S37.E09: Breadth-First Search

[30 Helens]

On 11/23/2018 at 9:26 AM, truthaboutluv said:

Yeah I've kind of had a feeling that Nick was the one instrumental to these last two tribal councils. I do think he's playing an excellent low-key game. Not seen as an obvious physical threat and the Goliaths are so consumed by this idea of Christian as this genius mastermind ready to take them all down, they're completely ignoring the threat that is Nick.

His multiple alliances also might come in handy for him down the line because rather than viewing him as sneaky, it seems many have a decent bond with him and seem to like him. Might play well for him if he makes it to the end in terms of jury management. 

Unless he’s taking credit for other people’s work, the article @Jextella linked to certainly confirms Nick’s role as the main strategist. Even the annoying alliance nicknames had a purpose! I want Nick as my lawyer.

And great point about Christian drawing all the heat. The other players think Nick is riding coattails. Little do they know he  (and Davey) designed the coat and just gave it to Christian to wear. 

[SVNBob]

46 minutes ago, 30 Helens said:

The other players think Nick is riding coattails. Little do they know he  (and Davey) designed the coat and just gave it to Christian to wear. 

More like they took the coat Christian was already wearing (and Gabby appears to be riding) and tailored it to fit their needs...but still a great metaphor.

[MisterBluxom]

It would appear that Nick is the smartest one of them all when it comes to "Outplaying". It would seem he learned the lesson in the first few days very well and now he is poised to win this entire season. Of course, you just can't tell about this game. So much depends on luck and the lack of luck. So many ways the best player can get voted out and so many ways the worst play can get lucky and stay. But Nick sure does seem to have the biggest advantage at this time.

[peachmangosteen]

8 hours ago, 30 Helens said:

The other players think Nick is riding coattails. 

Which is not a good thing lol. He's gonna have to make sure he can get the jury to believe he really was masterminding things and that's usually pretty hard. Easier for a man than a women though, so he has a chance.

Edited November 26, 2018 by peachmangosteen

[Lamb18]

8 hours ago, 30 Helens said:

Unless he’s taking credit for other people’s work, the article @Jextella linked to certainly confirms Nick’s role as the main strategist. Even the annoying alliance nicknames had a purpose! I want Nick as my lawyer.

I was thinking the same thing while reading these posts this morning. What a strategic mind!

[ProfCrash]

26 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

Which is not a good thing lol. He's gonna have to make sure he can get the jury to believe he really was masterminding things and that's usually pretty hard. Easier for a man than a women though, so he has a chance.

Exactly. People thinking you are riding other peoples coat tails is going to hurt Nick. So far, Nick has made some great moves but none of them have been purely Nick driven.

Nick worked with Mike and Angelina to vote out Natalie. Suggesting Natalie was not exactly a tough call and encouraging people to vote her out was not exactly hard.

Nick worked with Davey and Christian to vote out John but Nick had no clue what Davey was going to do. Davey's play of the idol was Davey's play, made possible by the info that Nick brought him, but still Davey's play. Nick and Christian proved to Davey that they trusted him by voting for John without being given a definitive reason for doing so.

Nick worked with Davey and Carl to find the vote steal. That advantage could have ended up with any of the three, Nick was the one to dig it up but it was a team effort. The decision to use the vote steal was also a team effort.

The Dan vote was very much coordinated between all the Davids and involved the use of two peoples advantages. Both people made sure that they got credit for using their advantage, which is fine, but it still required coordination.

So while I will agree that Nick has played a solid social game, he clearly developed a good relationship with Mike and Alec, he has not been the leader as much as a co-conspirator. Davey was behind the Natalia vote out after the swap and can be closely tied to the John and Dan vote.

I actually think the Davids might be entering into dangerous territory here. The five are working together and working together well. They have bonded over the Goliaths unwillingness to work with the Davids and what the Davids see as disrespect. The bond they are forming could bite them all in the butt. There is some room for some seriously bitter Davids if the final five is not all Davids. They have been forced to work together, and managed to work past differences (there is no indication that the Davids really see each other as bff). They have done well with the help of Alec and Angelina trying to manage the jury by telling the Davids about the upcoming votes. And then Kara's not so subtle hint that Dan had another idol. 

What happens if Christian doesn't play the idol to help Davie, Carl or Nick after the three of them worked to keep Christian safe? Do you think Carl will see that as legit good game play or feel burned? This is the Carl who was so upset over Jessica's ouster he was willing to vote out Elizabeth. Do we really think Gabby will be ok if she is voted out with votes from any of the Davids before the rest of the Goliaths?

The real problem for Nick is that his flexibility could lead him into trouble if he chooses to work with the Goliaths to remove David threats, like Christian and Davey. That could easily lead to people seeing Nick as a more serious back stabber and engender bad feelings.

I don't buy into any tribe strong when the merge hits, you need to be willing to work with the other tribe to vote out the threats in your tribe. But I also see that there is danger for the minority tribe that makes a move that moves them to equal or even majority control. The tight bond is going to be hard to break without losing votes. Davey can talk all he wants about it being a game, and it is, but it is still a game with emotions attached to real people. If there is an appearance of betrayal to the people that you have worked with so closely, it will bite you in the ass. The Davids are probably there.

[kikaha]

If Nick really is pulling the strings, some of the others know it.  Christian e.g. states as much in that secret scene, calling him a genius to Gabby (who now knows as well).  Carl and Davie must also be aware: they coordinated their moves and votes this last TC.  Assuming Nick makes it to F3, several jurors at least will know, and probably talk with the others.  The new FTC format could help Nick even more, as it leads to more discussion. 

So Nick may not have a hard time convincing the jury he was the mastermind. 

[ljenkins782]

2 hours ago, kikaha said:

If Nick really is pulling the strings, some of the others know it.  Christian e.g. states as much in that secret scene, calling him a genius to Gabby (who now knows as well).  Carl and Davie must also be aware: they coordinated their moves and votes this last TC.  Assuming Nick makes it to F3, several jurors at least will know, and probably talk with the others.  The new FTC format could help Nick even more, as it leads to more discussion. 

So Nick may not have a hard time convincing the jury he was the mastermind. 

Also, he's a lawyer (with a voice I could listen to all day). Speaking skills alone can win an FTC, much like a lack of speaking skills can tank an otherwise strong game (see: Amanda in both China and Fans vs Favorites). 

The way this jury has been going, I see an open-minded group making the final vote, there are no bitter betties so far. They did well to get rid of the more spiteful folks before the jury started and there's almost no one left in the game that I envision being bitter and closed off when it comes down to the final vote.

Quote

 

I wasn't real sure about Carl's move to triumphantly bust out the nullifier document as Dan was packing his bags, it seemed like rubbing salt in a wound. Overt celebration might draw some heat eventually.

I actually think the Davids might be entering into dangerous territory here. The five are working together and working together well. They have bonded over the Goliaths unwillingness to work with the Davids and what the Davids see as disrespect. The bond they are forming could bite them all in the butt. There is some room for some seriously bitter Davids if the final five is not all Davids. They have been forced to work together, and managed to work past differences (there is no indication that the Davids really see each other as bff). They have done well with the help of Alec and Angelina trying to manage the jury by telling the Davids about the upcoming votes. And then Kara's not so subtle hint that Dan had another idol. 

What happens if Christian doesn't play the idol to help Davie, Carl or Nick after the three of them worked to keep Christian safe? Do you think Carl will see that as legit good game play or feel burned? This is the Carl who was so upset over Jessica's ouster he was willing to vote out Elizabeth. Do we really think Gabby will be ok if she is voted out with votes from any of the Davids before the rest of the Goliaths?

The real problem for Nick is that his flexibility could lead him into trouble if he chooses to work with the Goliaths to remove David threats, like Christian and Davey. That could easily lead to people seeing Nick as a more serious back stabber and engender bad feelings.

 

Hmm, that is interesting. I do see the potential for things to break down if the Goliath threat continues to recede through the removal of the big threats. I could see Angelina being the last Goliath standing at this point, lol. And since you mention it, I could see Gabby being bitter if she's not one of the Goliaths at the end, even though she hasn't really done as much as others to earn it. 

[Whimsy]

As a reminder, any posts that mention the previews for next week will be removed.  If you're unfamiliar with the Preview Rule, you can read it here. 

[Nashville]

6 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

Which is not a good thing lol. He's gonna have to make sure he can get the jury to believe he really was masterminding things and that's usually pretty hard. Easier for a man than a women though, so he has a chance.

Ordinarily I’d agree; in the specific case of this season, however, I’d say it depends on the Jury composition come FTC.  At the merge the tribe was composed of 7 Goliaths and 6 Davids - 13 contestants total - and all but 3 of these will end up on the Jury.  

Example*: If Nick is in F3 against two other Goliaths, then this necessarily dictates the Jury is split evenly between Davids and Goliaths (5/5). 50% of that Jury (the David half) is already aware of Nick’s behind-the-scenes strategic game moves, so no convincing would be needed on their part.  Meaning Nick would only have to flip one Goliath juror to win the game.

 

* Purely a hypothetical example, mods; not posting any spoilers, because I don’t know any.  :)

[Mark2]

15 hours ago, 30 Helens said:

Unless he’s taking credit for other people’s work, the article @Jextella linked to certainly confirms Nick’s role as the main strategist. Even the annoying alliance nicknames had a purpose! I want Nick as my lawyer.

And great point about Christian drawing all the heat. The other players think Nick is riding coattails. Little do they know he  (and Davey) designed the coat and just gave it to Christian to wear. 

I would not.

7 hours ago, Lamb18 said:

I was thinking the same thing while reading these posts this morning. What a strategic mind!

You're more likely to get convicted if you have a public defender.

[ProfCrash]

1 hour ago, Nashville said:

xample*: If Nick is in F3 against two other Goliaths, then this necessarily dictates the Jury is split evenly between Davids and Goliaths (5/5). 50% of that Jury (the David half) is already aware of Nick’s behind-the-scenes strategic game moves, so no convincing would be needed on their part.  Meaning Nick would only have to flip one Goliath juror to win the game.

If Nick faces that split he is going to have to explain why he is sitting with two Goliaths and not two Davids. There is the very really possibility that he will be dealing with people he stabbed in the back and they might not be too happy.

[kikaha]

2 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

If Nick faces that split he is going to have to explain why he is sitting with two Goliaths and not two Davids. There is the very really possibility that he will be dealing with people he stabbed in the back and they might not be too happy.

Seems to me a pretty easy answer to that, which is probably true and plays nicely to the egos of the Davids: Nick thought that if he sits next to Christian and/or Davie at the end, he couldn't win.  He had to go up against some Goliaths to stand a chance. 

Actually, the same is true for any Davids who make it to the end.  They have much better chances of beating Goliaths than Davids.  They all have the incentive to vote each out near the end-game, and go to the finals with two Goliaths. 

[BarneySays]

The less this show is about strategy and social dynamics and the more it's bout gimmicks and randomness, the less compelling it becomes.  This episode is Exhibit A.  What's the point of watching when it's so banal?

[ProfCrash]

1 hour ago, kikaha said:

Seems to me a pretty easy answer to that, which is probably true and plays nicely to the egos of the Davids: Nick thought that if he sits next to Christian and/or Davie at the end, he couldn't win.  He had to go up against some Goliaths to stand a chance. 

Actually, the same is true for any Davids who make it to the end.  They have much better chances of beating Goliaths than Davids.  They all have the incentive to vote each out near the end-game, and go to the finals with two Goliaths. 

Yeah, I don’t see that working with Carl, Davey or Gabby. Carl holds a grudge, Gabby is insecure enough to see being back stabbed as a negative thing, and Davey seemed to follow Carl’s grudge against Elizabeth. I think that the five left have worked together in a more intimate manner then most alliances do. We don’t see the brow beating or an enforcer for the Davids. They are sharing clues, sharing advantages, sharing idols and planning as a unit. They got up, as a unit, to search for the idol. Stabbing them in the back is not going to go over well. 

But that is what my gut says.

[Nashville]

4 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

Yeah, I don’t see that working with Carl, Davey or Gabby. Carl holds a grudge, Gabby is insecure enough to see being back stabbed as a negative thing, and Davey seemed to follow Carl’s grudge against Elizabeth. I think that the five left have worked together in a more intimate manner then most alliances do. We don’t see the brow beating or an enforcer for the Davids. They are sharing clues, sharing advantages, sharing idols and planning as a unit. They got up, as a unit, to search for the idol. Stabbing them in the back is not going to go over well. 

But that is what my gut says.

I would agree with you regarding Carl, but not quite regarding Gabby and Davie; for lack of a better word, I get different readings on their respective ‘vibes’:

• Hoping this makes sense - but I see Gabby’s occasional emotional excesses as being based more in the vein of stressing over a potential blindside or backstab, than fear of the actual backstab/blindside itself.  IMHO Gabby has what I can only think to describe as a Sword of Damocles personality; she can cope with ANY ‘known’, but significant degrees of unknown or uncertainty freak her out rather badly.  Assuming Gabby doesn’t make it to F3 - once the threat of eviction is past, the deed is done, and she’s out of the game, I expect Gabby to accept her expulsion from the game with good humor and grace, objective appreciation of the move’s underlying strategy - and possibly even relief.
• Davie is a LOT simpler; he’s a TOTAL fanboy of the game, and he’s living his dream.  Davie will fight like hell with tooth and nail to stay in the game - but if/when Davie gets kicked, I fully expect his reaction to be some variation of “Ahhhh, YA GOT ME!!!  Yeah, ya really got me, dammit.  But it was a good run, huh?”  ;)

Edited November 27, 2018 by Nashville
Typo

[kikaha]

10 hours ago, BarneySays said:

The less this show is about strategy and social dynamics and the more it's bout gimmicks and randomness, the less compelling it becomes.  This episode is Exhibit A.  What's the point of watching when it's so banal?

I think strategy and social dynamics were front and center this last episode.  The Davids were down a player, but had two advantages the Goliaths didn't know about.  They used the advantages perfectly (has that ever happened before?), booted someone with an idol, and now are even, with the momentum in their favor.  Anything less than ideal strategy would have wasted the advantages, as we nearly always saw in the past.  

And how did they know to play their advantages correctly?  Because a) their social game was good enough to get inside info on Dan's idol, and b) they were united enough to act on that info. 

i.e. it took top-notch strategy and a cohesive social game to flip the game around.  Of course the game could flip again, if either of those two crumble even a little. 

I wonder if the nullifier, once played, gets hidden again? 

[green]

19 hours ago, ljenkins782 said:

Also, he's a lawyer (with a voice I could listen to all day). Speaking skills alone can win an FTC, much like a lack of speaking skills can tank an otherwise strong game

Nick's persona and way with words always seemed a cross between Jack Nicholson's lawyer in "Easy Rider" and the "Better Call Saul" guy.  His lawyering skills plus his aw shucks charm plus his gamesmanship makes him the front runner right now to me.

[MisterBluxom]

10 hours ago, Nashville said:

I would agree with you regarding Carl, but not quite regarding Gabby and Davie; for lack of a better word, I get different readings on their respective ‘vibes’:

• Hoping this makes sense - but I see Gabby’s occasional emotional excesses as being based more in the vein of stressing over a potential blindside or backstab, than fear of the actual backstab/blindside itself.  IMHO Gabby has what I can only think to describe as a Sword of Damocles personality; she can cope with ANY ‘known’, but significant degrees of unknown or uncertainty freak her out rather badly.  Assuming Gabby doesn’t make it to F3 - once the threat of eviction is past, the deed is done, and she’s out of the game, I expect Gabby to accept her expulsion from the game with good humor and grace, objective appreciation of the move’s underlying strategy - and possibly even relief.
• Davie is a LOT simpler; he’s a TOTAL fanboy of the game, and he’s living his dream.  Davie will fight like hell with tooth and nail to stay in the game - but if/when Davie gets kicked, I fully expect his reaction to be some variation of “Ahhhh, YA GOT ME!!!  Yeah, ya really got me, dammit.  But it was a good run, huh?”  ;)

 

During the TC when Nick told Jeff he had a "Steal a Vote" advantage, Jeff asked him whose vote he wanted to steal. At that time, we were shown Nick pondering, thinking, stroking his chin and seeming to take a minute to think about that. When that happened, I thought to myself that was ridiculous because he would have almost certainly decided whose vote he would steal long before TC. But doe anyone have an opinion about this?

Was Nick trying to accomplish something like making the other side really nervous and using this tactic to encourage Dan to play his idol? Or maybe he was just being an ass and trying to "rub it in" and gloat in front of the other side? Or (IMO more likely) was this probably just the editing? He could have done this chin stroking at almost any time. Did the editors cut it from some other place and put it in there to heighten the tension? I have no idea. But I'd like to know what you all think.

[blackwing]

7 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

 

During the TC when Nick told Jeff he had a "Steal a Vote" advantage, Jeff asked him whose vote he wanted to steal. At that time, we were shown Nick pondering, thinking, stroking his chin and seeming to take a minute to think about that. When that happened, I thought to myself that was ridiculous because he would have almost certainly decided whose vote he would steal long before TC. But doe anyone have an opinion about this?

Was Nick trying to accomplish something like making the other side really nervous and using this tactic to encourage Dan to play his idol? Or maybe he was just being an ass and trying to "rub it in" and gloat in front of the other side? Or (IMO more likely) was this probably just the editing? He could have done this chin stroking at almost any time. Did the editors cut it from some other place and put it in there to heighten the tension? I have no idea. But I'd like to know what you all think.

There was an article posted where Nick said he wanted to steal Allison's vote to make the Goliaths think that Allison was the target.  And then perhaps Dan might play his idol for Allison.  Nick already knew that Carl was going to use the nullifier on Dan.  According to Nick, if Dan hadn't played the idol for himself, then Jeff would not have revealed the nullifier.  Then people (I guess the jury, he doesn't really specify) would have given Nick all the credit for making a great move and taking Allison's vote and faking out Dan.  Dan goes home and it looks like Nick is the superstar.

I'm not so sure if his assertion that Jeff would not reveal the nullifier if it was not played properly is based on his speculation or some sort of confirmed statement from Jeff.  Frankly, I'm not even sure if Jeff knew what the definitive rules were or if he was just making things up as they went along.  Jeff claims that Dan could have used a second idol on himself after the nullifier was played.

I tend to think that regardless of whether Carl played it properly or not, the existence of the nullifier would have been revealed.  Because why introduce a new twist to the game if they aren't going to reveal the use of it?

[SVNBob]

35 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I tend to think that regardless of whether Carl played it properly or not, the existence of the nullifier would have been revealed.  Because why introduce a new twist to the game if they aren't going to reveal the use of it?

Nope.  The rule sheet that Carl got with the Nullifier specifically said that if he used the Nullifier on the wrong person, or if no idols were played when he used the Nullifier, it would be left in the urn and not revealed.

[blackwing]

1 hour ago, SVNBob said:

Nope.  The rule sheet that Carl got with the Nullifier specifically said that if he used the Nullifier on the wrong person, or if no idols were played when he used the Nullifier, it would be left in the urn and not revealed.

Thanks for the clarification.  So many rules and despite the article with the Jeff interview, I still feel like he might be making up some things as he goes along.  He makes it like Dan wasted his idol on Angelina and took away his opportunity to save himself.  While it is true that Dan didn't need to use it on Angelina since she wasn't the target anyways, and thus it was a waste, it would have been nice if Jeff had said something at tribal just to clarify the rules on this Nullifier.  It wouldn't have hurt Jeff to say "this is the Nullifier, it nullifies the play of an idol on the person whose name is written on the back.  [Dramatic reveal] Dan's idol is nullified.  However, at this point, if anyone has a hidden immunity idol and wants to play it for Dan, THAT idol would be valid."

It just seems like this explanatory sentence would have done a lot to explain to the players (and to viewers and any players from future seasons watching at home) exactly what was going on.  The fact that he didn't makes me think he just made something up because he was caught off guard by the interview question.

[AZChristian]

22 hours ago, Mark2 said:

You're more likely to get convicted if you have a public defender.

Not necessarily, according to this government survey.   Web pages owned by private attorneys say that you are more likely to be convicted or serve a longer term with a private attorney.  They have a vested interest in that claim.

[MisterBluxom]

11 hours ago, AZChristian said:

Not necessarily, according to this government survey.   Web pages owned by private attorneys say that you are more likely to be convicted or serve a longer term with a private attorney.  They have a vested interest in that claim.

How can you believe what Lawyers say? They all have some kind of vested interest. Some kind of angle. But I would def take a chance on having Nick represent me. He is IMO - without a doubt - the original "Silver Tongued Devil". Besides, I can't help myself. I really like this guy.  How can anyone dislike Nick?

Edited November 28, 2018 by MissBluxom

[Mark2]

5 hours ago, AZChristian said:

Not necessarily, according to this government survey.   Web pages owned by private attorneys say that you are more likely to be convicted or serve a longer term with a private attorney.  They have a vested interest in that claim.

Interesting...one could argue that government has a vested interest in convincing people that the public defenders that they typically pay less are as good as generally higher paid private counsel.

The next point doesn't speak to Nick at all, I think he genuinely gets satisfaction from his work.  But I do know of some Public Defenders who want higher paid jobs at a firm, but couldn't cut it.  They save face by saying the same thing Nick does, to the effect that it's satisfying.

 

5 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

How can you believe what Lawyers say? They all have some kind of vested interest. Some kind of angle. But I would def take a chance on having Nick represent me. He is IMO - without a doube - the original "Silver Tongued Devil". Besides, I can't help myself. I really like this guy.

I also know some very upstanding lawyers.  I like Nick on Survivor a lot, but don't know enough to say either way outside of the show.

[MisterBluxom]

4 hours ago, Mark2 said:

Interesting...one could argue that government has a vested interest in convincing people that the public defenders that they typically pay less are as good as generally higher paid private counsel.

The next point doesn't speak to Nick at all, I think he genuinely gets satisfaction from his work.  But I do know of some Public Defenders who want higher paid jobs at a firm, but couldn't cut it.  They save face by saying the same thing Nick does, to the effect that it's satisfying.

I also know some very upstanding lawyers.  I like Nick on Survivor a lot, but don't know enough to say either way outside of the show.

Oh dear. I apologize.  I was shooting off my mouth without thinking and what I said was very foolish.  By this stage of my life, I really should know better.  I said a whole bunch of dumb stuff and I feel quite embarrassed. The truth is that lawyers have helped me a great deal and have always earned more money for me than they have cost me.  I am putting the rest of this post in a spoiler box because I fear many people will not want to read the rest of this since it will surely sound like a rant.

 

It seems to me that many  of the lawyer jokes are made by people who are unhappy because they victimized someone (like a spouse who needed money to raise children they failed to support) and then, those people hired a lawyer who forced them to pay that money to the person who needed it to raise those children. So, the people making the jokes were sued and forced to pay the child-support that the spouse needed and deserved to receive. I think the lesson is, "Do not create children unless you're willing to pay the cost of raising those children. OK. I'm sorry.  I will now get off this soapbox.  I'm sorry but I just needed to make the point that lawyers help individuals far more than they hurt them. Or another way of looking at it is to say that lawyers usually help those people who need and deserve to be helped and hurt (financially) those people who deserve it which often involves forcing people to pay for their mistakes. OK. I better shut it now.

I know that I could have edited this post to erase my stupid errors.  But I needed to remind myself as much as anyone else that it may seem like fun to jump on the bandwagon and make jokes about lawyers.  But the truth can be painful.  There are some bad lawyers. But it has been my experience that lawyers have helped me navigate the tangle that is the justice system and thanks to lawyers, I got compensation that I needed and deserved several times and I would never have gotten that if it wasn't for those lawyers, I thank God that lawyers are part and parcel of our Justice System and I apologize for talking so much.

Edited November 28, 2018 by MissBluxom

[MisterBluxom]

On 11/25/2018 at 10:07 AM, cujo said:

Production wants the idols/advantages to be found. That's why they're in the game. That's why this year the majority come wrapped or tied with coloured string to make them even more obvious and stand out. The idols/advantages have ways to make the game more interested and gives the alliance down in numbers a chance to turn things around instead of just sitting back and getting voted out. It's to make for more interesting TV.

<snip>

 

Cujo, I was short on time earlier and I could not say all that I wanted to say.  I said, "Good post. Well done". But I wanted to say much more. It was an excellent post and you opened my eyes to several things that I had not previously understood.  Yes!  Production does want the idols to be found and I was mistaken in thinking it was so dangerous for Christian to tell his secrets in his confessionals.

After all, we have no way of knowing just how many confessionals TPTB had to review before they chose the ones to broadcast. So Christian may well have given them a huge number of confessionals before they decided to select the one where he explained his strategy for finding idols.  All in all, he was never in such great danger as I imagined he was and I want to thank you for setting me straight on that point.

[marys1000]

After the merge how many idols are usually in play?  Christian has one.  Will there be another one to find because of Dan? I actually didn't get to watch last week.  

Will there be more advantages?  Vote stealers, nullifers.....how often do these show up after the merge?  Anyone?  

[blackwing]

24 minutes ago, marys1000 said:

After the merge how many idols are usually in play?  Christian has one.  Will there be another one to find because of Dan? I actually didn't get to watch last week.  

Will there be more advantages?  Vote stealers, nullifers.....how often do these show up after the merge?  Anyone?  

The idol that was used by Davie on Christian should have gotten reburied.  Davie talked last week about how he knows it should have gotten reburied, they looked for it and Nick found the Steal a Vote advantage instead.  The idol that was used by Dan on Angelina should have gotten reburied.  We weren't shown any scenes of anyone looking for it.  The second idol used by Dan on himself should also have gotten reburied.  So by my count there should be at least three idols re-hidden and waiting to be found.

Doesn't Christian also have an idol?  I can't remember.  If he does, why didn't he play it on himself, why did Davie have to do it?  Two idols initially at the Goliath and David camps.  Found by Dan and Davie.  Split into three tribes, idol at the Green tribe, found by Dan at the immunity challenge.  Then when the tribes merged, there was the clue of the palm tree at the feast table.  Same clue as the one dug up by Davie and Nick which was the Steal a Vote advantage.  I'm not sure if there should be any more hidden idols beyond these three if we are going to traditional Survivor custom.

Not sure if the Nullifier will get reburied or not... that's a new twist this season.  I don't believe the Advantages like the Steal a Vote or Extra Vote get reburied.  So it's unclear if they are going to treat the Nullifier like an idol that would be reburied upon use or an Advantage that is used up and done.

Sometimes there is an Advantage when it gets down to like four or five people which gives someone extra practice time on the final challenge.  That has sometimes show up during a Survivor Auction, but they don't always seem to have an Auction every season.

[ProfCrash]

They would not rehide the first three idols because those were original tribe idols, not merge idols. The only idol I would think that would be rehidden is Christians since that was the one hidden at the merge camp.

[Rachel RSL]

40 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Doesn't Christian also have an idol?  I can't remember.  If he does, why didn't he play it on himself, why did Davie have to do it?

He has an idol now but he didn't have one at the time Davie used his.

[Mark2]

3 hours ago, marys1000 said:

After the merge how many idols are usually in play?  Christian has one.  Will there be another one to find because of Dan? I actually didn't get to watch last week.  

Will there be more advantages?  Vote stealers, nullifers.....how often do these show up after the merge?  Anyone?  

More folks may weigh in over at the Speculation With/Without Spoilers threads.

I suspect the number of advantages in play will be tied to how the perceived fan favorites do this season, as in being in the majority vs minority.  But don't expect a brand new twist like the nullifier to be introduced.

2 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

They would not rehide the first three idols because those were original tribe idols, not merge idols. The only idol I would think that would be rehidden is Christians since that was the one hidden at the merge camp.

I don't know precedent on idol quantities and recycling, but do expect that to change anyway.  Nobody expected an "Idol Nullifier" to be in play, and that will probably influence the number of idols...

[Nashville]

2 hours ago, Mark2 said:

More folks may weigh in over at the Speculation With/Without Spoilers threads.

I suspect the number of advantages in play will be tied to how the perceived fan favorites do this season, as in being in the majority vs minority.  But don't expect a brand new twist like the nullifier to be introduced.

I don't know precedent on idol quantities and recycling, but do expect that to change anyway.  Nobody expected an "Idol Nullifier" to be in play, and that will probably influence the number of idols...

They aren’t engraved in stone or anything, but the general guidelines the show has followed for idols over past years shakes out something like this (and if I get anything wrong, please feel free to correct):

I - Pre-Merge

1. A single Hidden Immunity Idol (HII) is placed in the general vicinity of each original tribe’s camp.  This general vicinity (the “tribal grounds”) encompasses the woods and water well relatively close to the camp, but (pre-merge) usually not the camp proper.
2. If a pre-merge “mix” occurs which creates a new tribe (ex. splitting two tribes into three), then a HII will be placed at the new tribe’s grounds.
3. Once found, a HII is the personal property of the finder.  Other players may uncover/discover the existence of the HII during the course of the game - but they cannot steal it, alter/destroy it, or hide it from its original finder.
4. HIIs are usually transferable; this may be changed on a case-by-case basis, however, at Production’s discretion.
5. Tribal HIIs are portable between tribes; if a pre-merge mix results in a HII owner being shifted to a different tribe, then their HII goes with them and is not replaced at its original tribal grounds.

6. If an HII is played during a TC visit by its original tribe, then a new HII will be placed on that tribe’s grounds very shortly (maybe even immediately) afterward.  Transported HIIs are not replaced.

II - Post-Merge

1. After the tribal merge, Production only supports the existence of one HII in the game.  If multiple tribal HIIs remain in play following the merge, then they may still be played; they will not be replaced, however, until the last tribal HII has been played or otherwise exited the game.
2. Once the game is back down to one active HII, normal play/replacement rules apply.  Special note, though: post-merge, Production’s hiding of a HII within the camp proper is not uncommon.
3. Final cutoff for HII play is usually at/around the F5 TC.

 

Purely general, and off the top of my head - doesn’t cover super idols or other such special cases.

Edited November 28, 2018 by Nashville
Cleanup

[Eolivet]

22 minutes ago, Nashville said:

 If multiple tribal HIIs remain in play following the merge, then they may still be played; they will not be replaced, however, until the last tribal HII has been played or otherwise exited the game.

We know all about merge idols being re-hidden from Ben's idol bounty on HHH. Last year, I practically forgot about idols because Dom and Wendell ate them all. Game Changers had the immunity train at F6, so no idols were played early-mid merge, if I recall correctly. Millennials vs Gen X made it seem like there was no merge idol hidden until after the last tribal idol was played at F7, but I could never tell if that was because there genuinely was no idol or if there always was a merge idol, and people stopped looking because they were focused on the tribal idols still in play.

To me, it makes more sense that there's always a merge idol hidden from the beginning of the merge, regardless -- and the show just chooses not to show anyone looking for it. Otherwise, why would Christian be able to find a merge idol at F10 with one tribal idol still in the game? I suppose they could've switched up the rules this year, but it's so random.

I'd almost say that they showed Christian finding his idol out of order (that it happened this coming episode, post-Dan's last idol play), except that it was part of the "Davids share all their advantages" talk.

[Nashville]

8 hours ago, Eolivet said:

We know all about merge idols being re-hidden from Ben's idol bounty on HHH. Last year, I practically forgot about idols because Dom and Wendell ate them all. Game Changers had the immunity train at F6, so no idols were played early-mid merge, if I recall correctly. Millennials vs Gen X made it seem like there was no merge idol hidden until after the last tribal idol was played at F7, but I could never tell if that was because there genuinely was no idol or if there always was a merge idol, and people stopped looking because they were focused on the tribal idols still in play.

To me, it makes more sense that there's always a merge idol hidden from the beginning of the merge, regardless -- and the show just chooses not to show anyone looking for it. Otherwise, why would Christian be able to find a merge idol at F10 with one tribal idol still in the game? I suppose they could've switched up the rules this year, but it's so random.

I'd almost say that they showed Christian finding his idol out of order (that it happened this coming episode, post-Dan's last idol play), except that it was part of the "Davids share all their advantages" talk.

Yes, there’s always a “merge idol”; that’s the “one HII” I referred to in the start of the post-merge section. “Tribal HIIs” referred to the idols hidden at each separate pre-merge camp.

Edited November 29, 2018 by Nashville
Grammar

[BarneySays]

On 11/27/2018 at 6:32 AM, kikaha said:

I think strategy and social dynamics were front and center this last episode.  The Davids were down a player, but had two advantages the Goliaths didn't know about.  They used the advantages perfectly (has that ever happened before?), booted someone with an idol, and now are even, with the momentum in their favor.  Anything less than ideal strategy would have wasted the advantages, as we nearly always saw in the past.  

And how did they know to play their advantages correctly?  Because a) their social game was good enough to get inside info on Dan's idol, and b) they were united enough to act on that info. 

i.e. it took top-notch strategy and a cohesive social game to flip the game around.  Of course the game could flip again, if either of those two crumble even a little. 

I wonder if the nullifier, once played, gets hidden again? 

Sorry, but this did not involve any strategy.  The two "advantages" on their face gave them the power to determine unequivocally who would go home.  The vote steal gave the david 5 control of the votes (6-5).  The nullifier ensured that whoever was their target would go home because s/he would have no possible idol defense.  There was no way to play these advantages in the "wrong" manner, so it did not require any brain cells to use them properly.  

The learned about dan's idol because the funny looking blonde told them because she was looking for new allies.  That didn't require anything from the davids.  The only thing in their facvor was that they united, but given they were five and had no other choice, uniting was the only option.  

 

All it took to flip the game around were two new "advantages."