20/20 - General Discussion

[ChristmasJones]

Pleased to see so many share my view of this idiot.  OMG. I could not deal with him at all.  Of course I do not condone murder or suicide..... but when you play with fire, things like this can happen. And I consider dumping your long-term partner for a new model to be playing with fire. Its a sign of bad character.  Humans are more vulnerable than we realize sometimes. 

I hated how they focused so much on how she was recording him and all that. Why not focus on why she felt a need to do those things in the first place!!!  I wish the interviewer would have asked some harder questions.  The show was very much spun to make her look crazy and him look like an innocent victim.  I was soooo pissed watching this show!! 

Regardless of whatever spin he wants to try to put on it now, he will live with the horrible consequences of his choices for the rest of his life.  He wanted to just waltz off with the younger woman and leave his wife in the dust. He wanted her to just get over it and let him do what he wanted. Soooo arrogant!!  I guess he picked the wrong woman to do that to. 

[A.Ham]

I had to watch this after reading the comments. Right off the bat, he was playing the victim about how she never praised him. Whatever, dude, you let your little head drive your decisions. No sympathy for him or his mistress who was not only unprofessional but also a cheater. Yes, they both likely had done this prior, based on the sheer speed of their "relationship". 

Still, no reason for Jennair to obsess over them and do what she did. I would have suggested for her to leave his behind in the dust and focus on healing herself, which she likely would not have listened to. Neither of them are worth the trouble. Also, murdering someone is still wrong, certainly not for the reason she did it.

On 9/7/2019 at 8:52 PM, LisainCali said:

i found the cheesy background singer completely distracting and annoying.

I think they were going for creepy but landed on utterly annoying.

[atlantaloves]

I just flashed on my past experience with this sort of tripe and I had to hire a private detective to get the scoop on my cheating lawyer husband, cost me a fortune.....ahhhhhh the modern digital world. Saves a gal a lot of money, as I said above, she should have killed him tooooo. He was worthless. I am sorry that she killed herself and didn't get away with it, oh God, I watch too many of these shows. Sorry!  But, I love them so! 

[OpalNightstream]

Jennair’s husband (Mark?) was typical mid life crises man. Do you think he was maybe shopping for a convertible too? Of course we all know the Meredith thing wouldn’t have worked out bc it would be just a matter of time before a newer, younger model cane along who made him feel “special”. It’s just a shame that Jennair couldn’t see that her POS husband was actually doing her a favor of sorts by leaving her because he clearly was a selfish @$$ who didn’t give a flip about her at all (especially with already stressful jobless situation.) I’m convinced in time she would have been able to move on. But I also understand the betrayal must have been overwhelming after all those years of trusting that @$$ of a husband. 

[Tabbygirl521]

Why would someone name their child after a range? Criminy 

Mark was a coward. Who goes to counseling with a spouse who is longing to save the marriage, while secretly hoping the counseling will make it easier for him to leave? Or whatever he said. It was cheesy as hell. 

[StinkyGreyCat76]

Clearly I'm in the minority here, but I came away from the show with nothing but hatred for Jennair.  I realize Mark was a selfish, immature jerk, probably going through a mid-life crisis, and it is always shitty of people to have affairs, but he is not the first person to have an affair and leave a long marriage.  I doubt Jennair's controlling and obsessive behavior started only when she found out about the affair.  This is a woman who sewed microphones in his suit jackets and put tracking devices on both their cars.  If the genders were reversed, and this was a man doing this to a woman, I would absolutely classify that as semi-abusive stalking behavior and be terrified (I'm a woman).

As for going to the marriage counselor, I kind of get why he did that.  I don't think she ever would have let the marriage end, and I bet he was hoping that the counselor would help a crazy person see some reason.  You can't force someone to stay in a marriage and Mark had a right to get out and divorce her.  Her whole life was that marriage and I doubt it was a picnic to be married to someone that obsessive, controlling and troubled.

I know that show was being told from Mark's point of view and maybe trying to generate sympathy for him, but even if he is the biggest louse on earth (and he might be!) I still came away from it thinking that Jennair was terrifying, evil, controlling, and really not at all different from abusive men who kill their wives when they try to leave them.  Fuck her.

[Whimsy]

3 hours ago, StinkyGreyCat76 said:

Clearly I'm in the minority here, but I came away from the show with nothing but hatred for Jennair.  I realize Mark was a selfish, immature jerk, probably going through a mid-life crisis, and it is always shitty of people to have affairs, but he is not the first person to have an affair and leave a long marriage.  I doubt Jennair's controlling and obsessive behavior started only when she found out about the affair.  This is a woman who sewed microphones in his suit jackets and put tracking devices on both their cars.  If the genders were reversed, and this was a man doing this to a woman, I would absolutely classify that as semi-abusive stalking behavior and be terrified (I'm a woman).

As for going to the marriage counselor, I kind of get why he did that.  I don't think she ever would have let the marriage end, and I bet he was hoping that the counselor would help a crazy person see some reason.  You can't force someone to stay in a marriage and Mark had a right to get out and divorce her.  Her whole life was that marriage and I doubt it was a picnic to be married to someone that obsessive, controlling and troubled.

I know that show was being told from Mark's point of view and maybe trying to generate sympathy for him, but even if he is the biggest louse on earth (and he might be!) I still came away from it thinking that Jennair was terrifying, evil, controlling, and really not at all different from abusive men who kill their wives when they try to leave them.  Fuck her.

This is exactly how I feel about her, too. 

[Melina22]

3 hours ago, StinkyGreyCat76 said:

Clearly I'm in the minority here, but I came away from the show with nothing but hatred for Jennair.  I realize Mark was a selfish, immature jerk, probably going through a mid-life crisis, and it is always shitty of people to have affairs, but he is not the first person to have an affair and leave a long marriage.  I doubt Jennair's controlling and obsessive behavior started only when she found out about the affair.  This is a woman who sewed microphones in his suit jackets and put tracking devices on both their cars.  If the genders were reversed, and this was a man doing this to a woman, I would absolutely classify that as semi-abusive stalking behavior and be terrified (I'm a woman).

Even though I felt for her, having been in a similar situation myself, you make a good point. She really went full on crazy, up to and including murder. And as you said, maybe this obsessive side of her existed long before the affair, and made being married to her extremely challenging. And I agree... no matter how he approached divorcing her, it was going to end horribly. 

[TVbitch]

Re: Saturday's "Hustler" commercial...

JLo: "They were just doing what they had to to survive." No, JLo, the stippers are not folk heroes worthy of being glamorized in a hit movie.

Those men did nothing wrong, and those women preyed on them, robbed them, and could have killed them. 

[Melina22]

51 minutes ago, TVbitch said:

JLo: "They were just doing what they had to to survive." No, JLo, the strippers are not folk heroes worthy of being glamorized in a hit movie.

I saw that and found it offensive. That's why I deleted the show without watching. 

[Whimsy]

1 hour ago, Melina22 said:

I saw that and found it offensive. That's why I deleted the show without watching. 

I watched it, but I was disgusted the whole time.  I got zero sense of guilt or even recognizing they did anything wrong by either of those girls.  The movie (the small snippets we saw) also doesn't seem to make them accountable for anything.  I wish they had gotten into a lot more trouble as they really deserved it!!

[Melina22]

27 minutes ago, Whimsy said:

watched it, but I was disgusted the whole time.  I got zero sense of guilt or even recognizing they did anything wrong by either of those girls.  The movie (the small snippets we saw) also doesn't seem to make them accountable for anything.  I wish they had gotten into a lot more trouble as they really deserved it!!

Wow, I'm glad I skipped it. I hate the way they're pushing this as some kind of female empowerment, when it's really just sleazy, predatory behaviour. 

[pinguina]

It seemed that the women in this particular show became used to having a certain amount of money/income.  They did not seem to even think of putting money away for a "rainy day". When that ended, they wanted the same lifestyle that they had enjoyed before the "crash".     I think that most people would find a way to live on a more restricted budget.  But they didn't want to do that - they wanted "easy" money and seemed to have found a way to get it.    

They also seemed to not even "get" how horribly wrong their scheme could go - someone could have been really physically/mentally impacted because of the mixture of drugs they were given (plus combined with alcohol!).  They were lucky that they didn't kill someone!!  They would have been arrested for murder (of some type).  

The two women interviewed still didn't seem to "get" that they did something wrong!!  I understand that during their stripper days they were treated badly by the men that they had to deal with BUT that is not a reason to cheat, steal, drug other men.  

6 hours ago, TVbitch said:

Re: Saturday's "Hustler" commercial...

JLo: "They were just doing what they had to to survive." No, JLo, the stippers are not folk heroes worthy of being glamorized in a hit movie.

Those men did nothing wrong, and those women preyed on them, robbed them, and could have killed them. 

^^^THIS!!  Exactly!

I did not see this as "woman empowerment" - It showed that some women could be just as selfish, greedy, disregarding other people's feelings/rights, and love money just as some men do.

[mamadrama]

On 9/13/2019 at 12:42 PM, Whimsy said:

This is exactly how I feel about her, too. 

Me too. He was wrong to cheat, but he DID make an effort to separate and get out of the marriage once he was "caught." Everyone in this scenario had choices to make: Mark chose to cheat and then to divorce Jennair, Mistress chose to cheat on HER husband (but then did divorce him), and Wife chose to resort to murder/suicide. They all played some part in the tragedy that happened, but Jennair's part was way bigger than what the other two did. Is Mark a smarmy douchebag? Yes. I don't like him, but Jennair's choices hurt a shit ton of people (family, friends, co-workers, etc) and Mark will have to live the rest of his life knowing that even though she was responsible, she was reacting to something he did. That sucks, too. None of these folks seemed particularly likable, but that doesn't mean any of them deserved what happened.

[Mrs. Hanson]

On 9/8/2019 at 12:35 PM, tobeannounced said:

And what kind of narcissist sets this train wreck in motion and then shamelessly appears on a national TV show to hawk his impending book? And what the hell is a writing coach or whoever that lady was? Is that the new term for "ghost writer"? Seems like they were just trying to generate publisher interest. Yuck.

I am late to the party on this trio but I had heard so much about it and after it was over I felt rage towards Mark and Meredith and a bit less for Jennair.  I truly believe she was in a psychotic break with reality.  I am not defending her, she murdered someone, let's not lose sight of that tragedy.  But look, she had listening devices in all his clothes, was transcribing the dialogue, putting on wigs, breaking into her house and taking pictures of the garbage?  That is just not stalkerish, that is not in the same reality as the rest of us.  I wish someone would have put her in a three day hold in a psych ward.  Mark is gross as he willingly had an affair with his boss, Meredith was gross as she was sleeping with her subordinate while married herself and now Mark wants to write a book???  He seemed to relish talking about the whole thing a wee bit too much.  Way to go for Jennair's family and Meredith's family.  Your wife was in a city with no job, no family, no friends, no nothing, has PTSD and you go bone a young woman who again, was YOUR BOSS and married.  So gross.  He should consider himself lucky he was not there, she would have taken him out, too.  Hard to feel pity for the jerk as he is driving around in his $80,000 car as well.

[Melina22]

I really enjoyed the show about Siegfried and Roy. It was different, and thankfully no one was murdered. So interesting. 

[Whimsy]

21 hours ago, Melina22 said:

I really enjoyed the show about Siegfried and Roy. It was different, and thankfully no one was murdered. So interesting. 

It was a nice change of pace from the murders, but it still infuriated me.  The breeding of those white tigers- there should be criminal charges for that IMO.  I was so frustrated when Sigfried was asked about the AZA (??  acronym may be wrong) group being concerned about the continual breeding and he didn't even answer the question.  He deflected saying they were upset about them being in captivity.  Also, there's no way there is enough space in this "sanctuary" for all of those large cats.  They need miles and miles to be able to roam, run and hunt.  And yes, I am morally opposed to all zoos, aquariums, etc that keeps animals in captivity.  If you want to see an exotic animal, go to their habitat and see them, watch the National Geographic channel, read books or even google.  They're not meant to be entertainment for humans.  I was surprised that those tigers never went after any audience members!

[Melina22]

19 minutes ago, Whimsy said:

They're not meant to be entertainment for humans.  I was surprised that those tigers never went after any audience members!

I can guarantee I would never have attended one of their shows. Not because of moral qualms, because honestly, there are plenty of humans who would have happily traded places with those tigers and the life they led. (Not so much now that they're confined of course.) So I don't personally think the big cats were inhumanely or cruelly treated, anymore than my dog or cat are.  YMMV. 

But seriously! Huge lions and tigers inches from rows of humans, with just a small leash holding them? And as we saw, no method planned for something going disastrously wrong. No dart gun, or injection, or rifle, or... anything. They had to use a fire extinguisher! 

Due to skill and luck, nothing bad happened for years, but it was always a possibility. What if instead of attacking Roy, the tiger had leapt into the audience? 

It reminds me of the movie Grizzly Man. (Not a recommendation. It was traumatizing). But it was the same situation. A man became so certain of his ability to understand and somehow control grizzlies that it eventually led to his and his girlfriend's horrifying deaths. He wasn't evil at all, but hubris led to the inevitable end. 

[RedheadZombie]

1 hour ago, Melina22 said:

I can guarantee I would never have attended one of their shows. Not because of moral qualms, because honestly, there are plenty of humans who would have happily traded places with those tigers and the life they led. (Not so much now that they're confined of course.) So I don't personally think the big cats were inhumanely or cruelly treated, anymore than my dog or cat are.  YMMV. 

But seriously! Huge lions and tigers inches from rows of humans, with just a small leash holding them? And as we saw, no method planned for something going disastrously wrong. No dart gun, or injection, or rifle, or... anything. They had to use a fire extinguisher! 

Due to skill and luck, nothing bad happened for years, but it was always a possibility. What if instead of attacking Roy, the tiger had leapt into the audience? 

It reminds me of the movie Grizzly Man. (Not a recommendation. It was traumatizing). But it was the same situation. A man became so certain of his ability to understand and somehow control grizzlies that it eventually led to his and his girlfriend's horrifying deaths. He wasn't evil at all, but hubris led to the inevitable end. 

People may be envious of the lives those wildcats lived, but that's because they're, you know, humans.  Dogs and cats have been domesticated for a thousand or so years so I don't think the comparison fits here.  The only saving grace, for me, is that when a human cost occurred, it was to one of those fools who caused this problem.

Regarding Grizzly Man, I agree about traumatizing.  For those who don't know, the camera was running during the attack with the lens cap on.  The scene that still sticks with me is the reaction of his friend as she listens to the tape.  The girlfriend trying to beat the bear off and then when Timothy finally tells her he's going to die and run.  I do resent him for putting his poor girlfriend, who said she was afraid of the bears, in this situation.  And she died because instead of immediately running she tried to save Timothy.

Edited to add - The friend didn't actually listen to the tape but watched the face of the director as he listened to it on headphones.  He told the friend she shouldn't listen to it and to destroy it.

Edited September 29, 2019 by RedheadZombie
Correction.

[Whimsy]

1 hour ago, Melina22 said:

I can guarantee I would never have attended one of their shows. Not because of moral qualms, because honestly, there are plenty of humans who would have happily traded places with those tigers and the life they led. (Not so much now that they're confined of course.) So I don't personally think the big cats were inhumanely or cruelly treated, anymore than my dog or cat are.  YMMV. 

But seriously! Huge lions and tigers inches from rows of humans, with just a small leash holding them? And as we saw, no method planned for something going disastrously wrong. No dart gun, or injection, or rifle, or... anything. They had to use a fire extinguisher! 

Due to skill and luck, nothing bad happened for years, but it was always a possibility. What if instead of attacking Roy, the tiger had leapt into the audience? 

It reminds me of the movie Grizzly Man. (Not a recommendation. It was traumatizing). But it was the same situation. A man became so certain of his ability to understand and somehow control grizzlies that it eventually led to his and his girlfriend's horrifying deaths. He wasn't evil at all, but hubris led to the inevitable end. 

Yes!  I saw that too and that's what I always think of!  Truly horrifying.

[LakeGal]

I did see Siegfreid & Roy one time I was in Vegas.  It was a very over the top performance.  We were quite close and all the animals on stage was quite the experience.  I have always loved magic so that was the reason we went.  I found there was always so much going on at once that at times you did not know where to look.   Of course that is part of the trick.  Keep everyone distracted and you do not see the magic tricks.  I remember Roy saying it was the white tiger's first show.  Of course he said that at all the shows.  Before the show started they had people running around the audience in costume interacting with everyone.  One of them put a small white tiger sticker on my face.    

[Melina22]

1 hour ago, RedheadZombie said:

Edited to add - The friend didn't actually listen to the tape but watched the face of the director as he listened to it on headphones.  He told the friend she shouldn't listen to it and to destroy it.

Oh I forgot that part. Werner Herzog, right? Haunting. Like a real life horror movie. 

A classmate of mine in college lost her brother and girlfriend to a grizzly attack. They were asleep in their tent when the grizzly tore it open. They couldn't unzip the sleeping bag fast enough to run, although even if they had, they might still have died. Watching Grizzly Man brought back horrible memories of her recounting the story. 

15 minutes ago, LakeGal said:

I did see Siegfreid & Roy one time I was in Vegas.  It was a very over the top performance.  We were quite close and all the animals on stage was quite the experience

Wow! Even though I'm sure I would have avoided the show out of fear, I can totally understand how wondrous it must have been. I'm sure the thousands of shows they did before the "accident" brought a huge amount of pleasure and wonder to people. Just watching those gorgeous animals on TV made me feel good - I can't imagine the thrill of seeing them from a few feet away.

And their body language (the tigers) seemed very relaxed and unstressed, which was vital to the show. Seeing those huge white tigers acting exactly like their housecats must have made people so happy, even though it was a completely false illusion. 

Was it Dateline or 20/20 that told the story of the chimpanzee who was raised like a human baby? He responded much like one too, until at about 2, he suddenly turned on the handler who loved him, and tried to kill her. She said she looked in his eyes as he attacked and realized, "This is a wild animal, not a human. He doesn't love me. He wants to kill me." She was shaken. 

I won't relate the rest but it was a tragedy all round, including for the poor chimp who couldn't fit in with chimps or people. 

Oh boy, now I'm depressed. I'm going to go watch some David Attenborough. Maybe watch otters happily playing in the wild. 😊

[OpalNightstream]

Omg the 2020 producer Brooke Stangeland has the worst vocal fry! She’s the producer, you’d think she’d have a lot of say in how she comes out in this piece. I guess she’s completely unaware of how her voice sounds to others.

[mamadrama]

On 9/29/2019 at 2:32 PM, LakeGal said:

I did see Siegfreid & Roy one time I was in Vegas.  It was a very over the top performance.  We were quite close and all the animals on stage was quite the experience.  I have always loved magic so that was the reason we went.  I found there was always so much going on at once that at times you did not know where to look.   Of course that is part of the trick.  Keep everyone distracted and you do not see the magic tricks.  I remember Roy saying it was the white tiger's first show.  Of course he said that at all the shows.  Before the show started they had people running around the audience in costume interacting with everyone.  One of them put a small white tiger sticker on my face.    

I also saw them while I was in Vegas. I visited the Secret Garden twice. I know it's not a popular opinion now, but I'm glad I saw them when I did. At the time, I was 19 and enjoying it as a crazy, interesting experience. In hindsight it's become a cultural and time-locked experience that won't ever be replicated. As an adult 20 years later, I have different opinions about the animals and how they were kept. At the time, however, I never once felt unsafe and I was mesmerized. 

[Melina22]

I'm watching the Over My Dead Body episode and I'm shocked how much Wendy, the wife, resembles Elizabeth Holmes of Theranos fame. 

[BusyOctober]

I hope Wendi and her family are all indicted and found guilty of murder in the future.  They all had some level of involvement in the murder for hire plot. What a horrible bunch of people!  How entitled and arrogant they all are!  There were red flags from the start of Danny & Wendi’s relationship...her family wouldn’t have the wedding catered kosher per the groom’s wish.  Not that he should get his way because he “put his foot down”, but it sounded like it was discussed as a kosher event, then her odious family ignored the plan.  I’m sure there were plenty of other signs of incompatibility before the kids came along.

 Wendi was resentful of his religion, his career and the (downwards)move to Tallahassee as a result of his success.  What one’s spouse’s faith is and what he/she does for a living are pretty fundamental factoids/ways of life. Danny didn’t just decide to become Jewish or practice law after he met Wendi....those were both part of who he was when they started dating. 

I feel so awful for Danny’s parents.  Their ex-DIL and her trash heap of relatives erased all evidence of those kids’ father and grandparents.  I hope when the kids get older, they find out what evil, criminal, vapid, selfish, inhuman assholes their mother & her family are.

[walnutqueen]

54 minutes ago, BusyOctober said:

I hope Wendi and her family are all indicted and found guilty of murder in the future.  They all had some level of involvement in the murder for hire plot. What a horrible bunch of people!  How entitled and arrogant they all are!  There were red flags from the start of Danny & Wendi’s relationship...her family wouldn’t have the wedding catered kosher per the groom’s wish.  Not that he should get his way because he “put his foot down”, but it sounded like it was discussed as a kosher event, then her odious family ignored the plan.  I’m sure there were plenty of other signs of incompatibility before the kids came along.

 Wendi was resentful of his religion, his career and the (downwards)move to Tallahassee as a result of his success.  What one’s spouse’s faith is and what he/she does for a living are pretty fundamental factoids/ways of life. Danny didn’t just decide to become Jewish or practice law after he met Wendi....those were both part of who he was when they started dating. 

I feel so awful for Danny’s parents.  Their ex-DIL and her trash heap of relatives erased all evidence of those kids’ father and grandparents.  I hope when the kids get older, they find out what evil, criminal, vapid, selfish, inhuman assholes their mother & her family are.

Those fucking Adelstons are the worst.  I hope they are all brought to justice, one way or another. Are you listening, Latin Kings?  'Cause the circumstantial evidence doesn't seem to be going anywhere in the justice system ...

[Melina22]

1 hour ago, BusyOctober said:

I hope Wendi and her family are all indicted and found guilty of murder in the future.

Just going by body language, I really got the feeling that Wendi was not directly involved. I thought her family did it as a "gift" for her. She literally said to her friend, on camera, she was relieved that her parents sounded surprised. 

Her mother was terrifying. That email where she advised her daughter to literally put on an act to punish Danny? Could she BE a worse role model? 

Anything is possible, but I don't think Wendi was behind it. Still, I'm horrified the entire family got off scot-free. Could they have paid millions to someone to make this happen? It's baffling. 

Hopefully when the grandsons get older, they'll get back in touch with Danny's family. 

Edited October 12, 2019 by Melina22

[walnutqueen]

29 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

Just going by body language, I really got the feeling that Wendi was not directly involved. I thought her family did it as a "gift" for her. She literally said to her friend, on camera, she was relieved that her parents sounded surprised. 

Her mother was terrifying. That email where she advised her daughter to literally put on an act to punish Danny? Could she BE a worse role model? 

Anything is possible, but I don't think Wendi was behind it. Still, I'm horrified the entire family got off scot-free. Could they have paid millions to someone to make this happen? It's baffling. 

Hopefully when the grandsons get older, they'll get back in touch with Danny's family. 

I think she's just a very good actress.  Spoiled little bitch was in on it up to her ears.

Edited October 12, 2019 by walnutqueen

[rmontro]

On 9/29/2019 at 2:32 PM, LakeGal said:

I remember Roy saying it was the white tiger's first show.  Of course he said that at all the shows. 

That part stuck with me.  I'm not impressed with liars.  As if having the white tiger on stage was not interesting enough, they had to embellish it and say it was the first show.  Made me all the more skeptical of their later dubious claims about the tiger supposedly saving Roy's life, and that they appeared on stage in their reunion show with the same tiger, about Roy starting to have a stroke and that's why the tiger attacked him, about how long it's been since they bred white tigers, etc etc.  

If someone is an established liar, why on earth would I believe anything they say?  It destroys their credibility.  Even if it is to make the show better (in their eyes).

This is the first episode of 20/20 I've seen in years, maybe decades.  Because I don't care to watch the murder stuff.  But this episode was very interesting.

[Whimsy]

1 hour ago, rmontro said:

That part stuck with me.  I'm not impressed with liars.  As if having the white tiger on stage was not interesting enough, they had to embellish it and say it was the first show.  Made me all the more skeptical of their later dubious claims about the tiger supposedly saving Roy's life, and that they appeared on stage in their reunion show with the same tiger, about Roy starting to have a stroke and that's why the tiger attacked him, about how long it's been since they bred white tigers, etc etc.  

If someone is an established liar, why on earth would I believe anything they say?  It destroys their credibility.  Even if it is to make the show better (in their eyes).

This is the first episode of 20/20 I've seen in years, maybe decades.  Because I don't care to watch the murder stuff.  But this episode was very interesting.

There’s no way the tiger saved Roy. There were eye witnesses who described him trying to course correct that tiger. That’s their revisionist story to either save face or because they can’t admit to themselves the tiger attacked. 

[biakbiak]

2 hours ago, Melina22 said:

Just going by body language, I really got the feeling that Wendi was not directly involved. I thought her family did it as a "gift" for her. She literally said to her friend, on camera, she was relieved that her parents sounded surprised. 

I agree. I also thought she came off as very honest even when it didn’t paint her or her family in the best light. Also, that the mother immediately called the son but didn’t appear to reach out to Wendi also gave me that feeling that they had done this without her knowledge.

I started listening to the podcast and there might be more info there that will change my mind but I found her credible. 

Edited October 12, 2019 by biakbiak

[Melina22]

4 minutes ago, biakbiak said:

started listening to the podcast and there might be more info there that will change my mind but I found her credible. 

Please remind me what the podcast is called. I think I might listen. 

[biakbiak]

3 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

Please remind me what the podcast is called. I think I might listen. 

Over My Dead Body. It’s season 1 and subtitled Tally.

[OpalNightstream]

I don’t like when these shows feature podcasters. I love podcasts but the podcasters I’ve seen/heard on this show and dateline all have that same weird vocal affect. Their speech patterns seem so overly rehearsed like they want to be the next Anderson cooper. 

[Whimsy]

16 hours ago, biakbiak said:

Over My Dead Body. It’s season 1 and subtitled Tally.

I started this podcast but I actually quit it.  I hated the family so much I didn't want to even hear about them and, the little bit I listened to, I just couldn't warm to Wendi either or sympathize with her being mad he didn't read her book, etc.  

[biakbiak]

1 hour ago, Whimsy said:

I started this podcast but I actually quit it.  I hated the family so much I didn't want to even hear about them and, the little bit I listened to, I just couldn't warm to Wendi either or sympathize with her being mad he didn't read her book, etc.  

I finished even though I didn’t like anyone involved including the victim. Even though they interviewed a lot of Dan’s friends I came away with the idea that he was a total asshole, I mean obviously he shouldn’t have been murdered but not someone I would have liked.
After listening I am more convinced that Wendi didn’t know about the murder ahead of time and probably thinks her mother and brother are guilty but purposely refused to talk about it so she would not be a part of it. After the fact. In all the wire taps not only is there none of her brothers “coded” calls there wasn’t any phone activity with her at the crucial moments. Also, when her brother and mother talk about Wendi in some of the calls they are fairly dismissive of her in a loving way but in a way that I could see them thinking they needed to “solve” this problem for her.

I continue to be absolutely perplexed about Katie not taking the deal which was complete immunity. It doesn’t make me think she is innocent I just wonder what hold, monetarily or something else, that  Charlie holds over her that she wouldn’t take the deal when she was facing life in prison and has already spent 3 plus years in jail.

Edited October 13, 2019 by biakbiak

[msrachelj]

Did anyone watch Dorothy Stratton? I don't know why they are re-hashing this 29 year old story but I watched it..Nothing new to say..I love how they REALLY played up the "she was so innocent and childlike, etc etc." as if a truly innocent girl would have no problem playing to the camera nude while laughing and really enjoying herself and having no problem being in compromising positions. . Ask yourself, if you were shy, sheltered but not mentally or emotionally compromised, would you at 18 have had no problem getting naked in front of a bunch of leches knowing you were going to be jerked off to by millions of boys and men?.Yes the murder was horrific but  that is a terrible thing unto itself..There was no need for the media going back to 1980 to have to justify it by making her out to be an erotic saint..

[slensam]

34 minutes ago, msrachelj said:

Did anyone watch Dorothy Stratton? I don't know why they are re-hashing this 29 year old story but I watched it..Nothing new to say..I love how they REALLY played up the "she was so innocent and childlike, etc etc." as if a truly innocent girl would have no problem playing to the camera nude while laughing and really enjoying herself and having no problem being in compromising positions. . Ask yourself, if you were shy, sheltered but not mentally or emotionally compromised, would you at 18 have had no problem getting naked in front of a bunch of leches knowing you were going to be jerked off to by millions of boys and men?.Yes the murder was horrific but  that is a terrible thing unto itself..There was no need for the media going back to 1980 to have to justify it by making her out to be an erotic saint..

I only saw the last half hour or so. It was a terrible thing that happened but there seems to be an assumption that she was on the cusp of greatness. I don't see it. She wasn't a great actress and the career arcs of famous Playboy Playmates was not great. Even Bogdanovich was on a downhill slide at the time. 

[Annber03]

I saw that episode, too. I'd never heard the story before. It's scary how quickly things fell apart for her in such a short period of time, and it had me wondering how she might've fared in a #MeToo type environment instead and everything. I'm honestly amazed that nobody seemed to have any concerns about him taking her to her prom given he was in his 20s. Maybe if somebody had stepped in very early on and gotten her away from him for good, things could've turned out much differently for her. What a gross slimeball he was. 

I felt for her poor roommates, too, having to stumble upon that scene as they did. I was really annoyed by that reporter who kept trying to interview her friend after that, despite the fact that said friend was clearly giving off a, "Please leave me alone" vibe. Read the body language and back off, for cripes' sakes. 

On a different note, it amused me how Dorothy was apparently old enough to:

-be able to leave not just her hometown, but her home country, to come out to L.A. and make a life for herself

-pose nude for photos and do a centerfold for a national magazine like Playboy

-work at the Playboy Mansion, wearing the outfit and everything

-be around men who were drinking, and who no doubt offered her drinks (and it wouldn't surprise me if she had a few here and there along the way as well)

...but she couldn't actually serve the alcohol to them, because of her age. Um...what? 

Bogdanovich was an interesting person, too. I mean, if he and Dorothy's sister are still on good terms to the point of being business partners, and if they'd managed to have a relationship for 13 years and all, then yay for them, I guess, but somebody of his age getting together with both Dorothy and then her sister when they were each about 20 years old just strikes me really...weird and kinda...eesh. Especially considering how much Dorothy's death seemed to affect him. It's almost like he was trying to replicate that relationship with her sister, in a way. 

Edited October 20, 2019 by Annber03

[Tabbygirl521]

I remember the Dorothy Stratten story but ended up watching this to see if I would learn anything new (not really). My main reaction was annoyance at her being called a small-town girl when she wa from Vancouver, for crying out loud. It ain’t LA, but COME ON. It just seemed like more nonsense to boost her “innocent little girl” myth. 
 

it also made me a little nuttier to watch those ‘80s-era women doing the “dumb bunny” routines, and all the emphasis on how every man wants and untouched “girl” and these grown women playing into all that so they could be manhandled at the Playboy Mansion (vomit) and get famous and have sleazeballs everywhere jerk off to their images. I had sort of forgotten that things were that much worse back then (not that man-woman interactions are necessarily that great today).

Creepy Paul was not the only pimp but damn him for his tacky wardrobe, right?

Edited October 20, 2019 by Tabbygirl521

[Coffeewinewater]

11 hours ago, msrachelj said:

Did anyone watch Dorothy Stratton? I don't know why they are re-hashing this 29 year old story but I watched it..Nothing new to say..I love how they REALLY played up the "she was so innocent and childlike, etc etc." as if a truly innocent girl would have no problem playing to the camera nude while laughing and really enjoying herself and having no problem being in compromising positions. . Ask yourself, if you were shy, sheltered but not mentally or emotionally compromised, would you at 18 have had no problem getting naked in front of a bunch of leches knowing you were going to be jerked off to by millions of boys and men?.Yes the murder was horrific but  that is a terrible thing unto itself..There was no need for the media going back to 1980 to have to justify it by making her out to be an erotic saint..

I agree, I hate that. She doesn't have to be a shy, naive or sheltered girl to  explain why her murder was not her fault.  She could be a very sexual young woman who enjoyed using her sexuality to get ahead and still her muder was not her fault.

At 15 ( 1988) I had a summer job, I was so excited about. It was cleaning a school.  I was shy and I guess sheltered.  I was working with one other girl and 2 teen boys and 3 adult janitors. The other girl was not shy and loved the dirty jokes and loved flirting with the boys. I didn't but I mostly hated the lecherous adult males making crude comments and licking their lips at us. On the  third day I told the other girl,  I don't think I'm coming back tomorrow.  She thought I was nuts, a whole empty school with all the freedom. I just thought of the idea of being in a closed door room with one of those adult males and I didn't want any part of that job. We both could have been a victims we were just different girls. I  don't like shows doing that. Pushing that narrative. 

Edited October 20, 2019 by Coffeewinewater

[Annber03]

1 hour ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

it also made me a little nuttier to watch those ‘80s-era women doing the “dumb bunny” routines, and all the emphasis on how every man wants and untouched “girl” and these grown women playing into all that so they could be manhandled at the Playboy Mansion (vomit) and get famous and have sleazeballs everywhere jerk off to their images. I had sort of forgotten that things were that much worse back then (not that man-woman interactions are necessarily that great today).

Ugh, yes, this. These men want the innocent "girl next door"...but not so innocent that they can't look at her naked and making provocative poses in a bunch of photos! 

And they don't want these women to be too sophisticated or experienced, either. 'Cause God forbid they might have their own independent thoughts and attitudes, or show up the men in those departments, or anything like that.

Men and their insecurities, I swear. 

[Coffeewinewater]

Ok, when I posted my comments earlier I hadn't watched this episode yet. I know enough about the Dorothy Stratten story that I had heard the whole shy thing.

I'm now watching and ugh, so creepy. I'm only 30 min in and the woman child phrase is disgusting.  I might have to ff. The muder alone is disgusting but to hear person after person talk about men want innocent women,  who haven't been around much...except naked in a magazine.  Ugh.

[Vixenstud]

On 10/20/2019 at 8:22 AM, slensam said:

It was a terrible thing that happened but there seems to be an assumption that she was on the cusp of greatness. I don't see it.

Exactly how I felt about Rebecca Shaeffer.  I was a regular viewer of My Sister Sam and dang, the write up after her death had her as the second coming of Debra Winger.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Vixenstud

[Melina22]

3 hours ago, Vixenstud said:

Exactly how I felt about Rebecca Shaeffer.  

I have to admit I really enjoyed Rebecca at the time, and I could have pictured her doing really well in her career if she hadn't been murdered. Then again, it's pure speculation. We'll never know if she would have had a long career or been a flash-in-the-pan.

That's why it felt like such a tragedy - all the unexplored potential. (I just watched a bio about Jim Croce and remembered having the same feeling when he died. Sadness for all the beautiful music that he never got to write and share with us.) 

[OpalNightstream]

“Untouched innocent girl” plus old man blagdonovich and old man Hefner and older man Paul was so gross. I don’t buy that she was all that innocent like they tried to make her out, but it is sad no older adult female figure was there to guide her. Having said that she also seemed to be unaffected when she said she knew her job was to make photos that made men happy.  Cmon she’s not a child, she knew exactly what the role was she was playing for fame. 

All those men were disgusting creatures. It’s like they were borderline pedophiles. 

[TVbitch]

So creepy that PB ended up marrying Dorothy Stratton's little sister as soon as she got old enough. 

On the slenderman one, that little girl is pretty precocious now. Hard way to grow up. 

Edited October 27, 2019 by TVbitch

[Showthyme]

Just finished watching the Slenderman episode. Watching the police interrogation with Morgan was chilling. Not to blame the parents but Morgan's mother was in denial about her daughter especially given the schizophrenia family history.

I am not sure if I would rather have my teenage daughter be in a mental facility or a prison. It seems that the only upside to the mental facility is the opportunity to petition for release every 6 months. 

Payton is such an inspiration. 

[pigs-in-space]

Interesting how this episode seemed more sympathetic to Anissa than Morgan, because I thought the HBO documentary took the opposite tack.

Im glad Payton is doing well.