20/20 - General Discussion

[EtheltoTillie]

20 minutes ago, LakeGal said:

I remember watching Melanie's case on Court TV back when it happened.  I started out with an open mind.  By the conclusion of the trial I believed she was guilty.  But I do believe she had help.  I can't remember if it was her brother or who that I thought did it back then.  

I agree.  She must have had help.  But why?  Why not just get a divorce?  Another one of our favorite genre where one parent kills the other, thereby depriving the kids of both parents. 

[UsernameFatigue]

42 minutes ago, LakeGal said:

I remember watching Melanie's case on Court TV back when it happened.  I started out with an open mind.  By the conclusion of the trial I believed she was guilty.  But I do believe she had help.  I can't remember if it was her brother or who that I thought did it back then.  

Did they even mention a brother in this 20/20 version? I only remember the mother and step dad. But that would certainly make sense. 

What I thought was odd - and got brushed aside - was when Melanie said that they had a large amount of cash to make a down payment on the half a million dollar house that they bought. Where did the large amount of cash come from? Gambling? She made it sound like the guy was a loser in pretty much anything he touched. And I thought her reason for using the cash to buy a house a little odd, considering that the day they closed she decided to tell him that she wanted a divorce.  It made me wonder if they had insurance that would give her the house free and clear in the event of his death, though that was never brought up. 

I thought the "evil genius" was rather stupid when she told investigators that they weren't missing any luggage/had no matching luggage, then had to backtrack. Also what husband, when leaving his wife, packs three suitcases? I could just picture hubby angry enough to leave, but keep coming back to shlep suitcase after suitcase out the door. 

Honestly much of this evil genius's moves reminded me of a Coen Brothers movie. 

[A.Ham]

So I kinda half-watched the Melanie case--I hadn't seen it before and don't even recall hearing about it at the time, but it piqued my interest because I'm a Jersey girl--not actually that far from New Brunswick.

This did seem lopsided to me, sounded almost like an image rehab project. But from what I did see (I ended up fast forwarding as I lost interest after the first 30 or so minutes) I think she did it. And I thought it was hilarious that they kept referring to her as the "pretty nurse". Huh? I thought she was kinda homely looking, but whatev. I fast forwarded to the end only to get annoyed with the two podcasters who seemed to be looking for their 15 minutes and twisting themselves into pretzels to justify why they thought she was innocent. Amateur detectives, they are not.

Edited September 29, 2020 by A.Ham

[Whimsy]

I started listening to the podcast.  A lot of the evidence is circumstantial, not hard-proven evidence.  Also, their not pulling Melanie's cell phone records due to them "not being available" when her husband's were is pretty strange.   I think that one of the podcasters tends to believe her and will twist every piece of evidence in ways to show how she couldn't have done it.  The other one seems to have more suspicions that Melanie is guilty.  It's interesting but I still don't think she's innocent.  Even if it's circumstantial evidence, there's a LOT of circumstances.  

[Fable]

Did anyone see the episode with James Dailey and the murder of Shelly Boggio?  I hadn’t seen this before and found it interesting.  I believed the guy was innocent, but I wonder why the only testimony was from a jail house snitch.  Didn’t the roommate and the girlfriend of the first person of interest say that James was not involved?  Why were these people not presented as witnesses? 

[TVbitch]

I don't know why the statements of the other people in the car/house were discounted. Also, did they collect the pants that were wet? Did they have any blood on them? There did not seem to be any forensic evidence that they presented.

I was left confused. I feel for the guy if he wasn't involved in the murder. How awful. I was hoping he would at least get another trial, so they could do a better job of it. 

[BusyOctober]

Just by the evidence presented on this episode, If I were a juror, I would have a big fat dose of reasonable doubt.  I couldn’t have convicted on the slim evidence presented.  I don’t think the jurors got to hear any of the snitch’ previous crimes and dubious track record to help discredit his testimony.  But why wouldn’t James’ lawyer have mentioned how James’ supposed confession was shouted out, across a hallway, in front of guards and inmates?  And if the defense did present those facts, then how could the juror not have a sliver of doubt?  I don’t know if the man is guilty, but there seems to be enough for another trial, no? 

Speaking of jurors, the woman juror who was interviewed was annoying IMO.  She seemed a wee bit too excited to be on tv for her 15 min of fame.  Yes, she must have heard horrific details about the tragic and violent death of Shelley, and that would stick with you over the years.  However, that juror was overly dramatic with the tears and emotion.  Did she think she was auditioning for Law & Order? 

My daughter just turned 14. She is pretty sheltered and naive, so the idea of a girl her age hanging out with 30 year old men is just inconceivable to me. She and her group of friends have just recently been allowed to go to movies or the mall on their own for a few hours!   I know there are many young girls living a hard and fast life for various reasons.  It is scary that the parents or guardians are either unaware of their kids’ dangerous behavior, or just don’t care.

[Court]

On 10/25/2020 at 11:01 PM, BusyOctober said:

Just by the evidence presented on this episode, If I were a juror, I would have a big fat dose of reasonable doubt.  I couldn’t have convicted on the slim evidence presented.  I don’t think the jurors got to hear any of the snitch’ previous crimes and dubious track record to help discredit his testimony.  But why wouldn’t James’ lawyer have mentioned how James’ supposed confession was shouted out, across a hallway, in front of guards and inmates?  And if the defense did present those facts, then how could the juror not have a sliver of doubt?  I don’t know if the man is guilty, but there seems to be enough for another trial, no? 

Speaking of jurors, the woman juror who was interviewed was annoying IMO.  She seemed a wee bit too excited to be on tv for her 15 min of fame.  Yes, she must have heard horrific details about the tragic and violent death of Shelley, and that would stick with you over the years.  However, that juror was overly dramatic with the tears and emotion.  Did she think she was auditioning for Law & Order? 

My daughter just turned 14. She is pretty sheltered and naive, so the idea of a girl her age hanging out with 30 year old men is just inconceivable to me. She and her group of friends have just recently been allowed to go to movies or the mall on their own for a few hours!   I know there are many young girls living a hard and fast life for various reasons.  It is scary that the parents or guardians are either unaware of their kids’ dangerous behavior, or just don’t care.

All of this. It sounds like there was zero evidence at all here. I don't know if he did it or not but I do believe he should receive a new trial. That former prosecutor came off like an asshole. 

[nora1992]

The tragedy of the Powell boys is devastating, but where is the money supposed to come from?  Will the award to one family result in cuts that will create the next tragedy?  Such departments are all woefully understaffed and underfunded across the country.  
But is it that the lawyers prefer 1/3 of the jury award to 1/3 of $64 million?  The self-congratulatory cackling of the one attorney takes something away from the heartbreak the Cox family is suffering.  Unless I’m wrong, and the lawyers are working pro bono - then I rescind all of the above.

[Writing Wrongs]

I don't understand why Josh Powell was given any visitation. He's a suspect in his wife's murder, oh excuse me "disapearance", his dad's a perv. Those kids shouldn't have been anywhere near him. The whole thing was making me so angry.

Edited November 16, 2020 by Writing Wrongs

[Annber03]

I've never understood that, either. He was undergoing psychosexual evaluation after they'd found some disturbing items on his computer. That should've been more than enough to stop his visitation, period. 

[Court]

Breonna Taylor is heartbreaking. I know the details but I've never watched the videos because I couldn't bring myself to do so at that time. But I felt it was important to watch and not ignore it. People need to stay outraged. 

I almost broke my TV when the dumbass officer said Kenny Walker put her in the hallway and it was his fault. No. It's your fault for being inept and incompetent. No knock warrants need to be illegal. 

[CrazyInAlabama]

The part I find bizarre in the Powell case is how he ever got visitation, and why he was allowed to rent that house for visits.  The poor social worker who had an impossible task of getting the 911 dispatchers, and police to help him was horrible.   Then, after the poor children were murdered, the grandparents had to fight keep the Powell family from burying their murdering father next to them.   Part of that was that two law enforcement officers bought the plots next to where the Cox grandparents were going to bury their grandsons, so the Powell family couldn't buy them for their murderer.   Also, the cemetery changed that part of the cemetery to the children's section.    

Edited November 28, 2020 by CrazyInAlabama

[Annber03]

"Falling from the Sky"-what a frightening, maddening story. Once again, profit, shortcuts, and objections to regulation win out over public safety. Competition is everything. You'd think we would eventually learn at some point, but nope. That's just too much to ask, apparently. It always amazes me how they don't want to make certain things public lest it affect their bottom line. Well, guess what, your bottom line got affected anyway, and on a much bigger and more serious level. So good planning, geniuses. 

The descriptions and images of those plane crash sites were just...dear god. Especially the bit about finding body parts everywhere. What an utterly horrific way to go. My heart goes out to all the poor people who lost loved ones-the poor guy who lost his entire family, the couple who lost both their sons, the little girl who never got to see or know her dad outside of pictures and stories... Just heartbreaking. 

Fuck that Forkner guy who thought it was hilarious to mock this stuff in those messages, and fuck the company implying that U.S. pilots would've just naturally handled this crisis better than pilots from other countries. Good on Sully for shutting down that argument and defending those pilots as he did. It was nice to get some input from him here. That simulator demonstration showing the problems the pilots were dealing with was very illuminating and scary-it's very easy to see where they would've struggled as they did. Add in the constant beeping noises surrounding them and I can see any pilot, no matter how well-trained they are, no matter how calm they are, freaking out and panicking. That kind of constant noise would be incredibly distracting and make it hard to think properly and focus. It was quite moving to see the pilots who did that demonstration getting emotional as they reflected on what the pilots of those doomed flights must've been thinking and going through in their final moments. 

I appreciate the efforts by these families to fight back, and the way the Stumos confronted the CEO to his face. Amen to their irritation over that pathetic "folksy farm boy from Iowa" act-and speaking as an Iowan, I'd be fine if he didn't come back here. I'm also glad to see the investigations still seem to be going strong-I really hope some people do get held properly accountable for this, up to and including jail time. 

The chances of me getting on a plane anytime soon are pretty much nil, but I wouldn't feel comfortable getting on one of these planes, either. They said the first flight was scheduled for the end of December? I guess we'll find out in about a month or so if any of these efforts to fix things actually paid off, or if it's just another Band-Aid, then. 

Edited November 28, 2020 by Annber03

[CrazyInAlabama]

Did anyone else catch the "Tangled Web" episode last night?   A man is dating a woman, she has issues, and disappears.   Then the text messages, and stalking starts, including the man, and two other women he is involved with later.       Liz's house is actually burned to the ground by arson, she's later shot in the leg, and the other very short term girlfriend is threatened, and harassed.  Then, after over two years of this, two more detectives take the case on, and one investigates it as if the missing girlfriend (Cari) did it, and the other investigates it from the angle that she's dead, and someone else is doing this. 

Spoiler

 

It turns out that LIz, the new girlfriend has been doing all of this herself, Cari was long dead, but Liz used computer methods to send texts when she was with the boyfriend, to look like Cari was sending it.    The arson was Liz too.    Liz also stole the boyfriend's gun, and shot herself in the leg to look like Cari or the boyfriend's ex (the ex had two kids with him, and moved on long ago) shot her, and was doing the vandalism, and harassment.     

One of the commenters on the show was Leslie Rule, Ann Rule's daughter, who wrote the true crime book about the case.    However, some of the Amazon comments about the book are not good, by people who say they were involved in the case.  However, if you don't want to talk to a writer for TV or books, or cooperate with the documentary filming, then they're going to work with the documents they have, and interpret action according to what people told them. .   

Liz, killed Cari, and was convicted, and received a sentence of life without parole.

 

 

Edited December 6, 2020 by CrazyInAlabama

[Melina22]

1 hour ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

Did anyone else catch the "Tangled Web" episode last night? 

I just watched it. I saw the story sometime ago on Dateline but I forgot how utterly crazy Liz was. I mean, 15,000 emails? Setting fire to her own house and killing her own pets? Stabbing Cari and shooting herself? Yet acting normal around other people? Chilling. 

I don't understand why it was so hard to establish who was sending the emails though. Surely if they had called in a forensic computer person right at the start, plus some kind of cell phone person, they would have seen where the messages were originating. Or is that something I believe because of watching too many crime shows?

It's hard to believe the police told Dave to just get used to the stalking, or that they couldn't have figured this out without a huge amount of effort. 

[CrazyInAlabama]

I felt so sorry for Cari's family, being told for years that they couldn't do anything to find her, and that she was stalking and committing arson, when it was the woman who murdered her doing it all.    

[saber5055]

I watched Tangled Web last night, and it was familiar so I guess I saw it on Dateline a while back. Just a bit into it I knew Liz was the "person." I still don't know why she was all whack sending messages as Cari when she had killed Cari and the guy was dating her again. Maybe the texts were to keep the boyfriend scared and dating her? But geesh, three or four years of it? I'm surprised they didn't use an insanity plea, burning her house and killing all her pets, shooting herself ... wow.

Although the one police saying Liz was the type that if it was 2 in the afternoon, if you said it was 2 in the afternoon, Liz would swear no, it's midnight. I have an ex like that. He could be holding an apple in his hand all while swearing he'd never seen nor taken an apple EVER. Those people believe everything they are saying. (BTW, ex was arrested just like Liz was.)

Those cold-case cops are heroes, finally paying attention and investigating. The rest of the police force ... what a bunch of losers on the taxpayers dole, doing nothing. How many others have been murdered while their families' requests for help have been blown off.

I wish there had been a search for Cari's remains. If she had been stuffed in a trash can, a SAR dog might have been able to locate remains in a garbage dump. They can sometimes find human bones buried many feet deep.

I feel really sorry for the boyfriend, who did nothing wrong, but he is ruined for life. I'm glad they let him say that at the end because I was thinking it.

I missed what sentencing Liz got. I hope it was life. Wish it were more.

[CrazyInAlabama]

Liz received life without parole, plus 12 to 14 years for the arson.      

I don't think Liz ever told where she put Cari's earthly remains.      However, considering what Liz did after the murder to dispose of the evidence, I doubt they ever will find any of Cari's remains.   

 Liz still claims she didn't do it, so admitting anything about the murder, or after, is not going to happen.     I guess she thinks someone will believe she just stumbled on the body, and disposed of it.   Like many criminals, Liz seems to thing everyone but her is stupid.     Here's the cinemaholic article about Liz now, but they aren't a great source. 

https://www.thecinemaholic.com/where-is-shanna-liz-golyar-now/

Out in the grasslands, I'm sure you could dump a body, and not have anyone find it for many years.    Where I used to live in Colorado, a man was murdered, and no one found his remains for several years.    It seemed like  hunters would always find skeletons.     Maybe someday someone will stumble on some remains.   

Edited December 6, 2020 by CrazyInAlabama

[saber5055]

9 minutes ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

I don't think Liz ever told where she put Cari's earthly remains.

Well, the "ex wife" admitted to stabbing Cari multiple times in her car, then stuffing her body in a trash can and covering her with "crap." I'm just guessing the trash can got dumped in a, well, dump somewhere. Glad Liz got life w/o parole. Thanks, Crazy.

Edited December 6, 2020 by saber5055

[TVbitch]

On 12/5/2020 at 10:26 AM, Melina22 said:

I don't understand why it was so hard to establish who was sending the emails though.

Me either! Or why the fuck it took so long for law enforcement to even bother to check and see that Cari had not accessed her checking accounts or her credit cards since the day she disappeared! Ridiculous! 

Liz must have had an insane amount of energy to be doing all that crazy shit, while dating Dave, while presumably holding down some kind of job, while dealing with the cops every other day, etc. 

[Melina22]

On 12/5/2020 at 8:20 PM, CrazyInAlabama said:

Maybe someday someone will stumble on some remains.   

One of the side effects of watching so much Dateline is that now when my husband and I walk our dog in the woods, I always half expect to stumble on some remains. 

The other side effect is that I wouldn't dream of walking my dog in the woods alone. 

[CrazyInAlabama]

The sad truth is that if you're a legal adult you have the right to walk away.     Until the number of years passed, and with the phony texts from Liz, it was a long time before the police even accepted that it wasn't Cari sending the texts.   

In the Rodney Reed case, the list of women who identified him, and testified about other assaults was stunning.   They included a disabled woman, a 12 year old girl, and several others.     He tried the lies about having a consensual relationship with other victims, and it worked, so he tried the same story again.     I do not believe he had any relationship with Stacey, until the day he killed her.  

 

Edited December 12, 2020 by CrazyInAlabama

[heatherchandler]

I’m not buying that Rodney Reed was having an affair with Stacey.  
I think he’s guilty.

eta- I’m against the death penalty so I’m hoping he’s not put to death.  But would they be able to change the sentence to a life sentence?

Edited December 12, 2020 by heatherchandler

[mamadrama]

Yeah, I'm not buying Rodney's innocence.

On the other hand, IF I'm wrong and she was having an affair and told her 18yo co-worker then fuck her for not telling anyone because she "didn't want to get involved." At 18 I knew right from wrong and no way would I have sat on evidence that could've saved someone from prison. (That's another reason I think she's lying. I think she wanted attention.)

[CrazyInAlabama]

I agree that the co-worker was lying.  Either she wanted the attention, or she was so anti-death penalty that she was willing to lie to get him off.  

The reason I say that about the death penalty is there was a nationally famous mass shooting case, and they sent out questionaires to thousands of people for potential jury duty.    A former friend said she hoped she would get one, and I pointed out it was already announced as a death penalty case if the person was convicted.   She said that she is so opposed to the death penalty, that she lie on the questionaire, and she would want to get on the jury to vote not guilty, so the person couldn't get convicted.    Good thing she didn't get on the questionaire list, and couldn't have been on the potential panel, because my conscience would  have pushed me to tell the D.A.'s office about her plan.   But that's an example of how far someone will go to prevent someone from a conviction. 

Edited December 17, 2020 by CrazyInAlabama

[UsernameFatigue]

Like others I think Rodney Reed is right where he should be. Even without his history of assaulting other women, the logistics of it being her boyfriend just doesn't make sense. They lived it seems at least a 20 minute drive away from where Stacey worked since she left at 3am for a 3:30am shift, driving on a highway into the town where the grocery store was located. She did her boyfriend kill her, then drive all that way to dispose of the truck, then walk miles to get back home? Doubtful. But as it turns out the truck was found less than a mile from Rodney's house.

I think the fact that her boyfriend ended up being a rapist points more to his innocence regarding Stacey than his guilt. If he did kill her, I find it hard to believe that he would not have raped her as well, if he was angry that she was cheating on him. Or angry at her for any reason. It isn't like he would not have a reason for his semen to be found in Stacey since they were living together and getting married. 

Finally I don't believe the co worker either. If it is something that was so taboo in that town during that time, why tell a co worker? Why not a close friend if you are going to tell someone? And that fact that there is absolutely no evidence of a relationship of any kind? Not likely. Also even the co worker's interview made no sense when she said that both she and Stacey said at the same time that she needed to be careful or words to that effect. It just did not ring true. 

[Court]

I don't know if Rodney is guilty or not. I can be swayed either way but I do think the cops screwed up a lot of the investigation. Her fiancee is a rapist too and had the advantage of being a cop.

But I hated the mother and sisters. They were clearly racist and hide behind God for their judgy ass ways. There's no way that that family would have accepted her sleeping with a black guy. If she was.

[Sarahsmile416]

1 hour ago, Court said:

I don't know if Rodney is guilty or not. I can be swayed either way but I do think the cops screwed up a lot of the investigation. Her fiancee is a rapist too and had the advantage of being a cop.

But I hated the mother and sisters. They were clearly racist and hide behind God for their judgy ass ways. There's no way that that family would have accepted her sleeping with a black guy. If she was.

I’m sitting on this fence too.  At the very least, I have a lot of reasonable doubt about his innocence/guilt and her fiancée truly skeeved me out.  
 

The whole explanation about lividity and rigor mortis made a lot of sense to me.  

[KittyMom4]

I just watched the 20/20 episodes (2 parts) on the Kimberly Mays/Twigg switched at birth. Wow. Just wow. I did not realize how much was going on in that case. I remembered it happening when I was a teenager and thinking why won't the Twigg family just leave her be? After watching this I now wish they'd done more sooner. And poor Kimberly, my god what a fucked up life she had. Her "dad" sounded like a first class control freak asshole who may or may not have manipulated the switch and then married a nurse who was helping care for his dying wife shortly after her death. And the wife had started divorce proceedings just weeks before her death too! He wouldn't let his dead wife's family see Kimberly, and when he divorced his 2nd wife he cut off her contact with Kimberly as well. That poor girl. She has no contact with her birth family now either. No one came out happy in that mess. 

[Annber03]

Holy hell, the story about the Chameleon. Downright chilling. All those victims...all those poor children... Major, MAJOR round of applause to every single person who worked so hard on this investigation and explored all these various avenues and did all the tireless research and so forth. I'm so glad that their efforts have been paying off and people are finally getting some much needed answers. On the one hand, I wish Terry were still alive to feel the heat of this investigation and know that his other crimes would be discovered, but on the other hand, y'know, good riddance. 

I hope they're able to finally give a name to his daughter, and can find out who her mom was and what became of her, too. If the people involved in this investigation keep at the pace they've been going thus far, I imagine it won't be long before we learn those answers, either. 

I was also really touched by the meeting between the Honeychurches and Diane, and that Diane came to the funeral for three of the victims. I can sympathize with her feelings of guilt, but I'm glad that the Honeychurhes were able to assure her that she needn't feel that way. 

And poor Eunsoon. What a grotesque way to die. 

I was amused by the guy talking about how the cat litter turned out to be the key to his section of this winding case, though. That's gotta be right up there on a "Things a detective probably never expects to say" list :p. 

[itsadryheat]

19 hours ago, Annber03 said:

I imagine it won't be long before we learn those answers, either. 

Yes this is a wild story and I look forward to a part 2. Would like to know more about Rasmussen. Found these articles referencing a lead about his daughter. 

https://tucson.com/news/state-and-regional/officials-seek-woman-seen-in-arizona-with-serial-killer-in-1970s/article_af17f142-bff2-11e7-9917-d77ab9e5276a.html

https://gcmaz.com/cold-case-out-of-new-hampshire-may-have-northern-arizona-ties/

Did they ever find the little girl from the beginning, Lisa, family?

Edited January 24, 2021 by itsadryheat

[Annber03]

22 minutes ago, itsadryheat said:

Yes this is a wild story and I look forward to a part 2. Would like to know more about Rasmussen. Found these articles referencing a lead about his daughter. 

https://tucson.com/news/state-and-regional/officials-seek-woman-seen-in-arizona-with-serial-killer-in-1970s/article_af17f142-bff2-11e7-9917-d77ab9e5276a.html

https://gcmaz.com/cold-case-out-of-new-hampshire-may-have-northern-arizona-ties/

Oh, my god, so her mom might possibly still be alive? Wow. Oh, I hope that lead pans out (but oh, if it is her mom, then she'll have to learn the horrible news about what happened to her daughter :(). 

Quote

Did they ever find the little girl from the beginning, Lisa, family?

 

They found out that her actual birth name was Dawn, and they were able to trace back to her grandfather in New Hampshire, and found out he had a daughter named Denise, who was Dawn's mom. But he said the last time he'd seen Denise and Dawn was shortly after Thanksgiving in 1981, when they left with Terry. We know what became of Dawn/Lisa, but Denise has never been seen or heard from since. 

[Madding crowd]

I watched the anniversary of the sleepwalking murder episode and still don’t believe this guy. I could see striking out while asleep but changing clothes, washing up, hiding the bloody clothes and weapons don’t fit with ‘mindless acts’ done while sleeping. Also him coming back outside to finish the job on his wife. I think he knew his family would bring up the sleepwalking.

I still don’t understand how the two kids slept through the mom probably screaming, lights and sirens of police cars and a team of cops and technicians storming through the house. The son said they didn’t wake up until the cops came in their rooms in the morning. My son is a heavy sleeper but he woke up when the lady across the street called an ambulance. I almost wonder if the kids were given Benadryl or something. 

[IntrovertRed]

7 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

I watched the anniversary of the sleepwalking murder episode and still don’t believe this guy. I could see striking out while asleep but changing clothes, washing up, hiding the bloody clothes and weapons don’t fit with ‘mindless acts’ done while sleeping. Also him coming back outside to finish the job on his wife. I think he knew his family would bring up the sleepwalking.

I still don’t understand how the two kids slept through the mom probably screaming, lights and sirens of police cars and a team of cops and technicians storming through the house. The son said they didn’t wake up until the cops came in their rooms in the morning. My son is a heavy sleeper but he woke up when the lady across the street called an ambulance. I almost wonder if the kids were given Benadryl or something. 

I agree.  I might feel otherwise if he hadn't attacked her twice.  Could it be that he woke up right after the first act, panicked after he realized what he did and then just finished her off?  So many questions.  Another thing that was bugging me - what was the motive?  Was he just tired of being married?  He seemed a little creepy, and I felt he was just putting on a performance for the jury, but it still doesn't explain the WHY.

[Annber03]

Very odd story. I do remember hearing about this story on some other show once, but it was so long ago that I didn't recall all the details. 

On the one hand, I can totally buy somebody committing a violent act while in the throes of sleepwalking. I saw a story on a show one time about a guy who, one night, when he was in a drunken stupor, had wandered into a house that he'd lived in as a child and murdered the couple who now lived there, having mistaken them for his parents, and he only came to recall those memories after getting into AA and trying to get his life back on track. So if somebody can do something like that while drunk, I can easily see sleepwalking being the same way. Especially since he did have a history of sleepwalking and had been aggressive when doing so once before, with that incident with his sister. And with the idea that you don't recognize people's faces while sleepwalking, the way you would when you're awake, then that makes even more sense-they're a stranger to you in that state, so yeah, your protective instincts are naturally going to kick in as a result. 

But forty-four stab wounds is some serious overkill. Add in the whole thing of going back and dropping her into the pool, and packing away all the items tied to the crime, and yeah, I understand the doubts. 

23 hours ago, KLJ said:

He seemed a little creepy, and I felt he was just putting on a performance for the jury, but it still doesn't explain the WHY.

My mom and I said the same thing. He seemed like he was kinda overdoing it with the tears on the stand, and his arrogant tone towards the prosecution and the jury especially rubbed me the wrong way. I do think the prosecution's case wasn't airtight and there were a few gaps (like you mention ,the lack of a motive*), and knowing what we know now about the prosecutor's sketchy history, it does color his skills here. But you can't sit here and say on the one hand that you can't remember what happened that night and then get all dismissive towards people who are coming up with their own theories about that night, and claim that they don't know what they're talking about or that they "got it wrong". If you really can't remember, then how do you know they got it wrong? Their theories are just as valid as yours are, aren't they? 

*Honestly, maybe it speaks to how jaded I've become thanks to watching so many true crime shows, but they kept making a point of his religious background throughout, so if there was some kind of motive, I kept wondering if it had something to do with his religious beliefs somehow. Especially given his arrogant attitude. 

I will say, though, that cases like this perfectly explain one of the many reasons I'm against the death penalty and why I think his sentence was a fair one. Because science is always evolving, I do agree that there's got to be a lot that we still don't fully yet know about sleep disorders and how the brain works in that setting and whatnot. So if it turns out down the line that there is concrete evidence that backs up his sleepwalking claims, then at least he has a chance of getting out of prison eventually. If he'd been put to death, and it came out later that science could prove his claims, well... 

[Fable]

I was on the fence with the sleep walking guy for the most part.  I’ve had episodes of sleep walking myself, of course never involving murder or even violence, but doing strange things like unloading dirty dishes from the dishwasher and putting them away.  He seemed pretty mild mannered, and I had a hard time believing he would have done that, with no history of violence or marital problems.  However, what I found odd was that he just happened to have a knife handy and was able to stab her 44 times.  My conclusion (pure speculation on my part, not victim blaming) is that maybe he was henpecked to death, and being a generally passive person, finally just snapped. 

[Madding crowd]

I have always heard you would not do violent acts while sleepwalking or drunk unless you were prone to violence in general. It is hard to believe that we are all in constant danger of a person drinking alcohol or sleepwalking then murdering us. And we have no proof he was henpecked just because she asked him to repair the pool filter.

I think he was tired of being married, couldn’t divorce because of religious reasons and knew his history sleepwalking could be used as an excuse. We did hear his coworker say he often talked about disliking his wife’s appearance, which doesn’t prove a motive but may mean he wanted out. 

[Annber03]

14 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

I have always heard you would not do violent acts while sleepwalking or drunk unless you were prone to violence in general.

My mom and I were just discussing this theory as well. I agree with this. I think that sort of thing tends to enhance or tap into parts of your personality that you've either repressed (or tried to repress) or which have been bubbling for some time. They talked about how he had no criminal history, but that doesn't automatically mean anything, because there's been lots of cases where someone who didn't have a criminal past killed a loved one for some reason or another. You don't have to have a criminal past to become violent. 

[UsernameFatigue]

The sleepwalking case reminded me of a case in the Toronto area in the late 80s. A man drove 20 kms from his house to his in laws, killed his mother in law and attempted to kill his father in law. He had no memory of driving to his in laws, and said he had no reason to harm them. He woke up, and drove himself to the police station to turn himself in. He had a history of sleepwalking, and was acquitted of the murder/attempted murder. At the time of his trial in 1989 apparently there were about 35 cases world wide of homicides committed during sleep walking. 

I am  on the fence with this case. I have had a couple of episodes of sleep walking (that I know of) and both times mine were related to carrying out tasks that were a part of a dream. I have no idea how long I was sleep walking for, and only knew that I had because of things that were different/moved when I woke up. I am not sure based on other murders of people supposedly sleepwalking if it is unreasonable to think that he carried out two attacks on his wife, and hid clothes/knife in his car? 

Definitely a strange case, and one that I do not have a strong feeling about one way or the other. 

[Kelly]

On 1/30/2021 at 8:56 AM, Madding crowd said:

I watched the anniversary of the sleepwalking murder episode and still don’t believe this guy. I could see striking out while asleep but changing clothes, washing up, hiding the bloody clothes and weapons don’t fit with ‘mindless acts’ done while sleeping. Also him coming back outside to finish the job on his wife. I think he knew his family would bring up the sleepwalking.

I still don’t understand how the two kids slept through the mom probably screaming, lights and sirens of police cars and a team of cops and technicians storming through the house. The son said they didn’t wake up until the cops came in their rooms in the morning. My son is a heavy sleeper but he woke up when the lady across the street called an ambulance. I almost wonder if the kids were given Benadryl or something. 

I'm on the fence.  He seemed believable to me, and there was no motive IMO.  I'd be interested to know more about sleepwalking.  I'm surprised he got so much time in prison.

I didn't find it surprising that the kids slept thru the melee...maybe it's just my kids, husband etc - but they will sleep thru anything.  

[Kelly]

On 1/31/2021 at 4:13 PM, Annber03 said:

I saw a story on a show one time about a guy who, one night, when he was in a drunken stupor, had wandered into a house that he'd lived in as a child and murdered the couple who now lived there, having mistaken them for his parents, and he only came to recall those memories after getting into AA and trying to get his life back on track. 

OMG I remember that case...Paul Cox.  Terrifying.  Those poor people...

https://www.nytimes.com/1994/06/07/nyregion/alcoholic-said-he-killed-colleagues-testify.html

[TVbitch]

My brother was a sleepwalker. They are hard to rouse, but you can rouse them with effort. I don't believe this guy could take a shower and not come to. I also am skeptical because he tried to cover up the crime. A sleepwalker would not do that cuz in their world the murder was just something that was happening. Also, like someone else said, where did this knife come from? The guy did not seem like a hunter. Why did he have the knife, and why would he take the knife to the pool pump with him. That's weird, even if he was dreaming. I wish they would have said more about the weapon.  

[Court]

11 minutes ago, TVbitch said:

My brother was a sleepwalker. They are hard to rouse, but you can rouse them with effort. I don't believe this guy could take a shower and not come to. I also am skeptical because he tried to cover up the crime. A sleepwalker would not do that cuz in their world the murder was just something that was happening. Also, like someone else said, where did this knife come from? The guy did not seem like a hunter. Why did he have the knife, and why would he take the knife to the pool pump with him. That's weird, even if he was dreaming. I wish they would have said more about the weapon.  

This. My brother has had some serious sleepwalking episodes. He once locked himself out of the house in boxers and was screaming about dinosaurs.

I don't believe this guy because he took a shower and concealed evidence. 44 times is also something that I keep circling back too. If he hadn't showered and done that, I might believe him. 

I do believe that he snapped. 

[Annber03]

I thought it was interesting when one of the jurors talked about him testifying on the stand, and he said something to the effect that the guy seemed to truly think what he was saying about that night was true. He meant it more in the sense that he thought the guy was being sincere in his testimony, but one could also take it to mean that the guy's been telling his story of his version of events from that night so long that he's come to genuinely believe that's how it actually happened, even though some of the evidence seems to contradict his story. 

[Court]

6 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

I thought it was interesting when one of the jurors talked about him testifying on the stand, and he said something to the effect that the guy seemed to truly think what he was saying about that night was true. He meant it more in the sense that he thought the guy was being sincere in his testimony, but one could also take it to mean that the guy's been telling his story of his version of events from that night so long that he's come to genuinely believe that's how it actually happened, even though some of the evidence seems to contradict his story. 

I can definitely see that or that he blacked it out.

[AryasMum]

On 1/31/2021 at 11:06 PM, UsernameFatigue said:

The sleepwalking case reminded me of a case in the Toronto area in the late 80s. A man drove 20 kms from his house to his in laws, killed his mother in law and attempted to kill his father in law. He had no memory of driving to his in laws, and said he had no reason to harm them. He woke up, and drove himself to the police station to turn himself in. He had a history of sleepwalking, and was acquitted of the murder/attempted murder. At the time of his trial in 1989 apparently there were about 35 cases world wide of homicides committed during sleep walking. 

I am  on the fence with this case. I have had a couple of episodes of sleep walking (that I know of) and both times mine were related to carrying out tasks that were a part of a dream. I have no idea how long I was sleep walking for, and only knew that I had because of things that were different/moved when I woke up. I am not sure based on other murders of people supposedly sleepwalking if it is unreasonable to think that he carried out two attacks on his wife, and hid clothes/knife in his car? 

Definitely a strange case, and one that I do not have a strong feeling about one way or the other. 

There is another case of alleged sleep-walking murder that has been covered.  The neighbor’s security camera viewed the husband’s actions at his sliding glass door. The woman had been murdered in the backyard, off camera. The part I remember is the guy reached down and stroked his dog’s head.  Prosecution contended that a sleepwalker would not do that. I can’t recall the verdict. ☹️

[UsernameFatigue]

2 hours ago, AryasMum said:

There is another case of alleged sleep-walking murder that has been covered.  The neighbor’s security camera viewed the husband’s actions at his sliding glass door. The woman had been murdered in the backyard, off camera. The part I remember is the guy reached down and stroked his dog’s head.  Prosecution contended that a sleepwalker would not do that. I can’t recall the verdict. ☹️

I hope the prosecution had a better reason to think the guy wasn't sleep walking than that. Sounds like the prosecutor in that case thought that sleep walkers walked like zombies with their arms out in front of them. Sleep walkers often carry out normal tasks, and I can't imagine anything more normal than petting your dog/cat. In fact to me that might point to the fact that he was sleep walking, as you would think that if he wasn't and had just killed his wife, he might be a bit too pre occupied and stressed to worry about petting his dog. 

Edited February 2, 2021 by UsernameFatigue

[OpalNightstream]

The sleepwalking episode: Connie Chung rubbed me the wrong way when she asked victim’s (and suspect’s) son if he understood that his dad may get the death penalty and how he feels about it. This kid was no older than maybe 14 at the time of the interview. What a terrible question to ask a kid who was already dealing with too much.

[IntrovertRed]

Just finished watching episode on Anna Nicole Smith.  I admit to not having much sympathy for her over the years, but I didn't realize that she was a sweet, naive and beautiful woman who never had a chance for a normal, happy life.  She did truly seem to care for her husband Marshall, but how can one not be skeptical given the circumstances.  At one point, she did seem to be on the right path with her modeling and then acting until she was prescribed painkillers for her back pain that was caused by implants.  One wonders, if she had removed the implants, maybe she wouldn't have needed the painkillers because that's when it seemed her problems started.  Although she does seem like such a sad, tragic figure, would it have mattered?  Oh and only if her 'friends' had not drugged her and (1) taken her to the hospital when she had a fever of 105(!) and (2) called 911 when she was found unresponsive!  Why was she even alone if she was that feverish?  Maybe she didn't care at that point though because of her son's death.  Just so so sad.

I'm extremely disgusted that both Howard K. Stern and Dr. Eroshevich are both apparently still practicing with seemingly no repercussions. They clearly didn't have her best interest in mind.  Howard K. Stern was a true scumbag.  

I have a daughter Dannielynn's age, and I'm happily surprised she appears to be a normal, happy teenager.  Larry appears to be doing a good job raising her.  Kudos to him.  I hope she is kept FAR FAR away from Hollywood.