Gwen Cooper: Curiosity Killed Everyone Except This Cat

[Luckylyn]

I think Gwen's defining characteristic in Everything Changes is her curiosity and that continues with her throughout the show.  She always has to know.  I like that she's so intensely curious but her attitude about it is problematic for me.  It's not just that she has to know but that she feels entitled to know.  Her self-righteousness about that and things in general can make her hard to like for me.  It goes back to that Farscape quote "What makes you worse is that you think you're so much better."   I feel like she's compassionate with strangers, but self centered with those who love her. It grates that she gets rewarded despite her mistakes while everyone else suffers and/or dies.

 

Now, I want to also point out what I like about Gwen.  In addition to her curiosity, I like that she's not a yes woman.  She doesn't blindly follow Jack but pushes and questions.  I find it interesting that she seems to be a thrill junkie which is something female characters don't always get to be.  it's frustrating that the show doesn't really deal with it though.  I think her true love is Torchwood and the danger it brings her.

[ElleryAnne]

Gwen has a lot of great qualities.  I don't hate her.  I DO hate that the show turned her into the pedestal princess who every character loves and overlooks every fault in during the first three seasons.  I don't even mind her faults, myself.  I just wish she was called out on it more often.  She's the Lana Lang of Torchwood.

[catrox14]

If the show would have kept the Gwen we met in the pilot, that would have been great.  Or better yet, let Gwen change and do some shitty things, like retconning Rhys and kidnapping Jack with the intent to turn him over to people that wanted (we thought) to kill him, but then give her some damn consequences along with those rewards, you know like EVERY other character in the show.

 

That's why I grew to really dislike/borderline hate Gwen.

[indeed]

I disliked that Gwen thought she was special from the start and then everyone also treated her like she was special (when I didn't see much if anything at all to back that up)...not the way to endear me to a character.

ETA: Love the thread title, BTW. LOL

Edited May 30, 2014 by indeed

[Luckylyn]

everyone also treated her like she was special (when I didn't see much if anything at all to back that up)...not the way to endear me to a character

 

.

The whole Gwen is special thing they forced really was a disservice to the character. It made me resent rather than like her.

[catrox14]

Any chance of squeezing in Gwen "Teflon" Cooper since nothing sticks to her anyway :)

[Chip]

But a simple: "Gwen Cooper : She's WELSH" would have worked also.

[indeed]

And apparently she was all the Welsh the show needed to continue on, which is one of the reasons for knocking off Ianto--couldn't have too much Welsh for MD.

Except that there was also Rhys, and Andy, and Gwen's parents...

Sorry, is my bitter still showing through? LOL

[Luckylyn]

What some may call bitter others might call common sense.

[Luckylyn]

 

 ElleryAnne said :It really just feels like the writers couldn't allow things NOT to be about Gwen.

This quote is from Ianto's thread. 

 

That was a serious problem with the writing because Gwen had to be the center of the universe even when it didn't make sense.  The scene when Gwen sees Ianto's dead body should be about Gwen comforting Jack while grieving herself but instead Jack's comforting her, and there's no acknowledgement that Jack might be feeling intense grief.  She 's not holding or soothing him.  Meanwhile we're not supposed to notice that, and it's all about Gwen's feelings.  I still hate her "Stay for me" line to Jack at the end of COE.  Gwen who has everything standing in front of Jack who has lost everything makes his heartbreaking decision to leave under the weight of too much grief about her losing her friend. 

 

I promised myself I wouldn't use this thread to only bash Gwen.  I don't mind her flaws.  It's the shows refusal to acknowledge the flaws that makes her a problematic character for me. 

Edited May 30, 2014 by Luckylyn

[Swansong]

 

Except that there was also Rhys, and Andy, and Gwen's parents...

Basically all Gwen's crew. 

 

I feel like I like the idea of her more than the actual results. Like when people are talking about her I start thinking, yeah I like that character, but when I'm watching her most of the time I'm thinking 'ugh, show, really'.TKKS is such an exercise in no-one being allowed to see her as anything other than oh so special to the point of silliness.  Like Suzie, who met her for a few minutes before she killed herself just knows after a further few minutes in her presence that she's just so beloved and amazing and feels so inadequate in her presence. I feel like RTD and the writers were so enamoured with EM that it really coloured how they wrote Gwen. And as Indeed said, most of the time people acted like she walked on water over stuff that wasn't even all that impressive so it made them look kind of moronic too especially Jack who was the worst offender.

 

It also annoyed me that not only were her experiences and griefs all about her, but often the other characters' griefs and experiences also became all about her in one way or another. It was like an event could rarely happen without her having to be inserted in some way. Often it felt like the other characters, even Jack were just there to stand in opposition to her or to her and were mere props for her journey.

 

I feel like I should say something positive. I too liked that she was strong and wasn't just a yes woman and actually challenged Jack. But on the other hand I think that only really worked up to a point. Because she'd challenge him, insist she knew better, get things entirely wrong, usually leading to someone else's death and her almost getting herself killed and needing to be rescued, rinse repeat so that I think she ended up seeming more arrogant and recklessly willfull rather than the smart courageous woman they were clearly going for. Jack definitely needed someone to challenge him, but I wish it had amounted to more than simply accusing him and blaming him for things at the jump more often than it did. I liked that she was confident and didn't take any bullshit, but I also wish they'd made her, I'm not even sure this is the right thing, smarter/ less naive? at being a cop. Like a lot of the time I had to remind myself, that she'd been a cop before joining Torchwood. Or maybe I mean I wish it had informed her character more. Either way it felt like sometimes it seemed like they were so determined to make her the wide-eyed ingenue to Jack's world-wearied seen it all before intergalactic traveller that she sometimes came off as kind of dumb. 

 

 

That was a serious problem with the writing because Gwen had to be the center of the universe even when it didn't make sense.  The scene when Gwen sees Ianto's dead body should be about Gwen comforting Jack while grieving herself but instead Jack's comforting her, and there's no acknowledgement that Jack might be feeling intense grief.  She 's not holding or soothing him.  Meanwhile we're not supposed to notice that, and it's all about Gwen's feelings.  I still hate her "Stay for me" line to Jack at the end of COE.

I think the worst part is the way the show it's written we're actually supposed to find Jack selfish for thinking maybe he couldn't go on after everything he had gone through. Like they literally destroy him, but we're supposed to see that Gwen's grief supposedly outweighs his so he's the one who needs to buck up and get on with things so she feels ok. I think that moment really crystallizes the show's entire mentality with regards to Gwen. In the end its all about her. Never mind that if the situation was reversed and Gwen had lost Rhys and didn't think she could go on if Jack had expected her to not only still carry on, but be there for him, we'd definitely be expected to consider him selfish. 

Edited May 30, 2014 by Swansong

[Captanne]

Thread title addition:  "But we can dream, can't we?"

[itsmeyousee]

I don't know if it's  supposed to be a Gwen thing or the writers pay no attention to what they are writing. But is it just me or does she always contridict herself ?

 

The question comes from Swansong watching of Ghost machine, where Gwen does tell Jack not the push the buttons it's dangerous but then she takes the thing home with her.

 

It reminded me of the radio play Submission which i was listening to a couple of weeks ago aside from the normal one in which Gwen tells Carly  that she is sorry that everyone died at TW1 but this is TW 3 obviously forgotten about Tosh and Owen or even Suzie and has no idea how Jack took charge of 3. But she says to the "Alien/human" thing that she wouldn't sacrifice anyone to save Rhys but she did in End Of Days, people died in the shadow of the monster.

[Luckylyn]

I think Gwen being a hypocrite has been well established on the show, but the show doesn't acknowledge it.

[Dizzy76]

So now that's it's the holidays I have a little more time to comment a bit more on things I find interesting.  For Gwen, the thing I found interesting (but not surprising in the least) is that the extra stuff for Gwen has her not only with Owen for a one off after Diane came and went but that she sort of confesses to Owen that she may have started seeing Rhys just before things ended with some other guy she was dating back in the day.  I know some of you (if not all) may have assumed that things had still been going on with Owen and Gwen at this point but for some reason, I just thought that things had stopped once Diane came into the picture.

I just do not get how they could craft back story and show storyline for Gwen in the way they did, give her no consequences for the bad choices or wrong actions, but STILL expect me to think her awesome and someone to root for time and time again.  I will admit that after everything they have convinced me that she is somehow special.  Just not the good kind of special.

 

Instant Message with Owen about old boyfriend
(scroll down to the Splott section - right under Ianto's A history of Splott)

 

Instant Message between Gwen and Owen during Combat period

(located after pic called Owen's Cover)

Edited July 4, 2014 by Dizzy76

[Swansong]

The impression given is that the affair is still on-going, but maybe not seeing each other as much. I mean she doesn't notice that he hooked up with Diane for a week. I'm pretty sure they end it in Combat after they have their conversation in the car and nothing on the show suggests it's on-going after that. Isn't that why she retcons Rhys?

Edited July 4, 2014 by Swansong

[Dizzy76]

Yeah, she retcons Rhys but I just thought it was because she finally felt guilty.  I don't know why I thought nothing had happened once Diane came along.  I mean, I know that she was surprised about Diane but I guess I just thought she was being "Gwen" and thinking that even though her and Owen had chilled for a bit, he was still sitting around waiting for her to have time for a hook-up.  Like, they were all busy with the newcomers and so she was just assuming that there wasn't time for anything.  Does that make sense?

 

But even after she finds out about Diane and that Owen is handling it very badly she still manages to fall into bed with him again.  But before seeing that IM, I just assumed that the events of Combat made her realize that Owen wasn't really into her for more than just a tumble and that she had really jeopardized things with Rhys for someone who hadn't really cared for her.

I have no clue if what's in my head (or what was in my head) is coming out clearing with words.

Edited July 4, 2014 by Dizzy76

[Swansong]

I can see why it's not that clear. The show does tend to have a habit of dropping story threads that don't directly have anything to do with the current episode plot. OOT does make it seem like the affair was over and honestly until they brought it up again in the car in Combat I assumed it was over too. But this is the convo they have in the car:

 

GWEN: Tosh mentioned you and Diane ... Did you ...

OWEN: I didn't want her to go. She went.

GWEN: Why are we still doing this, me and you?

OWEN: Fine. Let's not. I was getting bored of your fuck-tricks, anyway.

(Owen gets out of the car and slams the door.)

 

I guess that fits with the IM's suggestion that they were still having sex at the beginning of Combat.

 

I just read the transcript where she drugs Rhys and she  tells him the affair is going to stop not that it has stopped. Make of that what you will.lol.

Edited July 4, 2014 by Swansong

[Dizzy76]

Oh, wow awesome!  Case solved, lol!  Yeah, I forgot the exact words for both her conversation with Owen and the scene of her retconning Rhys.  Both make it clear that it is still going on in some fashion. 

 

Thanks for hunting down the transcript, Swansong.

[itsmeyousee]

I think Gwen being a hypocrite has been well established on the show, but the show doesn't acknowledge it.

I think that was my thing Luckylyn. Every writer puts it in the show or Radio Plays or Books, so it's meant to be a Gwen trait ? But since she is the hero, it can't be brought up ? Then it's sorta why write it ? As a constant with Gwen, it's very confusing LOL

[itsmeyousee]

A question popped in my head after chatting about TKKS and that it's Gwen that insists on using the Glove and it all goes bad. Is there every a time in which Gwen insists on something and it works out working ?

[Luckylyn]

I'm trying to think.  What times was it Gwen's idea that saved the day?  The thing about Torchwood in general is that they can be major fuck ups at times and so the moments where they get things right get forgotten because I'm too busy venting about stuff that isn't working on the show.   

 

Gwen certainly spoke her mind and acted as an authority even in situations she didn't really have a clue about.  I think her intentions are good for the most part other than the cheating, retconning, and the hypocrisy.

[Swansong]

 

Is there every a time in which Gwen insists on something and it works out working ?

 

Random Shoes? She insists they investigate Eugene's death because it's sort of connected to Torchwood, which I guess it is, vaguely, thanks to the eye in his stomach. Mostly because Owen's kind of a crap doctor in this episode. But I suppose if he'd been professional it would have been a very short episode. There are probably others, but I can't really remember.  Good thing we're doing this rewatch.

 

 

Gwen certainly spoke her mind and acted as an authority even in situations she didn't really have a clue about.

The problem for me is she never seems to re-evaluate how she responds to a situation no matter how often it all goes wrong or people are hurt by it. It's as if things have to end badly before she decides maybe I don't have a clue after all. But then the next time it's back to the same old same old. I think the show as a rule seems to work on the premise that good intentions automatically mitigate the bad results and I'm not sure I always agree. Not when the consequences so often are people getting killed. It starts to become a bit off-putting.

 

I've always found it a bit weird that one of the big conceits of the series is that Gwen is needed at Torchwood because she reminds the team that the victims matter and yet the show itself never seems to act like the people who end up becoming collateral damage often thanks to Torchwood do really matter. 

[itsmeyousee]

Random Shoes? She insists they investigate Eugene's death because it's sort of connected to Torchwood, which I guess it is, vaguely, thanks to the eye in his stomach. Mostly because Owen's kind of a crap doctor in this episode. But I suppose if he'd been professional it would have been a very short episode. There are probably others, but I can't really remember.  Good thing we're doing this rewatch.

 

 

 

 

I wasn't sure about that one , it's probably the least watched ep for me so my memory could be really bad LOL. But i thought Jack okayed Gwen investigation cause it was quiet and it wasn't until she takes off without telling one what she is doing that Jack gets more pissy about it. But i guess it does fit.

 

I was more thinking about things like TKKS where the Team is investigating whatever and Gwen is determined to do it her way , Jack backs down and it doesn't go bad or worse then it already was. Even when Jack agrees for reasons unknown to mankind LOL like Countrycide or OOT, why talking to the nutter would help ? And how she could take Emma home and not hurt Rhys with her lies ? I would have thought impossible, but hey Jack has faith or he is brain dead LOL

 

But isn't it odd that for the hero of the show that we are struggling to remember when Gwen gets it right LOL

[Luckylyn]

I've always found it a bit weird that one of the big conceits of the series is that Gwen is needed at Torchwood because she reminds the team that the victims matter and yet the show itself never seems to act like the people who end up becoming collateral damage often thanks to Torchwood do really matter. 

It always bugs me that at the end of EOD none of them seem to care about the innocent people who got killed after they opened the rift and unleashed Abaddon.  There's no sense of guilt or concern about it at all.  Instead of sitting by Jack's bedside,   Gwen I guess for supposed to bring empathy that was supposed to be missing but she's just as thoughtless as the others about collateral damage.   She quickly gets corrupted by the teach and starts abusing it too.   The only thing that keeps Gwen different from the others is that she has Rhys outside of Torchwood and that doesn't last because she brings him into the danger.   It never sat right with me that the show's message seemed to be that Gwen is special because she has a boyfriend.  Somehow not having a relationship made the others less?   Why didn't Jack and Ianto's involvement make them special too?   In the end, Gwen isn't really different from the others except she always wins.  That's the only thing that makes her special.  She can fuck up like the others but will never pay for it like the others.

[indeed]

Why didn't Jack and Ianto's involvement make them special too?

Because Jack and Ianto were both Torchwood agents and couldn't relate to being "normal"/"ordinary" like Gwen with one foot in the real world through Rhys (and because their relationship didn't count until some DRAMA! was needed)?

[Captanne]

I always got the feeling that Gwen's relationship with Rhys was only considered "normal" because it was the reason Jack hired her in the first place.  Otherwise, it was just another dropped and ignored thread.  It's kept alive (justly so) because fans have memories and we talk about it.  I'm not sure the show ever specifically mentioned it again.

 

So, since Jack and Ianto's relationship became part of the show's plot line later, they ended up in the same boat as the Gwen/Rhys relationship.  They would have been considered equally normal if the subject had ever come up again.

 

At least that's how I recall it.

[Swansong]

It's not really dropped.  It's pretty much the reason Rhys continues to exist on the show. Granted it stops making sense once Rhys becomes involved in Torchwood business, but the show still holds it as a truth. And her 'you don't understand what it's like to be me' speeches wouldn't exactly be all that effective if the team did supposedly understand what it's like to have people in your life you can't share this aspect of their life with. Like family and close friends.

[catrox14]

My biggest complaint about Gwen is how she never ever paid for the retcon. And the show opens it up for discussion precisely when they decide to bring Rhys into the fold because Gwen won't take away Rhys' saving her because it was so special to him. That's most disgusting egregious retcon this show ever did. They literally made Jack look like the bad guy for wanting to retcon Rhys when Gwen had already done it herself!  I just never got over that.  She could have told Jack, NO I won't retcon him because I did once and I really regret that I did it, and I'm an asshole because I did it...but NOPE. Not a fucking word. 

Edited July 27, 2014 by catrox14

[itsmeyousee]

I thought Gwen was supposed to be special, cause she was supposed to make Jack human again and remember the people that get caught up in TW stuff. And for that to happen Jack needs Gwen to stay with Rhys cause Rhys keeps her normal.

 

And yes i can't believe i just wrote that nonsensical sentence LOL. Because how Jack expected Gwen to do this while Jack has had her lying on a daily basis to Rhys , no idea in the world LOL

[catrox14]

I can't fault Jack for the lying because wll it's the weird job they have and they do have to lie to people for many reasons.  But the fact that the show didn't have Gwen own up to her mind wiping of her own boyfriend was so stupid. It never made a bit of sense. I wish they would have just let Gwen admit that one mistake, let her have the consequence and then move on. 

[Swansong]

I fault Jack because he's the one who makes such a big deal about it. Even more than Gwen.

[catrox14]

I fault Jack because he's the one who makes such a big deal about it. Even more than Gwen.

 

Gwen retcon'd Rhys long before Jack was worried about what Rhys would know and she did it SOLELY because she cheated on Rhys. Jack never used retcon other than for professional reasons because it would harm a mission or put someone in danger.  So no, I can't put this on Jack at all.

[itsmeyousee]

No i didn't mean it was a bad thing that Gwen had to lie about her job, they all did. So Gwen wasn't anything special there and nothing to blame Jack about, i'm sure Ianto didn't tell his sister what he did for a job while at TW1 either.

 

But Jack seemed to put this "specialness" about Gwen back onto her relationship with Rhys and that kept Gwen normal and Jack needed Gwen normal and special for himself in a personal way or that's how i saw it anyway. But how was Gwen and Rhys relationship supposed to work if Gwen lies 24/7 to Rhys. I don't get how Jack thought it would work.

 

As for Gwen herself she has no problem lying to Rhys, i mean she does it before she joins TW, when there is no reason or job to hide from him. Let alone about the affair with Owen cause that's not Jack or TW job related that's just Gwen. Same with the retcon, fine to use on Rhys when she wants something and also fine not to use on Rhys when she wants something else.

[catrox14]

Ah, I see what you mean Mousey.  Yeah I never understood Jacks' obsession with Gwen's normal life. And you're right, Gwen lied to Rhys before even Jack knew it.  She's been a liar all along.  Gods....I really don't like Gwen

[itsmeyousee]

I never understood why Jack thought it could be normal. I mean Jack wants to obsess fine, obsess away. But how Jack thought lying 24/7 was normal ? not so much LOL.

 

I dislike it when they make Jack thick or stupid or whatever term to fit Gwen in and you are left going WTF at Jack. It should at the least fit with who Jack is, whether i like what's been said or not LOL

 

As for Gwen i have been listening to the Audio Books and Border Prince has anyone listen to or read that one. Because in it Gwen is having another affair with someone at TW. But it has an interesting chat with her and her new guy about Rhys and she basically says . She wouldn't leave Rhys unless she knew it was love and permanent. That she has been with Rhys for too long to hurt him unless she was sure that the other person loved her. And i was like WOW seriously, and we are still supposed to think this chick even has a "heart", talk about cold blooded.

[Swansong]

 

Gwen retcon'd Rhys long before Jack was worried about what Rhys would know and she did it SOLELY because she cheated on Rhys. Jack never used retcon other than for professional reasons because it would harm a mission or put someone in danger.  So no, I can't put this on Jack at all.

 

I fault Jack for acting like being with Rhys is what gives her Gwen-ness and insisting that Gwen-ness is important for both him and Torchwood, but then expecting that relationship to stay healthy when she basically has to lie to Rhys and put both the demands of Torchwood and Jack ahead of it. He's the one who makes it a big issue from the get-go, even before he knows much about Gwen let alone her relationship with Rhys.

 

Gwen doesn't retcon Rhys because of anything to do Torchwood. She does it because she wants to get absolution without suffering any real consequences for a personal transgression. I agree that's all on her. Meat seems to forget or doesn't really want to acknowledge that while Rhys is worried she's sleeping with Jack, everyone else knows she did in fact sleep with Owen and we know she already retconned Rhys to hide that fact. So I also agree that not acknowledging in anyway that she was more than happy to retcon Rhys for even less compelling reasons than Jack has kills any righteous nobility they seem to be going for with her. At least it does for me. Especially when she doesn't even seem to respect him enough not to be eyeing up some other bloke while she's supposedly snogging him. She just ends up coming off like the worst kind of hypocrite.

[Luckylyn]

I don't think Gwen ever had to lie to Rhys.  All she had to say was that her job required confidentiality, and she could never discuss it with him.   She made it more complicated than it had to be.

 

I will always roll my eyes at the scene in Something Borrowed where she insists there will be no lies in her marriage meanwhile Rhys is still clueless about Gwen's affair with Owen and the retcon.

[Swansong]

Well I think the show makes it more complicated than it needs to be. Especially when it can't seem to make up it's mind about whether people aren't supposed to know about Torchwood at all, not just what they do. I mean presumably Gwen can't even tell Rhys she works for Torchwood. But in Day One when they text her to come into work they text Torchwood. I suppose it's just lucky Rhys isn't the type of person to sometimes answer someone else's phone.  So does Rhys think she still works for the police force until Meat? They also give the impression that Gwen is the first time Torchwood has ever had to deal with an agent either coming in with a spouse or partner or marrying someone while on the job. Certainly Jack acts like it is and he's been around almost as long as Torchwood has. I mean the challenge of having to juggle job and personal life doesn't become less of a challenge or less of a personal experience just because other people might have gone through or are going through the same thing, but apparently the show thinks so.

[Dizzy76]

Itsmeyousee, I haven't listened to that but I have heard about that moment.  I remember thinking that as much as they were trying to paint Gwen as this "good" person, here was yet another instance where they were writing her in a way that was very counterproductive to their cause.  It seems that not one form of Torchwood media (books, tv show, web content, etc.) escaped this kind of writing/picture painting.

 

Speaking on the issue of how did Jack expect Gwen to "no let it drift" with Rhys when he knew that she would have to keep Torchwood secret and hidden from him, I've had this conversation with others before.  At first, I was very much of the opinion that Jack was just an idiot but after much discussion, I believe that Luckylyn has a very valid point.  No one ever said that Gwen had to out and out lie to Rhys about what she did or did not do at work.  She could have easily told him that she was working special ops and that the work they did fell under the official secrets act and so she couldn't talk to him about anything specific but that she was proud do be doing something that was helping to protect him and their community.  That way, if she had a bad day at work, she could just say that without worrying that Rhys was going to ask her something she couldn't give an answer to.  There needn't have been any mention of aliens or out of this world tech or even the name Torchwood.  And after coming back from the cannibals incident, she could have easily shared with him that although she didn't think she could talk about the specific details of that outing (although I don't really know why she couldn't talk a bit more about that since it wasn't alien/Torchwood related), she just got reminded that humans can be really horrible to each other sometimes.

 

See, easy peasy.

 

I think the real truth is exactly as Swansong says: the show made the entire issue more complicated than it needed to be.  I assume they did so because they felt like they needed drama and tension and that it would also help us feel a bit of sympathy for Gwen.

[itsmeyousee]

 

 

I will always roll my eyes at the scene in Something Borrowed where she insists there will be no lies in her marriage meanwhile Rhys is still clueless about Gwen's affair with Owen and the retcon.

But i do love Rhys's "pfft" at that statement LOL he clearly thinks Gwen is talking rubbish. We might need a Rhys topic .

 

As far as Gwen's lying goes, i think there is two different things are happening but Gwen uses the "Torchwood " umbrella for any crappy thing she does which includes lying to Rhys.

 

But professionally, they all must lie about their jobs, Gwen says Special Ops being a former PC i guess. Ianto says Civil Servant since most of what he did was office work. We never got to find out about Tosh or Owen but i would presume Tosh is just a computer expert for whomever and Owen Doctor for whomever or in reseach.

 

But my problem with Jack is he as the Boss lets Gwen take home work eg Emma OOT or allowing Gwen to bring Rhys into TW and lock him in a cell EOD so he is encouraging the lies. Yet Jack on a purely personal basis sees Gwen and Rhys relationship as the thing that makes her normal/special and he wants to keep her that way, yet doesn't see all the lies as a problem for a normal relationship. And if we throw Gwen's affair with Owen into the mix that Jack also knows all about, how is anyones name can Jack still think up stupid things like "don't let it drift". Surely Gwen has drifted waaaaaaay of course LOL

[Dizzy76]

Well, if Jack had actually called Gwen out on her "drifting" or acknowledged that she wasn't any better than the rest of them and was treating her normal life (aka Rhys) like an old toy that she only thought about and played with when it suited her, then that would have meant that the show and it's writers were admitting that Gwen had faults that weren't adorably human but just plain old bad personality traits like most of us schmucks.

 

I firmly believe that the other characters on the show never said anything to Gwen about her behavior because we weren't suppose to think of her behavior as bad.  And on the rare occasions when they did have Rhys or Andy call her out on something, it was always written in a way that made it seem as if they wanted us to feel bad for her or side with her.  That's how I saw those scenes at least.  And honestly, I always sided with the boys.

[indeed]

It seems that not one form of Torchwood media (books, tv show, web content, etc.) escaped this kind of writing/picture painting.

I think Gwen fared pretty well in the radio plays. I like her in them.

[itsmeyousee]

Well, if Jack had actually called Gwen out on her "drifting" or acknowledged that she wasn't any better than the rest of them and was treating her normal life (aka Rhys) like an old toy that she only thought about and played with when it suited her, then that would have meant that the show and it's writers were admitting that Gwen had faults that weren't adorably human but just plain old bad personality traits like most of us schmucks.

 

I firmly believe that the other characters on the show never said anything to Gwen about her behavior because we weren't suppose to think of her behavior as bad.  And on the rare occasions when they did have Rhys or Andy call her out on something, it was always written in a way that made it seem as if they wanted us to feel bad for her or side with her.  That's how I saw those scenes at least.  And honestly, I always sided with the boys.

Like i mentioned Jack no idea what he was thinking or how he thought Gwen could or was having a normal relationship. But i am always flummoxed by what exactly the writers wanted me to feel about Gwen. They clearly make her very self centred person, yet we are supposed to sympathise with her. And that's very hard when the character can't acknowledge any mistakes they have made. There needs to be two sides and good and a bad , you can't just show me bad and expect me to think good.

 

Dizzy I think you should really try and listen to In The Shadows ( an Audio Book only ), it does capture everyone very well including their faults, jealousy , kindness, strengths. Including Tosh and her thoughts about Gwen and i think it's pretty on the money. But also Jack and Gwen sorta make sense. It's an attraction between them which is fine but it's not who they need. That role clearly goes to Ianto and Rhys. It is set just before Adam in Season 2

 

I think Gwen fared pretty well in the radio plays. I like her in them.

I like Gwen in those as well except Submission Indeed but i also liked her COE. I think once they stopped with the tantrums and Jack giving in to Gwen or obsessing about her or making her special without a reason Gwen works. I also really liked her Sleepers if Gwen was like that all the time, she would have been an easy character to watch. But she becomes such an effort, and sometimes just plain WTF in Season 1 and 2. And MD just Gwen back to being special again

[Dizzy76]

LOL, I think I should clarify my statement about no form of media escaping the bad Gwen writing.  That wasn't to say that there weren't examples to the contrary or that the other things like audio books and radio plays always got it wrong like the show.  I was just saying that it wasn't just the show writers who committed the crime - though they were the ones who did it consistently.  There are however, a time or two when the way that the show wrote Gwen (and sometimes even how others responded to her) would make an appearance in extra media as well.

 

No matter, I just wanted to clear that up.  I know that once you went beyond the show, there were people there who did things a bit better.

[itsmeyousee]

No Dizzy you are actually rightLOL There is a lot of Gwen how you see her on the show in the books/audio books. The same the world revolves around Gwen and magically powers that come out of nowhere and Jack still obsessing cause she is the "heart" etc. Some writers though gave questions or showed Gwen knew some of the things she has done are wrong but then she would ignore it LOL

 

The Radio Plays are different , more like COE and while Gwen is a big part in the story, it isn't all about Gwen's POV. Don't get me wrong there are a few moments in some of them when you go WTF LOL But overall she is a much better character once they drop the Gwack stuff and stop telling us that she is "special" and just let her be, loud and bossy LOL

[Hana Chan]

Late to the party, but here's my two cents.

 

I found it very hard to like Gwen. For the life of me, I could not see her bringing any special skill set to Torchwood that would warrant the huge amount of leeway she was given and how as the person with the least amount of seniority and experience got elevated to Jack's second (and took over leadership while he was off with The Doctor during The Year That Never Was). And with her repeated defiance (such as revealing Torchwood to Rhys and then refusing to have him retconned), I just kept seeing her as a liability more than an asset. Everyone else in the group had a clear role and a clear skill set (Tosh their technical expert, Owen for science and medicine and Ianto with organization from his Torchwood one experience), but Gwen was a relatively inexperienced police officer who besides having a resistance to retcon didn't bring anything valuable.

 

And I really hated this whole "heart of Torchwood" bullshit. Just another way of saying "special snowflake" and to justify why someone who should never have gotten through the hub's front door suddenly became in 5 minutes the most important person there (and in the end, the last one standing).

Edited July 30, 2014 by Hana Chan

[Dizzy76]

Hey Hana! You may be late to the party but I loved your two cents!

[itsmeyousee]

Aslo loving your two cents worth Hana. She just makes no sense really LOL

[catrox14]

Gwen is the Literal Worst