ElectricBoogaloo November 16, 2018 Share November 16, 2018 Quote Tensions rise among the students after Alaric decides to give the students a bigger voice by forming an honor council. Determined to find out more about Landon's past, Hope does a series of magical tests on him. Meanwhile, Alaric and Dorian take on the next creature to try and find out what they want and where they are coming from. Promo: Original air date: 11/29/18 Link to comment
Diapason Untuned November 30, 2018 Share November 30, 2018 This episode was an excellent example of why high school politics is a bad idea. Someone who was just locked up for assualt got elected, it started two fights and messed up two relationships. 6 Link to comment
Josie means Love November 30, 2018 Share November 30, 2018 Ugh, here we go again. Josie kisses Rafael in one episode, he tells her that he's fine with it, and in the next, just because she does something that he doesn't like he has a one night stand with her sister. Typical for a teenage drama, I don't know why there are so many positive reviews, but I'm kinda disappointed that I've waited 2 weeks for this. I don't really know what happened with "there will be no love triangles". Then again, it's not the first time that Julie contradicts herself, she does it very often. From the promo of next episode it looks like MG is Lizzie's date after all, and honestly, I won't be surprised if Rafael is Josie's, which would make absolutely no sense, but that's what Julie does. Apart from that, I thought it was alright. They said that we might get a hint at who's going to be the Big Bad this episode, so my guess is Landon's mother? Penelope also won me, I didn't really like her until now, but she doesn't seem that bad to me now. She's actually a pretty good written character, unlike Lizzie whose character just keeps getting ruined. Also, for next week - I really hope they don't screw up and just make fun of my favorite TVD mommie once again... They had their fun in TVD S7, they should not mess up again! #JodiLynO'Keefe ❤ Link to comment
GaT November 30, 2018 Share November 30, 2018 Meh, a so-so episode. I'm sure Landon will be back, but I'm not looking forward to mommy dearest being the big bad. That girl was right, Lizzie is a big life suck, I don't like her at all. 1 Link to comment
ElectricBoogaloo November 30, 2018 Author Share November 30, 2018 Oh, sweet innocent naive MG, I knew as soon as you had that conversation with Kaleb that he was going to get himself elected instead. Like many parents, Alaric has good intentions but shitty ideas. Yes, you should be more honest with the kids about what kind of world they live in and the dangers they face. Creating an honor council is not the appropriate way to deal with that. You know what IS the appropriate way to deal with that? JUST BE HONEST WITH THE STUDENTS. Maybe have a school wide discussion about what they think is missing from the curriculum (like proactive spells instead of just defensive spells). Yes, your job as a parent and a headmaster is to protect these students, but that doesn't mean coddling them or hiding the truth from them. They're teenagers, not toddlers. Elena, Caroline, Matt, Tyler, and Jeremy were teenagers when they started dealing with all kinds of supernatural stuff so why does Alaric think that he should keep the truth about all the stuff that's happening from his students? If anything, this is a great opportunity to make this a teaching moment. The students will learn that not everything in the supernatural world is static and established. Hell, if anything it will teach them the importance of learning other languages, how to do proper research, etc. High school councils are great for things like planning the homecoming dance. That's about it. They shouldn't be deciding if a student stays or goes. Hope's speech about why Landon should go made no sense. First she blamed Rafael for not being around when Jed attacked Landon, as if it's Rafael's responsibility to be Landon's personal bodyguard 24/7. That's not even victim blaming. That's blaming people who are adjacent to the victim. It's like asking a rape victim's friend why they weren't there to prevent the rape from happening in the first place. Uh, how about we blame the actual perpetrator? When Hope said that if Landon stayed, it would be on all of them to protect him, I was like YES, IT IS EVERYONE'S RESPONSIBILITY NOT TO BEAT THE SHIT OUT OF A FELLOW STUDENT. Why is that so difficult to accept? Kaleb's argument made more sense than Hope's did. Related side note: I understand why Alaric started the school and I support educating supernatural beings about who they are and what else is out there. But keeping them separated from humans has resulted in this weird attitude where everyone at the Salvatore School hates the human kids at Mystic Falls and now they think it's okay to beat up a human just for being human. That is a problem. Alaric needs to spend some time finding ways to get the witches, vampires, and werewolves to be a lot nicer to each other as well as to humans. There needs to be a lot more tolerance and less clique-ishness. Of all the arguments that were made for/against Landon staying, Josie's was the most logical and she was the only one to put aside her personal feelings to make the decision that she thought was best for the school (I'm leaving Emma out of the equation since she had no personal feelings about Landon). I love how Hope had to administer Landon's tests because Emma was busy taking care of the school, which amounted to not noticing that there was a huge werewolf fight in the gym. Later Emma was too busy taking care of the school to go let Kaleb out of the dungeon herself and sent MG to do it. Ooookay. And she represents the lower grades but she isn't going to stay for the first council meeting. Nope, just cast her vote and then peaced the fuck out. Heh, why don't they use the ball of truth more often? Oh, right. Because it's a plot device. Ugh, Lizzie. What an entitled brat! She already asked Emma if Josie could step down before discussing it with Josie. Lizzie would step on her sister's neck to get what she wants. This is the most that I have ever liked Penelope. It's about time that someone told Lizzie what a selfish and shitty sister she is. Claiming you love someone doesn't mean that you don't treat them like crap. Ha, love that the sets of the Whitmore dorms are being reused! I find it sad that Alaric and Dorian, who are students/teachers of the supernatural kept referring to the dryad as a monster TO HER FACE. And even though they knew she couldn't control the impulse to try to get the knife, neither of them apologized for KILLING HER. The closest we got was Dorian saying, "I'm sorry this happened." So by "this," you mean luring her to you, capturing her, imprisoning her, and then killing her? The worst part about the Rafael/Lizzie sex scene was all I could think about is both of them getting all that sand in some very uncomfortable places. 7 Link to comment
Chris24601 November 30, 2018 Share November 30, 2018 Silly, silly Alaric... couldn't you foresee the inherent problem with making Student Council membership positions supernatural-type? As a result, I do have to appreciate Hope's just blatant almost nonchalant after-the-vote pronouncement of "I'm getting a spot on the council because I'm a tribrid and no one represents my interests." to Alaric. That "I'm a unique type of supernatural" from Hope just so on-the-nose lines up with the problem Alaric's been having to deal with all season... how to handle all these long forgotten (apparently through a magic curse of some kind) and basically unique creatures popping up. Given that Landon is basically Hope's age, I think it'd actually be rather amusing if Hope's birth as a basically impossible creature didn't shake something loose in the cosmos that allowed the other "impossible" monsters to start to be able to return. 3 Link to comment
Lady Calypso November 30, 2018 Share November 30, 2018 So, I've been thinking this for a while but Alaric is a shitty headmaster. After more than a decade of experience, he's acting like this is the first time he's ever had to run a school. Hell, he's been teaching kids for almost two decades! Yet he's being a jackass to the new students and is basically showcasing his inability to really compromise. It's been a week since the series started and he seems to not care about his students much at all. I get Landon is some kid who has caused a lot of trouble in the week that he's been at the school, but Alaric's nonchalant behaviour toward the kid while he's begging for help reflects badly on Alaric. There's a difference between having rules and being a jackass. Alaric and Dorian scenes with the Dryad were decent but they really are nonchalant about killing, even innocent monsters. I get that she attacked them to get the knife, but at least be a little more apologetic here. Oh, Lizzie. I really, really do like her but she's definitely making her own wrong decisions. I would hate her in real life, but she's entertaining enough on the show. However, she's even starting to verge on annoying territory. Meanwhile, I'm warming up to Josie a lot more. I like Penelope but loved when she told Lizzie off. I mean, is she wrong? Nope. Penelope's definitely an instigator and will be the cause of the twins getting into a huge fight at some point, but it would also be by Lizzie's doing. No surprise Josie was the witch elected to be a member of the honour council. They've been hinting at Josie being the stronger twin anyway and this is just the first real instance of it. It's a shame Lizzie/Rafael hooked up. That did drop a couple of points for both characters, but moreso Rafael since he's the one who just kissed Josie the day before and is having sex with Lizzie after. I know he's a teenager, and a new werewolf, and hormones be crazy, but this isn't a stellar look for him. I mean, Hope's definitely pushing her boundaries with her tri-brid status, but if Alaric wasn't such a pushover, maybe Hope wouldn't feel so entitled. I can't blame Josie or Lizzie for being pissy at Hope. She DOES get away with a lot. And I say this as someone who does like Hope. Landon/Hope? Yawn. Josie/Rafael/Lizzie love triangle? Yawn. On the plus side, Landon marginally entertains me now. Everyone's been treating him like shit and he hasn't really done anything on purpose. I really can't stand him being paired with Hope, but otherwise, he seems decent enough. The actor even had some charisma during his testing scenes. 2 Link to comment
ElectricBoogaloo November 30, 2018 Author Share November 30, 2018 (edited) I've been shaking my head over Alaric's attitude to the new creatures popping up this season. His whole "but _____ don't exist!" argument holds no water considering what he's seen over the course of his time in Mystic Falls. At some point in his life, he thought vampires didn't exist either and then his wife became one. Then there was no such thing as a vampire werewolf hybrid...until Klaus (and then his minions). Then there was some supernatural rule about how vampires couldn't be witches...until Lillian and the Heretics. Then there was no such thing as a vampire witch werewolf...until Hope. So yeah, just saying that it doesn't exist/it's not real/it's only in fairytales is not really holding up there, Alaric! I guess now it's just a matter of time before we find out what kind of new/old supernatural fairy tale creature Landon is. Dragon? Gargoyle? Dryad? Leprechaun? Hobbit? Tooth fairy? Edited November 30, 2018 by ElectricBoogaloo 6 Link to comment
Diapason Untuned November 30, 2018 Share November 30, 2018 14 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said: I've been shaking my head over Alaric's attitude to the new creatures popping up this season. His whole "but _____ don't exist!" argument holds no water considering what he's seen over the course of his time in Mystic Falls. At some point in his life, he thought vampires didn't exist either and then his wife became one. Then there was no such thing as a vampire werewolf hybrid...until Klaus (and then his minions). Then there was some supernatural rule about how vampires couldn't be witches...until Lillian and the Heretics. Then there was no such thing as a vampire witch werewolf...until Hope. So yeah, just saying that it doesn't exist/it's not real/it's only in fairytales is not really holding up there, Alaric! This is simply how folks think. It's a shame that a school that's about inclusion for minorities would have that kind of attitude about other minorities because they're unknown. I suppose that's the theme they're trying to explore. As for Penelope, I agreed with everything she said to Lizzie, but her methods leave something to be desired. That kind of stuff can seriously mess up a family. She should have just left it at lecturing Lizzie. 3 Link to comment
Lady Calypso November 30, 2018 Share November 30, 2018 8 minutes ago, Diapason Untuned said: As for Penelope, I agreed with everything she said to Lizzie, but her methods leave something to be desired. That kind of stuff can seriously mess up a family. She should have just left it at lecturing Lizzie. It feels like she's intentionally sabotaging the twins' relationship so that Josie can run to her. But the issue that Penelope doesn't seem to see is that Rafael is in the picture. Penelope may be right about Lizzie, but Penelope's being selfish here as well. She doesn't REALLY care deeply about Josie. She is using her for her own selfish gain, much like Lizzie. 2 Link to comment
Diapason Untuned November 30, 2018 Share November 30, 2018 (edited) 57 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said: It feels like she's intentionally sabotaging the twins' relationship so that Josie can run to her. Would she have confronted Lizzie then? Better to leave Lizzie to do what Lizzie does best, and sabotage herself. Quote But the issue that Penelope doesn't seem to see is that Rafael is in the picture. Penelope knows Josie is the type to put what she thinks is right above her own desires, so perhaps she got Josie elected to the honour council so she would get rid of Landon and piss off Rafael, driving him away from Josie and leaving her way clear. Edited November 30, 2018 by Diapason Untuned 2 Link to comment
ElectricBoogaloo November 30, 2018 Author Share November 30, 2018 I'd bet it's more of a kill two birds with one stone thing with Penelope, but I think she genuinely wants Josie to be able to get out from underneath the crushing boulder of being Lizzie's twin/fixer/servant/one person support group. Penelope specifically said that Josie didn't have time to have a relationship with her because she was always running off to take care of whatever Lizzie's latest crisis was, so I think that she initially resented Lizzie's constant neediness taking Josie away and then she got sick of watching Lizzie treat Josie like a minion instead of an equal. 5 Link to comment
Lady Calypso November 30, 2018 Share November 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said: I'd bet it's more of a kill two birds with one stone thing with Penelope, but I think she genuinely wants Josie to be able to get out from underneath the crushing boulder of being Lizzie's twin/fixer/servant/one person support group. Penelope specifically said that Josie didn't have time to have a relationship with her because she was always running off to take care of whatever Lizzie's latest crisis was, so I think that she initially resented Lizzie's constant neediness taking Josie away and then she got sick of watching Lizzie treat Josie like a minion instead of an equal. I guess it could be a combination of all of it. Penelope witnessed Lizzie's treatment of Josie first hand and thinks Josie deserves better, but she also wants Josie to be with her and she cares about Josie enough where she thinks it will benefit both of them. It definitely could be more complex than an either/or situation. 30 minutes ago, Diapason Untuned said: Would she have confronted Lizzie then? Better to leave Lizzie to do what Lizzie does best, and sabotage herself. I think that perhaps, Penelope's purpose was to rile Lizzie up. I think Penelope sees Lizzie as self-sabotaging but instead of just nudging Josie, she's nudging Lizzie as well. But yeah, also maybe she does actually care about Josie as much as she hates Lizzie. Also, I assume it was also partially for plot purposes, for the Lizzie/Rafael hook-up. 2 Link to comment
ursula November 30, 2018 Share November 30, 2018 This is the first time the Josie/Penelope dynamic came across as exes, not estranged platonic friends so good on the show. I don't know if Raf is right to assume anything wrt to Josie. She kissed him out of expediency and they've apparently never DTR'd. And I thought it was clear that he didn't sleep with Lizzie to spite Josie but that they both got carried away. The problem with the "Lizzie takes advantage of Josie" is that it's a bit one-sided. We've never really seen Josie demand something and been rejected/refused by Lizzie, or Lizzie "punish" Josie for not toeing the line. The problem seems more about Josie being unable to assert herself to her sister. 5 Link to comment
Lady Calypso November 30, 2018 Share November 30, 2018 4 minutes ago, ursula said: This is the first time the Josie/Penelope dynamic came across as exes, not estranged platonic friends so good on the show. I don't know if Raf is right to assume anything wrt to Josie. She kissed him out of expediency and they've apparently never DTR'd. And I thought it was clear that he didn't sleep with Lizzie to spite Josie but that they both got carried away. The problem with the "Lizzie takes advantage of Josie" is that it's a bit one-sided. We've never really seen Josie demand something and been rejected/refused by Lizzie, or Lizzie "punish" Josie for not toeing the line. The problem seems more about Josie being unable to assert herself to her sister. I can agree with most of this. Although, with regards to Josie/Rafael, the show made it clear that Josie and Rafael both felt something behind that kiss from last episode, especially evident by their scenes at the beginning of this episode, where Rafael was friendly with Josie. It's hard to say about the Lizzie/Rafael sex scene (well sex off screen scene), but I think Rafael not stopping it didn't reflect well on him. He may not have consciously slept with Lizzie to spite Josie, but he wasn't happy with her after she voted to kick out his foster brother, Lizzie even brought it up in that scene, and I think both of their motivations were Josie-related (Lizzie more because Penelope brought up a hard truth and Rafael because Landon was gone, both related to Josie). We won't know for sure about this, though, until there's an actual conversation about it so it's merely speculation. That's what bothers me about this. I can see why Josie feels inferior to Lizzie, but it's been a lot of tell, not show. Yes, Lizzie's been fairly oblivious to her sister's feelings but at the same time, Josie has never stood up for herself. Lizzie doesn't know that Josie likes Rafael. We don't know if Lizzie has ever demanded her sister not see one of the guys they're both interested in. So, until we get that scene, there is a disconnect with that plot. We know Lizzie's demanding and self absorbed, but she's not selfish. We saw her save Pedro in the third episode and trap the gargoyle within the confines of the school, for example. We know Josie doesn't like that everything revolves around Lizzie but that's more because Lizzie is more outspoken and she has trouble controlling her emotions. Like Alaric said in the pilot, Josie's issue is co-dependency. 3 Link to comment
Diapason Untuned November 30, 2018 Share November 30, 2018 22 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said: It's hard to say about the Lizzie/Rafael sex scene (well sex off screen scene), but I think Rafael not stopping it didn't reflect well on him. He may not have consciously slept with Lizzie to spite Josie, but he wasn't happy with her after she voted to kick out his foster brother, Lizzie even brought it up in that scene, and I think both of their motivations were Josie-related (Lizzie more because Penelope brought up a hard truth and Rafael because Landon was gone, both related to Josie). We won't know for sure about this, though, until there's an actual conversation about it so it's merely speculation. 33 minutes ago, ursula said: And I thought it was clear that he didn't sleep with Lizzie to spite Josie but that they both got carried away. If Rafael is aware that Josie has feelings for him, coupled with what just happened with Landon, then there is probably some element of spite involved. Quote That's what bothers me about this. I can see why Josie feels inferior to Lizzie, but it's been a lot of tell, not show. Yes, Lizzie's been fairly oblivious to her sister's feelings but at the same time, Josie has never stood up for herself. Lizzie doesn't know that Josie likes Rafael. We don't know if Lizzie has ever demanded her sister not see one of the guys they're both interested in. So, until we get that scene, there is a disconnect with that plot. We know Lizzie's demanding and self absorbed, but she's not selfish. We saw her save Pedro in the third episode and trap the gargoyle within the confines of the school, for example. We know Josie doesn't like that everything revolves around Lizzie but that's more because Lizzie is more outspoken and she has trouble controlling her emotions. Like Alaric said in the pilot, Josie's issue is co-dependency. Quote The problem with the "Lizzie takes advantage of Josie" is that it's a bit one-sided. We've never really seen Josie demand something and been rejected/refused by Lizzie, or Lizzie "punish" Josie for not toeing the line. The problem seems more about Josie being unable to assert herself to her sister. Sure, Josie has problems with asserting herself, but I don't think that gives Lizzie the right to treat her sister badly. 1 Link to comment
ursula November 30, 2018 Share November 30, 2018 46 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said: I can see why Josie feels inferior to Lizzie, but it's been a lot of tell, not show. Yes, Lizzie's been fairly oblivious to her sister's feelings but at the same time, Josie has never stood up for herself. Lizzie doesn't know that Josie likes Rafael. We don't know if Lizzie has ever demanded her sister not see one of the guys they're both interested in. So, until we get that scene, there is a disconnect with that plot. We know Lizzie's demanding and self absorbed, but she's not selfish. We saw her save Pedro in the third episode and trap the gargoyle within the confines of the school, for example. We know Josie doesn't like that everything revolves around Lizzie but that's more because Lizzie is more outspoken and she has trouble controlling her emotions. Like Alaric said in the pilot, Josie's issue is co-dependency. I pretty much agree with this. We've seen Josie assert herself several times. And, coincidentally, in the "Pedro" episode, Josie is clearly pissed at Lizzie throwing her under the bus, and says as much. So there's the show and tell disconnect again. 48 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said: Although, with regards to Josie/Rafael, the show made it clear that Josie and Rafael both felt something behind that kiss from last episode, especially evident by their scenes at the beginning of this episode, where Rafael was friendly with Josie. He had sort of expressed an interest in the pilot, and she deflected to Lizzie. And in this episode, Lizzie tries to blackmail him into a date and Josie's reaction is hard to read (she could have been cringing with embarrassment for her sister's behavior). I don't think it reflects in anyway at him. He was upset, and someone offered a form of comfort to him. 1 Link to comment
ElectricBoogaloo November 30, 2018 Author Share November 30, 2018 3 hours ago, Diapason Untuned said: Sure, Josie has problems with asserting herself, but I don't think that gives Lizzie the right to treat her sister badly. This times a million. Josie might not yell at Lizzie constantly about what she wants, but it's still on Lizzie for expecting the focus to always be on her. I mean, just look at the first scene she had in this episode. She was berating Josie for not paying enough attention to Lizzie staring at herself in the mirror. And Lizzie thinks she has dibs on Rafael because she literally called dibs on him in the first episode. She bulldozes Josie because as much as Lizzie says she loves Josie, Lizzie loves Lizzie more than anything else on the planet. She is frequently oblivious to Josie's reactions because she's so self-absorbed. Yes, Josie could assert herself more often but we've seen what happens when she tries to speak up - either Lizzie ignores her, dismissively brushes her concerns aside, or gets mad that Josie disagrees with her. As much as I'd like to see Josie stand up to Lizzie more, I don't think it's right to blame Josie for the way that Lizzie treats her (and when is it ever right to blame a person for someone else's behavior? That's like saying, "Geez, Landon, why did you let Jed beat you up?"). Lizzie makes a choice to treat her sister like she's a subordinate. That's on her, not Josie. Heh, I just realized that Lizzie's expectation for unquestioning obedience and loyalty is what she has in common with Klaus! It's only the fifth episode and we have seen Josie try to help Lizzie in multiple ways, yet when have we ever seen Lizzie try to do something nice or helpful for Josie? 6 Link to comment
Diapason Untuned November 30, 2018 Share November 30, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, ursula said: I pretty much agree with this. We've seen Josie assert herself several times. And, coincidentally, in the "Pedro" episode, Josie is clearly pissed at Lizzie throwing her under the bus, and says as much. So there's the show and tell disconnect again. Josie isn't a total doormat at all times (that would be really odd), but it's clear that there is a pattern of Lizzie subsuming Josie in her own wants and desires. There's nothing inconsistent here. Quote I don't think it reflects in anyway at him. He was upset, and someone offered a form of comfort to him. Which would be fine if it wasn't the sister of someone who has feelings for him and just happened to screw him over very recently. In a situation like that, it's basically impossible for some level of spite to not be involved in Raf's decision making. He himself might not even be aware of it, which is why the wiser decision would have been not to do that. Edited November 30, 2018 by Diapason Untuned 1 Link to comment
Lady Calypso December 1, 2018 Share December 1, 2018 4 hours ago, Diapason Untuned said: Sure, Josie has problems with asserting herself, but I don't think that gives Lizzie the right to treat her sister badly. Very true. To be clear, I don't find Lizzie to be right in the way she treats Josie. Just in certain circumstances, like the Rafael situation, Josie should be perfectly honest with Lizzie. Of course, if Lizzie gets pissed if Josie is honest, then that's all on her. They're definitely setting up Josie to finally stand up to Lizzie at some point, but in a way that'll tear the twins apart for at least a couple of episode. Since I'm pretty positive they'll renew for a season two, it could carry over then. Link to comment
Terrafamilia December 1, 2018 Share December 1, 2018 I remember that ball of truth back when it was a cube on The Good Place. I guess I'm not the target audience since I thought there was altogether too much kissing. Maybe it wasn't so much the kissing but who was doing it. Link to comment
ursula December 1, 2018 Share December 1, 2018 (edited) 13 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said: we've seen what happens when she tries to speak up - either Lizzie ignores her, dismissively brushes her concerns aside, or gets mad that Josie disagrees with her. As much as I'd like to see Josie stand up to Lizzie more, I don't think it's right to blame Josie for the way that Lizzie treats her I don't think it's as black and white as that. For one thing, Lizzie calling dibs on the hot new student, Josie not indicating her own interest and getting hurt in the process is 100% Josie's fault. For another, the actual story doesn't line up with this narrative of Lizzie emotionally parasiting on her sister. We've seen Josie defy Lizzie on something she considered important - the townies game- and stayed defiant, without Lizzie punishing her for that. We've seen Lizzie be emotionally supportive in her own way with respect to Penelope. If the show really wants to demonstrate the twins as an unhealthy dynamic and not siblings being... siblings and all the push/pull that comes with it, they're doing a poor job. Penelope is another example of bad writing. Now suddenly she's telling the audience that Lizzie's neediness broke her relationship with Josie... Which I'd believe if the show had ever portrayed them as ex-lovers and not Gossip Girl-esque ex-besties. Penelope herself is just all over the place. If all she's wanted was more me time with Josie then why does she want to watch the world burn? And regarding Raf, I've been trying to figure out what makes me so uncomfortable until I did a mental gender switch and realized it: Josie is The Nice Guy in this dynamic. She has a crush on him, kisses him under a pretext and suddenly he is responsible for her feelings. Raf has never indicated romantic interest in Josie. I don't believe he is aware she's interested in him but even if he were, why is it his responsibility to consider her feelings? Because if the genders were reversed, would it really be OK to blame Rachel for hooking up with Joe's brother because of Joe's one-sided crush on her? To give Joe what amounts to ownership over Rachel's sexual life because Joe has feelings for her that he may or may not have articulated? Edited December 1, 2018 by ursula gender switch not gender such! 3 Link to comment
Diapason Untuned December 1, 2018 Share December 1, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, ursula said: I don't think it's as black and white as that. For one thing, Lizzie calling dibs on the hot new student, Josie not indicating her own interest and getting hurt in the process is 100% Josie's fault. For another, the actual story doesn't line up with this narrative of Lizzie emotionally parasiting on her sister. We've seen Josie defy Lizzie on something she considered important - the townies game- and stayed defiant, without Lizzie punishing her for that. We've seen Lizzie be emotionally supportive in her own way with respect to Penelope. If the show really wants to demonstrate the twins as an unhealthy dynamic and not siblings being... siblings and all the push/pull that comes with it, they're doing a poor job. As I said above, just because Josie is not 100% under Lizzie's thumb 100% of the time doesn't mean that there isn't a problem with how Lizzie treats her sister andhow Josie just accepts it in general. Quote Penelope herself is just all over the place. If all she's wanted was more me time with Josie then why does she want to watch the world burn? She wants Lizzie's world to burn, perhaps so she'll fiinally grow some self-reflection and treat her sister better. The method was trash, but the idea was good. Quote And regarding Raf, I've been trying to figure out what makes me so uncomfortable until I did a mental gender switch and realized it: Josie is The Nice Guy in this dynamic. She has a crush on him, kisses him under a pretext and suddenly he is responsible for her feelings. Raf has never indicated romantic interest in Josie. I don't believe he is aware she's interested in him but even if he were, why is it his responsibility to consider her feelings? Raf doesn't need to be responsible for Josie's feelings, but his own actions, more specifically the motivations behind them. Assuming Raf is aware of Josie's feelings, can Raf honestly say that sleeping with her sister literally minutes after Josie screwed him over has nothing to do with him trying to spite Josie? If he can't, then he shouldn't do anything like that with Lizzie. Involving yourself with personal relationships, especially of the family variety, out of spite is a nasty practice. Edited December 1, 2018 by Diapason Untuned 1 Link to comment
Josie means Love December 1, 2018 Share December 1, 2018 (edited) I'm kinda starting to dislike Rafael, to be honest. I liked him initially, but I hated the way he treated Josie in this episode. He ignored her completely because he was being selfish imo. Raf and Lizzie only had like 1 scene together so far in the show, and he told her that he doesn't like girls like her in it. But, despite that, he came running to her when he thought she'd be the witch representative, asking her to vote for Landon to stay. And Lizzie being Lizzie just agreed to help him and even asked him to be her date on her birthday, knowing that he's going to owe her a favor. I never thought I'd say that, but Penelope was the best character in this episode. She was right for everything she said. I just want Josie to make a stand really soon, I want her to tell Lizzie that she likes Raf as well, that she kissed him etc. Let's see what's going to happen then. If Lizzie took what Penelope said, she's going to back off for the sake of her sister's happiness. But if she didn't and she keeps being... well, Lizzie, she's going to cause a great strain to their relationship. On the other hand, it looks like Rafael's going to be just another Damon from S1 - hooking up with everything that breathes lol. He used to love his girlfriend deeply, who died like, 1 month ago? His school files say he has feelings for Hope, and no matter what everyone's saying - he expressed genuine interest in Josie in episode 4, not just the kiss and their whole web thingy. And now, one episode later, he sleeps with her sister. What the hell man, just pick a girl, at least Damon knew exactly who he wanted. I really, really, really hope that Jo from next episode is really Jo. She's the best person to make things right between the twins and, as we can see in the promo, she already has some sweet mother-daughter moments with Josie. Knowing Plec and taking the ending of the promo into consideration, it's not even Jo to begin with and we're only going to see Jodi Lyn O'Keefe for 1 episode, which, well, sucks. Edited December 1, 2018 by Josie means Love Link to comment
UNOSEZ December 1, 2018 Share December 1, 2018 51 minutes ago, Diapason Untuned said: Assuming Raf is aware of Josie's feelings, That's the problem.. We can't be sure he knows.. Like everyone else I think he's seen Josie defend to Lizzie... Unlike Josie.. Lizzie has been very direct with her feelings towards RAF... So in his moment of grief/anger he went to blow off steam.. Lizzie happened to be there and the two hotheaded supernatural teenagers got it on.. I'll admit not a great look for RAF.. But nothing I'm going to ding him on.. At least not yet 2 Link to comment
ketose December 1, 2018 Share December 1, 2018 My guess is that the Honor Council will have a very short life at the school, especially since it was a plot device created for this episode. I actually have no problem with Landon and Hope as a couple. At least there's not a triangle there. Penelope might be the worst kind of villain, the kind who does bad things because she thinks she's doing something good. My guess is that she is also an emotional black hole and was tired of Lizzie pulling Josie away. Then again, I find it disturbing that 15 year olds on TV can be involved in sexual relationships with no blowback. I'm back to being on the Matt side of the equation. 3 kids got killed as a consequence of weird shit at the Salvatore school, not to mention all the girls Kaleb was snacking on. Plus, it doesn't seem like Kaleb is dried out yet. Why can't he perform his completely made up duties on Honor Council from his cell via Skype? Klaus might as well be running that school. 2 Link to comment
Lambsilencer December 1, 2018 Share December 1, 2018 (edited) I always have a problem if a show does not show the direct consequences of bullying. I think it sends a dangerous message if Jed gets to attack Landon like that, and not only does Hope stop Raphael from retaliating (which might be OK because Raphael would probably have killed him, and that's not the answer, either), but there were no consequences shown for Jed for this vicious attack against Landon. If I were Alaric, Jed would have been expelled, no questions asked. Only if the punishment is extremely severe it shows that there is an absolute zero tolerance for any kind of bullying at this school. And it would send the strong message that there are the most severe consequences for that. The message should be that there is no place in this world for you if you go down that road. Too bad the show missed that opportunity. Edited December 1, 2018 by Lambsilencer 1 Link to comment
Gwen-Stacys December 1, 2018 Share December 1, 2018 On 11/30/2018 at 8:49 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said: High school councils are great for things like planning the homecoming dance. That's about it. They shouldn't be deciding if a student stays or goes. Hope's speech about why Landon should go made no sense. First she blamed Rafael for not being around when Jed attacked Landon, as if it's Rafael's responsibility to be Landon's personal bodyguard 24/7. That's not even victim blaming. That's blaming people who are adjacent to the victim. It's like asking a rape victim's friend why they weren't there to prevent the rape from happening in the first place. Uh, how about we blame the actual perpetrator? When Hope said that if Landon stayed, it would be on all of them to protect him, I was like YES, IT IS EVERYONE'S RESPONSIBILITY NOT TO BEAT THE SHIT OUT OF A FELLOW STUDENT. Why is that so difficult to accept? Kaleb's argument made more sense than Hope's did. I remember our honor council's had to do things like that: decide the punishment of a fellow student. We had one in college too for the same thing. I didn't see Hope blaming Raphael for Landon getting beet up, but pointing out that he can't protect him all the time. None of them can, it's impossible. And they go to a school where the students tend to show their anger through setting people's clothes on fire or beating them up. I thought her reasoning had merit, but Josie's definitely made the most sense. Rafael didn't have an argument for it, and that might also be why he got so angry. Josie's logic was sound. On 11/30/2018 at 9:21 AM, Chris24601 said: Silly, silly Alaric... couldn't you foresee the inherent problem with making Student Council membership positions supernatural-type? Ehh, kind of saw it as him copying off of what Hayley, Freya, Vincent, and Josh did in NO (on The Originals) They had peace there for years before the Natzi vamps ruined it. On 11/30/2018 at 9:43 AM, Lady Calypso said: It's a shame Lizzie/Rafael hooked up. That did drop a couple of points for both characters, but moreso Rafael since he's the one who just kissed Josie the day before and is having sex with Lizzie after. I know he's a teenager, and a new werewolf, and hormones be crazy, but this isn't a stellar look for him. To be fair to Raf, he was kissed on both occasions. He has never been the instigator in anything physical with either sister, just reacted. I still maintain that Hope cannot be the Elena of this series, because that it Raf. Everyone loves him. And if those student file spoilers are to be believed, then Spoiler he's gonna start developing feelings for Hope in Landon's absence. And I wouldn't be surprised if she reciprocated, at least physically. Hope's actress has more chemistry with Raf's actor than she does with Landon's. Quote I mean, Hope's definitely pushing her boundaries with her tri-brid status, but if Alaric wasn't such a pushover, maybe Hope wouldn't feel so entitled. I can't blame Josie or Lizzie for being pissy at Hope. She DOES get away with a lot. And I say this as someone who does like Hope. LMAO! That was literally the most Klaus thing she's done since stuffing her mother in a coffin! 3 hours ago, ketose said: Penelope might be the worst kind of villain, the kind who does bad things because she thinks she's doing something good. My guess is that she is also an emotional black hole and was tired of Lizzie pulling Josie away. Then again, I find it disturbing that 15 year olds on TV can be involved in sexual relationships with no blowback. 15 year olds have sex in real life. I will say that most of my friends in high school were active around 15-16ish. It's kind of the norm and also why some states in the US (not all) have their schools push sex education around that age 1 hour ago, Lambsilencer said: I always have a problem if a show does not show the direct consequences of bullying. I think it sends a dangerous message if Jed gets to attack Landon like that, and not only does Hope stop Raphael from retaliating (which might be OK because Raphael would probably have killed him, and that's not the answer, either), but there were no consequences shown for Jed for this vicious attack against Landon. If I were Alaric, Jed would have been expelled, no questions asked. Only if the punishment is extremely severe it shows that there is an absolute zero tolerance for any kind of bullying at this school. And it would send the strong message that there are the most severe consequences for that. The message should be that there is no place in this world for you if you go down that road. Too bad the show missed that opportunity. I think Jed ran off after the fact. Emma left the Honor Council to help lead the search party to find him. I have no thoughts of my own because everyone's already said them. Alaric sucks as a headmaster and needs to check his relationship with Hope a little (even if he did lowkey raise her). We see him talking to her at the end of the episode instead of his own daughters. Penelope was right, if a little harsh. Rafael is the new Elena and is gonna come between two siblings one way or another. Hope is still my fave, but I'm not feeling her with Landon. Do like that he makes her smile tho, so I guess there's that. I liked Landon this episode and I'm calling either blonde vamp (he was way too attractive to be a one off!) or Landon's mom as the season's big bad. Good job not dying, Dorian. Legacies has more black male actors in the first five eps than VAmpire diaries had in all 6 seasons! (Never forgive Elena for Killing Nanceford!) 3 Link to comment
Check Sanity December 1, 2018 Share December 1, 2018 On 11/30/2018 at 8:49 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said: Oh, sweet innocent naive MG, I knew as soon as you had that conversation with Kaleb that he was going to get himself elected instead. Like many parents, Alaric has good intentions but shitty ideas. Yes, you should be more honest with the kids about what kind of world they live in and the dangers they face. Creating an honor council is not the appropriate way to deal with that. You know what IS the appropriate way to deal with that? JUST BE HONEST WITH THE STUDENTS. Maybe have a school wide discussion about what they think is missing from the curriculum (like proactive spells instead of just defensive spells). High school councils are great for things like planning the homecoming dance. That's about it. They shouldn't be deciding if a student stays or goes. Hope's speech about why Landon should go made no sense. First she blamed Rafael for not being around when Jed attacked Landon, as if it's Rafael's responsibility to be Landon's personal bodyguard 24/7. That's not even victim blaming. That's blaming people who are adjacent to the victim. It's like asking a rape victim's friend why they weren't there to prevent the rape from happening in the first place. Uh, how about we blame the actual perpetrator? When Hope said that if Landon stayed, it would be on all of them to protect him, I was like YES, IT IS EVERYONE'S RESPONSIBILITY NOT TO BEAT THE SHIT OUT OF A FELLOW STUDENT. Why is that so difficult to accept? Kaleb's argument made more sense than Hope's did. Related side note: I understand why Alaric started the school and I support educating supernatural beings about who they are and what else is out there. But keeping them separated from humans has resulted in this weird attitude where everyone at the Salvatore School hates the human kids at Mystic Falls and now they think it's okay to beat up a human just for being human. That is a problem. Alaric needs to spend some time finding ways to get the witches, vampires, and werewolves to be a lot nicer to each other as well as to humans. There needs to be a lot more tolerance and less clique-ishness. Of all the arguments that were made for/against Landon staying, Josie's was the most logical and she was the only one to put aside her personal feelings to make the decision that she thought was best for the school (I'm leaving Emma out of the equation since she had no personal feelings about Landon). I love how Hope had to administer Landon's tests because Emma was busy taking care of the school, which amounted to not noticing that there was a huge werewolf fight in the gym. Later Emma was too busy taking care of the school to go let Kaleb out of the dungeon herself and sent MG to do it. Ooookay. And she represents the lower grades but she isn't going to stay for the first council meeting. Nope, just cast her vote and then peaced the fuck out. Heh, why don't they use the ball of truth more often? Oh, right. Because it's a plot device. Ugh, Lizzie. What an entitled brat! She already asked Emma if Josie could step down before discussing it with Josie. Lizzie would step on her sister's neck to get what she wants. This is the most that I have ever liked Penelope. It's about time that someone told Lizzie what a selfish and shitty sister she is. Claiming you love someone doesn't mean that you don't treat them like crap. I find it sad that Alaric and Dorian, who are students/teachers of the supernatural kept referring to the dryad as a monster TO HER FACE. And even though they knew she couldn't control the impulse to try to get the knife, neither of them apologized for KILLING HER. The closest we got was Dorian saying, "I'm sorry this happened." So by "this," you mean luring her to you, capturing her, imprisoning her, and then killing her? The worst part about the Rafael/Lizzie sex scene was all I could think about is both of them getting all that sand in some very uncomfortable places. 6 My thought when MG was talking to Kaleb "oh my poor sweet dummy". Very poorly thought out. Why was this decided within a single day? This school needs more teachers. I'm going to jump to the Emma thing here, she was the only adult seemingly left on campus. I doubt that's the case, but still. Also based on how this school works as shown thus far, Emma probably knew about the werewolf fight in the gym but it's likely considered a pack matter. What I don't get is why the alpha is a student and not a teacher, though I guess that'd be problematic in some ways too. I thought it was weird that she didn't stay, but also, she didn't really need to hear their reasons for casting whatever vote they did. What mattered is that any action was made immediately, because the council was meant to contribute their thoughts to decisions regarding the school, not make the final decision. As for the reasons, Hope didn't blame Raphael for anything, she countered Raphael's point that he'd protect Landon, by pointing out how he couldn't do that 24/7. Hope's point about it being everyone's responsibility to protect him has to do with the fact that they are all notably stronger, magical beings who can bounce back from emotional outbursts with each other, Landon can't. The problem with that point is that that is exactly what they are supposed to be learning to do so they can enter the real world with all the "weak" humans. Having Landon there would actually help with the "human element" because there are humans that know the truth about them, and that can be good and bad. They should get used to it. Josie's point while logical seeming was also not fully informed considering Landon is not the source for all the danger, the knife is. Also, Landon's point is wanting to protect HIS family, which is Landon. So as much as Josie has a point, she's also not considering the fact that she's separating Raphael from his family through her decision. Yeah, referring to them all as monsters was super ignorant sounding. 3 Link to comment
Check Sanity December 1, 2018 Share December 1, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, Josie means Love said: I'm kinda starting to dislike Rafael, to be honest. I liked him initially, but I hated the way he treated Josie in this episode. He ignored her completely because he was being selfish imo. Raf and Lizzie only had like 1 scene together so far in the show, and he told her that he doesn't like girls like her in it. But, despite that, he came running to her when he thought she'd be the witch representative, asking her to vote for Landon to stay. And Lizzie being Lizzie just agreed to help him and even asked him to be her date on her birthday, knowing that he's going to owe her a favor. His school files say he has feelings for Hope, and no matter what everyone's saying - he expressed genuine interest in Josie in episode 4, not just the kiss and their whole web thingy. And now, one episode later, he sleeps with her sister. What the hell man, just pick a girl, at least Damon knew exactly who he wanted. 3 How is trying to look out for Landon (his brother) being selfish? His response to Lizzie's date request was to ask if she was blackmailing him. Despite the fact that that was essentially what she was doing, he folded because he thought he needed to so for Landon. What is this about school files? Despide Raphael's interest in Josie (who has been giving him mixed signals), I don't think he's really looking for a girl. They're interested in him and he's reacting to his immediate environment. Not to say that's the best, just not unreasonable behaviour for an overwhelmed teen. 4 hours ago, ketose said: I'm back to being on the Matt side of the equation. 3 kids got killed as a consequence of weird shit at the Salvatore school, not to mention all the girls Kaleb was snacking on. Plus, it doesn't seem like Kaleb is dried out yet. Why can't he perform his completely made up duties on Honor Council from his cell via Skype? Klaus might as well be running that school. 1 Except for Kaleb sucking on the necks of cheerleaders, none of those instances were the fault of students at the school. So Matt is right to be concerned about the school, but should be careful of lumping it all together. 3 hours ago, Lambsilencer said: I always have a problem if a show does not show the direct consequences of bullying. I think it sends a dangerous message if Jed gets to attack Landon like that, and not only does Hope stop Raphael from retaliating (which might be OK because Raphael would probably have killed him, and that's not the answer, either), but there were no consequences shown for Jed for this vicious attack against Landon. If I were Alaric, Jed would have been expelled, no questions asked. Only if the punishment is extremely severe it shows that there is an absolute zero tolerance for any kind of bullying at this school. And it would send the strong message that there are the most severe consequences for that. The message should be that there is no place in this world for you if you go down that road. Too bad the show missed that opportunity. Jed didn’t “get to attack Landon”. He ran away after the incident. If nothing is mentioned next episode, then it’s a problem. As for zero tolerance… that isn’t reasonable in the real world, never mind this fictional one. I won’t get into the real world element, but in terms of this school… this world where all of the werewolves in it have KILLED someone to become what they are. Zero tolerance isn’t going to be a thing. The vampires in that school were themselves killed and their natural urge is to feed and be emotional. The witches wield a whole lot of power that can be expressed in dangerous ways. Plus their all hormonal/volatile kids. Zero tolerance for violence was never going to be a thing on this show. However, they very much should show consequences. I think they will show them in regards to Raphael now being the alpha (the consequences for fighting be alpha), but I realize that’s not exactly what you meant. 1 hour ago, Gwen-Stacys said: Alaric sucks as a headmaster and needs to check his relationship with Hope a little (even if he did lowkey raise her). We see him talking to her at the end of the episode instead of his own daughters. I liked Landon this episode and I'm calling either blonde vamp (he was way too attractive to be a one off!) or Landon's mom as the season's big bad. Good job not dying, Dorian. Legacies has more black male actors in the first five eps than VAmpire diaries had in all 6 seasons! (Never forgive Elena for Killing Nanceford!) 2 Considering she she grew up there for most of her formative years with the brief exception of the few months that took place during The Originals, he high key raised her. I see Hope becoming a teacher there after graduating, because where else is she going to go after? I think she's already halfway there with how much Alaric relies on her for things. It's the CW, everyone is attractive. I'm not sure about Landon's mom being the big bad, but I think she's connected to "it/them". Hahaha. I was confused for a second because the end of last episode definitely had a different magical creature, but at least we can see why Dorian is suitable to be one of Alaric's trusted people. Heh, I'm not sure if that's an accurate stat, but I'm just seriously grateful that they haven't felt the need to kill them all. I still don't think they'll all survive the full season, but here's hoping. I'm also liking that there are varied shades of black too. *Sorry for two posts in a row, my comp was choking while trying to put it into one so I had to break it up. Edited December 1, 2018 by Check Sanity Link to comment
ursula December 1, 2018 Share December 1, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, UNOSEZ said: That's the problem.. We can't be sure he knows.. Like everyone else I think he's seen Josie defend to Lizzie... Unlike Josie.. Lizzie has been very direct with her feelings towards RAF... So in his moment of grief/anger he went to blow off steam.. Lizzie happened to be there and the two hotheaded supernatural teenagers got it on.. I'll admit not a great look for RAF.. But nothing I'm going to ding him on.. At least not yet And my problem is that... Josie's feelings aren't Raf's problem. That's the Nice Guy trope. The Entitled to Love you trope. 8 hours ago, Josie means Love said: I really, really, really hope that Jo from next episode is really Jo. She's the best person to make things right between the twins Even if it were really Jo, at this point she's virtually a stranger. As far as the twins are concerned, their mother is Caroline Forbes. Alaric has known Hope longer than he ever knew Jo. 8 hours ago, Diapason Untuned said: Raf doesn't need to be responsible for Josie's feelings, but his own actions, more specifically the motivations behind them. Assuming Raf is aware of Josie's feelings, can Raf honestly say that sleeping with her sister literally minutes after Josie screwed him over has nothing to do with him trying to spite Josie? Sounds like holding Raf reasonable for Josie's feelings. 1 hour ago, Gwen-Stacys said: Alaric sucks as a headmaster and needs to check his relationship with Hope a little (even if he did lowkey raise her). We see him talking to her at the end of the episode instead of his own daughters. Good job not dying, Dorian. Legacies has more black male actors in the first five eps than VAmpire diaries had in all 6 seasons! (Never forgive Elena for Killing Nanceford!) Lol. Honestly at the end of last episode, I half expected he'd be dead. Like @Check Sanity I don't expect all of them to survive either but that's the thing about numbers. I think it's more like the writers need to check how they portray Alaric/Hope. It's all very well to say he practically raised her but I'm guessing Hope has more family than a lot of other children in that school and Alaric singles her out. Edited December 1, 2018 by ursula Link to comment
Diapason Untuned December 1, 2018 Share December 1, 2018 21 minutes ago, ursula said: Sounds like holding Raf reasonable for Josie's feelings. How did you get that from what I posted? Wanting Raf not to sleep with Lizzie as a way to get back at Josie isn't asking him to be responsible for her feelings. 1 hour ago, Check Sanity said: Josie's point while logical seeming was also not fully informed considering Landon is not the source for all the danger, the knife is. Exactly! The knife will still be at the school, so sending Landon away hasn't reduced the danger at all. They've tested the guy as many ways as they know how, and concluded that he's not dangerous, so they're sending him away out of pure fear. What makes it worse is that Kaleb, who was actually proven to be dangerous to others, was voted into the honour council. Emma should have told them to vote again the moment his name came out. Seriously, that's just telling those kids is that attacking humans is A-OK with the Salvatore School staff. Is it any surprise that the only human on campus was beat to a pulp not long after? 1 Link to comment
ursula December 2, 2018 Share December 2, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Diapason Untuned said: How did you get that from what I posted? Wanting Raf not to sleep with Lizzie as a way to get back at Josie isn't asking him to be responsible for her feelings. From the bolded: you want Raf not to sleep with Lizzie to get back at Josie... even though that isn't what happened. Not even close. He slept with Lizzie because he was upset that he just lost his brother, and Lizzie was a hot girl who came on to him. Yet somehow you've centered Raf's pain and potentially bad sexual choices on Josie's crush on him. I find that kind of reasoning extremely problematic. I suspect that if Raf was Rachel and Josie was Joseph, more people would find this problematic. 4 hours ago, Check Sanity said: Josie's point while logical seeming was also not fully informed considering Landon is not the source for all the danger, the knife is As far as anyone knows, the knife was in the school for (I'm guessing?) 12 years and didn't start calling monsters until Landon took it. So reasoning that Landon, not just the knife, is what heralded the monsters is an informed conclusion. She also makes a very good point* that Landon being an unknown quantity means he's an unknown threat. Today he's activated the Monster-pocalypse Knife. Tomorrow he'll activate the Demon-pocalypse Spoon. Why take the chance? It's not like if Landon has anything to gain from being in the Salvatore School. With no apparent powers, he's essentially a Squib. Sure a Squib would love to go to Hogwarts but what exactly will he do there? *Josie's entire speech was everything I thought of during the discussion about Kaleb's accusation. Edited December 2, 2018 by ursula 1 Link to comment
Gwen-Stacys December 2, 2018 Share December 2, 2018 3 hours ago, Check Sanity said: Considering she she grew up there for most of her formative years with the brief exception of the few months that took place during The Originals, he high key raised her. I still maintain lowkey. Hayley was very much present in Hope's life before she died two years before this show. As was Marcel and Freya and Kol (via Facetime). Josie mentioned how often Hayley would visit Hope. The book she pulls out for the black magic spells in episode two was Kol's gift to her (hidden so she could bring it to school unquestioned). The spells she uses that Josie/Lizzie don't know, she learned from Freya (she says as much re: the astral spell she uses to see Landon in episode 3). In The Originals, her mother's boyfriend Declan has a very strong relationship with her (even taught her how to drive) showing that even though she's in boarding school, she was still very much connected to her family. I don't think her closeness with Alaric was a thing before she was 15 (and lost a mother, a father, and an uncle). And almost seems revisionist, given his only scene in season 5 of TO was arguing with Caroline in regards to using their daughter to save Hope's life (something he was hesitant to do). The problem with the show is that they're making it seem like Hope has no one, which isn't true. She's got 2 biological aunts and an Uncle left who love her very much and would more than likely keep in touch (as they did even when they physically couldn't be around her). And through them she's got an Uncle (who's also her adoptive brother, and made a promise to be there for her) and two aunts. If anything happened to Hope at the school and none of them show up (or they don't mention them dropping by/being in town, but never on screen) I call foul. Because even Davina helped Klaus (who she HATED and didn't even come to his living funeral with her husband) when Hope was in trouble. The girl is very much loved and very much not alone. 2 hours ago, ursula said: I think it's more like the writers need to check how they portray Alaric/Hope. It's all very well to say he practically raised her but I'm guessing Hope has more family than a lot of other children in that school and Alaric singles her out. Agreed. But again, I think that has to do more with how Hope's family have prepared her. When she leaves the school, she's still being educated by Freya, Vincent (who's Freya and Keelin's baby daddy), Kol (who has a lot of witch knowledge, trinkets) and Davina (who's no slouch) with her witch stuff. She's probably more equipped offensively and defensively to handle threats than most of the teachers. In fact, she's taken out 50% of the monsters on this show. 3 Link to comment
Diapason Untuned December 2, 2018 Share December 2, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, ursula said: From the bolded: you want Raf not to sleep with Lizzie to get back at Josie... even though that isn't what happened. Not even close. He slept with Lizzie because he was upset that he just lost his brother, and Lizzie was a hot girl who came on to him. Josie has feelings for Raf, then betrays him. Not even an hour later, he's sleeping with her sister, whom he had very recently indicated to that he had no feelings for. Unless Raf is completely oblivious to Josie's obvious attraction to him, it sure seems that there is some element of spite involved. Quote Yet somehow you've centered Raf's pain and potentially bad sexual choices on Josie's crush on him. I'm centering Raf's sexual choices on his desire to get back at Josie. Unless he can be sure that he's not doing it for that purpose, he shouldn't do anything with Lizzie. Quote As far as anyone knows, the knife was in the school for (I'm guessing?) 12 years and didn't start calling monsters until Landon took it. So reasoning that Landon, not just the knife, is what heralded the monsters is an informed conclusion. As this episode demonstrated with the dryad, there's nothing special about Landon except proximity to the knife. Whatever he is, every test they ran on him and actual painful experience tells them that there is nothing dangerous about him specifically. For all they could know, maybe some demonic spirit inside the knife woke up and controlled Landon out of sheer convinience. Quote She also makes a very good point* that Landon being an unknown quantity means he's an unknown threat. NO. Being unknown simply means you're unknown, it doesn't make you a threat. But then again, this is the Salvatore School I'm talking about here. Seeing how Alaric and Dorian treated that poor dryad, I guess it's only some supernatural creatures that need protection, eh? Quote Why take the chance? If they're willing to get rid of Landon because something happened to him outside of his control, one wonders why they're perfectly OK keeping Kaleb, who has already proven, with his own choices, to be dangerous. Why take the chance of him killing some poor girl some day? Quote It's not like if Landon has anything to gain from being in the Salvatore School. He gets to stay with his brother. Plus, as Emma pointed out, the school is supposed to protect kids that get wrapped up in supernatural stuff. Edited December 2, 2018 by Diapason Untuned 1 Link to comment
ursula December 2, 2018 Share December 2, 2018 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Diapason Untuned said: I'm centering Raf's sexual choices on his desire to get back at Josie. 😶 15 minutes ago, Diapason Untuned said: Being unknown simply means you're unknown, it doesn't make you a threat. But It doesn't not make him a threat either. 15 minutes ago, Diapason Untuned said: For all they could know, maybe some demonic spirit inside the knife woke up and controlled Landon out of sheer convinience. And this hypothetical demonic spirit was inert until Landon. 15 minutes ago, Diapason Untuned said: He gets to stay with his brother. It's not a permanent separation. I imagine he can still call/email etc. If he gets somewhere to stay, Raf can come spend the holiday. And Raf will eventually graduate from that school. Siblings who go to different colleges or have divorced parents are separated for further distances and longer. 15 minutes ago, Diapason Untuned said: Plus, as Emma pointed out, the school is supposed to protect kids that get wrapped up in supernatural stuff. 😂 Well either Raf is connected to the knife or he's not. In one breath, you're arguing that he's nothing to do with the Monsterpocalypse and in the other, he's wrapped up in supernatural stuff? And either option is a case for Landon and the school to stay apart. If he's really unrelated to the Knife then he's only connection to the supernatural is via Raf, in which case: what I said about communication and the Squib-in-Hogwarts argument. If he is related to the Knife then keeping him away from a school where he might unknowingly trigger more magical catalysts is the safer option. There are a lot of emotional, sentimental reasons for Landon to stay in the school but I'm sorry but I can't see any logical ones. Edited December 2, 2018 by ursula 3 Link to comment
ursula December 2, 2018 Share December 2, 2018 31 minutes ago, Gwen-Stacys said: But again, I think that has to do more with how Hope's family have prepared her. When she leaves the school, she's still being educated by Freya, Vincent (who's Freya and Keelin's baby daddy), Kol (who has a lot of witch knowledge, trinkets) and Davina (who's no slouch) with her witch stuff. She's probably more equipped offensively and defensively to handle threats than most of the teachers. It kind of begs the question of why Hope is even there. She's clearly not getting the social experience that she and Hayley wanted. And if it's power/skills, the school's curriculum is behind her skills. And you're right about the revisionist relationship with Alaric. The way the show was portrayed in season 5 TO, there was no hint of a particular relationship with Alaric. Caroline played the active role in the Klaus "intervention", telling him about healing his relationship with Hope before it was too late, and later in the season, asking him to give her the chance of a proper goodbye. She played the active role of tracking and searching for Hope when she ran off with NaziBoy. And she's the one who approaches the twins to save Hope. Alaric plays no role in this, actively discourages the plan - being more worried about Klaus getting more power than Hope dying, and later being concerned that his twins's welfare. He shows no particular concern for what Hope is going through and seems more upset about Caroline's lingering feelings for Klaus than the girl. So the emphasis now that he practically raised her rings false. If Hope didn't have any family, then Alaric's pseudo-adoption would make sense but as you pointed, she did so...! 😂 1 Link to comment
ketose December 2, 2018 Share December 2, 2018 4 hours ago, Check Sanity said: Except for Kaleb sucking on the necks of cheerleaders, none of those instances were the fault of students at the school. So Matt is right to be concerned about the school, but should be careful of lumping it all together. I do consider it piling on for Alaric to keep magical objects of unknown power inside the school near Mystic Falls. The Armory was a better idea until the dumb ass Salvatore brothers decided to break it. 1 Link to comment
Diapason Untuned December 2, 2018 Share December 2, 2018 (edited) 51 minutes ago, ursula said: 😶 Yup, centered on his desire to hurt her. It has nothing to do with any responsiibility he feels towards her feelings, nor are the two equivalent. Quote It doesn't not make him a threat either. It doesn't not not make him a threat. We can add 'not's' for eternity, but the info they have now, that he's a stooge for the knife, isn't enough to justify geting rid of him, unless you support treating folks differently based on some vague fear that his othing to do with their actions. Quote And this hypothetical demonic spirit was inert until Landon. Correlation does not equal causation. Quote 😂 Well either Raf is connected to the knife or he's not. In one breath, you're arguing that he's nothing to do with the Monsterpocalypse and in the other, he's wrapped up in supernatural stuff? I'm arguing that, as of now, from what the students know, it's looking like he got wrapped into the knife business by pure chance. Quote And either option is a case for Landon and the school to stay apart. If he's really unrelated to the Knife then he's only connection to the supernatural is via Raf, in which case: what I said about communication and the Squib-in-Hogwarts argument. Keeping an eye on someone who knows your secrets is a good enough reason. Landon isn't a Squib, who despite not having powers knows about magic culture through his family. He has no one, and is therefore a great source of information for other people who might want to know about the school. Quote If he is related to the Knife then keeping him away from a school where he might unknowingly trigger more magical catalysts is the safer option. If he is related to the knife then keeping him around could be equally useful in putting an end to the problem. The episode itself confirmed this at the end. Since they don't know either way, erring on the side of fear doesn't hold with the stated egalitarianism of the school. But then, maybe all that was just false advertising on Alaric's part. Edited December 2, 2018 by Diapason Untuned 1 Link to comment
Gwen-Stacys December 2, 2018 Share December 2, 2018 1 minute ago, Diapason Untuned said: Yup, centered on his desire to hurt her. It has nothing to do with any responsiibility he feels towards her feelings, nor are the two equivalent. Butting in on this to say that nothing about Raf's interaction with Lizzie seemed to have malicious intent. It seemed more of a both of them seeking comfort and distraction and they were both just...there. In fact, Raf pushes Lizzie away initially, then passively lets her take his shirt off and then seems to just...go with it (as Lizzie asked him to). Saying anything else until we see next week's fallout seems more like projection than anything else. And since next episode's synopsis seems to hint that Spoiler Lizzie's date ends up being MG and Raf is spending most of the episode being pissy with Hope, one could assume that Raf blows Lizzie off (or lets her know that what happened was a mistake) moreso than he did it to hurt Josie . I still maintain that neither party (Lizzie/Rafael) were thinking. Quote It doesn't not not make him a threat. We can add 'not's' for eternity, but the info they have now, that he's a stooge for the knife, isn't enough to justify geting rid of him, unless you support treating folks differently based on some vague fear that his othing to do with their actions. But you're working off of the assumption that Josie has all the information (re: to the knife) and she doesn't. All she knows is that the knife sat dormant in the school doing nothing until the day Landon stole it and all of these creature crawled out of the abyss of forgotten toys woodwork. The catalyst is Landon. That is a canon fact. Whatever happened, him being in proximity to the knife jump started everything. We also see at the end of the episode that whomever the creatures are bringing the knife to, their symbol is the same as the symbol on the necklace Landon's mother is wearing in the picture he has of her. HE IS CONNECTED. MAGNETO JOSIE IS RIGHT! Quote Keeping an eye on someone who knows your secrets is a good enough reason. Landon isn't a Squib, who despite not having powers knows about magic culture through his family. He has no one, and is therefore a great source of information for other people who might want to know about the school. Why? There are humans that know of the existence of vampires. The Dryad's long lost boyfriend tracks one down to turn him so that he can be with her forever (before the great spell of forgetfulness). Landon has also promised to keep the school a secret, if only for Rafael's sake. So either he's a trustworthy kid, or he's someone with nefarious intentions. He can't be both. 2 Link to comment
Diapason Untuned December 2, 2018 Share December 2, 2018 (edited) 48 minutes ago, Gwen-Stacys said: Butting in on this to say that nothing about Raf's interaction with Lizzie seemed to have malicious intent. It seemed more of a both of them seeking comfort and distraction and they were both just...there. In fact, Raf pushes Lizzie away initially, then passively lets her take his shirt off and then seems to just...go with it (as Lizzie asked him to). Saying anything else until we see next week's fallout seems more like projection than anything else. The situation beforehand makes me very unsure of this. Quote I still maintain that neither party (Lizzie/Rafael) were thinking. That's exactly the problem. Quote But you're working off of the assumption that Josie has all the information (re: to the knife) and she doesn't. All she knows is that the knife sat dormant in the school doing nothing until the day Landon stole it and all of these creature crawled out of the abyss of forgotten toys woodwork. The catalyst is Landon. That is a canon fact. Whatever happened, him being in proximity to the knife jump started everything. Hope's tests (which I hope the council was briefed on before deliberating) proves that to the best of their knowledge, Landon has no powers and was compelled by the knife. They have no way of knowing if Langdon has anything to do with the knife or was just a convenient victim. Josie's decision was based purely off of fear, but rationality. Quote We also see at the end of the episode that whomever the creatures are bringing the knife to, their symbol is the same as the symbol on the necklace Landon's mother is wearing in the picture he has of her. HE IS CONNECTED. MAGNETO JOSIE IS RIGHT Josie knows nothing of the connection, so it can't figure into her reasoning. Even a broken clock is right twice a day, doesn't mean it's not broken. Quote Landon has also promised to keep the school a secret, if only for Rafael's sake. So either he's a trustworthy kid, or he's someone with nefarious intentions. He can't be both. Or he's an inexperienced teenager with no support structure, making him ripe for manipulation by any bad actors out there, regardless of his good intentions. Edited December 2, 2018 by Diapason Untuned 1 Link to comment
ursula December 2, 2018 Share December 2, 2018 58 minutes ago, Gwen-Stacys said: Saying anything else until we see next week's fallout seems more like projection than anything else. Well said. 1 hour ago, Gwen-Stacys said: The catalyst is Landon. That is a canon fact. The way I see, it's not a question of if Landon is the catalyst - that's a foregone conclusion, it's a question of whether he's an innocent pawn in all this, genuinely unaware of whatever within him triggered these events ---- or he's the Mastermind. 1 hour ago, Gwen-Stacys said: So either he's a trustworthy kid, or he's someone with nefarious intentions. He can't be both. My point exactly. If he's trustworthy, he'll keep the school secrets. If he's not (in the sense of not being a good secret keeper as opposed to Big Bad), then unless they plan to lock him in a dungeon for the rest of his life, they're already in trouble. Him being in the school won't stop him from exposing them and, they can't keep him there forever. Link to comment
Gwen-Stacys December 2, 2018 Share December 2, 2018 2 hours ago, Diapason Untuned said: Hope's tests (which I hope the council was briefed on before deliberating) proves that to the best of their knowledge, Landon has no powers and was compelled by the knife. They have no way of knowing if Langdon has anything to do with the knife or was just a convenient victim. Josie's decision was based purely off of fear, but rationality. No, Hope's tests were inconclusive. The fact that he can't be compelled is fishy enough, tacked onto the fact that he has no magical ancestry in his lineage which Emma mentions being both strange and improbable. It's almost as if Landon is another creature they know nothing about (Julie Plec already stated this as fact) and therefore don't have the knowledge to test him. If this is true (it is), then Josie's point still stands. They don't know what Landon is, and if they don't know what he is then how do they know he isn't dangerous. 1 Link to comment
ursula December 2, 2018 Share December 2, 2018 9 hours ago, Gwen-Stacys said: They don't know what Landon is, and if they don't know what he is then how do they know he isn't dangerous. More specifically, I think, is not knowing how he's dangerous. It's a school for dangerous kids but they're all dangerous in known ways: vampires, witches (incld siphons), wolves and Hope's tribidness. Without knowing Raf's powers and their limits, they can't control for him. They can't protect the rest of the student body from him since they don't know what to protect for. Link to comment
Lady Calypso December 2, 2018 Share December 2, 2018 I do think it makes sense for Landon to not be very welcome at the school, in a sense. Alaric HAS made it clear that all students MUST be supernatural of some kind (apparently that doesn't go for the teachers since Alaric and Dorian are completely human) and that was expressed to Landon in the pilot, before the whole knife situation, which is why he was getting compelled to leave. Once Alaric found out that Landon couldn't be compelled, he thought it was due to him lying about something. I also get Hope not wanting anything to do with Landon right up until the end of this episode. She has a crush on him and thought that he was betraying her. It also makes sense for the rest of the student body to not want Landon around this episode. Him and Rafael showing up and then new supernatural creatures appearing is sketchy. But, to their knowledge, it's because of Landon, since Rafael is a werewolf and Landon is unknown (but seemingly human, something that the students were taught were different from them). My bigger issue is how cold Alaric's been about his new students. He seems pretentious to continue the divide within the school. Of course, it's only been a week in show time so the reaction does make sense, somewhat. But wasn't the school made to protect supernatural creatures? Yes, witches, werewolves, vampires, and Hope are the only for sure well known supernaturals (the only ones carried over from TVD, specifically) but Alaric has also created a divide between the supernatural and the humans. By rejecting someone like Landon so viciously, it may protect the school but it also isolates the school from the outside world. That barrier is being broken down by new supernatural creatures, but these students are simply not prepared. They were taught to be defensive, like Hope said a few episodes back. So I don't really blame the students for their reaction. I do blame Alaric, however. I understand Landon is an unknown, but Alaric's been so cold to Landon and treating him like a reject since the pilot. Even with the knife being connected to Landon, I get that Alaric would rather have the kid gone so that things could possibly go back to normal, but does Alaric not realize that Landon could be taking the danger with him, leaving other places vulnerable? Not knowing who or what Landon is doesn't help the situation with the knife. I get the first thing is separating Landon from the knife so that the problem is solved, but for how long? And when a young kid, probably no more than seventeen, is coming to you and begging you for a home, how cold must you be to turn him away and not give him some help? Hope was the only one to help him, mostly out of her conflicting feelings toward him. So I think that's what my issue has been and also what has helped me sympathize with Landon a bit more, even if I don't find the actor that strong. I get both sides, and we have more information than the characters do, in that Landon doesn't know what he is and that he is SOMETHING that is connected directly to the knife and that these aren't his choices, but Alaric has decades of experience at this point. He's been a teacher for so long and has cared for children for so long that he shouldn't be fumbling as much as he is. 3 Link to comment
RachelKM December 3, 2018 Share December 3, 2018 22 hours ago, Diapason Untuned said: I'm centering Raf's sexual choices on his desire to get back at Josie. Unless he can be sure that he's not doing it for that purpose, he shouldn't do anything with Lizzie. It's the "with Lizzie" part where I think Raf's actions run afoul, imo Even if he didn't seek out Lizzie or intend to use her as a weapon against Josie, the choice to have sex with Lizzie is not neutral. Raf is not responsible for Josie's feelings, particularly in light of the fact that she's been sending him mixed signals. Granted, I think the mixed signals are due to Lizzie having called "dibs" on Raf, but that still not his fault. And as long as he and Josie are not actually dating, he can sleep with anyone he wants for any reason or no reason... except Lizzie (and maybe Penelope). I wouldn't have an issue with it if Raf was actually interested in Lizzie, just like it would be fine if he dated Josie despite Lizzie's feelings. He seems(ed) genuinely interested in Josie and how the sisters navigate that is their business. But choosing to have sex with Lizzie for no more than a release is not cool. If he has any awareness of Josie's feelings, screwing her twin for no reason other than to do it is bullshit. And I can't imagine there wasn't some degree of Fuck U to Josie in his choice. He'd have to be an idiot not to know it would hurt her. As for the rest of the episode, I pretty much liked it. I agree with others that Ric and Dorian's constant use of the term "monster" to the Dryad sounded both ignorant and shitty. But otherwise, I found that story interesting and we got some significant movement on the season arc front. And I loved Penelope's smack down of Lizzie about the way she treats Josie. Lizzie is brat and an attention suck with no sense of awareness of others. And while Josie isn't 100% blameless in their dynamic, the show has gone to significant lengths in the few episodes to date to show us that Lizzie is extremely volatile. Josie seems to spend a lot of her energy trying to ensure her sister isn't upset. 2 Link to comment
ElectricBoogaloo December 3, 2018 Author Share December 3, 2018 The tests Hope administered only proved that Landon doesn't have the supernatural powers normally attributed to werewolves, vampires, and witches. But that doesn't mean he isn't supernatural. As Emma pointed out, even humans have trace elements of magic in their blood due to random ancestors, so Landon having absolutely no magic show up in his blood test seems suspicious. The fact that so far the only creatures who have wanted the knife are supernatural fairy tale creatures (the dragon and the dryad) seems to indicate that Landon is something supernatural too since none of the known supernatural creatures at the school (werewolves, vampires, and witches) triggered the "YOU MUST TAKE ME" urge from the knife any time in the past however many years that it's been at the school. The knife has probably been dormant because there haven't been any fairy tale creatures close enough to trigger it until Landon was at the Salvatore School. I've found Alaric's KILL ALL SUPERNATURAL BEINGS EXCEPT THE ONES I KNOW to be very BtVS-esque. The assumption is that all these supernatural beings are bad and evil and out to kill everyone and destroy the world as we know it - except for the murderous ones we know who we like and drink with and got to know on at least a minimal personal level at some point. I'm glad Dorian at least looked regretful after shooting the dryad. I just wish he'd had time to ask her more questions before she died. What other creatures existed with you before you were in the dark pit? Which ones are peaceful and which ones are violent? What has your previous interaction with humans been like that led you to believe humans lie? 7 Link to comment
Josie means Love December 3, 2018 Share December 3, 2018 (edited) On 12/2/2018 at 12:25 AM, Check Sanity said: How is trying to look out for Landon (his brother) being selfish? His response to Lizzie's date request was to ask if she was blackmailing him. Despite the fact that that was essentially what she was doing, he folded because he thought he needed to so for Landon. He didn't even hear what Josie said. She was doing this to protect her family, because the moment Landon stole that knife, the monsters began to look for it and what followed was: - Alaric could've been fried by the Dragon; - Lizzie was hurt and nearly killed by the Gargoyle; - Alaric jumped in front of the Gargoyle to save Hope and he could've died if he wasn't human (i.e. if the Gargoyle didn't want to "protect him"); - Josie and Rafael himself would've been killed by the Arachne if it wasn't for Landon (which is kinda odd though) and later Hope. Josie wanted to protect not only her family, but Raf and Landon too, that's why she voted for Landon to leave. She thought that sending Landon away would stop the creatures from coming to the school and threatening it's inhabitants, but it won't and Landon will be back at some point, this time for good. I'm guessing episode 7, because next episode will be mainly focused on the Saltzman family. Edited December 3, 2018 by Josie means Love Link to comment
Diapason Untuned December 3, 2018 Share December 3, 2018 22 hours ago, ursula said: More specifically, I think, is not knowing how he's dangerous. It's a school for dangerous kids but they're all dangerous in known ways: vampires, witches (incld siphons), wolves and Hope's tribidness. Without knowing Raf's powers and their limits, they can't control for him. They can't protect the rest of the student body from him since they don't know what to protect for. ...So basically, they're getting rid of Landon because he doesn't fit into a neat box they can control. Yeah, that sounds about right. What ever happened to helping supernatural kids who needed help just because? 3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said: I've found Alaric's KILL ALL SUPERNATURAL BEINGS EXCEPT THE ONES I KNOW to be very BtVS-esque. The assumption is that all these supernatural beings are bad and evil and out to kill everyone and destroy the world as we know it - except for the murderous ones we know who we like and drink with and got to know on at least a minimal personal level at some point. I'm glad Dorian at least looked regretful after shooting the dryad. I just wish he'd had time to ask her more questions before she died. What other creatures existed with you before you were in the dark pit? Which ones are peaceful and which ones are violent? What has your previous interaction with humans been like that led you to believe humans lie? They had plenty of time to ask the dryad about all of that stuff, They simply didn't care, because she wasn't a vampire, werewolf or a witch. That makes me wonder why they weren't subject to the forgetting. Because they can 'pass' as humans? In which case, how problematic is that? 17 minutes ago, Josie means Love said: He didn't even hear what Josie said. She was doing this to protect her family, because the moment Landon stole that knife, the monsters began to look for it and what followed was: - Alaric could've been fried by the Dragon; - Lizzie was hurt and nearly killed by the Gargoyle; - Alaric jumped in front of the Gargoyle to save Hope and he could've died if he wasn't human (i.e. if the Gargoyle didn't want to "protect him"); - Josie and Rafael himself would've been killed by the Arachne if it wasn't for Landon (which is kinda odd though) and later Hope. They're still keeping the knife. So the danger to her family hasn't decreased. She's simply preventing some hypothetical danger that Landon might cause, which is a bad reason for getting rid of someone you should be helping. Quote Josie wanted to protect not only her family, but Raf and Landon too, that's why she voted for Landon to leave. Let's not pretend Josie was thinking of anyone but her family when she voted. 1 Link to comment
ursula December 3, 2018 Share December 3, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Josie means Love said: She thought that sending Landon away would stop the creatures from coming to the school and threatening it's inhabitants, but it won't and Landon will be back at some point, this time for good. I'm guessing episode 7, because next episode will be mainly focused on the Saltzman family. That's not why Josie sent him away because the students already know that the monsters are after the knife. She sent him away because she doesn't know - nobody knows - what Landon is, and what other magical disaster he will knowingly or unknowingly trigger. And given the choice between protecting her family and the school ---- or basically giving Landon a bed (because again, he has no known powers, the school has nothing to teach him outside the standard US high school curriculum, until his powers are identified, he's essentially a Squib in Hogwarts) so that he can be close to his big brother, Josie chose the decision that had the most pragmatic sense. It's also worth pointing out that ---- Raf doesn't have to stay in the school, either. His admission there is entirely voluntary. So if he feels that strongly about being with his brother for the rest of their lives, he can leave.... or he can do what every other non-supernatural teenager who goes to a different school from their siblings and: call, email, spend holidays together and wait out the 2-3 years until graduation. Edited December 3, 2018 by ursula 2 Link to comment
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