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Avengers: Endgame (2019)

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I was gonna post non-spoilery, but I see this is definitely a spoiler zone. So here goes with my reactions:

Let me start by saying I thought this was truly excellent.  95 out of a 100.  I'd say Spider-Man: Homecoming still edges this out slightly as my favorite Marvel film, but only because it's a simpler film, and thus had less places to go wrong. This film had a zillion ways to go wrong and only a few where it did.  So... here are the few issues I had with it:

1.) I thought the ending (and thus the whole film) was about one scene too long. I'm not sure which of those post-fight end scenes I'd have cut, but it hurt the pacing at the very end, I think we're all familiar with big franchises coming to an end where they have too many end scenes, and this did. But I will admit, only barely,  It just needed to be a TAD shorter in that post-fight stuff.  A hair at most.

2.) The WAY this was resolved was too paradoxical. I was just going to post that even if I went non-spoliery, but I have more specific thoughts about it I will address, since I'm doing the spoiler thing now.  There's one major conceits of the resolution which ONLY work if you fanwank REALLY hard--and it certainly wasn't explained in the film.  And there's a second conceit of the resolution which totally violates the rules they set which WERE clear,

The first major conceit with issues is that we were given contradictory mumbo-jumbo about how and when time can be changed, and how timelines worked.  Think of the things PERMANENTLY removed now from the past:  Nebula, Gamora, Thanos, and all their soldiers specifically.  I was also going to include Thor's Hammer, but since we DID see Cap bring that back in  time, that part we CAN wank as him having returned it.  But not the missing PEOPLE who died forward in time.  That could all be wanked if we say that this created a split in the timeline. But if that is true, why would it matter if the stones ever went back?  And since Cap DID go back and come forward the hard way, how could it be an alternate Timeline? None of it makes sense once you start considering it all. Possible the only wank possible to cover it would be if Tony's final snap didn't really dust them, but instead put them back in time AND erased their memories.  But then how is Nebula ver. 1 included?  She didn't die of dusting.  She died before that.  Opening yet ANOTHER more classic paradox. How does Nebula ver. 2 STILL EXIST?

The other confusing conceit is more subtle.  How did Professor Hulk use the gauntlet?  Their OWN rules say he shouldn't have been able to.   What do I mean?  I mean the Soul Stone would have stood in his way. Having physical possession of it doesn't allow you to use it. Like Thanos did, you have to sacrifice.  He didn't. So how did he harness it?  It breaks their own rules.

TONY could use it.  Why?  Because he did sacrifice.  Not himself. That wasn't the sacrifice. The sacrifice was his future with his family.  Gone. Poof. So he COULD use it. But Hulk?  Not so much.

3.) We all knew Spider-Man would walk away from this. Few people were deluding themselves that Far From Home was set before this.  But I will say that there's a HUGE issue with his reset.   Namely that it seems seamless.  We are told five years passed and the people gone were brought forward.  But not just from the bits we saw here, but also from previews from Far From Home, it looks like all of Peter's supporting cast is intact.  THE SAME AGE. Think about it. If half the people went dust, isn't it a ludicrous imbalance that none of those individuals are now five years older?

4.) The female power moment.  This is likely causing tons of trolling and whining through the whole Internet.  A shame.

My issue is not with that moment. It's the lack of proper setup for it. It almost came off like a scene before it was cut. It came off as super-arbitrary that that collection of characters--all women--came together at that moment like that.  I bet it wasn't originally. I bet there was a cut scene with them coming together for a reason. Now, in it's cut down state, it seems ludicrous and almost like bait for people to scream about how artificial it was.  In other words... great scene, with a BAD, no... a HORRIBLE lack of setup for it.

5.) A nitpick. The bit where Wasp says "Got it Cap" (or was it "We're on it Cap?"--I dunno) was another moment which came off feeling weird and artificial.  We clearly missed Wasp being introduced to Cap. Or if not introduced, at least a moment where she reveals she's fangirling and always wanted to say something like that.

Now onto the stuff I loved.

6.) I see a few folks had issue with Cap's fate. I did not. I thought it was perfect. I'd even say that I don't think anything we ever heard about Peggy's life contradicts it. Then again, my memories of what Old Dying Peggy said are a bit vague.  I did love the absolute sense of closure from it. In my opinion, those last two scenes are the finest that the Russos, maybe all of Marvel, has ever put to film.

7.) I loved Thor's resolution. In fact, I loved every last bit of Thor in this film. Even the whining emo stuff. It was hilarious and yet in a way sad too.  And it really gave a purpose for Rocket in this film too.  If Rocket wasn't already a favorite of some people before this, I'm sure this made him one for most of them.

8.) I'm okay with Stark's death.  It was well earned dramatically. I have mixed feeling on Black Widow's death.  I am going to predict that the Internet is already buzzing with feelings that technically what happened to her was "fridging".  For those who don't know, that's the death of a female character done purely to advance the plot of a male character (in this case, Hawkeye).  

Undeniably, she literally died to advance his plot. But I'd argue that this is one of the few times that this kind of resolution is NOT fridging.  The key is the word "purely".  She didn't die exclusively to advance his plot, even though that later did also happen.  This was more like the fate of Steve Trevor in Wonder Woman.  She died for something larger. Inside the story, she died to save him. Outside the story, from our perspective, she died because of an older more established storytelling trope about sacrifice. One that doesn't diminish the character, like fridging does, but elevates them.  Her death wasn't a pity or a tragedy, it was noble.  And dramatically it had another purpose. They clearly wanted a shock for the audience. Most went in expecting Tony, Steve and possibly Thor to die.  Also likely Nebula. But Black Widow was on very few people's Death Radar. And probably none since a Black Widow movie has been talked about.  Now mind you, they may not have been lying about that movie. It could still happen, set in her past.  Or it could be another Black Widow. What a lot of casual fans won't know is that there mere multiple characters with that name in Marvel Comics.

In the end I think her death was a good call for the script, even if some nonsense surrounding it might result.

9.) Scarlet Witch was given a power/dramatic update which totally worked.  This was a more subtle thing than the "Female Avengers Assemble" moment I spoke about before and how unsubtle and artificial it seemed. Scarlet Witch being shown as a badass almost able to single-handedly beat Thanos, when she was properly motivated, was well and properly done.  I can applaud it. I'm still to this day confused about where her accent went.... but otherwise I'm happy how things have gone for the character.

One final thing. Talking about Paradoxes... didn't they leave us hanging with Loki?  This is not how things were supposed to go with him.  We can dismiss Cap fighting himself and kicking his own ass, but the Loki thing bothers me.  Did I miss something with this?

Edited by Kromm
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11 minutes ago, Kromm said:

The other confusing conceit is more subtle.  How did Professor Hulk use the gauntlet?  Their OWN rules say he shouldn't have been able to.   What do I mean?  I mean the Soul Stone would have stood in his way. Having physical possession of it doesn't allow you to use it. Like Thanos did, you have to sacrifice.  He didn't. So how did he harness it?  It breaks their own rules.

TONY could use it.  Why?  Because he did sacrifice.  Not himself. That wasn't the sacrifice. The sacrifice was his future with his family.  Gone. Poof. So he COULD use it. But Hulk?  Not so much.

Hulk could only partially use the gauntlet though, he even said he tried to bring Natasha back and couldn't and I think that's because the Soul stone couldn't kill him, which is consistent with what you're saying.

Tony could use it because it could kill him (and thus, he gave up his future with his family, so he gave up that which he most loved).  Maybe if Clint had tried to use it, he could have without dying because he had already made his sacrifice: Natasha.  

15 minutes ago, Kromm said:

One final thing. Talking about Paradoxes... didn't they leave us hanging with Loki?  This is not how things were supposed to go with him.  We can dismiss Cap fighting himself and kicking his own ass, but the Loki thing bothers me.  Did I miss something with this?

I think that was mainly just to make sure everyone realizes that we are now officially in the MultiVerse. 

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There's a lot of speculation that Nat and 'our" Gamora are stuck in the Soul Stone and they'll be freed in the next (As?)Guardians movie since Guardians 2 pretty heavily implied Adam Warlock would be involved.

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1 minute ago, Wynterwolf said:

Hulk could only partially use the gauntlet though, he even said he tried to bring Natasha back and couldn't and I think that's because the Soul stone couldn't kill him, which is consistent with what you're saying.

Tony could use it because it could kill him (and thus, he gave up his future with his family, so he gave up that which he most loved).  Maybe if Clint had tried to use it, he could have without dying because he had already made his sacrifice: Natasha.  

Good try at a theory, but I gotta say "nah"   LOL

Hulk DID use it. He undid the Snappening.  

The reason he couldn't bring Natasha back is because she was "dead dead" (as they said in the film about another character).  This is also what creates the bullshit unsolvable paradox with Nebula.  Nebula v1 was also "dead dead" before Tony snapped all of Thanos' forces gone--so even if Tony returned them to the past and wiped their memories, under these rules he couldn't have done this with Nebula v1.

Paradox city.  We can't just wank it as a parallel timeline being created because Cap goes into that past and ages up into this present.  But that past CAN'T exist without Nebula (split into two versions with the older version dying before being able to "create" the second version by aging), Gamora (left in her own future), Thonos (dead, or knowing too much about his own future), etc.  Again, Cap aging forward in combination with Nebula's fate?  Paradox city.

To be clear, under the rules they laid out Tony wouldn't be able to bring Natasha back either. Nobody could. The only way to get her back would be to snatch her from the past.. and look how contradictory a scenario had to be setup for that to happen with Gamora--who's a weird inverse of Nebula here with this. If Nebula v2 couldn't possibly exist with Nebula v1 dying, then a good part of what we've seen happen in several films wouldn't have happened with Gamora missing a big part of her past and now existing in the future. Again, maybe in an alternate future, except for the confusing way Old Cap was able to show up in it. I get headaches just thinking about it.

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1 minute ago, Kromm said:

Hulk DID use it. He undid the Snappening.  

Duh!  You're right.  Yeah... I think I'm gonna leave those worms where they are.  I got enough that are already wiggling around in my head!!  🤣

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I know I should stop thinking about it but I can’t help imagining the thought process in involved with the team planning for the time heist. 

-Okay there are three stones at once in New York. Three stones means that needs to be the biggest team. Ant-Man is a thief who can shrink so he would be useful there. Hulk is big and green but there’s already a Hulk there so I’m sure no one will notice. Cap can just pretend to be past Cap and Tony can just wear a disguise.  I’m sure no one in Stark Tower will recognize him. 

- The Reality stone is on Asgard so obviously Thor goes there and Rocket can go with him. 

-Quill found the Power stone on a deserted planet and we should get there not long before him and wait for him. After all I’m sure that it would be pointless to get there earlier and try and find it on our own. Nebula is in her element there so she’ll be on that team. Rocket is going with Thor so I guess Rhodey can join her.

- That leaves the Soul Stone. All we know about that one is that Thanos took Gamora there but only Thanos returned. I’m sure that Natasha and Clint can handle that. Yeah, they don’t have any super powers or a specialized suit but I’m sure they can handle it. 

13 minutes ago, Kromm said:

Paradox city.  We can't just wank it as a parallel timeline being created because Cap goes into that past and ages up into this present.  But that past CAN'T exist without Nebula (split into two versions with the older version dying before being able to "create" the second version by aging), Gamora (left in her own future), Thonos (dead, or knowing too much about his own future), etc.  Again, Cap aging forward in combination with Nebula's fate?  Paradox city.

New movie title. Avengers: Paradox City

Edited by Dani
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For reasons that are already articulated better here, I'm pretty upset about Tony's death. I also didn't enjoy the 'fat Thor' thing because of how it played his genuine grief for laughs. I don't really trust them to write Thor better in future movies and never really cared for the Guardians. Since Thor and Tony were my favorite characters, I think this will be my last MCU movie.

Edited by Jaded Sapphire
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Original Cap wasn't unfrozen until around 2011, so Cap could live with Peggy from the 1940's until 2011 without their being two of him. But he would really have to be set in his ways to let everything play out the way it was supposed to. Which is not something I could see Captain America doing. If the letter thing is canon then that means Steve told Peggy about some things and she also let it happen. Ahhh this is why I don't like to think too hard about time travel.  As much as it's painful to admit I have to go with the Whatever happend, happened mentality. 

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Oh, Snap! ‘Avengers: Endgame’ Crushes $1.2B+ Global & $859M Overseas Record Bows; Pushes MCU Pics WW To $20B

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It all comes down to this: Disney/Marvel’s Avengers: Endgame has obliterated worldwide, overseas and domestic records with an $859M start at the international box office for $1.209B global. It is the first film ever to surpass $1B worldwide in its debut, reaching the milestone in just five days. Within the snap of a weekend, this reckoning with Thanos becomes the No. 18 film on the all-time global charts, leapfrogging Captain America: Civil War and the recent Captain Marvel. Endgame‘s massive bow also puts the collective cume of the 22 MCU films released to date at $19.9B global.

Through Friday, the Anthony and Joe Russo-helmed Endgame had already logged the biggest international and global openings ever. The previous record holder for a worldwide launch was Avengers: Infinity War at $640M and without China in the opening suite. The $859M offshore launch of Endgame even tops that. Endgame is now Marvel and Disney’s 2nd billion-dollar release of 2019 (alongside Captain Marvel), and Marvel’s 8th billion dollar film ever.

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10 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

But wasn't Scott's daughter still five years older?

Yes, and so should half the population be.

And yet I think from what we've seen (in this movie and I bet it will be borne out in Far From Home) SOMEHOW everyone Peter Parker was close too ISN'T going to be.

What are the chances?  

Edited by Kromm
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2 minutes ago, Kromm said:

What are the chances?  

Pretty good!😉 (contrivance is our middle name)

I also keep thinking about where exactly did people reappear, did they reappear exactly where they disappeared?  What happened to the people who were on a plane?

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Just now, Wynterwolf said:

Pretty good!😉 (contrivance is our middle name)

I also keep thinking about where exactly did people reappear, did they reappear exactly where they disappeared?  What happened to the people who were on a plane?

Or even if it was a versatile snap, and put them only where they'd be safe, imagine the aftermath:

"I'm home but my house is now overgrown/a ruin!"
"I'm home but my wife has remarried and someone else is raising my kids!"
"I'm home and my company went out of business, my estate passed to distant relatives who were still alive, and I have nothing now!  I guess I gotta go live on the street now!"
"I'm home and my younger sister is now my older sister!'
"I was in jail on a three year sentence and it's five years later.  Let me out NOW!"

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7 minutes ago, Kromm said:

Yes, and so should half the population be.

And yet I think from what we've seen (in this movie and I bet it will be borne out in Far From Home) SOMEHOW everyone Peter Parker was close too ISN'T going to be.

What are the chances?  

People were saying that Peter and Ned looked confused and were looking around at the people in their school like they didn't recognize them until they saw each other. I'd have to watch it again to see if that's the case. 

I don't know how big Peter's high school is and he only had a few friends, so there was a good chance that the small amount of people he knew got snapped too. 

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5.) A nitpick. The bit where Wasp says "Got it Cap" (or was it "We're on it Cap?"--I dunno) was another moment which came off feeling weird and artificial.  We clearly missed Wasp being introduced to Cap. Or if not introduced, at least a moment where she reveals she's fangirling and always wanted to say something like that.

Kromm, i was under the impression, that this was meant as a wink and a nod to Ant-Man 2, when Hope made fun of Scott for his fangirling of Cap and his willingness to accept his leadership without question. And here she is doing the same. At least that´s how i took it.

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Tony could use it because it could kill him (and thus, he gave up his future with his family, so he gave up that which he most loved).  Maybe if Clint had tried to use it, he could have without dying because he had already made his sacrifice: Natasha.  

That goes to one major problem i had. From how i understood it, you needed to sacrifice what you loved to get the stone. Clint and Natasha both actively fought to not have that happen. They were both willing to die themselves, and Natasha managed to hit the ground first, to put it very flippantly. So Clint suffered an enormous loss, a loss he had tried to prevent by killing himself. I thought you had to give someone up (as Thanos/Gamorra showed, which was about the opposite of how Clint/Nat solved the thing) and live with what you did. For me, Clint didn´t sacrifice Nat, he was unwilling to sacrifice her, but he lost her. That that was enough to win him the stone was confusing to me.

Also, for me the sacrifice did not extend to the use of the stone, it was just the way to procure it. Did I understand that wrong? I mean, Thanos used it a second time when he destroyed the stones, but what did he sacrifice then?

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5 minutes ago, Kromm said:

Or even if it was a versatile snap, and put them only where they'd be safe, imagine the aftermath:

"I'm home but my house is now overgrown/a ruin!"
"I'm home but my wife has remarried and someone else is raising my kids!"
"I'm home and my company went out of business, my estate passed to distant relatives who were still alive, and I have nothing now!  I guess I gotta go live on the street now!"
"I'm home and my younger sister is now my older sister!'
"I was in jail on a three year sentence and it's five years later.  Let me out NOW!"

A show called the 4400 dealt with some of those issues. I doubt the MCU wants too. 

I think the Soul Stone just requires a sacrifice. Nat sacrificed herself so the stone went to the other person that was with her. Or the stone just needs soul in it to work and it made up the whole sacrifice the one you love thing to make it harder for people to get.  I also think the sacrifice is just to get the stone, once you have it anyone can use it. 

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Just now, Sakura12 said:

People were saying that Peter and Ned looked confused and were looking around at the people in their school like they didn't recognize them until they saw each other. I'd have to watch it again to see if that's the case. 

I don't know how big Peter's high school is and he only had a few friends, so there was a good chance that the small amount of people he knew got snapped too. 

At the very least we know the following people in Peter's life didn't age--from Far From Home previews:

--Ned
--MJ
--Flash
--PROBABLY Aunt May (she doesn't really look any older)

The guy at Peter's local corner store looks the same too (and he still HAS the store in Far From Home--which seems awfully convenient if it's five years later given how changed NY appears to be five years on).

Now it could be that Far From Home really IS set before both of these last two Avengers movies. And yet my gut says they're not doing that.

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Just now, Kromm said:

Now it could be that Far From Home really IS set before both of these last two Avengers movies. And yet my gut says they're not doing that.

They've specifically stated that it takes place directly after Endgame.  

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14 minutes ago, Kromm said:

Yes, and so should half the population be.

And yet I think from what we've seen (in this movie and I bet it will be borne out in Far From Home) SOMEHOW everyone Peter Parker was close too ISN'T going to be.

What are the chances?  

Hey Clint lost his wife and 3 kids while Tony did not lose Pepper, Happy or Rhodey so anything is possible in this world.  And to be honest, Morgan appeared to me as older than 4.  If Pepper was not pregnant before the snap , then she got pregnant very quickly after.

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6 minutes ago, loosy said:

Also, for me the sacrifice did not extend to the use of the stone, it was just the way to procure it. Did I understand that wrong? I mean, Thanos used it a second time when he destroyed the stones, but what did he sacrifice then?

To me it wasn't about being able to use the stone each time. It was about being able to control it.

So only one sacrifice needed, but also it means you can't just pick the thing up and use it, because there's some mystical component to it.

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2 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Hey Clint lost his wife and 3 kids while Tony did not lose Pepper, Happy or Rhodey so anything is possible in this world.  And to be honest, Morgan appeared to me as older than 4.  If Pepper was not pregnant before the snap , then she got pregnant very quickly after.

He lost being able to ever see them again. His death was a loss, sure, but he was formerly a jaded fatalistic guy.  The film made it clear he'd changed because of having a family. Never seeing his daughter grow up, or his wife grow old by his side was the biggest possible sacrifice for him. Not his own death.

Edited by Kromm

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13 minutes ago, Kromm said:

At the very least we know the following people in Peter's life didn't age--from Far From Home previews:

--Ned
--MJ
--Flash
--PROBABLY Aunt May (she doesn't really look any older)

The guy at Peter's local corner store looks the same too (and he still HAS the store in Far From Home--which seems awfully convenient if it's five years later given how changed NY appears to be five years on).

Now it could be that Far From Home really IS set before both of these last two Avengers movies. And yet my gut says they're not doing that.

According to the Russo’s Aunt May did survive the snap. 

Unless Far From Home is a prequel everything about the setup creates problems for me. The plot contrivance that Peter’s social group are still the same age is annoying but my biggest issue is the apparent lack of adequate fallout from Endgame. 

I heard it is supposed to take place not long after Endgame which is not enough time for a European school trip to be remotely feasible.

Edited by Dani
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9 minutes ago, Dani said:

According to the Russo’s Aunt May did survive the snap. 

Unless Far From Home is a prequel everything about the setup creates problems for me. The plot contrivances that Peter’s social group will all survive is annoying but my biggest issue is the apparent lack of adequate fallout from Endgame. 

I heard it is supposed to take place not long after Endgame which is not enough time for a European school trip to be remotely feasible.

If May did survive then come on... she'd be a lot more clingy than we saw with Peter, I suspect. Or pretty traumatized in other ways.  I mean she would have to have processed his death and lived with it for five years.  Would she even still have that same apartment or necessarily even live in New York?  Would Peter still have that same room (we see it in the FFH preview) or are we supposed to think she kept it undisturbed as a monument to him?  Would after being parted from him for five years would she really be ready for him to go to Europe on his own that soon after?  So much doesn't add up. And yet if she DID get snapped, unlike what the Russos say, then how do the Parkers even HAVE an apartment to go back to?  So she MUST have not been snapped. Again, it all makes my head hurt. She has to have "lived" through this and be five years older, but then even the little bits of her behavior we've seen seem a bit... off. Admittedly from a small sample. but the sense of things overall feels weird.

And even apart from personal consequences, Tony's insistence that everyone had to come back five years later instead of being returned to the past (assuming that was even possible) creates SO many huge consequences for so much of the population, even mixed in with the blessings from it.

I mean who's the leader of Wakanda now, for example?  One must assume they've had a different leader for five years now. And then the FORMER leader shows back up?

Edited by Kromm
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1 hour ago, Wynterwolf said:

Pretty good!😉 (contrivance is our middle name)

I also keep thinking about where exactly did people reappear, did they reappear exactly where they disappeared?  What happened to the people who were on a plane?

I think that most of Peter's friends (or the main characters) will have also been snapped. We know that Ned was based on the movie. I think it would be interesting if his aunt wasn't or maybe Ned's parents so you get mention of how hard it was to have a kid and now they are back 5 years later.

Also, it seems like people reappeared where they were. So Peter, Dr. Strange and some of the guardians were back on that planet and other avengers appeared in Wakanda. That would suck if you were on a plane, as you just fall :(. Also my husband and I were talking about this the other day. What about pets? Like someone lost their dog five years ago and moved. Then had to go back to their old house to get their dog who reappeared.

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23 hours ago, Dani said:

Yeah they both would have been able to come back. I just have an easier time believing that Steve would stay in the past if it was a sacrifice than the way it was setup. 

There was no explanation about the repaired shield. 

Speaking of the broken shield I liked that how closely the final battle resembled Tony’s Age of Ultron vision. That was a nice touch bringing the Tony’s arc full circle. 

23 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

Yeah, I just checked on the Marvel wiki and this is all they have:

Because I was thinking, where ever he got that from, wouldn't it have created another time branch?

I think Steve was always Peggy's Husband and it just completed a loop. But in regards to the Shield- I cannot imagine he got another one during the time he was with Peggy from someone in their time period since he was "dead". 

Is it possible that at some point in the future in another movie a few years from now- someone goes back in time to get Cap because they need his help- and that's when he gets a new Shield- takes it back with him and then gives it to Sam in this movie? Does that make sense? 

Like how else would he get a new one? Unless Howard knew- but I doubt it since all he talked about was Cap and how he was dead to Tony growing up.

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40 minutes ago, blueray said:

Also, it seems like people reappeared where they were. So Peter, Dr. Strange and some of the guardians were back on that planet and other avengers appeared in Wakanda. That would suck if you were on a plane, as you just fall :(. Also my husband and I were talking about this the other day. What about pets? Like someone lost their dog five years ago and moved. Then had to go back to their old house to get their dog who reappeared.

Yeah. Peter Parker, Strange, that idiot Star Lord and a few others stranded on that planet, except I guess Strange can somehow transport them BACK from there even though he couldn't transport them there in the first place.

And others on planes.

But if you think about it, what about all the people in cars?  Many would survive popping out onto bare pavement, but many wouldn't.  Wouldn't it be ironic to disappear from a car only to pop out onto pavement five years later and get hit by ANOTHER car?  "Excuse me, your missing relative got returned after five years after being dusted in her car, but we are sorry to tell you is now actually dead due to being hit by a car".

Or what about appearing where someone else is standing?  Or where a tree grew?  Or inside a newly built wall?  etc.

The animal angle hadn't occurred to me. There'd be a lot of stranded domestic animals due to their owners moving, a lot of wild animals where their packs, flocks or families moved on, if plants were affected, a lot of sudden vegetation killing new vegetation which grew in the same place. 

Moreso than on airplanes, throughout the universe there'd be people popping out into the vacuum of space.

Heck, if you think on it, if people ACTUALLY reappeared where they were before EVERY last return would be in the vacuum of space. Space is huge.  Far more area than inside an atmosphere.  And planets, stars, moons... every last one of those things moves. Moons around Planets. Planets around Suns.  Suns around Galactic Arms. Galaxies and all they contain in a continuous expansion apart from each other. NOTHING in this universe stands still. NOTHING.

Okay... so lets assume it had to be a SMART reappearing snap. Nothing else works.

Edited by Kromm
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I'd actually assume Banner was smart enough to think of that sort of thing. Like not having people reappear in mid air where there plane used to be. Doesn't do anything to sort out those were declared dead and remarried spouses and all that but I think Bruce is logical enough to think through 'return them and don't get them killed five seconds later'. 

Something that occured to me while today is that Disney missed a massive opportunity. What if they'd played out the Snap over all their various TV shows? Like, we see characters on Grey's Anatomy and Black-Ish and The Rookie all turning to dust in the episodes that aired right after Infinity War and then with the new episodes next week seeing what happened with those characters coming back five years later? Can you imagine if they'd managed to interconnect on *that* level? 

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4 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

True. But her character still deserved better. She's a huge Captain America character in her own right in the comics and in the end the Russos threw her under to the bus for the Steggy Stan's and to give more screen time to ScarJo.

Sharon Carter might be huge in the comics, but in the movies she's a minor character. Every time Nat was used in a movie it was because she was an Avenger, not because she was somebody's girlfriend. She deserved every minute of screen time she got and them some. 

When Infinity War rolled around and there was no mention of Sharon Carter at all, let alone any relationship between her and Steve, it was clear to me at least that whatever plans they made for that pairing had been abandoned, and Endgame explains why. 

Steve's ending might not have been what I'd chosen if I'd had my druthers (Stucky shipper here), but it was made very clear that it's what he wanted. He sacrificed so much, and fought so hard, he deserved a happy ending, and I'm glad he got it. 

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1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

I think the Soul Stone just requires a sacrifice. Nat sacrificed herself so the stone went to the other person that was with her. Or the stone just needs soul in it to work and it made up the whole sacrifice the one you love thing to make it harder for people to get.  I also think the sacrifice is just to get the stone, once you have it anyone can use it. 

I agree. I have a few questions about the soul stone, though. There's only one, right? So, no one has ever done the required sacrifice to get it before? Ever? Who was the ghosty guide before Red Skull? Is he done now? How does one return the Soul Stone? Does Cap show up and say hey RS, good to see you again, also we don't need this anymore. And RS's reply is ... um, that's not how this works. Do you get a soul back if you return it. On another site, someone asked what if you're a robot? If Wanda and Vision had gone up there, and Vision tried to sacrifice Wanda, would RS be all no, you're a robot, you can't love. And Wanda's all don't diminish our relationship. 

BTW, I'm kidding about all of these questions because I loved the movie so much, and it made me full of hope and heart. 

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12 minutes ago, Kromm said:

Or what about appearing where someone else is standing?  Or where a tree grew?  Or inside a newly built wall?  etc.

Now I’m picturing the scene in Doctor Strange when time was reversing and one of the bad guys ended up in a fish tank. 

13 minutes ago, Kromm said:

Okay... so lets assume it had to be a SMART reappearing snap. Nothing else works.

The number of fanwanks required for this movie is becoming absurd. At the rate Avengers 5 should be going back in time and stoping both snaps. 

There are several tv shows entirely devoted to dealing with the aftermath of having a much smaller percentage of the population returning all at once. There is just no way to adequately handle this situation.  

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5 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

If you can just change the past then they can go back and save Natasha and Tony. The only reason not to is you'd just create alternate timelines and not change the present. So either Steve is in a causal loop(if Peggy's letter thing is legit) and didn't interfere and change the past or he created an alternate timeline and somehow went back to his old one to give Sam his shield.

But PastGamora is now in our present and presumably that's A-OK with the current timeline. If that's how they're gonna roll, then I say we bring Tony, Nat, Vision, and Quicksilver into the present. It's a get out of jail free card and sloppy writing, but they've established it can be done with Gamora, and now I'm like a dog with a bone and will not let this shit go. Gamora being in our present because of timetravel is the biggest game changer aside from undoing the snap, and they're actively ignoring it in the film. Jesus.

I kind of want Wanda to go batshit in the next movie and create her own universe. Everything is wonky as hell now anyways. Might as well descend full on into the madness. 

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The thing that I keep thinking about with everyone returning from the Snap, what about those people who died immediately after the Snap due to the repercussions of the Snap? The people who died from cars that crashed from drivers disappearing, planes crashing, etc. Do they get to come back? What about people who died in the weeks or months after the Snap due to whatever problems the Snap caused by removing all the living things. Do they get to come back? Or was it just the people that disappeared into ashes?

Or is it like "Sorry Joe, mom died from being hit by a car on the same day as the Snap due to the Snap, but even though the 'driver'of the car who hit her came back, she's still dead. Sucks to be us."

And I was accepting the time travel stuff, going with they just created alternate timelines in each of the times they went back to, until that move with oldCap on the bench. And then it all started hurting my brain...

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I'm not sure about past Gamora being in the current timeline. She wasn't at Tony's funeral nor was she on the ship with Thor and the Guardians. We'll know for sure in Guardians 3 but I assumed that she was sent back in to her original time.

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1 minute ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

But PastGamora is now in our present and presumably that's A-OK with the current timeline. If that's how they're gonna roll, then I say we bring Tony, Nat, Vision, and Quicksilver into the present. It's a get out of jail free card and sloppy writing, but they've established it can be done with Gamora, and now I'm like a dog with a bone and will not let this shit go. Gamora being in our present because of timetravel is the biggest game changer aside from undoing the snap, and they're actively ignoring it in the film. Jesus.

I kind of want Wanda to go batshit in the next movie and create her own universe. Everything is wonky as hell now anyways. Might as well descend full on into the madness. 

I still can't get past the impossibility of all of these things co-existing.

Past Gamora is now brought to the present (I'm calling +5 years that just for simplicity's sake). Thus erasing all of Gamora's actions in three previous movies.  Creating an impossibility, because if Gamora was never in those, then Thanos never could have sacrificed her in the first place.

Past Nebula and Present Nebula both show up in the Present, and Past Nebula is killed. And not by a snap, but by later self.  So it's undoable.  Present Nebula even existing is now impossible.

Past Thanos goes to the Present and is snapped into non-existence. If we wank him being returned to the past instead, it only works if all his memories of these events are erased too. But even if so, Nebula CAN'T also be returned and that also irrevocably changes the past.

So it's a new parallel Universe. But if so why does it MATTER if the Stones are put back?  But lets say it does.  Those Stones go back.  And heck, Thanos and his minions are put back with erased memories.  But again, Nebula can't be, and Gamora probably WON'T be put back.  But meanwhile Rogers is there plodding ahead in time the hard way, having replaced those stones, but then we have to wank a CROSS-DIMENSIONAL jump by him, because there's no way this could be the same universe anymore.  The issue of if he'd stand by and let other bad things go on put aside (if we conclude he DID create an alternate universe then why NOT act when he needed to?) we then have to add that cross universe jump to close the loop. Or NONE of this works no matter how hard you wank it.

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8 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

I'm not sure about past Gamora being in the current timeline. She wasn't at Tony's funeral nor was she on the ship with Thor and the Guardians. We'll know for sure in Guardians 3 but I assumed that she was sent back in to her original time.

Okay, but what about Thanos and his legions?

So okay. Tony didn't actually snap them out of existence, we will wank it as that dusting effect just being for dramatic effect and something else actually happened to them.

So that means he not only had to put them back in time, but also had to be able to reset their memories.

But he CAN'T send Nebula back. There's no logic at all where she could be put back. None.  The rules were VERY firmly set there. Dead is dead. The people snapped weren't truly dead, which is why they could be brought back.  Gamora cheating death through forward time travel doesn't change the fact that this doesn't work in reverse for Nebula.

No Nebula in the past means a significantly different past. There's no way around that.  

Edited by Kromm
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2 hours ago, Kromm said:

Or even if it was a versatile snap, and put them only where they'd be safe, imagine the aftermath:

"I'm home but my house is now overgrown/a ruin!"
"I'm home but my wife has remarried and someone else is raising my kids!"
"I'm home and my company went out of business, my estate passed to distant relatives who were still alive, and I have nothing now!  I guess I gotta go live on the street now!"
"I'm home and my younger sister is now my older sister!'
"I was in jail on a three year sentence and it's five years later.  Let me out NOW!"

I can unequivocally say that I have zero interest in a movie that focuses on this.

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They should have had them make the (agonizing) realization that they had to send Thanos & Gamorra back to the past in order to not break the timeline. Probably with some sort of mindwipe. Then Nebula realizes she has to go back with them, knowing what's in store for her. Which would also nicely mirror the comics.

Loki can only be gone long enough for his TV show then return to the end of Avengers 1.

Which would only leave the lesser problems with Steve having been with Peggy all this time & no one knowing, which is (relatively) easier to handwave.

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LOL. This film is breaking hearts and minds. I've been nerding out on comics and sci-fi my entire life, and the timetravel logic in this film is for shit. I'm sorry but it just is. You have to fanwank the crap out of it to make any sense out of it.

Forgot to mention this, but was I the only one who thought the shield OldCap gave Sam looked a little different from his usual? It looked more like the comic book shield in that the usually metallic colored star and stripe looked more white.

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On 4/28/2019 at 3:49 PM, Kromm said:

So it's a new parallel Universe. But if so why does it MATTER if the Stones are put back?  But lets say it does.  Those Stones go back.  And heck, Thanos and his minions are put back with erased memories.  But again, Nebula can't be, and Gamora probably WON'T be put back.  But meanwhile Rogers is there plodding ahead in time the hard way, having replaced those stones, but then we have to wank a CROSS-DIMENSIONAL jump by him, because there's no way this could be the same universe anymore.  The issue of if he'd stand by and let other bad things go on put aside (if we conclude he DID create an alternate universe then why NOT act when he needed to?) we then have to add that cross universe jump to close the loop. Or NONE of this works no matter how hard you wank it.

This is exactly the reason I walked out of the theater unsure if I loved it or hated it.

My personal theory is that each time they time traveled an alternative timeline was created. When Steve stayed in the past it created a new reality where he worked with Peggy and created Shield, stomped out Hydra and rescued Bucky (anything else is too inconsistent with Steve’s personality). He then somehow travels back to the MCU timeline unseen. This is the only version that works for me. 

I still can’t come up with any explanation of how he returned the stones. Just traveling back again should create a new timeline. I suppose there could be a minimum change threshold before a new timeline is created. 

Now I have a headache again. 

Edited by Dani
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I don’t understand why people are assuming that there’s no fallout to people coming back after five years. How long did people want this movie to be? Ten hours? Why can’t these things be dealt with in future Marvel films?

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3 minutes ago, Dani said:

Now I have a headache again. 

My brain feels you.  Also, I'm gonna need a lot of hands for all the 'hand waving'.  

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Why deal with it at all?  These are fantasy movies, which means some unrealistic things will happen.  Trying to make "sense" out of fantasy is pointless. I mean, I loved the Twilight Zone, but I never wondered where the kids who turned young again went in the "kick the can" episode....did they go home to their parents that were now seniors?  If not, how would they survive? Or, how did the Dummy and the ventriloquist switch places?  Did no one wonder?  

See what I mean? 

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1 minute ago, catrice2 said:

Why deal with it at all?  These are fantasy movies, which means some unrealistic things will happen.  Trying to make "sense" out of fantasy is pointless. I mean, I loved the Twilight Zone, but I never wondered where the kids who turned young again went in the "kick the can" episode....did they go home to their parents that were now seniors?  If not, how would they survive? Or, how did the Dummy and the ventriloquist switch places?  Did no one wonder?  

See what I mean? 

I'm sorry, but to me personally that's never a good defense.

The whole basis of why Marvel movies are better by and large than most earlier fantastic movies is that they try for internal consistency and realism within the scope of the fantastic concept.  

Fantasy doesn't mean no rules. It means rules which don't follow real world physics or science. That's not the same thing as "anything goes, because it's fantasy". 

That doesn't mean I didn't enjoy this. My very first comment is that this was a 95 out of 100. And that it had so few flaws.  I'll add that for storytelling's sake, I'm not having trouble getting past any of the flaws or big fanwanks/handwaves needed.

That doesn't erase the ridiculous stuff, or make me not notice it though.

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Awesome movie. I mean, one's nose and ears would bleed thinking of the timeline ramifications, and how a Black Widow movie and/or Vision/Wanda Netflix series could happen. Or why nobody openly considered resetting the Snap. Because Tony had a kid? Also, Steve's been living with Peggy all that time when he was also in the ice? And Loki has the Tesseract again in 2012- . . . okay, shutting up now, because 1. It was a great movie, and 2. We really shouldn't think too hard on things.

Seriously, though, Natasha has to come back, right? A Widow movie that's set in the past wouldn't feel right. I mean, it would probably work up great, but Natasha should come back. As well as Gamora. Is Nebula gone? Gone-gone? All I can think about is a bit of fluff from Doctor Who with Karen Gillen's character flirting with herself. I want to post that into the Internet, but that might bring down wrath upon me for spoiling.

Fat Thor! Thorstagg? VolThor?? I'm sure he'll get better, but the thickening was a nice twist. It wasn't merely for comic purposes . . . it showed Thor as human . . . or at least suffering the same depressive funks that plague a lot of us Midgardians. And now, he's probably the only one of the Big Three last to star in movies. Would he share a movie with the Guardians? "Thor & The Guardians Of The Galaxy," with Quill starring daggers at him on the official poster?

As far as alternative Hulks go, Schlubby Four-Eyed Hulk Banner was pretty good. Why make him grey or red because of comic canon? Here, we get Mark Ruffalo from the last movie, only now he's also Hulk. Not the best one, though. Seriously, watching the 2012 model go sickhouse on an opponent was awesome.

"Rocket, Thor, you're going to go back to one of Thor's movies." "Which one?" "The one everyone roasts, where Doctor Who is put in so much makeup, yet no one remembers him. What was the guy's name? Malman? Male Keith? All I know is that I woke up, and the comic relief monster was romping around after the credits."

Damn, so many callbacks and cameos. "Hey, did you remember we had Robert Friggin' Redford in one of the movies? Because we totally did!!" And we get one last Stan Lee cameo. We're gonna miss the guy.

I probably got a lot more, but I'm stopping here. Also: aside from Far From Home, what's on the MCU schedule after 2019?

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32 minutes ago, Kromm said:

Past Gamora is now brought to the present (I'm calling +5 years that just for simplicity's sake). Thus erasing all of Gamora's actions in three previous movies.  Creating an impossibility, because if Gamora was never in those, then Thanos never could have sacrificed her in the first place.

But meanwhile Rogers is there plodding ahead in time the hard way, having replaced those stones, but then we have to wank a CROSS-DIMENSIONAL jump by him, because there's no way this could be the same universe anymore.  The issue of if he'd stand by and let other bad things go on put aside (if we conclude he DID create an alternate universe then why NOT act when he needed to?) we then have to add that cross universe jump to close the loop. Or NONE of this works no matter how hard you wank it.

But Gamora's actions aren't undone in the timeline we've been watching, according to the behaviour of time travel they gave at the start - same reason they can't just go and kill Thanos as a baby to undo his actions.

Generally I liked the model they used - I'm glad it wasn't a case of using time travel to do a big hard reset where none of it ever happened. And whilst many movies use or hint at the idea of multiple timelines, the problem with that is there's no point to time travel if you're not the time traveler (why should Skynet send Terminators back to create a timeline where it wins, if nothing will change for Skynet in the original timeline).

The problem of Steve could be answered if this isn't a first timeline, but one where Steve already jumped back. So the old Steve we see jumped back from another timeline, although he'd be a different Steve to the one we've been seeing all along... I agree it's unclear why he didn't act - maybe he didn't want to risk dramatically changing things from the future he knew, or he might not be certain how time travel actually works out.

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5 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

I probably got a lot more, but I'm stopping here. Also: aside from Far From Home, what's on the MCU schedule after 2019?

The only other two that are currently ready to begin production are Black Widow and Eternals.

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10 minutes ago, PepSinger said:

I don’t understand why people are assuming that there’s no fallout to people coming back after five years. How long did people want this movie to be? Ten hours? Why can’t these things be dealt with in future Marvel films?

I do think there will be fallout and just don’t think it it’s possible for it handled properly. Half of all life in the universe disappearing and reappearing after 5 years would have an almost  unimaginable number of consequences. The other reason I doubt it will be handled well is Far From Home which is apparently set close after Endgame with a unrealistic premise. 

12 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

Why deal with it at all?  These are fantasy movies, which means some unrealistic things will happen.  Trying to make "sense" out of fantasy is pointless. I mean, I loved the Twilight Zone, but I never wondered where the kids who turned young again went in the "kick the can" episode....did they go home to their parents that were now seniors?  If not, how would they survive? Or, how did the Dummy and the ventriloquist switch places?  Did no one wonder?  

See what I mean? 

That’s comparing apples and oranges. Twilight Zone consisted of standalone episodes. The MCU is a complex cinematic universe covering over decade and continuing into the future. There will be movies and tv shows that are set in the aftermath of Endgame so the questions make sense to me.  

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