have finished reading the thread before I started posting. 

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3 hours ago, Dani said:

I think I’ve posted it before but my wish is that Bucky was alive throughout Endgame. If Bucky was the one encouraging Steve to get a life I wouldn’t have a problem with the ending. Even showing Steve and Bucky’s conversation about Steve going back into time would have been a huge improvement. My problem isn’t the ending but that Steve’s narrative was short changed for one shot of him sitting on a bench in old man makeup.

The problem, as lots of people have said, is that Bucky has never really been a character outside of what he means/meant to Steve. Because people have been telling Steve to get a life all along - Natasha, Sam, even Tony, and he always made excuses about why he couldn't. What it came down to (IMO) is that he was trapped by the glossy, glittering image of Captain America, the hero who sacrificed himself to save countless others. Waking up in the present, with the era he was born in long past, he was largely left with only the image and not as much of his real self. I'm not even sure he had a real idea of who he was for a long time, since it's Sam who asks the direct question, What makes you happy? only to get no answer. With that as a baseline, small wonder that he should return to a woman he might have been happy with, if they'd only had the time to know where the relationship could lead.

What I find particularly annoying, and this is nothing to do with anything but my own contrariness, is how many people act as if Bucky will have no support system or friends going forward, that with Steve no longer there he'll be as he's always been; a cipher who just barely exists outside as a source of angst and/or conflict for other characters. As @clack posted upthread, Barnes has the programming out of his head, a few close friends, and his freedom. All things considered, his future's pretty bright.

Edited by Cobalt Stargazer
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3 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

What I find particularly annoying, and this is nothing to do with anything but my own contrariness, is how many people act as if Bucky will have no support system or friends going forward, that with Steve no longer there he'll be as he's always been; a cipher who just barely exists outside as a source of angst and/or conflict for other characters. As @clack posted upthread, Barnes has the programming out of his head, a few close friends, and his freedom. All things considered, his future's pretty bright.

Bucky never had Steve as a support system in the comics either. Steve broke his programming and Bucky went on the run. Steve tried to find him, but then Civil War happened and Bucky stayed underground, doing some stuff for Nick Fury and avoiding Steve.

It was Steve being 'killed' that brought Bucky out, as he decided to steal Steve's shield from Tony, and later attempted to kill Tony. That led to him meeting Natasha again, and then to working with Sam and Sharon Carter. It was Sam and Nat, in particular, who helped him readjust to the modern world.

In the movies, he doesn't have Nat but he does have a sort of friendship with Shuri and mutual respect with T'Challa, and there are the other characters around him who have lost people - We see him standing with Sam and Wanda at Tony's funeral - He's a tough, resourceful guy, so I never got why people wanted to see him as some desperate woobie who needed Steve's shoulder to lean on. I guess it's partly down to the post-Winter Soldier writing of him as incredibly passive, and of Steve as constantly trying to save him.

Edited by Danny Franks
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Honestly, I think I would have been happy, or at least happier with one scene more. Like, show Steve and Bucky talking to each other before Steve goes on the platform, clear up where Bucky stands in all this (you could even have Bucky basically saying that HE wishes that Steve would finally lay down the shield and experience the kind of peace Bucky did with his goats) and then have Steve go to the past, in reaction to Bucky telling him "maybe it is your time to be selfish". You could maybe THAN have a scene in which Cap gives Falcon the (still broken) shield, and vanish in the time stream, having the suggestion hanging around that he went to Peggy, but not truly specifying it. This way you have a conclusion for Cap's story, everyone can imagine whatever they want, and you don't confuse the audience by undermining the previous established rules for time-travel.    

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Steve's fate has to be unambiguous, not only to satisfy the moviegoing audience, but also the other superheroes, who otherwise would always be looking to mount a rescue mission in order to find him. 

It's either Peggy or death.

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Bucky is such a non-entity character that I've never understood the support he's garnered. He really has no personality or arc outside of being Steve's friend from the past. Other sidekicks have 10x more personality than him. Even Groot is a better established character than him. Steve's absence is probably the greatest thing that could happen to Bucky from a characterization standpoint because it means he'll finally get a storyline of his own independent of Steve. In that way he's a lot luckier than pretty much any other sidekick to a superhero since he's getting his own show alongside Sam.

14 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

how many people act as if Bucky will have no support system or friends going forward, that with Steve no longer there he'll be as he's always been; a cipher who just barely exists outside as a source of angst and/or conflict for other characters.

Exactly. At the very least Bucky has the support of Sam, Shuri and T'Challa. Not to mention others like Rhodey and Wanda (depending on how her show goes). I'm sure he'll get Sharon on his side too in the tv show. Bucky's starting out with a lot more friendly support than Steve did after getting out of the ice. And now he can finally gain some personality.

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Two words: Sebastian Stan. He puts more character into one look than other actors do into a whole dialogue.  And then adds even more during his interviews...remember his "backpack of sadness"?

And really, how can one NOT like Bucky? He is all the goodness of Steve, but without the desire to step up in the first place, he just does it. And suffers decades for it. Because he couldn't let Steve go to war alone.

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6 hours ago, swanpride said:

And really, how can one NOT like Bucky? He is all the goodness of Steve, but without the desire to step up in the first place, he just does it. And suffers decades for it. Because he couldn't let Steve go to war alone.

How can anyone LIKE Bucky? He's a human McGuffin. I'll never understand the Bucky obsession, he has no personality. He was very nice to Steve in TFA and has had 5 lines of dialogue since. Doctor Strange's cloak has more screen presence.

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44 minutes ago, JessePinkman said:

How can anyone LIKE Bucky? He's a human McGuffin. I'll never understand the Bucky obsession, he has no personality. He was very nice to Steve in TFA and has had 5 lines of dialogue since. Doctor Strange's cloak has more screen presence.

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I really liked what Stan did with Bucky in the first movie, and my love of the character is largely based on that. But he's had about three minutes of character development in all the movies since then, all of it in service to Steve's story rather than his own.

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The moment I fell in love with Bucky is when he tries to hit on Peggy and she totally ignores him in favour of Steve. Most other guys would have had a really hard time to deal with the fact that the small guy they used to look out for is now the most attractive and more popular one. But not Bucky. He is all "oh, well, Steve deserves it" and readily falls back into his shadow.

That's the thing, there aren't many meaningful Bucky moments, but Sebastian Stan makes the most out of all of them. When Bucky visits the museum and looks at the display about himself and they zoom in on his face, my heard just goes out to him!

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On 1/13/2020 at 12:10 AM, JessePinkman said:

How can anyone LIKE Bucky? He's a human McGuffin. I'll never understand the Bucky obsession, he has no personality. He was very nice to Steve in TFA and has had 5 lines of dialogue since. Doctor Strange's cloak has more screen presence.

I like Bucky because he's a great character in the comics. One of the best 'new' characters that Marvel have created in the last twenty years. His story is compelling and was told really well by Ed Brubaker.

Sadly, we only ever got the smallest glimpses of that in the MCU. Stan does the best with his material, but it's really fucking thin, and in the last two Avengers movies, he might as well have just been CGI'd into the background, rather than being asked to put on the Bucky costume just to silently pretend to fire a gun at CGI monsters.

Edited by Danny Franks
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On 1/12/2020 at 9:47 AM, clack said:

Steve's fate has to be unambiguous, not only to satisfy the moviegoing audience, but also the other superheroes, who otherwise would always be looking to mount a rescue mission in order to find him. 

It's either Peggy or death.

Why is retirement not an option? 

On 1/13/2020 at 11:02 AM, Danny Franks said:

I like Bucky because he's a great character in the comics. One of the best 'new' characters that Marvel have created in the last twenty years. His story is compelling and was told really well by Ed Brubaker.

Sadly, we only ever got the smallest glimpses of that in the MCU. Stan does the best with his material, but it's really fucking thin, and in the last two Avengers movies, he might as well have just been CGI'd into the background, rather than being asked to put on the Bucky costume just to silently pretend to fire a gun at CGI monsters.

Forever salty about how overlooked he is in those films.

Pretty salty about the last two films in general. They had forever and a day to formulate a solid plot, fill in any plot-holes, and really stick the landing. It was all so messy and uncoordinated in the end. Not at all the quality stuff I was expecting them to deliver. Makes me sad. 

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7 hours ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

Why is retirement not an option?

Because they'd covered that.

"Captain America. God's righteous man. Pretending you could live without a war. I can't actually throw up in my mouth, but I would if I could."

"Banner and I were doing research."
"That would affect the team."
"That would end the team. Isn't that the mission? Isn't that the 'why' we fight, so we can end the fight, so that we get to go home?"

Whatever anyone thinks of AoU as a movie, Steve (and everyone else) being justifiably P.O.'ed at Tony overshadows the fact that Steve really couldn't live without a war, without some sort of earth-saving conflict. Cap deflects in the scene with Tony by saying that solving a problem beforehand doesn't work, but he never addresses Stark's entirely valid point about ending the fight decisively. About even the possibility that they could all go home and put their feet up.

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But exactly because he was unable to truly retire, him staying around and actually managing to do so would be a true character arc. While him being in the past immediately creates the question if Steve spend his life in a permanent hell, not being able to change what he knew would be catastrophic events, or if he actually spend his time reshaping a time-line, despite all the risks.

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I think Steve would have to try to change the bad things he knew were going to happen, no way he would just sit around twiddling his thumbs. He'd save Bucky, try to save Howard and Maria, be instrumental in making sure Hydra didn't infiltrate SHIELD. It still doesn't answer the question of the new timeline's Steve, does he stay in the ice to one day wake up and realize another led his life? That's my biggest problem (in a story full of them) with the way Steve's story went down. In my mind he rescued him too, and helped him to know about the things that were coming and then left to help out somewhere else he was needed. That's the only way I can still love Steve.

I do feel like Steve's ending wasn't given the same thought as Tony's. Tony's story made sense to me and did not leave me with that WTF feeling at the end. Whereas with Steve it's like, how can we get him off the board, and it just seems sloppy to me.

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A retired Steve, still in the present day, wouldn't work. What happens when the Avengers next face a crisis that threatens the world? 

Even if the super-soldier serum was somehow reversed and Steve reverted to his old physique, the audience would still expect him to show up in an emergency to provide tactical command.

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Naturally it would work. Pretty much every crisis in the MCU is so pressing in terms of time that only the Avengers conveniently around are able to deal with it anyway.

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There's a difference between not being around for a particular crisis, and never being available, ever again, and that absence having to be explained in the dialogue each time. 

Anyway, Steve's ultimate timestream fate strikes me as one of the lesser paradoxes/plot holes in Endgame.

More obvious ones would be : why can't Siri reverse engineer Steve or Bucky's super soldier serum and apply it to the Wakandan warriors? The serum is technology from 1940, for god's sake.

And why do only Bruce, War Machine, and Peter get the super suits? Why aren't  Natasha or Falcon trained in the use of Tony's Iron Man suits?

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I think it's pretty clear on that last that Tony only customized Iron Man™ armors for the people closest to him/that he cared about the most: Pepper, Rhodey, and Peter. I don't think Bruce developed quite that level of closeness with him, but he had the advantage of being a fellow genius and helping design the Hulkbuster armor.

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3 hours ago, clack said:

There's a difference between not being around for a particular crisis, and never being available, ever again, and that absence having to be explained in the dialogue

How is that different with old Steve though? He's probably still stronger than any non powered person,  and a brilliant tactical mind if nothing else. 

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22 hours ago, clack said:

A retired Steve, still in the present day, wouldn't work. What happens when the Avengers next face a crisis that threatens the world? 

Even if the super-soldier serum was somehow reversed and Steve reverted to his old physique, the audience would still expect him to show up in an emergency to provide tactical command.

The world has just doubled in terms of it's population, of living things. That's enough to keep Steve busy, for like the next series of TFATWS. And at least two films, since most of the time, the films crisis is over in  matter of a few days. Honestly.  It's really not that hard 

Edited by Cirien

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22 hours ago, swanpride said:

Naturally it would work. Pretty much every crisis in the MCU is so pressing in terms of time that only the Avengers conveniently around are able to deal with it anyway.

I think it has to do with the tight grip of control. When it was decided that only what Feige says about a character counts but you only had enough screen time for the limited amount of  Avengers. Even with TV producers and broadcasters willing to produce more like additional comic book artist and writers can build on the stories of an existing book without the cost a major movie needs to be done. There being no other unaccounted for "enhanced (MCU movies)" people to do their thing. No powered (Netflix in New York), wild Inhumans (Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.), Runaway teens in LA or New Orleans or anywhere else to contend with.

However judging from Sony's latest Morbius trailers  the deal to keep the use of Peter Parker Spider-Man might have people watching a Sony movie making the same complaint about one sided tie ins as have been made about Marvel's Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.  for all these years.

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Sony should simply keep their hands out of the MCU, period. They should focus on animation and experimenting with stand along movies. It's not like there isn't a market for a Spider-Gwen movie,

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Of course Sony will just counter that the MCU should keep its hands off of their Spider-Man 

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So I rewatched this yesterday and something confuses me. At the end, it’s in the Five Years Later, right? Because Morgan is at her dad’s funeral. And Spider-Man: Far from Home takes place right after this movie. Haven’t seen the latter, but shouldn’t Peter be in college by now? Or do I need to hand wave the timey-whimey nonsense?

And I still hate the last five minutes, and I HATE the Russos for including that RATBASTARDDOUCHETASTICFUCKTOIDPRICK Ross at Tony’s funeral. Hell, for including him in this universe, considering how he’s persecuted Bruce for YEARS.🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬

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7 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

So I rewatched this yesterday and something confuses me. At the end, it’s in the Five Years Later, right? Because Morgan is at her dad’s funeral. And Spider-Man: Far from Home takes place right after this movie. Haven’t seen the latter, but shouldn’t Peter be in college by now? Or do I need to hand wave the timey-whimey nonsense?

Peter was dead for five years. He didn't age in that time, and certainly didn't keep up with his studies. So he's back in high school.

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3 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

So I rewatched this yesterday and something confuses me. At the end, it’s in the Five Years Later, right? Because Morgan is at her dad’s funeral. And Spider-Man: Far from Home takes place right after this movie. Haven’t seen the latter, but shouldn’t Peter be in college by now? Or do I need to hand wave the timey-whimey nonsense?

And I still hate the last five minutes, and I HATE the Russos for including that RATBASTARDDOUCHETASTICFUCKTOIDPRICK Ross at Tony’s funeral. Hell, for including him in this universe, considering how he’s persecuted Bruce for YEARS.🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬

Peter was among the folks who were snapture and returned. Spider-Man Far From Home gives those people a new name.

Spoiler

Basically  they the "blipped"  are treated like it was a 5 year long leap day. Even if their birth certificate date made them adults there is a global amendment and they have to wait an additional 5 years to receive their majority. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Anduin said:

Peter was dead for five years. He didn't age in that time, and certainly didn't keep up with his studies. So he's back in high school.

But I thought the snap brought everyone back from the time they were snapped and the next five years no changes were made? 

2 minutes ago, Raja said:

Peter was among the folks who were snapture and returned. Spider-Man Far From Home gives those people a new name.

  Hide contents

Basically  they the "blipped"  are treated like it was a 5 year long leap day. Even if their birth certificate date made them adults there is a global amendment and they have to wait an additional 5 years to receive their majority. 

 

Okay, thanks. I guess that makes sense even if it doesn’t.

Sigh...

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Not everybody in Peter's school got dusted, so there's one boy who was a weeby freshman when the snap happened, who's now a hunk that all of the girls are after, and Peter is jealous.

 

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5 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

But I thought the snap brought everyone back from the time they were snapped and the next five years no changes were made? 

They were brought back to the present, for them it's like they suddenly time traveled forward 5 years in time. 

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52 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

They were brought back to the present, for them it's like they suddenly time traveled forward 5 years in time. 

An interesting story would be to have them age in the missing years. One moment you're turning to dust, the next you're five years older. Turns out you were dead! That would really mess a person up. Though I can't see it as a story to be told in the MCU, except maybe as a villain origin.

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Honestly, the whole thing is already traumatic enough as it is. imagine you are twins and suddenly your twin is older than you. Imagine your little brother is suddenly your big brother. Imagine your weren't snapped, but your parents were, and now they are suddenly back, or you come back to parents who were grieving over you the whole time. Imagine only one parent was snapped and the other moved on. Imagine you come back and one or both parents died in the meantime.

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8 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And I still hate the last five minutes, and I HATE the Russos for including that RATBASTARDDOUCHETASTICFUCKTOIDPRICK Ross at Tony’s funeral. Hell, for including him in this universe, considering how he’s persecuted Bruce for YEARS.🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬

The ONLY thing that would redeem the Black Widow movie in my eyes if there's a point (since it takes place during the CW fallout) is if Nat has a brief run in with Ross and his men where she proceeds to beat up all of them, capping it off with a coup de Grace of kicking Ross in the balls and spitting, "That was for Bruce!" But I've been burned too many times waiting for him to get any kind of comeuppance so I know it's probably not gonna happen.

Edited by Spartan Girl
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8 hours ago, Silver Raven said:

Not everybody in Peter's school got dusted, so there's one boy who was a weeby freshman when the snap happened, who's now a hunk that all of the girls are after, and Peter is jealous.

 

Even that's messed up. If he was a Freshman when the dusting happened, and five years have passed, he should now be a freshman in college! Unless he was a remedial and was kept back one year.

It's SO OBVIOUS whoever wrote the last two movies were smoking some serious Crack or just didn't give a fuck if anything made sense or not.

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

The ONLY thing that would redeem the Black Widow movie in my eyes if there's a point (since it takes place during the CW fallout) is if Nat has a brief run in with Ross and his men where she proceeds to beat up all of them, capping it off with a coup de Grace of kicking Ross in the balls and spitting, "That was for Bruce!" But I've been burned too many times waiting for him to get any kind of comeuppance so I know it's probably not gonna happen.

Never happen.

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3 hours ago, swanpride said:

Honestly, the whole thing is already traumatic enough as it is. imagine you are twins and suddenly your twin is older than you. Imagine your little brother is suddenly your big brother. Imagine your weren't snapped, but your parents were, and now they are suddenly back, or you come back to parents who were grieving over you the whole time. Imagine only one parent was snapped and the other moved on. Imagine you come back and one or both parents died in the meantime.

Those types of issues were left to Far From Home and basically treated as a big cosmic joke played on those snapped. Maybe later movies will revisit the concept. As it played out I would say the biggest victims of Thanos were those who survived his snap.

Especially if you believe the feel good  commentary by the creators and the collateral damage deaths caused by missing pilots, drivers etc were also brought back somehow by Professor Hulk's snap.

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3 hours ago, swanpride said:

Honestly, the whole thing is already traumatic enough as it is. imagine you are twins and suddenly your twin is older than you. Imagine your little brother is suddenly your big brother. Imagine your weren't snapped, but your parents were, and now they are suddenly back, or you come back to parents who were grieving over you the whole time. Imagine only one parent was snapped and the other moved on. Imagine you come back and one or both parents died in the meantime.

Yeah, there's plenty of fodder for messed-up stories in the aftermath of resurrection.

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