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S02.E07: Knowledge Of Causes, And Secret Motion Of Things

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I thought this episode was stellar!  Lt Ro, I have missed you -- but I do agree with others here that she's playing roles she seems to have been typecast into.  She doesn't seem to mind, though, because she keeps accepting them.

 

What I love about this show is that it's so damn smart.  I love shows for Smart People.

 

PS:  I also love Cal and agree, please show -- don't hurt him.  (I reserve the right to be suspicious of him but still love him.  He could well be the One Good Guy.  After all, he has the one unique driving force behind the whole game and that's being Kira's father.  Like Sarah, he is one of only two who genetically created Kira.  He has a special role to play in the "meta" of the story, or at least he should.)

 

PPS:  Donnie is starting to remind me of Rhys Williams from Torchwood if Torchwood had been able to flesh their characters out well.  I look forward to Donnie's development.

Edited by Captanne
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Oh, and if Sarah trusted Cal with Kira, why doesn't she trust him with any info about what is happening? He looks like he could be a real asset with his money and his technical skills.

I don't think it's so much that Sarah doesn't trust Cal, as that she feels she's already dragged people close to her into this mess, and giving him the full lowdown would just entangle him in it, too. Right now, he's pretty well outside of things, and that's to everyone's benefit.

I also felt bad for Cal. He fled the scene of a crime (and not just any scene - a dead cop at his house so he can't really ever go back), took care of a kid who he didn't know he had, and now Sarah shows up to say, "Thanks for babysitting but I'm going to bring my kid to the shady organization I told you to hide her from." Whatever their relationship issues are (and there are a lot), Kira is still his child and Sarah is giving him no say in this at all. I understand that her heart is in the right place because she is trying to save Cosima, but she makes decisions on her own and then informs other people.

As much as I like Sarah, I do find many of her actions selfish and her treatment of the people around her could be better at times. Even when she went to Cal's cabin initially, she wasn't honest with Felix. I don't think telling Cal the truth would entangle him any further than he already is. It might actually help him be better prepared for what they're up against. This has never made sense to me. Sarah asks a lot of the people around her while keeping many things close to the vest. A consistent, if not likeable, character trait.

 

Ok, so was Scott the one who told her or she surmised it on her own?

 

I thought Delphine explained it to her. They just didn't show us that I think - only Cosima's reaction to it.

But I don't see how this is going to work out.  No way will Sarah (or Mrs. S) will ever let DYAD get their hands on Kira.

 

But it does appear that's exactly where Sarah is heading with Kira. Maybe Mrs. S will try to stop it, but Sarah may be determined to help Cosima. If that's where that story is headed, it will be very interesting.

Too bad Donny didn't accidentally shoot Vic the dick and annoying Angie. I'm pretty tired of both of them.

That scene with Cosima getting injected creeped me out. And I thought it was weird that Delphine tried to make it romantic -- that didn't work for me.

I don't mind Vic staying around but I'm more than ready to see Angie go. I agree that something was off with that scene between Cosmia and Delphine. Did not work me for either.

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It amazes me the depth of characters that TM can create.  How can Sarah-as-Allison, Sarah and Allison all three be completely distinct?  But I can always tell.  

 

The mix of comedy, thriller and emotional drama in this episode was the best yet of the season.  This season started off a bit rough for me, but it looks like it is going to finish strong.

 

And Michelle Forbes!!  She is such an excellent actress ... I've been a fan since her Homicide days (yikes, I'm old), so I'm always excited when she shows up on one of my shows.  

Edited by s-k-s

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One of the reasons I flove this show so damn much is that it keeps me on my toes -- I can usually predict what's going to happen on nearly every show I watch, but this one?  No fucking way.  Never have I audibly screamed or shrieked at plot turns like OB.  My cats dove off the bed at my reaction to Leakey getting shot by Eating, Farting Donnie.

 

My biggest fear is that the Kira involvement is going to morph into something along the Hera plotline in BSG.  That irritated the living shit out of me back then and killed some of my love for that show, and I don't want to have that happen to this one.  Keep it about The Clone Club!!

Edited by OriginalCyn

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When Cosima was in the stirrups, they were waiting for an epidural to take effect. That's why they were playing the "can you feel this?" game. Yes, it was playful but I also thought both characters looked terrified, so Delphine was trying to lighten the mood and also provide some comfort. It's not even without some scientific foundation, because it's been shown that women in labor relax more if you hold their hands, rub their skin, and sometimes it is in fact recommended to kiss (depending on what school of labor coaching you subscribe to). There is an oxytocin/relaxation effect that comes from that kind of affectionate contact. So Delphine was, essentially, trying to help Cosima relax. She wasn't in labor, but it's a similar type of situation. I didn't get the sense they were getting hot over the operation, just that they were being loving.

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JMO, but what they were doing wasn't creepy, it was the angle of photography and editing that made it *seem* a bit creepy.  

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As far as I can remember, the show never dropped any clues in previous episodes about Kira missing a tooth, This  is too bad as it comes across like a real plot development cheat.

It was said already, but yeah, at that age, kids lose teeth. I don't think this is a particular point that's a cheat per se. She was abducted. At that age, I had loose teeth all the time. Sarah has been frantically running around cloning and pwning nonstop since S2 started, so there probably wasn't time for the tooth fairy to visit.

 

I do think it was important to confirm that the tooth came from Kira because last week there was speculation of its origin, so again, this seemed like a thought-out plot. 

 

I don't think it's so much that Sarah doesn't trust Cal, as that she feels she's already dragged people close to her into this mess, and giving him the full lowdown would just entangle him in it, too. Right now, he's pretty well outside of things, and that's to everyone's benefit.

This is good risk management on Sarah's part. Only Felix knows about Cal, and he doesn't know Cal's current whereabouts. The show made a point to have Sarah tell Mrs S that she isn't divulging Kira's whereabouts. Cal is off the grid as much as he can be and clearly said he's trying to maintain that. Plus, he's mobile. Not telling Cal the full story is harsh, but the right call. *If* he gets caught he literally can't say anything because he doesn't know anything. All he can say is Kira drew a picture of Sarah's sisters who all look the same. Whomever would have caught him presumably would know the existence of the clones anyway, so he literally carries zero intel on Sarah.

 

As to why she thinks it's a good idea to take Kira to Cosima, I don't know. Maybe she is thinking that the teeth are a finite source, so maybe they can extract and maintain a larger supply of stem cells from Kira and Cosima would be better off. 

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Sarah was taking Kira away from Cal since the cover was blown, but maybe she'll find  way to get only the tooth to Cosima (FedEX ?  Meeting with Delphine off DYADs grounds ?)

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I'm not sure if I quite buy the explanation about how DYAD got hold of Kira's tooth. If I'm not mistaken, at the time of Kira's hospitalization after the accident, Leekie and DYAD were still unaware of her existence, other than Delphine, who kept that information from him. Are we meant to think that Delphine somehow got into the hospital and snatched a tooth on Cosima's behalf? It does seem a bit convenient. Would Delphine even have had a clue at that point that Kira had the potential to provide material for a treatment? Anyone able to shed some light on this?

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As much as I like Sarah, I do find many of her actions selfish and her treatment of the people around her could be better at times.

 

 

 

Totally and it's something I think is kind of awesome.  I mean the girl was flat out unlikeable in the first few episodes.  They frequently remind us she's a con artist (if she weren't, she likely wouldn't be involved with Clone Club).  It's kind of neat how they've truly developed the characters by degrees. 

 

A lot of the crappy sci fi I've watched this year has been shows rushing to a sort of mid-run status quo.  You know how if you try to describe a TV show that's been on for a few years, you can't help but describe it how it becomes by season 2 or maybe 3?  That's kind of when things are really cemented because of the first season arc. So while you might talk about the set up in the first few episodes and leave out some critical details for spoiler reasons, you kind of can't help but explain Buffy with pulling in something from Angelous and Spike (with maybe a side of Faith) or Farscape without wormhole weapons and Scorpy clones (perhaps some twinning). Yeah, most of the new shows I've watched in the last few years have been rushing to what the writers must envision as that mid-way point and it rarely makes a lot of sense.  There's never a transition: just an abrupt arrival at a snap shot with no foundation.

 

I love this show. 

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I am still attempting to process this episode and can only come up with "dammit Donnie?!" I blame his actions on that plain name tag that Alison made, no one deserves that. LOL Farewell, Dr. Leekie. 

 

We did rewind Vic's head thumping against the wall a few times, it was comedy GOLD, that and his face covered in glitter and feathers. I still don't like that two characters I HATE, Vic and Angie, have teamed up, I can't wait for that to end, period. Cal and Kira's bonding continues to warm the cockles of my cold little heart. Sarah-as-Alison-as-Donnie as well as Donnie-as-Alison was perfection.

 

I still want the Clone Club to get together again, I'm not sure if I would like to see Rachel join the club, I think she may be too far gone in how she was raised by Leekie and I assume Michelle Forbes' character to be 100% for Clone Club. I still don't trust Delphine completely either, I heart Cosima and hope that Delphine is doing right by her for the right reasons. 

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Well, that, and I've decided that either the audio on BBCAmerica is frakked, or I need a hearing aid.

I think their background music is too loud. Sometimes I think I've been spoiled by Game of Thrones, which is not afraid to be without music at all sometimes for a whole scene, pretty much.

 

Oh, and if Sarah trusted Cal with Kira, why doesn't she trust him with any info about what is happening? He looks like he could be a real asset with his money and his technical skills.

 

I think she is trying to protect him, more than anything. When he said he's had a run in with corporates like Dyad before, Sarah just told him "not like with these guys" (I paraphrase). Essentially, the less he knows the safer he is. But it looks like he's got resources, he'll be a great dad and has skills to survive the onslaught. He didnt seem to be browsing the Dyad website, it looked like he was hacking into their systems; I think he's leant a great deal from that and Kira. Maybe he knows what's happening. 

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I think she is trying to protect him, more than anything. When he said he's had a run in with corporates like Dyad before, Sarah just told him "not like with these guys" (I paraphrase). Essentially, the less he knows the safer he is.

This doesn't work for me. If she truly wanted to protect him, she would never have brought him into this at all. She went to him and left Kira with him. Basically making him a target. I understand there are very few people Sarah can trust so that is why she turned to him to begin with - but then trust him and be truthful. I feel that she owes him that considering the risk she's put him at. This in the middle, halfway thing she does with people doesn't work for me.

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I'm not sure if I quite buy the explanation about how DYAD got hold of Kira's tooth. If I'm not mistaken, at the time of Kira's hospitalization after the accident, Leekie and DYAD were still unaware of her existence, other than Delphine, who kept that information from him. Are we meant to think that Delphine somehow got into the hospital and snatched a tooth on Cosima's behalf? It does seem a bit convenient. Would Delphine even have had a clue at that point that Kira had the potential to provide material for a treatment? Anyone able to shed some light on this?

The timeline is a little iffy, but Kira was in the hospital at the beginning of 1.09. At the beginning of 1.10, Rachel reveals to Sarah that she knows about Kira. We don't actually see on-screen when exactly Rachel learns about Kira or how/who told her, but it could be the trip to the hospital clued them in. Accident reports, victim's name, ambulance, 911 call, hospital admittance. Those all seem to the things the DYAD could easily get their hands on or be actively observing.

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Upon rewatch, a parallel hit me.  Rachel let Leekie live because he raised her and "nuture prevails." And Paul pointed out to Siobhan how he sees where Sarah gets her tendency to burn things to the ground.  BTW I floved Sarah and Siobhan's interactions this episode! Scheming and sass.

 

The funny thing is Cal said he has contacts who talk about Dyad and a couple are way out tin foil hat wearing nuts.  But those people are probably right! Um, hello illegal human cloning program sounds nuts until you have a kid with a clone - ha!

 

Here's my hope for next episode. Rachel is not working against Sarah anymore.  Hopefully there could be some gratitude for finding her father. I'm worried that Rachel will mess with Cosima's treatment since Leekie was conducting it behind her back. I think new boss lady will try to hold Kira hostage to keep Sarah in check and Cosima's future up in the air.  Also, the Prolethians have Helena's fertilized eggs and isn't there a way to harvest stem cells from those? Which might sway the clone club more their way...

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Yay, no Helena but still, something has been missing in the last few episodes, IMO. Alison unburdening herself to Vic and then conveniently hearing his loud phone call to Angie really felt forced. And the wacky hijinks in the rehab centre were nowhere near as fun as the episode as the party in Alison's house in 1.06.

 

Cosima once again had way too little screen time and I really wish her and Alison would speak to each other once in a while. And just like Alison she conveniently happened hear a conversation about her so that the plot could move forward. I appreciate fast plot development but that I can do without too many of these "coincidences".

 

The Dyad power struggle seemed a bit rushed. Why would Rachel immediately believe everything Ethan said? He is behaves like the poster boy for tin-foil hat conspiracy theories. And why would Rachel think that this Marian isn't just as complicit in the murder of her mother as Leekie is?

 

I have always suspected that Donnie had no idea why exactly he was monitoring Alison, though I still don't understand why Leekie had to meet him in person or listen to his phone reports. Don't they have other people to monitor the monitors at the Dyad? I am not too excited about Leekie's "science uber alles" speeches, either, sure he wasn't a nice guy by any stretch of the imagination but he never struck me as a fanatic either.

 

I can see why Cosima was pissed at Delphine but I can totally see Delphine's view point too which is the essence of good drama. Thumb up. And good for Sarah for not going all "I am not giving you even a single hair of Kira's!"

 

I am forgetting - who else knows about the way Aynley died? When Felix mentioned Alison's criminal negligence I couldn't remember if he knew the whole truth. 

 

Why the hell did Felix ask Sarah to come and spiked Vic's tea anyway? What's to stop Vic from spilling the beans now?

 

Mr. S. is so effective in everything she does. So, I hope she goes after Helena with her gun next. What?  A guy can dream.

Edited by Jack Shaftoe

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This is good risk management on Sarah's part. Only Felix knows about Cal, and he doesn't know Cal's current whereabouts.

 

Paul and Rachel know about Cal and that Cal's probably Kira's father. We saw that in one of the previous episodes (I binge watched a bunch, so not sure which one) This may mean that Marian and general Dyad knows as well. That's one of my main problems with Sarah--she assumes she knows who knows what even though she should know that she doesn't. Daniel and Art both tracked her to Cal's, so she should know she has no clue who all may know about him. She may think she's protecting Cal by keeping the truth from him, but she's wrong. She's just leaving him at greater risk by giving him incomplete information.

 

However, I did think the "you're a... Pisces" was a subtle exchange letting us know that Cal does suspect the truth, but was saving Sarah from having to talk about it. Why he's so nice to her, however, I'll never know.

 

On a different subject, I hate Allison so much at this point that it's starting to take me out of the show. I get that her scenes are supposed to be black comedy to lighten things up from Cosima/Helena/Sarah emotionally heavy scenes, but it just doesn't work for me. The way she complained about Aynsley seeming to think of herself as better than Allison and her chirpy "I do feel better" after admitting to letting Aynsley die while Aynsley clawed at the counter and begged for her life came across as sociopathic to me. I had thought the show was going for a storyline of Allison repressing her guilt that was eventually going to culminate in character growth, but now I'm just not sure.

 

At this point, I want all the bad things for Allison. She is a hideous, self-centered person, who does not deserve Donnie, custody of her kids, or support from Clone Club. I do still hope character growth actually happens, and she admits that she's caused almost all of her own problems by leaping to conclusions and making rash, life changing choices based on them. I also want her to admit that Aynsley was a good person and a good friend, whose only "crime" was daring to see that Allison was falling apart and trying to help as best she could. I want Allison to recognize that she's responsible for kids losing their mother and people losing a friend. I also want her to admit that she kept significant, important secrets from Donnie and that she is as, or more, responsible for the problems in her marriage. I need her to make some kind of sacrifice to atone for what she's done and the problems she's caused.

 

Also, just once, I want Sarah and Felix to stop enabling Allison's paranoia. I wish they had pointed out that she had no idea whether Dyad's ever even probed her, much less whether Donnie was involved with it. For all we and Allison know, what happened with Sarah was a unique occurrence because Dyad was wondering whether she was a clone impostor rather than being Beth.

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The new heavy is genre veteran Michelle Forbes. Great to see her joining the cast, she seems perfect in that character.

 

Whenever the hub & I see her in something, we jump up and say "Ensign Ro!" :)

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As much as I enjoy having the clones together, I was confused as to why Sarah had to go to the rehab center/centre if Felix had spiked Vic's tea. Did he do that before or after the call? Also, does taking part in that role-playing thing reduce one's stay at rehab? Otherwise, I don't see why Alison would have volunteered for that. 

 

I have not really been feeling the Project Leda backstory, partially since I was not that sold on it in the beginning. Not so much what it was, but the consequences surrounding it. When Amelia tried going to Sarah with a warning about Mrs. S, all I could think of was how they got in contact, for how long Amelia played along, and why. At that point, we knew nothing about Project Leda or those people in the photograph, other than Mrs. S was involved and it was probably taken in 1977. It was also implied to be related to the cloning experiment somehow. I guess that it was a plot twist hook regarding someone Sarah had known since she was a child, but the foundation seemed shaky already.

 

Flash forward to episode two of this season. Mrs. S denies knowing anything about Project Leda, but then confirms that she knows about it.

 

Episode four. There is a huge info dump, saying that they were married, they were Rachel's adoptive parents, the implication that they could have been Sarah's adoptive parents under other circumstances, that they were apparently loving parents, and that they died in a lab explosion.

 

Episode five. Oh, wait. Father Duncan is alive. Leekie says that the lab explosion wiped out the...original...ge...nome??? Whatever it was, Leekie's efforts have been to get back what was lost or through reverse engineering or something. Sarah tells him that she knows that Ethan Duncan is alive, but Leekie's response is unclear.

 

Episode six...so...Leekie caused the explosion? Because...

 

Episode seven....because the Duncans were going to run off with the...stuff? Was this the same stuff that he was trying to reverse engineer? Did he decide that it was better to destroy it and spend the next two decades trying to recreate it than to let those two scientists run off with it? Maybe I should rewatch the episodes to figure this out, but it just seems like random plot twists. Well, whatever his motives were, the company has apparently rendered him expendable for some reason...aaaaaand he's dead for an only somewhat related reason. Right now, it just seemed to be going everywhere and nowhere until it turned into a way to make Leekie seem like a total bad guy before killing him off. So...

 

Episode eight...is Rachel or Ethan or this new character going to go into more depth about Project Leda and Leekie's involvement?

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I must admit, I did literally laugh out loud when the gun went off. Well done, Donnie, in terms of how to go from bad to way way way beyond bad.

 

Sarah as Alison was good, as expected. Kira is CloneClub's little trooper, as always.

 

I hope Cal doesn't go too far.

 

I can see Delphine comforting Cosima. I don't think it was epecially meant to imply sexytimes...but it was rather intimate.

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I still want the Clone Club to get together again, I'm not sure if I would like to see Rachel join the club, I think she may be too far gone in how she was raised by Leekie and I assume Michelle Forbes' character to be 100% for Clone Club.

 

Because some of the best scenes for me are the clones interacting with each other, I'm hoping that Rachel at least has the opportunity to interact with Allison, especially since this episode allowed her stony facade to crack. Allison and Rachel share a certain precision of attitude that each might appreciate in the other, and Sarah/Cosima share a certain greater casualness of attitude that might bond them. Helena, of course, is the perpetual wild card.

 

Felix is a real stereotype shatterer. You would not necessarily think that an artist would have the practicality to dose Vic and haul his inert body around (even with the head-bumps). I find myself curious as to how he will interact with Rachel as well.

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I think my favorite part was Cal saying good-bye to Kira. He taught her a phone number for emergencies.

 

  I'm guessing that's going to come into play somehow where something bad is happening and she needs to call. Sarah taking her to Dyad can't end well.(if they do go there)

I LOVE Sarah impersonating Alison. The way she said, "Mmm hmm" to the nurse was hilarious. 

 

And I thought it also was hysterical when her son called out to her she just goes, "hi...kids." :)

 

 

 

I can't decide if Donnie's job resignation was the worst ever or the best ever.

 

For Donnie it was the worst, for the audience(at least me) it was the best! 

No update on the Helena stuff.  I guess they're still on the road.

 

I didn't even see her in the previews for next week.

Why the hell did Felix ask Sarah to come and spiked Vic's tea anyway?

 

Speaking of the tea, when I watched it again today I saw a little continuity error. When Vic finishes drinking the styrofoam cup of tea,you could hear after he gulped the last bit that there was nothing left in there. Then later when Felix looks at the cup,you can see there's still some tea in there.

 

I really wanted to actually hear more of the conversation with Rachel and her dad. TM is a really good crier so I wanted to at least see a closer shot of them instead of the far away wide shot. Grrr.

 

When Sarah and Cal were getting something to eat from the food truck and we see Kira in the car, was anyone else thinking, why are you leaving her alone like that, someone could grab her!!! Even if the door was locked.

 

Edited by Valny
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This doesn't work for me. If she truly wanted to protect him, she would never have brought him into this at all. She went to him and left Kira with him. Basically making him a target. I understand there are very few people Sarah can trust so that is why she turned to him to begin with - but then trust him and be truthful. I feel that she owes him that considering the risk she's put him at. This in the middle, halfway thing she does with people doesn't work for me.

 

I agree, the halfway house is not ideal but she took a long time to admit Art to the clone club and Cosima has tried to keep some of the clone club secrets from Delphine, Allison basically doesn't trust anyone except for Felix and her sestras. Having said that, Sarah trusts Cal with Kira, which says a lot. So I do think she'll come round to telling him eventually. Most people aren't told about the clones anyway until they see at least two separate clones, forcing a confession.

 

By the way, I did suspect last week that we'd start seeing more Dyad higher ups but I didn't think that it'd be at the expense of Leekie. His demise is not good for Sarah in particular (if Rachel and Marion team up) or the clone club in general (since they criticised Leekie's personal touch). 

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For Donnie it was the worst, for the audience(at least me) it was the best!

Can someone actually quit when his boss is fired?

I really wanted to actually hear more of the conversation with Rachel and her dad. TM is a really good crier so I wanted to at least see a closer shot of them instead of the far away wide shot. Grrr.

 I was kind of that way too, but I also kind of wished that we heard that phone conversation between Cosima and Sarah. This was at least the second time this season where a conversation between the two of them about Cosima's illness happened off-screen.

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How come all these scientists can't figure out how to put a GPS on the clones?

 

I've given up trying to figure out who is chasing whom, especially since both Helena and the Prolethians can 1) find anyone they want at any time and 2) teleport to their location. Basically, people can or cannot find each other, at a moment's notice, regardless of their alliances at that moment, depending on what the plot needs. (And needless to say it's been bugging me this season, ever since Cal had time to hide Kira on a farm and then overtake Sarah and her captor AND find the perfect place from which to t-bone them without seriously injuring himself or Sarah.)

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I just don't care about Cal as much as I want to.  I like the actor, and the character is nice, but that's the thing, he's too nice.  He's mad at Sarah for about half a second and then jumps back into bed with her.  He questions Kira's parentage once and never again despite having zero evidence it's the truth and plenty of evidence that Sarah can't be trusted (from his perspective).  He goes on the run for her, risks his life for her, and only gets slightly irritated that she won't tell him what the hell is going on.  In short, he's not behaving the way a real person would behave.  His behavior, IMO, only has two explanations - he's super shady and is actively manipulating Sarah, or he's a poorly written plot device.  The writing on this show is usually stellar, so I want to believe there will be something by the end of the season that makes his behavior make sense, but this far into the season and I'm just not feeling him, and (very slight, vague spoiler)

the actor is only in one more episode, the finale, so my hopes aren't high to get much satisfaction there

.  We don't yet have any concrete hints he's up to anything shady when it comes to Sarah or the actual main plot of the show (yes he has fake IDs, but he was living off the grid because corporate America screwed him over, that could literally just be his paranoia, there's nothing that ties it to the larger plot in any interesting or meaningful way), so instead of coming off as ambiguously motivated (like Paul and 70% of the rest of the cast) he comes off as a doormat.

 

I loved that Alison's reaction to finding out Donnie wasn't nearly as 'in' on the conspiracy as she thought was to just get even more pissed at him.  He was a liar and a spy and on top of it he was a schmuck.  While I certainly wouldn't mind them dealing with it more later on, I'm OK with where they're at right now with Alison dealing with Ainsley's death.  She was clearly upset and guilty at the end of last season and the beginning of this season, but it's also in Alison's character to repress as much and as long as humanly possible and just pretend everything is normal and happy.  We saw her break down over it in the finale last year, so seeing her making light of it now, to me it just comes off as Alison doing the Alison thing and pretending everything is OK so her whole world won't shatter around her.  We'll see how they handle that going forward.

 

It didn't completely weird me out or anything, but I agree that the way the Cosima/Delphine medical exam scene was filmed was slightly off.  I was OK with the actions themselves, there was just something odd about the filming choices.  I think they were trying to contrast the setting and action (a medical exam room and an uncomfortable and upsetting procedure, very cold and clinical) with something more warm and intimate.  To me the contrast just felt off.  I'm sure other people weren't bothered by it though, so hopefully it worked for someone else.

 

I need 10000% more Siobhan, always and forever.  She's delightful with everyone, from Sarah, to Leekie, to Paul.  Moar Siobhan.

 

Sad to see Matt Frewer go, but that was sure an effective shocker!  I laughed, and I see some other people did as well.  For me, it was the music choice.  THAT was a contrast that worked for me.

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I don't suppose Donnie was smart enough to bring a gun that was unregistered.

 

In the U.S. not even a police officer is required to help someone in distress. Is the law different in Canada? If not, all Alison has to fear is an investigation of her story (with a thorough grilling by Angie I'm sure).

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So when Rachel confronted Leekie, she said something about the Duncans "salting [the] petri dishes." The idea I got from Sarah's conversation with Duncan last week is that the Duncans were recruited to make clones, they were onboard with creating the science, but actually carrying the clones to term crossed an ethical line? So... why did they want to raise one (or more) of the clones? Was that the deal that was struck in exchange for their participation? "Do this for us, and we'll give you the baby girl you always wanted?" And the Duncans sabotaged the project with the exception of the embryo that was supposed to be for their child--which, at that time, would have been the embryo that split to become Sarah and Helena.

 

Is that a reasonable inference to make? Do I have all the facts straight?

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I still love the show, but... boy, the writers have a real bad habit of developing a character or storyline just to abruptly drop it off a cliff with no pay off.

This is the fourth time where the writers give a villain a sudden death kind of out of left field when they still had some juice in them to move the plot along (cue “In Memorium” sequence for Daniel, Tomas, and Olivier… okay maybe not Tomas).  There could have been more story in Dr. Leekie on the run -- maybe begrudgingly joining up with the Clone Club to take down Rachel? -- rather than death by oops ("I am Donnie, destroyer of worlds").

It reminds me of Sarah’s time as Beth.  Once Art and Det. McEyebrows (or Det. DeAngelis. … I had to look up her name) started to work out the Sarah-Beth-Katja connection, Sarah couldn’t really stay on the force -- I get that, I do -- but, her decision to have Beth resign was made over the course of what felt like a third of a scene.  Over and over, there were advantages (and, admittedly, drawbacks) to her having access to police information.  Whereas if the writers had found a way to keep Sarah/Beth around it would have given Art something to do (‘cause… he doesn’t really have anything to do now, but God love the writers for pretending otherwise), and Det. McEyebrows would still have a purpose (‘cause if she’s anything like me she periodically forgets why she’s on Alison’s case, too).

 

Despite all that, though, I swear I do still love the show.

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Paul has been keeping his clothes on. Not sure that I like that.​

Naked is his best acting.

 

I think it makes sense that Alison didn't tell Donnie about being a clone even before she suspected him of being her watcher.  She's so tightly wound, and so caught up in her perfect little suburban world (or was, I guess - that has surely changed!), that she would have kept her worlds pretty separated.  Letting Donnie know she was a clone would have destroyed her perfect world.

 

I'm really glad that the Vic-spying-on-Alison storyline didn't get dragged out forever.  I was worried we'd have to see that for a few episodes, and given how paranoid Alison is, and how not-smooth Vic is, it just didn't work for me, and I didn't want to see it go on and on.  

 

I think I like Cal, and I know I *want* to like Cal, but I'm scared he's up to something.  He definitely knows more than he's letting on, what with all the guns and fake IDs and security measures and whatnot.  I just can't believe he lives that way all the time "just in case."  But I really want Sarah to have some non-clone, non-Felix really be 100% on her side, and not full of secrets and hidden agendas.  It seems like all the clones keep getting screwed at every turn by people not being who they seem to be.  (Ahem, Delphine, I'm looking at you. Never liked her, and would love to see her go away for good.)

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...There could have been more story in Dr. Leekie on the run -- maybe begrudgingly joining up with the Clone Club to take down Rachel? -- rather than death by oops ("I am Donnie, destroyer of worlds")...

I, OTOH, found that refreshingly Occam's Razor-ish. And darkly funny.

Or what @possibilities says directly below.

Edited by shapeshifter

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This isn't really a good reason, but I liked the Leekie finish because I like being surprised-- and I am almost never surprised when I watch TV. But that one got me. I thought Donnie might shoot when he first saw Leekie in the street. But when it wasn't a drive by or an immediate shot once L got in the car, I simply did not see the accidental shooting coming. I also liked it because that's an important fact about firearms: they can go off when not handled properly, and do irrevocable unintended damage. On TV, no one ever shoots by accident.

 

I find Cal's preparedness credible, because of his history of being screwed over by Big Bads. I don't think Sarah really knows what she's talking about when she considers DYAD to be way bigger than what Cal's dealt with. What is bigger than the military-industrial complex? But I do have a hard time believing how good natured and relaxed he is about her jerking him around, ripping him off for thousands of dollars, showing up announcing a kid is his, leaving the kid with him, taking the kid back, bringing murder to his doorstep, causing him to lose hs home.... it's a lot for someone to take to without a ripple. It's one thing to be prepared against the enemy you know. It's another to be all-in for the con artist who suckered you last time and still isn't giving you any basis for thinking she's reformed. What I think is that the show needed a place to stow Kira, so they made up a benign guy to take the role. It's sort of like all those shows and movies where someone has a mother stowed away "back home" who will take anything i stride, you can show up in the middle of the night and she will cook for you and your refugee friends and not ask any questions and always be there when you come home, no matter how many times you leave in the middle of the night with no warning. It would have made more sense to me if they'd made it something like a family member of one of the clones. We still don't know anything about Cosima's or Beth's or Allison's or any of the other clones' parents/foster parents other than Mrs S. But a parent or other relative would be on the radar of DYAD, so I guess that's why they made it an ex-lover.

 

Allison isn't angry at her parents the way she is at Donnie, is she? She talks about sending her kids to her parents for various reasons. But surely they knew the story even more than he did.

 

Some things get handwaved even in the best of shows.

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I just watched it again, and I have to say how much I love, love, love Maria Doyle Kennedy as Mrs. S. She owns this episode.

What do we think Rachel told Marion to get her to agree to off Leekie? I'm not thinking it was the truth.

And how did Leekie know Sarah had tracked down Ethan? I guess he knew Paul was lying.

Also, why exactly is Angie so obsessed with Alison? And doesn't she have any other work to do? She is annoying and really does have evil eyebrows.

Sorry to the Cal lovers, but I don't like or trust him.

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death by oops ("I am Donnie, destroyer of worlds").

 

Front and backside of T-shirt.  Those things would sell themselves.

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 When Sarah and Cal were getting something to eat from the food truck and we see Kira in the car, was anyone else thinking, why are you leaving her alone like that, someone could grab her!!! Even if the door was locked.

I know! Now, those child leash things typically creep me out, but if there is a kid who should literally be tied to her guardian at all times, it's Kira. I do love that she got her own BAMF moment with the tooth.

 

I don't suppose Donnie was smart enough to bring a gun that was unregistered.

Holy shit. What if he used one of Alison's registered guns?!?!

 

It reminds me of Sarah’s time as Beth.  Once Art and Det. McEyebrows (or Det. DeAngelis. … I had to look up her name) started to work out the Sarah-Beth-Katja connection, Sarah couldn’t really stay on the force -- I get that, I do -- but, her decision to have Beth resign was made over the course of what felt like a third of a scene.  Over and over, there were advantages (and, admittedly, drawbacks) to her having access to police information.  Whereas if the writers had found a way to keep Sarah/Beth around it would have given Art something to do (‘cause… he doesn’t really have anything to do now, but God love the writers for pretending otherwise), and Det. McEyebrows would still have a purpose (‘cause if she’s anything like me she periodically forgets why she’s on Alison’s case, too).

 

Despite all that, though, I swear I do still love the show.

Hee, it's crazy how different viewers see stuff because actually remember thinking that I wasn't going to be able to take Sarah pretending to be a cop much longer and the BOOM. She quit. I mean, I quite liked all the Sarah-as-Beth stuff, but she knew nothing about being a police detective (which inherently puts the lives of her co-workers at risk) and even Helena asked her how long she could possibly keep fooling the rest of the cops. I just felt that if she carried on fumbling her way through the job it would just wind up making Art & Co look like idiots.

 

Can someone help me out with the stem cell line from baby teeth timeline? That would, presumably be ongoing research and experiments right? Like, they decided baby teeth are a good source for material and they try various baby teeth from various sources? I only ask because Leekie mentioned working on it to Cosima and Delphine in episode 7 (I think), but Kira wasn't in the hospital until episode 9.

 

Oh and, FWIW, I have always suspected Paul might have told them about Kira. He was already sort of snared by Rachel/Leekie by episode 10 and he's the only other person who knew about Kira besides Delphine. Did he know Kira got hit by that car? If so, he could've been the one to tell Leekie about it.

Edited by hardy har

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Holy shit. What if he used one of Alison's registered guns?!?!

Oy. Most likely. So now Angela is likely going to conclude that Allison is a serial killer--which Allison will likely prove by accidentally killing her. Maybe her head gets stuck under the garage door? Or a scarf caught under a car tire while the car is being driven away by Allison? Or maybe Donnie can cause one of those things to happen. Edited by shapeshifter
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JMO, but what they were doing wasn't creepy, it was the angle of photography and editing that made it *seem* a bit creepy.

Agree, but I also feel like they've been intentionally subbing those medical scenes (like the long, almost sensual scene...of Cosima getting that first injection) for intimate scenes for that pair for most of the season. I think I understand what they're doing, but it does read a little strangely, especially this week with her feet in the stirrups and all.

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So when Rachel confronted Leekie, she said something about the Duncans "salting [the] petri dishes." The idea I got from Sarah's conversation with Duncan last week is that the Duncans were recruited to make clones, they were onboard with creating the science, but actually carrying the clones to term crossed an ethical line? So... why did they want to raise one (or more) of the clones? Was that the deal that was struck in exchange for their participation? "Do this for us, and we'll give you the baby girl you always wanted?" And the Duncans sabotaged the project with the exception of the embryo that was supposed to be for their child--which, at that time, would have been the embryo that split to become Sarah and Helena.

 

Is that a reasonable inference to make? Do I have all the facts straight?

 

Well, I thought that whatever sabotage they did (either figuratively or literally "salting the petrie dishes") must have happened shortly before the fire, which would have been several years after Rachel was born.  It might have been part of whatever general change of heart they were having, regarding the project, which was leading them to want to go public with the whole story.  I kind of think that they destroyed information on the original genome, which Leekie blamed on the fire when he was talking to Cosima and Delphine.

 

Allison isn't angry at her parents the way she is at Donnie, is she? She talks about sending her kids to her parents for various reasons. But surely they knew the story even more than he did.

 

Actually, Sarah mentioned last season that the parents of all the other clones (to her knowledge) were unable to have children naturally and went to the Dyad for in vetro fertilization, so most of their parents probably think that they are their biological children.

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I burst out laughing when the gun went off. Does that make me a bad person?

I did too because it was just so comical. Poor hapless Donny!

Is Leekie dead? Go to YouTube and search for Monty Python's Dead Parrot sketch. What John Cleese says is how dead the doctor is!

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It seems like all the clones keep getting screwed at every turn by people not being who they seem to be.  (Ahem, Delphine, I'm looking at you. Never liked her, and would love to see her go away for good.)

 

To be fair to Delphine, she only briefly pretended to be someone she wasn't and Cosima knew the salient fact (that Delphine was her monitor) right away. So Cosima's getting screwed by Delphine is really Cosima's own trusting nature getting to her. It's like Allison got Cosima's dose of paranoia, so now Allison is leaping-to-conclusions insanely paranoid but Cosima is all continuous multiple chances. 

 

I think whichever poster suggested that Helena's embryo is going to end up the real stem cell cure is probably onto something. I don't see the show choosing to have Helena successfully gestate a baby, so either Gracie ends up impregnated with the embryos after all or I think the embryo(s) end up saving Kira's baby teeth.

 

I like Cal, but I agree that the show needed to do more to justify his acceptance of Sarah given their past. Instead of falling into bed with her, he could have stayed cold and suspicious but tolerated her for Kira's sake. Instead of being all la di da about running away with Kira and accepting whatever crumbs of info Sarah tells him, he could have been angrier about the mess she brought into his life. I like him much better than Paul as a romance interest, but he is a little too unnaturally accepting. At the very least, he could have fought harder to take Kira into safekeeping with him.

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On TV, no one ever shoots by accident.

TV is shockingly clean, predictable, repeatable, and very obvious, when one looks at it holistically, or from a meta-pov. As good as True Detective was, it was a very linear, singular story. Game of Thrones is even rather predictable. They basically said as much on the show. And that's fine, it's not like one can't take a typical detective story and turn it into something really riveting. But, no, no one even shoots by accident, or takes a wrong turn, or just drops a plate because they dropped it, or the dog doesn't bark because sometimes dogs bark. 

 

This show has been basically Sarah running around like crazy and now she's practically a shark. She *cannot* stop moving. And that's rippled out to the people she interacts with or influences directly, or indirectly.

 

So Alison flies off the handle because not only is Donnie a monitor, but he's a schmuck because Vic is spying on her and can't get over Sarah. So Leekie has to run into schmuck Donnie who may have never held a gun in his life. 

 

The output isn't directly proportional to the input on this show; i.e., cause and effect don't always hold. It's formally complex, and I think that's directed by TPTB. Loosely, it's like what is colloquially called the butterfly effect, and Leekie is an example of that. Shit doesn't necessarily happen randomly, events are connected, but it's not as predictable as just about all tv shows. 

 

Hee, it's crazy how different viewers see stuff because actually remember thinking that I wasn't going to be able to take Sarah pretending to be a cop much longer and the BOOM. She quit.

Several of us over at the other place back in S1 were saying as much. She was fucking up a lot, and by that point Art was getting like, 'wtf Beth?' And the only reason he didn't really push it was because the real Beth had one on him when she covered up for him. Not to mention by then, Sarah received a visit from Helena *at her desk*. She had to get out of there.

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There was a bit of business in one scene where Alison pulls her headband off of Sarah's head while Sarah swats her hand away. I thought this was just a little example of the cute annoyed-sisters dynamic that they have. It took me a full day to realize that it's actually another seamless Maslany-on-Maslany interaction. They got me again!

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I started watching the series over Memorial weekend, caught up and watched my first live episode on Saturday night.  Man, this show!  I can't believe how there is almost a "holy. shit. balls." moment every episode and think that Tatiana Mosley is clearly a treasure.  I can't get past the same woman playing all these intricate characters. 

 

This episode had wonderful elements of farce:  Felix and Allison running through the wellness place with Vic, whose face is covered in glitter and feathers, had me in tears of laughter.

 

While I adore Sarah, she really uses people up, doesn't she?  Cal's face when he realized Sarah was taking Kira made me sad.  I hope we see him again and he doesn't turn out to be a bad guy.  I don't care for the actor on Game of Thrones, but I like him here.

 

I'm sure Michelle Forbes is a nice woman in real life, but when I saw her, I cringed inwardly.  She always plays such creepy people. 

 

Danny offing Leekie made me yell and laugh.  Of course, that's what would have happened. 

 

Paul is interesting to me (also, hot...whew, boy):  Whose side is he really on?  I think he genuinely has a soft spot for Sarah (he lied for her again), but he won't give up his own wants.

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I read somewhere that Vic's stuntman broke his nose on the table when the drugs kicked in.  :o  Felix drugging Vic while in rehab was evil.

When Vic fell forward and face-planted the table I absolutely said aloud, how could a stunt guy do that without injury!

 

Re:  Cal, not sure why I have this impression but I thought we were led to believe that he is not completely a good guy or what he seems to be.  I think he genuinely cares about Kira, but I had the impression that he is also in on some sort devious side plot.  Anyone else remember getting this impression?

 

Also, why didn't Cal go with Sara and Kira?

 

Loved the ending!  Such a great surprise.

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I don't think the show's ever deliberately implied that Cal was shady, but a lot of people have inferred it, since he seems way too good to be true.  

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I think whichever poster suggested that Helena's embryo is going to end up the real stem cell cure is probably onto something. I don't see the show choosing to have Helena successfully gestate a baby, so either Gracie ends up impregnated with the embryos after all or I think the embryo(s) end up saving Kira's baby teeth.

 

Oh man, that is a really interesting theory and would definitely tie the storylines together - not to mention touch upon the dicey social debate about whether  embryos are human beings with their own rights. So, basically, right up Orphan Black's alley! haha

 

 

 

It seems like all the clones keep getting screwed at every turn by people not being who they seem to be.  (Ahem, Delphine, I'm looking at you. Never liked her, and would love to see her go away for good.)

 

To be fair to Delphine, she only briefly pretended to be someone she wasn't and Cosima knew the salient fact (that Delphine was her monitor) right away. So Cosima's getting screwed by Delphine is really Cosima's own trusting nature getting to her.

 

Taking this to the Delphine thread.

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Wow, amazing fakeout with Donnie not knowing the essential truth about Alison.

 

 

It makes sense.  Paul didn't know they were clones either until they figured out that Sara was Beth, and they clued him in.

 

Best line of the night: "He's been assaulted by elves!" when they try to get Vic up and his face is covered in glitter.

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Tatiana Maslany is the real Mystique, she can be anyone. 

 

Vic's face when Alison casually said "Then I killed her".  I don't remember, does Vic know about the clones? Or does he think Sarah has a twin sister/double. 

 

Nail Gun Ken, best description of Paul ever. 

 

The clones have the best family, Sarah keeps filling in for Alison to take care of Donnie, Cosima tells Sarah that they have Kira's DNA, Sarah drops everything to help Cosima, Kira pulls her own tooth out with a door, Helena murders people to save her seesta. It's messed up but they are a family.  It sucks that Cosima is sick but I hope that means the other clones rush to her side, she needs to be more involved with all of them.

 

Wow, did not expect Donnie to shoot Leekie. He and Alison are perfect for each other, they can accidentally kill anyone. Maybe one of them can get in a room with Angie. 

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