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S01.E06: Part 6

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A deep dive into the minds of these individuals, we finally see what Matt and Sweat are capable of outside the prison walls. Tilly's natural instincts aren't much better.

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From a storyline point the ep really halted the forward movement of the story. I’m not sure Stiller had to wait to this point in the story to give us backstory to make us hate these people even more. Which it did, just maybe he could have interspersed these backstories sooner than this episode.

Arquette has completely disappeared in this role. That final shot that stayed on her face was Oscar worthy. So now we know that not only are Matt and Sweet despicable humans (which we already knew) we now have proof that Tilly is a psychopath that fit right in with these heartless murderers. If anyone felt she was in any way a victim of those two - how wrong you were. In many ways I find her worse. And now I have to add Lyle to the list of characters I hate. Turns out the only guy i felt bad for up to now is a piece of shit too, he was a cheating jerk who has been letting Tilly lead him around by the dick apparently since they met. He deserved Tillys betrayals and I will file it under the “if they’ll do it with you, they’ll do it to you” category. 

I feel like I need a shower after watching these dirtbags, all of their crimes made my skin crawl. I cant wait for the finale, when i hope, we finally see them all get their comeuppance.

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4 hours ago, meira.hand said:

I actually felt this was a really smart way to tell this story. If you do not know anything about the real story behind these characters, than its possible to watch the previous episodes with a real interest about the prison escape and almost see their point of view and need to get out.  You know they are in jail for a good reason but its more theoretical than visceral as we don't really see them as particularly violent during this period. Especially Sweat is portrayed very low key and we are so used to killing in TV series that we become a little numb to it. The way they spent 14 minutes showing us how nice and decent the traffic cop was until we felt like we knew and liked him and then watch his stomach churning brutal and cruel murder, brought home who Sweat really was in a way that prepares us to really want him to be punished in almost a personal way. As Matt was already quite repulsive in the first episodes, what he did and how, did not need as much time. I feel that if I had seen these scenes in the first part of the series I would have simply stopped watching.

I think your reply is brilliant. There were many who watched who were rooting for these guys to not be caught and this show rolled with that and allowed that feeling to build and then socked the viewers between the eyes with the true reality of their crimes. I am sure that this part will result in a 360 in terms of how viewers will going forward perceive Matt and Sweat. 

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@meira.hand @DakotaLavender I agree with both replies. The timing is perfect given the closing scene of episode 5,  where we viewers shared the prisoners' feeling of "Free At Last!" when the escape was a success... then we get shaken back to reality with episode 6.  

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I don’t think most people were rooting for Matt and Sweat (I wasn’t), what I was trying to say is after weeks of the slow trod of digging out this episode just felt like we halted. I get why Stiller put this episode here, Dead Man Walking implored the same technique in that movie and it worked there. Don’t get me wrong, the storytelling in this episode was good, the build up, showing the true brutality of these two men, showing that Tilly was a selfish manipulative user way before she met these two, it was all done well. I was just ready to see what I know we will see next week. Call me inpatient. I guess I haven’t seen the message boards where anyone was rooting for these guys to get free, my commentary was not about that and I certainly wasn’t one of them. I have found all of them, including Tilly, repulsive humans from the word go, I’m just ready to see them get what’s coming. 

I really enjoy reading everyone’s thoughts, it always makes the show better for me to be able to share my thoughts, can’t wait for next week. 

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Unbelievable episode. When he ran over that poor cop, it showed me how dangerous both of those guys really are. Tilly, is only one step removed from these guys. She had not committed any crimes (that we know of), but obviously could, and has (helping with the escape). So looking forward to next week. 

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They need to make the real Joyce watch this episode. It's one thing to read about murderous behavior and it's an entirely different thing to see it played out.

And yes, it killed the momentum of the series. Wouldn't have done so if it hadn't taken us SIX freaking hours to get here.  A necessary evil.

It's still very good, but damn. Merry Christmas to me.

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I don't know if it's good or bad that I've watched so much TV for so many years that I knew that movie ending haunting Matt was from Deliverance.

I'm going with good. Yeah. Good.

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Not sure when would have been a good time to remind viewers why these guys were lifers, but now is as good a time as any. I already knew from reading up on the case, but yeah, they weren't some Andy Dufranes falsely accused and convicted. At least now there's no doubt why Matt's nickname was "Hacksaw".

On the other hand, I didn't know anything about Tilley's background or how she hooked up with Lyle, so it was interesting to confirm that she's always been a despicable person. 

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1 hour ago, Giant Misfit said:

That was one of the most deeply unpleasant, awful hours of television I ever watched. 

How horribly deranged all these people are. Jesus. Just Jesus.

I was clicking back and forth between this and Dirty John (yet another psychopath, Merry Christmas, everyone!) and a rerun of Victoria and I'm thinking maybe I will skip this episode entirely.  I've read details of what Matt and Sweat were in for and I don't think I need to actually see it. 

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After tonight's episode I think we can all agree that Tilley was ALWAYS a heinous person.  Sweat and Matt did not manipulate or victimize Tilley because Tilley was just as manipulative as the inmates.  Birds of a feather......

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14 hours ago, sadie said:

And now I have to add Lyle to the list of characters I hate. Turns out the only guy i felt bad for up to now is a piece of shit too, he was a cheating jerk who has been letting Tilly lead him around by the dick apparently since they met. He deserved Tillys betrayals and I will file it under the “if they’ll do it with you, they’ll do it to you” category. 

So Matt and Sweat weren't Tilly's first time at the rodeo doing some nasty screwing around. Push, push in the bush...literally in the bush.

Is Lyle really that stupid to think she wouldn't do it again? Or does he actually know that she cheated with Matt and Sweat and maybe he is too scared of Tilly or he is just so in love with her he will do anything to keep her?

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I was glad that they finally showed us who these people are and what they did. I live in the Adirondacks and to say that the escape terrorized a community is an understatement. Millions spent on the search and capture, weeks spent locked behind doors afraid to leave your own home jumping at every noise. The fact that no innocent lives were lost is only by luck, and it would have been blood on Tilly’s hands, a fact that I don’t think she understands to this day. So I’m glad there was an episode showing us what monsters these three are. 

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I'm trying to figure out how Bonnie Hunt gets star billing when she's only in one or at most now, two episodes.  She must have a great manager (or whoever negotiates contracts).  And the funny thing is, I would love to see more of her investigation into corruption and ineptitude at the prison, and it would have been a great way to frame the whole series.  

Edited by Quilt Fairy
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I don’t think this stopped the forward momentum at all.  It was necessary in large part because up until this part Matt and Sweat have been written in sort of a Shawshank Redemption arc.  This brings it to a screeching halt .

Sweat killed a cop.  And did it brutally.

Matt tortured a guy to get money but while doing that he got high and picked up some hookers and showed them the dude he had tied in his trunk.  When he finalled killed the guy with a hacksaw he threw all the peices in the same river.   Matt is both smart and lazy.

If half of Tilly’s  story is true it might actually be the most fucked up.  She cheated with and on Lyle.     

We saw who Matt and Sweat were in jail but they are out now..,,it may pay to know who they are on the outside.

Edited by Chaos Theory
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New York has the death penalty so why weren't these two executed? The deliberate viciousness of Matt and Sweat's crimes was stunning, especially given the relatively low stakes. I'm actually not a death penalty advocate but these guys make it hard to understand how society is served by having criminals like them lazing around in prison for decades at the taxpayers' expense. Especially since there wasn't any question of who committed the killings they were convicted of.

Wait, Tilly had that hot piece of a husband and she cheated on him with dim bulb Lyle?  And she and Lyle were rutting like dogs right outside Tilly's job in broad daylight? What the hell?

Tilly was nasty piece of work who seemed to enjoy having drama at work. Of course she got mixed up with Sweat and Matt.

Poor Kenny Jr. Abandoned by his father so Tilly could emotionally abuse him. I hope we'll see what happened to him when he grew up and was hopefully able to escape her clutches.

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Spoiler

I saw Tilley's son on the Dannemora documentary, and he's done some interviews, always stating he and Lyle fully support Tilley, and expressed disappointment that she's been denied parole. 

Re Tilley's son...

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1 hour ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

New York has the death penalty so why weren't these two executed?

New York may have the death penalty but it never actually uses it.   While laws regarding the imposition of capital punishment in the State of New York are still on the books, it is no longer enforced as it is been declared unconstitutional in the state and this ruling has not been overturned. The last execution took place in 1963, when Eddie Mays was electrocuted at Sing Sing Prison. 

 

From what I read Tilly was never very well liked in the community.    I think she  was always described as stand offish.  The fact that she cheated on her husband and was able to rustle full and total custody is mind blowing.    When she told her son that his own father didn't want to see him and to "Call Lyle daddy."  Has got to be the most fucked up line of the entire series.  

Edited by Chaos Theory
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2 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

If half of Tilly’s  story is true it might actually be the most fucked up.  She cheated with and on Lyle.     

 

Lyle was also married (with 2 kids) at the time of their workplace affair. So they were both cheaters. 

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16 minutes ago, CynicalGirl said:

Lyle was also married (with 2 kids) at the time of their workplace affair. So they were both cheaters. 

That guy got two women to marry him?  Wow.  Just..... wow.

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Excellent episode last night...seeing the reason these two ended up in prison put fresh perspective into who they really are...cold blooded psychopaths. And the back story to Tilly was even more enlightening. As manipulative as Sweat and Matt are, she is also. I think I would have to agree with her first husband's assessment of her. 

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That guy got two women to marry him?  Wow.  Just..... wow.

And Tilly got two men to marry her? It looked like she had a voluptuous body when she was with her first husband but surely her vile personality was evident too. She must've had some overriding skills.

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On 12/23/2018 at 12:07 PM, sadie said:

From a storyline point the ep really halted the forward movement of the story.

 

15 hours ago, WaltersHair said:

And yes, it killed the momentum of the series. Wouldn't have done so if it hadn't taken us SIX freaking hours to get here.  A necessary evil.

My real problem is that there is only one hour left.  I was looking forward to learning more about their life on the run, and Tilly's arrest.   It seems to me that Stiller fell in love with the concept of having one episode = one month.  That meant the prison scenes began to drag, at least in my opinion, and he'd used up five episodes just to get us to the escape.  Episode six is dedicated to the backstory, and presto!, we're at episode 7, and gosh, it's time to tie up the story and get everyone together for the wrap party. 

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18 minutes ago, Thalia said:

 

My real problem is that there is only one hour left.  I was looking forward to learning more about their life on the run, and Tilly's arrest.   It seems to me that Stiller fell in love with the concept of having one episode = one month.  That meant the prison scenes began to drag, at least in my opinion, and he'd used up five episodes just to get us to the escape.  Episode six is dedicated to the backstory, and presto!, we're at episode 7, and gosh, it's time to tie up the story and get everyone together for the wrap party. 

But how much story is there in the escape especially in  a limited series?   I might have expected two episodes but not more then that and I do think this episode is a necessity because I could see the audience rooting for Sweat and Matt.   This episode shows in no uncertain terms that both men deserve to be in prison.  

Edited by Chaos Theory
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4 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

New York has the death penalty so why weren't these two executed?

Sweat avoided the death penalty because he pleaded guilty and his deal was a life sentence without parole. 

8 hours ago, ElderPrice said:

So I’m glad there was an episode showing us what monsters these three are. 

The writer explained this episode was necessary so nobody "glorified" the escape and Matt and Sweat did not turn into "folk heroes." 

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The primary problem showrunners have is knowing when to STOP.  They tend to fall into the "Just one more season", or "Just 4 more episodes" when there is nothing else the audience needs or wants.  (Hello, Ray Donovan  Producers!)

The term "Jumping the Shark" is appropriate to so many shows these days, I'm glad Ben Stiller knows better than to put on his swim trunks and strap on those water skins.  
 

Edited by leighdear
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At first I found Tilly kind of funny and thought she just got in over her head, but now I have no pity for her since she seems to be a psychopath herself.

I admit I was relating to her a bit. When I was 20 I worked for a company that supplied food to a drug/alcohol rehab facility. When I would come in there the guys would be all over me. But face it, they were "locked up" for 30 days in rehab and were bored and horny and I was young and cute (*sigh*) back then. I met a guy there who was a minor league athlete, extremely good looking and charming and I snuck him in a jar of instant coffee (he wasn't allowed caffeine). I hadn't signed any paperwork about socializing or bringing in contraband but I knew I shouldn't. Funny thing is I ended up dating the guy after he got out of rehab, the first night he picked me up he had a case of beer with him (slaps forehead). But I digress as usual, and thankfully I went back to college and ended up in another line of work...

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Whoa......We hate you Tilly oh yes we doooooo.....what did her soon to be new husband say to her that she said, I will never forgive you for right at the end of the episode? I missed what it was. My God, she is a monster. 

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37 minutes ago, atlantaloves said:

Whoa......We hate you Tilly oh yes we doooooo.....what did her soon to be new husband say to her that she said, I will never forgive you for right at the end of the episode? I missed what it was. My God, she is a monster. 

I forget the exact quote, but it was something like, "You fought for me. I will never forget you" That is probably why she couldn't go through with giving him the pills. 

I have to say I was stunned with how good Tilly looked and the Matt character. They looked so much younger. The make-up people have done a great job. 

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10 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Wait, Tilly had that hot piece of a husband and she cheated on him with dim bulb Lyle?  And she and Lyle were rutting like dogs right outside Tilly's job in broad daylight? What the hell?

Tilly was nasty piece of work who seemed to enjoy having drama at work. Of course she got mixed up with Sweat and Matt.

Tilly thinks she's moving up in the world but she definitely is moving down.  From seemingly kind husband and father (unless she knew of his temper because it was a common occurrence) to Lispy Lyle of limited intelligence to two rightfully convicted murderers.  Even during the bashing the bush in the bush scene, she was having a boring, decidedly unsexy conversation.  I could see the excitement of rutting with Tilly if she at least acted like she was interested during the sex.  

I was glad we were shown Tilly, Sweat and Matt's backstories.   Up until now, with no outside knowledge of the case, Matt came off as extra sleazy to me, but mellowed by prison.  Sweat seemed more like a "wrong place, wrong time" guy during which time something horrific happened.  Tilly seemed liked a bored, gullible fool looking for some excitement in her life.  Now we see two terrifying murderers with the combined issues of being brutal sociopaths and not too bright.  People joke about running someone over, backing up and hitting them again; he did it.  In so doing, he piled up the evidence I would figure was used to convict him and ensured he was never getting out of prison. Matt tortured someone and was stupid enough to drag him around in a car and show him to people.  WTF?  Then came the hacksaw.  Tilly is a manipulator and liar who only thinks of herself, to the detriment of her son.  These three are a triad made in hell. 

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I think my vision is impaired. I seem to have viewed this episode in a format that fit my entire TV screen and then when I watch it On Demand it is in letterbox format. Is this entire series in letterbox? 

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I had two feelings concurrently while watching. 1) I had been really looking forward to seeing how the escape played out and was frustrated not to be seeing that; and 2), I totally got why it was necessary and brilliant for Stiller to structure the show this way. It's like Stiller was saying, "I know how much you want to see one thing, but you need to see the other." And while watching it I knew he was right, for all the reasons cited in the discussion above. Great direction is about authority over the audience, establishing a tone so commanding and deserving of respect and even awe that the audience willingly, happily submits to it. That happened.

I'm interested in one moment in Sweat's story. I didn't know what to make of it and I wonder what others did. It's the moment where he stands over the cop and says "I'm sorry." It seemed sincere! With the heinous things he did (and was about to do), you might think he'd mean it ironically or sadistically, but no. Was there some conflict in him, some good core that got overridden by being hopped up on whatever drugs he was on in the moment? Some part that genuinely regretted what he saw himself doing, such that we should rank him one half-step more virtuous than Matt? Or not? I think Stiller intends us to feel some ambiguity here; wondering where others come out.

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Spoiler

Swet pleaded guilty to avoid the death penalty and received a life sentence without parole, but he thinks 17 years was enough for a murder he committed when the officer he killed is never coming back from his grave and the officer's family wanted the death penalty. 

Sweat now has a girlfriend in prison. She moved from Long Island to Ovid NY to be near him. She has a 6 year old daughter and they are planning on getting married. She visits him often. Sweat now has somebody to "take care of him." 

I have no doubt he will die in prison, but somehow I feel we have not heard the last of his story. 

9 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

I'm interested in one moment in Sweat's story. I didn't know what to make of it and I wonder what others did. It's the moment where he stands over the cop and says "I'm sorry." It seemed sincere! With the heinous things he did (and was about to do), you might think he'd mean it ironically or sadistically, but no. Was there some conflict in him, some good core that got overridden by being hopped up on whatever drugs he was on in the moment? Some part that genuinely regretted what he saw himself doing, such that we should rank him one half-step more virtuous than Matt? Or not? I think Stiller intends us to feel some ambiguity here; wondering where others come out.

Sweat is a very complex guy. My reply is above hidden in a "spoiler." 

Edited by DakotaLavender
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On 12/24/2018 at 12:51 PM, Quilt Fairy said:

That guy got two women to marry him?  Wow.  Just..... wow.

Some women are so starved for dick they'll do anyone.

 

re:Sweat: he just looked sooo much like my SIL's bro I had a hard time separating the two. Took me aan episode to get into  him.

Edited by One Tough Cookie
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On 12/24/2018 at 12:26 PM, Chaos Theory said:

New York may have the death penalty but it never actually uses it.   While laws regarding the imposition of capital punishment in the State of New York are still on the books, it is no longer enforced as it is been declared unconstitutional in the state and this ruling has not been overturned. The last execution took place in 1963, when Eddie Mays was electrocuted at Sing Sing Prison. 

 

From what I read Tilly was never very well liked in the community.    I think she  was always described as stand offish.  The fact that she cheated on her husband and was able to rustle full and total custody is mind blowing.    When she told her son that his own father didn't want to see him and to "Call Lyle daddy."  Has got to be the most fucked up line of the entire series.  

Tilly was as sociopathic as Sweat and Matt...certainly as manipulative as them. I agree with her first husband's assessment of her.

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I think this episode was absolutely necessary, seeing more of the three main characters and their backstories, and being reminded that, yes, these three are all awful, scummy people, that really need to get whats coming to them. I think, as others have said, that this episode needed to happen now, right when Sweat and Matt escaped the prison, when there could be some empathetic "yeah, they made it!" feelings from the audience. Ben Stiller has done a great job throughout the show in not glorifying the criminals, but when you spend enough time with ANY characters, you start to relate to them (look at the many shows starring criminals and other anti heroes) and even root for them, even if you know you shouldn't. This episode, however, was a great reminder that these guys were in jail for a reason, and that Tilly is no hapless victim of manipulative masterminds. She wasn't a killer like Matt and Sweat, but she has always been selfish and awful. 

Most of the Sweat story was actually about his victim, a hard working, kind police officer who was brutally killed because he came across Sweat and his buddies in the middle of some kind of crime. He was also played by Hoyt from True Blood, which just made his death even sadder for me. One beat that I found to be interesting was that Sweat whispering that he was sorry to the cop before they finished him off, and he seemed sincere. It doesent mean that he isnt totally guilt, and he has never seen very torn up about it later, but it was clearly a sudden crime of "oh shit, cop!" and not the more cold blooded killing we saw with Matt. 

The Matt story is more about Matt, and we see how he got his hacksaw nickname. Damn, dude. That shit was seriously messed up. Matt might have a sleazy charm to him, but he is also a terrifying sociopath who can easily kidnap, torture, and murder a man, and then hack his body up, without missing a beat, is super brutal. That being said, Matt isnt exactly a criminal mastermind. He isnt stupid exactly, but he makes really dumb choices, like getting high while committing his crimes, and showing the victim off to the local strippers. I can see why on the outside, he would be the screw up. 

And then, Tilly. Tilly really is such an awful person, even without the criminals. She is manipulative, selfish, and is so desperate for everything going her way, that she will screw over everything in her path, including her own friends and family. Honestly, that scene where Tilly was telling her son that she had to call Lyle dad now, and even has to change his name, was one of the more messed up part of the episode. And thats in an episode where a guy was hacked to pieces and dumped in a river! Tilly might not be super bright, but, like Matt, she can be kind of charming in a shallow way, and can get people to do what they want by pushing certain buttons. She really is loathsome, and is utterly lacking in self awareness that she is so awful.

Edited by tennisgurl
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I read an interview with Stiller the other day--the last episode  is longer---my cable guide says 100 minutes.

This episode hit me just the way I think it was intended--up until last week, I was just watching--I had not followed the case that closely when it happened and within the show, I had begun to kind of get a little sympathetic for them-then right before I watched it, I did a little reading and read some more of the details, so seeing their crimes hit me right the way I think it was intended and put me back on the right side of things.

I'm going to need to hold it together for the final episode--this one was very upsetting.

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Ok, I'll try this again:

 

Lifers should NEVER be in  a shop like sewing where they had access to implements. Well, they had Tilly and she was the dullest implement  available to  them. And most useful.
Lifers should be in lockdown 24hrs and  random but frequent shakedown. If this country took addiction seriously and put addicts in lockdown rehab,the prions  might be more manageable. No nude pictues,gourmet coffee,or, over friendly guards,who should be  better trained in how to recognize manipulation and how to deal with these dirtbags.

Spoiler

 

And Gene Parlmer? He served 6 freaking months.  But he lost his pension .Personally I think he should do 4-5 years.  He should be kissing his lawyer's ass.

 

I heard,but cant verify, that Tilly made a deal to prevent being charged with sexual offenses which could have landed her more time and she would be labeled sex offender. There is no such thing as consensual sex between inmate/employee.  It's considered rape or sexual assault.

 

Edited by Drogo · Reason: Added spoiler tags.
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On 12/25/2018 at 1:47 PM, One Tough Cookie said:

Some women are so starved for dick they'll do anyone.

 

re:Sweat: he just looked sooo much like my SIL's bro I had a hard time separating the two. Took me aan episode to get into  him.

So funny. Dano is also my BIL’s doppelgänger. We’ve noticed the resemblance for years. 

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On ‎12‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 10:26 AM, meira.hand said:

I actually felt this was a really smart way to tell this story. If you do not know anything about the real story behind these characters, than its possible to watch the previous episodes with a real interest about the prison escape and almost see their point of view and need to get out.  You know they are in jail for a good reason but its more theoretical than visceral as we don't really see them as particularly violent during this period. Especially Sweat is portrayed very low key and we are so used to killing in TV series that we become a little numb to it. The way they spent 14 minutes showing us how nice and decent the traffic cop was until we felt like we knew and liked him and then watch his stomach churning brutal and cruel murder, brought home who Sweat really was in a way that prepares us to really want him to be punished in almost a personal way. As Matt was already quite repulsive in the first episodes, what he did and how, did not need as much time. I feel that if I had seen these scenes in the first part of the series I would have simply stopped watching.

I couldn't' agree more.   I actually had to distract myself with my phone during Matt's scenes because it was so disturbing.  I wouldn't have voluntarily watched a show about these protagonists had I known what horrible people they are/were.  Plus, it changes the audience's perceptions in time for the manhunt so we can better empathize with the town.

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Per the reenactment on the show, Sweat was not the murderer in that he didn't fire the fatal shot.  However, he started the shooting and ran the deputy over with his car twice, inducing injuries from which the deputy could have died.  And he did nothing to stop the person who did fire the fatal shot.  So, yep, he's a murderer whether he wants to call himself one or not. 

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On ‎12‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 4:02 PM, PrincessPurrsALot said:

Per the reenactment on the show, Sweat was not the murderer in that he didn't fire the fatal shot.  However, he started the shooting and ran the deputy over with his car twice, inducing injuries from which the deputy could have died.  And he did nothing to stop the person who did fire the fatal shot.  So, yep, he's a murderer whether he wants to call himself one or not. 

Sweat didn't deliver the fatal shot, not because he didn't intend to.. but because his aim sucks so someone beat him to it.   

Spoiler

He shot approximately 10 times at the deputy and hit him in the intestines... that's a fatal wound if untreated for more than a few hours, so regardless of running him over with the car and/or someone else delivering two fatal headshots, Tarsia was going to die in that park from Sweat's wound. 

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A truly horrible episode of television that soured me on the show altogether. It was slow, it was unpleasant, it was uninteresting at times (good thing we got to see the previously unseen cop purchase some stuff from a convenience store...really exciting stuff there), and the flashback nature of it made me want to skip forward to get back to the escape timeline. If a show makes you want to skip forward then it's not doing its primary job of entertaining you.

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