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S37.E11: So Smart They're Dumb

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I'm definitely not into the speculation of people's relationships on the outside, that's just another reason not to want family/friend visits.  For me reality shows are all about the people in the game and how they interact within that.

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On 12/8/2018 at 7:52 AM, EllenB said:

I keep reading that Christian is such a brilliant person.  What is this based on?  He may be extremely good in his professional life and at certain types of puzzles, but that doesn't translate into brilliance in any other aspect.  He's glib, which I guess is a talent, but he's made several less-than-brilliant decisions in this game.  I feel like production is shoving this whole "brilliant nerd" thing down our throats, and Christian is happily playing along.

I think Christian's good social game is a surprise to the viewers, the players and of course production. Because there is the stereotype that a brilliant intellect is balanced by bad social interactions, so surprise and shock when the opposite happens, and therefore a good social game is deemed brilliant because it's not horrible as was first expected.

And yes, I'm with you that production is shoving the Christian concept or character down our throats, and he's not just playing along but giving them material to support it.

18 hours ago, Nashville said:

There are two types of people - the ones who believe such is impossible, and the ones who know such to be true - and the former insist on trying to mess with the lives of the latter, to make them conform to the former’s preconceptions.  :P

 

I like this vey much, it works in so many contexts others than the one you replied to here, I'm sure I'll use your wording sometime, somewhere :)

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10 hours ago, green said:

This was addressed to me and I have no idea what it even means.  Friends hang out together and play games, eat food, see movies.  Friends help each other in times of need.  Friends sit around someone's living room in the evening trying to figure out why we live and die.  But I have no idea how my friends make or should make me feel "special."  What the heck is "special."  More that they make me feel like, you know, well like their friend.  People to chew the fat with and vent about work.  People to plan trips with.  People to go hiking with.  People to laugh and cry with.  People to be nerds with.  People to be sports fans with.  People to discuss books with.  You know, humans being human.

Exactly. Gabby wanted Christian to make her feel special, make her feel she is good enough, smart enough, strong enough etc. This is why I think she doesn't just see him as a friend. Now she denies it of course, but it's not a coincidence that from all the strong duos in the game, the editors choose to imply that there are romantic feelings from Gabby to Christian. There was no reason to vote him out at final 8, she would have many more chances because everyone wanted him out. She said "seeing Christian and Emily together I realized I wasn't the only one he comforted". This sounds like alarm bells of jealousy to me...

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1 hour ago, himela said:

Exactly. Gabby wanted Christian to make her feel special, make her feel she is good enough, smart enough, strong enough etc. This is why I think she doesn't just see him as a friend. Now she denies it of course, but it's not a coincidence that from all the strong duos in the game, the editors choose to imply that there are romantic feelings from Gabby to Christian. There was no reason to vote him out at final 8, she would have many more chances because everyone wanted him out. She said "seeing Christian and Emily together I realized I wasn't the only one he comforted". This sounds like alarm bells of jealousy to me...

In the real world, I almost see this - although non-romantic jealousy is a thing, and I think it's perfectly normal to value and seek out unique bonds with people whether you're romantically attracted to them or not - my friends do make me feel special and valued, and I hope I do the same for them. Not in the same way I do my husband or my children, but it's not something that only exists for romantic relationships.

But this is Survivor. The game where Boston Rob banned his alliance from going on walks together without him, and you can get voted out for being seen talking to the wrong person. What Gabby saw wasn't 'oh, Christian treats everyone like he treats me, so I'm not special and that sucks'. She saw 'Christian treats everyone well, and that means he will get their votes at the end.' with probably a side of 'Christian treats everyone like he treats me, so maybe he secretly has alliances with all of them too'-style concern thrown in there for good measure. It didn't feel like jealousy to me, no matter how much the editors tried. 

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1 hour ago, MissEwa said:

In the real world, I almost see this - although non-romantic jealousy is a thing, and I think it's perfectly normal to value and seek out unique bonds with people whether you're romantically attracted to them or not - my friends do make me feel special and valued, and I hope I do the same for them. Not in the same way I do my husband or my children, but it's not something that only exists for romantic relationships.

But this is Survivor. The game where Boston Rob banned his alliance from going on walks together without him, and you can get voted out for being seen talking to the wrong person. What Gabby saw wasn't 'oh, Christian treats everyone like he treats me, so I'm not special and that sucks'. She saw 'Christian treats everyone well, and that means he will get their votes at the end.' with probably a side of 'Christian treats everyone like he treats me, so maybe he secretly has alliances with all of them too'-style concern thrown in there for good measure. It didn't feel like jealousy to me, no matter how much the editors tried. 

Well we will never know exactly how Gabby felt and what she thought. 

But I am asking again, the editors have a great season. Why, from all couples there have been in many seasons of Survivor, did they feel the need to create a non - existant romantic way of Gabby towards Christian? They had no reason to do that, the Gabby blindside was good enough.

In my opinion when Gabby says "I saw him with his gf and I realized I am not the only one he comforts" she means that she realized that he loves his gf and he has no intention to leave her. Thus the "true love" she was repeating.

I have been in that situation. When you have hopes for a guy but you see him with his gf, you kind of get jealous and mad, like "what more does she have that I don't?".

Edited by himela
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Gabby's talking head came after watching Christian comfort Kara and Alison back at the beach. I didn't sense any jealousy in her words or actions. I don't think that TPTB pointed to jealousy but that people are reading what they will into the scene. It is not like this is the first time people are doing that. I don't see jealousy, I see something else. You see jealousy and think that I am crazy. (shrugs)

I don't see Gabby as a woman scorned or jealous. I think she realized that Christian had better relationships with people, partly because he was openly comforting a decent number of folks around camp. She knew that Christian was getting more of the credit for moves that they both made. She saw that she was Stephen and Christian was JT and decided that it made more sense to boot JT. Davie decided he needed Christian in the game still and was able to thwart Gabby's play. Just like Nick saw that he needed Christian in the game back at the merge and told Christian about the vote.

ETA: Probst has commented in interviews after Gabby's boot that they love platonic friendships like Gabby and Christian so I am not buying that TPTB thought this was a showmanship or that either person had romantic interests.

Edited by ProfCrash
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On 12/7/2018 at 1:23 PM, Jextella said:

There is a secret scene video of Nick - prior to Carl's boot.  He says he'd like F3 to be himself, Angelina, and Mike with Davey as F4 and Carl F5.  He doesn't say anything about Gabby or Christian. 

I have no real grounds for saying this, but my feelings are that Nick wanted to go farther with Christian - maybe even go to the end together early on, but something happened PRIOR to the Carl boot that changed his mind.  Either he saw a stronger connection between Gabby and Christian than what the Mason Dixon had, or he realized Christian would be harder to beat. 

Either way, I do believe he felt close to Christian but something happened to rock that boat - before Carl's boot.   

Where Carl's boot is concerned, I feel Nick was angry with Christian on both personal and gameplay levels, but I think he was mostly pissed because Christian had lost ground with him in the loyalty department and he'd had enough - but also/mostly because the Carl boot screwed up his gameplay.

 

There was an earlier scene during an episode where Nick talks about Christian and Gabby's bond and that he would like to split those two up.  Same with Mike.  I think this was around the time of the Strike Force, some move being discussed that didn't include Gabby and both Carl and Mike realizing that relationship was more important to Christian than anyone or anything else.  
And that is where Christian screwed his game future.  

Edited by marys1000

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On 12/7/2018 at 3:16 PM, princelina said:

And Angelina can at least say that she was on the outs and kept herself safe.  But that's why I think they are both goats.  To me the goat is the person I can sit in my living room and confidently say "That person will get no votes."

Depends on who she is sitting with dont you think?

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59 minutes ago, himela said:

Well we will never know exactly how Gabby felt and what she thought. 

But I am asking again, the editors have a great season. Why, from all couples there have been in many seasons of Survivor, did they feel the need to create a non - existant romantic way of Gabby towards Christian? They had no reason to do that, the Gabby blindside was good enough.

In my opinion when Gabby says "I saw him with his gf and I realized I am not the only one he comforts" she means that she realized that he loves his gf and he has no intention to leave her. Thus the "true love" she was repeating.

I have been in that situation. When you have hopes for a guy but you see him with his gf, you kind of get jealous and mad, like "what more does she have that I don't?".

I thought it was interesting in one post boot interview where Gabby is asked how she and Christian are now and her answer was something along the lines oh we'll be fine.

Dont remember the exact words but it sure wasn't like we are buds.  I just wonder what Christians game would have been like if he hadn't been so wrapped around protecting poor widdle Gabby.  I think it would have been....more
 

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I think that Angelina was a goat at about the time of the merge but I suspect that is changing. For all the obvious game play, Angelina can point to building relationships with the Davids she essentially took over Gabby's spot in the Davids, she has a good relationship with Mike, and she can point to clearly being at the bottom of the Goliaths but last far longer then the other Goliaths through her social play.

Angelina felt confident enough in her position to sit out two immunity challenges. She did that right after she received two votes from the Goliaths and when she knew that she was the diversionary target for Gabby. That says that she knew she was in a good spot with the Davids. I think that points more to some good social game play and less her being a goat or the Davids willingness to use her for a vote.

I am sure that that traits that have been highlighted are real but it could also be that as real as those traits are, Angelina is a nice enough person that people are ok with her acting that way because she is just being Angelina. People like me at work even though I have a long list of socially awkward traits. It is more that they know that I am not trying to be an ass but that my ADHD sometimes gets in my way and I at least identify when I have fucked up in a moment and I try and deal with the stupidity. Or that the things are all small things that I see as being bigger then they really are. So we are shown all of Angelina's cluelessly bad play and don't see the other stuff because it is not entertaining and there is more to show that is happening.

We have seen plenty of clueless goats over the course of the show, Angelina feels different. It feels like she has a bond with some folks and they are able to roll their eyes and laugh at her but they still like her. For all of the awful game play, we have not seen too many talking heads were people are like "Angelina is awful" or anything along those lines.

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12 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

... and [Angelina] can point to clearly being at the bottom of the Goliaths but last far longer then the other Goliaths through her social play.

That probably has less to do with her social game and more to do with the fact that the Davids recognized John and Dan as bigger threats. She does seem to have a decent relationship with Nick and she possibly did with Elizabeth for a hot second, but not with any of the other Davids. (ETA: I guess maybe Carl and her were close. Some people seem to think so, but I personally don't think we were shown anything to really indicate that.)

It's hard to tell really because we're being shown Angelina as a goat that people kinda laughed at and didn't particularly like but then apparently the post-show interviews are revealing that people did like Angelina.

Edited by peachmangosteen
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On 12/7/2018 at 1:43 PM, Mark2 said:

 

 

 

 

The two most common ways to describe the final vote of the jury are in essence:

1) you are handing someone a million dollars, and;

2) you are giving someone the title of "Sole Survivor"

Money is the more tangible thing than a title, so I think people tend to think more about the former.

to @Jersey Guy 87, I would certainly consider voting for Mike if he made F3.  While some people are motivated to win Survivor for the million dollars, his motivations skew toward competitiveness.  He wants to win.  And, let's face it, for the spotlight.  But to consideration numero uno, if I were on the jury, I may just ask him what would be his plans for the money.

 

I would agree with you on how to describe the final vote, but to me (if I was on the jury) I would switch the order.  First I'm giving someone the title of Sole Survivor and, btw, that includes a check for a million dollars.  Because I watch the show for the game, not for how much prize money is handed out.

That doesn't mean I'm right.  The rules don't seem to be very precise, you vote for the person you think deserves the title.  You can have any criteria you want to determine worthiness.

On 12/7/2018 at 2:52 PM, princelina said:

I would ask him what he did to deserve it, because I'm not seeing much.  "Playing the middle" may be his strategy but IMO it's unimpressive compared to everyone else (except maybe Allison)

I would agree - I have a tough time envisioning a FTC where I would think Mike should get my vote.  Not because he (presumably) has a lot of money but because he hasn't impressed me this game.

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On 12/9/2018 at 3:57 AM, MissEwa said:

This. I'm confused at the 'the Davids gave up the advantage' talk because the Davids haven't been a real alliance of any sort for a couple of votes now. 

The David's were voting strongly together until Gabby convinced Christian to join her in blindsiding Carl.  Prior to that, the only time any Davids had voted for a David was in the lost cause merge vote, when everyone voted for Elizabeth.

For the next 3 votes, all the Davids voted for Goliaths and  Davids also used an idol, a vote steal and an idol nullifier to protect other Davids.  The alliance might not have stayed that tight, but they voted together and had each other's backs up until Gabby and Christian's betrayal.

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On 12/9/2018 at 8:34 AM, Drogo said:

Khaleesi (11 but turning 12 this week)

Happy Birthday, Khaleesi!! 

 

Where has she been all season?  This is the first post I can remember seeing in a while.  

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3 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

The alliance might not have stayed that tight, but they voted together and had each other's backs up until Gabby and Christian's betrayal.

Its been discussed at length but there was no grand betrayal of a solid alliance. Carl had brought Angelina in - despite not needing to - and was feeding Gabby a decoy vote. She was our of his alliance before she voted against him. 

The Davids were super-tight for two votes. Other than that, there have been cross-tribal alliances and shenanigans going on since the merge. I feel like for as much as we complain about the 'x strong' stuff and are bored by seasons where one tribe picks off another, that is still our baseline for how things should work, so when it doesn't it's surprising. 

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Gabby correctly read Angelina’s willingness to sit out two immunity challenges as highly problematic. If Angelina was so comfortable with the Davids, it was a sign that Angelina had moved into the alliance some how. And when Angelina willingly sits out an immunity challenge while Christian is telling Gabby to vote for Angelina gabby read that as she had been replaced. 

Look, the Davids did nothing to try and save Elizabeth. Nick, Calr and Davie saved Christian because it helped their game, not because they wanted to take Christian to the finals. Voting out John got rid of a threat and flushed an idol in the process. The next vote removed Dan,  another physical threat. So pretending that Nick, Carl, and Davie were David strong is ridiculous. They were aiding their games.

Gabby and Christian read where they were in the David alliance and decided to do something about it. It was fair game. 

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2 hours ago, MissEwa said:

Its been discussed at length but there was no grand betrayal of a solid alliance. Carl had brought Angelina in - despite not needing to - and was feeding Gabby a decoy vote. She was our of his alliance before she voted against him. 

The Davids were super-tight for two votes. Other than that, there have been cross-tribal alliances and shenanigans going on since the merge. I feel like for as much as we complain about the 'x strong' stuff and are bored by seasons where one tribe picks off another, that is still our baseline for how things should work, so when it doesn't it's surprising. 

Feeding a decoy vote to one alliance member you didn't completely trust to keep her emotions in check, and go along, is a far cry from blindsiding 4 of the 6 people in your alliance, including 3 members who had spent advantages to save Christian.  

Plus, the fact that Gabby was so willing to turn on Carl to save Angelina shows she wasn't really trustworthy to begin with.  

Gabby would have had the right to be a bit peeved with Carl and the others shutting her out of the vote, but her response was totally disproportionate and Christian foolishly went along with it.     

They should have just gone along with the Alison vote, eliminating someone who the players seem to think is a threat.  The Christian and Gabby would have all sort of options with 5 Davids and 3 Goliaths, and Angelina caucusing with the Davids.   

The could have put out feelers to Nick and Davie about whacking the "Godfather" Carl, who was getting a bit full of himself  and might have been seen as a threat.  Or they could have gone after any one of Nick, Carl or Davie, with Kara. Mike and Angelina.  There would have  been so many possibilities.   

Instead, Gabby put huge targets on her back and Christian's back.   Both alliances now wanted both of them out.   

I think Angelina's willingness to sit out 2 immunity challenges was mainly based upon a) wanting to win points with the jury with the rice deal.  b) thinking she had little chance of winning anyway c) Having not won a single reward challenge and being hungry d) Realizing that the others don't see her as a big threat.  If she had a little more self awareness, I'd say she is counting on them seeing her as a goat, at this stage. 

I don't think Angelina had any reason to think she was in a rock solid alliance with the Davids.  It seems like she sort of just left the Goliaths like a rat leaving a sinking ship.  I suspect the Davids saw her as an extra vote, and potential goat, not a trusted alliance member. 

Edited by Bryce Lynch
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2 hours ago, MissEwa said:

Its been discussed at length but there was no grand betrayal of a solid alliance. Carl had brought Angelina in - despite not needing to - and was feeding Gabby a decoy vote. She was our of his alliance before she voted against him. 

Oh, my! There was a betrayal by Christian (purely instigated by Gabby, whose ickle feelings had been hurt) of Nick and Davie and Carl - who previously had blown through three advantages to keep the Davids numbers up against the Goliaths, as said, and had saved Christian with those advantages, and who were an alliance of five who pulled in another (desperate) number in Angelina for that vote, and wished to keep Gabby from squawking hysterically in protest and then going and telling her new bestie Alison the vote was for her.

She wasn't out of the alliance, she was out of the loop in that vote. Purely for a bit of sanity and for strategic reasons. Christian mishandled the whole thing, and then went along with her overreaction and torched his entire game. Now he's out of the alliance, and now she is out of the alliance, her closest ally-partnership, and the entire game - because she could not be trusted to not go off emotionally if she heard something she didn't like.

All to save wet Alison. She killed the alliance, as well as her own and Christian's game - but they should have just trusted her with being cool with that vote?! I don't think so.

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something i noticed... Mike's family visit seemed a little lame. Does he even like his boyfriend?? they sidehugged and that's basically it. I was excited for another tai-and-mark-like reunion giphy.gif

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Except that Carl said that he was targetting Gabby after Alison. And who would Carl target after Gabby?

Why should Gabby vote out Alison, who she likes, while keeping Angelina and Mike in the game, both who have close conenctions to Nick, or Kara who had reason to be connected to Calr or Davie? 

So Gabby should have gone along with Carl’s plan because, why? david strong? When Carl has signaled that he did not trust Gabby and that Angelina was replacing her in the alliance.

Christian was tight with Gabby, they had formed an alliance early on in the game. They had played the entire game together. Gabby presented Christian with solid facts. Angelina seemed to be allied wiht Nick, Carl, and Davie. The Davids were lying to an alliance mate after deciding, without discussion, who to vote out for the last two votes. And it turns out that Gabby was right, Carl was targetting her. 

Alison at least wanted to work with Gabby and Christian. There was a potnetial path forward with Alison, but no longer with Carl. 

I get a chuckle out of how the boards whims change. Alison dithers about making a move but sticks with the Goliaths and everyone groans. Nevermind that the Goliaths had the numbers and the best move would be to Pagong the Davids, that is boring to watch so we all bitch when Alison doesn’t make things more interesting by flipping.

Then Gabby sees that she is at the bottom of her alliance. She sees that seeral alliance members are lying to her. She targets one of those alliance members and people complain that it was an awful move. 

I think it was a good move for Gabby and Christian because they were next on the block. Gabby didn’t need to target Christian this episode, that was a quesitonable move. But the Carl vote was solid for Gabby and Christian. 

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17 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

I think it was a good move for Gabby and Christian because they were next on the block. Gabby didn’t need to target Christian this episode, that was a quesitonable move. But the Carl vote was solid for Gabby and Christian. 

Yeah, it's really working out for them.

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1 hour ago, violet and green said:

Yeah, it's really working out for them.

And Gabby going home a week later and Christian a week after that would be better? We complain when people don’t take risks that might benefit them and we complain when they do. Gabby read the signals correctly, Carl was gunning for her after Alison was voted out. Gabby saw how Angelina was incorporated into the Davids. Gabby saw that Angleina sat out two immunity challenges, after being the target at several tribal councils. Gabby knew that Carl had told Christian to lie to her. Gabby knew that Carl was willing to sacrifiec the Davids he didn’t like, such as Elizabeth. So why should Gabby think that keeping Carl, voting out Alison, and hoping that Angelina was not replacing her.

Christian knew that his closest ally was being marganilized and that he was already seen as a target. Christian loses Gabby and Christian is screwed. 

So they took out Carl and did a crappy job of dealing with the aftermath. Gabby made a bad move targetting Christian and Christian handled the aftermath with Nick badly. Davie is a cool customer and protected Christian against everyones move. Mike and Angelina played Christian perfectly by getting rid of Gabby. 

So yeah, it didn’t work out well but at least they are playing the game and not accepting being at the bottom of the alliance. I can respect that. 

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12 hours ago, marys1000 said:

Depends on who she is sitting with dont you think?

Sure, but unless the F3 is her, Mike and Allison I think it's a moo point.

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2 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

Alison at least wanted to work with Gabby and Christian. There was a potnetial path forward with Alison, but no longer with Carl. 

Well, be that as it may, they - at Gabby's instigation - ended up burning off both Nick and Davie.

They are now - well, only Christian is left - are at the mercy of people who have blown off intended moves at least twice while Strike Force 6 existed, have gunned for Christian on several occasions, are wishywashy and ultimately Goliath- strong players, still, while having decimated their numbers advantage. That's not what I'd call a path forward.

It was a foolish, emotion-driven move that bit them both in the butt. I don't complain about lack of moves, but I do complain about dumb moves that kill your game and negatively affect others, who won't forget their game being ruined.

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4 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Feeding a decoy vote to one alliance member you didn't completely trust to keep her emotions in check, and go along, is a far cry from blindsiding 4 of the 6 people in your alliance, including 3 members who had spent advantages to save Christian.  

I've been thinking about this for two weeks, and I still wonder if Christian's best play wasn't to go to at least Nick right before tribal council and say, "Look, we're voting with the Goliaths to take out Carl. This is Gabby's idea, and I'm going along with it, but I didn't want you to be blindsided by it." At this point, everyone should understand "as long as it's not me" [/Sandra] and a gamer like Nick likely would've, as well.

Because I don't think Nick was that upset by the Carl vote on its face -- he was upset with Christian's betrayal, and being lied to and blindsided by someone he thought he trusted. "We used a ton of advantages to save you" also contains the unspoken "and then you lied to me."

But I also think Nick and Davie broke trust with Christian, in Christian's eyes, by going along with Carl's "feed Gabby a decoy vote" plan. If Gabby was Christian's primary alliance -- which they at least had to suspect -- they had to know that would rankle him a little, asking him to lie to his closest alliance.

It continues to bother me that in that entire two hours we never -- not once -- saw any communication between Christian and Nick or Davie. It was like they were on opposite tribes. I know Nick is upset now (and Davie is strikingly mature about it), but was Nick upset then? Did he realize or care that Christian was annoyed at having to lie to Gabby? Did he think Christian would do whatever they said?

My point is was this truly a misunderstanding of broken trust, where Nick was truly planning on being all in on Mason-Dixon until final 4 or whatever, or is Nick now irritated that the guy he was planning on kicking to the curb in about two votes was one step ahead of him?

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Nick was upset at the Carl vote - he expressed this - from a numbers point, for one. All the other stuff aside, he was angry that Gabby and Christian blew the numbers advantage they as a group of original Davids had put so much effort into clawing back successfully. Regardless of who you may or may not vote out shortly, it was a disastrous move for everyone's game, aside from the original Goliaths.

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3 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

And Gabby going home a week later and Christian a week after that would be better? We complain when people don’t take risks that might benefit them and we complain when they do. Gabby read the signals correctly, Carl was gunning for her after Alison was voted out. Gabby saw how Angelina was incorporated into the Davids. Gabby saw that Angleina sat out two immunity challenges, after being the target at several tribal councils. Gabby knew that Carl had told Christian to lie to her. Gabby knew that Carl was willing to sacrifiec the Davids he didn’t like, such as Elizabeth. So why should Gabby think that keeping Carl, voting out Alison, and hoping that Angelina was not replacing her.

Christian knew that his closest ally was being marganilized and that he was already seen as a target. Christian loses Gabby and Christian is screwed. 

So they took out Carl and did a crappy job of dealing with the aftermath. Gabby made a bad move targetting Christian and Christian handled the aftermath with Nick badly. Davie is a cool customer and protected Christian against everyones move. Mike and Angelina played Christian perfectly by getting rid of Gabby. 

So yeah, it didn’t work out well but at least they are playing the game and not accepting being at the bottom of the alliance. I can respect that. 

They had time to make moves down the line.  Gabby's emotional outburst strategy, pretty much doomed the 2 of them immediately.  

Every player has a tough road to FTC, with obstacles in their way.  Just because you don't have a clear and easy path to the million dollars, it doesn't mean making idiotic moves that will take to a 0.0% of winning makes sense.  

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10 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Feeding a decoy vote to one alliance member you didn't completely trust to keep her emotions in check, and go along, is a far cry from blindsiding 4 of the 6 people in your alliance, including 3 members who had spent advantages to save Christian.  

It's not the same, but it is definitely an alliance-destroying move to feed someone a decoy vote. I'm really struggling to see how Gabby was supposed to react. 'Gee. They left me out of the vote but it's for my own good and I'm sure all will be fine'? 

Okay, hypotheticals. Let's say last week goes one of two other ways (taking Carl at his word that she was his next target after Alison, because I think all evidence points to that anyway)...

1. Christian tells Gabby about the decoy vote and she goes along with it to keep the David numbers advantage. Alison goes home. The week after, Carl uses Angelina and Mike to vote her out. She tries to get him out but doesn't have the numbers. She goes out at exactly the same time as she did. The commentary here is 90% 'What an idiot!' 'Why didn't she make a move earlier?' 'GOD, she's just like Laurel.' 'The second she knew her alliance was feeding her decoys she should have flipped.' etc. etc. 

2. Christian doesn't tell her about the decoy vote. And then this week one of two things happen:

a) She's (understandably) pissed and worried about her position in the Davids. The Davids reassure her that it was just because she was close to Alison, and that she's still with them, and not to worry. She believes them, goes along with whatever decoy vote they suggest, gets blindsided and goes home in exactly the same position she did. 99% of board comments this time are as above, but even more vicious because WHAT AN ABSOLUTE WET FISH RIGHT?

OR

b) She's (understandably) pissed and tries to flip and take Carl out in retaliation. Without Alison, she doesn't have the numbers and goes home. At the exact same time she did anyway. Generously, 75% of the commentary here is as above with 25% being a slightly less scathing 'well, she tried'. 

YES, she didn't have to flip on Christian this week. She would have stayed another few days - probably - if she hadn't done that, but she had to flip on Carl last week or she was gone this vote almost certainly. The only difference is she would have gone out being considered a wimp and a wuss and a failure who didn't make the moves she had to. 

6 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

And Gabby going home a week later and Christian a week after that would be better? We complain when people don’t take risks that might benefit them and we complain when they do. Gabby read the signals correctly, Carl was gunning for her after Alison was voted out. Gabby saw how Angelina was incorporated into the Davids. Gabby saw that Angleina sat out two immunity challenges, after being the target at several tribal councils. Gabby knew that Carl had told Christian to lie to her. Gabby knew that Carl was willing to sacrifiec the Davids he didn’t like, such as Elizabeth. So why should Gabby think that keeping Carl, voting out Alison, and hoping that Angelina was not replacing her.

Christian knew that his closest ally was being marganilized and that he was already seen as a target. Christian loses Gabby and Christian is screwed. 

So they took out Carl and did a crappy job of dealing with the aftermath. Gabby made a bad move targetting Christian and Christian handled the aftermath with Nick badly. Davie is a cool customer and protected Christian against everyones move. Mike and Angelina played Christian perfectly by getting rid of Gabby. 

So yeah, it didn’t work out well but at least they are playing the game and not accepting being at the bottom of the alliance. I can respect that. 

All of this, but especially the bold. I'm not sure there's any way Gabby could have played the last two weeks that wouldn't have ben complained about endlessly.

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30 minutes ago, MissEwa said:

I'm really struggling to see how Gabby was supposed to react. 'Gee. They left me out of the vote but it's for my own good and I'm sure all will be fine'? 

That is probably how Carl thought she'd react, since it's basically how she reacted the last time it happened.

Remember everyone, Gabby was the only David left out of the John vote.  She was technically blindsided too.  (Granted, her part in that vote wouldn't have changed if she'd been read in to the plan, since her vote was for Angelina and was part of the back-up split vote.  But I'm sure she would have liked to have known what the hell was going on beforehand.)  Her getting left out of yet another vote, while Angelina and Kara (two of the opposition) were included instead showed how little she meant to Carl's alliance.

So Gabby did what anyone on the bottom of an alliance should do: she flipped.  And since she brought Christian along, she flipped with power.

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9 hours ago, violet and green said:

Well, be that as it may, they - at Gabby's instigation - ended up burning off both Nick and Davie.

They are now - well, only Christian is left - are at the mercy of people who have blown off intended moves at least twice while Strike Force 6 existed, have gunned for Christian on several occasions, are wishywashy and ultimately Goliath- strong players, still, while having decimated their numbers advantage. That's not what I'd call a path forward.

It was a foolish, emotion-driven move that bit them both in the butt. I don't complain about lack of moves, but I do complain about dumb moves that kill your game and negatively affect others, who won't forget their game being ruined.

They didn't burn off Nick and Davie, Nick and Davie had no intention of keeping Gabby or Christian. Gabby and Christian were at the bottom of that alliance. Carl was dictating votes and Nick and Davie were supporting that behavior. Neither Nick or Davie was talking to Christian before a voting decision was made. Toss in Angelina being brought into the alliance by Nick and Carl and now Gabby and Christian are fifth and sixth.

So do you try and remove the person who is directly threatening you, Carl, or do you accept being fifth and sixth, or maybe even worse? Christian might have been better off if he had talked with Nick, for all we know it was Carl and Davie targeting Gabby and Christian, but it could be that Christian thought that telling Nick would lead to the info getting back to Carl. Even if Christian waited to just before the tribal, Nick could have said something at tribal that tipped off Carl.

Gabby's mistake was targeting Christian. Gabby should have waited until Mike and Angelina were gone. Why Mike and Angelina? Because they appear to be tight with Nick and maybe Davie. I honestly don't know who Davie is tight with. I think Davie's problem, if he makes it to final, is that he has played too clinical of a game and too under the radar. He can point to a lot of great game play but doing so at final tribal, when people have their mind set on particular path, is a daunting task. But Mike and Angelina are tight with Nick. Angelina is the good first out, since she replaced Gabby in the alliance. Then Mike then target Christian.

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19 hours ago, Eolivet said:

My point is was this truly a misunderstanding of broken trust, where Nick was truly planning on being all in on Mason-Dixon until final 4 or whatever, or is Nick now irritated that the guy he was planning on kicking to the curb in about two votes was one step ahead of him?

I definitely think it was more, 'How dare you make a move against me before I got to make a move against you!" anger from Nick tbh. But who knows since, like you said, we never got anything between Nick/Christian in the two hour ep. Ugh, so annoying!

3 great posts in a row from @MissEwa, @SVNBob, and @ProfCrash. I completely agree.

Edited by peachmangosteen
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6 hours ago, MissEwa said:

It's not the same, but it is definitely an alliance-destroying move to feed someone a decoy vote. I'm really struggling to see how Gabby was supposed to react. 'Gee. They left me out of the vote but it's for my own good and I'm sure all will be fine'? 

Okay, hypotheticals. Let's say last week goes one of two other ways (taking Carl at his word that she was his next target after Alison, because I think all evidence points to that anyway)...

1. Christian tells Gabby about the decoy vote and she goes along with it to keep the David numbers advantage. Alison goes home. The week after, Carl uses Angelina and Mike to vote her out. She tries to get him out but doesn't have the numbers. She goes out at exactly the same time as she did. The commentary here is 90% 'What an idiot!' 'Why didn't she make a move earlier?' 'GOD, she's just like Laurel.' 'The second she knew her alliance was feeding her decoys she should have flipped.' etc. etc. 

2. Christian doesn't tell her about the decoy vote. And then this week one of two things happen:

a) She's (understandably) pissed and worried about her position in the Davids. The Davids reassure her that it was just because she was close to Alison, and that she's still with them, and not to worry. She believes them, goes along with whatever decoy vote they suggest, gets blindsided and goes home in exactly the same position she did. 99% of board comments this time are as above, but even more vicious because WHAT AN ABSOLUTE WET FISH RIGHT?

OR

b) She's (understandably) pissed and tries to flip and take Carl out in retaliation. Without Alison, she doesn't have the numbers and goes home. At the exact same time she did anyway. Generously, 75% of the commentary here is as above with 25% being a slightly less scathing 'well, she tried'. 

YES, she didn't have to flip on Christian this week. She would have stayed another few days - probably - if she hadn't done that, but she had to flip on Carl last week or she was gone this vote almost certainly. The only difference is she would have gone out being considered a wimp and a wuss and a failure who didn't make the moves she had to. 

All of this, but especially the bold. I'm not sure there's any way Gabby could have played the last two weeks that wouldn't have ben complained about endlessly.

But, if they had just gone along with voting off Alison, and pretended they were still good with Carl, Davey and Nick, they would have had so many more options.  They could easily recruit Mike and Kara, and possibly Angelina.  

The path they took left them with no good options.

I blame Christian more than Gabby.  She didn't have any likely path to Sole Survivor no matter what "big moves" she made.  Christian had a good chance, but he put an alliance of 2 ahead of an alliance of 4 (or 5 if you count Angelina) when the one alliance member he went with was a nutjob with had zero loyalty to him.

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How do they recruit Mike and Angelina? Mike and Angelina had a preexisting relationship with Nick. Mike and Nick had been in an alliance together. Angelina had joined the David alliance, replacing Gabby? So what do Christian and Gabby offer Mike and Angelina that Nick, Carl and Davie already had offered? Losing Alison cost Gabby and Christian someone who would work with them with no hope of replacing that person.

Christian is a long shot to get to the final and he knows it. He has been a target since the merge. Losing someone willing to vote with him would have been bad. Nick, Carl and Davie were not acting like they were working with Christian. So Christian goes along with voting off one person willing to work with him knowing that his "alliance" had him in fifth place and would target him over Angelina.

Christian votes with Gabby hoping to preserve two people willing to work with him, Gabby and Alison, while removing someone who was targeting two of the votes that Christian was relying on.

I get that people wanted to see the Davids stick together and finish of the Goliaths because it was fun to watch but it was unrealistic to expect that. Carl held grudges, why he didn't get along with Elizabeth and would have voted out Gabby after Alison. Davie did not seem to have a real relationship with Christian or Gabby. Heck, I am not sure that Davie had a relationship with anyone other then Carl. I think everyone else is a pawn to Davie and he is not bonded with anyone else playing. The Davids worked together for a few votes because they had to in order to not get Pagoned, not because they were a tight unit. 

Carl knew that, it is why he was freezing out Gabby. Gabby and Christian knew it, it is why the read the signs that they read properly. 

I suspect more of the anger over the Carl vote it is blew up the story line that so many folks were invested in and that people are annoyed that the "cry baby" screwed up the story line.

Gabby screwed things up by moving on Christian too early. I don't think the Carl vote really hurt Christian that badly, he was the target and is going to remain the target. If Gabby had played a bit smarter then things would have worked better but she got greedy and made a move that should have waited a few votes, or at least one vote. Christian had to use his idol by the five otherwise he was guaranteed the final four and who knows how that immunity goes or how good he is at making a fire. 

Edited by ProfCrash
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5 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

I definitely think it was more of uh, 'How dare you make a move against me before I got to make a move against you!" anger from Nick tbh. But who knows since, like you said, we never got anything between Nick/Christian in the two hour ep. Ugh, so annoying!

3 great posts in a row from @MissEwa, @SVNBob, and @ProfCrash. I completely agree.

 

Hey Peachie!  @PEACHMJANGOSTEEN  IMO, you sure are right on the money! This forum has some really superb writers here. People who have great opinions and can provide solid reasons and arguments to back up their opinions.  I'm often quite amazed to see so many people whose writing seems to be at a level near Professional and I really enjoy being able to participate along side so many of these people.

I hope you don't mind me calling you "Peachie". I know that was a nickname that people used to call Jiffy PoP for many years. But, it was a long time ago and I really don't know if that nick was used as a term of affection or in a nasty way. I seem to get the impression it was kind of neutral. But if you don't like it, I won't do it again.

I don't know why. But I have never read any of @SVNBOB's posts before. I may be mistaken or I may just not remember. But I usually remember people who make a serious impact on me. I have read and enjoyed @MISSEWA for a very long time now. Many others as well!  

Edited by MisterBluxom

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@KimberStormer (or someone else in the know, who can remember recent seasons better than me?) -- is this the first "voting block" season since Cambodia? These don't feel like alliances, and they're not Hannah's "trust clusters" from mvgx. The post-David alliance implosion seems to have splintered people into voting blocks. Other than that supposed final 4, no group of more than two seems that tight. Naviti Strong was obviously an alliance season, and HHH seemed more alliance-y as well. But with how easily these groups have crumbled, these haven't felt like alliances to me.

Honestly, this is starting to remind me of one of those Big Brother seasons, with few players and tons of floaters. Alison and Kara are floaters. Mike is a classic floater, who's always drifted to where the power is. After last vote, Christian is a floater (or Toast if he doesn't win immunity, as someone once famously said in the archetype thread). Davie sort of resisted a final 4 alliance to keep his floater options open. Only Nick and Angelina seem like "I'm locking down this group, this is my group." This seems unusual to me, but maybe my memory is just bad.

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I am not sure that there ever was a David alliance and more of a David voting block. The Goliaths wouldn't work with any of the Davids so the Davids were forced to work together. Once the Goliaths were forced to work with the Davids, the Davids returned to their tight alliances, with Nick in between.

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1 hour ago, ProfCrash said:

How do they recruit Mike and Angelina? Mike and Angelina had a preexisting relationship with Nick. Mike and Nick had been in an alliance together. Angelina had joined the David alliance, replacing Gabby? So what do Christian and Gabby offer Mike and Angelina that Nick, Carl and Davie already had offered? Losing Alison cost Gabby and Christian someone who would work with them with no hope of replacing that person.

Christian is a long shot to get to the final and he knows it. He has been a target since the merge. Losing someone willing to vote with him would have been bad. Nick, Carl and Davie were not acting like they were working with Christian. So Christian goes along with voting off one person willing to work with him knowing that his "alliance" had him in fifth place and would target him over Angelina.

Christian votes with Gabby hoping to preserve two people willing to work with him, Gabby and Alison, while removing someone who was targeting two of the votes that Christian was relying on.

I get that people wanted to see the Davids stick together and finish of the Goliaths because it was fun to watch but it was unrealistic to expect that. Carl held grudges, why he didn't get along with Elizabeth and would have voted out Gabby after Alison. Davie did not seem to have a real relationship with Christian or Gabby. Heck, I am not sure that Davie had a relationship with anyone other then Carl. I think everyone else is a pawn to Davie and he is not bonded with anyone else playing. The Davids worked together for a few votes because they had to in order to not get Pagoned, not because they were a tight unit. 

Carl knew that, it is why he was freezing out Gabby. Gabby and Christian knew it, it is why the read the signs that they read properly. 

I suspect more of the anger over the Carl vote it is blew up the story line that so many folks were invested in and that people are annoyed that the "cry baby" screwed up the story line.

Gabby screwed things up by moving on Christian too early. I don't think the Carl vote really hurt Christian that badly, he was the target and is going to remain the target. If Gabby had played a bit smarter then things would have worked better but she got greedy and made a move that should have waited a few votes, or at least one vote. Christian had to use his idol by the five otherwise he was guaranteed the final four and who knows how that immunity goes or how good he is at making a fire. 

Mike and Angelina have seemed like free agents.  

The David alliance spent 3 advantages protecting Christian.

Christian had a lot of better options in the Carl vote.

a) He could have pushed for Gabby to be in on the vote.  "She is emotional and will freak out after the vote...."

b) He could have not told Gabby and then patched things up 

c) He could have told Gabby, but conviced her they should go along with the plan.  She could then act a little angry, but pretend to accept the Davids' explanation and apology, making them feel comfortable.  It would have been much easier for Gabby and Christian to mount an insurrection, if Carl, Davie and Nick all thought they were onboard.

It probably would have been easy to build a consensus against Carl at 8.

If not, worst case they go to Final 6 with Carl, Davie, Nick and Angelina.  Christian has an idol.  Gabby could be seen as a goat and the 3rd member of the Final 3 is chosen by fire making. 

Christian was valuable to the David alliance because he was loyal and they liked and trusted him.  Going along with Gabby took all of that away, and made him nothing but a huge threat, who they can't trust.

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11 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Mike and Angelina have seemed like free agents.  

The David alliance spent 3 advantages protecting Christian.

Christian had a lot of better options in the Carl vote.

a) He could have pushed for Gabby to be in on the vote.  "She is emotional and will freak out after the vote...."

b) He could have not told Gabby and then patched things up 

c) He could have told Gabby, but conviced her they should go along with the plan.  She could then act a little angry, but pretend to accept the Davids' explanation and apology, making them feel comfortable.  It would have been much easier for Gabby and Christian to mount an insurrection, if Carl, Davie and Nick all thought they were onboard.

It probably would have been easy to build a consensus against Carl at 8.

If not, worst case they go to Final 6 with Carl, Davie, Nick and Angelina.  Christian has an idol.  Gabby could be seen as a goat and the 3rd member of the Final 3 is chosen by fire making. 

Christian was valuable to the David alliance because he was loyal and they liked and trusted him.  Going along with Gabby took all of that away, and made him nothing but a huge threat, who they can't trust.

Angelina was not acting like a free agent on the Alec or Alison vote. Angelina was a part of the conversation for both votes and was clearly acting as an ally. Nothing about her body language or actions said she was anything other then an ally. Mike is more of a free agent but one with strong ties to Nick and Angelina.

Christian has no relationship with Carl and Davie. We did not see Christian talking to Davie the episode that Davie played the idol, we saw Nick relaying info between Davie and Christian. The only time we saw Christian talking strategy with Carl and Davie was after the John vote and leading into Dan vote. So you can repeat that they played all these things to save Christian all you want but that does not mean that they were 1) in an alliance with Christian 2) loyal the Christian 3) working with Christian. Carl and Davie made the decision to target Alec without talking to Christian. Carl and Davie made the decision to target Alison without talking to Christian.

Nick acted to try and save Christian because they had an alliance. Davie saved Christian with his idol because Davie needed the numbers for his game. It was not because he liked Christian or was allied with Christian but because Davie needed the numbers so it was in his best interest to save Christian. Just like Davie told Christian that Christian was the target this past week because he wanted to keep Christian in the game as a target. Davie did what he did to help his game. Carl did what he did to help his game. Carl wanted to build his resume, hence the bing when the nulifier was played.

If Carl and Davie were in an alliance with Christian, they would have talked to Christian and included him in their decision making. But they didn't.

Christian is not obligated to protect them. This is a game with one winner. Taking out Carl, who was threatening one of Christian's allies (Gabby) and one of Christian's votes (Alison) made sense for Christian. Christian did not agree to give Carl a pass at sometime because Carl used an advantage on Christian.

If Carl and Davie had not done what they did, Christian would have been gone. Probably Davie and Carl soon after, because the Goliaths were picking off the Davids. Let's say the Goliaths target Davie after Christian, Davie plays his idol and Carl goes home because the Goliaths split the vote. Then Davie is gone next week. So Carl and Davie bought themselves a few tribals with their move. It was strategy, not alliance based.

And that is fine, it was a good play. But Christian owes them nothing. Carl and Davie should have included Christian and Gabby. They didn't. That was bad play on Carl and Daie's part. They showed their hand. They were socializing with Angelina and strategizing with Angelina. Angelina sat out two immunity challenges because she felt comfortable. Arguing that she was some how or another a free agent is laughable.

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On 12/8/2018 at 2:35 AM, SVNBob said:

The ability to play Survivor well is yet another kind of genius

Whoa- let's not gild the lily.  Genius is a rarefied status.  It does not require even a modicum of genius to play survivor well and conversely playing survivor well is not an indication of genius. 

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1 hour ago, Eolivet said:

@KimberStormer (or someone else in the know, who can remember recent seasons better than me?) -- is this the first "voting block" season since Cambodia?

Maybe?  I don't really know what "trust cluster" is, I thought it was just Hannah and Zeke making fun of the internet for not liking the term "voting bloc" and using an even more annoying phrase.  Honestly this season is reminding me more of Gabon -- even seeing many voting blocs seems pretty optimistic read of the situation, it's more like everyone out for themselves.  It's interesting that it's happening without a Sugar/Abi-Maria figure, the 'goat' who never got the memo that she's supposed to let other people drag her around and not play her own game, and lays waste to the island instead.

I'm really enjoying the back-and-forth about Gabby and Christian and Carl -- everyone's got good points, great debate!

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32 minutes ago, BarneySays said:

Whoa- let's not gild the lily.  Genius is a rarefied status.  <snip>

Sorry. I changed this post and then I deleted it because I just got too far off base.

Edited by MisterBluxom

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7 minutes ago, KimberStormer said:

I don't really know what "trust cluster" is, I thought it was just Hannah and Zeke making fun of the internet for not liking the term "voting bloc" and using an even more annoying phrase. 

It was Hannah's phrase, not Zeke's. She characterized it as being less defined than an alliance, but built on something stronger than common interest, like a voting bloc (to no one's surprise, Adam said she was wrong afterwards -- that that season was alliances, and not some made-up word).

Is Angelina not a toned down version of the Abi/Sugar figure? What I can't figure out with Angelina is they've edited her into this caricature, but other than some mild grumbling from her tribe mates, she doesn't seem to be hated. I wonder if she's more like Debbie from Kaoh Rong/Game Changers, the character with the bizarre stories who viewers are supposed to laugh at, who takes herself very seriously. I mean, "I negotiate my way out of parking tickets and get discounts at restaurants with my debating skills!" isn't that far off from "I should've done the beam! I was a gymnast!"

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1 hour ago, ProfCrash said:

Angelina was not acting like a free agent on the Alec or Alison vote. Angelina was a part of the conversation for both votes and was clearly acting as an ally. Nothing about her body language or actions said she was anything other then an ally. Mike is more of a free agent but one with strong ties to Nick and Angelina.

Christian has no relationship with Carl and Davie. We did not see Christian talking to Davie the episode that Davie played the idol, we saw Nick relaying info between Davie and Christian. The only time we saw Christian talking strategy with Carl and Davie was after the John vote and leading into Dan vote. So you can repeat that they played all these things to save Christian all you want but that does not mean that they were 1) in an alliance with Christian 2) loyal the Christian 3) working with Christian. Carl and Davie made the decision to target Alec without talking to Christian. Carl and Davie made the decision to target Alison without talking to Christian.

Nick acted to try and save Christian because they had an alliance. Davie saved Christian with his idol because Davie needed the numbers for his game. It was not because he liked Christian or was allied with Christian but because Davie needed the numbers so it was in his best interest to save Christian. Just like Davie told Christian that Christian was the target this past week because he wanted to keep Christian in the game as a target. Davie did what he did to help his game. Carl did what he did to help his game. Carl wanted to build his resume, hence the bing when the nulifier was played.

If Carl and Davie were in an alliance with Christian, they would have talked to Christian and included him in their decision making. But they didn't.

Christian is not obligated to protect them. This is a game with one winner. Taking out Carl, who was threatening one of Christian's allies (Gabby) and one of Christian's votes (Alison) made sense for Christian. Christian did not agree to give Carl a pass at sometime because Carl used an advantage on Christian.

If Carl and Davie had not done what they did, Christian would have been gone. Probably Davie and Carl soon after, because the Goliaths were picking off the Davids. Let's say the Goliaths target Davie after Christian, Davie plays his idol and Carl goes home because the Goliaths split the vote. Then Davie is gone next week. So Carl and Davie bought themselves a few tribals with their move. It was strategy, not alliance based.

And that is fine, it was a good play. But Christian owes them nothing. Carl and Davie should have included Christian and Gabby. They didn't. That was bad play on Carl and Daie's part. They showed their hand. They were socializing with Angelina and strategizing with Angelina. Angelina sat out two immunity challenges because she felt comfortable. Arguing that she was some how or another a free agent is laughable.

An alliance is not situation where you care about your alliance mates more than yourself.  It is a mutually beneficial arrangement, that the members join to advance their games. That is exactly what the Davids had, and Carl, Davie and Nick were doing all the heavy lifting.

Christian was included in the Alison vote, Gabby wasn't.

Technically, nobody owes anybody anything in Survivor.  But, when your alliance spends 3 advantages to save you twice, and then you blindside them, you should expect some very, negative consequences.

Christian had all sorts of sound options to deal with Gabby being left out of the vote at 9.  Instead, his big brain decided to go along with Gabby's suicide pact.

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For all the talk of Gabby having more options if she'd gone along with the Alison vote, and how dumb a move it was and how she burned all her allies, she put together the majority vote in this episode, and that was without her biggest ally on board. She only went home because of an idol. 

I feel like getting rid of Carl did break the game wide open. He really was the 'head of the snake' and without him Nick, Davie and Angelina didn't really seem to have a cohesive plan at all. They may have pulled Mike in for a final four pact, but Davie was bailing on that before they were even back at camp. Gabby had Christian, Alison, and Kara and depending on who she targeted I feel like Christian could have pulled over Davie or Mike. Maybe she would have been idoled anyway by the idol I keep forgetting Nick has, but I don't think she would have had a problem getting numbers, at least to tie it up. 

Her mistake was Christian, not Carl. 

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1 hour ago, MissEwa said:

Gabby...only went home because of an idol.

An idol she knew about, no less.

Random side-note; it was interesting how Gabby led the way hiking to what seemed like a disproportionate number of challenges.  Post-merge, I started to like her a lot.  But to say she only went home because of an idol is looking at only part of the picture IMO.

If she hadn't led the efforts on such a backstabbing move, Alison would have likely been voted out instead of either her or Christian.  To her credit, she swayed (manipulated?) two Davids to vote against the best interest of keeping their numbers. 

Where she went wrong IMO (disloyalty aside) and why it's not only because of an idol that she messed up (whether being voted out that episode or not) is: a) the aforementioned Alison-for-jury vote was already on the table, and agreeable for at least one Goliath swing vote b) the Christian vote would have booted her closest (or only) true ally, c) it demonstrated a serious lack of trustworthiness that any side could see plain as day, d) she shared the fact (with people predisposed to want her main alliance destroyed) that her target has a HII, thus increasing the chance of a split vote, e) she didn't consider the fact that her Carl vote alienated people who could save her in future votes and/or vote for her at the end, f) she apparently was naive enough to believe that nobody would tip off Christian (kudos to the editors, I was on the edge of my seat waiting for someone to tell him)

All things considered, her days were numbered with or without the idol play.

Edited by Mark2
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18 hours ago, Eolivet said:

I've been thinking about this for two weeks, and I still wonder if Christian's best play wasn't to go to at least Nick right before tribal council and say, "Look, we're voting with the Goliaths to take out Carl. This is Gabby's idea, and I'm going along with it, but I didn't want you to be blindsided by it." At this point, everyone should understand "as long as it's not me" [/Sandra] and a gamer like Nick likely would've, as well.

Because I don't think Nick was that upset by the Carl vote on its face -- he was upset with Christian's betrayal, and being lied to and blindsided by someone he thought he trusted. "We used a ton of advantages to save you" also contains the unspoken "and then you lied to me."

But I also think Nick and Davie broke trust with Christian, in Christian's eyes, by going along with Carl's "feed Gabby a decoy vote" plan. If Gabby was Christian's primary alliance -- which they at least had to suspect -- they had to know that would rankle him a little, asking him to lie to his closest alliance.

It continues to bother me that in that entire two hours we never -- not once -- saw any communication between Christian and Nick or Davie. It was like they were on opposite tribes. I know Nick is upset now (and Davie is strikingly mature about it), but was Nick upset then? Did he realize or care that Christian was annoyed at having to lie to Gabby? Did he think Christian would do whatever they said?

My point is was this truly a misunderstanding of broken trust, where Nick was truly planning on being all in on Mason-Dixon until final 4 or whatever, or is Nick now irritated that the guy he was planning on kicking to the curb in about two votes was one step ahead of him?

Nick wasn't planning on Mason Dixon till F4 or till the end though. Christian wasnt in even his ideal F4 which is why I say he can Fuck off with his hypocritical anger about the Carl vote. It's ok to want to blindside Christian and Gabby and take out Allison but how dare you take out who I want to keep. Only nick can do that 

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

An alliance is not situation where you care about your alliance mates more than yourself.  It is a mutually beneficial arrangement, that the members join to advance their games. That is exactly what the Davids had, and Carl, Davie and Nick were doing all the heavy lifting.

Christian was included in the Alison vote, Gabby wasn't.

Technically, nobody owes anybody anything in Survivor.  But, when your alliance spends 3 advantages to save you twice, and then you blindside them, you should expect some very, negative consequences.

Christian had all sorts of sound options to deal with Gabby being left out of the vote at 9.  Instead, his big brain decided to go along with Gabby's suicide pact.

Yeah Christian should've done what Nick and his cronies wanted and let Nick take him out soon after SMH

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2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

<snip>Technically, nobody owes anybody anything in Survivor.  But, when your alliance spends 3 advantages to save you twice, and then you blindside them, you should expect some very, negative consequences. <snip>

 

Quite right Bryce.

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32 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

An alliance is not situation where you care about your alliance mates more than yourself.  It is a mutually beneficial arrangement, that the members join to advance their games. That is exactly what the Davids had, and Carl, Davie and Nick were doing all the heavy lifting.

Christian was included in the Alison vote, Gabby wasn't.

Well... Christian was kinda included, in the sense CDN didn’t overtly plan to lie to Christian about the vote in the same way they intended to lie to Gabby - but not really, insofar as Christian had zero input into the targeting decision.  

My initial reaction was that Gabby’s decision to target Carl was executed a week too early, but upon reflection I’ve reconsidered that position.  Don’t get me wrong, I still think this particular voting fracas was instigated at least one week too early - but Carl was the one who jumped the gun, not Gabby.

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2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Christian had all sorts of sound options to deal with Gabby being left out of the vote at 9.  Instead, his big brain decided to go along with Gabby's suicide pact.

He went from having an alliance of five which included two idols, to being in an alliance of no-one but himself, with no idol. I can't imagine how dumb and cheated he feels, to have ruined his own good game like this for Gabby.

2 hours ago, MissEwa said:

For all the talk of Gabby having more options if she'd gone along with the Alison vote, and how dumb a move it was and how she burned all her allies, she put together the majority vote in this episode, and that was without her biggest ally on board. She only went home because of an idol. 

Well, that was hardly difficult, as her previous move  pissed off Nick - and Mike and Angelina and Kara and Alison have been keen to get Christian out for weeks. Hey, let's vote out Christian! Who in that group is going to say no to that?! As seen on the ep, it wasn't a hard sell.

Lucky for Christian, Davie wasn't on board. And thank god Nick is the owner of a big brain, and set up the Gabby alternate in case of idol play.

I am not against moves, but time them.

She didn't only go home because of idol play - she went home because her previous daft and spiteful move (so poorly timed) left others sour, and because it was funny to get her out in that moment, rather than let her hang around.

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Could’ve, would’ve, should’ve.  It’s too hard to guess if this happens than that happens for sure.  If Gabby really felt she would be the targeted next than I really can’t blame her but I didn’t think she handled what happened after very well.  She should have pretended to be somewhat sorry that she blindsided the Davids (except Christian) instead she was bragging, “Don’t underestimate me”.  She was extremely upset about being left out of conversations and votes but then she acts like Nick and Davie should be ok about being blindsided and would be totally fine with working with her again.  If she wasn’t ok with it, why on earth would she think they should be.

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