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Avengers: Endgame (2019)


BetterButter
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Yeah, I hold Tony far more responsible for the other stuff he pulled in Civil War than his reaction to the truth behind his parents' deaths. That at least was an understandable reaction in the moment to a horrible loss, rather than convincing himself he could pay for his mistakes by declaring friends who disagreed with his views on oversight criminals and traitors.

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11 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

No, they just know Tony had seen video of his mother being strangled to death and the guy who did it was standing right in front of him. This topic has been debated since Civil War came out but the fact is even most viewers may not like what Tony did but they understand it. The reason they can forgive that and not Bruce Wayne being a total dick in Batman V Superman is that from the beginning, that unlike those characters Tony has always been portrayed as a deeply flawed character, whose morals were always out of whack.

Captain America The Winter Soldier was great because it was based on an already great story-line in the comic written by Ed Brubaker and they only changed a few things.

People "understand" it because they buy into the emotion of the scene. What Tony does is clearly wrong, it's attempted murder of a man that Tony KNOWS was acting under mind control at the time, but people buy into the emotion of the moment so they don't think about it or will even excuse it. If you're like me and don't buy into the emotion of that moment, then that scene is just horrible and basically ruins Tony as a character.

With Cap in Endgame the writers, again, bank on the viewers buying into the emotion of the scene. Their expectation is that seeing Steve and Peggy dancing will cause such a strong positive emotional response that they won't think about anything else.

It's the same basic formula they used in Winter Soldier (Endgame makes sure to hammer home the importance of Peggy to Steve throughout the film, in the same way that Civil War hammers home Tony's relationship with his parents), this time they just miscalculated their audience's response and investment in Steve and Peggy as a couple and a greater percentage of the audience didn't buy into the emotion and are really upset about it.

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On 6/13/2019 at 12:16 PM, Bruinsfan said:

Yeah, that's a job that just SCREAMS Black Widow to me. WTF were the writers smoking when they came up with that?

Ugh. Exactly. I'm glad they stuck to defacto leader of what's left of the Avengers. 
Also happy to never see more of the Nat/Bruce forced relationship. Was rewatching AoU and god that is so painfully awkward. 

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Or maybe they miscalculated the investment the audience would have in the scene of him giving up the shield. But I think the main problem is that they didn't really think about the implications of Steve staying in the past.

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15 hours ago, swanpride said:

Huh, I actually thought that the story in the comic wasn't that popular?

It was extremely popular and critically acclaimed. That's why they made it into a movie! It's what made Bucky a popular character in the 21st century. I think you're confusing it with "Secret Empire", which was definitely NOT beloved by fans.

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27 minutes ago, swanpride said:

Or maybe they miscalculated the investment the audience would have in the scene of him giving up the shield. But I think the main problem is that they didn't really think about the implications of Steve staying in the past.

Like the hail Hydra the passing of the shield waa just an Easter egg for comic books fans. I think that the directors fully understood the problems a closed time loop with old Steve in the background meant. Thus they left out any explicit reference to a  closed loop in the final cut. I  can't remember, did he have a new shield along with the hammer on the stone returning mission?

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I don't even mean the kind of time travel. I was thinking about what this means for Steve. So either he has to sit still and allow Bucky getting tortured for decades, or he changes the timeline which would lead to him replacing Peggy's husband, maybe erasing her future children all the while another version of him is sleeping in the ice.

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(edited)

Changing the timeline would simply lead to a branch. It wouldn't erase anyone. Peggy's original husband and kids would still exist in the other timeline.

There's also no reason he would have to leave the other version of him sleeping in the ice. Once he changed the timeline and moved into an alternate universe, he may as well rescue the other version of himself as well as Bucky. 

If he didn't do changes because he wanted to stay and create a time loop, that would mean he was always Peggy's husband. So again, no erasure. Not rescuing Bucky would be because he couldn't... original timeline's Bucky will always be the Winter Soldier. Captain America can't change that. All he can do is create another alternate universe timeline where Bucky gets rescued earlier.

Edited by Zuleikha
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(edited)
19 hours ago, swanpride said:

Pretty much. It kind of felt like the movie wasted time at stuff I actually didn't really care about - like the taco scene, I mean, it was funny, but they could have just as well skipped it and cut immediately to Hulk and Co visiting Thor, there was no need to see Nebula and Rhodey arriving to understand what "getting the team together" means.

Like, the best scene of the whole movie is maybe Tony and Nebula playing finger football. It is such a simple scene, but it means so much. Just the thought that this was most likely the first time in her life that Nebula actually won at anything, and that she was encouraged all the way to get there breaks my heart. I rather had more of that and less of pointless forthnight jokes which will be dated soon anyway.

I was completely enthralled with all of Tony/Nebula. From the finger football, to the touching moments when she's caring for him. Made me like Nebula 100x more, and I already thought she was awesome. I could have done with some tighter editing on scenes that dragged on; The picture joke with Hulk & Scott was entirely too long and became increasingly less funny and just plain awkward. Less of that stuff, more quality moments like Tony & Nebula. And ya know, if one of those moments could've involved Steve & Bucky, that would have been just SWELL. 

16 hours ago, Raja said:

With Shuri and Hank Pym gone Bill Foster could have come along as an additional science bro to take on the quantum stuff with Tony Stark and Professor Hulk like the Ancient One did. 

I remember speculating before the film came out that we would probably see Bill helping out with the Quantum Realm stuff, and I also thought Wong would be around helping out with the Infinity Stones knowledge. 

Edited by Jeebus Cripes
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Yeah, the picture joke was another thing which could have been shortened or even removed altogether. I didn't feel that it was telling me anything about the characters I didn't know already. The time tunnel scene could have been shorter, too.

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If you're going to end things with Old Man Steve, then Bucky probably should have survived the snap. That way, at the least, we'd know that Steve had been working with Bucky for 5 years and he'd know that Bucky had adjusted after shaking the Winter Soldier programing and was in a relatively good place before he went back to Peggy.

Also could have got a scene where Tony apologizes to Bucky for the whole trying to murder him thing.

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On ‎6‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 1:25 AM, Jeebus Cripes said:

The picture joke with Hulk & Scott was entirely too long and became increasingly less funny and just plain awkward.

On ‎6‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 3:00 AM, swanpride said:

Yeah, the picture joke was another thing which could have been shortened or even removed altogether. I didn't feel that it was telling me anything about the characters I didn't know already.

What bothered me most about that scene (besides not being funny) was that they completely skipped over huge character development of both Bruce and the Hulk that was 10 years coming.  All so they can have the shock reveal of Professor Hulk.

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On ‎6‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 11:54 PM, ChromaKelly said:

Ugh. Exactly. I'm glad they stuck to defacto leader of what's left of the Avengers. 
Also happy to never see more of the Nat/Bruce forced relationship. Was rewatching AoU and god that is so painfully awkward. 

It was so bad. The actors had absolutely no chemistry, and you could practically see Scarlett Johansson cringing at having to deliver lines like "I adore you", out of the blue. I really think this was a case of Whedon latching onto an idea which utterly baffled the actors, and no one involved could ever really make sense of it.

On ‎6‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 1:09 AM, VCRTracking said:

It was extremely popular and critically acclaimed. That's why they made it into a movie! It's what made Bucky a popular character in the 21st century. I think you're confusing it with "Secret Empire", which was definitely NOT beloved by fans.

Yup. Brubaker's Captain America run was universally acclaimed, from start to finish. And then his run on Winter Soldier was great too, until he came to end it on a really sour note of 'if I can't play with my toys, I'm going to break them so no one else can'.

But his reinvention and revival of Bucky is one of the best executed stories in a long time. Something Captain America: The Winter Soldier honoured, but the movies that came after didn't.

On ‎6‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 6:25 AM, Jeebus Cripes said:

I was completely enthralled with all of Tony/Nebula. From the finger football, to the touching moments when she's caring for him. Made me like Nebula 100x more, and I already thought she was awesome. I could have done with some tighter editing on scenes that dragged on; The picture joke with Hulk & Scott was entirely too long and became increasingly less funny and just plain awkward. Less of that stuff, more quality moments like Tony & Nebula. And ya know, if one of those moments could've involved Steve & Bucky, that would have been just SWELL. 

Everything Nebula was great, and a wonderful surprise. I really liked her character from the first Guardians movie, where Karen Gillan imbued her with a mix of violent anger and glimpses of vulnerability. The evolution she's undergone, to the point that she's now pretty much an Avenger, has been fantastic.

I wish we'd got more scenes of her with Tony, and with the other Avengers, after the opening. Because to this point, the only humans she'd met were Quill (an idiot) and Tony (someone she clearly came to care about and admire). I'd have liked to see her interact with Cap and Natasha.

On ‎6‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 10:46 PM, Perfect Xero said:

If you're going to end things with Old Man Steve, then Bucky probably should have survived the snap. That way, at the least, we'd know that Steve had been working with Bucky for 5 years and he'd know that Bucky had adjusted after shaking the Winter Soldier programing and was in a relatively good place before he went back to Peggy.

Also could have got a scene where Tony apologizes to Bucky for the whole trying to murder him thing.

Bucky was only in these movies to serve as Steve's angsty motivator (which he didn't need, because Steve Rogers would feel the pain of others who had lost loved ones just as keenly). It was inevitable that he would be prominently turned to dust, while all the focus was on Steve's reaction to it.

My main gripe with the entire MCU is how they've used Bucky as a macguffin for Steve, more than as an actual character in his own right.

As for Bucky not getting the shield, if they'd developed his character more then it would be clear why he wouldn't want it - in the comics, the guilt he felt over all the evil he'd done as the Winter Soldier was always with him, and he struggled to believe he could ever be worthy enough to be Steve's friend again, let alone to take up his mantle.

It was only a letter Steve sent to Tony before he was "killed" asking for Bucky to be given the mantle of Captain America that convinced him to take it. And even then, he doubted himself so much that he relied heavily on the support of Natasha and Sam to grow into the role.

Edited by Danny Franks
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2 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

It was so bad. The actors had absolutely no chemistry, and you could practically see Scarlett Johansson cringing at having to deliver lines like "I adore you", out of the blue. I really think this was a case of Whedon latching onto an idea which utterly baffled the actors, and no one involved could ever really make sense of it.

I still really like it.

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Not a fan of the Natasha/Bruce romance either. For starters, the last time we saw those characters Natasha was positively terrified of the Hulk. If you want to have those characters suddenly be interested in each other, you need to offer more than lines from Whedon's typical teenager romances. I could have therefore used even LESS of it in Endgame.

I don't care if Bucky gets the shield or not. Frankly, for me it doesn't matter who gets the shield, because there is only one Steve Rogers. But you can't use Bucky as Steve personal angst-machine for four movie and then suddenly make the story all about Peggy. It just felt wrong.

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6 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

As for Bucky not getting the shield, if they'd developed his character more then it would be clear why he wouldn't want it - in the comics, the guilt he felt over all the evil he'd done as the Winter Soldier was always with him, and he struggled to believe he could ever be worthy enough to be Steve's friend again, let alone to take up his mantle.

It was only a letter Steve sent to Tony before he was "killed" asking for Bucky to be given the mantle of Captain America that convinced him to take it. And even then, he doubted himself so much that he relied heavily on the support of Natasha and Sam to grow into the role.

^^^ Would love to watch this movie. In general, I need more Team Cap. I felt like we only got half of that in Civil War. I would have at least liked more dialogue between Steve and Bucky in Endgame. Steve's the guy who threw down his shield and chose Bucky over the Avengers and being Captain America. Bucky comes back from - wherever they were - and it's just like hey bro? Yeah... I just... ugh.

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Avengers: Endgame Officially Getting Re-Released With New Footage (Exclusive)

Quote

While attending the Spider-Man: Far From Home press junket in London, ComicBook.com's Brandon Davis spoke exclusively with Marvel Studios president Kevin Feige, who confirmed that Avengers: Endgame was heading back to the big screen for a theatrical re-release. Not only that, but this version of the film will arrive with extra scenes that weren't included in the first theatrical release.

"We are doing that," Feige said of an Endgame re-release with new footage. "I don't know if it's been announced. And I don't know how much... Yeah, we're doing it next weekend."

James Cameron is shook (jk jk).

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Figured they would do something to give it a bump around FFH's release, they are determined to get it past Avatar so they'll make it happen.  Personally, the only way I care is if we see Steve coming back to Bucky and Sam after his dance with Peggy, and we find out OldSteve is from one of the alternate universes.  

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Yeah to the Steve thing and more Nebula and Tony would be nice. Or some scenes with Nat & Nebula.  But seriously though if they add more scenes there really does need to be an intermission.

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(edited)
36 minutes ago, festivus said:

But seriously though if they add more scenes there really does need to be an intermission.

Right? And it's just so transparent that they would only be doing this to help the movie limp past Avatar (since they'd probably have to leave it in theaters until Christmas for it to get there on it own), because in ordinary circumstances any deleted scenes would just be included in the DVD... or if they really want to include it within the movie run time, add a 'directors cut' to the DVD so people can pause it and take a bathroom break!  

Edited by Wynterwolf
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23 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And the news of the re-release begs the question: how will one know which is the re-release when the first release is still playing in theatres? Or are they going to pull that one?

I would think that surely the old print will be pulled unless a theatre has a bootleg.

What I am wondering is how much will they lose on the back end as one driver for the home video market was to get the extra scenes being used in a record attempt. Just how strong is the Marvel nerd nation?

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30 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And the news of the re-release begs the question: how will one know which is the re-release when the first release is still playing in theatres? Or are they going to pull that one?

The new one will be called Avengers: Endestgame.

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(edited)

Just another cash grab from Marvel since they realized EA wasn't going to make $1 billion domestically or surpass Avatar. They're probably hoping that the hardcore fans who only saw it once instead of a dozen times because they were so pissed off by various things will show up in droves at the promise of "added" scenes. Added scenes which will probably amount to nothing.

I know I won't be shelling out to see it again. I said that after seeing it once and being so pissed off by it when normally I would've gone to see it multiple times as I have other movies I love. Added scenes won't change my mind.

Edited by scriggle
grammar
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8 minutes ago, scriggle said:

Just another cash grab from Marvel since they realized EA wasn't going to make $1 billion domestically or surpass Avatar. They're probably hoping that the hardcore fans who only saw it once instead of a dozen times because they were so pissed off by various things will show up in droves at the promise of "added" scenes. Added scenes which will probably amount to nothing.

I know I won't be shelling out to see it again. I said that after seeing it once and being so pissed off by it when normally I would've gone to see it multiple times as I have other movies I love. Added scenes won't change my mind.

Avatar set its record by being in cinemas for months, so talking about how Endgame couldn't pass it on initial release is a little unfair. If you didn't like it, then I doubt Marvel is trying to win you back with whatever scenes are added.

And of course it's a cash grab. That's what movies are. They're intended to make as much money as possible. For a long while, the cut of Endgame was quite a bit longer than the theatrical version that we've seen, so why not add some of those scenes back in and offer it to fans?

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26 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

Avatar set its record by being in cinemas for months, so talking about how Endgame couldn't pass it on initial release is a little unfair. If you didn't like it, then I doubt Marvel is trying to win you back with whatever scenes are added.

And of course it's a cash grab. That's what movies are. They're intended to make as much money as possible. For a long while, the cut of Endgame was quite a bit longer than the theatrical version that we've seen, so why not add some of those scenes back in and offer it to fans?

That's just it. Avatar had legs. Endgame doesn't. Endgame was ridiculously frontloaded. Casual fans saw it once and were satisfied. Other moviegoers waited to see it and once the "spoiler embargo" ended, may have decided "why bother?" Of the more hardcore fans, some percentage saw it multiple times but another significant percentage didn't. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2019/06/11/avengers-endgame-star-wars-avatar-jurassic-skywalker-jedi-black-panther-marvel-box-office/#72264d096049

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2019/06/12/avengers-endgame-box-office-jurassic-star-wars-terminator-batman-avatar-titanic-lion-king-et-jaws/#7876823635d3

Edited by scriggle
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Adjusting for Inflation is imperfect...there are at least other five other aspects which influence the box office of any given movie: In which year it was released (older movies had less competition compared to newer ones), in how many markets and theatres it was shown (movies which were released between 1938 and 1945 had a harder time due to the war, China used to have less theatres and they don't allow all movies a release...they just allowed a release of Spirited away), how long it was in theatres (in the past movies stayed in theatres for years), what else was released around the same time (Endgame is already the highest grossing summer movie by far, which is impressive considering the level of competition) and the quality of the marketing.

It is, at the end of the day, a meaningless number...but it is still kind of fun.

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3 minutes ago, scriggle said:

That's just it. Avatar had legs. Endgame doesn't. Endgame was ridiculously frontloaded. Casual fans saw it once and were satisfied. Other moviegoers waited to see it and once the "spoiler embargo" ended, may have decided "why bother?" Of the more hardcore fans, some percentage saw it multiple times but another significant percentage didn't. 

Right, a movie 'has legs' generally from repeat viewing from passionate fans and also from word of mouth drawing in more casual fans over time.  Some hardcore fans definitely have seen it multiple times, but in general word of mouth has been at best mixed, and it seems like there may have been far more hardcore fans that didn't go see it multiple time than was maybe expected.  That, I think, speaks to the overall quality of the storytelling separate and apart from the spectacle of it as an event.  

2 minutes ago, swanpride said:

Adjusting for Inflation is imperfect

Well, basically all comparisons are imperfect because they don't happen within the same context. 

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I think the issue is more that there has been a really high quality copy floating around the net since week 2. People who just wanted to rewatch didn't have to go to the theatre to figure out if there is really Howard the Duck in the finale battle.

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There are A LOT of factors apart from the story that have to do with why it's yet to beat Avatar (in half the time it took Avatar to hit it's record mind you it's only 45 million behind). I could list them all but I think if you hate the movie you just hate the movie and reason means little to ya.

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(edited)
7 minutes ago, JessePinkman said:

There are A LOT of factors apart from the story that have to do with why it's yet to beat Avatar (in half the time it took Avatar to hit it's record mind you it's only 45 million behind). I could list them all but I think if you hate the movie you just hate the movie and reason means little to ya.

I don't think its hate the movie, but hate the ideal that to really appreciated Endgame at its best you had to see 23 movies, and maybe the Agents of SHIELD TV to tie into Winter Soldier and Age of Ultron and Agent Carter for Jarvis and old man Steve stuff.

Where as for Avatar nobody is talking about the Easter eggs of Pandora, with the sequel franchise still in planning stages but rather you have never seen visuals like these before you need to go see it on the big screen yourself which was Avatars legs

Edited by Raja
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36 minutes ago, scriggle said:

That's just it. Avatar had legs. Endgame doesn't. Endgame was ridiculously frontloaded. Casual fans saw it once and were satisfied. Other moviegoers waited to see it and once the "spoiler embargo" ended, may have decided "why bother?" Of the more hardcore fans, some percentage saw it multiple times but another significant percentage didn't. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2019/06/11/avengers-endgame-star-wars-avatar-jurassic-skywalker-jedi-black-panther-marvel-box-office/#72264d096049

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2019/06/12/avengers-endgame-box-office-jurassic-star-wars-terminator-batman-avatar-titanic-lion-king-et-jaws/#7876823635d3

What difference does that make? Movies make money because they make money, the reasons behind it don't matter to the accountants. Avatar was a showcase for supposedly revolutionary technology (which ended up being something of a damp squib, to be honest) and relied on that hype to sustain it. Avengers relied on the hype of the climax of this phase of the MCU. And the fact that a lot more people needed to see it right away is somehow a criticism?

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(edited)
9 minutes ago, Raja said:

I don't think its hate the movie, but hate the ideal that to really appreciated Endgame at its best you had to see 23 movies, and maybe the Agents of SHIELD TV to tie into Winter Soldier and Age of Ultron and Agent Carter for Jarvis and old man Steve stuff.

Why does that bother you? I imagine I'd need to see the first 7 Harry Potters movies to fully appreciate Deathly Hollows: Part 2.

Just now, Danny Franks said:

What difference does that make? Movies make money because they make money, the reasons behind it don't matter to the accountants. Avatar was a showcase for supposedly revolutionary technology (which ended up being something of a damp squib, to be honest) and relied on that hype to sustain it. Avengers relied on the hype of the climax of this phase of the MCU. And the fact that a lot more people needed to see it right away is somehow a criticism?

Right? I don't get it. You don't need legs if all of your fans showed up in the first week! The movie made a billion dollars in 5 days! How are these negatives?

Edited by JessePinkman
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Nobody is talking about Avatar, period. It was a fad and went away pretty quickly for such a supposed milestone.

Anyway, the criticism that you need to watch other movies to fully appreciate Endgame is pretty limp. It's like complaining that a comedy is funny or a horror movie is scary. Endgame is supposed to be that way. One can like it or not, but that's hardly a mark of quality.

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32 minutes ago, JessePinkman said:

Why does that bother you? I imagine I'd need to see the first 7 Harry Potters movies to fully appreciate Deathly Hollows: Part 2.

Right? I don't get it. You don't need legs if all of your fans showed up in the first week! The movie made a billion dollars in 5 days! How are these negatives?

It doesn't bother me just a theory. As to the legs, the Marvel nerd wants the record, and he "missed it by that much" as Maxwell Smart would say. New folks are not coming in which is the big difference with Avatar staying in the theatres and sites like this one gives you the Easter eggs so whoever wanted to see Howard the Duck in the forest of a grand battle, while trying to focus out the grand battle has done it. I doubt a new post credits scene will get the $50 for the record Only an announcement that a home video release will be delayed can actually get some Endgame booster shot watches to really push that number up.

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13 minutes ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

Eh, I'll wait to hear from fans what these clips are. I may be your bitch, Marvel, but I ain't made of money. 

Also, Avatar sucks. That is all. 

Exactly this. I considered it for five seconds before I remembered that I already promised to take my nieces to Aladdin and Toy Story 4 and that I want to see Far From Home. They’d have to completely redo the ending to make seeing Endgame again worth the time and money. 

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(edited)

Cinemark is already selling tickets for the re-release. Here’s their description.

After the events of Infinity War, the universe is in ruins. The Avengers assemble once more in order to undo Thanos' actions and restore order to the universe. Includes 7 minutes of bonus content & Stan Lee tribute.

Edited by Guest
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30 minutes ago, Jenniferbug said:

7 minutes? That's it? Yeah, that's not enough to get me to buy another $8 ticket, but nice try Marvel.

I think I may be one of the few people on the planet who have not seen Avatar.

I'll probably see it, but I have AMC A-List.

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1 hour ago, Jenniferbug said:

I think I may be one of the few people on the planet who have not seen Avatar.

I didn't hate it, but I didn't love it. Some good ideas, but dodgy execution. You aren't missing much.

There's currently no rerelease of Endgame scheduled for my part of the world. I couldn't go even if I wanted to. And frankly, it'll be out on DVD soon. So I'm not fussed. Also, it'd be nice if the number one movie was actually a really good one, but again I don't really care that much.

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