20/20 - General Discussion

[Maharincess]

That's what I think too. He capsized and when he called to her for help, I think she either just sat there in her kayak or paddled far enough away that he couldn't get to her.

[biakbiak]

He was drunk, twice her size on a choppy river, I literally don't think she could have done anything. Calling 911 was probably his best chance.

[psychoticstate]

I saw this on Dateline or 48 Hours so I erased this without watching.  Sometimes I wish there was some copyright infringement or something so these news shows wouldn't all cover the same story unless there was some new development or update.

[psychoticstate]

I am reading Leah's book too.  Just proves that even the most independent minded persons can be utterly mindf*cked by a crazy cult.

 

I, for one, am not that impressed with Katie's "apology."  It's about as bland and generic as they come.  ROL claiming that Tom is infuriated over that is a joke.  I doubt it's causing "serious drama between the two" because I doubt the two of them have any contact.  And that apology would not constitute violating anything so . . . whatever.

 

I used to find Tom's movies entertaining but since realizing what a complete loon he is, it's hard to separate the reality from the screen.  Not to mention the fact that his movies seem to follow the basic formula of "See Tom run . . . run, Tom, run!  See Tom jump . . . jump, Tom, jump!  See something explode . . . look out, Tom!"   He'd be better served to find a good ensemble film where he can showcase his acting and where it's not a Tom Cruise film.

[Tunia]

I, for one, am not that impressed with Katie's "apology."  It's about as bland and generic as they come.  ROL claiming that Tom is infuriated over that is a joke.

 

 

Katie may have made her apology "bland and generic" because she felt she had to.  It's apparent she wanted to get a message out to Leah, but knowing what CoS and Tom could render, she took the safe route knowing that Leah would understand the deeper and underlying message.  It would follow then, that TC probably understood also and knows what Katie was hoping to say, and her unstated message is what angered him.  He read into it exactly what they all knew she really wanted to say.  Just a theory on my part, but I'm thinking "cautious" is more what Katie was going for.

[Wings]

I am just over half way through.  Tom is so much more of an ass than in the articles posted here.  Shocking.  

Edited November 10, 2015 by wings707

[NewDigs]

Don't forget the videos!

This 54 second clip of Tommy accepting some huge scieno award is just the tip of the iceberg.

This one is closer to 6 minutes but if you are a true glutton for punishment there is one that pushes 10 minutes.

And don't forget the other Tommy youtubes available directly underneath these.

It's great big ball o' crazy.

[Wings]

Don't forget the

!

This 54 second clip of Tommy accepting some huge scieno award is just the tip of the iceberg.

is closer to 6 minutes but if you are a true glutton for punishment there is one that pushes 10 minutes.

And don't forget the other Tommy youtubes available directly underneath these.

It's great big ball o' crazy.

 

i have seen those and there is even more in her book. 

[Guest]

Katie may have made her apology "bland and generic" because she felt she had to.  It's apparent she wanted to get a message out to Leah, but knowing what CoS and Tom could render, she took the safe route knowing that Leah would understand the deeper and underlying message.  It would follow then, that TC probably understood also and knows what Katie was hoping to say, and her unstated message is what angered him.  He read into it exactly what they all knew she really wanted to say.  Just a theory on my part, but I'm thinking "cautious" is more what Katie was going for.

 

I agree with this assessment.  I think if Katie toed the line of what she could say without damaging her non-disclosure* with Cruise, and he knows she did.  So he's upset about what was implied more than what was said.

 

*hypothetical non-disclosure that I assume she has. Obviously, not a proven fact.

[Kromm]

To be fair, a tabloid report of his supposed reaction could be anywhere from completely fictional to some trivial reaction exploded in importance to (of course) totally true. We really don't know.

 

Generally with Cruise, a lot of the ugly stuff has been spun or hidden, and it's all coming out years later, so I suppose that's what makes it believable. That and his treatment of his previous wives is already out there to compare against. I'm sure he has some rambling discourse including all kinds of SciHead buzzwords though.

 

Someone upthread suggested that they "doubt the two of them have any contact". I'd say that's half true, or maybe 3/4 by now. Tom's insulated, with stooges and handlers for everything. That's not even solely a Scientology thing, but also a rich bastard thing. But Scientology took on those keeper/handler roles that any big star/rich person might have.  I'm sure even with a guy as insincere seeming as Tom, there was a period as the two weaned themselves out of each other's lives where he felt compelled to talk to Katie directly on occasion. I mean although it's not clear if Suri is any part of his life now, there certainly seemed to be a point where he wasn't with Katie but still saw the kid, and at least initially I'm sure that required negotiation directly between Tom and Katie. But (on both sides, although I'm supposing Katie has less of them), I'm sure the handlers took over communication between them.

 

With normal people you might just assume there's a secret direct cellphone number, or at least a direct email to fall back on. I'm betting that's not the case with Tom Cruise. He's had people running his life for so long, I doubt the idea of NOT having people handle something even exists in his mind.

 

I guess this contrasts a lot with someone on Leah Remini's level. Seems to me while the CoS would "handle" certain things for her at the height of her stardom, she was never waited on/handled like a Princess the way a Cruise or Travolta is. Makes me wonder about Kirstie Allie, actually. Really Allie is NOT that big or rich a star. She's can't have that comprehensive a shield from reality. Seems to me any CoS bubble she's in has to be a lot more self-imposed.

[Wings]

 

.... there was a period as the two weaned themselves out of each other's lives where he felt compelled to talk to Katie directly on occasion.....

 

 

Tom was blindsided by the divorce, there was no weaning.  He had to engineer contact after he was served, I would think.  But from reading this book, he is surrounded by COS people everywhere he goes, 2 in particular go everywhere with him.  No one from COS is allowed to talk to an SP so I would like to know how that all went down.  As far as I have read he has seen Suri once shortly after the divorce.   

[Kromm]

Tom was blindsided by the divorce, there was no weaning.  He had to engineer contact after he was served, I would think.  But from reading this book, he is surrounded by COS people everywhere he goes, 2 in particular go everywhere with him.  No one from COS is allowed to talk to an SP so I would like to know how that all went down.  As far as I have read he has seen Suri once shortly after the divorce.   

They didn't go from living together to the divorce proceedings though, as I recall. Wasn't Katie basically working/living in another city? Or am I misremembering?There was a separation first I think, although of course it's more than possible that Katie represented it as something else initially. How this presented with Katie talking to Tom vs. the stooges is something we may never know.  Apart, yet married, she may have just started dealing more and more with the stooges, then the divorce formalized things (and if Tom was blindsided, maybe he just assumed things were going at a different pace where he'd be able to control ending things rather than her).

[psychoticstate]

Why didn't Katie apologize to Leah privately then?  She didn't have to issue a public apology. 

 

I don't believe Tom was blindsided by the divorce itself so much as the timing and the fact that Katie didn't follow the script.  I think he was on location filming when she filed.  It seems they were basically living apart anyhow.

 

In any event,  as far as Kirstie Alley goes, I watched her reality show from a few years back.  She's crazy as hell but quite entertaining.  She doesn't appear to be as protected and insulated as Cruise (but still very much drinks the Kool Aid.)  I think she may have been seen as more of a public liability than Cruise, at least before his meltdown.  She seemed to polarize people and I think her weight issues, along with her behavior, made people question her "religion."    I do agree that she is more self imposed than anything else. 

[Guest]

They didn't go from living together to the divorce proceedings though, as I recall. Wasn't Katie basically working/living in another city? Or am I misremembering?There was a separation first I think, although of course it's more than possible that Katie represented it as something else initially. How this presented with Katie talking to Tom vs. the stooges is something we may never know. Apart, yet married, she may have just started dealing more and more with the stooges, then the divorce formalized things (and if Tom was blindsided, maybe he just assumed things were going at a different pace where he'd be able to control ending things rather than her).

He was out of town on an extended movie shoot; I don't think it was a formal situation in any way.

[Wings]

They didn't go from living together to the divorce proceedings though, as I recall. Wasn't Katie basically working/living in another city? Or am I misremembering?There was a separation first I think, although of course it's more than possible that Katie represented it as something else initially. How this presented with Katie talking to Tom vs. the stooges is something we may never know.  Apart, yet married, she may have just started dealing more and more with the stooges, then the divorce formalized things (and if Tom was blindsided, maybe he just assumed things were going at a different pace where he'd be able to control ending things rather than her).

 

No separation.  They were living together and there were no divorce proceedings.  Her father, a divorce attorney,  set up the divorce and it was completed in a record 11 days.  Tom was working on a movie.  Total blindside.   I doubt they had personal contact of any kind.  He is not allowed any communication with "suppressive people."  Any contact must have been through a mediator with COS goons present.  

 

ETA.  Clearly Katie had some goods on him that he did not want exposed. 

Edited November 12, 2015 by wings707

[NewDigs]

My memory is easily faulty but I think she had also recently relocated to NYC to pursue other acting projects. Broadway?

[Stuffy]

My memory is easily faulty but I think she had also recently relocated to NYC to pursue other acting projects. Broadway?

I think she was in rehearsals in New York, and he was filming out of the country. I remember them being photographed a week or two before the divorce because the tabloids were doing that "were there signs" thing they do.

[Wings]

My memory is easily faulty but I think she had also recently relocated to NYC to pursue other acting projects. Broadway?

 

 

Not to my knowledge from my extensive reading, only.   Her dad got the apt for her, that I did read.  As a Scientologist she would never have been allowed to move away from Tom. She was with COS goons from the day they got together.  Her background shows nothing that would imply Broadway.

 

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0005017/

 

Rumors erupted because they do but where there is smoke there is fire, of course.  In Leah's book it is easy to see that Tom's arrogance did not allow him to see any cracks if, indeed, they were visible.  And I think they were visible to the press.  He was unable to gauge this because of his tremendous ego.  Leah's book is good.  Very good. 

Edited November 12, 2015 by wings707

[Maharincess]

I'm glad you're liking the book wings. I loved it. It was so good that I wish I wasn't finished with it.

Not only was the scientology stuff a great read, I also liked the behind the scenes look at her career.

[Kromm]

Not to my knowledge from my extensive reading, only.   Her dad got the apt for her, that I did read.  As a Scientologist she would never have been allowed to move away from Tom. She was with COS goons from the day they got together.  Her background shows nothing that would imply Broadway.

 

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0005017/

Except IMDB is the wrong place to look for Broadway appearances.

 

http://www.broadwayworld.com/people/Katie-Holmes/

Edited November 12, 2015 by Kromm

[Quof]

Katie has appeared on Broadway. And stunk up the joint.

[bosawks]

Katie has appeared on Broadway. And stunk up the joint.

 

I didn't think she was awful, just aggressively mediocre.

[ari333]

Am I misremembering or was Richard Gere a Co$ member? Then he left and they trashed him and spread it all around that he had a gerbil up his tushy. And this was pre-internet. IIRC.  The lesson seems to be that one cant leave the church unscathed. Even if they fail in actually hurting the person, the person is terrified of what might happen.   YIKES.

[Kromm]

Am I misremembering or was Richard Gere a Co$ member? Then he left and they trashed him and spread it all around that he had a gerbil up his tushy. And this was pre-internet. IIRC.  The lesson seems to be that one cant leave the church unscathed. Even if they fail in actually hurting the person, the person is terrified of what might happen.   YIKES.

I've never heard anything about Gere except that he's a Buddhist.

Admittedly he could have been one thing and then later another, but I've heard the Buddist thing about Gere for decades, so any SciHead background would have to be long long ago (in theory the CoS claims you can be some other religion and also a Scientologist, but really it never seems to work out that way).

[Jaded]

Am I misremembering or was Richard Gere a Co$ member? Then he left and they trashed him and spread it all around that he had a gerbil up his tushy. And this was pre-internet. IIRC.  The lesson seems to be that one cant leave the church unscathed. Even if they fail in actually hurting the person, the person is terrified of what might happen.   YIKES.

I learned not long ago that gerbil crap was originally circulated in the 80's about Jerry Penacoli who's a reporter on Extra now who happens to be gay. I'm willing to bet it was started by someone in the 80's who found out about that fact. Gay rumors used to circulate about Richard Gere a lot years ago. As he's faded from the spotlight somewhat those rumors did too. I don't think I ever heard of him being a Co$ member though.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Jaded

[Tunia]

Gere's been an avid follower of the Dalai Lama for at least 40 years.

http://www.lionsroar.com/richard-gere-my-journey-as-a-buddhist/

Edited November 12, 2015 by Tunia

[ari333]

Ok thanks, guys. I got my rumors wrong. Sorry.  I love Richard Gere btw.

[RedheadZombie]

Got the book for my birthday!

Something I've been meaning to mention about Kirstie Alley and don't remember reading here yet, is in regards to how petty the church and its members' can be. Kirstie was good friends with Maksim Chmerkovskiy from back when she was on Dancing with the Stars. Well Leah then went on the show and was partnered with Tony. Since Tony and Maks are best friends, Kirstie severed her friendship with Maks.

[Maharincess]

Kirsty also tried to stop the producers of Dancing with the Stars from allowing Leah to be on the show. She's a petty bitch.

[ari333]

Kirsty also tried to stop the producers of Dancing with the Stars from allowing Leah to be on the show. She's a petty bitch.

WUT? That is super petty. and I am a Kirstie fan... or was...

[Maharincess]

I used to like her too. I always thought that no matter her size, she was a pretty woman. Too bad the ugly on the inside is rotting the outside.

[Kromm]

Kirsty also tried to stop the producers of Dancing with the Stars from allowing Leah to be on the show. She's a petty bitch.

She did it either way, but whether it was done because she was petty, or because David Miscaivage ordered her to try it, is a question.

[Wings]

She did it either way, but whether it was done because she was petty, or because David Miscaivage ordered her to try it, is a question.

 

 You cannot separate the person from COS.  Scientology has its claws stuck in their skulls like a rabid squirrel.  COS is behind everything.  Kirsty is in, and in deep.  They did not make her do that, they probably asked that she do it and she willing obliged because she believes so deeply in staying away from SPs.   Or she did it with her own volition because of her beliefs. I believe the latter.   Not petty at all, it is all about the church.   

Edited November 13, 2015 by wings707

[Wings]

Don't read further if you are reading the book and don't want to be spoiled.  

 

I finished the book this morning.  Wow.   So much more information here than I knew.  Ironic that Leah was fighting to make the church better by insisting they live up to their "rules" (covenants?)  yet the leaders punished her for being against it.  Corruption doesn't even cover it. The leaders are the ones destroying the church.  And they will succeed, no doubt.   It will take time but they will.  

 

Never liked Tom Cruise but now I have a very deep and dripping revulsion for him.  Kirsty dropped Maks as a friend because he spoke with Leah.  COS does not allow you to have friends who have contact with a defector (SP).  Iron clad law of the church.  You can be punished severely  if caught.  She cannot think for herself, no one does other than people like Leah who question and subsequently leave.  This is a very serous and extreme cult. 

 

They even give money to the LAPD to act as "security."  That means to keep the law away from them.  Leah ran up against that when she filed a missing persons report for Shelly Miscavige.   She was stone walled.  Graft and corruption with police is not big news, as we know, but just another illustration of COS's need to hide what goes on.  And there is a lot to hide.  

 

I have mad love and respect for Tony Davolio, Cheryl Burke and the entire production of DWTS.  She did it right after she left and they were there for her with loving embrace and support.  Production wanted her to talk about COS but she declined.  She did agree to dancing to Katie Perry's Eye of the Tiger to show her breaking away.  

Edited November 13, 2015 by wings707

[Wings]

More info from the book. 

 

Leah had short van ride with Nichole Kidman's kids, Bella and Conner during the wedding transporting.  By a fluke in Leah found herself alone with them and no goons.  Something shocking and clearly a mistake.  She asked them if they see their mother.  Bella spoke out forcefully with a, no! she is a suppressive person!  Conner said nothing and gazed out the window,  Leah felt a deep sadness in him.  

 

Made me wonder if perhaps he may leave when he gets old enough to pull it off. 

[Kromm]

More info from the book. 

 

Leah had short van ride with Nichole Kidman's kids, Bella and Conner during the wedding transporting.  By a fluke in Leah found herself alone with them and no goons.  Something shocking and clearly a mistake.  She asked them if they see their mother.  Bella spoke out forcefully with a, no! she is a suppressive person!  Conner said nothing and gazed out the window,  Leah felt a deep sadness in him.  

 

Made me wonder if perhaps he may leave when he gets old enough to pull it off. 

His father may be no great loss if that happens, but it also means he'd be trading contact with his sister for his mother.

 

Of course we're supposed to believe there's no official requirement for disconnection anymore, but all they've done is cloak it by claiming it's voluntary.

[Wings]

His father may be no great loss if that happens, but it also means he'd be trading contact with his sister for his mother.

 

Of course we're supposed to believe there's no official requirement for disconnection anymore, but all they've done is cloak it by claiming it's voluntary.

 

Could be.  Sometimes siblings leave together.  Bella seems very strident now but Leah was, too.  

[Treehugger]

Troublemaker is #1 on New York Times bestseller list for hardcover non-fiction.  The book was a fascinating read, and it's encouraging to see that there is the continued interest in the reading public to keep sales strong.

[DkNNy79]

Thanks for the tidbits wings707.  I eventually want to read it, maybe over the holidays.

[Wings]

Troublemaker is #1 on New York Times bestseller list for hardcover non-fiction.  The book was a fascinating read, and it's encouraging to see that there is the continued interest in the reading public to keep sales strong.

 

 

Excellent news.  The more COS is exposed the sooner it will fall.  

 

I find the wildly varying statistics on the number of Scientologists reported interesting.  COS boasts 10 million, some reports say 15 million but in actuality it is probably more line 25,000. 

 

http://dangerousminds.net/comments/have_you_ever_wondered_how_many_scientologists_there_really_are1

[Kromm]

Excellent news.  The more COS is exposed the sooner it will fall.  

 

I find the wildly varying statistics on the number of Scientologists reported interesting.  COS boasts 10 million, some reports say 15 million but in actuality it is probably more line 25,000. 

 

http://dangerousminds.net/comments/have_you_ever_wondered_how_many_scientologists_there_really_are1

The number was always inflated by them, even before the mass defections. The critics/opponents in the early days were happy to not challenge the numerical claims because they wanted credit for taking down a bigger giant.  At their peak the CoS was recording every instance of a copy of Dianetics being bought as a Scientologist, and likely every copy of Battlefield Earth and that ridiculous ten volume sci-fi series that Hubbard continued to somehow "write" years after his death. They counted every person they handed out a pamphlet to, I bet. Anyone who got put on a mailing list. 

 

What's not so skewed is how rich they are. That's been underreported, not over, I think. And that a lot of that money is still intact, even with so many leaving. Admittedly not being optimized totally, since a lot of their real estate is sitting unoccupied, but nevertheless in nice, safe, generally recession proof forms.

[NewDigs]

Here's a scieno real estate eye opener.

I had no idea their holdings were so impressive. Historic buildings restored so the cult looks a like good neighbor.

What an insidious operation. Gorgeous buildings maintained and/or restored but I know that flag bldg. in Clearwater took years to build and finish and I think is still practically empty. Love how they blame "permitting" for the delays. Clearwater used to be a friendly "little" town and they now host TWO scieno monstrosities. And a bunch of little robots.

And I am stunned they were able to acquire that property in Ybor City/Tampa.

Actually I am stunned by most of their acquisitions. Much broader than I ever dreamed.

Bastards.

[Maharincess]

It took a lot of free, hard child labor to restore those buildings.

[Dahlia]

Was the spoiler posted yet that was mentioned a while back? I'd love to read it!!

[MsTree]

wings, I also want to say 'thank you' for all the interesting tidbits, as I probably won't get to read her story until after the first of the year.

[ari333]

Was the spoiler posted yet that was mentioned a while back? I'd love to read it!!

They are a few posts up if I understand correctly. They are not labeled spoiler tags per se but ARE labeled as a warning not to read further in bold if the reader does not want to be spoiled; so for me it is the same as spoiler tag thingy. Great tidbits! 

[Wings]

Was the spoiler posted yet that was mentioned a while back? I'd love to read it!!

 

 

Spoiler alert. 

This was the tid bit. 

 

Leah changed her seat to sit next to Jennifer Lopez at the wedding. She was also a few minutes late, but arrived at the same time as Tom's sister so not that late.

As punishment for "ruining the wedding" and "upsetting everybody in attendance" Leah had to have over 2 months of 12 hour days of "auditing", in which they hammer at you for hours and hours and hours asking the same questions over and over until you give the answer they want. 2 months of that shit, 12 hours a day.

Then for having "bad manners" she had to pay to stock the scientology library with Emily Post manners books she had to pay 300 thousand dollars to the church, she had to make an art project out of Tom and Katie's wedding invitation and favors then present it to them with a written apology for ruining their wedding. Then she had to buy and put together gift baskets for everybody who went to the wedding with a written apology to each of them for "destroying the wedding".

 

There are many more things in this book! 

[ari333]

Spoiler alert. 

This was the tid bit. 

 

Leah changed her seat to sit next to Jennifer Lopez at the wedding. She was also a few minutes late, but arrived at the same time as Tom's sister so not that late.

As punishment for "ruining the wedding" and "upsetting everybody in attendance" Leah had to have over 2 months of 12 hour days of "auditing", in which they hammer at you for hours and hours and hours asking the same questions over and over until you give the answer they want. 2 months of that shit, 12 hours a day.

Then for having "bad manners" she had to pay to stock the scientology library with Emily Post manners books she had to pay 300 thousand dollars to the church, she had to make an art project out of Tom and Katie's wedding invitation and favors then present it to them with a written apology for ruining their wedding. Then she had to buy and put together gift baskets for everybody who went to the wedding with a written apology to each of them for "destroying the wedding".

 

There are many more things in this book! 

 

SPOILER ALERT REFERRING TO SPOLER ALERT

 

So what awful things happened to Tom's sister for arriving at the same time?Oh, wait... But is the sister a member of the "church?" If I were Leah I'd have told them to shove it.

[walnutqueen]

Spoiler alert. 

This was the tid bit. 

 

Leah changed her seat to sit next to Jennifer Lopez at the wedding. She was also a few minutes late, but arrived at the same time as Tom's sister so not that late.

As punishment for "ruining the wedding" and "upsetting everybody in attendance" Leah had to have over 2 months of 12 hour days of "auditing", in which they hammer at you for hours and hours and hours asking the same questions over and over until you give the answer they want. 2 months of that shit, 12 hours a day.

Then for having "bad manners" she had to pay to stock the scientology library with Emily Post manners books she had to pay 300 thousand dollars to the church, she had to make an art project out of Tom and Katie's wedding invitation and favors then present it to them with a written apology for ruining their wedding. Then she had to buy and put together gift baskets for everybody who went to the wedding with a written apology to each of them for "destroying the wedding".

 

There are many more things in this book! 

 

Fucking unbelievable.  But at the same time, not really, because we've all seen what relentless undue pressure can do to, let's just say, cause an innocent person to give a false confession to police.  Multiply those interrogation hours by years of brainwashing and you've got people willing to do almost anything and everything.

[RedheadZombie]

Don't read further if you are reading the book and don't want to be spoiled.    Kirsty dropped Maks as a friend because he spoke with Leah.  COS does not allow you to have friends who have contact with a defector (SP).  

The only thing I respect about Kirstie is her children aren't famewhores. I don't think I've ever seen pictures of them, and she doesn't drag them out and parade them when she has something to promote, like most celebs do. I looked on Wikiedia, and their birth dates, occupation/college, or anything personal is absent. Only their names are listed.

  

More info from the book. 

 

Leah had short van ride with Nichole Kidman's kids, Bella and Conner during the wedding transporting.  By a fluke in Leah found herself alone with them and no goons.  Something shocking and clearly a mistake.  She asked them if they see their mother.  Bella spoke out forcefully with a, no! she is a suppressive person!  Conner said nothing and gazed out the window,  Leah felt a deep sadness in him.  

 

Made me wonder if perhaps he may leave when he gets old enough to pull it off.

I've always thought the opposite. Bella always shunned the limelight, never famewhored, and just got a cosmetology degree. Connor seems to be treated as the heir to the "church". There's that incredibly creepy picture of Tom in the throne chair, flanked by Miscavige and Connor. And while I believe that Miscavige has duped Cruise into thinking he's his right hand man, I don't doubt that Cruise thinks he and Connor are the heirs. Connor has also embraced celebrity and is frequently seen in high profile moments with his father, and uses his celebrity to get jobs as a DJ.