S07.E06: Due Process

[TwistedandBored]

I must be a messed up person because I did not think anything Felicity did tonight the "crossed the line". Hell, I was cheering for her to end Diaz mainly because I know how incompetent Star City's police department especially with Dinah in charge. 

Felicity doing everything in her power to get her husband released got them the result they needed. Oliver will be free thanks to her. Anatoly is free thanks to her. I really loved that whole way scene between Felicity and Laurel 2. You can just tell how much Felicity is hurting right now. I wish she had less judgmental person to talk at this moment in her life.

Also, I know this board hates Curtis the most out of the 3 but I hate them all the same. They just take turns on who I hate the most each given episode. This episode and season, it is Dinah that I hate the most.  She is beyond incompetent and she never fails to blame others for her mistakes. Her being judgmental 24/7 is also exhausting to watch. So, the fact that she is judging Felicity and Oliver in the future leads to me to be on Olicity's side automatically. 

[JamieLynn832002]

25 minutes ago, TwistedandBored said:

I must be a messed up person because I did not think anything Felicity did tonight the "crossed the line"

I agree, the closest I came to thinking she was crossing was when she was willing to let Anatoly die and even then, while I love Anatoly, he's a mob boss who willingly joined Diaz in trying to destroy Oliver, his family and his city so I was mostly okay with it.

[BkWurm1]

9 hours ago, bijoux said:

One thing I have to give to the show is that it managed to surprise me. Never did I expect collective dumping on Diggle here. One I support, mind you. Oliver? Sure. That's like a biannual event, but not Dig really. And not for this long of a stretch. 

I'm holding out hope because I do think he'll have a revelation about his new job and realize he had it better before. That's when he could also ask introspective questions of himself including if he'd been a good enough friend.  Or if he'd hid behind the rules rather than rely on his intuition and loyalty.  Maybe distance will make him feel less justified in his hands-off approach. 

He gave her limited resources but didn't open his arms to her emotional needs.  I could see him being afraid to open up because what happened to her family was what he was afraid could happen to his.  So he kept her at a distance for what she represented.

3 minutes ago, JamieLynn832002 said:

I agree, the closest I came to thinking she was crossing was when she was willing to let Anatoly die and even then, while I love Anatoly, he's a mob boss who willingly joined Diaz in trying to destroy Oliver, his family and his city so I was mostly okay with it.

Me too.  Anatoly owed her the risk she put him in for his actions last year.  

[apinknightmare]

3 minutes ago, JamieLynn832002 said:

I agree, the closest I came to thinking she was crossing was when she was willing to let Anatoly die and even then, while I love Anatoly, he's a mob boss who willingly joined Diaz in trying to destroy Oliver, his family and his city so I was mostly okay with it.

I think it was @KenyaJ (forgive me if I'm wrong) who said that this show greatly overestimates her moral compass - and I couldn't agree more. I can go along with a whole lot of these people doing a whole lot of questionable stuff if I think it's for the right reason. For example: I can't get behind Black Siren melting Vince's brain, but I could get behind her melting Diaz's. I can't get too upset at Felicity using Anatoly to get at Diaz, because Anatoly willingly threw in with him.

[Cthulhudrew]

12 hours ago, tangerine95 said:

I like Felicity's storyline this season but I also think they're kinda going over the top with this idea that Felicity is so dark rn and she's never been dark,she's always been "squicky clean" or whatever.I just don't think that's the case and she's always been okay with some morally grey stuff and even if she had killed Diaz it wouldn't have been that unimaginable for Felicity.It feels like they emphasize the darkness stuff to make the audience believe in villain Felicity in the future.

I second this. After last season and Felicity's turn to the "dark side" with Helix, I'm not sure why anyone (let alone Diggle) is surprised by the lengths she'd go for Oliver this season. I think the chip in his arm is malfunctioning and giving him selective amnesia. Another problem we can lay at Curtis' door.

[La Dee Da]

I was struck by a feeling of fatigue in both the future and the present scenes. Future Dinah and crew were so blasé  about the fate of a presumably close ally. Diggle has been extremely remote this season - I’m comfortable with him being at odds with Felicity, but the arguing has generally been based in affection and concern. His attitude was more that he was piqued that he was going to lose the Argus employee of the month award because Felicity dared to be in the same place as his swat team.  If the future is fixed and the characters are so detached, why should I care about how they get there? 

That said, there was great energy in the Felicity-Diaz scene. Her expression when everyone else was celebrating their great “team effort” - you knew what she was weighing.

arrow is by far not the only culprit, but I dislike the “I never said that Colonel Mustard was stabbed in the library!” approach to revealing that a villain has slipped up. I wished they relied on us remembering the plot details and on the actor to physically show his/her realization. 

[KillahBee007]

I see you, writers. I see what you’re doing to Diggle.  It sucks that the writers are writing him so OOC. It sucks that 

Spoiler

they are going to have him working with Curtis to search for a painting.  Arrow has become National Treasure.  

 

I’m perfectly fine with Diggle having his own storyline but not at the expense of the n00bs  or his friendship with Felicity. Enough is enough. 

 

I NEVER thought I’d prefer KC over JH but yet here we are. SMH. 

Edited November 21, 2018 by KillahBee007
It’s n00bs not b00bs

[tennisgurl]

Trying to pick the worst of NTA is like trying to decide if you want a splinter, a cold, or be forced to drink old milk. All awful, just different kinds of awful. And all terrible in their own, unique ways. 

[Mellowyellow]

20 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Trying to pick the worst of NTA is like trying to decide if you want a splinter, a cold, or be forced to drink old milk. All awful, just different kinds of awful. And all terrible in their own, unique ways. 

Never has a truer post been made!!!!!!!! I wish I could like this 10 more times!

[tv echo]

The Black Siren redemption arc reminds me of Once Upon a Time, when they went to extreme lengths to turn Evil Regina into a hero (iirc, they even split her into two people, one good and one evil). Just forget about her slaughter of entire villages, everyone deserves a second chance, villains are entitled to happy endings too, etc.

Edited November 21, 2018 by tv echo

[insomniadreams88]

7 hours ago, La Dee Da said:

Future Dinah and crew were so blasé  about the fate of a presumably close ally.

Yep. Which I don't understand. And that was before they found Felicity's "plans." It was like, "Well, she changed, so she no longer matters." I hate that William had to remind them they all loved her. Especially because so far, we're seeing nothing in the present or future that suggests Dinah even cares about her just as a citizen of the city she's sworn to protect as its (former) police captain/vigilante. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

This reminds me that I didn't care for, NOT AT ALL, that Roy apparently doesn't give two shits for Felicity and has been quick to condemn her in the future. I see what you're doing, Show and I'm not drinking that Kool-Aid. So far, Beth SUCKS.

[tv echo]

[tessaray]

Just catching up with my latest batch of Arrow episodes and I'm a little thrown by the fact that the best thing about Arrow recently has been not-Laurel and Felicity. KC and EBR work very well together. Everything else... well, not much to say there that you all haven't said better.

[BkWurm1]

10 hours ago, tv echo said:

The Black Siren redemption arc reminds me of Once Upon a Time, when they went to extreme lengths to turn Evil Regina into a hero (iirc, they even split her into two people, one good and one evil). Just forget about her slaughter of entire villages, everyone deserves a second chance, villains are entitled to happy endings too, etc.

 

1

I keep thinking about Smallville and Tess Mercer.  She literally stomped to death someone in her heels, released Doomsday and then when that didn't make Clark take over the world,  threw in with Zod and was gearing up to sell out the human race (Had the evil towers already built) only to have a change of heart later (she was lonely?) and almost randomly be turned into the new Watchtower in the last season and was paling around all buddy-buddy with all the heroes.  I actually really liked how they wrote the new Tess but it only worked if you ignored her history the previous two years.  

2 hours ago, tessaray said:

Just catching up with my latest batch of Arrow episodes and I'm a little thrown by the fact that the best thing about Arrow recently has been not-Laurel and Felicity. KC and EBR work very well together. Everything else... well, not much to say there that you all haven't said better.

It's a strange new world.  I'm still very conflicted and yet, it's true.  

Edited November 21, 2018 by BkWurm1

[Primal Slayer]

I think thats just what a lot of tv shows do. Spike was a major villain in Buffy, tried to kill everyone multiple times over 3 years and then they take him in when he is de-fanged and he joins the group and later on goes on to date Buffy, same with Anya.  Unless you start in the 1st/2nd season to do a real proper redemption takes very long. 

[statsgirl]

On 11/19/2018 at 11:07 PM, JamieLynn832002 said:

I feel like FutureRoy should have gotten suspicious something was up the second he was told Felicity had started calling herself The Calculator. He knows how ridiculous she thought that codename was and shouldn't believe she'd ever call herself that even if he does for some reason accept that she turned dark.

I think it should have been a clue to Roy, who knows her best, that All Is Not What It Seems.

On 11/20/2018 at 11:35 AM, Angel12d said:

I can't get over the fact that the NTA a-holes and Diggle all celebrated like they'd actually been the ones hunting down Diaz for 6 months. And then to rub salt in the wound, they left Felicity visibly upset only for Diggle to not comfort her at all. Haven't any of these horrible people ever heard of a hug or maybe thought to ask if she's okay? Maybe mention Oliver and wish he was there, too? I HATE THEM SO MUCH.

 

Consistency with the s5 mid season finale after Billy's death.

On 11/20/2018 at 9:24 PM, BkWurm1 said:

He gave her limited resources but didn't open his arms to her emotional needs.  I could see him being afraid to open up because what happened to her family was what he was afraid could happen to his.  So he kept her at a distance for what she represented.

Maaaaybe. But then, let's see that on-screen, Diggle trying to balance those two opposing emotions. It would be a lot more interesting than seeing him be Papa to Dinah, Curtis and Rene.

22 hours ago, La Dee Da said:

I was struck by a feeling of fatigue in both the future and the present scenes. Future Dinah and crew were so blasé  about the fate of a presumably close ally.

It really was "well she's gone over to the dark side so we don't care that she's dead". All four of those people knew her, Zoe had possibly grown up with her around, her goodbye to Roy in s3 was tearful and for William she was a mother lioness who defended him. Who are these shallow people?

15 hours ago, tv echo said:

The Black Siren redemption arc reminds me of Once Upon a Time, when they went to extreme lengths to turn Evil Regina into a hero (iirc, they even split her into two people, one good and one evil). Just forget about her slaughter of entire villages, everyone deserves a second chance, villains are entitled to happy endings too, etc.

 

You're right, it's so much Regina-like. The show-runners adore her and each season alternated between making her good because they wanted her like that, having her do horrible things because that is how the show worked best.

Edited November 22, 2018 by statsgirl

[SmallScreenDiva]

The difference between Regina and Laurel is that Lana can at least sell her storyline. Cassidy’s face was moving in ways that had nothing to do with the emotions of the scenes in this episode, unless she was trying to portray a short-circuiting android. 

[AudienceofOne]

Honestly this is the least-worst Laurel I've seen in a while but I just don't know why Laurel is still a thing. Couldn't Felicity have made friends with a new DA and this whole plot line would have unfolded in the same way without all this awful?

Edited November 22, 2018 by AudienceofOne

[Delphi]

2 hours ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

The difference between Regina and Laurel is that Lana can at least sell her storyline. Cassidy’s face was moving in ways that had nothing to do with the emotions of the scenes in this episode, unless she was trying to portray a short-circuiting android. 

Lana is indeed a better actress than Katie,  but I still buy Laurel's redemption arc more,  because at the end of the day while Black Siren has done awful things,  she has not killed villages of people and then told people that she didn't regret a single action,  and she, as far as I know,  hasn't tried to have  a sad man kill a recently orphaned princess... God, I hate Regina and her entire redemption. 

[Mellowyellow]

Whenever Regina is mentioned I keep expecting @scarynikki12 to appear! =P

***

Since they need to keep KC around I think it would be wise to chuck her in a few scenes where BS is still clearly a lunatic (like hunting the judge) but not have her do anything overly awful despite being a lunatic. That might sit better than a "I am totes good now" redemption. 

I do hope that Felicity is not going to be fully saddled with her as much as I enjoy their scenes. I am wary when it comes to this show.

The biggest problems here are the ffing useless Noobs who just won't die (we have 20 years of Dinah to look forward to. Good grief!).

Edited November 22, 2018 by Mellowyellow

[Featherhat]

In retrospect I was 100% done with Regina after that infamous "poor sad Regina" Lasagne scene. The difference was at that point I was invested in most of the other characters. Here I loathe the noobs and that won't change, since future DD is even worse than current DD, Oliver is separate and Dig is being sacrificed for this plot so. Shrug, BS ends up becoming better by default and the compare contrast with Felicity/scenes with EBR so hey, congrats writers I guess. 

I agree @Mellowyellow now that they've found out that sticking her with Felicity actually works (once again) I hope she doesn't end up on BS Island all the time. I'd like to see an unhinged but not actively killing people BS, that might work, especially since they're oh so dedicated to keeping DD around. Be interesting since Quentin is gone if BS ever brings up the fact that the writers basically copy pasted her own mother's name in a bid to get fans to accept her to avoid a Sara situation. 

5 hours ago, statsgirl said:

It really was "well she's gone over to the dark side so we don't care that she's dead". All four of those people knew her, Zoe had possibly grown up with her around, her goodbye to Roy in s3 was tearful and for William she was a mother lioness who defended him. Who are these shallow people?

That's the problem with FFs they have to keep things so vague about what happened that Will can't go "well the last time I saw her she was fighting for justice" and because there might be "twists" *eyeroll* coming up Roy can't go "I don't believe she'd ever go bad, she loves her death fake outs". JH is a terrible actress so even if DD is supposed to feel anything except for the need to scowl and pout we won't know even if/when Things Are Revealed.  

Edited November 22, 2018 by Featherhat

[Mary0360]

42 minutes ago, Delphi said:

Lana is indeed a better actress than Katie,  but I still buy Laurel's redemption arc more,  because at the end of the day while Black Siren has done awful things,  she has not killed villages of people and then told people that she didn't regret a single action,  and she, as far as I know,  hasn't tried to have  a sad man kill a recently orphaned princess... God, I hate Regina and her entire redemption. 

Didn't Black Siren bring down an entire tower building with people still in it on The Flash? And then there was all those brains she melted and people she killed for funsies. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

3 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

I do hope that Felicity is not going to be fully saddled with her as much as I enjoy their scenes. I am wary when it comes to this show.

Well, maybe don’t say you enjoy their scenes, just to be safe 😜 i’m Only half-kidding. Since some people do seem to enjoy the teamup, and Tonya is so proud of herself, I have no doubt the show will now stick Felicity with BS like glue (Oliver and Felicity would be making out and BS would pop out from behind a column so she and Felicity could go hero-ing together.) This will be like when Diggle was stuck with LL in season 4. 

Anyway, I would have totally cheered if Felicity pulled the trigger on Diaz but this show has such a weirdly inconsistent view on killing. Emily has been amazing in this arc and this episode I thought she really sold the whole “I’ve had enough of this douchebag” without going over the top. That single tear after she says “Oliver is coming home?” Had ME tearing up. 

[ladylaw99]

All I want  to say is: 1. I want my old Diggle back.  2. Noobs gone 3. Oliver out of jail (I'm tired of this already) 4. Diaz dead and never to return 5. Stan to be evil on his own and not be tied to Diaz

 

I don't believe for one second Felicity is dead or this evil person that would kill a bunch of innocent people on purpose.  This is all a cover up to something else.  I didn't mind the FF at first but now I can do without.  I do like future Will and Zoey.

I still hate Oliver's beard.

[scarynikki12]

9 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Whenever Regina is mentioned I keep expecting @scarynikki12 to appear! =P

Oh I'm here.  I'm holding myself back because I can easily go on a rant about Regina's "redemption" that will take the thread so far off topic it will never come back. 

I will say one thing that is Arrow specific: we may see Siren go the way of Regina in that everyone just decides that she's redeemed without her putting in any effort (eg, apologizing to her victims or their loved ones, returning to Earth 2 to turn herself in for her crimes, no longer stealing Laurel's life) but I am completely confident that Siren won't take over the show like Regina did. 

[Primal Slayer]

I'm enjoying her redemption arc since it doesnt seem like they are trying to turn her into a total goody two shoes. She still has her bite, rough around the edges, and right now is in a very grey area. Keep her in the anti-hero route and things will be great. I wouldnt mind if they have her quit being the DA and find something more suitable towards her but I doubt the show will do that since everyone must be in a high position job. But I do wish that they'd show the downside of having to be E1 Laurel, ignoring the characters past as Black Canary is the wrong way to go since she should have a big target on her back by criminals apart from worrying about Diaz. 

I will be surprised if we dont have plot later in the season that requires her to go undercover as a villain and being tempted to revert to her old ways full time again. 

[AudienceofOne]

My problem with her so-called "redemption arc" is not that she's had magic wand redemption - these shows are notorious for that.

It's that she simply declared herself redeemed and is now walking around lecturing people on ethics and morality like a total asshole. Regina is a good analogy for her - except of course that Regina was a main character in her show so she ruined it. Laurel is more like a rash that just niggles you every now and then and one of the main reasons for that is that I have no idea why she's even on the damn show anymore. It doesn't need her. 

[Primal Slayer]

10 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said:

My problem with her so-called "redemption arc" is not that she's had magic wand redemption - these shows are notorious for that.

It's that she simply declared herself redeemed and is now walking around lecturing people on ethics and morality like a total asshole. Regina is a good analogy for her - except of course that Regina was a main character in her show so she ruined it. Laurel is more like a rash that just niggles you every now and then and one of the main reasons for that is that I have no idea why she's even on the damn show anymore. It doesn't need her. 

Is she though? She is attempting to make sure Felicity doesnt go down a similar path that she did. She very much stayed in her own lane until she was asked for her help.

[AudienceofOne]

7 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Is she though? She is attempting to make sure Felicity doesnt go down a similar path that she did. She very much stayed in her own lane until she was asked for her help.

Which is why it didn't bother me so much last week. It was bordering on being insufferable but kind of wasn't. But this week she was very much insufferable. Declaring yourself redeemed and then getting annoyed when people don't immediately forgive you for your past transgressions? But also that lecture she gave Oliver was just the f'ing worst. "There are both good and bad in people"??

There was no ambiguity or nuance in Black Siren's villainy - she did terrible stuff because she took sick pleasure in it. I didn't mind her attachment to Quentin - sociopaths often form intense attachments to people, especially family members who give them love and security unconditionally. I can even buy her identifying with Felicity's drive to save her husband. But you don't get to say "I've decided I'm a good person now so how dare you bring up all those times I tortured and murdered a whole heap of people for fun. I mean, that was a whole week ago."

[tessaray]

I almost posted a comment earlier about BS's cheap and lazy redemption arc and then realized it was an expensive and lazy arc, in that I still miss Quentin.  But at least it was something tangible and honestly, Katie is selling it, IMO.  She has an element of sadness that I've never seen in her performance before.  I can buy BS doggedly plugging away at the law stuff in a way I never bought OG Laurel as a lawyer.  (Though it's funny they both are terrible at it.) 

I can't really compare her arc to Regina.  Not-Laurel may be irritated that no one believes that Quentin's loss could have had that much of an impact on her or that she is capable of change but she doesn't ooze arrogant entitlement.  And people aren't forgiving her instantly.  

ETA:  I quit watching Arrow for the better part of a year after Laurel became BC, so it's not like I ever liked Laurel.  This version I can tolerate.  

[tangerine95]

I agree Regina is kinda similar to BS,only worse because she had a lot more screentime and imo was clearly the writers fave on OUAT.All the Regina redemption stuff legit made me quit the show,it was so annoying.

I think with BS the main issue is she just didn't face any consequences.Usually in redemption arcs there's some suffering involved to sell the redemption.It doesn't have to be jail time if they insist on keeping her on the show but something,some kind of sympathetic struggle.Maybe they think Lance dying is it but I can't say I buy that tbh.

BS instead got a new life with a nice career,a great reputation and basically a clean slate to do whatever she wants now despite her crimes.The other characters get a bit snarky with her but they aren't a threat to her freedom or anything like that.Felicity is even becoming her friend somehow and Dinah is supporting her and believing she's changed.And all it took was a few episodes.

I think that kind of redemption would have been more tolerable if she was someone who was a bad guy but didn't really enjoy it,if she was more of a ends justify the mean or actually forced into villainy by someone more powerful.Instead since she showed up it's been mostly enjoying killing and seeking it out on her own and a few moments of caring about Lance who only cared about her because she looks like his daughter.It just wasn't well written imo.I actually liked most of her scenes with Felicity this season but you basically have to ignore the past seasons to make it not seem unearned and weird.

[apinknightmare]

Her ~redemption didn't really bother me until last week, when she gave Oliver that a-hole speech about good and bad, that I know the writers meant to really be some kind of defining moment for her. Which she then totally negated because she ran right back into a comfy, safe apartment that she has because she got a comfy, safe job by pretending to be someone she isn't - which is something she had just claimed not to be doing anymore. I know everyone here has different requirements for her redemption. Personally, I don't need her groveling or weeping in regret over her days of gleeful murdering (I accept that this is something the show likely isn't going to address, because the writers are nothing if not lazy - they've already justified it as getting ~revenge for Oliver and Quentin on her earth).

But I do need to see her at some point disengage from this cushy life that she's gotten through being a lying liar who lies. I need for her to be uncomfortable and really work for it, instead of just coasting by on OG Laurel's name and education and friendships. I doubt it'll happen, but it would be nice. 

[Primal Slayer]

20 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said:

Which is why it didn't bother me so much last week. It was bordering on being insufferable but kind of wasn't. But this week she was very much insufferable. Declaring yourself redeemed and then getting annoyed when people don't immediately forgive you for your past transgressions? But also that lecture she gave Oliver was just the f'ing worst. "There are both good and bad in people"??

There was no ambiguity or nuance in Black Siren's villainy - she did terrible stuff because she took sick pleasure in it. I didn't mind her attachment to Quentin - sociopaths often form intense attachments to people, especially family members who give them love and security unconditionally. I can even buy her identifying with Felicity's drive to save her husband. But you don't get to say "I've decided I'm a good person now so how dare you bring up all those times I tortured and murdered a whole heap of people for fun. I mean, that was a whole week ago."

I dont think she expects to be automatically forgiven. Sure she got annoyed by getting shut out of something that she has been helping with especially with them working with another bad guy. Her going on the defense with Oliver, to me was more about getting a harsh reminder of someone that she is attempting to move away from which seems human. 

18 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

I think that kind of redemption would have been more tolerable if she was someone who was a bad guy but didn't really enjoy it,if she was more of a ends justify the mean or actually forced into villainy by someone more powerful.Instead since she showed up it's been mostly enjoying killing and seeking it out on her own and a few moments of caring about Lance who only cared about her because she looks like his daughter.It just wasn't well written imo.I actually liked most of her scenes with Felicity this season but you basically have to ignore the past seasons to make it not seem unearned and weird.

I agree that it wasnt written well last season, MG/WM spent the whole first half of the season just writing things very black/white instead of adding any depth to her as a villain which is why I am glad that BS is doing the complete opposite thus far and I wouldnt be surprised if they end up retconning some things. 

[Mary0360]

1 hour ago, AudienceofOne said:

Which is why it didn't bother me so much last week. It was bordering on being insufferable but kind of wasn't. But this week she was very much insufferable. Declaring yourself redeemed and then getting annoyed when people don't immediately forgive you for your past transgressions? But also that lecture she gave Oliver was just the f'ing worst. "There are both good and bad in people"??

There was no ambiguity or nuance in Black Siren's villainy - she did terrible stuff because she took sick pleasure in it. I didn't mind her attachment to Quentin - sociopaths often form intense attachments to people, especially family members who give them love and security unconditionally. I can even buy her identifying with Felicity's drive to save her husband. But you don't get to say "I've decided I'm a good person now so how dare you bring up all those times I tortured and murdered a whole heap of people for fun. I mean, that was a whole week ago."

I mean are we saying that when Oliver came back from the gambit and five years away and Laurel was calling him human scum basically, that people would have been okay with the story stopping at Oliver going "But Laurel I'm redeemed now so this anger is totally a waste of time" and that be the end of it?  

 

The only thing that I will say about Sirens redemption arch is that it's clearly a continuing example of the writers lack of care when it comes to Laurel Lance. They aren't willing to put in the time or energy to giving her a fleshed out redemption arch just like they weren't willing to put the time and energy into giving E1 Laurel a fleshed out hero arch. She decided she was going to be a hero, took a couple of boxing lessons from Ted and a couple of lessons from Nyssa had one or two episodes of "struggle" and hey presto overnight she was as good as Oliver as a Vigilante, apparently a well known and idolised hero to Star City even though she hadn't actually acheived anything of her own sole merit and fully intergrated into the team. 

 

I think this is just the writers M.O Right now the bulk of their energy and where they are really taking their time to flesh out archs is Olivers prison storyline, Felicitys flirtation with darkness and the future flashes. And I guess since Laurel fans are ecstatic with what they've gotten for BS, going by what I've seen on twitter, even if it's cheap and lazy, I can understand in some sense  the writers going "okay let's just make her redeemed so we've got something for her to do and so we can put her with someone". 

[BkWurm1]

Quote

Maaaaybe. But then, let's see that on-screen, Diggle trying to balance those two opposing emotions.

That's my hope for the future, that we'll get a reason why he was so hands off in helping Felicity. Because even if he was getting in trouble for the expense of looking for Diaz those first five months, when Felicity was actually home and needed HIM, not just Argus, Diggle never gave of himself except to lecture her about giving up on Oliver and moving on.  There were no acts of care.  Not even a simple hug or attempt to leave a message to check up on her.  They could have easily included him trying and going to her voice mail or Lyla telling him to give her space if need be, otherwise I don't see how Diggle can't be thought to by the writers to have failed her on at least an emotional level.  

[apinknightmare]

I would really love it if Diggle's failings as a friend were addressed, but it's difficult to tell whether they were purposely done as part of a larger arc, or if his character was thrown in the garbage simply to give Felicity a reason to turn to Watson and then Black Siren, to give her a storyline now and make us question what's going on with her in the future. We have way more examples of the latter on this show (like Diggle's whole arc from last season), so it doesn't make me very hopeful for the former. 

[insomniadreams88]

The thing is we’re supposed to believe Felicity could have gone evil in the future so they’re showing us stuff in the present to suggest that could be possible. Since I think there’s so much more to the future timeline, I think as that’s revealed, we’re going to see of course Felicity remains a hero in the present day. 

So we’re supposed to think if Diggle’s questioning her in the present, it makes sense that Dinah’s given up on her in the future. 

But once that doesn’t need to be the case anymore, they’ll probably ignore all of Diggle’s “concerns” from this episode. 

For all we know, something involving the dark side of ARGUS could lead Diggle down his own dark path, but he’ll think that’s okay because it’ll be his family at risk. And he’ll expect Felicity to help him, even though he didn’t help her. (And she will, of course.) 

[BkWurm1]

4 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

But once that doesn’t need to be the case anymore, they’ll probably ignore all of Diggle’s “concerns” from this episode. 

For all we know, something involving the dark side of ARGUS could lead Diggle down his own dark path, but he’ll think that’s okay because it’ll be his family at risk. And he’ll expect Felicity to help him, even though he didn’t help her. (And she will, of course.) 

I agree that it only likely will be addressed if it somehow ties into HIS redemption arc but that everyone is supposed to have one has me not yet ready to give up hope they will address his impersonal manner toward Felicity.  

[Angel12d]

16 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

So we’re supposed to think if Diggle’s questioning her in the present, it makes sense that Dinah’s given up on her in the future. 

I mean, Dinah is awful so if she's given up on her, I'm still gonna be like "YES FELICITY!" 😂

Same as when she questioned trusting William because he's Oliver's son. IDGAF. Future Olicity probably don't trust her either and that's fine by me!

[Mellowyellow]

Oh gawd Dinah is so awful and JH's acting is not doing her any favours.

The character is written so badly (useless, sanctimonious amongst many other bad qualities) and played by an actress totally devoid of charm. 

It's hard to be able to manage flat and awful at the same time but that's what Dinah is. 

And Curtis.....why is Curtis the way he is? I usually wave these writers off but what are they hoping to achieve with Curtis?

[Mary0360]

Yeah I agree they decided to make Diggle sanctimonious because it services their future flashes story so they will handwave or ignore his hypocrisy because even with a whole new writers room they still ultimately put plot before character unfortunately. 

[jay741982]

12 hours ago, Mary0360 said:

Yeah I agree they decided to make Diggle sanctimonious because it services their future flashes story so they will handwave or ignore his hypocrisy because even with a whole new writers room they still ultimately put plot before character unfortunately. 

I actually think they just might reveal that in 20 years Diggle is actually the one that's dead and Maybe ARGUS played a part in it. Who knows Maybe Diggle being killed is a reason Future Felicity fakes her death and possibly Oliver as well

[Mary0360]

You know what I was thinking about. Remember in season 5 how Oliver called Anatoly and gave him permission to kill Chase in return to do business in the city without Oliver stopping him. How Diggle and the show didn't imply Oliver was acting evil or that he wouldn't be a hero? In fact didn't Diggle spend the whole episode convincing Oliver of what a good person he was and how he was better then this. And yet Felicitys actions were probably less dark then that and yet Diggle and the show seems to be sitting in judgement and combined with the future flashes implying she has evil impulses within her. I know it's all going to Bea misdirect but thinking about it just bugs me because in an episode where they talk about not shoving people into good or bad boxes they seem to write Felicity as either being shoved into one or the other. 

[way2interested]

4 minutes ago, Mary0360 said:

I know it's all going to Bea misdirect but thinking about it just bugs me because in an episode where they talk about not shoving people into good or bad boxes they seem to write Felicity as either being shoved into one or the other. 

Tbh, I just saw it just more as showing that Felicity is not in a box since the argument would be that she's not all good since she was willing to sacrifice lives to get what she wants (and how her admitted goal to Anatoly later wasn't to keep her family safe, it was to kill Diaz. It's for those reasons, but her solution--before BS came in and the show showed that Felicity isn't """gone""" or all the way evil, since the idea of getting Oliver back was brought in, which parallels the beginning of the episode when she abruptly dropped her plans for Diaz to convince BS to try to help Oliver--this episode was to try to kill him). BS was supposed to be the other side of this plot, someone who's not all bad since she was willing to do something to help someone else, which is why they had BS and Felicity hang out in the previous episode so they could set this up. Also to keep up Oliver's whole prison arc of "maybe some of these people in prison aren't that bad or at least not deserving of cruel and unusual punishment," to continue to be tested since his seemingly innocent friend was lying to him, but for reasons we don't know yet. 

The show's done this already, but it looks like Beth wants a chance to write it and to make it a much bigger plot point. The problem with this is that just like some people can't ever actually move BS out of her villain story (because of past experiences, remorse issues, etc.), it's hard to ever really move Felicity as actually anything close to bad (also from past experiences, genuinely not malicious reasoning for her actions, etc.). 

[Genki]

I think NTA being so awful has worn down my resistance to BS. Since they are finally writing to KC's (limited) acting strengths, and actually partnering her with Felicity in a believable way (even at the cost of Diggle - but I'm not really sure if Pod-Diggle is for BS acceptance or for NTA relevance) and calling her out on-screen I can accept her continued presence on the show, which was not possible last season.

The sad thing was that BS was only one who used Diaz's capture to get Oliver out of prison (I assume- since we don't know the deal Oliver made and we don't know how they found out about Diaz's capture). However the fact that Dinah was crowing (pun intended) about getting one over the Feds and getting SCPD glory just show how unconcerned she was about Oliver continued incarceration.

Even Felicity was so caught up in ending Diaz, she didn't realise that Oliver could be coming home. I'm not sure if this was to redeem BS or if it was to show Felicity's possible darkness, to prop up the flash-forward implication of Felicity Smoak super-villain (I suspect the latter).

Regardless I will be on Olicity's side because they have earned my loyalty. I'm glad that William is still working towards finding out Felicity's goals in future since all the clues are very personal to their family. But I'm really over Future Dinah and Future Zoe, they are giving me low-key Stan vibes (pretending to be with William but using him to crack Felicity's safegaurds). This might just be my bias, I've always found Stan creepy and I'm glad the narratives finally showing that it was reasonable.

Renee I'm finally indifferent to, he can be enjoyable when not throwing Olicity under the bus and since he has a history of doing it, I wasn't even surprised when he ratted out Felicity, it was just "oh well" whatever Renee.

I've been FF-ing all the ARGUS plot, I regret nothing.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, Genki said:

The sad thing was that BS was only one who used Diaz's capture to get Oliver out of prison

Yeah, well, she's the reason he fucking got away last season, when Oliver had him dead to rights. So this is ALL her fucking fault.

[apinknightmare]

1 hour ago, Genki said:

Even Felicity was so caught up in ending Diaz, she didn't realise that Oliver could be coming home. I'm not sure if this was to redeem BS or if it was to show Felicity's possible darkness, to prop up the flash-forward implication of Felicity Smoak super-villain (I suspect the latter).

I don't think Oliver coming home because Diaz was arrested is the most logical conclusion to come to, especially since it was never offered as a solution thus far in the show. I think it was mainly brought up the way that it was - from Laurel in front of Diaz as something that hadn't been discussed before - because the writers needed it done that way to propel something for the next episode. 

[olicityfan25]

LMFAO this is why I didn't want Felicity working with BS. Because somehow someone will say BS was the one who got out Oliver. Hell no.

[BkWurm1]

12 hours ago, olicityfan25 said:

LMFAO this is why I didn't want Felicity working with BS. Because somehow someone will say BS was the one who got out Oliver. Hell no.

Technically she gets credit for making the deal unless we hear later that the FBI reached out.  But at least if BS did the deal, she was most assuredly not doing it for Oliver.  Likely she was barely doing it for Felicity.  She probably just wanted to stick it to the judge.