Carrie Ann July 26, 2016 Share July 26, 2016 33 minutes ago, Angel12d said: And what is up with these writers always publicly calling out these negative comments? Just let it go, FFS! I see elements of entitlement on both sides of the issue, and can never really figure out where I come down on it on a larger scale, but this is the one thing I am sure about. There's just no need to call attention to specific instances, IMO, and it's not a good look for anyone. If someone leaves you an abusive comment--like @apinknightmare described above--I could understand having a public reaction about that, though I feel like it would probably be better to just report it to AO3 (as appropriate), delete it, and move on. Speaking of that, I guess my other solid opinion is that I have no problem with authors choosing to moderate or delete comments as they wish. Authors can't stop people from making negative/critical comments (unless they close comments altogether), but I don't think anyone is entitled to have their comments published on an author's work, let alone entitled to a dialogue about them. 5 Link to comment
kismet July 26, 2016 Share July 26, 2016 I also think there is a blurring of the lines because of the nature of social media. For some of these writers, when they point out criticisms or go to other social media outlets to vent their frustrations over criticisms it's because they are talking to their "friends" not just their followers. It's similar to if you were to get your friends together and ask for support when you're having a bad day or something is not going your way in life. So they are not necessarily drawing attention to criticisms because they want to complain, but rather asking for support from their "friends". Sometimes we all need to vent to caring ears. 2 Link to comment
EmeraldArcher July 26, 2016 Share July 26, 2016 45 minutes ago, Angel12d said: I really love that author's work. She's one of the best in this fandom. But I've just read her tumblr discussion and I disagree with a lot of what she's said. You post online, you accept any comments you receive. It really is as simple as that. Demanding that people don't comment if they don't like something isn't right or realistic. I think as long as you're as nice and respectful as possible, you should comment however you choose. And what is up with these writers always publicly calling out these negative comments? Just let it go, FFS! I completely agree with you, @Angel12d. I LOVE her work and was shocked that she was the author being discussed here. Although I'm a published author of fiction, I haven't written fan fic, so I have a different perspective of what it means to put your work out there for public consumption. However, herding your readers into a space in which you'll only accept praise seems to counter the community aspects of fandom and fan works. In a class I taught this summer, we explored fan works and the fandom community within the larger conversation of intellectual property, and I likened fan works to friends sitting around a campfire telling stories that featured their favorite scary-movie characters, or even to parents telling the children bedtime stories starring the kids' favorite book, TV, or movie characters. We also talked about folklore and oral traditions that have been added to by various anonymous contributors over hundreds of years. The common thread through all of these is the nature of the relationship between storyteller and audience--familiarity and friendship, shared interest in the characters, and feedback. Although the online publishing of fan works motivates a discussion about intellectual property in a way that campfire or bedtime stories don't, I strongly feel that online fandoms share all the other characteristics I mentioned. Furthermore, because they are published online for a larger audience, they share the same characteristics as any other published or public art form--they are open to criticism. The arts have always had a symbiotic relationship to criticism, because consumption of art has always required providing patronage to the artist. That system of feedback enables an artist to respond to the audience's desire for art, whether it's for a patron willing to invest in the artist or it's for a broader audience who provides word-of-mouth support of the artistic venture. Even fan works authors allude to the system of patronage when they include an author's note such as "kudos and comments feed my soul." They crave that feedback through the only available mechanisms (kudos and comments) so that they know their work is appreciated. Stories that garner very few kudos and comments must be incredibly disheartening for the author, so I can only imagine appreciation for feedback suggestive of improvements that would lead to more kudos and comments to feed the author's soul. So, I think that author's tumblr discussion fails to acknowledge the paradox of fan works, which is that they're allowed to exist without violating copyright because they adhere to the community-oriented framework of the oral tradition while existing in the public sphere with its attendant criticism. Therefore, fan works are not some new and entirely unique concept that can create its own rules against criticism and demand only positive endorsements. 14 Link to comment
Guest July 26, 2016 Share July 26, 2016 1 hour ago, Carrie Ann said: I see elements of entitlement on both sides of the issue, and can never really figure out where I come down on it on a larger scale, but this is the one thing I am sure about. There's just no need to call attention to specific instances, IMO, and it's not a good look for anyone. If someone leaves you an abusive comment--like @apinknightmare described above--I could understand having a public reaction about that, though I feel like it would probably be better to just report it to AO3 (as appropriate), delete it, and move on. Speaking of that, I guess my other solid opinion is that I have no problem with authors choosing to moderate or delete comments as they wish. Authors can't stop people from making negative/critical comments (unless they close comments altogether), but I don't think anyone is entitled to have their comments published on an author's work, let alone entitled to a dialogue about them. I agree. My annoyance lately comes from calling out specific instances because often it opens up this kind of dialogue where everyone jumps in to defend the author (exactly what said author was looking for) and it devolves into nastiness. It's kinda pathetic, IMO, and I've seen it happen many times. And I agree that authors should be able to delete comments or close the comment section if they wish. Absolutely. Link to comment
Morrigan2575 July 26, 2016 Share July 26, 2016 (edited) ETA: nevermind, not the same writer just similar names Edited July 26, 2016 by Morrigan2575 Link to comment
thegirlsleuth July 26, 2016 Share July 26, 2016 I generally only leave feedback when I can say something positive, but I don't think cutting off negative comments on principle is a good idea. I appreciate that fanfiction is freely given, and for some it is how they are learning the craft, but it is given to the larger audience who are allowed to respond however they'd like provided there is not name calling. I took a writing workshop with an instructor who looked at all the feedback before we returned it to the author because he was on the lookout for what he termed "soul killers", critiques that are not meant constructively, but rather to tear down the writers and their will to write. You don't want that, but no one can improve their writing without feedback. I think Macha is an awesome writer, but I saw the critique she referred to, and I think the person was expressing her opinion in a respectful way and I can't understand why Macha thinks it is out of bounds. I also think her approach doesn't reflects the online culture, where give and take is assumed. It's no longer people running off 'zines on the copy machine, and you have to take into account your new, wider audience. I am a pro writer, and the comments I take most seriously are from my agent, my editor, and the writing group I've been working with for seven years. My editor and agent sometimes contradict each other, but usually we find a middle ground, and other pro writers get super jealous that my agent sends my 12 - 16 page critiques on every book. My writing group jokes that we are the Fight Club of writing groups--no holds barred. I trust them enough that I can take their comments openly, as they take mine, and tellingly, three out of seven of us now have book deals with big five publishers. I tend to ignore comments on Goodreads or Amazon--my favorite one star Goodreads review was from someone who counted every comma in the first 90 pages of the book and slammed me for mechanics, and I sometimes read that one aloud to friends. That said, a comment that showed up a lot in reader reviews of my first two novels was that people wanted a family tree to keep the characters straight. My trusted readers and media reviewers didn't feel that way because they did a close read, but the casual reader couldn't always keep people straight. I used that feedback to try to strengthen my characterization in later writing. I would have never done that without the feedback from the more casual readers, and to cut that off would have been a mistake. I can think of two other writers in the fandom who have made clear that they don't appreciate criticism. In both cases, I think the writers are good, but in one case I think they need to learn to edit down, and in the second I think their story would be even better if they varied sentence length/dialogue structure. I've stopped reading both. 11 Link to comment
dtissagirl July 26, 2016 Share July 26, 2016 A parable, if you will -- Few years ago in a different fandom, a somewhat prolific writer started posting a WIP that had a gross plot going on. Dude wants kids, so he messes up his wife's birth control and she gets pregnant, even though she doesn't want to at that point in their lives. Written as wacky rom-com, aww shucks, isn't his ~earning for a baby so adorable? Writer had absolutely no sense that people might not react well to that. And this was posted to community that only really had positive comments [and was pretty well moderated]. So when comments started showing up -- people were disturbed by the trope, but were very very calm and nice about it -- the writer simply could not deal with it. She got defensive, started telling people she didn't agree with what the guy did but this was just the story and please be patient, then the way she "fixed" it was halfway through the fic, she doubled down on the fallout, and added melodramatic chapters of the wife being super dramatically mad and depressed, and the husband profusely apologizing and being depressed, anyway, what was supposed to be a wacky cute pregnancy rom-com turned into a weepy mess. The writers' lesson in all this? It wasn't the problematic trope that caused anything, it was concrit that messed up her fic. So that's my problem with a community of only ever positive reinforcement: it might inadvertently breed problematic as fuck writers. 8 Link to comment
Morrigan2575 July 26, 2016 Share July 26, 2016 (edited) I remember that fic, yeah i didn't really like the whole trope and IIRC one of the chapters dealt with the wife ealizing she really wanted the baby once she got over her fear of passing on her Meta gene? Edited July 26, 2016 by Morrigan2575 Link to comment
bijoux July 26, 2016 Share July 26, 2016 That sounds like a book I heard about. I didn't read either it or the fic, but the plot sounds familiar to me. Link to comment
looptab July 26, 2016 Share July 26, 2016 1 hour ago, thegirlsleuth said: my favorite one star Goodreads review was from someone who counted every comma in the first 90 pages of the book and slammed me for mechanics, Some Goodreads reviews are brutal. *sends hug your way* 1 Link to comment
thegirlsleuth July 26, 2016 Share July 26, 2016 Just now, looptab said: Some Goodreads reviews are brutal. *sends hug your way* It's the two star reviews that are usually the gut punch. The one star reviews are generally hilarious. 1 Link to comment
Midnight Lullaby July 26, 2016 Share July 26, 2016 That trope happened on Desperate Housewives. Yes, I watched it. LOL Link to comment
apinknightmare July 26, 2016 Share July 26, 2016 11 minutes ago, thegirlsleuth said: It's the two star reviews that are usually the gut punch. The one star reviews are generally hilarious. I try not to look at my Goodreads page - just take a quick glance at the overall star rating and call it a day. You're brave! 1 Link to comment
thegirlsleuth July 26, 2016 Share July 26, 2016 2 minutes ago, apinknightmare said: I try not to look at my Goodreads page - just take a quick glance at the overall star rating and call it a day. You're brave! S.J. Rozan made the following comment: "A writer should only go to Goodreads to write a review for another author, and that author should never see that review." Not a bad way to think about it. 1 Link to comment
Nostariel July 27, 2016 Share July 27, 2016 I am utterly baffled by this ConCrit kefuffle. I first read Macha nearly 15 years ago in X-Men fandom. Has she secretly been harbouring resentment this entire time? Silently seething every time someone posts anything that isn't gushing praise? Enquiring minds want to know! 2 Link to comment
bijoux July 27, 2016 Share July 27, 2016 I think a lot of good points were raised regarding both sides of the issue. I really have nothing more to add than she's supposed to post the final chapter of Unbearable Hotness... today and I've enjoyed the ride. 2 Link to comment
EmeraldArcher July 27, 2016 Share July 27, 2016 4 hours ago, bijoux said: I think a lot of good points were raised regarding both sides of the issue. I really have nothing more to add than she's supposed to post the final chapter of Unbearable Hotness... today and I've enjoyed the ride. I LOVED the ending! Such fluffiness! 2 Link to comment
bijoux July 27, 2016 Share July 27, 2016 In even better news, she said she's going back to working on Deceive. Yes! 6 Link to comment
Luckylyn July 27, 2016 Author Share July 27, 2016 2 hours ago, bijoux said: Damn you, Barry! I'm amused by the idea of Felicity and Malcolm as this diabolical couple in an alternate universe. Although, my favorite potential alternate earth couple is Felicity/ Tommy. Even though the characters never got to meet on screen :( I just get stuck on the idea that they could have been a good couple. 3 Link to comment
kismet July 28, 2016 Share July 28, 2016 FS & MM as a diabolical power couple that rules one of the Alternate Earths, does actually sound like a whole lot of fun to watch! 5 Link to comment
TrueMyth July 28, 2016 Share July 28, 2016 I actually went looking for FS/MM fic, but there are only two. One is unfinished at seven chapters and the other is also Slade/Oliver, which does not float my boat. Link to comment
foreverevolving July 28, 2016 Share July 28, 2016 4 hours ago, Luckylyn said: Damn you, Barry! I'm amused by the idea of Felicity and Malcolm as this diabolical couple in an alternate universe. Although, my favorite potential alternate earth couple is Felicity/ Tommy. Even though the characters never got to meet on screen :( I just get stuck on the idea that they could have been a good couple. 1 hour ago, kismet said: FS & MM as a diabolical power couple that rules one of the Alternate Earths, does actually sound like a whole lot of fun to watch! I hate you! I hate you both... My answer to your damn Plot Bunny: 8 Link to comment
foreverevolving July 28, 2016 Share July 28, 2016 Can't decide which way to go, a repercussion of the flashpoint or another parallel earth or leave it a mystery.. 3 Link to comment
Luckylyn July 28, 2016 Author Share July 28, 2016 (edited) @foreverevolving I am so happy this plot bunny captivated you. I'm looking forward to what you come up with. Flashpoint vs. alternate Earth? If it's a consequence of Flashpoint we see Barry react and how his actions had a negative impact on Felicity. Flashpoint means Barry's the only one who will notice differences and the others won't know anything is off. But if it's an alernate Earth Oliver and Diggle get to react because they know a Felicity that is good and be horrified by her using her skills for evil. How would Felicity be impacted by seeing a ruthless dark version of herself romantically involved with Malcolm? Plus I could imagine a good Felicity from our Earth vs an evil alternate Earth Felicity having an epic computer battle. I think the key to Felicity going evil would be that her father stayed in her life and either took her away from Donna or Donna was killed as a consequence of Felicity's father's criminal activities. Edited July 28, 2016 by Luckylyn 2 Link to comment
bettername2come July 28, 2016 Share July 28, 2016 Quote I think the key to Felicity going evil would be that her father stayed in her life and either took her away from Donna or Donna was killed as a consequence of Felicity's father's criminal activities. Oooh, I like it. I need this fic in my life.I'm imagining Isabel-esque Felicity hooking up with Merlyn and I'm not as disturbed by this possibility as I should be. 5 Link to comment
EmeraldArcher July 29, 2016 Share July 29, 2016 2 hours ago, bettername2come said: Oooh, I like it. I need this fic in my life.I'm imagining Isabel-esque Felicity hooking up with Merlyn and I'm not as disturbed by this possibility as I should be. If you write it, I'll leave a politely worded comment on AO3 that Felicity is OOC. Too soon? ;-) 2 Link to comment
foreverevolving July 29, 2016 Share July 29, 2016 13 minutes ago, EmeraldArcher said: If you write it, I'll leave a politely worded comment on AO3 that Felicity is OOC. Too soon? ;-) Ha HA!!- i'll probably agree with you! if only because my writing is so rusty i may not be able to capture her properly. But first I need to actually write it, so far I have like four lines.. 1 Link to comment
Luckylyn July 29, 2016 Author Share July 29, 2016 8 minutes ago, foreverevolving said: Ha HA!!- i'll probably agree with you! if only because my writing is so rusty i may not be able to capture her properly. But first I need to actually write it, so far I have like four lines.. If you get stuck just remember, "You are not alone and I believe in you." Here's some inspiration. 3 Link to comment
foreverevolving July 29, 2016 Share July 29, 2016 (edited) LOL, I still have zero idea where the story may go. I don't tend to do long arcs just cause I tend to lose interest- as my unfinished Ugly Betty movie fanfic from 2010 proves. My better writings tend to be short character/relationship driven and based introspects. We'll see what happens, maybe i'll try a bigger arc this time- I have sooo much free time right now as I wait for a reply from USCIS to know if they approved my work permit or not so... Edited July 29, 2016 by foreverevolving Link to comment
EmeraldArcher July 29, 2016 Share July 29, 2016 44 minutes ago, wonderwall said: Fanart Friday is awesome today lol I LOVE this!! To really drive it home, there should also be images from previous seasons, such as: Both of his parents sacrificing their lives for him Felicity putting on his mask and calling him a hero for the first time His brink-of-death montage on the mountain of those he loves most Any moment of Diggle having his back Ghost Tommy urging him to get up and fight He and Thea eating candy canes in remembrance of their childhood tradition A lot of those scenes might be too heavy for this rather playful "in-your-face" campaign about SA's quotes, but I think they drive home even more how important his relationships with people have been, even the familial and platonic ones. Focusing on just the romantic Olicity moments dilutes the impact of these visual statements a little, I think. 5 Link to comment
Thundercatmary July 30, 2016 Share July 30, 2016 http://archiveofourown.org/works/4535685/chapters/10322457 Anyone familiar with this fic "His Girl Wenesday?" It's completed so I was going to give it a shot but I don't usually read AU fics. Link to comment
Mellowyellow July 30, 2016 Share July 30, 2016 (edited) 6 hours ago, Thundercatmary said: http://archiveofourown.org/works/4535685/chapters/10322457 Anyone familiar with this fic "His Girl Wenesday?" It's completed so I was going to give it a shot but I don't usually read AU fics. Yes I rather liked it! I think the author writes really well but I generally have a very high tolerance for AUs as I just imagine the characters looking like Felicity and Oliver and am not too fussed about whether they are similar to the show. To be honest I think AUs are a bit of a relief after season 4! Edited July 30, 2016 by Mellowyellow Link to comment
EmeraldArcher July 30, 2016 Share July 30, 2016 44 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said: Yes I rather liked it! I think the author writes really well but I generally have a very high tolerance for AUs as I just imagine the characters looking like Felicity and Oliver and am not too fussed about whether they are similar to the show. To be honest I think AUs are a bit of a relief after season 4! I started out liking it, but I thought the author didn't seem to know when the story was over. It went on much longer than maybe it should have to the point that it became anticlimactic. I do think the writer is pretty good, so most up the chapters were pretty engaging. I don't think I finished the last several chapters, though, because it's like she saved up all the Spoiler Olicity smut for the very end, and abandoned the plot for several chapters focused on smut. I enjoy AUs, too, but I'm always wary of stories in which Oliver starts as a seemingly irredeemable cad, Felicity observes the rotation of women/sex partners--or worse, accidentally observes him having sex--or, an agonizing and unrealistic slow burn when they've gravitated toward each other and snuggle and hold hands, but both are uncertain that the other one "likes" them. A lot of AUs have that last one, in which Oliver and Felicity will fall asleep together on couches or beds, cuddle, and spend ridiculous amounts of time being very domesticated and easy with each other, but feel insecure about how the other one feels. I feel like those authors must be very young because they achieve such easy, undefined intimacy in their relationships--I've seen it in both my kids (now in their early 20s). As a woman in my 40s, I'm pretty sure I'd be confident that a man with whom I spend most of my time and we frequently snuggle on my couch until we fall asleep is interested in more than friendship. And, if he looked like Oliver, I'd find out definitively the very first time we got cozy. 2 Link to comment
Guest July 30, 2016 Share July 30, 2016 I enjoyed His Girl Wednesday but I agree that it dragged on far too long. But then I feel this way about a lot of fics. Link to comment
Thundercatmary July 30, 2016 Share July 30, 2016 So far I'm liking it, my only issue so far is Oliver. I think it's easy to take the playboy characterization to far. 1 Link to comment
wonderwall July 31, 2016 Share July 31, 2016 The Darkest Hour just updated! It's another good chapter. It's a bit slower in terms of plot, but it's fantastic because we see Oliver/Tommy's relationship a bit more, we see it move to different places. It's primarily a Tommy/Oliver chapter (with a bit of Olicity at the end), but their relationship is so fascinating. The author is doing such a great job in terms of pacing and building up every aspect of the fic which a lot of writers (even professional ones) fail to do. So glad to see this update! http://archiveofourown.org/chapters/17367718?show_comments=true&view_full_work=false#main 4 Link to comment
Morrigan2575 July 31, 2016 Share July 31, 2016 That was a good chapter. Just hate that it's been so long since she updated Link to comment
wonderwall July 31, 2016 Share July 31, 2016 Yeah... It sucks that it takes her long to update, but I don't mind waiting if the chapters are good quality :) Link to comment
Thundercatmary July 31, 2016 Share July 31, 2016 My biggest issue with waiting so long for updates is that by the time they update I've forgotten the plot and have to start over. 2 Link to comment
Morrigan2575 July 31, 2016 Share July 31, 2016 I usually have to go back at least 1 chapter after a long wait. Sometimes, if it's a really long wait, i have to start over from the beginning. 2 Link to comment
bijoux July 31, 2016 Share July 31, 2016 Yup. I had to re-read the previous chapter yesterday and I'm only going to read the update now. Link to comment
lemotomato July 31, 2016 Share July 31, 2016 (edited) The fic is so well written that I don't mind re-reading old chapters before an update. I have so many wonderful fics bookmarked that are abandoned WIPs that I'm happy whenever an author updates, no matter how long it takes. Edited July 31, 2016 by lemotomato 4 Link to comment
bijoux July 31, 2016 Share July 31, 2016 Confession - I prefer the first part of the chapter. Don't get me wrong, the end was nice even if I was uneasy with them being outside. The part with Oliver and Tommy, though? Man, that was lit! There is just so much love but also years of resentment from Tommy's side as well and the writer is very competently hitting me in the feels and building tension leading up to their clash. The past Robert is the most I have ever liked him on the show or in fic. His final words to Oliver were excellent. One has to imagine that Ollie was an exceptionally stuborn sort of mule to be the useless lump of flesh that he was. Because Robert did some pretty solid parenting there. 3 Link to comment
thegirlsleuth July 31, 2016 Share July 31, 2016 Thanks for the head's up on the The Darkest Hour. That was really good, the quiet tension as scary as some of her big action scenes. 2 Link to comment
wonderwall August 1, 2016 Share August 1, 2016 This is a neat little blog that archives fics into categories and answers all Olicity fic questions. If you're having trouble finding a fic just ask them. http://theolicitylibrary.tumblr.com/ I use it a lot and it's cool to see their recommendations. They're usually pretty good. 4 Link to comment
wonderwall August 2, 2016 Share August 2, 2016 This fic is old, but I really loved it. empty the skies out. by fosil Summary: Felicity waved goodbye, hopped on the train to Central City, where she would stay for three years and four months. (three years, countless encounters with Team Arrow, slight crossover, Felicity/Oliver, some Barry/Iris, Felicity POV) http://archiveofourown.org/works/2791298/chapters/6264983 Link to comment
Mellowyellow August 2, 2016 Share August 2, 2016 8 hours ago, wonderwall said: This fic is old, but I really loved it. empty the skies out. by fosil Summary: Felicity waved goodbye, hopped on the train to Central City, where she would stay for three years and four months. (three years, countless encounters with Team Arrow, slight crossover, Felicity/Oliver, some Barry/Iris, Felicity POV) http://archiveofourown.org/works/2791298/chapters/6264983 I really enjoyed that! Thank you for recommending it! Link to comment
bijoux August 2, 2016 Share August 2, 2016 I'm like 80% through the first chapter and I don't know if I can finish. I'm sort of spooked by the ubercompetent Laurel. It's like it's someone else. It's well written, son't get me wrong, but I don't get some things at all. And I say this as someone who isn't against improving Laurel in fics. This is just too much, with the 10th comment on how Laurel is a more competent vigilante than Oliver. 1 Link to comment
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