20/20 - General Discussion

[iwantcookies]

7 hours ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

If it's the same network as Shark Tank, they're showing NHL hockey games. 

Yes ABC

[Annber03]

Caught up a bit and watched the Riley Fox story. I seem to remember this being covered on some other show, but it'd been some time, I couldn't recall all the details. 

Such an utterly, utterly heartbreaking case. That poor little girl. That poor family..

On 5/8/2021 at 12:36 PM, Madding crowd said:

I cried at how they questioned the little boy and again when the murderer said she cried for her daddy.

Same. Tyler covering his head with the hoodie because he was so uncomfortable with all the questions about his dad was just...damn. Poor kid. I really appreciated the interviews with the woman who explained how badly that child interview with Tyler was handled, as well as the woman who explained how so many police interrogation tactics lend themselves well to false confessions.

On 5/8/2021 at 2:17 PM, BusyOctober said:

That district attorney who lead the persecution of Kevin should be ashamed of himself.

He sure skedaddled away pretty damn fast when the ABC news crew showed up to ask him about the case, didn't he? I hate it in cases like this where politics enters the picture and law enforcement are so desperate to convict someone, not because the victims/their loved ones and the town deserves answers and safety and justice, but rather because they need to look good for an upcoming election. 

I also rolled my eyes at the spokesperson for the police force talking about how they believe they did their best-of course they do! God forbid they ever have to admit they'd done something wrong. I've seen many examples of interrogations that played out exactly the way Kevin claimed his did, so I have no problem believing his version of events is accurate. The fact the police even acknowledge that some of what he claimed they said and did is what they said and did just further backs him up.

And of course those officers got to remain on the force and continue to have long careers to boot. Ugh. This is just another example of how much reform is needed in handling investigations, and holding police officers and other investigators accountable for this kind of horrific misconduct. And cases like this also prove yet again why I am firmly against the death penalty. This father was thisclose to going to death row for a crime he did not commit. And there's so many other cases very similar to this one out there as well. That's terrifying. 

On 5/9/2021 at 12:17 AM, CrystalBlue said:

Psycho Rapist had evil in his heart (if he even has one other than crying for himself) and is using the excuse that it was just supposed to be a simple burglary but there nothing of value, so I took the most valuable thing they had.  Thing.  Not child, human being, little girl.  He just wants to appear more pathetic for sympathy and blame the victim(s) (who were the parents).  How do you go from stealing something of value to sexual assault of a baby and then snuff that life out unless you're evil? 

Exactly. He knew full well what he was doing. Add in the fact he'd already been in trouble for a sexual assault of a family member and that just further proves that there's a history there, a pattern of disturbing behavior. Which is another thing that none of the original investigators on this case ever seemed to check into. People who commit these kinds of crimes against children usually have some kind of history of similar assaults, or reports of creepy behavior, or things of that sort. But there was no indication that they ever looked at Kevin's past in that regard (I too thought the idea of a father accidentally killing their child and then trying to cover it up by passing it off as a sexual assault was an absurd theory), nor did they seem to look at potential sex offenders living in the area, or things of that sort. This was the definition of tunnel vision. 

I liked how the one guy described Eby's confession: "I don't know that I've ever seen a horror movie as excruciatingly evil as his confession was." Yep. That pretty much sums it up. So chilling. 

I'm sadly not too surprised that Riley's parents' marriage didn't survive this awful trauma, but I do appreciate the way everyone in the family, including Kevin's wife, stood by him and supported him through all of this. And I'm glad they're both in better places in their lives now, with their respective families, and still have a good relationship with each other. I wish them all well going forward. 

Edited June 1, 2021 by Annber03

[Melina22]

"Taken" -In all my years of watching Dateline and 20/20, this is possibly the most unbelievable case, from start to finish, that I've ever seen. I can't believe I never heard of it before. 

At the start of the story, I figured it had to be the ex-girlfriend setting it all up to get revenge for being dumped. Not that that seemed likely, but nothing else made sense. 

But honestly, I understand why the police didn't believe them. Their story was... unbelievable. It was like something straight from a bad movie. Yes, the police made huge errors, and should have had much more impartial minds, but the story was just so ridiculous. 

It probably didn't help that the two victims are both such under-reactors, especially Denise. If you watch them closely in interview, their body language is very believable. You'll often see Denise looking very stoic, but you can see tears or other signs she's barely keeping it together. I don't recall ever seeing this in any of our guilty perpetrators trying to "perform" being innocent. But I guess the police weren't interested in body language at all. They picked a theory and stuck to it. 

Adding to the unreality of this story was the storybook happy ending. It was very satisfying, to the point it was like someone wrote it. I'm happy for them though. 

[HunterHunted]

7 hours ago, Melina22 said:

But honestly, I understand why the police didn't believe them. Their story was... unbelievable. It was like something straight from a bad movie. Yes, the police made huge errors, and should have had much more impartial minds, but the story was just so ridiculous.

The story might have been ridiculous, but the police didn't really put in any effort to investigate it. Law enforcement ignored every bit of evidence that contradicted their theory of the case. If it that theory can't withstand a little bit of scrutiny, then maybe there's little to no reason to believe it. They put the phone on airplane mode, refused to perform a rape examination, and they seemingly never investigated where the calls from the kidnapper were coming from. If the kidnapping had been fake and they'd done their due diligence, the police would probably still be on 20/20 or Dateline. Except they'd be talking about this case where 2 nutjobs tried create their own version of Gone Girl. This just highlighted police laziness.

[Fable]

This was a real head scratcher.  It seemed so ridiculous and unbelievable that it couldn’t possibly be true.  However, on the one hand, why make up a story like this as there seemed to be little if anything to gain other than 15 minutes of probably unwanted fame.  On the other hand, what did the kidnappers have to gain either aside from some cheap thrills?  I thought the couple came off as sincere and believable during their interviews, but there were a few things that weren’t touched on that left me puzzled.  Since Aaron was ziptied initially, did the kidnappers cut him loose so he could make contact with work the next morning, and if so, why did he say he removed his goggles by rubbing against the couch, and how then did he remove the zipties?  Also, at some point, he mentioned his ankles being duct taped, not ziptied.  Then we have Denise saying she had to be raped more than once because her captors didn’t feel the first video looked consensual.  Was she not blindfolded and restrained?  How does one make sex look consensual under those circumstances unless it was supposed to be consensual BDSM?  There were so many questions, I honestly didn’t know what to think at first. 

In the end, they obviously caught the guy and were able to connect him to crime.  It’s still hard to understand what he had to gain and why he said he acted alone when Aaron and Denise said that wasn’t the case.  How did he know the layout of the home, and seemed to know where Denise’s parents lived?  This case was both fascinating and horrifying.  I think I may want to go back and rewatch parts of it. 

[pdlinda]

3 hours ago, Fable said:

In the end, they obviously caught the guy and were able to connect him to crime.  It’s still hard to understand what he had to gain and why he said he acted alone when Aaron and Denise said that wasn’t the case.  How did he know the layout of the home, and seemed to know where Denise’s parents lived?  This case was both fascinating and horrifying. 

I was surprised that the case wasn't settled for far more than $2.5million because after attorney fees and taxes are deducted I'm not sure there will be much money left for their future.  I guess that was part of the reason for writing the book.

It's reasonable to conclude that in time the couple will heal (hopefully, Aaron as he was less victimized than Denise --if there is even a scale to measure such things) and perhaps return to the work force to earn a decent living; however, with the scars of their ordeal likely to last for a lifetime it would have been reasonable to have them financially taken care of for life. I believe that because both of them are ALIVE, the settlement was less than it probably would have been if that were not the case but that doesn't make it right.  

 

[rlc]

How have I never heard that story before? That was possibly the most infuriating episode of 20/20 I’ve ever seen. Aaron and Denise deserve so much more than that settlement, including very public apologies for the offensively bad work done by the police department and FBI, and the almost unbelievable level of slander delivered by Kenny Park and the rest of the Vallejo police department. Unreal. Glad they seem to be okay now and they’ve had a lot of therapy. Jeez, I still cannot believe that this poor woman who is a sexual molestation survivor and had to deal with that sort of very public treatment after being kidnapped, drugged, and raped multiple times. WTF? I’m steaming from them not authorizing a rape exam for her right away and having the audacity to tell her attorney that she shouldn’t shower if she’s so concerned. People suck.

[pdlinda]

46 minutes ago, rlc said:

I’m steaming from them not authorizing a rape exam for her right away and having the audacity to tell her attorney that she shouldn’t shower if she’s so concerned.

I was thinking when that outrage was revealed that the case should be approaching $20 million in a settlement because of the INTENTIONAL and VICIOUS level of slander and psychological and physical abuse perpetrated against Denise (and Aaron) by law enforcement agencies in Vallejo! 

Personally, I don't think there is enough money in the world to even come close to compensating Aaron or Denise for their pain and suffering that will surely be with them for the rest of their lives. 

I wonder WHY that settlement was so paltry.  It's almost like another slap in the face for the couple.  Not understanding how their lawyers settled for $2.5 million.  Maybe someone here can explain.

[EtheltoTillie]

41 minutes ago, pdlinda said:

I was thinking when that outrage was revealed that the case should be approaching $20 million in a settlement because of the INTENTIONAL and VICIOUS level of slander and psychological and physical abuse perpetrated against Denise (and Aaron) by law enforcement agencies in Vallejo! 

Personally, I don't think there is enough money in the world to even come close to compensating Aaron or Denise for their pain and suffering that will surely be with them for the rest of their lives. 

I wonder WHY that settlement was so paltry.  It's almost like another slap in the face for the couple.  Not understanding how their lawyers settled for $2.5 million.  Maybe someone here can explain.

I can’t comment on amounts, but imagine the fact that they turned off the phone and missed the opportunity to rescue her sooner!

[Blissfool]

Why did the kidnappers think it was the ex girlfriend and was she the true target? And if they had planned it being the ex girlfriend, how did they know Denise's childhood home?

[EtheltoTillie]

1 hour ago, GussieK said:

I can’t comment on amounts, but imagine the fact that they turned off the phone and missed the opportunity to rescue her sooner!

Oh, wait.  They didn’t rescue her. 

[Madding crowd]

7 hours ago, Blissfool said:

Why did the kidnappers think it was the ex girlfriend and was she the true target? And if they had planned it being the ex girlfriend, how did they know Denise's childhood home?

I wonder about this as well. They also didn’t say whether the kidnappers actually got into their bank accounts. It seems odd that they would know about the ex girlfriend or where Denise’s parents lived unless the guy knew them personally. Unless he somehow got the information from their computer. To me there are still unanswered questions here, but I believe it happened.

[pdlinda]

6 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

I wonder about this as well. They also didn’t say whether the kidnappers actually got into their bank accounts. It seems odd that they would know about the ex girlfriend or where Denise’s parents lived unless the guy knew them personally. Unless he somehow got the information from their computer. To me there are still unanswered questions here, but I believe it happened.

Notice that posters are always using "plurals" when describing the crime.  The diabolical mastermind from Harvard Law who was prosecuted and convicted of the Vallejo crimes spoke about co-conspirators according to Denise; however, apparently no other people have been charged.  Who knows where the Solano County crimes are now in the charging process? I know there must be a statute of limitations that will eventually toll and wonder where those cases stand regarding investigation??

Every feature of these cases exemplifies the travesty of justice that occurs when the prosecutorial agencies we depend upon to get the "bad guys (gals) screech to an almost grinding halt in pursuing truth and justice for victims!!

[LakeGal]

The couple in this case was on The View today promoting their book.

I had heard about this case before.  I must have heard it on the news when it was ongoing. I am not sure if any of the other shows have covered it.  

[klh25]

On 6/5/2021 at 2:36 PM, HunterHunted said:

The story might have been ridiculous, but the police didn't really put in any effort to investigate it. Law enforcement ignored every bit of evidence that contradicted their theory of the case. If it that theory can't withstand a little bit of scrutiny, then maybe there's little to no reason to believe it. They put the phone on airplane mode, refused to perform a rape examination, and they seemingly never investigated where the calls from the kidnapper were coming from. If the kidnapping had been fake and they'd done their due diligence, the police would probably still be on 20/20 or Dateline. Except they'd be talking about this case where 2 nutjobs tried create their own version of Gone Girl. This just highlighted police laziness.

Yeah, it was pretty awful how they handled this - from the lack of investigating, to the public put down press conferences basically stating they were liars.  Just couldn't believe they didn't do more.  It really bit them in the end, you can't blame the couple for filing a lawsuit after they were so publicly defamed.  I am amazed after all that trauma they were able to stay together and start a family, most people wouldn't make it through something like that.  I was so glad this one ultimately had a happy ending. 

[klh25]

On 6/6/2021 at 10:06 PM, rlc said:

How have I never heard that story before? That was possibly the most infuriating episode of 20/20 I’ve ever seen. Aaron and Denise deserve so much more than that settlement, including very public apologies for the offensively bad work done by the police department and FBI, and the almost unbelievable level of slander delivered by Kenny Park and the rest of the Vallejo police department. Unreal. Glad they seem to be okay now and they’ve had a lot of therapy. Jeez, I still cannot believe that this poor woman who is a sexual molestation survivor and had to deal with that sort of very public treatment after being kidnapped, drugged, and raped multiple times. WTF? I’m steaming from them not authorizing a rape exam for her right away and having the audacity to tell her attorney that she shouldn’t shower if she’s so concerned. People suck.

It was extremely infuriating!  I can't imagine trying to tell someone your truth and repeatedly being told your a liar.  

On 6/7/2021 at 7:51 AM, Madding crowd said:

I wonder about this as well. They also didn’t say whether the kidnappers actually got into their bank accounts. It seems odd that they would know about the ex girlfriend or where Denise’s parents lived unless the guy knew them personally. Unless he somehow got the information from their computer. To me there are still unanswered questions here, but I believe it happened.

I'm still not convinced that the Ex didn't have some part in this.  The kidnapper(s) knew too much about these people. 

[TVbitch]

My big WTF was when that other police department was investigating the attack on that couple 2 months later, which let to finding the huge stock pile of kidnap gear with the goggles and laser "gun" and crap. The one female investigator said she had to do all this research and digging before she came upon the Vallejo case and its similarities to their case. Really?! The Gone Girl case was a HUGE story. The details were all over the news and tabloids and Inside Edition every freaking day for many weeks. No one in that other police department knew about it?! 

Also, I freeze framed the letter the perp wrote to the newspaper. He went on and on about how terrible he felt, what a piece of shit he had become, and how he never really wanted to hurt anybody. ...only to attack the other couple 2 months later. He better get the max sentence. 

[iwantcookies]

Last night episode was too long. 1 hour would have been enough.

 

I am certain Aaron sexually assaulted Vanessa before he killed her.

[Melina22]

Notorious. Such an interesting doc about Ghislaine Maxwell. After watching it, I find it impossible to believe she's innocent, despite her claims. One witness might be lying, but not so many, especially when there are so many similarities in their stories. I don't blame her family for believing she's innocent, especially given her charm, but I think she's almost certainly guilty. 

That said, I'm horrified that she or any of the other prisoners are subjected to solitary confinement in tiny, cockroach and rat infested cells, with lights in their face all night long. That's torture, pure and simple, and has no place in a decent society. I literally wouldn't let my dog spend a night there. 

Edited June 27, 2021 by Melina22

[howiveaddict]

I do not believe she is innocent. What she did is sickening.  However,  I got an incest vibe between her and her father, somehow.  

The only part of the documentary I did not like was the music that played during the whole thing.

[Melina22]

10 minutes ago, howiveaddict said:

However,  I got an incest vibe between her and her father, somehow.  

That was definitely an unhealthy relationship, for sure. He sounds like he was a horrible person. 

Did they ever figure out who embezzled all the pension money? 

[howiveaddict]

23 hours ago, Melina22 said:

That was definitely an unhealthy relationship, for sure. He sounds like he was a horrible person. 

Did they ever figure out who embezzled all the pension money? 

IDK. I thought it was her dad.  Why would he kill his self otherwise?

[pdlinda]

On 6/27/2021 at 11:49 AM, Melina22 said:

That said, I'm horrified that she or any of the other prisoners are subjected to solitary confinement in tiny, cockroach and rat infested cells, with lights in their face all night long. That's torture, pure and simple, and has no place in a decent society. I literally wouldn't let my dog spend a night there. 

Speaking from the perspective of working on the defense side of the criminal justice system for YEARS (now retired) I'm wondering why her lawyer (high priced as I'm sure he is) has not filed for an expedited hearing before the Court to have her conditions brought to the attention of the Judge and whatever the equivalent is in NYC to the Correctional Health Services Unit we have here in my State. (Hopefully, he has filed and it just wasn't revealed on the show).

We had those hearings for any cases where an obvious violation of the defendant's basic human rights and basic health (including mental health) conditions were being violated.  I can't recall even one of those hearings that we lost.  Further, we always followed up with the defendant to make sure that the conditions that the Court ordered were implemented.

Our position was that the legal side of the case(s) required the defendant's complete ability to assist in his/her defense and with the conditions described in this case it's clear that her level of functioning has likely deteriorated  to the point where it might be harming her participation with her defense team.

That said, regarding the light being shined in her cell on an ongoing and continuing basis (horrible situation) I'm not sure that will ever be able to be removed because of what happened to epstein; however, they can make some type of creative accommodation to try and alleviate the harshness of the situation.  From my experience, this practice is followed in all the prisons I visited and the inmates always had "work-arounds" to cope with the intrusion.  The fact that she's a first-time offender AND in solitary confinement denies her the ability to get these "tips" from other more seasoned inmates in "General Population."

My remarks have NOTHING to do with the seriousness of he crimes she's alleged to have committed or the sentence she will receive if convicted.  It's just a comment on her rights as a defendant to participate in her defense to the fullest extent the law allows.

[Melina22]

1 hour ago, howiveaddict said:

IDK. I thought it was her dad.  Why would he kill his self otherwise?

It may have been him. It wasn't stated in the show though. Just that her brother was investigated and found innocent of it. I don't know if it was proven Robert Maxwell killed himself. He may have just fallen, maybe after a heart attack. It seems unlikely he was murdered. 

 

24 minutes ago, pdlinda said:

My remarks have NOTHING to do with the seriousness of he crimes she's alleged to have committed or the sentence she will receive if convicted.  It's just a comment on her rights as a defendant to participate in her defense to the fullest extent the law allows.

Thank you for your extremely informative answer. You have insights most of us here don't have. 

The general impression I thought the show gave is that they're trying to use her as a substitute for Epstein, and are terrified of the flak they'd get if they were even slightly lenient with her. (I'm not even certain who "they" is.) 

Not having your expertise, I was shocked that someone that wealthy and well represented couldn't get better conditions, as well as horrified that prisons in a first world country were doing this to anyone. I'm happy to hear there's at least some kind of recourse.It's sad that it's necessary though. I have so many thoughts about the prison system, but this isn't the place to express them. 

[SunnyBeBe]

I thought this piece was done quite well.  I always wondered what she was doing with Epstein.  I wish there were more who could share what they really had together.....I still don’t think that it’s  been uncovered.  
 

I also wondered about her current husband!  When did she find and marry a new man? A true romance or a business proposition?  
 

I question her jail complaints.  If there were a rat in my room......😱 I can’t even go there......

She seems to lie easily based on her blatant lies during her deposition, but she doesn’t appear to be good at it.  I’m not sure why so many believed her during her reign.  I don’t see the big deal of making her a scape goat. So what...she deserves it, if she did those things.  And there appears to be plenty of evidence against her.  
 

The biggest surprise for me was that everyone who appeared of the show managed to pronounce Ghislaine a DIFFERENT way. 😝

Edited June 29, 2021 by SunnyBeBe

[TVbitch]

I was bewildered by her brother who is certain the charges against her are rubbish, cuz he knows her so well and it's not in her character. ...She did not even tell you she was MARRIED! And you've seen her once in years! Could it possibly be that she has kept some things from you???

[SunnyBeBe]

Yeah, the brother obviously doesn’t know his sister well, but no one seems to.  Did she really have close friends?  I guess they are hiding, scared or embarrassed to admit it.  

[bmasters9]

Finally, recently, saw (for the first time in a long time) the formerly long-lost 1989-90 20/20 opening (long-lost opening from that ABC newsmagazine), from the broadcast of Fri. Jan. 5, 1990 as uploaded by "pannoni 8".  

First, the ABC News logo passes diagonally, top right to bottom left, across a piece of reflective material. This material then solidifies itself into what appears to be the bottom of one of the 20s in the title. As it does, it reveals itself to be a 20 figure (the right-hand portion of the title). This 20 figure moves out to the right, and the other 20 (left-hand one) comes in. As the 20s zoom out, four pieces of reflective material come in behind them and come together to make a mirror background for the 20/20 title. Two more pieces come in diagonally from the top and bottom middle of the screen to make the slash between the 20s and complete the title. The completed title has a mirror-like sheen to it.

This all occurs as the late Bob Cruz (ABC News announcer) says, "From ABC News, around the world and into your home, the stories that touch your life...with Hugh Downs and Barbara Walters, this is 20/20."

Speaking of which, this was the first 20/20 opening to have those words in the opening (before, Bob would simply say, "On the ABC News magazine, 20/20, with Hugh Downs and Barbara Walters" [before that, when it was simply Hugh Downs, he would just say "Tonight" after he said the title]).

This was also the first 20/20 opening to have a dateline on its title card (here, Bob said, "Those stories tonight: January 5, 1990").

The main reason why I am saying this is because when I found that this broadcast was uploaded, my heart beat quite quickly, because of the prospects of finally (finally!), after a long dry spell, getting to relive what I saw when I was 8 years old (and believe it or not, this broadcast came two days after my 9th birthday [meaning that my 9th birthday was on a Wednesday in 1990]).

Also, the opening has a tiny video glitch, but even so, that didn't matter to me-- getting to relive this opening for the first time in a while took priority in my mind.

Here is that broadcast:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6Plk-RcJOw

Edited August 28, 2021 by bmasters9

[danderson400]

On 8/24/2021 at 4:30 AM, bmasters9 said:

Finally, recently, saw (for the first time in a long time) the formerly long-lost 1989-90 20/20 opening (long-lost opening from that ABC newsmagazine), from the broadcast of Fri. Jan. 5, 1990 as uploaded by "pannoni 8".  

First, the ABC News logo passes diagonally, top right to bottom left, across a piece of reflective material. This material then solidifies itself into what appears to be the bottom of one of the 20s in the title. As it does, it reveals itself to be a 20 figure (the right-hand portion of the title). This 20 figure moves out to the right, and the other 20 (left-hand one) comes in. As the 20s zoom out, four pieces of reflective material come in behind them and come together to make a mirror background for the 20/20 title. Two more pieces come in diagonally from the top and bottom middle of the screen to make the slash between the 20s and complete the title. The completed title has a mirror-like sheen to it.

This all occurs as the late Bob Cruz (ABC News announcer) says, "From ABC News, around the world and into your home, the stories that touch your life...with Hugh Downs and Barbara Walters, this is 20/20."

Speaking of which, this was the first 20/20 opening to have those words in the opening (before, Bob would simply say, "On the ABC News magazine, 20/20, with Hugh Downs and Barbara Walters" [before that, when it was simply Hugh Downs, he would just say "Tonight" after he said the title]).

This was also the first 20/20 opening to have a dateline on its title card (here, Bob said, "Those stories tonight: January 5, 1990").

The main reason why I am saying this is because when I found that this broadcast was uploaded, my heart beat quite quickly, because of the prospects of finally (finally!), after a long dry spell, getting to relive what I saw when I was 8 years old (and believe it or not, this broadcast came two days after my 9th birthday [meaning that my 9th birthday was on a Wednesday in 1990]).

Also, the opening has a tiny video glitch, but even so, that didn't matter to me-- getting to relive this opening for the first time in a while took priority in my mind.

Here is that broadcast:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6Plk-RcJOw

Didn't realize till now, but Bob Cruz, besides doing "20/20"'s announcing, he also did all the end announces for ABC's sports programming in the 1990s, mostly on "Wide World of Sports" or "Monday Night Football"- "Now stay tuned for your local news and World News (Saturday/Sunday) (or) Nightline, over most of these ABC stations."  Followed by  by the division plug "This has been a presentation of ABC Sports...recognized around the world as the leader in sports television!" 

[Enero]

Did anyone watch the 20/20 special edition hosted by Robin Roberts - The Women Survivors of 9/11?

Good documentary. I don’t recall hearing many stories from women who  survived 9/11. Though I know many did. Absolutely compelling stories. The woman who was in the Pentagon sucking on her “wet” sweater only to learn later it wasn’t wet due to the sprinklers coming on but due to jet fuel from the plane that crashed into the building was horrifying. 

Genelle being under the rubble for 27 hours before being rescued must’ve been terrifying. I can’t help but think how many others were buried alive like her but died before being rescued. What a horrible way to go.

The woman whose lower body was nearly destroyed by injuries she suffered that day, not being able to really leave the house and take a vacation until now, 20 years later, was sad, but inspiring in that she kept fighting. Never giving up. None of them did. 

It was wonderful seeing how these ladies were able to move forward with their lives, despite all the unimaginable struggles. All of them are incredibly strong, amazing women. 

[Melina22]

I've watched several 9/11 shows in the last few days. I think I'll watch that one next. Every story is so riveting. It feels like it happened yesterday. 

[Melina22]

The Sinfluencer. This really interested me because I saw a documentary on Anna Delvey and then bought Rachel's book. Clearly spending 4 years in prison haven't put the slightest dent in Anna's malignant narcissism or complete lack of remorse. Fascinating. 

Anna's face in interviews has that smooth, blank, disingenuous look I'm starting to associate with female sociopaths. No normal adult looks that innocent and unguarded, at least not when being interviewed. 

It's disturbing to see she still has people drinking her Kool-Aid, although some are paid. Not all though. 

I'm glad she had to go to prison, not that it taught her anything, but I don't understand why she got put back in prison after her release because she was all over social media. They didn't explain that. 

I'll be interested to see updates, but I'm 100% certain she won't change. 

[BusyOctober]

Ana is definitely a sociopath.  She will forever be looking for her next mark to take advantage of and do whatever it takes to live in her fantasy world.  She definitely deserved jail time and restitution.

When I first heard of this woman (can’t remember when or where), I was completely on Rachel’s side.  I thought she was taken advantage of and saddled with huge debts due to that trip to Morocco.  I remembered her side of the story as her company made her pay back some of the changes she put on her corporate Amex, plus was held responsible for her own personal credit card.  

But this 20/20 episode dug into Rachel’s story and come to find out, she did not have to pay back most of the charges if any.  I thought she wrote the book to use the money to pay down her credit card bills, but now it sounds like she walked off with whatever she earned from her story. Which is fine; she made money off her experience like millions of others have done.  But she shouldn’t keep presenting her has a victim of financial fraud to the same degree as Bernie Madoff or Tom Girardi’s victims FFS.  Yes, it was frightening to be threatened with prison time in a foreign country, it was upsetting to find out your friend betrayed your friendship and trust.  I guess I was turned off by Rachel’s “poor little me” sob story, because in the end, she didn’t suffer from the financial fraud she kept saying was so devastating.  Does she suffer from lingering trust issues? Maybe, and that’s hard to live with, however she has a roof over her head.

[Melina22]

31 minutes ago, BusyOctober said:

Does she suffer from lingering trust issues? Maybe, and that’s hard to live with, however she has a roof over her head.

Yes. I enjoyed certain aspects of her book, mainly her descriptions of Anna and what she did. But I found myself skipping large sections. She spent so many pages talking about herself and her life, family and experiences, which just weren't that interesting. And she was so melodramatic and convinced no one had ever experienced the trauma she had. She also never once acknowledges her own responsibility in any of it, or the truth that she was just along for the ride with someone she expected to foot the bill for everything. The book left me with very mixed feelings about Rachel, although I was still 100% certain Anna was a monster. 

The worst part is that I feel like Anna's just getting started. People like her only get worse as they get older. 

[CrystalBlue]

I haven't read Rachel's book but find Melina22's review to be interesting.  Are we dealing with two narcissists here?  😃  I don't have a problem with someone writing a book about their own life's experiences, as long as they're not profiting off committing a crime, like convicted criminals behind bars are banned from doing.

I imagine the desperation Rachel had the moment she realized she's in a foreign country as an attractive American non-Muslim female who has to bail out her friend's credit cards situation so she can leave the country without being tossed into a jail cell.

Interesting that American Express bailed her out of the charge dispute when the card's protections.  At least she had that!

Anna has absolutely no conscience or shame.  Now that she's been on TV, hopefully no one else will fall for her frauds.

[Melina22]

6 minutes ago, CrystalBlue said:

I imagine the desperation Rachel had the moment she realized she's in a foreign country as an attractive American non-Muslim female who has to bail out her friend's credit cards situation so she can leave the country without being tossed into a jail cell.

Yes, I totally understood why she was totally panicked during this time, and also once she got home and realized Anna wasn't going to repay the massive debt. 

I don't know that Rachel is a narcissist. She did seem to have lots of friends and family she was on good terms with. Anna is 100% one, probably what they call a malignant narcissist. 

[CrystalBlue]

45 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

Yes, I totally understood why she was totally panicked during this time, and also once she got home and realized Anna wasn't going to repay the massive debt. 

I don't know that Rachel is a narcissist. She did seem to have lots of friends and family she was on good terms with. Anna is 100% one, probably what they call a malignant narcissist. 

I don't really think Rachel is a true narc.  She was a young lady who made friends easily but with the one wrong person.  She got caught up in it all and decided to make some hay while the sun shines with her (boring) book.

[Melina22]

The episode about the Turpins was mind-boggling. Once I started watching I couldn't stop, even though I hadn't planned to watch more than a few minutes. 

Jordan is incredibly photogenic, and very beautiful, but what astonished me the most was what a strong resemblance she has to AOC. It's quite startling. 

I can't grasp how the parents hid 13 children in plain sight for almost 30 years. 

Now I have to distract myself from this story so I can fall asleep. 

 

[MsTree]

2 hours ago, Melina22 said:

I can't grasp how the parents hid 13 children in plain sight for almost 30 years. 

Fear and mind-control...just like a cult leader.

Luckily Jordan had a strong mind and a strong will to remove herself and get help. Despite all the abuse she endured, including malnutrition, she is a very smart young lady.

I hope they find out what happened to all the money that was supposed to help them get acclimated into society.

[Madding crowd]

4 hours ago, Melina22 said:

The episode about the Turpins was mind-boggling. Once I started watching I couldn't stop, even though I hadn't planned to watch more than a few minutes. 

Jordan is incredibly photogenic, and very beautiful, but what astonished me the most was what a strong resemblance she has to AOC. It's quite startling. 

I can't grasp how the parents hid 13 children in plain sight for almost 30 years. 

Now I have to distract myself from this story so I can fall asleep. 

 

Who is AOC? I felt so sad for those children and young adults. Now they are thrust out in a world they don’t understand with no one looking out for them. It infuriates me that people made so many donations but the kids can’t even get a bike or food with the money. I wish I could help them in some way.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Madding crowd

[smittykins]

44 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

Who is AOC?

New York Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.

I’m watching it On Demand, and I’m blown away by Jordan’s bravery.

[thehorseofpower]

I watched the show on the Turpins last night and can't get it out of my head. Jordan seems so bright and curious, and so positive despite all her parents did to squelch that and the lack of support the kids seem to have gotten from the state after their removal. Horrifying to think of those kids just thrust into a world they have no experience with and potentially having their naivete taken advantage of. I keep thinking of Jordan's bravery and spirit and hoping she (and all the siblings) will have improved support and protection after this as they try to forge lives of their own. They should not have to endure further abuse or neglect after everything they've already suffered.

[Melina22]

3 hours ago, MsTree said:

Fear and mind-control...just like a cult leader.

I agree that this is how they kept the children in line. What I meant though, is how did no one ever report them, neighbours especially. If the house across the street from me gave even the slightest evidence of children being there, only they almost never left the house or appeared at windows etc, I know I'd call in an anonymous wellness check. I wonder if there were people who saw things, but never did anything? 

Jordan and her sister looked great, but sadly every single one of those children has PTSD. It's like they were prisoners of war. 😪

[Cozytea]

I'm glad Jordan had those pictures and the police officer was patient with her. She could have easily just been mistook for a drugged out young woman.

I had to watch something funny after,  so I put on Curb your Enthusiasm.  It was the baseball episode that helped keep a young man out  of prison in real life lol. 

Eta: she does look like AOC. Very pretty.  

Edited November 20, 2021 by Cozytea

[Straycat80]

I was visiting my aunt who lived in the town next to Perris when this happened. It was horrifying. Jordan was so brave for what she did to save her siblings. 
What is now so horrifying and sad is that the system failed these children again in foster care and they can’t get the money that was donated to them. I hope this story will change things for them for the better. 

[Matty]

This story was heartbreaking and riveting at the same time. How did this go on for so long? The oldest daughter went to school until third grade dirty and smelly. Did no one at the school check on this? Did the mother have family? No one checked on their 13 nieces and nephews over the years? One of Louise Turpin's sisters was interviewed and spoke about child molestation suffered by Louise and others in the family. I hope the Turpin children are provided assistance and support from agencies that are supposed to help them. They mentioned there was over $600,000 donated by strangers to help them. Where did that money go? Some of the children have experienced homelessness and hunger since their escape. Such a tragedy. I hope ABC will continue tracking this story for the sake of the Turpin children. 

[Madding crowd]

I can’t stop thinking about this family. If each of the Turpin adult children got even a small amount of the donated money, say $30,000 it would provide them with some rent and food money while they get on their feet. I despise these so called agencies who are just in it for money and are refusing to let these “kids” have a chance at life. I hope a better lawyer will step up and fight for their money ( I think they should get it all but not going to happen). When that poor young man just wanted a bike and was told to take the bus it broke my heart. 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Madding crowd

[Tabbygirl521]

9 hours ago, Melina22 said:

I agree that this is how they kept the children in line. What I meant though, is how did no one ever report them, neighbours especially. If the house across the street from me gave even the slightest evidence of children being there, only they almost never left the house or appeared at windows etc, I know I'd call in an anonymous wellness check. I wonder if there were people who saw things, but never did anything? 

Jordan and her sister looked great, but sadly every single one of those children has PTSD. It's like they were prisoners of war. 😪

I wonder, too, about the visits from the family. I get that the kids were trotted out and made to behave as if all was well, but surely the state of the houses must have been horrible. Were there NO red flags? I know the visits eventually were stopped, which I suppose coincided with things getting even worse and worse.

it’s just an overwhelming story and I hope that the publicity generated by 20/20 works quickly in favor of these amazing survivors. 

[Chaos Theory]

The Turpins moved in to communities where people like to be left alone.    They lived in Texas for awhile in two different houses.   At least one set of neighbors were interviewed once and they said the parents were standoffish and the kids they did see were shy but polite.     People who want to be left alone are usually Obliged.  And most people don’t want to get involved unless they know for certain something is wrong.      Both of their Texas homes were foreclosed on and they moved to the CA home where Jordan Turpin made her great escape.  They were just about  to move from their CA home too and Jordan and her sister were afraid some of the siblings wouldn’t survive the trip.    

As much as we all like to say what we think we would do.  Most people don’t get directly involved unless they have no choice in the matter.   It’s easy to see how this went on for so long,   What does trouble me is that the adult dependant Turpins are still living in squalor and that CA is doing nothing to protect them.  

Edited November 21, 2021 by Chaos Theory

[emma675]

The Turpin kids are amazing and I'm infuriated that the system has failed them all over again. I hope this show helps them get the help they need and uncovers everyone in the government who failed them. The fact that their parents starved them for years and some of them still have trouble paying for food just broke my heart.

Where is all of that money? Why can't they get access to it? Who put them in terrible homes in crime ridden neighborhoods? Who will punch Vanessa Espinoza in the face first? When the eldest Turpin son said she wouldn't even help him get a bike and told him to just take the bus, knowing full well he probably didn't know how to navigate public transportation, I wanted to hop on a plane and hunt her down. Heartless bitch.