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The Starling City Times: News and Media about Arrow

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They discussed Arrow's final season, the COIE crossover, the Future Kids, and the GA/Canaries spinoff (among other things)...

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Arrow: Moira Queen Was the Superhero Mom That Oliver Deserved
BY TIMOTHY DONOHOO   MAY 10, 2020
https://www.cbr.com/arrow-moira-queen-superhero-mom-oliver-deserved/ 

Quote

Though Green Arrow is one of DC Comics' most iconic characters, his parents never got much focus in his publication history. This changed somewhat in J.T. Krul's pre-Flashpoint run on the character, but the parents of Oliver Queen finally became pivotal to his story beginning with the first episode of CW's Arrow. Though Robert Queen was the one to give Oliver his mission to return to Star(ling) City and rid it of the evil elite, it was his mother Moira who shaped the events of the present. A morally ambiguous woman, Moira's choices were all based on protecting her kids, including Oliver.
*  *  *
In the end, for all of her faults and bad decisions, Moira's every action was an attempt to protect her kids, and her courage was reflected in the hero Oliver Queen became. Though she may have failed her city many times, she constantly succeeded in being there for her son and daughter.

 

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KM wrote a piece for Stylecaster here...

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Arrow: 10 Things You Never Noticed About The First Episode
BY WESLEY BELL   MAY 14, 2020
https://screenrant.com/arrow-episode-one-trivia-details/

Quote

... To many watching the episode, the Queen mansion would definitely look familiar.

Especially considering the exterior shots of the building had been used in other comic book related projects such as for Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters in the X-Men franchise and for Lex Luthor's mansion in the Smallville TV series.
*  *  *
Since Bamford's work can often go unappreciated behind-the-scenes, it is interesting to note that he doubled as an actor for the shows pilot episode. It's a very "blink and you'll miss it" role, but for those paying close attention he played one of the gunmen who ultimately gets killed by Oliver early in the episode after a failed attempt to kidnap him and get information.
*  *  *
One of the most iconic lines from Arrow is Oliver's "You have failed this city." which he shouts at the various criminals he takes down in the series. While he doesn't say it in this episode, we do get an explanation of where he gets it from.

Before Robert Queen kills himself and his bodyguard, Dave Hackett, in order to allow Oliver to survive off their already dwindling supplies, he instructs Oliver to right his wrongs when he eventually returns to Starling City, specifically telling his son that he failed Star City. Little did he know that would later inspire the phrase Oliver would use before bringing criminals to justice
*  *  *
On the hozen are several inscriptions that many viewers don't actually know the meanings of. The large character on the front "箭" literally means "arrow" in both Japanese and Chinese. While the inscription on the back translates "毒箭不需要殺" as "poisoned arrows do not need to kill".
*  *  *
The names include Danny Brickwell who was one of the main villains of season 3, Hannibal Bates aka Everyman who was a villain for a Flash episode, and Isabel Rochev who went by Ravager and was an associate of Slade Wilson.

10 Deathstroke's Mask
9  Queen Manor
8  Star City
7  Bamford Cameo
6  Thea's Nickname
5  Sara
4  Famous Last Words
3  The Hozen
2  The Foundry
1  The List

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More Arrow talk - I only transcribed the first portion of this podcast...

Watchover with Jen and Calli: Watchover Ep 76 - Questions from You
May 17, 2020
https://twitter.com/watchover_cast/status/1262177972598890498
https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/watchover-with-jen-and-calli/e/69714101

-- Fan Q: "If you could pick a point of canon divergence for every season of Arrow, what would it be?"
Calli: "So the point we would want to see the show go from being canon to being something different."
Jen: "This is not going to be hard. There is something I absolutely frickin' hate in every season."
Calli: "Honestly, for me, season 1 is 'Radioactive.'
Jen: "I would actually take it back even further than that and have Tommy never break up with Laurel... I would just keep Oliver - I mean, Tommy and Laurel together and just like drop the whole Oliver and Laurel reunion bullsh*t, 'cause it never made any sense in the first place."
...
Calli: "How about season 2 for you?"
Jen: "No Sara."
Calli: "Listen, I like Sara, so we could have Sara, but no sexin' up Sara."
Jen: "Yeah. The sexin' up of Sara, I felt, was a swerve."
Calli: "That's where I would diverge, too."
Jen: "I was like, 'what?' 'Cause it really felt like friendship to me. Then all of a sudden they were bangin' each other in the middle of the bunker."
Calli: "That's exactly how I felt, because everything with them in 'A', like 204, 205, was strictly platonic... Then all of a sudden at the end of episode 13, bangin' down, and I was like, 'what? where did this come from?'"
Jen: "I felt like there was no lead-up... Oliver was kinda done-so on the island, too."
Calli: "Yeah, they weren't together. He was kinda with Shado... It was extremely jarring."
Jen: "It was very, very weird."
Calli: "I think I decided in the end that it was their way of giving canon Black Canary and Green Arrow."
Jen: "Yeah, 'cause they had absolutely no intention of ever going back to Laurel and Oliver."
Calli: "And they wanted to get that out of the way before they went with Felicity."
Jen: "Like, in the beginning of season 2, Oliver and Laurel actually say to each other - like, Oliver says to her, if I could go back and change everything, I would. So he's basically telling her, I would've never slept with Sara, everything would've been different."
Calli: "Which, can we point out, he took that back in season 5."
Jen: "Right."
Calli: "He's like, actually, I would. I would do it all."
Jen: "And then, 14 episodes later, he's presented with literally the same opportunity where, you know, he could choose Laurel again or don't get in between the two sisters, as they're trying to be sisters again, and he starts sleeping with Sara! Like, that to me, it's bad enough that he cheated on Laurel at the beginning, but then he did it - he started bangin' her sister again."
Calli: "It was like the only time I ever felt bad for Laurel."
Jen: "I did. That dinner was just a horror show... It was like a slow motion car wreck that you were forced to watch. ... We were on a nice, steady pace with Felicity. It was a slow burn... Then it was like, 'oh, never mind, you.'"
Calli: "Let's throw it into reverse."
Jen: "'There was no choice to make.' And then he's bangin' this chick? What the f**k? I was so mad, because it made Oliver - like, I understand what Steve was saying when he went in to the producers and they were like - he was like, okay, Oliver needs to pick a frickin' lane here, 'cause he's like slutting his way through Star City, and nobody's going to believe this guy, that he actually gives a sh*t about anybody, 'cause he keeps just jumping from bed to bed. And I was like, preachin,' my brother."
Calli: "I think that's, by and large, why Oliver didn't sleep with anybody else during season 3."
Jen: "Yes, the celibacy."
Calli: "And Steve was one of the ones who hit that the hardest during promo for it... He was like, look, if Oliver's with anybody else, it really takes away from what he feels about Felicity. It's true."
Jen: "I know they were trying to create all this confusion in season 2, so like the big suspense of who does he really love the most? Is it Laurel? Is it Sara? Is it Felicity? They wanted to make all of them, like, real candidates in some way. But it just made Oliver look flighty... when in reality, he was truly in love with Felicity. And it just kinda - to me, the back half of season 2 cheapens what they were doing in the first part of the season."
Calli: "The first part of season 2 was perfection. The back half was terrible until, like, the last four episodes."
Jen: "Then they circled back around - and then they tried throwing Laurel in there, like for a half minute, and I was like, 'what the f**k?' ... I was very upset and confused."
Calli: "And that is why I can never pick season 2 as the best season. Because it was like - I just remember how mad I was for so much of it."
...
Calli: "What about season 3?"
Jen: "Where I get frustrated with Oliver is when he came back from, you know, getting chucked off the mountain and he really didn't change anything. You know, Felicity's speech to him the alley was like, you know, I kinda thought that almost dying would make you want to live, with me... Oh, f**k you, guys, and your stupid 23 episodes. This all has to wait till the season finale."
Calli: "What I expected to happen was for him to go with Ra's after he got kicked off the mountain. I expected Ra's to grab him, I expected Ra's to Lazarus Pit him and induct him into the League right there, and play out the rest of the season from there, instead of this come back to Star City and dick around for a few episodes... It was beautiful. I enjoyed it. But it didn't make a whole lot of f**kin' sense."
Jen: "There were good moments in the back half of 3D, like the Dyla wedding. I loved their fight in 317, after she's with Ray and he finds out that Ray is the Atom. It was a fight that they needed to have. ... Character-wise, it didn't make any sense with Oliver. He was being obstinately stubborn... I know Oliver's obstinately stubborn, but it was to a ridiculous level."
Calli: "You know where I would diverge? ... I'd diverge from the first episode... I would've changed it all, like, the whole season... The date would've gone to its natural conclusion and he would've gone home with her, and they would've gotten Queen Consolidated back the next day. F**k Ray Palmer. F**k everything else. Like, that's where I would diverge. ... As much as I love season 3, I adore season 3, if I had to pick a place to diverge, it would've been the first episode."
Jen: "This whole 'I can't be with her to keep her safe' - oh, lame, that's so lame."
Calli: "It was a lot of lame."
...
Jen: "Oh, season 4 is not even difficult... There would be no lie about William. The whole thing was just a f**kin' disaster, from a plotline, writing."
Calli: "It was the beginning of a lot of Arrow's problems."
Jen: "Yeah, it really was. You know, the nice thing about Arrow, I would say, in season 1, season 2, season 3, like, even when the characters were making infuriating decisions, it was - it somehow felt, uh, rooted in where the characters were at the moment, you know, even like the crazy Oliver and Sara, you're like, well, [unintelligible words]."
Calli: "Right. You could always find reason. Like, the Oliver and Sara, you could say, listen, Oliver was trying to stay away from Felicity, so he needed - he needed some sort of outlet with somebody else, somebody who was safer, so, you know. ... Even season 3, as maddening as it was, it felt like a legitimate journey for Oliver to take. Season 4? Baby Mama Drama? I. Do. Not. Think. So."
Jen: "It was literally just them saying, oh, the show's going longer than five years. We didn't know it was gonna. So all of the character growth that we did with Oliver, we're just going to blow it up, 'cause we gotta expand it for a longer period of time. Literally that was it. And nothing Oliver did and any of those decision-making points made any sense."
Calli: "It was writing plot over character."
Jen: "And then literally everybody else found out about William and that was fine. But Felicity can't know."
Calli: "That was probably what drove me more mad than anything else."
Jen: "Oh. And then the Thea part. The Thea telling Oliver -"
Calli: "Thea telling him it was okay to lie to Felicity."
Jen: "The lie. I was like, you literally left to go live with Malcolm Merlyn because he didn't tell you the truth about who your father - like, what are - what - what in the hell is going on?! ... There was so much sh*t in season 4 that I was like, no. And I know everybody's like, oh, I hate season 5, and season 5 is their least favorite, I actually think, when I did my favorite seasons, that season 4 ended up being my least favorite."
Calli: "And it's such a shame, because season 4 had such a strong start. Oliver and Felicity together and domestic was just like a dream come true. And I know a lot of fans would probably say, they would diverge season 4 in Ivy Town and keep them in Ivy Town... I'm one of the few people who didn't actually like Ivy Town. It wasn't true to either of them... It's a mirage."
Jen: "It's a mirage... Everything looked perfect, but they're not really dealing with any of their sh*t. And that came up in 406. Everyone loves the yin-yang kiss, and I don't like it, because to me they - that fight was really getting at some really important stuff, and then they just like glaze over it at the end."
Calli: "Well, because if they had totally cemented everything, then there would've been no Baby Mama Drama."
Jen: "Exactly. So by the time 408 comes around, I mean, I was like, you know, there's definitely some kinks in the wheel here. And then when 408 happened, I was like, they're broken up."
Calli: "Same here. And it was agony to watch, because you were just waiting for the break-up."
Jen: "Right. It's even hard for me to fully enjoy 409, which is almost a perfect episode. Because there was this ridiculous lie there, it taints everything."
Calli: "The only way I can enjoy 409 is to forget 408."
Jen: "Like, I would give anything to have 409 to have happened before 408."
Calli: "Same. Same. Asking her to marry him while knowing that - "
Jen: "While he was lying. I was like, that is a level of cruelty - that's the sh*t he did to Laurel. You know what I mean? And he's supposed to be better than that now."
Calli: "And that's Felicity's whole thing. She's like, I can't do this if this is how you're gonna act."
Jen: "Like this is what you think marriage is?"
Calli: "I'm not going to enable this like some others have... Bye."
Jen: "Which is why I like season 5, because she was like, deal with your sh*t, and then get back to me."
Calli: "I think a lot of fans are mad at her because she dated Billy."
Jen: "I think there were three major problems... They put her with Billy, which, I think that was a mistake. I don't think Felicity and Oliver needed to have, uh, significant others in order to [unintelligible words]."
Calli: "I think like it was inevitable that they would, because this is TV and they can't resist."
Jen: "It's TV. It's like a writer's crutch. It's like, well, they're not sleeping together, they got to be sleeping with somebody else... That isn't how life works. People don't actually live in constant [unintelligible words]."
Calli: "Exactly. Maybe somebody is just like single for a little while. ... Again, like season 2 with Sara, I reconciled it in my mind like, Felicity had the slip-up with Oliver in the bunker, and so she's like, well, I can't let that happen again, so I'm going to get me a boyfriend, so that I have a reason not to sleep with Oliver again."
Jen: "520 made the entire Olicity arc, and everyone was like, what the f**k is going on, made complete sense to me. But they waited until 520 and I think they pushed the audience's patience way too far."
Calli: "520 should've been 509... Yeah, 505, they could've handled that if it was in 509. And it wasn't until 5-f**kin'-20... We were all, like, just about had it."
...
Calli: "So where would you diverge season 5 then?"
Jen: "I mean, 509 is pretty f**kin' bad. I mean, I remember our phone call from that night."
Calli: "I would've made Tommy Prometheus, as much as I love Adrian... Didn't we discuss this? ... I feel like we decided that Tommy was Prometheus and then we'd push Adrian Chase to the Diaz slot."
Jen: "Yeah, we did. Like, you can make him - make him the Dragon, make him whatever the f**k you want."
Calli: "You gotta have Adrian Chase because he was amazing, but Tommy should've been Prometheus."
Jen: "They should've Lazarus Pitted his ass. ... A lot of the problem with season 5 was in pacing and they made us wait so long for payoff. And don't get me wrong, I think probably from 517 to 523, that is the strongest run of episodes, uh, consecutive episodes, Arrow ever did."
Calli: "I agree with that 110 per cent."
Jen: "So I'm not saying they didn't pull it out in the end."
Calli: "But it was just like, murder, misery, misery, misery, misery, misery, misery."
(Some talk about how bad fandom was during season 5.)
Jen: "I think the big huge mistake was holding out 520 for so long. I think people need to be - I think they - people were not - they were making the audience put too much effort into trying to figure out what was going on, not even with Felicity, but with Oliver, and why he didn't fight for her."
Calli: "They were abusing our loyalty as Olicity fans."
Jen: "Right. You're like, well, they're just going to hang with us. And I'm like, no, you need to -"
Calli: "You're losing them by the truckload, guys."
Jen: "You're losing them, like, in droves here. Like, they aren't sticking around. So I would've - I would've pushed 520 up, maybe into the mid-season finale where you see, oh, they had hooked up, she had told him all of this stuff, and then you see him not doing that. Then I think that connects to Adrian Chase stuff better, because he's just - he's just avoiding. Then you know he's just avoiding all the pain. So then, when you get to the torture standpoint, like that connects up with what Felicity is [unintelligible words]."
Calli: "Here's another canon divergence for season 5. If you're gonna have Prometheus be Adrian Chase and not Tommy, make him Felicity's boyfriend and not Billy."
Jen: "Yes. Yes! He would've been fantastic... Oh my God. And she thinks she's with this, like, do-right D.A. and he's a solid guy -"
Calli: "And Oliver just taunting - er, him taunting Oliver with it."
Jen: "And Felicity doesn't believe Oliver, that he's a bad guy - or whatever it is."
Calli: "That would've been some f**kin' delicious. We could've held out for 520 easy, if we'd had that bullsh*t. But no."
Jen: "Oh yeah. If you're bringing it - like, that's a love triangle... They had Oliver with like bad chicks before. So it's like, why can't Felicity date a villain? That would've been awesome."
Calli: "It would've been so f**kin' awesome."
Jen: "And like, even having Felicity figure it out before Adrian Chase, like, reveals himself - 'cause the cool thing about Adrian Chase was, he really was ahead of everybody... So that would've been like - I don't think it would've made Felicity look stupid or anything like that."
Calli: "No. Because you could understand her heart was twisted up by her break-up with Oliver, by the whole bunker sex thing -"
Jen: "He's using her grief over that."
Calli: "Exactly. And of Havenrock, because that was still a thing."
Jen: "Right. Make a wedge between them. Instead of this weird, I'm supporting your relationship with rando cop, and, oh, I'm supporting your relationship with completely corrupt, you know, reporter. ... My frustration with Arrow is, like, if you're going to do a plotline, then do a plot line, you know what I mean? Don't give us a namby-pamby, half-ass boyfriend that we know has no chance in hell of being her endgame. So what are we doing here? ... They did that kind of sh*t with Laurel all the time. Like, if you're going to do a Black Canary storyline, f**kin' do it. Give her some screentime. Make it a real thing. Make her work for it. Show us her working for it in a real way. No, we're just going to have her take a couple boxing lessons and put a suit on her. Oh, okay. And then they're all confused. Why don't people [unintelligible words]?"
Calli: "Why don't people like this? Because it's f**kin' bullsh*t."
Jen: "I don't think people like being treated like they're stupid."
Calli: "And that's how we were treated in the later seasons of Arrow, to be honest. From Baby Mama Drama on.'
Jen: "I mean, I think there was a real shift in the writing room where things were just getting tired... By the time they got to 6, I was like, okay, some people need to go find new jobs."
...
Calli: "Okay. So we're moving on to season 6 now. Season 6 was great for Olicity, bad for bad guys, NTA -"
Jen: "I was so excited about it when Marc teased it. It sounded like, ooh, we're going to get a lot of OTA, it's going to be awesome. We didn't get that much OTA. It was a whole lot of namby-pamby newbies bitchin'."
Calli: "Where would you diverge i?"
Jen: "I would diverge it, uh, at the wedding. I wouldn't have Rene - I wouldn't do the whole team separation."
Calli: "The prison thing?"
Jen: "I don't actually mind the prison thing. Where I would diverge the prison thing - 'cause I always feel like Arrow was moving towards Oliver ending up in prison. I feel like that they put that in there, kinda like the baby foreshadowing. Like, they really sowed seeds in that, all the way back in season 1, that this dude's going to do some time at some point, which I kinda feel like, from a character standpoint, if you're going to get him to superhero Jesus, he needs to do some time for the murders he's committed."
Calli: "Okay, so if we were going to diverge it, we'd diverge it at the wedding. We would not kill off Cayden James. We would make him the main villain."
Jen: "Yep. For sure. I would back off the Black Siren bullsh*t. Dragon can get murdered in the first episode that he's in. Um, I mean, does he need to be there? I feel like, we don't really need to, uh, you know - probably, probably wouldn't have Diggle do the drug addict thing."
Calli: "That was really dumb."
Jen: "The damage they did to Curtis, Rene and Dinah was almost irre - it's irreparable."
Calli: "Well, for most of fandom, I would say, it was, because some of them can't even look at those characters any more."
Jen: "That's just sadness, because... we were spending so much of 5, like, not really loving these people. Then by the time we get to 5B, and really in 520 they hit that nice -"
Calli: "They were perfect in 520."
Jen: "It was like 5B to 6A -"
Calli: "That was their answer. This is how NTA works. They're the B team."
Jen: "Yes. And then they just chucked it."
Calli: "They're like, nope... we're going to have them be sanctimonious assholes."
Jen: "I'd still do the prison. I'd have Oliver come clean about it, way sooner."
Calli: "Come clean about what?"
Jen: "I feel like... this whole, oh, I'm going to go to prison but didn't tell Felicity."
Calli: "You mean in 6?"
Jen: "Yeah. I defended it because like Felicity's gotten on board with this is who Oliver is."
Calli: "That's the truth of it, but if we had our druthers, he wouldn't have done it."
Jen: "And I would've had the pregnancy come sooner... At the end of 6, when he's leaving to go to prison, she's like, oh, by the way, you knocked me up, asshole... I know everybody hates that, because then Oliver would've missed the pregnancy... I didn't know they were going to do the whole 20-year separation."
Calli: "But when we talk about the things we'd change in season 8, that's what we're going to change in season 8."
...
Jen: "I love [season] 7 in terms of the focus that Felicity's character got. But like, obviously now we know the character got all of that - they were puttin' all the Felicity wish list together, because they knew Emily was leaving. So that sucks. Um, I would erase the Diggle bullsh*t in season 7."
Calli: "The point of canon divergence for me would be the crossover. There would be no body swap. There would be no Crisis. There would be no Monitor. There would be none of this bullsh*t. And the show would've ended in 722 with the happy family in the happy little cabin. The end. Period. End of sentence... That's how I would've done it. I would've erased that f**kin' sh*t altogether. No. No, no, no."
Jen: "Yeah. They're just living in peace and quiet... You can make Star City this perfect eradication of crime. Like, you can just make up a reason why it happened. Oliver doesn't have to be, like, superhero Jesus to make it happen. It's a TV show. Make it up."
CallI: "Anything. Anything would've been better. Anything."
Jen: "Anything would've been better than him sacrificing his well-earned happiness for that turd in a red condom. ... I may have a Barry Allen rant at some point."
...
Calli: "That's our points of canon divergence. Season 8, don't know a bitch."
Jen: "Never happened."
Calli: "Never happened. Sorry."
Jen: "What coda? I don't see a coda here."
Calli: "Nothin' to talk about there."

ETA: Near the end of this podcast, Jen and Calli criticized KC's recent interview comments about how she got cast on Arrow. (I'm pretty sure that they're referring to this May 1, 2020 CBR article.) They discussed how KC keeps changing her story in interviews. They're correct about this. She has given inconsistent accounts. However, I wanted to point out that Jen and Calli believe that KC was cast on Arrow first (before SA), but I believe that SA was cast first. 

Edited by tv echo
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1 hour ago, tv echo said:

ETA: Near the end of this podcast, Jen and Calli criticized KC's recent interview comments about how she got cast on Arrow. (I'm pretty sure that they're referring to this May 1, 2020 CBR article.) They discussed how KC keeps changing her story in interviews. They're correct about this. She has given inconsistent accounts. However, I wanted to point out that Jen and Calli believe that KC was cast on Arrow first (before SA), but I believe that SA was cast first. 

You're partly right. Here's how I look at this situation. She wasn't officially cast before they hired SA because the lead is traditionally the first casting. However, it's very clear from her interviews that she got the part through an unconventional process - as in she read the script before anyone else, called her agent, used her CW relationship, and had it in the bag before she even read in front of Berlanti & Co. 

Capture d’écran 2020-05-18 à 18.34.33.png

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48 minutes ago, RS3 said:

You're partly right. Here's how I look at this situation. She wasn't officially cast before they hired SA because the lead is traditionally the first casting. However, it's very clear from her interviews that she got the part through an unconventional process - as in she read the script before anyone else, called her agent, used her CW relationship, and had it in the bag before she even read in front of Berlanti & Co. 

That's not really unconventional, though. It probably more like CW/WB knew they were developing this show and had her in mind for the part.

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She has definitely told different versions of that. In some she puts a lot more emphasis on the fact that she had an audition, which was almost certainly more of a formality because she was next on the list to be the CW leading lady after the other recent shows and MP didn't work out for her. The fact that they didn't have a screen test would point to the fact that she was a network hire. Which isn't unusual - Jen talks about how there always seems to be the actor the network wants and the one that the producers want and they're different and in this case the network won. It just lead to them drastically changing things around whilst the show was on the air and basically mandating a compulsory chem test for even recurring characters across the Arrowverse, even between GG and EBR even though she wasn't going to be his permanent love interest. 

They're also discussing the fact that she basically made it sound like she was all about SA "that when I saw they had cast him this is was the only show I wanted to do and my agent was really mad" because it doesn't line up with plenty of other stuff she's said as @RS3 quoted and she's maybe kissing ass for some reason or possibly playing up to the Lauriver fanbase. Or just thinks it's a good story for this particular interview. 

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I don't know what to believe anymore. I skimmed through my notes and there's also this interview comment from 2012, which supports the spec that KC was a network pick...

'Arrow's' Katie Cassidy May Be On Target to Become a Superhero Herself
Scott Huver   Nov. 27, 2012
https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/entertainment/television/Arrows-Katie-Cassidy-May-Be-On-Target-to-Become-a-Superhero-Herself-180932171.html

Quote

Had you stayed in regular talks with The CW since your last show with them?
I have stayed very close with them. The CW has been wonderful to me, and I sat down and met with them about a year ago – and I wanted to be back on their network. We sat down and talked and they said, 'What kind of show are you looking to do?' I said that it would be really cool to do something action-packed, a kick-ass-type role. Sure enough this came along, and I read it and it was a great group of people: Marc Guggenheim, Greg Berlanti and Andrew Kreisberg – they were certainly the people that I wanted to be in business with. It was a wonderful script and a wonderful character, so it all just fell into place.

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5 hours ago, Trini said:

That's not really unconventional, though. It probably more like CW/WB knew they were developing this show and had her in mind for the part.

This is the exact interview I had in mind when I made my comment, thank you @tvecho

34 minutes ago, tv echo said:

The CW has been wonderful to me, and I sat down and met with them about a year ago – and I wanted to be back on their network. We sat down and talked and they said, 'What kind of show are you looking to do?' I said that it would be really cool to do something action-packed, a kick-ass-type role.

She didn't get the role because she read for the part. She made a request for an action show and they gave her the arrow script. It isn't necessarily nepotism if contracts were involved but it doesn't scream merit either. On brand for the CW, that part is true. 

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David Rapaport is supposed to do one or two instagram chats today (with SA and/or DP), so maybe we'll get more b-t-s info. I'll post the details in the Social Media thread.

However, I have to say, whenever I watch another self-congratulatory interview with Rapaport from now on, I'm always going to be thinking two things: one, the failure to have KC do a chem read with SA; and two, CL being told that she wasn't "CW."

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6 minutes ago, tv echo said:

However, I have to say, whenever I watch another self-congratulatory interview with Rapaport from now on, I'm always going to be thinking two things: one, the failure to have KC do a chem read with SA; and two, CL being told that she wasn't "CW."

Would each of those be Rapaport's fault though? If the network possibly already wanted to hire KC, can he insist on a chemistry read with SA? And do we know if it was him who told her she wasn't "CW"? (She said "they" told her that and SA said "we" had to fight for her, so it sounds like it could have been network people who didn't want her, since we already know they weren't above screwing her over with insisting she go to SDCC after filming her death scene). Not saying they aren't his fault, but do we know that it was him specifically? 

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25 minutes ago, tv echo said:

However, I have to say, whenever I watch another self-congratulatory interview with Rapaport from now on, I'm always going to be thinking two things: one, the failure to have KC do a chem read with SA; and two, CL being told that she wasn't "CW."

Well if KC was offered a selection of scripts and told to choose one by the network or met with execs and asked for an action role or whatever, then she would have by-passed Rappaport's casting process and the producers' as well. I've seen him talk about her in the context of GG but not how she was cast in Arrow. 

CL's statements kind of seem more like an exec thing again "she's not a rake thin model like every other female on our network!" More likely she came though his casting process to even get in front of the producers and execs and be told she wasn't "CW". But it could have been him I guess. I so think he loves the "Man who built the CW" moniker interviews give him but I'm not sure he's to blame for this specifically. 

I'm not sure if he originally cast EBR or if it was done via local Canadian casting, that would be interesting to find out. 

 

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No, I don't know for sure that Rapaport is responsible for both of those things. But I wasn't saying that he specifically was, if you read my comment carefully. 

I was just thinking that he seems to have no problem accepting credit and praise for the successful Arrowverse castings, like SA, GG and MB (even though he didn't have the final say in those castings), so he should also accept at least part of the blame for the Arrowverse failures. He could've asked for a KC chem read, even if he was refused, or he could've fought for CL.

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True, but who's eager to admit their failures? Especially whilst the Arrowverse is still on air and employing these actors.

I have yet to hear/see MG or Berlanti et al actually openly admit casting KC as Laurel was a mistake or any other actor for that matter, even if you can read certainly between the lines of "went in a different direction" "we like BS better than Laurel" etc and they occasionally admit a storyline "didn't work out the way we wanted it to but the idea was awesome!"

 

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FYI, here's the 2015 BuzzFeed article where Rapaport talks about casting KC, SA, EBR, DR, WH, CL, GG, CP, CV, CR and FD (and seems to take a lot of credit for the castings)...

Behind The Scenes Casting Secrets From "Gossip Girl," "Arrow," And More
Jarett Wieselman   Oct. 6, 2015
https://www.buzzfeed.com/jarettwieselman/the-man-who-helped-build-the-cw/ 

And here's the 2019 EW article where he talks about casting SA, GG,  MB and NM... 

Casting director David Rapaport takes us behind the scenes of 'Gossip Girl,' 'Arrow,' 'Riverdale,' and more
By Samantha Highfill  April 18, 2019 
https://ew.com/tv/2019/04/18/casting-gossip-girl-arrow-riverdale-david-rapaport/ 

There are a lot of other interviews over the years where he talks about how "he" cast various Arrowverse characters. Of course he's not going to admit his mistakes. But all I said was that I was going to be thinking about those things whenever he does another interview in which he takes credit for the Arrowverse castings.

Also, Rapaport confirmed at comic cons that there was no chem test between KC and SA because they were cast separately...

David Rapaport Q&A panel at the Heroes & Villains FanFest-New York (Jan. 24, 2016):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xF8PieiBtMk
-- In response to a fan saying that TV couples normally do chemistry tests and asking if he did a chemistry test with Stephen Amell and Katie Cassidy, he replied: "I'm trying to remember - I don't know that we did, actually... (Fan interrupted: "You don't recall?") ... I don't recall that we did, no. I think they were cast separately so I'm pretty sure, yeah. Yeah, thank you."

Fan report about conversation with David Rapaport, Casting Director, at Heroes & Villains FanFest-New York (Jan. 24, 2016):
https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/2872-social-media-and-behind-the-scenes-aka-everything-else-not-news-and-media/?do=findComment&comment=1896734

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Fan said she had a conversation about SA and KC's chemistry. He acknowledged their[sic] was a problem and said that they fixed it by having them be friends instead. 

Fan posted a short clip of her asked Rapport at the panel if they had a chemistry test. He said no. 
She posted the video saying that he is confirming there was no chemistry test and she referenced their earlier conversation. 
He responded that he said there was no chemistry test (which was on the video…..). SA and KC have amazing chemistry. 
Fans blow it up and he started liking tweets about his words being twisted and fans lying. 
I think he misunderstood her tweet as her saying that he said there was no chemistry at all, when all she was saying is that there wasn't a chemistry test. Her earlier tweets said that he agreed they lacked romantic chemistry, but work as friends. I saw a few people say they heard that conversation and back her up.

 

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7 minutes ago, tv echo said:

No, I don't know for sure that Rapaport is responsible for both of those things. But I wasn't saying that he specifically was, if you read my comment carefully. 

I was just thinking that he seems to have no problem accepting credit and praise for the successful Arrowverse castings, like SA, GG and MB (even though he didn't have the final say in those castings), so he should also accept at least part of the blame for the Arrowverse failures. He could've asked for a KC chem read, even if he was refused, or he could've fought for CL.

Sorry, I guess it was more of an association in my head with the way you phrased it.

He may not have final say on the casting, but he's the one who pushed those 3 specifically? SA and GG (and possibly MB, but I don't remember, he did at least meet her several times before casting for Supergirl) he made sure were the first people to audition, which ended up being very beneficial to them both (and he knew that). So, yeah, that credit is his. But for those complaints specifically, we don't know what involvement he had with that at all. How do we know he didn't ask for a chem read or fight for CL? Idk if anyone would come out and just talk about it, especially if it involved fighting with people he worked with

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FYI, here is why I believed that SA was cast first (but, as previously said, KC has given inconsistent accounts of her casting story)...

KC Panel at MegaCon Orlando (May 29, 2016) - In response to fan asking how she got her role in the DC Universe and whether it was by audition or choice, KC: "Yeah, um, it definitely was - it was an audition.  I read the script - I was reading pilots that year and I read Arrow and, you know, the pilot - Laurel's character, it wasn't - she wasn't very big in the pilot. But I did some research, obviously the comic books, having Greg Berlanti being our producer and creator, and Andrew Kreisberg and Marc Guggenheim, and then Stephen Amell got cast, and you know, David Nutter was directing our pilot - the whole thing, you know, the success of all of them being attached to such an incredible script, and that whole world, you know - I just where it possibly could potentially go. And, um, I really wanted to do some action and knowing that Laurel Lance turns into the Black Canary, um, you know - that was a huge, huge thing for me. And, um, yeah... I think that just playing a comic book character and being a woman - you know, a modern day woman and kicking some ass is definitely what I - what I was attracted to, um, along with everything else." 
Mod: "So you were cast before Stephen?"  
KC: "No, I was cast right after Stephen." 
Mod: "Directly right after Stephen?"  
KC: "Yes, and I did actually audition."
 She added that SA was not part of the approval process, mentioning that he had not done much before Arrow.  She also said that she followed him on twitter before SA knew that she was the producers' choice, and thought he was "really hot".  Per KC, Stephen noticed that she had followed him on twitter and he went to the producers and said, "Katie Cassidy just followed me on twitter. Is she? Are you?" and they were like, "yeah... what do you think of that?" and Stephen was like, "I like that". 

KC Panel at MCM Comic Con Hannover (May 20, 2017) - When asked about auditioning for Arrow (after fan recited the usual audition process), KC replied that's how it normally works but then added: "I had been on The CW for quite some time, uh, before that, working for them on Supernatural and Melrose Place and Gossip Girl, you know, and having done those things, I felt like, being part of The CW, I was a part of their family. So, when I read the script, um, my process was a little bit different because I had an established - I had a relationship with the creators and the producers. I knew them, they knew me quite well. So when I read the script, I immediately was, like, I'm not reading anything else, this is the one I want. That really stressed my manager and agent out, because you never really know if you end up being the - you know, being the one who's going to get it. I was just like, I don't want to read anything else. This is the one that I want to go for. So, they - I had a meeting with them and then basically, just a - like a screen test. And did it. I was extremely nervous, but did it anyhow. And ended up - yeah, I ended up finding out later that night that I was - I was the one who got the part."

Geekvibes Nation radio interview (Feb. 14, 2018) - MG: "We've been working ever since the beginning of Arrow - we've been working with a casting director, David Rapaport, and, uh, David had immediately targeted Stephen. And he basically said - he brought Stephen on Tuesday and he said, 'by Friday, this guy's gonna have a show.' ... And that particular year was Stephen's moment. And, uh, he was the very first person that they had brought in to show us, he was the first person to audition for any part on Arrow, so it was kind of like, you know, there's nowhere to go but down, quite frankly, once Stephen walked in the door, because it was so clear that the role was for him. I mean, he was perfect for it."

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I think it was along these lines: Laurel was hers if she wanted it but they wanted to officially cast Oliver first. Amell’s been consistent in his account that he knew/suspected he had the part when she followed him on Twitter so I think her CW pals told her he was cast in one breath and confirmed her being Laurel in the next. 

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Details are posted in the Social Media thread...

Katherine McNamara Joins Fellow ‘Arrow’ Cast on Creation’s Virtual Fan Experiences
TiShea Wilson   May 21, 2020
https://nerdalertnews.net/katherine-mcnamara-joins-fellow-arrow-cast-on-creations-virtual-fan-experiences/

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Creation Entertainment has added yet another name to their virtual experiences! Katherine McNamara, who plays Mia Smoak (aka Blackstar) on “Arrow” and Clary Fray on “Shadow Hunters”, has joined in on the fun Creation has been providing for the fans.
*  *  *
McNamara will host a Q&A panel Sunday, May 24 at 4:30 – 5:15 p.m. PTD on Stageit. Part of the proceeds from this panel will go to the World Health Organization’s COVID-19 Solidarity Response Fund. The “top tipper” of the show will receive a five minute one-on-one video chat with Katherine as well as a $100 Creation gift card (good for merchandise and any available autograph or photo op ticket at one CE convention, valid through 2021).

Also up for grabs for fifteen lucky fans, is a forty-five minute meet and greet with Katherine on Thursday, May 28 at 2:00 p.m. PTD. The meeting will be held via zoom and spots will be auctioned off on Creation’s auction site with a minimum bid of $50.00 (bidding starts May 21). Part of the proceeds from this event will be going to the World Health Organization’s COVID-19 Solidarity Response Fund as well.

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The Arrowverse Is No Stranger to Major Recastings
BY NANCY LIU   MAY 21, 2020
https://www.cbr.com/arrowverse-no-stranger-to-major-recastings/ 

Quote

The upcoming recast of Batwoman on The CW is not unfamiliar territory for the Arrowverse as this would mark the second time a leading lady in the franchise needed to be replaced. Those who are familiar with the history of the Arrowverse will remember that Sara Lance of Arrow was played by an entirely different actress in the series pilot before being replaced by Caity Lotz.
*  *  *
Sara Lance is now a staple character in the Arrowverse as she majorly impacted Oliver Queen's life in Starling City before becoming a key player in DC's Legends of Tomorrow. In Season 1, Episode 1 of Arrow, the character of Sara Lance -- played by Canadian actress Jacqueline MacInnes Wood -- was presumed dead and only appeared in pre-shipwreck flashbacks. At the time of its first season, Laurel Lance, Sara's sister and Oliver's ex-girlfriend/friend, was the primary female counterpart to Oliver Queen/Green Arrow. Therefore, it was likely that the showrunners had initially only planned to have Sara appear in the form of flashback sequences via a limited number of pre-filmed scenes.

However, by the time the Sara Lance character development was expanded beyond its original conception, Wood's commitments as a regular on The Bold and the Beautiful meant that it would have been near impossible to fit a recurring role on Arrow into her schedule. Lotz was subsequently brought in to fill the character just in time for Sara Lance to make appears in almost every episode of the show's second season. Since her casting in the role, Lotz's depiction of Sara Lance/Black Canary/White Canary has been met with praise from Arrowverse fans, specifically citing her acting range and natural athleticism that made her a perfect fit as the superhero.

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Arrow's David Ramsey Is Still Down for More Diggle -- Especially if Green Lantern is Involved
By RUSS BURLINGAME - May 22, 2020
https://comicbook.com/tv-shows/news/david-ramsey-arrow-creation-entertainment-virtual-convention/

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After nearly a decade playing the role of John Diggle on Arrow and the other Arrowverse shows for The CW, actor David Ramsey told ComicBook.com that he would love to keep working on the character for as long as the writing is strong and the stories are interesting to him. That's especially true, Ramsey seemed to suggest, if that Green Lantern ring we saw in the series finale turns out to be something they can actually utilize in-story. The actor, who is appearing alongside fellow Arrow veterans Paul Blackthorne, Juliana Harkavy, Katherine McNamara, and Michael Rowe at Creation Entertainment's Virtual Fan Experience over the weekend, will no doubt face plenty of Green Lantern questions during tomorrow's Q&A.

The event, which takes place tomorrow afternoon at 6 p.m. ET/3 p.m. PT, costs $5, and takes place shortly after Harkavy's. In both cases, their characters had stories that didn't quite end at the end of Arrow.

"The way John Diggle ended there's another beginning for him," Ramsey told ComicBook.com. "So I think for a character like this, and for the type of people that are writing around it, I think it can remain fresh for a long time."
*  *  *
"There's talk about me coming back," Ramsey admitted. "I mean, it may or may not be so quiet, but you know something else, the idea that you might not be working or things will be a lot different when work does come has made me kind of appreciate the idea of working in general....I'm kind of looking forward to getting to work and if that kind of involves the Arrowverse, I'm happy for it."

Ramsey's one-on-one slots are sold out, but you can get in on his Q&A panel tomorrow by checking out the information at the Creation Entertainment website. Expect plenty of questions about HBO Max's Green Lantern series which, as far as anybody knows, is not part of the Arrowverse -- but it is produced by Greg Berlanti, who oversaw Arrow -- and who helped negotiate with DC and Warner Bros. to make sure that Green Lantern ring in the finale made it in.

Arrow's Juliana Harkavy on Creation Entertainment's Virtual Fan Experience And Connecting With Fans During the Pandemic
By RUSS BURLINGAME - May 22, 2020
https://comicbook.com/tv-shows/news/juliana-harkavy-arrow-creation-entertainment-virtual-convention/

Quote

Juliana Harkavy is taking the virtual stage tomorrow for a Q&A at 12:30 p.m. Pacific Time -- and it's something that intrigues her. The ability to connect with more fans, who can't necessarily afford all the travel of conventional comic book conventions, is something she thinks will have an enduring appeal even after the pandemic is over (even if she admits that she misses hugging and taking pictures with people). It's the relationship with fans, Harkavy told ComicBook.com in an interview to support the Virtual Fan Experience, that helps drive her when she's not able to do the work she loves.

"One of the coolest parts about being an actor is that you create a little piece of history, a little moment in time, that is essentially there forever," Harkavy said. "You know, potentially could somebody in 20, 30 years could start watching Arrow from the beginning and it will be like it was in that moment. I love that aspect of film and television. And I love even more so that with a show like Arrow, where it is about superheroe,s and it's tackling real life issues, that it actually has changed people's lives. It's not necessarily like, 'Oh, that was a really cool movie' or '...a really cool show.' It's like, 'This touched me, this changed me.' And I hear that a lot from fans, and it means everything. I think this is why we do what we do. We tell stories that really touch people, and that will be there forever. And I'm really proud of that."

Harkavy's one-on-one slots are sold out, but you can get in on her Q&A panel tomorrow by checking out the information at the Creation Entertainment website. Expect plenty of questions about the status of Green Arrow and the Canaries, the planned spinoff that, if it goes to series, will star Harkavy alongside Katherine McNamara and Katie Cassidy.

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Arrow's Michael Rowe Has "Unfinished Business" With Deadshot
By RUSS BURLINGAME - May 23, 2020
https://comicbook.com/tv-shows/news/arrow-michael-rowe-creation-entertainment-virtual-con/

Quote

Michael Rowe, who played one of Oliver Queen's first and most popular foes on Arrow, has "unfinished business" with Deadshot in the Arrowverse. A planned Suicide Squad spinoff for Rowe, David Ramsey, and other Arrowverse regulars never moved forward, and ultimately before they got to finish up the plans producers had for Floyd Lawton, the character had to go in order to accommodate David Ayer's Suicide Squad movie. Now, with Arrow over and Will Smith no longer playing the role of Deadshot (the character will not be recast in the movie, but replaced by a new character played by Idris Elba), you might wonder what that means for the Arrowverse.

Nevertheless, Rowe said he has not spent a lot of time thinking about whether Will Smith leaving The Suicide Squad might be a good sign for the Arrowverse's Deadshot. You can't, he explained, becuase it's always more complicated than it seems at first glance.

"I think you'd drive yourself crazy if you always try to connect those dots and hang on to those hopes that something might happen because this would cause a chain reaction," Rowe told ComicBook.com in advance of his appearance tomorrow at Creation Entertainment's Virtual Fan Experience. "There's just no way of knowing the conversations that happen behind the scenes with these ginormous production companies, and people making all those decisions in those offices."
*  *  *
"It certainly popped into my mind when I saw that they were going to do Suicide Squad, I was like, 'uh-oh, I'm definitely in trouble.' Then I got the call. Yep, definitely. Okay. That happened as planned. Then I saw the movie and it was what it was. It didn't get great reviews. I'm sure they had like a massive budget and I'm sure they had to go to great lengths to get those big name stars to sign on again. So I was just in limbo again. I think I even might've popped up somewhere as like a flashback. It was with David Ramsey in season five or something like that. And the way it was put to me is, 'we just had to ask for permission and they gave us the green light on putting you in one episode, but we couldn't show that maybe you might have survived the explosion.' So it was just like a few minutes of Diggle's imagination while he was in prison. But anything is possible in these shows. You can always come back."
*  *  *
"The fact that Will Smith doesn't seem to be doing anymore, it might be a greater chance of coming back, but honestly, I have no idea," Rowe admitted. "I haven't been in those conversations, so I don't really know what goes on. If they wanted to do it and I was free, I'd love to do it. I love playing that character. And I know we had fancy plans for him, but we never got to them, so it feels like unfinished business. I'm sure the producers would tell you the same thing. Art and business is a tricky relationship, so I try not to think about it too much. If I got the call, I'd give it my all and I'd be there, and yeah, I'd love to strap on the eye patch again."

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Arrow's Black Canary Hasn't Seen the Birds of Prey Movie
By NICOLE DRUM - May 23, 2020
https://comicbook.com/tv-shows/news/arrow-black-canary-juliana-harkavy-birds-of-prey-movie/

Quote

Speaking with ComicBook.com, Harkavy revealed that she hasn't seen Birds of Prey, but that she is really excited to see it, especially with music being such an important part of Black Canary as a character.

"I did not watch the Birds of Prey movie," Harkavy said. "I've seen many clips online, and I looked up Jurnee and I looked up, you know, her music. And I actually am really excited to see the film. But I was more, the reason I'd always wanted to do the music was because it was a part of the comic book character."

"So, I think it's cool that it was a part of the movie," she continued. "And now it's going to be part of the new show. I think it's an integral part of the Black Canary. And it's also like the quite literal thing because just so you know, she's a canary who sings. So, I think that's pretty cool."

This isn't the first time Harkavy has expressed the importance of exploring Dinah's musical side. She previously told us that Dinah's life as a musician was something she specifically wanted to explore.

"I was really lucky that I got to do what I wanted with Dinah in the pilot episode -- the music," she said. "I know that in the comics, Dinah, the Black Canary had a band, and she was a musician, and I loved that element of Dinah, and so yeah, I guess my wish has come true."

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Arrow: Why Tommy Merlyn Was Killed Off After Just One Season
BY HANNAH SHAW-WILLIAMS  MAY 24, 2020
https://screenrant.com/arrow-season-1-tommy-merlyn-death-killed-reason/

Quote

Tommy was a well-liked character who seemed set to be a long-term fixture in Arrow's storylines, so his death came as a major shock to fans. That was actually the point of it. Speaking to Syfy in 2013, producer Marc Guggenheim explained that the writers had wanted a big death at the end of Arrow season 1, and settled on Tommy as the loss that would be the most devastating for Oliver and the other characters:

"It really had to do with the fact that we wanted Oliver to suffer a loss at the end of the season. When we thought about the characters that he could lose who would have the biggest impact not just on Oliver, but on the show, Tommy was the name that rose to the top very quickly. Tommy's death impacts pretty much every member of our cast. Obviously his death impacts Oliver and Laurel, but there's a closeness between Thea and Tommy that we've established on the show, Lance, obviously because of the connection that Laurel has with Tommy, and Moira because of her responsibility with Tommy. He's the one character whose death would have the biggest impact."
*  *  *
Reflecting on Tommy's death in an interview with The AU Review in 2017, Donnell remarked that in hindsight it was actually the best thing that ever happened to him. After exiting Arrow, he returned to New York and started dating actress Patti Murin, who would later become his wife. At the time, though, even he didn't see Tommy's death coming:

"[The writers] had this idea that they wanted to really do something major at the end of the first season and the best way to accomplish that and the character that would have the most impact across the board, would be to give Tommy the axe! So, I mean, it took me by surprise certainly, but the way they gave him such an exit is pretty cool for me, especially now, almost 5 going on 6 years later people are still remembering it."

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The real reason these actors left popular superhero shows
BY MICHILEEN MARTIN/MAY 26, 2020 2:27 PM EDT
https://www.looper.com/212410/the-real-reason-these-actors-left-popular-superhero-shows/ 

Amell needed more time to be a husband and a father
Routh and Ford didn't have much say in the matter
Landes looked too much like his co-stars
The long hours were too much for Ruby Rose
Felicity felt her time was over
Seth Green wanted a shot at the big screen
Arthur Darvill wanted to return to Broadchurch
Palicki and Blood thought they'd found a new home
Brooks is busy with other projects
Rosenbaum wanted to do something new
Colton Haynes needed to put his health first
Vondie Curtis-Hall left because no one was safe
Lonsdale needed to walk a different path
Newmar headed west

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Ugh - MG took a dig at Arrow in this week's LoT episode...

Marc Guggenheim breaks down his emotional Legends of Tomorrow directorial debut
By Chancellor Agard May 26, 2020
https://ew.com/tv/legends-of-tomorrow-marc-guggenheim-zari-musical/ 

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ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: Some of my favorite parts of the episode were all the meta Easter eggs about TV shows with the scriptwriting algorithm, show swag, and canceling shows. How much fun did you have going through your repertoire and adding all of those in?
MARC GUGGENHEIM: You know what’s funny? A lot of them were already in the script. I think the only two audibles I called in terms of adding in Easter eggs were the joke that’s at Arrow’s expense when Nate describes the Hood show and Zari says it’s dumb. That was my ad-lib. And when [Dominic Purcell] was being Dhon, as in Khan, I asked him to quote a line from Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan directly because I love Wrath of Khan. Poor Dom had never seen Khan before, so in the episode, you are seeing his imitation of my imitation of Ricardo Montalban. I have to say that was a really fun day on set. Dom was so hysterical and threw himself into that role with such abandon that we were literally sitting at the monitors trying not to laugh and ruin the take.

I was going to ask you about the Arrow digs because I had a feeling that was either done for you or done by you, and I loved that moment.
If you can’t laugh at yourself, then you’re not really trying.

Edited by tv echo

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Watchover with Jen and Calli - Watchover Ep 77 - Interlude
May 27, 2020
https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/watchover-with-jen-and-calli/e/69947369
https://anchor.fm/watchovercast/episodes/Watchover-Ep-77---Interlude-eejt5c

We come together today to gripe about some things and celebrate others. We vent about salty DCTV fandoms (you know who you are) and the modern ratings system and what about Batwoman? All very curious....

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ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: Some of my favorite parts of the episode were all the meta Easter eggs about TV shows with the scriptwriting algorithm, show swag, and canceling shows. How much fun did you have going through your repertoire and adding all of those in?
MARC GUGGENHEIM:
 You know what’s funny? A lot of them were already in the script. I think the only two audibles I called in terms of adding in Easter eggs were the joke that’s at Arrow’s expense when Nate describes the Hood show and Zari says it’s dumb. That was my ad-lib. And when [Dominic Purcell] was being Dhon, as in Khan, I asked him to quote a line from Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan directly because I love Wrath of Khan. Poor Dom had never seen Khan before, so in the episode, you are seeing his imitation of my imitation of Ricardo Montalban. I have to say that was a really fun day on set. Dom was so hysterical and threw himself into that role with such abandon that we were literally sitting at the monitors trying not to laugh and ruin the take.

I was going to ask you about the Arrow digs because I had a feeling that was either done for you or done by you, and I loved that moment.
If you can’t laugh at yourself, then you’re not really trying.

I get his sentiment, I really do, but wouldn't there be a difference from another character on a completely different show to make fun of another show? Like Flash had Ralph ask why couldn't Eddie get a vasectomy instead of kill himself, would it be ok if Kara made a joke like that instead on Supergirl (following a hypothetical logic of "oh it would just be AK making fun of himself" if AK was still working on the shows)? 

Idk, it didn't super bother me in the scene, but I did think the joke was kind of dumb.

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Just like in the first book in this AU Arrowverse crossover trilogy, Team Arrow also appears in the second book, The Flash: Supergirl's Sacrifice (released May 26) - here's the only review that I've found so far...

Book Review: “Supergirl’s Sacrifice” (“Crossover Crisis” #2) by Barry Lyga
May 28, 2020
https://blog.mugglenet.com/2020/05/book-review-supergirls-sacrifice-crossover-crisis-2-by-barry-lyga/ 

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Supergirl’s Sacrifice is the second part of this Crossover Crisis trilogy, picking right up where Green Arrow’s Perfect Shot left off. In the first book, the Flash and Team Arrow successfully closed the dimensional rift looming over Central City, but with disastrous, unintended consequences. In Supergirl’s Sacrifice, Team Flash, Team Arrow, and Team Supergirl are forced to deal with the fallout. Curtis and Cisco are lost in time. Thousands of Earth-27 speedster refugees are stranded on Earth-1. Owlman is hiding disguised among the citizens of Central City, patiently planning his attack. Ambush Bug is on the loose and wreaking havoc in Star City. As if our superheroes don’t already have enough issues to tackle, Anti-Matter Man has arrived on Earth-38 to destroy it. Although appreciating this book fully would require some knowledge of the four shows that comprise the CW’s Arrowverse, the villains are all original adaptations, so readers would not be missing out on much if they are not well acquainted with it.

Balancing four separate storylines is no mean feat. Lyga masterfully switches between the four completely different settings, allowing readers to dig into and be fully invested in each conflict. Not only that, but he also does an incredible job building tension by setting up four seemingly insurmountable problems that leave readers constantly wondering if the superheroes’ missions will succeed. Although it is heavily foreshadowed throughout the book, the final plot twist still packed an emotional punch because of how much I had come to root for the characters.

Additionally, I found the use of original DC villains to be quite an innovative idea, instead of reusing characters from the Arrowverse. It kept the book refreshing and suspenseful since these are characters that I’m not familiar with, and I couldn’t wait to find out more about them and their abilities. In particular, Madame Xanadu was an intriguing character due to her ability to use real magic rather than metahuman powers.
*  *  *
That being said, what threw me off was the way certain characters were portrayed, which I felt was sometimes inconsistent with the television series. For instance, I expected Felicity to be less romantic and Oliver Queen to have a slightly more authoritative and commanding persona. However, I admit that other readers might disagree with me since everyone has different interpretations of these characters.

Additionally, as much as I appreciated the amount of detail put into character development, I also felt that at times it detracted from the action and made the pacing a little draggy. I would have preferred the book to be more action-packed.

ETA: In case you missed the first book in this trilogy, The Flash: Green Arrow's Perfect Shot, here's links to two excerpts and three reviews of that book:
https://ew.com/books/2019/04/04/crossover-crisis-flash-green-arrow-preview/
https://twitter.com/ArrowEnquirer/status/1166868306843906048
https://www.comicmix.com/2019/09/03/review-flash-crossover-crisis-green-arrows-perfect-shot/
https://thegeekiary.com/crossover-crisis-book-review/68713
https://www.thenerddaily.com/review-green-arrows-perfect-shot-barry-lyga/

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#ThrowBackTuesday: This 2014 interview is new to me - another Arrow star who was surprised with a forced exit from the show...

'Arrow's' Susanna Thompson on Her Character's Exit: 'She Had More to Do'
APRIL 24, 2014  by Philiana Ng
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/arrow-susanna-thompson-moiras-death-698517

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In a chat with THR, the veteran actress opens up about Moira's shortened arc, the other Oliver-related bombshells and if she felt her character had more places to go.

When were you first informed that Moira would die?
At the end of January, actually. The writers have a wonderful trajectory of where they think they’re heading, and as Marc Guggenheim said to me, “We don’t take these types of storylines lightly.” They come in with the possibility and then they sit with it and sit with it and make sure it’s the right path. And I know it was hard for both of them [Guggenheim and Andrew Kreisberg]. It was Andrew who had the unfortunate job of chatting with me and telling me what was going to happen in the story. We all know that any one of us could be in the situation as characters on a TV show based on a comic book, but that doesn’t stop the initial impact of it.

What was that conversation with Andrew like?
I was told I needed to chat with him about another episode and then the information came out. They had to get me in the room, basically. I think everyone was awkward about not knowing how to do that because they care for me and I do believe that they did not want to say goodbye to me but this was the best trajectory for Oliver’s character. Andrew said, “This is hard to say...” and as he said that, I said at the same time he did – “You’re going to kill Moira.” Then it landed in the room and the two of us talked it through. I asked why. It wasn’t an emotional meeting -- it wasn't in terms of tears – but it was emotionally being felt inside of me and in Andrew. Then you go away and you start processing it. There were a couple of days where it stung, but they gave me a beautiful episode to dig into and work hard with Willa and Stephen and little bits of Paul Blackthorne and say my goodbyes.

Do you think Moira’s arc ended at the right time or did she have more to do?
To be honest, I do feel like she had more to do. But this TV show is called Arrow and I think the writers – I’m not sure – didn’t want too many satellite stories right now and that was discussed with me. To give Moira her full weight, you would really have to give her these satellite stories. You’d have to give her a world. She’s too big of a character not to give her a world to live in besides being Oliver’s mother and worrying about him. You can’t keep playing the same in those stories. I think that they went down certain paths – I don’t know if maybe they were not satisfied with the path of mayor. The Moira that I met in the pilot, in my heart as an actor, lived in a much bigger world and we got to see a good majority of that, but I know there was more to explore personally. But they have more of a story to tell elsewhere and that’s probably why.

Was her death the way you pictured it?
It's a beautiful Shakespearean moment. Here's what I was most happy about and the most satisfied about: [The producers] had talked to me at the start of the series that her motivation is her love for her children, so to go out standing in front of that sword so that her children could be saved, yes, that satisfied me because at least it completed that particular part of that story. It showed her true strength.

I imagine the last day of filming was tough...
That last scene was filmed on the second day. My last day of filming was tough for other reasons because that's saying goodbye to the community. I was surprised we were filming the death scene so early but I have to tell you the truth, when we finally finished it and we were satisfied with it, it was a relief that that was over and we could get to the rest of the episode. No one wanted it to happen.
*  *  *
Another Moira-Oliver reveal came in the form of a pregnancy, with Moira using money as incentive to have the girl disappear and worse of all, lie about losing the baby. Was that moment surprising to you when you first read it?
It wasn't surprising. The producers like to create these unexpected Easter eggs. You find these eggs in different areas, hidden away, and a lot of them are in Central City, it feels like. (Laughs.) As Marc talked to me about the episode, what he liked about that particular bit of it was it allowed the audience to see how her brain works. She is still protecting her son and a grandchild. Yes, she is asking the young woman to go away and yes, she is paying her off. But the way I wanted to play it, I did truly want Moira to feel sincere about helping that child out.

How do you think Moira would have handled the repercussions of Oliver's secret child had she stayed alive?
It would have been interesting, in creating my own backstory for her and my possibilities of the future had she lived, was that she had probably at different times reached out to this child or at least kept an eye on them.

What are your thoughts on Moira knowing about her son's Arrow life for at least a season?
Stephen and I have often played and felt that Moira knows. I don't know that Stephen played or built it into Oliver that he knew that Moira knew. (Laughs.) But Stephen and I have talked about that Moira has always believed that somewhere in the middle -- I thought it was a little bit earlier [than the Undertaking]. I harken back to the pilot. There's a piece of Moira that I feel knows much more than the audience realizes she knows and much more than Oliver realizes. Moira and Oliver live a very parallel life in the first two seasons.
*  *  *
What will you miss most?
I had a certain role as a senior actor on the show and you set an example for people and you welcome people into your home and you rally people to work hard and go forward and you challenge people – writers, producers, crewmembers, other actors – to do the best work they can. Saying goodbye to all of that was the hardest part.

Edited by tv echo
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Five Events You Shouldn’t Miss at ATX TV ... From the Couch!
BY SELOME HAILU, FRI., JUNE 5, 2020
https://www.austinchronicle.com/screens/2020-06-05/five-events-you-shouldnt-miss-at-atx-tv-from-the-couch/

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Inside the Writers Zoom Room
Your favorite TV shows are still moving forward, lockdown and all. IndieWire critic Ben Travers will "sit down with" showrunners and writers Dan Goor (Brooklyn Nine-Nine, Parks and Recreation), Beth Schwartz (Sweet Tooth, Arrow), Melinda Hsu Taylor (Nancy Drew), and Sera Gamble (You) to talk about what work-from-home looks like for creatives trying to churn out good television in the middle of a pandemic. Saturday, June 6, 5:30pm
*  *  *
ATX TV ... From the Couch! runs June 5-7, and all panels stream for free. Register at www.atxfestival.com.

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With regard to the three Arrow characters on this list, I don't agree with the inclusion of Adrian Chase (also, this writer is a lot harsher than I would've been)...

Top 10 characters the Arrowverse completely botched
by Joseph Heindl  June 6, 2020
https://hiddenremote.com/2020/06/06/characters-arrowverse-completely-botched/

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To be clear, these characters aren’t bad because they’re not faithful to their comic counterparts. No, these people suck because they simply don’t work within the context of their own tale. They fail to muster up any entertainment or interest from the audience; they stumble in what they’re meant to do, either thematically or narratively; and they annoy you to the point of dragging down the whole show. These are more cardinal sins than simply cutting a costume or omitting part of a backstory.

https://hiddenremote.com/2020/06/06/characters-arrowverse-completely-botched/3/

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9. Laurel Lance/Black Canary

This Arrow leading lady does not get the same slack as Iris. Unlike her, Laurel is thoroughly detestable from the beginning, and that carries all throughout the Arrowverse. Though initially justified in her hatred of Oliver Queen, she soon loses our sympathy as he bears the weight of his family’s sins and works to atone for them. At a point, her attitude devolves into petty spite.

Laurel is not only selfish but self-righteous. She’s so personally offended when people don’t meet her impossible standard that she allows it to affect her own wellbeing, and she has no problem making it your problem.

We see this when she becomes an alcoholic, making life difficult for everyone who inexplicably cares about her. During this period, her sister Sara returns after supposedly being dead for years, and Laurel’s first response is to angrily shun her. Even with Mom and Dad overjoyed to see their daughter again, she lambastes Sara (and Oliver) for somehow ruining all their lives.

With this God complex, it goes without saying that Laurel thinks she’s always right. When her sister actually dies, she keeps it a secret from Daddy for months. After all, she doesn’t think he can handle it so that obviously gives her the right to decide what he can and can’t know about his own daughter. It also gives her the right to exhume Sara’s rotting carcass and resurrect her as a raving lunatic through the mystical Lazarus Pit.

Whenever the other characters call her on such poor decisions, she denies any wrongdoing. Laurel maintains that she knows best and that the naysayers simply don’t see things clearly. This is why she never seems to learn from any of her mistakes, resulting in an obnoxiously stupid drag too set in her ways to even think about improving. Plus, it’s all made far more excruciating thanks to Katie Cassidy’s pouty performance. Sounds like a great foundation for a superhero!

Yeah, much like a petulant child trying on her parents’ business suit, Laurel takes some boxing lessons and clumsily follows in her sister’s footsteps as the Black Canary. Way to lessen the significance of every other costumed crimefighter on the show! I shouldn’t have to tell you that Cassidy isn’t the least bit convincing in any of the action scenes.

More than that, though, her character never strikes you as someone truly devoted to the cause. As evidenced by both the script and Cassidy’s immature acting, Laurel isn’t doing this because she wants to save the city, protect innocent people, or atone for past mistakes. Rather, she dons a mask and beats people up as an escape, a way to let out her own frustration. In essence, she’s a charlatan. Suffice it to say, I was elated when she was killed by Damien Darhk, but the writers quickly backpedaled and replaced her with a doppelganger from a parallel universe. Life sucks.

https://hiddenremote.com/2020/06/06/characters-arrowverse-completely-botched/5/

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7. Adrian Chase/Prometheus

I seem to be in the minority on this one. He started out well enough, emerging as Oliver Queen’s lawyer with more going on beneath the surface than meets the eye. Unfortunately, once he’s revealed as the season’s big bad, he turns into the poor man’s Professor Moriarty, specifically Andrew Scott’s Moriarty from Sherlock.

However, instead of striking a fine balance between dark comedy and suspense, this ridiculous turn is played completely straight, and Josh Segarra doesn’t pull it off nearly as well. His crooked smile and overtly sleezy delivery of every line is plain hammy, doing little to convey any depth or threat.

Season 5 aims to go back to gritty basics, deconstructing the ethics of the Green Arrow and the toll it takes on Oliver and his loved ones. As such, we’re supposed to believe that Chase can challenge our hero, both physically and psychologically. Well, he’s a pencil-neck, so it’s hard to believe that he could take down Stephen Amell under any circumstances. When it comes to the psychological aspect, it basically amounts to repeating the same phrases and surface-level observations over and over again in an effort to sound deep. This makes him little more than a self-righteous wimp.

Much of the disconnect comes from the fact that we don’t actually see the Green Arrow kill Adrian’s father. His whole scheme stems from his need for revenge, but we have no idea who his dad was or what relationship they had. It’s a contrived attempt to retroactively tie his story in with Oliver’s, but it doesn’t resonate at all.

Making this villain look even worse are the flashbacks this season, which deal with Oliver’s exploits in Russia and his attempts to bring down a crime lord played by Dolph Lundgren. Sure there’s not much to him, but he’s much more imposing than little Adrian.

These flashbacks also reveal that one of Oliver’s teachers was Talia al Ghul, daughter of international assassin leader Ra’s al Ghul. In retaliation for Oliver killing her father in Season 3, she trains Adrian to be the Green Arrow’s downfall. In short, she should have been the main villain.
*  *  *
Think about it. She has a personal connection with Oliver, which we actually see unfold. Given her skillset, it makes sense that she was a member of the League of Assassins. This alone would make her a physical match for Oliver since she would have presumably trained her entire life in the ways of stealth, misdirection, and lethality.

Most importantly, though, it would have been easier to identify with her motive because we’ve seen the Green Arrow kill her father. He earned Ra’s al Ghul’s trust, seemingly embraced his sacred ways, and struck him down. That type of betrayal, especially given the irony that Talia trained Oliver, could have easily laid the foundation for a compelling antagonist, and Lexa Doig demonstrates the charisma and intensity to pull it off.When compared to what we could have gotten, a villain as forced and lackluster as Prometheus is pathetic.

https://hiddenremote.com/2020/06/06/characters-arrowverse-completely-botched/6/

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6. Ricardo Diaz/The Dragon

The word that immediately comes to mind for this guy is “punk.” Starting as part of a larger supervillain gang in Arrow, Diaz soon kills the leader and takes over as the season’s overarching antagonist. That’s exactly what he feels like: a nameless thug or henchman who somehow gets into a position of power. He has all these connections and maneuvers because the plot says so, not because he’s believable as that smart of a character.

In actuality, he’s absurdly dumb, unable to read people, and constantly outsmarted by heroes and villains alike. This idiot only keeps one-upping the costumed crimefighters because the writers arbitrarily decide that the entire city is in his pocket. Given how much of an impulsive child he is, desperately trying to show his edginess and throwing hissy fits when he doesn’t get his way, I refuse to believe that he could ever gain a shred of influence over anyone

This impression is cemented by Kirk Acevedo sporting a fittingly juvenile performance. Whenever he tries to dial up the menace, he looks like he’s about to cry. Not scared yet? Try his bad Ted Levine impression, which sums up his poor excuse for a delivery when reciting each line.

Even at his best, Diaz is just a generic gangster. So, could someone please tell me why the showrunners defy convention and keep him around after his expiration date? Rather than be thwarted in the finale like previous seasonal Arrowverse villains, he remains a threat well into the following season. I would say he overstays his welcome, but that implies that he was ever welcome in the first place.

10. Iris West
9. Laurel Lance/Black Canary
8. Jimmy Olsen/Guardian
7. Adrian Chase/Prometheus
6. Ricardo Diaz/The Dragon

5. Orlin Dwyer/Cicada
4. Cat Grant
3. Kendra Saunders/Hawkgirl
2. Vandal Savage
1. Beth Kane/Alice

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Arrow: 10 Ways Oliver Changed From Season 1 To The Finale
BY WESLEY BELL   JUNE 6, 2020
https://screenrant.com/arrow-ways-oliver-changed-from-first-season-to-finale/

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7  He Got Married
...
Felicity Smoak was first introduced as the IT that Oliver went to for help when his mission had something to do with technology. The character was only supposed to be in one episode but became a main character in the series.

Over time, she and Oliver started a relationship, and seasons later, during the Crisis on Earth X, the two were married by Diggle, alongside Iris and Barry. While some were disappointed that Oliver didn't get back into and continue a relationship with Laurel Lance as he does in the comics, many fans of his and Felicity's relationship were thrilled by how it developed over the course of the show.
*  *  *
6  He Formed A Team
...
Oliver's initial plan as the Arrow was always to complete his father's mission alone, a plan that changed when he revealed himself as the Hood to his then bodyguard, John Diggle, and later to the trusted IT support for Queen Consolidated, Felicity Smoak.

As the years went on, Oliver opened his circle up to include many teammates to help him in his quest to protect Star City, like Roy Harper, Laurel Lance, and his sister Thea. The roster eventually went on to add names like Curtis Holt, Rory Regan, Dinah Drake, Rene Ramirez.
*  *  *
4  He Had Mia
...
Season 7 of Arrow introduced us to the concept of flashforwards, which followed William Clayton, Oliver's son, in the year 2040. During the flashforwards, we met a character named Blackstar, who we would later learn was the daughter of Oliver and Felicity.

The season ended with Felicity giving birth to Mia in the present and with Oliver believing that he would never get to see his daughter as an adult, on account of his impending teased death. However, in season 8, the two later got a chance to meet during Crisis on Infinite Earths, where they fought alongside each other after Mia was transported to the past by the Monitor.

10 He Stopped Killing
9  He Met William
8  He Unmasked Himself
7  He Got Married
6  He Formed A Team
5  His Suit Changed
4  He Had Mia
3  His Name
2  He Became Spectre
1  He Died

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I guess Arrow really was the cornerstone of the Arrowverse...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2020/06/09/the-flash-fires-hartley-sawyer-for-horrifying-past-tweets/#2bd6e5e93366

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I will say the CW Arrowverse shows are starting to feel a little…unsteady. Legends of Tomorrow lost three cast members this season, two of which did not seem to want to go willingly (Brandon Routh and Courtney Ford), Supergirl wrote off Dean Cain as Kara’s father due to his bad politics, The Flash is now dealing with this Sawyer mess and the show that started it all, Arrow, is now over. Oh, and the lead of Batwoman quit and needs to be recast and rewritten entirely. It just all seems a bit…shaky.

We’ll see how the shows recover this coming winter when they return after COVID hiatus. More soon.

 

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Are the writers back working yet for Any of the above mentioned series? 

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^^^ According to MG in a recent interview, Legends writers have been working during the pandemic (I don't know about the other Arrowverse shows)...

https://www.cbr.com/legends-tomorrow-marc-guggenheim-one-where-were-trapped-tv-preview/

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Beyond the shifted premiere date, has the coronavirus pandemic impacted plans for Season 6?

I think that question is more for Phil [Klemmer] and Keto [Shimizu] and Grainne [Godfree] and the rest of the writers to answer. I will say that, during the pandemic, the writers have been working and they've been generating story documents and the story documents are awesome and they're hysterical. The writers are not impacted -- the stories are not impacted by the pandemic.

Truth be told, I think that that's kind of the philosophy that Legends has always taken, which is that the idea and the story and the characters come first and then the logistical feasibility of pulling something off, that becomes very last. That's just as true with Season 6, in large part also because no one knows exactly how and when production will resume and what limitations there will be. But I think if you can try to get ahead of it, you end up closing doors that would otherwise remain open.

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Also, FYI, I posted the following in the Legends forum today...

1 hour ago, tv echo said:

This applies to all of the Arrowverse shows filming in Vancouver, including LoT (WorkSafeBC is the Workers' Compensation Board of British Columbia)...

WorkSafeBC publishes Health & Safety Protocols for motion picture industry careful restart.
June 5, 2020
https://www.creativebc.com/2020/06/04/responsibility-compliance-and-a-careful-restart.php 

Motion picture and television production: Protocols for returning to operation
June 5, 2020
https://www.worksafebc.com/en/about-us/covid-19-updates/covid-19-returning-safe-operation/motion-picture-television-production 

 

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Digital Spy article on David Opie's interview with Ben Lewis on May 27 - despite the headline, there's Arrow talk as well...

Arrow's Ben Lewis on Canaries spinoff and why the future of the Arrowverse is queer
BY DAVID OPIE   JUNE 12, 2020
https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/a32727696/arrow-ben-lewis-canaries-spinoff-gay-lgbtq/

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At this point, the Arrowverse was already becoming more inclusive, but most of the queer characters were still predominantly played by straight actors. By casting Lewis as an adult version of William, the young star was able to bring an authenticity that was noticeably lacking in other queer heroes on Arrow.
*  *  *
"I knew the character was gay before I knew he was William," says Lewis. "When I auditioned for the part, the description of the role was 'a gay tech.' I think it was a 'gay tech billionaire genius', maybe. That all sounded somewhat within my wheelhouse [laughs]."

After three weeks of negotiations, the deal was finally closed and Lewis officially won the role. However, it was only then that Ben learned his character was actually going to be an adult version of William living twenty years in the future. While that's a substantial leap from just playing a "gay tech," the news initially scared Lewis for another (extremely relatable) reason:

"When [show runner] Beth Schwartz first called to tell me I was playing William in the future, I thought she was telling me that William was going to grow up and become the new Green Arrow. My heart just dropped, because I was like, 'You have made a terrible mistake. If you had been planning to cast me as the new Green Arrow, that is a bad idea. I’m sorry I wasted your time, but we’re going to need to rethink this.'"

"But luckily she wasn’t. She told me then that the plan was to make William's sister the new Green Arrow, and that I would sort of be the Felicity tech-type character. So that was a huge relief to me."
*  *  *
Still, that didn't stop the producers from throwing Ben into a few action sequences on day one anyway. At the end of his first full day of shooting, Lewis found himself hanging upside-down in a harness, asking, "What have I gotten myself into?"

For someone who describes themselves as the "most uncoordinated person on the face of the Earth," that wasn't easy, but it wasn't long before the show runners then started writing William "more to my strengths."

"As the character went on, he got to be funnier and more sarcastic, and also kind of klutz-y. The physical comedy of that was really fun for me, and also much more in my wheelhouse than had they just thrown more action stuff at me."
*  *  *
However, that didn't stop some fans from arguing William should be the new Green Arrow anyway, instead of his sister Mia. Lewis strongly disagrees with this "on a number of levels," explaining that:

"There are different ways of being a hero, and you don’t need to look like Stephen Amell to be one. You don’t need to be physically imposing or dominant in order to contribute to the world, you know?"

"I think it’s really important for young, gawky gay boys like myself to see that on TV," Lewis continues. "To not beat themselves up because they don’t look a certain way or move a certain way."
*  *  *
When trolls occasionally ask Lewis, "Why does everyone on the Arrowverse have to be gay?", he's quick to point out "That's really not the case at all. It’s maybe one or two characters per show. Which is a very small fraction.'"
*  *  *
In fact, it wasn't until the final season that Arrow truly reckoned with queerness in depth, thanks in large part to William's emotional coming out scene.

That moment was particularly "gratifying" for Lewis "on a number of levels." As soon as he learned that adult William would travel back in time and reconnect with Oliver, Lewis realised: "He’s going to have to come out to his father, because he never had the opportunity to do that before he died."

"I know that’s something a lot of queer people haven’t had the opportunity to do, to come out to a parent before they pass," Lewis says. "You can harbour a lot of pain and regret around that. And so as a gay person myself, I felt like that would be a really important and extremely unique thing to depict – to have a second chance to come out to a parent that you’ve lost."
*  *  *
Upon realising this, Lewis emailed Beth Schwartz with his idea: "She immediately understood, and I think was excited about the dramatic storytelling possibilities of it."

Lewis found filming the scene "a little daunting" at first because the idea initially came from him. Fortunately, "the response to it was very moving. It’s the number one thing that people write me about, and comment on, which means a lot to me."

It's hard to think of a better example proving why queer people need to be involved on both sides of the camera, and that's especially true when it comes to crafting queer storylines. As Lewis points out, adding scenes like this "wouldn’t necessarily occur to a straight writer, and it wouldn’t necessarily occur to a straight actor either."
*  *  *
This is something Arrowverse writers will need to consider more moving forward, especially when it comes to characters like William — although his own future is still up in the air right now.

Even before Arrow ended, there was talk of a potential spinoff called Green Arrow and the Canaries which would continue Oliver's legacy in a future version of Star City. The season eight backdoor pilot was well received, and network boss Mark Pedowitz has since insisted that the spinoff is "very much alive."

Still, fans are earnestly waiting for the show to be picked up... and Ben is too.

As of right now, Katherine McNamara, Juliana Harkavy, and Katie Cassidy are the only stars packaged into the spin-off, but Lewis is confident his character would return alongside them: "I don’t know necessarily what my involvement in it would be. I know that I would be involved in it in some way, but I don’t really know in what capacity."
*  *  *
If there's any justice left in Star City, then William will definitely play a key role in the spinoff. After all, the last time we saw him, he was "getting kidnapped for, you know, the fiftieth time," and that's far from a fitting end for Oliver Queen's son.

Not only is William an integral part of this story, but leaving him out of any potential spin-off would also represent a huge missed opportunity for the Arrowverse at large.

"When — I’m going to say 'when', not 'if' — the spinoff happens, it’s going to be the only Arrowverse show set entirely in the future," says Lewis. "And I think there’s a real opportunity there to make it the most progressive version of an Arrowverse show possible."

"Because these shows are superhero shows. So they’re meant to be aspirational. And what I would really love to see is an aspirational vision of the Arrowverse that’s as diverse and as progressive as possible."
*  *  *
Batwoman and Legends of Tomorrow have started to prioritise LGBTQ+ love in a way that Arrow never did — especially when it comes to Sara Lance and Ava Sharpe — but Green Arrow and the Canaries can now take queer representation in the Arrowverse even further.

"I would love to see a same-sex relationship explored on the show with the same sort of depth that we saw from Olicity (Oliver and Felicity). That I think would be really special."

Lewis has discussed this idea with the writers, but if Green Arrow and the Canaries doesn't end up happening, then there's also a chance William's story could continue in another show like Legends instead.

"That’s the really unique thing about being on a show and in a world like this: the possibilities are pretty infinite," says Lewis. "So I would love the opportunity to visit some of those other shows."
*  *  *
Whether William returns to our screens in the spinoff or something else, it doesn't feel like his story is over just yet. Although Lewis is proud to "be a queer actor playing a queer character on a mainstream, big-budget TV show," he told us there's still much more that can be done.

"I hope that we continue to see a deeper, more expansive exploration of William, and other queer characters on the show as well," says Lewis. "I’m not content to be the sole queer character on anything. I don’t think it’s reflective of the culture or my life. Do you know any gay person who’s not surrounded by other gay people?"

Edited by tv echo
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Marc Guggenheim: "There Is No Arrow If There Were No Denny O'Neil"
By RUSS BURLINGAME - June 12, 2020 
https://comicbook.com/tv-shows/news/arrow-creator-marc-guggenheim-remembers-denny-oneil/

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The passing of beloved comic book writer and editor Dennis "Denny" O'Neil has touched off a wave of support and tributes on social media, as the comics community grapples with the loss of one of the most significant creators of the last 50 years. Among them is Marc Guggenheim,co-creator of Arrow and one of the credited writers on the 2011 Green Lantern movie. With Green Lantern and Green Arrow, plus Richard Dragon, Ra's al Ghul, and Talia, Guggenheim has been a prominent voice in helping to shape the public perception of numerous characters O'Neil either created or redefined during his decades in comics.

Calling O'Neil "a titan among titans," Guggenheim told ComicBook.com that he sees the late writer and editor's legacy in virtually every DC and Marvel comic published. And, yes, he acknowledged the profound effect that O'Neil's take on characters like Batman and Green Arrow had on Arrow.

"2020 just keeps taking from us. Today, it’s the man who created the modern day incarnation of Batman," Arrow co-creator Marc Guggenheim told ComicBook.com. "A legendary writer. A titan among titans. It's impossible to overstate his contributions to comics, and it's equally impossible not to see their effects in every page DC and Marvel publish. And, of course, it goes without saying that there is no Arrow if there were no Denny O'Neil. Rest in peace."

O'Neil and Adams' contributions to the Green Arrow mythology have been acknowledged by Guggenheim and others involved in the show repeatedly since it launched. Green Lantern/Green Arrow helped establish Oliver Queen as a political firebrand, a characteristic that ultimately led to the story in Arrow where Ollie briefly became the mayor of Star City. He also helped reshape Batman in the '70s, bringing the character back from the campy, silly version seen in the Adam West show and setting the stage for the Tim Burton and Christopher Nolan films whose aesthetic helped shape the look and feel of Arrow's world.

On top of all of that, characters that O'Neil co-created -- Ra's al Ghul and his daughter Talia, as well as Richard Dragon (reimagined for TV as "Ricardo Diaz") helped shape much of Arrow's run. The League of Assassins and Diaz were key antagonists in about half of the show's total seasons, and so significant to the run that they were shouted out in the final episode of Arrow, when the series ended in January.

Edited by tv echo

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From one of my favorite sites (yes, that's sarcasm) - bottom line: Leora prefers Smallville, following comics canon and Lauriver, while Sarah prefers Arrow, diverging from comics canon and Olicity...

Battle of the Shows: Arrow vs. Smallville
Sarah Little at June 11, 2020
https://www.tvfanatic.com/2020/06/battle-of-the-shows-arrow-vs-smallville/

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Our TV Fanatics Leora Waltuch and Sarah Little sat down to discuss the differing tones, romantic relationships, villains, and more of each show to prove why Arrow or Smallville is better.
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Leora: ... In addition to that, as a series based around a comic show, Arrow ignored canon more often than it didn't.
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That was never more apparent than in their portrayal of the Black Canary, who doesn't even marry or end up with Oliver Queen. In the series, she is not a compelling superhero and later dies.
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Smallville introduced original characters like Chloe Sullivan, who fans argued early into Arrow's run was might have inspired the character of Felicity Smoak.

And while fans turned on Felicity half-way through the seasons, in ten years, fans did not turn on Chloe until Smallville Season 9. And I never did and never will.
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Sarah: ... And I'm fine with Arrow ignoring some of the comic book canons because it ended up becoming its own take on Oliver Queen's story.

They did wrong by Laurel Lance, no argument, but the happy little accident that was Felicity Smoak turned the show around and made it what it was.

In my opinion, she was always a character to look up to who went through major character development that served her well.
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Leora: I love Felicity too, but they didn't have to make her Oliver's love interest. Although the fact that Oliver on Smallville ended up with Chloe, who mirrors Felicity, is interesting to note.
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Sarah: See, I'm such a big Oliver and Felicity fan, but I also was not familiar with the Green Arrow comics before watching the show.

I can see how a lot of fans would be mad that Oliver and Laurel were not "endgame," but I think it would be a disservice to not act on the great chemistry between Stephen Amell and Emily Bett Rickards.

Plus, there were never any real sparks between Oliver and Laurel.

I would argue that Arrow had its fair share of strong female friendships. Of course, there could never be too many, but they did have Felicity and Sara and, later on, Mia and Zoe.

Plus, the relationship between Laurel and Sara, while sometimes rocky, was a highlight of the series.
*  *  *
Leora: I never actually read the comics either, but I did my research before the series came out because I like to know what to expect. I like Oliver and Felicity as a couple, but I disagree that he and Laurel didn't have any chemistry.

That's very much an opinion thing though, so I'll let it be.

I know Sara flirted with Felicity and helped her when she was jealous and wanted to train, but I never felt like they were friends, except maybe when Sara came back for Arrow Season 7. Mia and Zoe, I could see.

And they were setting up Black Siren and Felicity to be great friends, but that was way late in the game. As for Sara and Laurel, they weren't both alive and together for most of the show.

It was more a backstory of why one of them does what they do and is who they are. The relationship between Sarah and Laurel had potential, but the payoff was minimal because the show kept killing them off.
*  *  *
Leora: Yes, it is good that Oliver remained human. And there were strong female characters, but most of them were original to the series, not initially intended to be a big part of things, like Sara and Felicity.

The characters they tried to get us invested in in the beginning, i.e., Laurel, Thea, sort of got written out. I loved Thea and was so happy she got a happy ending with Roy, but I never understood why they wrote her and Roy out in the first place.

Again, these were characters with a stronger connection to comic lore and who seemed slated at the beginning of the series to be important.

Because I agree with you 100% that the show lost its way midway through, and I think part of that comes from coming changing so much and going so off track from the original vision.
*  *  *
Sarah: A lot did change after Arrow Season 1, and a lot of it was adapting to their new vision of the show. It is quite obvious that most of what they had planned for Arrow did not come to fruition, but I will argue that it was better for it.

We got to see the wonderful, and sometimes sad, relationship development between Oliver and Felicity, Oliver become a father and Oliver struggle with what it meant to be a vigilante.

Ultimately, the show was about Oliver, and that is why it resonated with so many people.
*  *  *
Leora: ... In the beginning, I had some issues with Arrow's premise of the hero/Green Arrow character going down a hit-list that even he didn't understand the purpose behind.

The introduction of a villain that made him fight for something greater was well done, though I think it was more the influence of Felicity and then losing Tommy that softened him.
*  *  *
Sarah: I think that some of the stories Arrow did, like when they pitted OTA against NTA, were pointless and were not what Arrow was truly about.

But when you think about the overarching plots, like Oliver's character development and the progression of his relationship with Felicity, the show was better for diverging from the source material and taking a different route than planned.
*  *  *
Leora: Where do you feel Smallville lacks in comparison to Arrow?

Sarah: Arrow introduced Oliver's main love interest, unbeknownst to most people at the time, on Arrow Season 1 Episode 3, whereas Clark did not meet Lois until Smallville Season 4.

The central love story of Arrow played out from the beginning till the end, while Smallville had to wait for its love story.

And I know we have been through this, but I love that Oliver and Felicity were unexpected and one of the best accidents ever to happen, whereas everyone knows that Clark Kent ends up with Lois Lane.
*  *  *
Leora: ... And Clark's love for Lana never seemed to detract from the love he would one day feel for Lois, just as the relationship he eventually had with Lois never seemed to take away from what he once shared with Lana.

Both loves endured and mattered to who he was as a person, and it was all very How I Met Your Mother in how it showed you could have more than one great love in your life.

Sarah: That's a good point! It's hard to argue against Clark and Lois as they did have an epic love story, but I have personally always been more drawn to Oliver and Felicity.

It started as a little crush on Felicity's end and blossomed into a great love that was a continuous struggle for both of them. It was tragic and beautiful and everything in between.

Oliver, of course, never believed that he deserved to be with someone he truly cares about, but Felicity brought light into his life and was what he needed. They are both love stories that will stand the test of time, and they could not be more different.
*  *  *
The character of Oliver Queen is one that will stick with me forever, and I believe he is one of the most well-developed characters on television as of late. All in all, we are lucky to have seen these two great superhero origin stories.

FYI: There's an online poll at the end where you choose between Arrow and Smallville. No surprise, most readers of this particular site are choosing Smallville.

Edited by tv echo
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Ben Lewis makes a good point, that a gay actor or writer has insights that a straight one doesn't and that is why it's important to have their input.

It's ironic that before him the Arrowverse had gay characters played by straight actors and gay actors playing straight characters (e.g. John Barrowman, Colton Haynes, Victor Garber, Maisie Richardson-Sellars).

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That's a really good interview with BL, he comes across hilarious and humble. I like that he said to Beth "I can't possibly be the GA I'm the most uncoordinated person ever!"

Interesting that it took three weeks of contract negotiations before he got the role, even though he was a jobbing actor before.

Also interesting that he isn't officially signed on as a potential regular on the spin off, I thought that he would be, even if it's just the three leads that were official. 

16 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Ben Lewis makes a good point, that a gay actor or writer has insights that a straight one doesn't and that is why it's important to have their input.

It's ironic that before him the Arrowverse had gay characters played by straight actors and gay actors playing straight characters (e.g. John Barrowman, Colton Haynes, Victor Garber, Maisie Richardson-Sellars).

I've always thought it was ironic that almost all their gay actors were playing straight and visa versa (apart from Ruby last year as well). I think gay actors do have more insight into the nuances of being queer than straight ones for obvious reasons, although many straight actors have done very well. We might not have had that scene where William comes out to Oliver if he hadn't asked for it as a hugely important moment for both of them. 

Although on Arrow the only way that a same sex couple was going to get the same depth and attention Olicity got was if Oliver came out. That's obviously not the case with LOT or Batwoman. If GAATC goes to series I see Mia's relationships taking centre stage (possibly *both* her triangle ships would be interracial assuming all the actors haven't got other work by that time which is also not common) then DDs and maybe even an attempt at giving a Laurel another love interest again. So William might be 4th important in the current line up unless they do some rejigging or the canaries are mostly single. 

He's more optimistic than I am about it being picked up now, but maybe he's just putting it out into the universe. Interesting that he could theoretically get rescued in a LOT ep if it's not picked up, and then KC would stay on as a new regular because she's never leaving. 

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13 hours ago, tv echo said:

Still, fans are earnestly waiting for the show to be picked up... and Ben is too.

As of right now, Katherine McNamara, Juliana Harkavy, and Katie Cassidy are the only stars packaged into the spin-off, but Lewis is confident his character would return alongside them: "I don’t know necessarily what my involvement in it would be. I know that I would be involved in it in some way, but I don’t really know in what capacity."

If Ben Lewis isn't a regular, I don't have much hope that Joseph Jones and the other FTA actors are involved much either. Throw it all into the garbage. 

It's amazingly tone deaf to me that they had a young, diverse cast and decided to go with the 3 straight white women route. It's not like the CW didn't already have 3 DC shows with a female lead and a majority of white regulars (Supergirl, Stargirl, Legends). 🙄

Edited by lemotomato
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Ben is one of the most eloquent, intelligent and charming actor they ever cast, and that's a rare feet for the cw. It would be a huge miss if they let him go because of contracts. Almost as much of a miss as it would have been if they never called Emily back. But again, it's the CW. It's a whole lot of tell-don't-show when it comes to diversity. 

I never thought it would be a possibility for the show to be centered around Mia and not have William around when he's the only family she has left. Coming from the same producers who would refuse to kill Thea because Oliver lost all of his family members, even when Willa wanted out, that seemed impossible. That being said, I also don't believe the show will get picked up so this comment might be pointless. 

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I hold out hope that BL might be a regular in the end if it does get picked up. It does seem very stupid though, especially as he, CB and JDJ would seem to have pivotal roles in the backdoor pilot and all bring diversity and eye candy. I can see why CB might have bigger fish to fry, he had another pilot after all, but they still gave him a big potential role by being Mia's fiancée who also gets the dual memories of Deathstroke. Not to mention being a Diggle. It seemed like that would be a huge part and it's crazy they didn't lock that down, even if they do intend to.

However if they aren't contacting agents/actors as part of negotiations with the CW how likely is regular status going to be post pick up? 

They can't just have the three women as their only regulars, even if it's not FTA and JJ. And those regulars would be friends and love interests and extra Canary or two...which are the characters we've already been introduced to. Dinah has a personal mystery to solve but Laurel seemed to be slipping into the antagonistic mentor role for Mia. 

I suppose William being kidnapped could be a season long thing so only a few appearances but that seems boring. But they definitely wanted JJ and Connor around and made BL and JDJ regulars on Arrow so I don't get why they allegedly don't know what their involvement might be if that's the case. 

 

 

 

Edited by Featherhat
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Hopefully Berlanti & Co, have learned that what makes or breaks these shows is the team, not the lead character. Three women fighting may have worked in the comics but it doesn't bring enough diversity in terms of storylines for a TV show.  They need good back-ups, like Diggle and Felicity, not Curtis and Rene. They need William, JJ and Sara.

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The good news is, if they re-write the BDP a third time, they won't waste another episode of Arrow! That's the other DCTV shows' burden now. 

The only thing I ask for is to rescue William. The fact that they used him as the cliffhanger to the detriment of arrow fans getting closure still makes me mad. If the spinoff happens it won't happen I can see them making his kidnapping a season long mystery, or even half season, just so the execs can find out if the powerpuff girls are capable of carrying the show as a unit or if they have to go for plan B aka FTA (that should've been plan A).

Edited by RS3
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FYI...

DC FanDome Announced With THE BATMAN, ZACK SNYDER'S JUSTICE LEAGUE, Arrowverse Reveals, & More
RubyGoldstone | 6/16/2020
https://www.comicbookmovie.com/justice_league/dc-fandome-announced-with-the-batman-zack-snyders-justice-league-arrowverse-reveals-more-a176085 

Quote

BURBANK, Calif. - Save the date and prep your cosplay! On Saturday, August 22, starting at 10 a.m. PDT, Warner Bros. will welcome fans everywhere into the DC FanDome—a free virtual fan experience where no badge is required.

Imagine all the Super Heroes and Super-Villains you’ve ever loved finally coming together in one place to celebrate DC’s past, present and future. Accessible for 24 hours at DCFanDome.com, the global event will immerse fans into the DC Multiverse, with new announcements from WB Games, Film and TV, and comics, as well as an unprecedented opportunity to hear from the casts and creators behind your favorite feature films and TV series, including: Aquaman, The Batman, Batwoman, Black Adam, Black Lightning, DC Super Hero Girls, DC’s Legends of Tomorrow, DC’s Stargirl, Doom Patrol, The Flash, Harley Quinn, the SnyderCut of Justice League, Lucifer, Pennyworth, SHAZAM!, The Suicide Squad, Supergirl, Superman & Lois, Teen Titans GO!, Titans, Watchmen, Young Justice: Outsiders and, coming this fall to theaters worldwide, Wonder Woman 1984.

The DC FanDome is the place to hear highly anticipated announcements and the latest news, see exclusive footage, and venture into themed worlds designed to entertain everyone from movie and TV superfans to gamers and readers, to families and kids. With special presentations to engage fans in every time zone across the globe, you’ll have the opportunity to have an experience that’s all your own. Inside this virtual world, fans will also get access to localized events, featuring the faces and voices from countries around the world in their local language. No matter where you live, your age or your level of fandom, there is something for you.
*  *  *

  • DC WatchVerse: Here's where you grab a seat, sit back and join our virtual audience and become completely engrossed in hours of must-see content from around the world. Everything from panels and exclusive screenings to never-before-seen footage, featuring cast, creators and behind-the-scenes crew from across DC Films, TV, Home Entertainment and Games.

*  *  *
(Read More)

Edited by tv echo

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