Elizabeth Webber: Forever The Manipulative Miss Or Adorable Angel?

[ulkis]

Decide amongst yourselves. Or fight in a jello pit over it amongst yourselves until someone cries mercy. (Cause you know we're gonna need this topic sooner or later) 

[MSquared]

But there's no Jason to fight over!

 

Okay, here it goes.  I was actually fairly die-hard for Liason through that whole mess.  And I was strung along on other boards with "Liason is the story!"  I fell hard for the five second engagement.  Then, it all went to hell and the next time I saw a lot of PC was when I was strung along again with "The Mannings are coming to PC!"  

 

That was the only real time I liked Liz.  I could not, could not, absolutely COULD NOT stand Lizzie when she first hit PC.  I hated the whole "Liz chasing Luke, chasing Sarah, chasing Nik" dynamic they had going then.  Now, I felt terrible for her with the rape storyline, but, as rape storylines tend to go on soaps (see Sayebrooke, Marty), they deified her and she was untouchable for a long time.  

 

Now, with regard to Liz, i am like LiRic a whole lot more than I should, can't stand the thought of Niz that may be upon us and am generally back to annoyed by her.

[Kim0820]

I liked Liz as a teen.  She got annoying later.  My theory is Lucky is the only man she really loves.  The rest seem to get lead along and dumped and judged overmuch and she wants the one she can't have.  I hate it when she is getting with a guy I like, since I know he is going to suffer.  This started with Zander and most recently, AJ.  Nik she wants only when she should not or can't have him.  And if they did get together, he will eventually do something for her to judge him.  

 

She's OK as the friend of others, Patrick, Robin, etc.

[Stinger97]

What is an "Enduro"?

[MSquared]

What is an "Enduro"?

 

It was the name of the faulty condoms that ended up in Jake and Lulu and Dillons's aborted fetus.  They were made by an ELQ controlled company.

[LeftPhalange]

I don't think Liz is a slut. She wants what she can't have and is extremely fickle to the point where I think she needs a psych evaluation. She seems to be incapable of existing for any significant period of time without having some man chasing after her. She wants all her past lovers to be interested in her and only her and if they dare move on she gets jealous. She likes the chase of getting a man to fall for her and then she gets bored and moves on to her next victim.

[ulkis]

It was the name of the faulty condoms that ended up in Jake and Lulu and Dillons's aborted fetus.  They were made by an ELQ controlled company.

 

And before that, in 1997, Liz stole a box of them and hid them in Sarah's clothes, causing tension between her sister Sarah and Nikolas by making them wonder if the other thought they were going too slow in their sexual relations. That naughty Liz!

[Lillybee]

Niz ruined Liz for me. Lucky gave her many chances to get out of the engagement. Nic tried to leave twice by going to Europe. Once Liz stopped him and the second time she had Lucky go to Nik's pp to plead for him to say. I don't have Carly level hatred for her but she is not one of my favorites.

[MSquared]

And before that, in 1997, Liz stole a box of them and hid them in Sarah's clothes, causing tension between her sister Sarah and Nikolas by making them wonder if the other thought they were going too slow in their sexual relations. That naughty Liz!

 

Woah, I completely forgot that!  But they were the brand that Jason and Dillon used, right?  Keeping it in the family.

[SlovakPrincess]

And before that, in 1997, Liz stole a box of them and hid them in Sarah's clothes, causing tension between her sister Sarah and Nikolas by making them wonder if the other thought they were going too slow in their sexual relations. That naughty Liz!

 

 

Oh my God, I'd forgotten that!  That was so dumb.  Did she want Nik for herself?  I don't even remember what her problem was a that point. 

 

I only remember she was annoying as hell for a long time, and pointless, until the actress got to shine in the rape story.  Since then, though, Liz hasn't really had a personality - she's a cypher that bad things seem to happen to, unless the plot requires Liz to do something annoying. 

[ulkis]

Oh my God, I'd forgotten that!  That was so dumb.  Did she want Nik for herself?  I don't even remember what her problem was a that point. 

 

I only remember she was annoying as hell for a long time, and pointless, until the actress got to shine in the rape story.  Since then, though, Liz hasn't really had a personality - she's a cypher that bad things seem to happen to, unless the plot requires Liz to do something annoying. 

 

No, she didn't even want Nik. She wanted Lucky, who wanted Sarah. But she hated Sarah so she decided to ruin her relationship with Nik, even though that would free up Sarah for Lucky. That shit was what made people so optimistic when the Gooz came back.

 

I only remember she was annoying as hell for a long time, and pointless, until the actress got to shine in the rape story.  Since then, though, Liz hasn't really had a personality - she's a cypher that bad things seem to happen to, unless the plot requires Liz to do something annoying.

 

 

I think they made her Robin lite after JJ left, which really kinda clinched the cypher aspect of her character. I still like her, but like most of the actors here for a while, she's complacent. 

[rur]

 

She seems to be incapable of existing for any significant period of time without having some man chasing after her. She wants all her past lovers to be interested in her and only her and if they dare move on she gets jealous. She likes the chase of getting a man to fall for her and then she gets bored and moves on to her next victim.

 

 

You know, this is pretty much the character description of Scarlett O'Hara. So now, I'm wondering if Liz was/is intentionally being written in the young Scarlett mold, or if it's just coincidence. Maybe when somebody on the writing staff finishes reading the book Liz can show some growth.

[reeneebob]

Well, HELLLLLLLLO topic. 

 

My Liz hate is epic, unwavering and legendary.  However, believe it or not I LIKED teenage Liz, when she was a hellion.  The beginning of the end was the rape/saintification of St Liz of Perpetual Fertility.

 

Since then, her constant smug bitchface, her baby talking in front of the man of the moment and then the minute he's not looking behaving like a shrew, her "poor innocent me" shtick (she had a kid road killed while she sounded out the words on her latest paternity test, Port Charles, PITY HER) climbing up 30 million flights of stairs in a power failure all innocently to fall on Jason's penis, her habit of pissing all over her conquests for the rest of their lives if they ever have the nerve to move on and show interest in a more interesting or better woman, the fact that her head is too big for her body, the fact she looks like a garden gnome, and the fact that she's practically a baby pez dispenser...all add up to me loathing the bint.

 

It doesn't help that I find Rebecca Herbst to be underwhelming as a performer, and that I really think she makes really stupid scene choices that make Liz look even worse.  I was actually thrilled when they got rid of Liz.  Then they caved and saved her job.  I have considered not watching because of Liz, even more than Sonny or anyone else.  And I'm sick for the actors that have been thrown under a bus for Liason.  All that stuff that they had Sam do?  The threatening of children etc?  Was completely out of character in an attempt to prop Liason further.  It was all bullshit, and all for Wittle Wiz of Perpetual Suffering.

 

Phew, that felt good to get off my chest.

[LeftPhalange]

 

she had a kid road killed while she sounded out the words on her latest paternity test, Port Charles, PITY HER

 

I know this is an awful thing to say, but I wanted Lucky to blame Liz for Jake's death. Just for a few weeks. I wanted him to rage at her and throw it in her face that if she hadn't been caught up in her latest paternity crisis maybe Jake would still be alive. It wasn't the same coming from AJ. I guess I should be glad they didn't have Lucky do that though. It probably would have permanently tarnished his character. Sam getting thrown under the bus because of that damn kid was enough.

[WendyCR72]

I'm torn about Jake. While I welcome anything that wipes the perpetual smirk off of Liz's face, the kid was, by blood, a Q, and he could have helped to revitalize the scraps that are left.

 

Then again, the kid only existed to cement Jiz as the purest wuv that ever wuvved and threw two pairings (Rexis/JaSam) under the proverbial bus to create this destined sainted pairing and their holy byproduct while leaving their smug asses lily white.

 

So, in the end, I was good with Jake biting it as he probably never should have existed to begin with!

[reeneebob]

YOU ARE MY PEOPLE!

 

Heh.

[tvgoddess]

Count me in as being glad that Jake bit it. My nickname for him now is worm food. And yes, it was entirely because Sam was thrown under the bus to prop Jiz, which I still get bitter about.

[ulkis]

I'm torn about Jake. While I welcome anything that wipes the perpetual smirk off of Liz's face, the kid was, by blood, a Q, and he could have helped to revitalize the scraps that are left.

 

Then again, the kid only existed to cement Jiz as the purest wuv that ever wuvved and threw two pairings (Rexis/JaSam) under the proverbial bus to create this destined sainted pairing and their holy byproduct while leaving their smug asses lily white.

 

So, in the end, I was good with Jake biting it as he probably never should have existed to begin with!

 

I didn't like Jake being killed off because it was simply to make Jason not look like the giant asshole that he was. Guza/Frons/Wolf whoever wanted Sam to have Jason's kid finally, but if Jason started acknowledging that child, he's look an ass for never taking much of interest in Jake, or conversely, he'd look like an ass for endangering the new baby when he was willing to let Jake go. Plus I never thought Liason was going to be anything other than an aberration, even if Kelly M. left the show. Neither Guza or Frons liked Liz enough for her to paired with Jason long-term. 

[LeftPhalange]

In addition to Sam being run over by a bus, I didn't like that Lucky was made to look like a fool because Liz assumed he was too weak to handle finding out she got knocked up by Jason.

 

 

Besides the grief/revenge sex and the two week engagement, did Jason and Liz ever have a real romantic relationship? Did they ever even go on a date? I always got the impression that Liz gave that relationship more value than it was actually worth. Like she was in love (or thought she was) and Jason was just in like.

Edited June 16, 2014 by LeftPhalange

[MSquared]

 

Besides the grief/revenge sex and the two week engagement, did Jason and Liz ever have a real romantic relationship? Did they ever even go on a date? I always got the impression that Liz gave that relationship more value than it was actually worth. Like she was in love (or thought she was) and Jason was just in like.

 

They had had a friendship off and on since Lucky's "death".  In fact, it was Carly seeing him comforting her that sent the Slagbeast onto Sonny's peen, another time he slept with a woman he loathe (but I digress).  I do remember a number of false starts over the years (she was even nice to TB's Carly and Carly seemed at least okay with the idea of whatever they had together.)  I believe it was her not being let in on the plan to fake Sonny's death that broke their budding romance up that time.  And she was set up as the center of a triangle with Jason and Zander during those year.  If it was a mutual attraction, it's been too many years, but I do have to say, I do resent the idea that it was wham! bang! they were in love with no history to back it up.

 

But then again, the only time I have really been able to tolerate her was with Jason during the "walk up X flight of stairs" era.

[BetteBoo]

She is smug, bitchy, sanctimonious at times, spoiled, loyal and dependable. I love Liz..faults, flaws and all. She's wishy washy with her men but what else can she do, they won't leave her alone! Liz may passive aggressively chase but the men chase right back.

Of course the women who came after her have a problem with her: Carly, Sam, Shiobahn, Courtney, Brit...they have all had to step to Liz eventually about their man. Jason never got Liz out of his blood. Neither has Nik. Or Rick. Or Lucky. Lz keeps a hold on her men like no other.

And I never really got the whole "Sam getting thrown under the bus for Liason". When Jason left her Sam disintegrated. Period. That's on her.

Edited June 19, 2014 by BetteBoo

[MrsRafaelBarba]

I liked Teen Liz, plus the rape storyline was one of the best written of Riche/Labine era.

 

Solid acting from all involved, plus the "pink elephant" was finally addressed. 

 

Luke owned up to raping Laura.

 

After the ONE TRUE LUCKY "died" and the baby daddy parade began, she lost me.

 

JMO

[ulkis]

Liz's rape was written by Guza, although apparently Michele Val Jean was responsible for a great deal of it

[ulkis]

I guess you are right. Didn't he give a check and pretty much washing his hands off them? 

Liz blowing her relationship with Jason out of proportion has always been a running theme with the character. She makes herself more relevant in his life that she actually was. It shouldn't be a surprise that she'll have a photo of them together in a prominent place in her home.

I know, it is a plot point.

 

 

 

Depends on which Liz fan you ask. We're not all (well I include myself because I like Liz in general but I'd hardly call myself a "fan first") one big group that agrees on what is or what is not a plot point for Liz, like any other fan group. For my own part, I definitely think Liz over-exaggerates her place in Jason's life, but I think that about all of the women in Jason's life. Maybe Robin was the one who knew what place she held in Jason's life and Jason had the same view of it. 

[KerleyQ]

There was a very brief time where Liz and Jason actually tried to make a go of the "family" thing. Then MyKill got shot in the head when Liz and Jason were about to head out of town, and they realized it was never safe in Jason's world and ended things for her and Jake's safety.

[UYI]

This is a great video that chronicles Liz's life (made by the amazing jonobeckyll2, who IMO makes the best GH fan videos on YouTube):

 

[sometimesfan]

I always liked Liz except for Niz which I try to forget on a daily basis.

[ouinason]

There hasn't been a day where I didn't like Liz, thought I've hated a lot of the shit she's done. I even like her pairing that I couldn't like at least some. I understood Niz, even if I hated a lot of it, which is more than most people lol.

[KerleyQ]

(Coming over here, since this isn't episode talk...)  

 

As always, i remain amused that a woman who has had sex, at most, a handful of times in the past 5 years (and has had, I think, 6 different partners in well over 15 years), gets the slut-shaming and judgement. 

Edited December 4, 2014 by KerleyQ

[peachmangosteen]

I think it's more the fact that she has no other story than to be tied up with some man, she's normally got at least 2 guys she's circling around, she's coming off thirsty as hell right now with Jake, she seems to always want what she doesn't have right now and then decide she doesn't want it when she gets it, etc. For some people it's just annoying.

 

I go back and forth on Liz. I was a card carrying member of the I Hate Liz Club, but then I really liked the initial romance with AJ. But then I hated her again.

 

For me personally it's mostly a shallow thing where I sometimes just find BH's acting annoying as hell and her frame/wardrobe choices aggravate me.

Edited December 4, 2014 by peachmangosteen

[KerleyQ]

From the time Lucky left until AJ showed up, she barely looked at a man.  And then, since the writers have severe ADD, whenever they manage to get her into potentially good story/pairings, they manage to get distracted and either drop it completely before it goes anywhere (Liz/Matt, for example) or just fuck it up royally for no real reason (Liz/AJ).  

[Chairperson Meow]

I have been liking Liz's clothes lately, but don't like Liz/Nik or Liz/Jason.

Why can't Liz get a man that's not related to an ex nor someone else's man?

Liz wears her heart on her sleeve, so to speak. She's too emotionally available.

[HeatLifer]

I just want Liz to get a good man that loves her and only her for at least a few years.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

From the time Lucky left until AJ showed up, she barely looked at a man.  And then, since the writers have severe ADD, whenever they manage to get her into potentially good story/pairings, they manage to get distracted and either drop it completely before it goes anywhere (Liz/Matt, for example) or just fuck it up royally for no real reason (Liz/AJ).  

 

IMO, Liz's instances of infidelity, or whatever you want to call it, are largely emotional rather than physical. It took Lucky being in bed with Maxie, and Sam doing the dirty with Ric, to get her and Jason to have sex, but before that she was inserting herself into Jason's life in a way that was completely unnecessary. Up to and including shredding police files for him, endangering Lucky's job. I mean, sure, you could say that everyone has helped the mobular characters from time to time, and you wouldn't be wrong. But I don't why it isn't just as valid to say that Liz's emotional cheating went on for a long time before Jake was conceived. And then there was that time when Robin was having PPD and Liz was suddenly Patrick's best friend who wanted him to smile, or somesuch nonsense. And this was despite the fact that she was supposed to be Robin's friend, where she was never close with Sam.

 

And to echo peachmangosteen, Herbst's acting contributes to my annoyance. Sometimes I appreciate the bitch-face, like when she's throwing it at Carly, but the flip side of that is that she's very "sweet as pie" when she seems to be hovering on the edges of someone else's relationship - Briit/Nik, Sam/Jason, Robin/Patrick. I don't care who she does or doesn't have sex with. It's the "ain't I a stinker?' face she gets that bugs me.

[KerleyQ]

Honestly, during the "emotional infidelity" with Jason (which, honestly, I've had a few male friends in my life who I'd do just about anything for, without it being romantic, so I'm still not on board that Liz was somehow being unfaithful to Lucky during that time, although I'll acknowledge that destroying the files was shitty, but Jason was the show's "hero," so it's not surprising), I honestly thought Lucky was being an emotionally abusive dickhead (and not even solely during his addiction period, he was being an emotionally abusive jackass for a while before the pills).  Finding him in their marital bed banging his drug hook up was really the tip of the iceberg in that mess.  When it comes to that time period in their relationship, when it comes to the battle of "who did worse," I'll always be on Liz's side.  I was pissed she stuck with him as long as she did, to be honest.  

 

Of course, the writing was ridiculous back then, because Guza was deadset on getting to the Liz/Jason ONS and baby, and he wrote a whole lot of character-destroying bullshit to get there (on all four of Lucky, Sam, Liz, and Jason, but an epic amount went to Lucky).  I think it started right around the time Lucky lost his shit on Lulu for getting an abortion, if I'm remembering my time line correctly (btw, did you know Lulu had an abortion?  She never mentioned it).  I remember thinking "holy crap, why is Lucky being such an asshole to his scared, pregnant teenage sister??"  

 

I think the main problem was that, once the show realized they were keeping KeMo, Liz tied down in the street to wait for that bus.  Once Guza successfully bussed the hell out of her, he realized "hey, that worked, Becky sold it, her fans were vocal, we created a groundswell of new/renewed hate for the character, hardly anybody is indifferent to her now!"  And from then on, Liz became the pawn he moved around the board to do whatever propping he needed done, and he ceased caring about her as a character in her own right.  Hell, Lucky's "what happened to that girl in the snow?" might as well have been Guza saying "let's be real, that's the last time we had any interest in her other than a pawn and place holder."  

[peachmangosteen]

Sometimes I appreciate the bitch-face, like when she's throwing it at Carly, but the flip side of that is that she's very "sweet as pie" when she seems to be hovering on the edges of someone else's relationship - Briit/Nik, Sam/Jason, Robin/Patrick. I don't care who she does or doesn't have sex with. It's the "ain't I a stinker?' face she gets that bugs me.

 

THIS. This this this. 

 

I will say, I loved Liz's sweater today. I need to find out where it's from.

[ulkis]

 Hell, Lucky's "what happened to that girl in the snow?" might as well have been Guza saying "let's be real, that's the last time we had any interest in her other than a pawn and place holder."  

 

You know, I never thought about it that way, but you're absolutely right.

THIS. This this this. 

 

I will say, I loved Liz's sweater today. I need to find out where it's from.

 

I thought her hair was fantastic too.

[KerleyQ]

I think the only time her hair hasn't been fantastic was during the reign of "The Taupe" when pretty much every single actress was sporting a color the hair department apparently got a bulk discount on.  Even then, her hair was great, but the color sucked ass. 

[WendyCR72]

IMO, Liz's instances of infidelity, or whatever you want to call it, are largely emotional rather than physical. It took Lucky being in bed with Maxie, and Sam doing the dirty with Ric, to get her and Jason to have sex, but before that she was inserting herself into Jason's life in a way that was completely unnecessary. Up to and including shredding police files for him, endangering Lucky's job. I mean, sure, you could say that everyone has helped the mobular characters from time to time, and you wouldn't be wrong. But I don't why it isn't just as valid to say that Liz's emotional cheating went on for a long time before Jake was conceived. And then there was that time when Robin was having PPD and Liz was suddenly Patrick's best friend who wanted him to smile, or somesuch nonsense. And this was despite the fact that she was supposed to be Robin's friend, where she was never close with Sam.

 

< Bette Midler > "Did you ever know that you're my herooooooo?" <  /Bette Midler >

 

Seriously, this describes Liz's behavior to a T and is part of the reason I cannot STAND the two-faced heifer.

[sometimesfan]

I just find all of that to be shameless plot points, as KerleyQ pointed out, plot points that moved Liz from one spot on the board to another. I remember when Guza began the process of putting Jason and Liz back in each other's orbits, of rekindling their friendship. I thought it was nice, that it had made little sense for them to act like they didn't know each other, but Becky never was going to be "their" girl, Kelly was, and for that reason if for no other I will almost always give Liz the benefit of the doubt.

[jsbt]

You know, I never thought about it that way, but you're absolutely right.

 

Guza was never subtle about shit like that. He did it to a number of people, including many of his old favorites (NLG, TC, Ingo, etc). He burned all his best work down and spat on it.

Edited December 5, 2014 by jsbt

[Kitty Redstone]

Was just reading in another GH forum, and the term muffinface - one of epithets used for Liz - was brought up.  Can someone please explain to me what that means?  I was watching during the era it was coined but have never understood it.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Kitty Redstone, according to Urban Dictionary, 'muffin face' is used to describe "a female who is ditzy yet cute with round cheeks."

[Kitty Redstone]

Ah, thank you Cobalt Stargazer.

[katie9918]

I'm just really sick of Lizzie taking center stage for plot point purposes. I'm one of a minority, but I always thought that even GV's druggie Lucky was far too good for her (not that I wanted him with that worthless Maxie *shudder*) especially when she married him while wanting worthless murdering Jason and then committed to him wanting his own half-brother.

Yeah, Lucky's been a deadbeat since then, but who can blame him, looking at who he committed himself to? How many indignities was he supposed to suffer just because of Liz's past actions?

I'm really having a hard time trying to see how Liz is in any way Lucky's victim. Her kids maybe, but never her.

Edited December 28, 2014 by WendyCR72
Please refrain from the slut-shaming language. Edited to remove such.

[sometimesfan]

I'm just really sick of Lizzie taking center stage for plot point purposes. I'm one of a minority, but I always thought that even GV's druggie Lucky was far too good for her (not that I wanted him with that worthless Maxie *shudder*) especially when she married him while wanting worthless murdering Jason and then committed to him wanting his own half-brother.

Yeah, Lucky's been a deadbeat since then, but who can blame him, looking at who he committed himself to? How many indignities was he supposed to suffer just because of Liz's past actions?

 

I'm really having a hard time trying to see how Liz is in any way Lucky's victim. Her kids maybe, but never her.

 

 

Has anybody really said Liz was Lucky's victim though?

[WendyCR72]

Has anybody really said Liz was Lucky's victim though?

 

Unfortunately, I have seen some posts alluding to it, and using JY!Lucky's "thing" with Sarah from eons ago to excuse Liz emotionally (and then physically) cheating on her injured husband, whom she forgave long after Sarah, to marry him.

 

Only to whitewash herself of all blame with the whole Maxie/Jason/L&L2 clusterfuck when - as a nurse - she should have noticed her husband had a drug problem but was instead lusting after Jason and shredding police files for him and letting Sam get the blame. And I have seen the whole Lucky/Maxie deal used to absolve Liz, too.

 

All characters get defended, but I am just enumerating examples to answer the question asked here.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Has anybody really said Liz was Lucky's victim though?

 

Calling Liz Lucky's victim is probably stretching it, but conversely calling him a deadbeat is also stretching it, IMO. It isn't as if he's gallivanting all over Europe or sunning himself on the Riviera. Since everything worthwhile happens off-screen on this show, he very well may be in contact with the kids all the time, if not Liz. He didn't leave them with a song in his heart, I know that much.

[KerleyQ]

The way Lucky left things kind of smacks of  "deadbeat" but who knows what the hell the rocks have been telling him to do all this time.  

 

Also, he didn't leave right after the Nik/Liz reveal.  He was around for a while after, even married to that plot-point Harlequin Romance ripoff, Siobhan, for a while.  His leaving was kind of a cumulative thing - Niz, Siobhan, his spending what seemed like days on end staring at old Vicodin pills under his couch, and, most importantly, Jake's death.  I think it's not remotely fair to Liz to pretend that he left town because she screwed Nik.  I'd place the lion's share of the blame on Luke for his departure, to be honest.  But, yeah, I know, Liz is the worst, etc, etc, etc.  

[katie9918]

I'm just sick of Lucky's absence being blamed solely on Lucky and seeing the ridiculous accusations that AJ "abused" Liz when he had a bad moment and said something he shouldn't ever have said and then suffered and died, and she barely shrugged before moving on to Ric (although not before insinuating herself into Nik's attempt to get over her perfect ass). And then moved back in on Nik for five seconds before zeroing in on Jake and basically behaving to him the same way original recipe Sabrina behaved towards Patrick (stalkerish).

This lady has not been been good news, or a heroine, in years (if ever)!