S07.E09: Elseworlds Part 2

[Lady Calypso]

Quote

THE ELSEWORLDS CROSSOVER CONTINUES IN GOTHAM CITY WITH BATWOMAN (RUBY ROSE) — With Oliver (Stephen Amell) and Barry (guest star Grant Gustin) still stuck in the other’s bodies, the two get a lead on John Deegan (guest star Jeremy Davies) and head to Gotham City with Supergirl (guest star Melissa Benoist) to figure out why their reality has changed. While there, they meet the mysterious Kate Kane (guest star Ruby Rose) who provides them with information that leads the group to Arkham Asylum. James Bamford directed the episode with teleplay by Marc Guggenheim and story by Caroline Dries (#709). Original airdate 12/10/2018.

[phoenics]

Finally it got good at the end with Superman in the black suit!  Yes.

[Soulfire]

Oliver: "We're going to be okay. People change, Felicity. It means we're growing; it means we're evolving. Except for one thing, one thing that will not change is how I feel about you. Love is too small a word. And no matter who you are and what you become, no matter who I am or what I become -- you will always be... you will always be the love of my life. People change. That never will."

Good speech.

Edited December 11, 2018 by Soulfire

[insomniadreams88]

I liked this part more than part 1, but I'm still not wowed.

Absolutely loved the Olicity scene. "Love is too small a world." "You will always be the love of my life." YES. 

HOWEVER, not telling Felicity was just stupid. The reasoning for it was stupid. 

I wanted to like the Felicity/Caitlin scene, I did, because I do want them to be friends, but I wasn't feeling it. 

So far, I'm not sold on any potential Batwoman standalone series. (Also, annoyed that they used the Arrow episode to launch it.) SA's wife wasn't bad, but I just didn't get the point of her or the character.

Oh, and the tease about Diggle? Nice. Also, I liked Diggle again. Can we keep this Diggle? 

Curtis was unnecessary. 

[Primal Slayer]

So this wasnt as rage inducing as Pt.1 was but not as enjoyable overall as Pt.1 was...Batwoman just did a lot of standing around. Ruby was ok but you can tell she still needs to grow a lot, the fact that one of the writers talked about her having an intense look pretty much sums her her casting.

It had plenty of fun easter eggs though. Cant believe we didnt get to see the OG Flash in action!

[apinknightmare]

I didn't like this any better than last night's episode although I have to admit that the ending with the Trigger Twins did intrigue me for some reason. I wish we could've gotten a 5-minute sequence of Oliver just wailing on Diaz. 

I don't think I've ever been treated to this particular brand of Guggenheim special, where he pulls drama from a total retcon of events just an episode before, but he did write a great make up for Oliver and Felicity, and I'm glad that drama won't be following us into the hiatus. 

Not really a fan of Batwoman.

[mxc90]

This episode was a little better but it's lacking.

The Freaky Friday/Quantum Leap references are getting tired.

The first thing John Deegan should have used the book for was a decent hair cut.

Now we know Deegan works for Arkham, why did that university bring him in to give a lecture?

Why is the Monitor giving Deegan a second chance?

Cisco should have a broken back.

The Cicada fight didn't give Killer Frost the confidence to handle that woman on her own?

Batwoman figures out Supergirl/Kara Danvers in minutes with few clues but Lena is still clueless?!

I wonder if Barry as Arrow should have seen Eobard (if he's really Barry inside).

[ruby24]

4 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

 

I wanted to like the Felicity/Caitlin scene, I did, because I do want them to be friends, but I wasn't feeling it. 

 

Welcome to the pain of watching Caitlin interact with anyone for any length of time, ever. God I hate that actress and that character. She's been useless and a waste of screen time for FIVE YEARS 

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, ruby24 said:

Welcome to the pain of watching Caitlin interact with anyone for any length of time, ever. God I hate that actress and that character. She's been useless and a waste of screen time for FIVE YEARS 

I don't feel any particular way about her, but I honestly couldn't tell you anything she did in either episode apart from calling Nora Fries a cold bitch. And only because it was so bad it made me LOL.

[Mary0360]

2 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

I liked this part more than part 1, but I'm still not wowed.

Absolutely loved the Olicity scene. "Love is too small a world." "You will always be the love of my life." YES. 

HOWEVER, not telling Felicity was just stupid. The reasoning for it was stupid. 

Yep I loved the Olicity scene but it took a bunch of contrived and pointless drama just to give them that scene. Including the crap from last episode just to have them at odds in the crossover. But I'm glad that at least we are going into hiatus with them in a better place. 

[RandomWatcher]

Diggle is a Green Lantern on Earth 90. Though he's probably Stewart there.

[Jediknight]

Batwoman is going to be so damn awesome.

Those female billionaires sure do have a thing for Kara.  Of course, who doesn't?

[GHScorpiosRule]

They couldn’t find anyone better than Ruby to play BatWoman? Horrible just horrible. From her stiff posing.point and shoot, to her flat, flat delivery that sounded like she was grinding her teeth.

Oliver being stupid. But glad he listened to Barry and now he and Felicity are on the same page.

SHUT UP CISCO! What the Fuck with that Iris knew immediately nonsense?

Boring, boring, BORRRRRING.

And I’ll say it: I have NO DESIRE to see Supes as Justice Lord. No FUCKING INTEREST in an Evil Superman. 

Yeah like I’m supposed to believe the corruption in Gotham would break THE GODAMN BATMAN.😒😒😒😒 Is that Guggenheim’s petulance at being denied to do a Batman show?

5 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I don't feel any particular way about her, but I honestly couldn't tell you anything she did in either episode apart from calling Nora Fries a cold bitch. And only because it was so bad it made me LOL.

That was Nora Fries?!!! Oh, for FUCK’S SAKE!🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬

[AD35]

1 minute ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Yeah like I’m supposed to believe the corruption in Gotham would break THE GODAMN BATMAN.😒😒😒😒 Is that Guggenheim’s petulance at being denied to do a Batman show?

 Anyone besides me had a moment of deja vu when they heard that?  Wasn't that the premise behind Birds of Prey?  I know that tonight's ep was Arrow's, but are they ever going to get rid of Diaz permanently? This guy is like a cold sore or a bad rash you just can't get rid of no matter how hard you try.

[KenyaJ]

I didn't even realize how much I needed to see Oliver kicking Diaz's ass, but damn! Satisfying and hot!

Sadly, most of the episode was boring. Ruby Rose has a way to go before she can carry a show, and Mrs. Amell's cameo was so pointless that it seemed gratuitous.  

There were a few good things. I loved Felicity being her genius self and doing genius things, even in the middle of an emotional crisis. Her talk with Caitlin was nice. I've always enjoyed whenever they've gotten the chance to interact in crossovers. SA and GG continue to be great together, and SA's comedic performance has been my favorite thing about the crossover. Well, my second favorite because  . . . 

I will be in a puddle for the rest of the evening year. I love these two idiots sfm!

[BkWurm1]

There was still a lot off about this episode but it wasn't mean toward the characters in the same way so that's an improvement at least. 

Not telling Felicity was absurd and weird but I think it really was just plot drama since otherwise there is no heart or emotion in this crossover except for the contrived drama.  That said, it was incredibly satisfying to hear Oliver say what so clearly Felicity (and I) needed him to say.  I wanted to hug EBR for giving us that look, of Felicity coming back to herself just because Oliver finally said that no matter what, he still loves her and will love her.  Her fear is losing him and has been for so long and I hated that he'd failed to give her that reassurance that she so clearly needed last week.  

Bravo to the writers for giving us another iconic line.  "Love is too small a word."  Yeah, that's my ship. Swoon.   

[Jediknight]

17 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Yeah like I’m supposed to believe the corruption in Gotham would break THE GODAMN BATMAN.😒😒😒😒 Is that Guggenheim’s petulance at being denied to do a Batman show?

My guess, in this continuity is that the murder of Jason broke him.

[Chaser]

It was hard to appreciate the Felicity/Caitlin scene cause the need for it was super dumb. I did appreciate Felicity solving problems during her emotional rollercoaster. 

WTF with this whole ‘Iris knew right away’? 1) it’s not what happened at all and 2) if was correct than Iris was just feeling up Oliver for fun also not a good look.

I loved that last Olicity scene. Perfect speech. I need more Olicity because they still have some stuff to work out but I needed this going into hiatus. 

[La Dee Da]

The Flash isn’t available in my area so there were a few moments of confusion at the beginning - I wonder if this would’ve been better as a two-part event.  Even with the detour to Gotham, this felt like filler, until the last 10 minutes! Oliver and Barry on the run as outlaws (with cute matching outfits) seems like a fun alt-reality! 

Liked Oliver snarking on Gotham - it’s too bad they don’t give him this kind of moment on the regular show. The bat costume needs a bit of work if she’s to become a regular feature.

The speech was lovely - I guess everything’s fixed now! Abrupt, but instant problems deserve instant solutions, I guess. 

Going forward, given that the scientist was being set up by the monitor to set up an ultimate big bad (like evil nesting dolls!), do we see the biggest bad tomorrow night, in a future cross-over or popping up in each of the shows over the course of the season? 

[OnceSane]

Any discussion or speculation about what 3rd parties (e.g., TPTB) are thinking, except as it directly pertains to the plot of the show itself, is off-limits.  This includes assertions about what the writers think of characters, relationships, or actors.

Example:

* Allowed: "I think Barry will be in the finale episode because his super speed powers will be needed."

* Forbidden: "I think Barry will be in the finale episode and get more screentime than Wally because the writers are racist."

Do not use this crossover as an excuse to engage in ship wars, be rude or rehash last year's crossover.  Keep it to the show, y'all.

[Mellowyellow]

Omg omg omg *wheezes*

Ok MG that was an epic speech. I'll give that to you. 

So they had Oliver go goldfish in 708 so they could have this speech. 

"Love is too small a word"

"You will always be the love of my life"

Omgggggggggggggggggg *screams*

Oliver is always on point with his epic declarations of love though. Oh my precious goldfish. You did good!

Edited December 11, 2018 by Mellowyellow
Not sure if I'm allowed to call MG names

[tennisgurl]

I am just going to watch the last ten minutes over and over again. If the whole crossover was like that, I would be in happy, comic heaven! "Love is too small a word" *swoon*

Anyway, I liked this episode better than last week. The pacing was better, and it felt more like an actual event, and not just a random episode featuring some extra characters. Granted, the last ten minutes were so epic that it made me annoyed that the whole rest of this crossover was just padding, but its something at least! 

Ruby Rose is alright, but she seems to be operating on "tough girls squint a lot" as an acting style. I think she would need to grow into the role before I really get into her as Batwoman. Her costume did look cool, and I admit that I loved seeing Gotham in the Arrowverse. Its not as crazy as Gotham Gotham, but its pretty damn nuts. And I love Oliver's random hatred of the whole city, and refusing to believe that Batman is real. Its so petty, like there has to be ONE city thats more shitty than his. 

Oliver/Barry/Kara are a fun combination, and they had some nice banter. Certainly better than last night. As in, I think the writers actually have some passing idea who these people are. Although, not telling Felicity was freaking stupid. Yeah Oliver, not telling her stuff was always needed so well...

But all is forgiven for that amazing speech Ollie gave her! Yes, yes, YES! Now after break, I want all cuddles, all the time! All of the Olicity cuddles!

Of course Mumbles is around, and a pain in the ass, in any universe, but Oliver got to kick his ass, so thats always satisfying! And Oliver and Barry joined the Sons of Anarchy in this universe apparently. 

[Mary0360]

I love this ❤️ 

[Soulfire]

 

From here.

Edited December 11, 2018 by Soulfire

[KenyaJ]

6 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

And I love Oliver's random hatred of the whole city, and refusing to believe that Batman is real. Its so petty, like there has to be ONE city thats more shitty than his. 

It's now my head cannon that when Oliver was mayor, he and the mayor of Gotham City engaged in some epic back-and-forth trash talking about whose city was shittier.

[Mellowyellow]

3 minutes ago, Mary0360 said:

I love this ❤️ 

That is pretty awesome!!! I wish we had a kiss of Felicity in the s3 Atom Suit to for the collection!

[Writing Wrongs]

I liked the names on the Arkham Asylum doors:

O. Cobblepot

P. Isley

E. Nigma

M. Guggenheim

There was another one that I didn't recognize. Was the guy in the gold mask supposed to be someone from the comics?

Edited December 11, 2018 by Writing Wrongs

[apinknightmare]

3 minutes ago, KenyaJ said:

It's now my head cannon that when Oliver was mayor, he and the mayor of Gotham City engaged in some epic back-and-forth trash talking about whose city was shittier.

We'll need a flash forward to 2040 before we can really make a judgment. 

 

Actually...on second thought no thank you. We have enough 2040 problems as-is.

[lemotomato]

The last 5 minutes-- starting with the Olicity conversation-- were pretty great. I think I pumped my fist when Oliver realized he didn't have Flash powers anymore and instead used his normal skills to efficiently take down Diaz (who apparently monologues long enough to be defeated in every reality). I was bored with the rest of the episode and felt that once again, Arrow got drew the short straw and had to leave most of its characters off screen to spend most of the time setting up the next spinoff.

[Angel12d]

I didn't watch this episode (or last night's) but I did catch the Olicity scene on twitter (priorities, am I right?! 😂) and I actually couldn't have asked for anything better tbh. 

It didn't feel like they were just ignoring their issues but Oliver was giving Felicity the love she probably needed to hear after their talk last episode. Also the love of my life line? Loved that. I'll live off of that for a while. ☺️

Edited December 11, 2018 by Angel12d

[RedVitC]

Don't have much time again, so some more quick points:

-Is this all the batwoman for the crossover? I feel like since they made such a big deal about introducing her they should have given her more to do in more than one episode

-Olicity reunion! Felicity's face during this exchange!

-They should have told Felicity immediately. 

-I love WestAllen and Iris with all my heart and more than any other ship, but while Iris did notice he was acting strange it wasn't until having that heart to heart conversation with real Barry that she started to believe. Given the same opportunity Felicity would have believed as well. I'll just chalk it up to the writers (writer?) wanting to add more turmoil for Felicity and using a clumsy way to do it (and Cisco just really loving his ship, lol)

-Predictably I missed Iris. I would have rather Iris and Felicity had that conversation, but it was an ok convo

-Maybe I missed it because I was distracted, but does Deegan have some personal vendetta with Oliver or Barry? Why would he randomly pick to do this with the book? Why not have everyone believe his theories or something

-Crisis on Infinite Earths next year? I wonder if they'd consider doing a 5 year time jump for the entire Arrowverse. It could certainly open up some storytelling possibilities, though I don't know how it would be received.

[Mellowyellow]

 So funny I finished lunch with Hubs and was wiping burger sauce off my fingers while I checked my phone as he paid the bill. 

Got the alert from @scarynikki12, went to look at Twitter and saw all these people posting "Love is too small a word" and I'm like "What the hell has fandom cooked up now? Is this some new campaign"

And then I saw what it was all about!

Omg!!!!!!!! Not sure when I'm getting over this. I have read the "Love of my life" speech so many times (pretty sure I've written it myself) but they made it canon!!!!!

Oliver you're the biggest mushiest sap to ever sap!!!!!!

This is so perfect after Felicity's "I love you more than a human being should love another human being" last week. 

Ahhhhhhhhhh *screams of happiness into the oblivion*

[srpturtle80]

OK so if Supergirl could see Batwoman’s identity through her mask because of her x-ray vision, then why couldn’t she figure out right away that Reign was Sam? Or that Agent Liberty is Ben Lockwood? 

[Primal Slayer]

1 minute ago, srpturtle80 said:

OK so if Supergirl could see Batwoman’s identity through her mask because of her x-ray vision, then why couldn’t she figure out right away that Reign was Sam? Or that Agent Liberty is Ben Lockwood? 

Probably lined with lead.

[scarynikki12]

Just now, Mellowyellow said:

 So funny I finished lunch with Hubs and was wiping burger sauce off my fingers while I checked my phone as he paid the bill. 

Got the alert from @scarynikki12, went to look at Twitter and saw all these people posting "Love is too small a word" and I'm like "What the hell has fandom cooked up now? Is this some new campaign"

And then I saw what it was all about!

Omg!!!!!!!! Not sure when I'm getting over this. I have read the "Love of my life" speech so many times (pretty sure I've written it myself) but they made it canon!!!!!

Oliver you're the biggest mushiest sap to ever sap!!!!!!

This is so perfect after Felicity's "I love you more than a human being should love another human being" last week. 

Ahhhhhhhhhh *screams of happiness into the oblivion*

I’m glad you figured it out considering my stupid phone autocorrected “smoochies” into “smoothies”. 

[apinknightmare]

I might've missed this because I zoned out in parts, but why is Monitor fixated on Deegan in particular having this book? Why did he get a second chance? Is it just because Jeremy Davies or what?

[Morrigan2575]

1 minute ago, scarynikki12 said:

I’m glad you figured it out considering my stupid phone autocorrected “smoochies” into “smoothies”. 

Haha! I thought you guys had some weird codeword for Olicity goodies 😁😂

[Writing Wrongs]

Amell looks so uncomfortable in The Flash suit. He walks like he has a permanent wedgie.

[scarynikki12]

Just now, Morrigan2575 said:

Haha! I thought you guys had some weird codeword for Olicity goodies 😁😂

Hmmmmmm...codeword. I think we can give it a try. What say you @Mellowyellow

[BkWurm1]

Changed my mind and thought it was a better comment in the Lot Crossover talk thread.  

Edited December 11, 2018 by BkWurm1

[lemotomato]

4 minutes ago, RedVitC said:

-Crisis on Infinite Earths next year? I wonder if they'd consider doing a 5 year time jump for the entire Arrowverse. It could certainly open up some storytelling possibilities, though I don't know how it would be received.

I read somewhere the EPs saying that this crossover will have consequences leading into next year's crossovers, so Crisis on Infinite Earths is a pretty good possibility. 

Don't know about the 5 year time jump, but Arrow has flashforwards 20 years into the future, so maybe there could be some Arrowverse crossover that way?

[Mellowyellow]

1 minute ago, scarynikki12 said:

Hmmmmmm...codeword. I think we can give it a try. What say you @Mellowyellow

 We need a code word for the other thing! I expect you to @ me the day it happens, if it happens 😉 

[JamieLynn832002]

I can sort of forgive the Iris knew right away thing because the people telling Felicity that weren't there for the conversation that convinced Iris and might not know what exactly happened. It's still not true and was clearly done to add to the Olicity angst but if that gets us that last Olicity scene, I can live with it.

[angora]

I'm intrigued by but not completely sold on Batwoman yet.  I liked Ruby better as Kate Kane than Batwoman, and my favorite parts with her with the moments she shared with Kara - I enjoyed how they alluded to Kara's own current situation (wrestling with whether or not she's doing the right thing refusing to give up her secret identity) as well as featured a little insight from both of them on each other due to some of the similarities they share.

Enjoyed the various Gotham digs, like Oliver's insistence that Batman wasn't real (and Barry later teasing Oliver by declaring that "he" couldn't compete with a badass like Batman) and Kara pointing out that Gotham doesn't really have a "good side of town."

Keeping the secret from Felicity was dumb, as was Cisco acting like Iris "just knew" all along when that was patently false, but the way they resolved it was nice, both with the Felicity-Caitlin conversation and Oliver's ending heart-to-heart with Felicity.

So even the hallucinogen is affected by this altered reality to think Barry and Oliver are one another?  That's the only reason I can think of for why they saw each other's nightmares, and it's a pretty stupid reason.

As we were gearing up toward the end of the episode, I was sure black-suit Superman was on his way, and there he was! 

Spoiler

I'm even more excited for him since we see from the Supergirl trailer that we'll apparently still have actual Superman around as well.

[BkWurm1]

11 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I might've missed this because I zoned out in parts, but why is Monitor fixated on Deegan in particular having this book? Why did he get a second chance? Is it just because Jeremy Davies or what?

I think because he's a loon that could "test" the heroes.  As to why Deegan swapped Barry and Oliver, he indicated it was a mistake.  He planned on getting Barry's powers himself but something about the book being more harder to use than expected (paraphrasing)

[tennisgurl]

31 minutes ago, KenyaJ said:

It's now my head cannon that when Oliver was mayor, he and the mayor of Gotham City engaged in some epic back-and-forth trash talking about whose city was shittier.

"Well, at least MY city wasn't taken over by a guy dressed like a Mexican wrestler from the 1950s and the remnants of Occupy Wall-Street!"

"Well, at least MY city never had half of it destroyed by a freaking Earthquake machine set up by a billionaire ninja!"

"Well, at least MY..."

[ParadoxLost]

The last part was trying too hard to make jokes and plot happen; but at least it moved along.

This part was bordering on unwatchably tedious.  It suffered all the same problems as P1 but chucked most of the amusing parts to introduce Batwoman and Gotham.

If they wanted to do a Kara/Oliver/Barry adventure, I wish they would just do that with AU versions of the other characters instead of forcing them briefly interact with their teams in ways that aren't organic but instead are stupid, OOC, and in service to plot.

[Trini]

Haaa! It was great how they recreated the Arrow intro with Grant. Was not expecting that. Didn't think they'd have a 'Barry'/Felicity kiss, but they snuck it in the intro.

That heart-to-heart would have made more sense between Iris and Felicity.

Why are they so committed to Killer Frost when they don't even let her be great?? I was actually about to be excited about an ice vs. ice fight, then they just knocked KF out. *confused*

Well, [redacted] must have loved that all the cute, quirky nerds got to hang out together.

Liked the intro to Gotham, and all the easter eggs. I was watching with a family member who was asking so many questions, so I didn't really get a good read of Rose's Kane/Batwoman. Will have to re-watch.

Loved the Kate/Kara scenes, though. They have the pieces for a female-led crossover, they just need to commit to being great.

90s Flash! Will we see him again??  :(

The fight scene with Flash/Reverse Flash/Arrow/Merlyn was great.

Nice cliffhanger.

Bringing up Oliver's past sexual exploits wasn't necessary here.

Edited December 11, 2018 by Trini

[BkWurm1]

7 minutes ago, angora said:

Enjoyed the various Gotham digs, like Oliver's insistence that Batman wasn't real (and Barry later teasing Oliver by declaring that "he" couldn't compete with a badass like Batman) and Kara pointing out that Gotham doesn't really have a "good side of town."

The armored car pulling up with armed guards only for it to be just a family out for a day of shopping was a really good bit of imagery.  One of the more clever things done in the episode.  

I couldn't help think that Gotham was Star City in 20 years.  And that kind of had me bummed so I didn't enjoy Gotham as much as I'd hoped.  Also, it seemed that there was an awful lot of the trio just standing around and not doing anything.  But guest stars did the same thing.  Nora Friese was a let down.  I thought at the very least she and Killer Frost would have an ice fight but she was just the reason Oliver blasted he and Barry with Scarecrow's fear gas.

The fights weren't bad nor were the things their imaginary enemies were saying but why Oliver and Barry were fighting the wrong worst fears was really off since the fear toxin has never before taking into account rewritten reality and only targeted the victim's personal fears and those would not have swapped with powers since Oliver still remembered his real life.  But they wanted them to have revelations about the other.  

I liked how RF and Malcolm were taunting them.  They can say any awful thing because they are the bad guys, so it doesn't bother me like it bothers me when characters that should have each other's backs don't.  I was not a fan of how fine everyone was with lying to Felicity.  Not shocked by Dig's or Curtis just going along with it but Barry, you should have spoken up against it at the very least.  I also don't really see it in Oliver's character to not tell her but I'll let it pass since he was already mixed up in how he was reacting last week and he is very good at compartmentalizing (except if she found out and of COURSE she's going to find out, he had to know it would hurt her and that's one thing I don't think he actively tries to do)

[Cthulhudrew]

Did MG forget that Diggle showed up in the prior episode of Elseworlds, or did Barry and Oliver conveniently forget to tell him at the time that they had swapped bodies? I'm already not into this episode, and I'm not even 3 minutes in.