S05.E08: What's Past is Prologue

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

Have only watched minutes of the new episode so far. Did they just say that it's only been THREE weeks since Grace the niece went into a coma???  What????

So I rewatched that section and it absolutely says that Cicada's niece was injured and he's been by side day and night for the last three weeks.  I'm so confused.  They had a Thanksgiving episode.  It couldn't possibly be only three weeks since the they stopped The Thinker but how else am I supposed to interpret that?

Of course we know that he actually hasn't been by her side all the time.  We saw him at work and we saw the Dr. Lady trying to keep him away, not to mention when he's off killing people.  

Unless they are saying that Team Flash has just sat on it's arse the last three weeks watching him?  I mean, that's not what they said but them misrepresenting it makes more sense than only three weeks have gone by.  

I hate how The Flash plays fast and loose with time remnants and time wraiths and all that.  The rules don't make a lick of sense.  It's worse on The Flash than even Legends and they literally break time and space every couple years, lol.  I will do my best just not to think about it.  

The episode was fine though I was getting a clip show vibe with a few missing scenes tossed in.  Nostalgia is enjoyable for the moment but it's ultimately a forgettable episode.  Though not sure when I'll forget how bad TC's Original Well's wig was.  

So Nora was Dawn in another time line.  And Barry deleted one of his kids as well as winking Baby Sara out of existence.  I'm still chuffed enough about that to take petty pleasure in it.  (Though I expect him to get his missing kid back once Nora tries to save her dad in the future.)

About Nora working with Eobard in the future.  I can see where she might have gone to see him because she was so desperate to know something about her dad and then him luring her back with the promise that he can help her save him altogether.  And like Thane pointed out, he's not even as big a bad as one of Barry Allen's Emo time remnants.  I can see where Nora could convince herself that perhaps their interests align on this project.  

I'm not sold on Sherloque being Eobard but if he is, he's an earlier version than the one she works with but that would explain how he knows to do all this stuff with Nora.  Either way I wonder if there was something in the water flashback Wells gave her.  Like a tracking thing.  

[Cthulhudrew]

8 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

So I rewatched that section and it absolutely says that Cicada's niece was injured and he's been by side day and night for the last three weeks.  I'm so confused.  They had a Thanksgiving episode.  It couldn't possibly be only three weeks since the they stopped The Thinker but how else am I supposed to interpret that?

Barry's time travel shenanigans, obviously.

[BkWurm1]

13 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Barry's time travel shenanigans, obviously.

Now that I've been thinking about it, I'm also baffled how they could have gotten to Nov in the time line we've been watching.  The only hint there's been a time jump to catch up to the same timeline as Arrow (which they will need for next week) is the Thanksgiving episode but we've seen nothing in the episodes that indicate more than a week for a week has passed on the show.  Certainly not 7 months. But also certainly not just three weeks.  I'm so confused.  

[Trini]

While I did like the callbacks and scenes from the earlier seasons, honestly, I was a bit underwhelmed and disappointed.

Good news is, Barry is no longer the dumbest speedster in the multiverse!

I hated this plot is Season 2's "Flash Back" and I ended up hating it here too; despite them having much better reasons. I was willing to go with it to get all the flashbacks, but then they had Barry and Nora interacting with people in the past  -- NO. Big mistake! It's always a big mistake.

There were so many people I was hoping to see and the only guest stars to return and shoot new footage were Harrison and Shipp/Nora and Henry. (Not sure about Teddy Sears/Zoom) I thought we spent way too much time with the past villains, and not enough with the Wests and Allens. Really? No Joe or Wally? Cecile? Captain Singh? Eddie? Julian? Linda?  ::SIGH::

It's been a question since the premiere that they still haven't answered, but what exactly is the status of Team Flash in the future?? Was there NO ONE to warn Nora about things?? Or tell her basic things like her grandmother was murdered by an evil speedster?

And the whole plan to stop Cicada was a bust. I didn't actually expect them to defeat him here, but I thought they'd at least be able to capture the dagger or something. But Team Flash is in the same position as at the start. And no, the Killer Frost is immune reveal doesn't count because they should have known that already.

There was other stuff that I liked but more comments later.

[Proteus]

I don't think Shirloque is Eobard. I think he just wants to find out what Nora is hiding.

[thuganomics85]

You know, my interest for Elseworlds keeps dropping every time The CW just recycles the same clip for each D.C. show.  Just freaking lazy.

Anyway, The Flash gets to its 100th episode and its... fine, I guess.  Certainly a step above the majority of the more recent episodes, but still strangely by the numbers, and didn't feel like a huge event, despite all the references and nostalgia to its past (a.k.a. the better days!)  But I guess it accomplished its main goal of reliving the early days and setting the season up for bigger things, so success!

Still, it was fun seeing Barry and Nora watch some of the classic moments from afar and take items from each moment in order to try and take out Cicada.  Of course, all of it ended up being a waste and he still almost killed them all had Killer Frost not frosted out or whatever we're calling it, but, hey, it's about the journey and not the destination, right? 

Definitely enjoyed seeing Eobard/Wells again.  Even knowing that nothing was going to happen, that brief scene with him and S1 Cisco was more chilling and intense than anything else this show has produced in quite some time.  Tom Cavanagh is way better at this than doing his goofy antics with the likes of Sherloque and whatnot.

I know Jesse L. Martin is still on leave, but it felt wrong that Joe was barely used in this episode.

Is Sherloque a Thawne in disguise?  I certainly hope so!

So, it is revealed that Nora is working with some variation of Thawne, although it certainly sounds like she didn't know about the whole killing Barry's mom thing.  Disappointed that they apparently couldn't get Matt Letscher back since his version is awesome in his own way, but I'm certainly not against more of Tom Cavanagh's take. Granted, I normally roll my eyes when past villains make grand returns, but considering how underwhelming most of the big baddies have been, I actually welcome the return of the Reverse Flash!

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, Proteus said:

I don't think Shirloque is Eobard. I think he just wants to find out what Nora is hiding.

See this is what I thought as well. I haven't gotten a sinister vibe from Sherloque, just an annoying accent. 

 

2 hours ago, Trini said:

Good news is, Barry is no longer the dumbest speedster in the multiverse!

Ha. I suppose that is something. I know the show will come up with a story to rationalize Nora teaming up with Thawne, but even in her time, she must have been told that he is insane even for some unbelievable reason she didn't know that he killed her grandmother. When the truth comes out, I hope we don't get one of those two minute anger and then make up scenes this show is famous for. I would like to see Barry and Iris lash out at Nora and really take her to task. Also, I don't like the writers blaming future Iris for Nora being a fool.

[ottoDbusdriver]

16 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I would like to see Barry and Iris lash out at Nora and really take her to task. Also, I don't like the writers blaming future Iris for Nora being a fool.

I'd prefer if Barry traveled to the future to follow Nora to see where she went.  Because Barry managed to stealthily do that when Nora went to the past to see her grandparents.  Which brings up the question -- how did Barry even know that Nora went back to the past prior to Barry's mother's death ?

And also for Barry to determine if Nora is evil or not in the future.

Edited December 5, 2018 by ottoDbusdriver

[Writing Wrongs]

What's the difference between Zoom and Reverse Flash? I keep getting confused on who is who.

[SimoneS]

49 minutes ago, Writing Wrongs said:

What's the difference between Zoom and Reverse Flash? I keep getting confused on who is who.

On the show, Zoom is Hunter Zoloman from Earth 2. He had a brief romance with Caitlin while pretending to be Jay Garrick from Earth 2. Zoom was killed by the Time Wraiths for abusing time travel using the Speed Force.

The Reverse Flash is Eobard Thawne who is from Barry's future. He went back to the past to kill Barry as a child, but after future Barry rescued child Barry from him, Thawne killed his mother instead. Stuck in the past Thawne killed Harrison Wells and took on his body and identity. Thawne then created the explosion to give Barry his speed and then helped him get faster so Thawne could use his speed to get back to the future. This version of Thawne was killed when Eddie Thawne his ancestor killed himself to save Barry. However, a version of Thawne still exists in the future. It is confusing.

Edited December 5, 2018 by SimoneS

[cambridgeguy]

4 hours ago, Trini said:

It's been a question since the premiere that they still haven't answered, but what exactly is the status of Team Flash in the future?? Was there NO ONE to warn Nora about things?? Or tell her basic things like her grandmother was murdered by an evil speedster?

That must have been quite the hand wave by Iris, Papa Joe, and the rest.  Your grandmother was murdered and your grandfather spent more than 10 years in prison being falsely accused of it before the real killer confessed.  Who was the real killer?  Um, Harrison Wells, a respected scientist with no past history of violence who had absolutely no reason to kill her.  Now please don't ask any logical followup questions.

6 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Though not sure when I'll forget how bad TC's Original Well's wig was.  

One thing that's consistent across all Arrowverse shows - horrible hair pieces.

2 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

You know, my interest for Elseworlds keeps dropping every time The CW just recycles the same clip for each D.C. show.  Just freaking lazy.

If they had shown a new clip there'd be people bitching about how not everyone watches all three shows and/or how they're giving too much away. 

[SimoneS]

6 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

That must have been quite the hand wave by Iris, Papa Joe, and the rest.  Your grandmother was murdered and your grandfather spent more than 10 years in prison being falsely accused of it before the real killer confessed.  Who was the real killer?  Um, Harrison Wells, a respected scientist with no past history of violence who had absolutely no reason to kill her.  Now please don't ask any logical followup questions.

It really is unbelievable. You would think that cursory search of the future Internet would have revealed this information. 

[legaleagle53]

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

On the show, Zoom is Hunter Zoloman from Earth 2. He had a brief romance with Caitlin while pretending to be Jay Garrick from Earth 2. Zoom was killed by the Time Wraiths for abusing time travel using the Speed Force.

The Reverse Flash is Eobard Thawne who is from Barry's future. He went back to the past to kill Barry as a child, but after future Barry rescued child Barry from him, Thawne killed his mother instead. Stuck in the past Thawne killed Harrison Wells and took on his body and identity. Thawne then created the explosion to give Barry his speed and then helped him get faster so Thawne could use his speed to get back to the future. This version of Thawne was killed when Eddie Thawne his ancestor killed himself to save Barry. However, a version of Thawne still exists in the future. It is confusing.

Especially since Black Flash killed the Matt Letscher version of Thawne in 1916 with some help from the Legends, something which the show apparently decided to ignore during the last crossover event.  Then again, time gets broken at the drop of a hat in the Berlantiverse, so viewers have pretty much thrown up their hands at the glaring inconsistencies and have just come to accept that the Berlantiverse is where the continuity fairy comes to die.

[GHScorpiosRule]

7 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

 

Can we get a Thawne/Thawne (TC/ML) team up in the future? That would be supremely awesome.

 

I've been wanting this since we saw that original Thawne's face was played by Matt Letscher, who played Cavanagh's son in Eli Stone.

7 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

 

So Nora was Dawn in another time line.  And Barry deleted one of his kids as well as winking Baby Sara out of existence.  I'm still chuffed enough about that to take petty pleasure in it.  (Though I expect him to get his missing kid back once Nora tries to save her dad in the future.)

 

No. Not Barry this time. As we've been told, Nora has been gallivanting back and forth, so I'm putting this all on her. She erased other self and

her twin, Don

. Though she didn't look confused when Season One Thawne called her Dawn.

7 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Barry's time travel shenanigans, obviously.

No, Nora's travel shenanigans. This one's NOT on Barry.

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

It really is unbelievable. You would think that cursory search of the future Internet would have revealed this information. 

I was just going to mention that. For all her saying she wanted to learn about her father, would go to the Flash Museum, it didn't occur to her to go read up stories about him? Do they not have libraries in her future? So, so DUMB.

[BeautifulFlower]

10 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

If you are going to time-travel back in time, how about going back 3 weeks and moving Orlin and his niece out of Central City on the night of the Star Labs satellite crash so Cicada is never formed and Gracie is never hurt.  That seems a lot simpler than this Rube Goldberg solution they came up with.

When Wells/Thawne and Barry were brought to the hospital on the day of the Star Labs accelerator explosion, was that the doctor that is teaming up with Orlin tending to them as they came into the Emergency Ward (the same doctor that gave Orlin the idea to 'kill all metas') ?

What's the deal with the Time Wraiths ?  Barry and Nora go back a couple of years for about 10 minutes and the time wraiths show up immediately, but Nora has been in the past for months with no sign of the Time Wraiths at all.

 

9 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Have only watched minutes of the new episode so far. Did they just say that it's only been THREE weeks since Grace the niece went into a coma???  What????

It hasn't been 3 weeks since the enlightenment. Grace went into a coma back in May. It's been 6 months as they celebrated Thanksgiving last episode. They just took note that Orlin has been visiting her for the past 3 weeks.

[Chicago Redshirt]

8 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

So I rewatched that section and it absolutely says that Cicada's niece was injured and he's been by side day and night for the last three weeks.  I'm so confused.  They had a Thanksgiving episode.  It couldn't possibly be only three weeks since the they stopped The Thinker but how else am I supposed to interpret that?

Of course we know that he actually hasn't been by her side all the time.  We saw him at work and we saw the Dr. Lady trying to keep him away, not to mention when he's off killing people.  

Unless they are saying that Team Flash has just sat on it's arse the last three weeks watching him?  I mean, that's not what they said but them misrepresenting it makes more sense than only three weeks have gone by.  

I think the time on the show corresponds loosely to real time. So the Enlightment happened around May-ish, and Cicada's niece has been injured since then.

In the previous episode, or roughly a week ago, Team Flash discovered Cicada's real identity. Since then, apparently, they have been somewhat monitoring Cicada's movements and discovered that he has been visiting his niece every day for the last three weeks. This doesn't speak to his whereabouts the last few months. So the two possibilities that make the most sense to me: 

1. After discovering Cicada's identity, Team Flash started monitoring Cicada/Grace to test their theory and look for weak links. Three weeks have elapsed and they've confirmed the pattern of him visiting niece daily over those three weeks.

2. The same, but only a week has passed, and they've checked records to see that Cicada had been visiting every day for the previous two weeks as well. 

[Misslindsey]

I have a stupid question. Wouldn't Nora helping defeat the various metas of the week mess up the future timeline as well? I am surprised that there does not seem to be any urgency to get Nora back to the future.

Now another stupid question, how old are Barry and Iris? I know Nora is suppose to be in her mid to late twenties, so I was wondering how old Barry and Iris are in relation to Nora. For me the cutesy father/daughter ending seemed off since I thought that they are somewhat around the same age.

[Lady Calypso]

1 hour ago, Misslindsey said:

Now another stupid question, how old are Barry and Iris? I know Nora is suppose to be in her mid to late twenties, so I was wondering how old Barry and Iris are in relation to Nora. For me the cutesy father/daughter ending seemed off since I thought that they are somewhat around the same age.

Well, they confirmed in this episode that Barry was 24 when he was struck by lightning (in 2013) so in 2018, he'd be 29. Iris is around the same age, I believe. So Nora is probably also in her late 20s. We know she comes from 2049 and she was born before Barry disappeared, so likely between 2020-2022, so she's between 27-29.

[BeautifulFlower]

I'm not a fan of Killer Frost being a key to defeat Cicada. This show is called The Flash, not Killer Frost.

Speaking of them mentioning she has no dark matter, thank you writers for reminding me that this is a retcon. Cisco and Julian made stuff to dampen her powers in season 3- that only works for people with dark matter. How did the dampening cuffs work on her last season? She has to be the most retconned character ever.

[jay741982]

14 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I think my favorite part was Barry and Wells No. 1 shouting at each other-Barry telling him he doesn’t get home; Wells shouting yes he does! Then Barry telling him to fix that whatzit and then he’ll be able to go home!😆😆😆

Not in this universe, But it did pave the way for Arrow, Flash, Legends, Supergirl...But Smallville had the best, gut wrenching 💯 episode. It still guts me and makes me 😭😭😭😭 Talk about high stakes.

Wasn't Smallville's 💯 when Clark told Lana about his Powers which resulted In Lex getting Lana into the Car accident that Killed her than Clark had time reversed so he didn't tell Lana but His dad died instead? I cried when Pa Kent died😭

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 minute ago, jay741982 said:

Wasn't Smallville's 💯 when Clark told Lana about his Powers which resulted In Lex getting Lana into the Car accident that Killed her than Clark had time reversed so he didn't tell Lana but His dad died instead? I cried when Pa Kent died😭

Yup. I know I wished it was the other way and that the Pink Pestilence had died instead, but I wasn't allowed to have nice things. Both Annette O'Toole and Tom Welling did a great job.

[Kate45]

2 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Well, they confirmed in this episode that Barry was 24 when he was struck by lightning (in 2013) so in 2018, he'd be 29. Iris is around the same age, I believe. So Nora is probably also in her late 20s. We know she comes from 2049 and she was born before Barry disappeared, so likely between 2020-2022, so she's between 27-29.

 

3 hours ago, Misslindsey said:

I have a stupid question. Wouldn't Nora helping defeat the various metas of the week mess up the future timeline as well? I am surprised that there does not seem to be any urgency to get Nora back to the future.

Now another stupid question, how old are Barry and Iris? I know Nora is suppose to be in her mid to late twenties, so I was wondering how old Barry and Iris are in relation to Nora. For me the cutesy father/daughter ending seemed off since I thought that they are somewhat around the same age.

Barry’s birthdate is March 14, 1989.

Iris’ birthdate is June 24, 1989. 

Currently, they are both 29, so I guess Nora is maybe 27 or so?

[Kate45]

44 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I'm not a fan of Killer Frost being a key to defeat Cicada. This show is called The Flash, not Killer Frost.

Speaking of them mentioning she has no dark matter, thank you writers for reminding me that this is a retcon. Cisco and Julian made stuff to dampen her powers in season 3- that only works for people with dark matter. How did the dampening cuffs work on her last season? She has to be the most retconned character ever.

So many retcons, that it’s hard to keep up. None of this story has ever made sense, but it’s funny that very few call out the how truly atrocious the writing of Killer Frost has always been. 

[Quark]

I liked it. It didn't quite feel like a show that had reached it's 100th episode, but it was a good episode.

It was nice seeing Eobard Wells again in the past, but does he have to be in the future too? He's basically the Malcolm Merlyn of The Flash.

I'm sad that neither Joe or Cecile were in the episode, especially Joe, but I suppose that goes to show how unwell the actor is. I do hope Jesse L Martin is improving. Maybe his absence has affected this season's storylines and that's why it's been rather messy, to say the least.

[Trini]

3 hours ago, Misslindsey said:

I have a stupid question. Wouldn't Nora helping defeat the various metas of the week mess up the future timeline as well? I am surprised that there does not seem to be any urgency to get Nora back to the future.

It's not a stupid question at all! Yes, Nora is screwing the timeline, and they have not given a good reason for the team to be so chill about her staying so long.

[jay741982]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Yup. I know I wished it was the other way and that the Pink Pestilence had died instead, but I wasn't allowed to have nice things. Both Annette O'Toole and Tom Welling did a great job.

Me too! I couldn't stand Lana by then and I loved Ma and Pa Kent. The scene where Jon died after looking at his son and wife one last time killed. Annette killed me with her wail of anguish and Tom made me Cry at the end of the next episode. Jon Kent was one of my Favorite TV Dads ever 

[Trini]

Some behind the scenes photos:

[mrspidey]

18 hours ago, shantown said:

If the Zoom chased Barry and Nora into the time travel tunnel, and the Time Wraith grabbed him - shouldn’t that have altered the past?

I think that was just setup to bring Black Flash back at some point. He was destroyed at the end of season 3, but now the time wraiths caught another Zoom so they can recreate BF. 

[Starry]

The episode was so so. I needed more poignant Iris/WA moments and I didn't like that characters like Joe and Wally got excluded. Joe especially has been on the show since the Pilot and they couldn't even be bothered to re-use some old footage to acknowledge his existence? The scene with Barry and Nora watching the Allens was great though.

Thawne is my favorite Flash nemesis but I feel like TC has lost his connection to the character. He plays him as a mix of s1 Thawne, Harry and Sherloque. Viewers shouldn't have to ask themselves if Sherloque is ET in disguise, it should be clear that they are two entirely different characters.

I don't know if it's my brain that can't get a grasp of this show version of time travel but how can s1 Thawne know about Savitar when from his POV Flashpoint hadn't happened yet? He didn't know that Barry's daughter is named Nora and not Dawn but knew about Savitar? I also agree that the time wraith catching Zoom in that moment should have resulted in a major timeline shift. Time wraiths kill time travelers.

Not a fan of Killer Frost being a key player in the fight against Cicada. I am completely over the character and I'm not looking forward to Flash being nerfed to support and prop her up.

Nora can't be that naive. She's trusting her dad's mortal enemy to guide her. This is not going to end well and she should have known better. I guess she's as gullible as her dad.

[Chicago Redshirt]

18 minutes ago, Starry said:

Thawne is my favorite Flash nemesis but I feel like TC has lost his connection to the character. He plays him as a mix of s1 Thawne, Harry and Sherloque. Viewers shouldn't have to ask themselves if Sherloque is ET in disguise, it should be clear that they are two entirely different characters.

I don't know if it's my brain that can't get a grasp of this show version of time travel but how can s1 Thawne know about Savitar when from his POV Flashpoint hadn't happened yet? He didn't know that Barry's daughter is named Nora and not Dawn but knew about Savitar? I also agree that the time wraith catching Zoom in that moment should have resulted in a major timeline shift. Time wraiths kill time travelers.

.....

Nora can't be that naive. She's trusting her dad's mortal enemy to guide her. This is not going to end well and she should have known better. I guess she's as gullible as her dad.

Thawne comes from what, the 31st Century? So he knows at least a version of how Flash's future/his timeline's past is supposed to play out. Just like Abra Kadabra knew about Savitar, it makes sense that Thawne would know at least something about him. Thawne made it sound like he had met Savitar face-to-face. Which is certainly possible given how much time-travelling any of them could do.  I mean, until this episode, it wouldn't make sense that a S1 Thawne would have encountered an experienced Barry back in the time frame of S1.

I could see a combination of Nora's naivety plus Nora's anger at her mom plus Eobard's charm and intelligence suckering Nora. Presumably, Eobard told Nora that she'd been chipped, plus taught her some Speedster 101. Those things plus some song and dance about how he had been wrongly accused or had since turned over a new leaf might go a long way.

[ottoDbusdriver]

41 minutes ago, Starry said:

Nora can't be that naive. She's trusting her dad's mortal enemy to guide her. This is not going to end well and she should have known better. I guess she's as gullible as her dad.

For good measure, Wells/Thawne is probably pulling a Darth Sidious from Star Wars and promising Nora that if she helps him (Wells/Thawne) he will save her dad/prevent Barry from disappearing in 2024 or some such nonsense.  And she's so gullible to fall for it because he's never going to deliver on his promise.

[catrice2]

I still don't like Nora.....Barry has not yet transitioned into "smart Barry" who could create Gideon.  I realized how much I enjoy Joe since he's been gone.  This show was boring....and I am tired of Tom Kavenaugh in any guise.  

I think it is ridiculous after all they went through that more questions were not asked and investigated when Nora arrived.  This season is just meh. 

[cambridgeguy]

51 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Thawne comes from what, the 31st Century? So he knows at least a version of how Flash's future/his timeline's past is supposed to play out. Just like Abra Kadabra knew about Savitar, it makes sense that Thawne would know at least something about him. Thawne made it sound like he had met Savitar face-to-face. Which is certainly possible given how much time-travelling any of them could do.  I mean, until this episode, it wouldn't make sense that a S1 Thawne would have encountered an experienced Barry back in the time frame of S1.

It's hard to be certain about this because of time travel shenanigans but S1 Thawne is near the end of his life - therefore, he should have a pretty complete knowledge of Barry's future.  If he thought that Nora should have been named Dawn then that's a pretty big clue that he should have a daughter named Dawn.  Now, Thawne himself changed the timeline when he killed Nora (and original Wells) and maybe Barry wouldn't have named his daughter after his mom if she hadn't died so maybe it was his actions that affected things but typically it's played as if any changes are Barry's (and now Nora's) fault.  I just hope if and when Barry tells Iris exactly what Thawne said then she'll be smart enough to pick up on it.

Edited December 5, 2018 by cambridgeguy

[Cthulhudrew]

11 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

One thing that's consistent across all Arrowverse shows - horrible hair pieces.

It's all been a setup for the real villain of the Elseworlds crossover-

 

The WIGMASTER!!!

It's about to get real hairy for Green Arrow and the Flash.
 

9 hours ago, Misslindsey said:

I have a stupid question. Wouldn't Nora helping defeat the various metas of the week mess up the future timeline as well? I am surprised that there does not seem to be any urgency to get Nora back to the future.

I vaguely remember her making a reference to it in the season premiere about why it was okay for her to help Barry with the satellite but not with Gridlock (because of vagaries in the historic record surrounding the circumstances of how certain crises were stopped). But then she was lying about a bunch of things in that episode, so she might have been making that up, too.

 

Also, speaking of Gideon- is this yet another voice for Gideon that we get in this episode? Why don't they just have Amy Louise Pemberton voice our favorite AI in all of its appearances at this point?

Edited December 6, 2018 by Cthulhudrew

[Simba122504]

21 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

It turns out Letscher was busy and couldn't film the end scene, so they allowed Cavanagh to take over the role. Which I don't mind, since I love Cavanagh's version of Eobard Thawne/Harrison Wells and will gladly welcome him to take on the role for the rest of the season. Listen; I've had to suffer through HR, a horribly retconned version of Harry and now Sherloque. Give me this!

I understand but it makes the scene not make sense. But hell none of the time travel stuff makes sense. Yeah,  Thawne/Wells will always be the best version of Wells.  

[Brinny]

I won't lie, I was a sucker for all the dad/daughter bonding stuff. What can I say, I'm a HUGE sap. I also think that GG and JPK play really well off each other. And it must be a tricky thing to do, because you need to have the right kind of chemistry/tone when playing that type of relationship and being just a few years off in age.

I'm with everyone else who doesn't understand how Nora didn't know how Barry's mom died. Nora knows who she's named after, she knows that her namesake is dead, why is that all she knows? Did Iris give her the same line she gave Barry in "Cause and Effect" saying that the first Nora died peacefully? Why wouldn't Joe tell her? Yikes. What is with the West-Allens and their unnecessary secret keeping? 

 

1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

It's hard to be certain about this because of time travel shenanigans but S1 Thawne is near the end of his life - therefore, he should have a pretty complete knowledge of Barry's future.  If he thought that Nora should have been named Dawn then that's a pretty big clue that he should have a daughter named Dawn.  Now, Thawne himself changed the timeline when he killed Nora (and original Wells) and maybe Barry wouldn't have named his daughter after his mom if she hadn't died so maybe it was his actions that affected things but typically it's played as if any changes are Barry's (and now Nora's) fault.  I just hope if and when Barry tells Iris exactly what Thawne said then she'll be smart enough to pick up on it.

 

Now, that is just smart. Let's see if Barry can apply that logic. 

 

1 hour ago, catrice2 said:

I still don't like Nora.....Barry has not yet transitioned into "smart Barry" who could create Gideon.  I realized how much I enjoy Joe since he's been gone.  This show was boring....and I am tired of Tom Kavenaugh in any guise.  

I think it is ridiculous after all they went through that more questions were not asked and investigated when Nora arrived.  This season is just meh. 

For real, how come Barry doesn't science anymore? 

39 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Also, speaking of Gideon- is this yet another voice for Gideon that we get in this episode? Why don't they just have Amy Louise Pemberton voice our favorite AI in all of its appearances at this point?

 

It sounded like Morena Baccarin to me, but I didn't go and confirm. I don't watch Legends, but do they ever explain why Gideon sounds different? Has Wally heard both Gideon's or just the one?

I thought it was okay for a 100th episode. I think you can tell how much Cavanaugh has both directing and playing Thawne. As much as all the different Wells annoy me (and we shall not speak of the Counsel of Wells), I do think that TC is very valuable to the show.

Edited December 6, 2018 by Brinny
one day, I will write a typo free post - watch for it!

[VCRTracking]

3 hours ago, Brinny said:

It sounded like Morena Baccarin to me, but I didn't go and confirm. I don't watch Legends, but do they ever explain why Gideon sounds different? Has Wally heard both Gideon's or just the one?

It also sounded like Morena to me too. The Gideon on the Waverider was created by the Time Masters in the future. I  find it funny that on the rare occasions WaveriderGideon is shown in human form like the episode they went into Rip Hunter's mind they get the actress who does her voice she looks like Baccarin!

Thought this was a good episode. I always love the "Back to the Future Part II/Prisoner of Azkaban" time traveling to another POV stuff.  I figure Thawne is manipulating Nora, with the promise of preventing her dad's disappearance.

Once they had Killer Frost save the day I thought "Oh boy, the Previously TV board is gonna LOVE this! :-P"

[adora721]

Forgot to mention that because we saw Nora super speed into Iron Heights in 2049, does that mean that specualtion about metas being outlawed is incorrect?  After all, if being a meta was illegal, Nora wouldn't be using her speed to get into a prison.

Many, incluing myself, speculated that the outlawing of metas was a possible reason for Iris to have put a dampening chip in Nora. 

[phoenics]

So I was 1000% right:  Nora is working with Thawne.  He taught her how to do the hand vibration thingee.  She's working with him.  *pretends to be shocked*

I did like the turn of phrase that EoWells made to PresentBarry:  He said "Nora... well... at least you've still got one of them..."

What a double entendre.  PresentBarry took that as "at least you've still got one of them" as in NORAS, and he got furious at EoWells all over again.  But I think EoWells meant it as "at least you've still got one of them" as in TWINS Dawn and Don Allen.

I suspected before this episode that Nora won't exist after she fixes some things in the timeline... I think it might go back to Dawn/Don Allen existing and Barry/Iris having to get to know someone brand new in Dawn, who will look just like Nora and have a twin, Don.  They'll have to mourn Nora and accept Dawn, who has her face.  Whew.

Or the writers will never give us the twins - but eventually B/I and Nora will find out that she wiped her twin out of existence - and that originally she was Dawn Allen.

Look at what messing with the timeline has wrought on this show.

And now the 100th episode has them all time traveling.  Again.  I don't know how time travel works on this show anymore.

I did enjoy seeing that WA scene done from afar... well done Grant and Candice.

I'm surprised Nora didn't want to ask Iris all about her killing Savitar - and does Nora know that PizzaFaceTimeRemnantBarry was Savitar?  She didn't look surprised - she seemed more surprised that Iris ultimately shot and killed him.

I liked going back to the past and all that - but it felt like they crammed so much in that it sped up some moments that should have had more depth and emotional punches (like Nora wanting to know her dad better, etc)... and I too felt like they could've included more Joe.  And Wally.  The show is so in love with the whole Team Flash thing that it really forgets that Joe was a huge reason S1 was so successful.  This 100th episode neutered it's emotional beats (Nora/Barry, past-Barry/Iris, no Joe/Barry)... 

Also no clue why Cisco sent the meta-tech to space when he shouldv'e sent it to that dead Earth.  No way Cicada would get that back - but plot I guess.

I wish the Nora-ReverseFlash thing hadn't been so strongly telegraphed - I guessed that eons ago.

Edited December 9, 2018 by phoenics

[Kate45]

3 hours ago, adora721 said:

Forgot to mention that because we saw Nora super speed into Iron Heights in 2049, does that mean that specualtion about metas being outlawed is incorrect?  After all, if being a meta was illegal, Nora wouldn't be using her speed to get into a prison.

Many, incluing myself, speculated that the outlawing of metas was a possible reason for Iris to have put a dampening chip in Nora. 

Well, Eobard was in jail, so that’s not completely off the table. I wonder why he’s in jail?

[Brinny]

2 hours ago, phoenics said:

I did like the turn of phrase that EoWells made to PresentBarry:  He said "Nora... well... at least you've still got one of them..."

What a double entendre.  PresentBarry took that as "at least you've still got one of them" as in NORAS, and he got furious at EoWells all over again.  But I think EoWells meant it as "at least you've still got one of them" as in TWINS Dawn and Don Allen.

I suspected before this episode that Nora won't exist after she fixes some things in the timeline... I think it might go back to Dawn/Don Allen existing and Barry/Iris having to get to know someone brand new in Dawn, who will look just like Nora and have a twin, Don.  They'll have to mourn Nora and accept Dawn, who has her face.  Whew.

Or the writers will never give us the twins - but eventually B/I and Nora will find out that she wiped her twin out of existence - and that originally she was Dawn Allen.

I didn't even think about the line having the double meaning of one of the possible twins not being in existence any more, I totally took it at face value that poor Barry had previously lost a Nora. Huh. 

Also, as much as I liked the nod to the comics with Thawne calling Nora "Dawn" and as much as I'd get a kick out of television Barry and Iris having tornado twins on the show (if for nothing else than to finally have the "We're gonna need more diapers" line uttered), I REALLY hope they don't call them Dawn and Don. It's SO stupid. Like, it kind of works in print, but you can't have that on screen. How dumb would Barry and Iris look? (Or is this a thing were Dawn and Don sound a lot different in an American accent? They don't right? It's the same name? Am I crazy?)

[jah1986]

I want to start by admitting I took time off from The Flash somewhere during the Killer Frost is our friend seasons so I don't remember everything. But when did the timeline reset that Eobard Thawne is even still alive? I thought when Eddie killed himself he erased Eobard so there was no reverse Flash. Did Barry change that when he went back in time and saved his mom? Or something else? This show and time travel makes my brain hurt.

I'm growing tired of Nora and I really have not warmed up to this latest version of Wells.  I did like the "old man" scene at the end though.

[adora721]

13 hours ago, Brinny said:

I didn't even think about the line having the double meaning of one of the possible twins not being in existence any more, I totally took it at face value that poor Barry had previously lost a Nora. Huh. 

 

I learned to not take such phrases at face value after S3's, "I am the future Flash", from Savitar. Talk about double meaning.

And I think @Phoenics is right that Thawne means that Barry still has one child, whereas Thawne knows Barry is supposed to have two.

Edited December 7, 2018 by adora721

[Kate45]

2 hours ago, jah1986 said:

I want to start by admitting I took time off from The Flash somewhere during the Killer Frost is our friend seasons so I don't remember everything. But when did the timeline reset that Eobard Thawne is even still alive? I thought when Eddie killed himself he erased Eobard so there was no reverse Flash. Did Barry change that when he went back in time and saved his mom? Or something else? This show and time travel makes my brain hurt.

I'm growing tired of Nora and I really have not warmed up to this latest version of Wells.  I did like the "old man" scene at the end though.

Thawne has been alive since 2x11 when he came back but was played by Matt L, who is my fave RF. 

This version of RF who still looks like Tom is likely just a time remnant. Or it could be the version from the timeline that we left in 1x15. That’s my best guess. He did appear in last year’s crossover, but I still don’t get why he existed or why he became a Nazi. 

[SimoneS]

16 hours ago, phoenics said:

I suspected before this episode that Nora won't exist after she fixes some things in the timeline... I think it might go back to Dawn/Don Allen existing and Barry/Iris having to get to know someone brand new in Dawn, who will look just like Nora and have a twin, Don.  They'll have to mourn Nora and accept Dawn, who has her face.  Whew.

I think that is exactly what will happen. Nora will successfully change the future so that Barry doesn't disappear, but she will wipe herself out of existence in the process giving Barry and Iris back their twins. 

 

14 hours ago, Brinny said:

I didn't even think about the line having the double meaning of one of the possible twins not being in existence any more, I totally took it at face value that poor Barry had previously lost a Nora. Huh. 

Also, as much as I liked the nod to the comics with Thawne calling Nora "Dawn" and as much as I'd get a kick out of television Barry and Iris having tornado twins on the show (if for nothing else than to finally have the "We're gonna need more diapers" line uttered), I REALLY hope they don't call them Dawn and Don. It's SO stupid. Like, it kind of works in print, but you can't have that on screen. How dumb would Barry and Iris look? (Or is this a thing were Dawn and Don sound a lot different in an American accent? They don't right? It's the same name? Am I crazy?)

The names Dawn and Don are pretty dumb. Maybe the babies will have nicknames. 

Edited December 7, 2018 by SimoneS

[Brinny]

7 hours ago, adora721 said:

I learned to not take such phrases at face value after S3's, "I am the future Flash", from Savitar. Talk about double meaning.

And I think @Phoenics is right that Thawne means that Barry still has one child, whereas Thawne knows Barry is supposed to have two.

 

Now, see, that one I gleaned. This I did not. 

 

9 hours ago, jah1986 said:

I want to start by admitting I took time off from The Flash somewhere during the Killer Frost is our friend seasons so I don't remember everything. But when did the timeline reset that Eobard Thawne is even still alive? I thought when Eddie killed himself he erased Eobard so there was no reverse Flash. Did Barry change that when he went back in time and saved his mom? Or something else? This show and time travel makes my brain hurt.

I'm growing tired of Nora and I really have not warmed up to this latest version of Wells.  I did like the "old man" scene at the end though.

I totally get why Hartley Sawyer said he needed to read the script a few times before it made sense. All this Thawne business is hella confusing. Especially when he’s played by both TC and ML. 

Edited December 7, 2018 by Brinny

[Jenniferbug]

20 hours ago, Brinny said:

I didn't even think about the line having the double meaning of one of the possible twins not being in existence any more, I totally took it at face value that poor Barry had previously lost a Nora. Huh. 

Also, as much as I liked the nod to the comics with Thawne calling Nora "Dawn" and as much as I'd get a kick out of television Barry and Iris having tornado twins on the show (if for nothing else than to finally have the "We're gonna need more diapers" line uttered), I REALLY hope they don't call them Dawn and Don. It's SO stupid. Like, it kind of works in print, but you can't have that on screen. How dumb would Barry and Iris look? (Or is this a thing were Dawn and Don sound a lot different in an American accent? They don't right? It's the same name? Am I crazy?)

Seriously. It is ridiculously stupid, and Barry and Iris don't seem like people who would give twins cutesy matching names.

I took the comment to mean that Nora once had a twin named Dawn. I thought he intentionally name dropped that to either taunt Barry with his superior future knowledge, or to dig at Nora (if she's aware of the erased twin). Or maybe the twin is deceased? 

Honestly I thought this season would have Nora coming back in time to try to prevent her dad from going missing, and then somehow she would figure out her presence erased her twin sibling in the future, so then we get the side quest of her in the past trying to fix things to get her twin back as well. I think that would have explained why Barry and Iris aren't freaking out about her remaining in the past- because they wouldn't want their future child erased nor would they want Nora to bear the guilt of that. 

I also figured Nora would be involved with RF, but figured he would be posing as the curator of the Flash Museum- someone who would have reason to know so much about the Flash and speedsters, and he would be in a position to mentor and bond with little Nora over the years, without her knowing who he truly was. It makes her look stupid to team up with him knowing that he is her dad's nemesis.

Really I think this whole season isn't bad, but would have benefitted a lot from making Nora younger. If she's 17 or so, a lot of her behavior can be chalked up to teenage emotions and lack of foresight. For her to be behaving like this at 27-29 is just odd. Are we sure that's how old she is? I don't remember if they confirmed her age or if she could be lying about it, thinking they'll treat her as an equal if they think she's older?

[phoenics]

2 hours ago, Jenniferbug said:

I took the comment to mean that Nora once had a twin named Dawn. I thought he intentionally name dropped that to either taunt Barry with his superior future knowledge, or to dig at Nora (if she's aware of the erased twin). Or maybe the twin is deceased? 

 

Based on the fact that EoWells/RF seems to remember Flash's history as more of the original canon, I feel like that EoWells was referrring to Nora as Dawn because he knew that Barry/Iris had Boy+Girl twins, thus Nora, who is a girl, had to be Dawn Allen.  If he thought there were girl+girl twins, why lead with Dawn Allen?  Why not say, "You must be Dawn... or Nora?" 

He didn't do that.  He looked at her and immediately thought Dawn and said it with certainty.  His next line after guessing the wrong name was "Time travel is a tricky thing..." because he KNEW that Nora was not from the original timeline and that stuff must have gotten screwed up - since she should've been Dawn Allen.  Not Nora West-Allen.

So it stands to reason that his very next comment about "at least you still have one" really was a double entendre of both "one of two Noras (daughter+mom)" and "one of two twins (Dawn/Don)".

I'm still unsure of it the show is going to erase Nora or not - and give Barry/Iris Dawn/Don back - or what... but this could be interesting.

Edited December 8, 2018 by phoenics

[mac123x]

Maybe I'm being unobservant, but how do we know that the dude in 2049 prison that Nora visits is Eobard Thawne?  Was he wearing the costume, or something?

 

I also wondered what exactly Gideon was implying when she said she knew Nora, and that she was "the 5th member recruited for the reconstituted Legion --" Barry cut her off.  Legion of DOOM, perhaps?

[GHScorpiosRule]

16 minutes ago, mac123x said:

Maybe I'm being unobservant, but how do we know that the dude in 2049 prison that Nora visits is Eobard Thawne?  Was he wearing the costume, or something?

 

Because Barry let him go free at the end of last year’s cross-over. Of course he could be a remnant.🤷‍♀️