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7 hours ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

If it's the same network as Shark Tank, they're showing NHL hockey games. 

Yes ABC

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Caught up a bit and watched the Riley Fox story. I seem to remember this being covered on some other show, but it'd been some time, I couldn't recall all the details. 

Such an utterly, utterly heartbreaking case. That poor little girl. That poor family..

On 5/8/2021 at 12:36 PM, Madding crowd said:

I cried at how they questioned the little boy and again when the murderer said she cried for her daddy.

Same. Tyler covering his head with the hoodie because he was so uncomfortable with all the questions about his dad was just...damn. Poor kid. I really appreciated the interviews with the woman who explained how badly that child interview with Tyler was handled, as well as the woman who explained how so many police interrogation tactics lend themselves well to false confessions.

On 5/8/2021 at 2:17 PM, BusyOctober said:

That district attorney who lead the persecution of Kevin should be ashamed of himself.

He sure skedaddled away pretty damn fast when the ABC news crew showed up to ask him about the case, didn't he? I hate it in cases like this where politics enters the picture and law enforcement are so desperate to convict someone, not because the victims/their loved ones and the town deserves answers and safety and justice, but rather because they need to look good for an upcoming election. 

I also rolled my eyes at the spokesperson for the police force talking about how they believe they did their best-of course they do! God forbid they ever have to admit they'd done something wrong. I've seen many examples of interrogations that played out exactly the way Kevin claimed his did, so I have no problem believing his version of events is accurate. The fact the police even acknowledge that some of what he claimed they said and did is what they said and did just further backs him up.

And of course those officers got to remain on the force and continue to have long careers to boot. Ugh. This is just another example of how much reform is needed in handling investigations, and holding police officers and other investigators accountable for this kind of horrific misconduct. And cases like this also prove yet again why I am firmly against the death penalty. This father was thisclose to going to death row for a crime he did not commit. And there's so many other cases very similar to this one out there as well. That's terrifying. 

On 5/9/2021 at 12:17 AM, CrystalBlue said:

Psycho Rapist had evil in his heart (if he even has one other than crying for himself) and is using the excuse that it was just supposed to be a simple burglary but there nothing of value, so I took the most valuable thing they had.  Thing.  Not child, human being, little girl.  He just wants to appear more pathetic for sympathy and blame the victim(s) (who were the parents).  How do you go from stealing something of value to sexual assault of a baby and then snuff that life out unless you're evil? 

Exactly. He knew full well what he was doing. Add in the fact he'd already been in trouble for a sexual assault of a family member and that just further proves that there's a history there, a pattern of disturbing behavior. Which is another thing that none of the original investigators on this case ever seemed to check into. People who commit these kinds of crimes against children usually have some kind of history of similar assaults, or reports of creepy behavior, or things of that sort. But there was no indication that they ever looked at Kevin's past in that regard (I too thought the idea of a father accidentally killing their child and then trying to cover it up by passing it off as a sexual assault was an absurd theory), nor did they seem to look at potential sex offenders living in the area, or things of that sort. This was the definition of tunnel vision. 

I liked how the one guy described Eby's confession: "I don't know that I've ever seen a horror movie as excruciatingly evil as his confession was." Yep. That pretty much sums it up. So chilling. 

I'm sadly not too surprised that Riley's parents' marriage didn't survive this awful trauma, but I do appreciate the way everyone in the family, including Kevin's wife, stood by him and supported him through all of this. And I'm glad they're both in better places in their lives now, with their respective families, and still have a good relationship with each other. I wish them all well going forward. 

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"Taken" -In all my years of watching Dateline and 20/20, this is possibly the most unbelievable case, from start to finish, that I've ever seen. I can't believe I never heard of it before. 

At the start of the story, I figured it had to be the ex-girlfriend setting it all up to get revenge for being dumped. Not that that seemed likely, but nothing else made sense. 

But honestly, I understand why the police didn't believe them. Their story was... unbelievable. It was like something straight from a bad movie. Yes, the police made huge errors, and should have had much more impartial minds, but the story was just so ridiculous. 

It probably didn't help that the two victims are both such under-reactors, especially Denise. If you watch them closely in interview, their body language is very believable. You'll often see Denise looking very stoic, but you can see tears or other signs she's barely keeping it together. I don't recall ever seeing this in any of our guilty perpetrators trying to "perform" being innocent. But I guess the police weren't interested in body language at all. They picked a theory and stuck to it. 

Adding to the unreality of this story was the storybook happy ending. It was very satisfying, to the point it was like someone wrote it. I'm happy for them though. 

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7 hours ago, Melina22 said:

But honestly, I understand why the police didn't believe them. Their story was... unbelievable. It was like something straight from a bad movie. Yes, the police made huge errors, and should have had much more impartial minds, but the story was just so ridiculous.

The story might have been ridiculous, but the police didn't really put in any effort to investigate it. Law enforcement ignored every bit of evidence that contradicted their theory of the case. If it that theory can't withstand a little bit of scrutiny, then maybe there's little to no reason to believe it. They put the phone on airplane mode, refused to perform a rape examination, and they seemingly never investigated where the calls from the kidnapper were coming from. If the kidnapping had been fake and they'd done their due diligence, the police would probably still be on 20/20 or Dateline. Except they'd be talking about this case where 2 nutjobs tried create their own version of Gone Girl. This just highlighted police laziness.

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This was a real head scratcher.  It seemed so ridiculous and unbelievable that it couldn’t possibly be true.  However, on the one hand, why make up a story like this as there seemed to be little if anything to gain other than 15 minutes of probably unwanted fame.  On the other hand, what did the kidnappers have to gain either aside from some cheap thrills?  I thought the couple came off as sincere and believable during their interviews, but there were a few things that weren’t touched on that left me puzzled.  Since Aaron was ziptied initially, did the kidnappers cut him loose so he could make contact with work the next morning, and if so, why did he say he removed his goggles by rubbing against the couch, and how then did he remove the zipties?  Also, at some point, he mentioned his ankles being duct taped, not ziptied.  Then we have Denise saying she had to be raped more than once because her captors didn’t feel the first video looked consensual.  Was she not blindfolded and restrained?  How does one make sex look consensual under those circumstances unless it was supposed to be consensual BDSM?  There were so many questions, I honestly didn’t know what to think at first. 

In the end, they obviously caught the guy and were able to connect him to crime.  It’s still hard to understand what he had to gain and why he said he acted alone when Aaron and Denise said that wasn’t the case.  How did he know the layout of the home, and seemed to know where Denise’s parents lived?  This case was both fascinating and horrifying.  I think I may want to go back and rewatch parts of it. 

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3 hours ago, Fable said:

In the end, they obviously caught the guy and were able to connect him to crime.  It’s still hard to understand what he had to gain and why he said he acted alone when Aaron and Denise said that wasn’t the case.  How did he know the layout of the home, and seemed to know where Denise’s parents lived?  This case was both fascinating and horrifying. 

I was surprised that the case wasn't settled for far more than $2.5million because after attorney fees and taxes are deducted I'm not sure there will be much money left for their future.  I guess that was part of the reason for writing the book.

It's reasonable to conclude that in time the couple will heal (hopefully, Aaron as he was less victimized than Denise --if there is even a scale to measure such things) and perhaps return to the work force to earn a decent living; however, with the scars of their ordeal likely to last for a lifetime it would have been reasonable to have them financially taken care of for life. I believe that because both of them are ALIVE, the settlement was less than it probably would have been if that were not the case but that doesn't make it right.  

 

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How have I never heard that story before? That was possibly the most infuriating episode of 20/20 I’ve ever seen. Aaron and Denise deserve so much more than that settlement, including very public apologies for the offensively bad work done by the police department and FBI, and the almost unbelievable level of slander delivered by Kenny Park and the rest of the Vallejo police department. Unreal. Glad they seem to be okay now and they’ve had a lot of therapy. Jeez, I still cannot believe that this poor woman who is a sexual molestation survivor and had to deal with that sort of very public treatment after being kidnapped, drugged, and raped multiple times. WTF? I’m steaming from them not authorizing a rape exam for her right away and having the audacity to tell her attorney that she shouldn’t shower if she’s so concerned. People suck.

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46 minutes ago, rlc said:

I’m steaming from them not authorizing a rape exam for her right away and having the audacity to tell her attorney that she shouldn’t shower if she’s so concerned.

I was thinking when that outrage was revealed that the case should be approaching $20 million in a settlement because of the INTENTIONAL and VICIOUS level of slander and psychological and physical abuse perpetrated against Denise (and Aaron) by law enforcement agencies in Vallejo! 

Personally, I don't think there is enough money in the world to even come close to compensating Aaron or Denise for their pain and suffering that will surely be with them for the rest of their lives. 

I wonder WHY that settlement was so paltry.  It's almost like another slap in the face for the couple.  Not understanding how their lawyers settled for $2.5 million.  Maybe someone here can explain.

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41 minutes ago, pdlinda said:

I was thinking when that outrage was revealed that the case should be approaching $20 million in a settlement because of the INTENTIONAL and VICIOUS level of slander and psychological and physical abuse perpetrated against Denise (and Aaron) by law enforcement agencies in Vallejo! 

Personally, I don't think there is enough money in the world to even come close to compensating Aaron or Denise for their pain and suffering that will surely be with them for the rest of their lives. 

I wonder WHY that settlement was so paltry.  It's almost like another slap in the face for the couple.  Not understanding how their lawyers settled for $2.5 million.  Maybe someone here can explain.

I can’t comment on amounts, but imagine the fact that they turned off the phone and missed the opportunity to rescue her sooner!

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Why did the kidnappers think it was the ex girlfriend and was she the true target? And if they had planned it being the ex girlfriend, how did they know Denise's childhood home?

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1 hour ago, GussieK said:

I can’t comment on amounts, but imagine the fact that they turned off the phone and missed the opportunity to rescue her sooner!

Oh, wait.  They didn’t rescue her. 

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7 hours ago, Blissfool said:

Why did the kidnappers think it was the ex girlfriend and was she the true target? And if they had planned it being the ex girlfriend, how did they know Denise's childhood home?

I wonder about this as well. They also didn’t say whether the kidnappers actually got into their bank accounts. It seems odd that they would know about the ex girlfriend or where Denise’s parents lived unless the guy knew them personally. Unless he somehow got the information from their computer. To me there are still unanswered questions here, but I believe it happened.

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6 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

I wonder about this as well. They also didn’t say whether the kidnappers actually got into their bank accounts. It seems odd that they would know about the ex girlfriend or where Denise’s parents lived unless the guy knew them personally. Unless he somehow got the information from their computer. To me there are still unanswered questions here, but I believe it happened.

Notice that posters are always using "plurals" when describing the crime.  The diabolical mastermind from Harvard Law who was prosecuted and convicted of the Vallejo crimes spoke about co-conspirators according to Denise; however, apparently no other people have been charged.  Who knows where the Solano County crimes are now in the charging process? I know there must be a statute of limitations that will eventually toll and wonder where those cases stand regarding investigation??

Every feature of these cases exemplifies the travesty of justice that occurs when the prosecutorial agencies we depend upon to get the "bad guys (gals) screech to an almost grinding halt in pursuing truth and justice for victims!!

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The couple in this case was on The View today promoting their book.

I had heard about this case before.  I must have heard it on the news when it was ongoing. I am not sure if any of the other shows have covered it.  

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On 6/5/2021 at 2:36 PM, HunterHunted said:

The story might have been ridiculous, but the police didn't really put in any effort to investigate it. Law enforcement ignored every bit of evidence that contradicted their theory of the case. If it that theory can't withstand a little bit of scrutiny, then maybe there's little to no reason to believe it. They put the phone on airplane mode, refused to perform a rape examination, and they seemingly never investigated where the calls from the kidnapper were coming from. If the kidnapping had been fake and they'd done their due diligence, the police would probably still be on 20/20 or Dateline. Except they'd be talking about this case where 2 nutjobs tried create their own version of Gone Girl. This just highlighted police laziness.

Yeah, it was pretty awful how they handled this - from the lack of investigating, to the public put down press conferences basically stating they were liars.  Just couldn't believe they didn't do more.  It really bit them in the end, you can't blame the couple for filing a lawsuit after they were so publicly defamed.  I am amazed after all that trauma they were able to stay together and start a family, most people wouldn't make it through something like that.  I was so glad this one ultimately had a happy ending. 

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On 6/6/2021 at 10:06 PM, rlc said:

How have I never heard that story before? That was possibly the most infuriating episode of 20/20 I’ve ever seen. Aaron and Denise deserve so much more than that settlement, including very public apologies for the offensively bad work done by the police department and FBI, and the almost unbelievable level of slander delivered by Kenny Park and the rest of the Vallejo police department. Unreal. Glad they seem to be okay now and they’ve had a lot of therapy. Jeez, I still cannot believe that this poor woman who is a sexual molestation survivor and had to deal with that sort of very public treatment after being kidnapped, drugged, and raped multiple times. WTF? I’m steaming from them not authorizing a rape exam for her right away and having the audacity to tell her attorney that she shouldn’t shower if she’s so concerned. People suck.

It was extremely infuriating!  I can't imagine trying to tell someone your truth and repeatedly being told your a liar.  

On 6/7/2021 at 7:51 AM, Madding crowd said:

I wonder about this as well. They also didn’t say whether the kidnappers actually got into their bank accounts. It seems odd that they would know about the ex girlfriend or where Denise’s parents lived unless the guy knew them personally. Unless he somehow got the information from their computer. To me there are still unanswered questions here, but I believe it happened.

I'm still not convinced that the Ex didn't have some part in this.  The kidnapper(s) knew too much about these people. 

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My big WTF was when that other police department was investigating the attack on that couple 2 months later, which let to finding the huge stock pile of kidnap gear with the goggles and laser "gun" and crap. The one female investigator said she had to do all this research and digging before she came upon the Vallejo case and its similarities to their case. Really?! The Gone Girl case was a HUGE story. The details were all over the news and tabloids and Inside Edition every freaking day for many weeks. No one in that other police department knew about it?! 

Also, I freeze framed the letter the perp wrote to the newspaper. He went on and on about how terrible he felt, what a piece of shit he had become, and how he never really wanted to hurt anybody. ...only to attack the other couple 2 months later. He better get the max sentence. 

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Last night episode was too long. 1 hour would have been enough.

 

I am certain Aaron sexually assaulted Vanessa before he killed her.

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Notorious. Such an interesting doc about Ghislaine Maxwell. After watching it, I find it impossible to believe she's innocent, despite her claims. One witness might be lying, but not so many, especially when there are so many similarities in their stories. I don't blame her family for believing she's innocent, especially given her charm, but I think she's almost certainly guilty. 

That said, I'm horrified that she or any of the other prisoners are subjected to solitary confinement in tiny, cockroach and rat infested cells, with lights in their face all night long. That's torture, pure and simple, and has no place in a decent society. I literally wouldn't let my dog spend a night there. 

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I do not believe she is innocent. What she did is sickening.  However,  I got an incest vibe between her and her father, somehow.  

The only part of the documentary I did not like was the music that played during the whole thing.

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10 minutes ago, howiveaddict said:

However,  I got an incest vibe between her and her father, somehow.  

That was definitely an unhealthy relationship, for sure. He sounds like he was a horrible person. 

Did they ever figure out who embezzled all the pension money? 

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23 hours ago, Melina22 said:

That was definitely an unhealthy relationship, for sure. He sounds like he was a horrible person. 

Did they ever figure out who embezzled all the pension money? 

IDK. I thought it was her dad.  Why would he kill his self otherwise?

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On 6/27/2021 at 11:49 AM, Melina22 said:

That said, I'm horrified that she or any of the other prisoners are subjected to solitary confinement in tiny, cockroach and rat infested cells, with lights in their face all night long. That's torture, pure and simple, and has no place in a decent society. I literally wouldn't let my dog spend a night there. 

Speaking from the perspective of working on the defense side of the criminal justice system for YEARS (now retired) I'm wondering why her lawyer (high priced as I'm sure he is) has not filed for an expedited hearing before the Court to have her conditions brought to the attention of the Judge and whatever the equivalent is in NYC to the Correctional Health Services Unit we have here in my State. (Hopefully, he has filed and it just wasn't revealed on the show).

We had those hearings for any cases where an obvious violation of the defendant's basic human rights and basic health (including mental health) conditions were being violated.  I can't recall even one of those hearings that we lost.  Further, we always followed up with the defendant to make sure that the conditions that the Court ordered were implemented.

Our position was that the legal side of the case(s) required the defendant's complete ability to assist in his/her defense and with the conditions described in this case it's clear that her level of functioning has likely deteriorated  to the point where it might be harming her participation with her defense team.

That said, regarding the light being shined in her cell on an ongoing and continuing basis (horrible situation) I'm not sure that will ever be able to be removed because of what happened to epstein; however, they can make some type of creative accommodation to try and alleviate the harshness of the situation.  From my experience, this practice is followed in all the prisons I visited and the inmates always had "work-arounds" to cope with the intrusion.  The fact that she's a first-time offender AND in solitary confinement denies her the ability to get these "tips" from other more seasoned inmates in "General Population."

My remarks have NOTHING to do with the seriousness of he crimes she's alleged to have committed or the sentence she will receive if convicted.  It's just a comment on her rights as a defendant to participate in her defense to the fullest extent the law allows.

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1 hour ago, howiveaddict said:

IDK. I thought it was her dad.  Why would he kill his self otherwise?

It may have been him. It wasn't stated in the show though. Just that her brother was investigated and found innocent of it. I don't know if it was proven Robert Maxwell killed himself. He may have just fallen, maybe after a heart attack. It seems unlikely he was murdered. 

 

24 minutes ago, pdlinda said:

My remarks have NOTHING to do with the seriousness of he crimes she's alleged to have committed or the sentence she will receive if convicted.  It's just a comment on her rights as a defendant to participate in her defense to the fullest extent the law allows.

Thank you for your extremely informative answer. You have insights most of us here don't have. 

The general impression I thought the show gave is that they're trying to use her as a substitute for Epstein, and are terrified of the flak they'd get if they were even slightly lenient with her. (I'm not even certain who "they" is.) 

Not having your expertise, I was shocked that someone that wealthy and well represented couldn't get better conditions, as well as horrified that prisons in a first world country were doing this to anyone. I'm happy to hear there's at least some kind of recourse.It's sad that it's necessary though. I have so many thoughts about the prison system, but this isn't the place to express them. 

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I thought this piece was done quite well.  I always wondered what she was doing with Epstein.  I wish there were more who could share what they really had together.....I still don’t think that it’s  been uncovered.  
 

I also wondered about her current husband!  When did she find and marry a new man? A true romance or a business proposition?  
 

I question her jail complaints.  If there were a rat in my room......😱 I can’t even go there......

She seems to lie easily based on her blatant lies during her deposition, but she doesn’t appear to be good at it.  I’m not sure why so many believed her during her reign.  I don’t see the big deal of making her a scape goat. So what...she deserves it, if she did those things.  And there appears to be plenty of evidence against her.  
 

The biggest surprise for me was that everyone who appeared of the show managed to pronounce Ghislaine a DIFFERENT way. 😝

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I was bewildered by her brother who is certain the charges against her are rubbish, cuz he knows her so well and it's not in her character. ...She did not even tell you she was MARRIED! And you've seen her once in years! Could it possibly be that she has kept some things from you???

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Yeah, the brother obviously doesn’t know his sister well, but no one seems to.  Did she really have close friends?  I guess they are hiding, scared or embarrassed to admit it.  

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