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S04.E03: The False Bride

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Jamie and Claire search for a place to call home; meanwhile, in the 20th century, Brianna and Roger's romance heats up and then fizzles during a road trip that winds up highlighting their differences.

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I know that Jocasta means well, but I was rolling my eyes when she told Claire she was holding Jamie back from being a laird. Maybe Jamie likes being a printer. Or maybe he doesn't want the responsibility of running a farm. Or maybe, LIKE HE TOLD YOU, he isn't comfortable owning slaves. But it was just Jocasta's entire mindset about how being a landowner was his birthright while having a job was beneath him.

If Roger thinks that Dairy Queen fries are delicious, I would love to take him on a culinary tour so he can try lots of fries!

Ugh, Brianna. Kissing someone like that while he's driving a car is reckless and dangerous. I'm sure I'm supposed to think it's impulsive and free spirited and adorable, but I don't.

There were some beautiful scenery shots in this episode.

How old is Ian supposed to be now? As he pointed out to Jamie, he's older than Jamie was when he went to France so it's about time Jamie stopped treating him like a child. If he wants to stay, he should be allowed to stay. When he left with Myers, I was sure Ian would get into some kind of trouble (regardless of whether it was his fault or not) because duh, it's Outlander so someone is always in peril, but even so it should be his choice. Based on how much trouble Jamie and Claire have gotten into, maybe it's better that Ian isn't traveling with them.

When Claire ran off after the mule, I was just waiting for her to get attacked or kidnapped. I swear that I'm not always paranoid, but given what we know of this show, it's always just a matter of time.

Why do shows think that if someone spins, I need to see it in slow motion? Because I DO NOT.

On the one hand, I have no interest in the Brianna and Roger love story. On the other hand, at least it's not Claire and Jamie in peril again.

I liked Roger last season (or at least I don't remember hating him) but good lord. He has written and called Brianna a few times since last summer and then he proposes to her within a day of his flight landing? I'm with Brianna on this - NO. As for his "we can be engaged as long as you want but I just want you to say yes," GTFO. How about we can date as long as you like until you feel we have gotten to know each other well enough to get engaged and commit to spending our lives together? THIS GUY. Seriously, slow your fucking roll. His all or nothing attitude is shit. Either you marry me or we have no relationship? Okay, BYE.

Claire, when you find a skull on the ground, that doesn't mean you have to pick it up and carry it around!

Edited by ElectricBoogaloo · Reason: Typo
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Briana's never been my favorite character, but yeah, I was totally on her side. An international long-distance relationship where you've only seen each other several times in two years is hardly solid ground for a marriage. Roger's character certainly took a dark turn when he didn't get his way, so Briana's hesitation was well warranted.

If I'm not mistaken, Ian is around 17. 

I'm glad Fiona got the Reverand's house. She seems like the type of person who would cherish and take immaculate care of the place.

I'm dying to know whose skull Claire found in the mud.

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16 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I know that Jocasta means well, but I was rolling my eyes when she told Claire she was holding Jamie back from being a laird. Maybe Jamie likes being a printer. Or maybe he doesn't want the responsibility of running a farm. Or maybe, LIKE HE TOLD YOU, he isn't comfortable owning slaves. But it was just Jocasta's entire mindset about how being a landowner was his birthright while having a job was beneath him.

If Roger thinks that Dairy Queen fries are delicious, I would love to take him on a culinary so he can try lots of fries!

Ugh, Brianna. Kissing someone like that while he's driving a car is reckless and dangerous. I'm sure I'm supposed to think it's impulsive and free spirited and adorable, but I don't.

There were some beautiful scenery shots in this episode.

How old is Ian supposed to be now? As he pointed out to Jamie, he's older than Jamie was when he went to France so it's about time Jamie stopped treating him like a child. If he wants to stay, he should be allowed to stay. When he left with Myers, I was sure Ian would get into some kind of trouble (regardless of whether it was his fault or not) because duh, it's Outlander so someone is always in peril, but even so it should be his choice. Based on how much trouble Jamie and Claire have gotten into, maybe it's better than Ian isn't traveling with them.

When Claire ran off after the mule, I was just waiting for her to get attacked or kidnapped. I swear that I'm not always paranoid, but given what we know of this show, it's always just a matter of time.

Why do shows think that if someone spins, I need to see it in slow motion? Because I DO NOT.

On the one hand, I have no interest in the Brianna and Roger love story. On the other hand, at least it's not Claire and Jamie in peril again.

I liked Roger last season (or at least I don't remember hating him) but good lord. He has written and called Brianna a few times since last summer and then he proposes to her within a day of his flight landing? I'm with Brianna on this - NO. As for his "we can be engaged as long as you want but I just want you to say yes," GTFO. How about we can date as long as you like until you feel we have gotten to know each other well enough to get engaged and commit to spending our lives together? THIS GUY. Seriously, slow your fucking roll. His all or nothing attitude is shit. Either you marry me or we have no relationship? Okay, BYE.

Claire, when you find a skull on the ground, that doesn't mean you have to pick it up and carry it around!

As soon as Claire ran off my hubby & I looked at each & said “shit, what’s going to happen to her this week? “ 

Also loved that scenery- is it actually North Carolina? 

 

Wth- Roger?

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I loved all the episodes where they go back & forth in the 2 eras ( 213, 301,302,303,304), so I liked that a lot. Especially Roger & Bri driving down the same road as Jamie & Claire. 

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I have been thinking about the parallels of the younger couple to the older one- are they trying to mirror that? Roger obviously taken with Bri from the first time he saw her, & now with his old fashioned attitude compared to Bri's modern woman.  I have liked their cute little snippets of a budding romance & I thought this episode's fight was well-acted, but they certainly haven't duplicated the chemistry of Jamie & Claire (of course no one else  in the history of TV has done that )!

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Edited by Cdh20

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On 11/18/2018 at 7:21 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

On the one hand, I have no interest in the Brianna and Roger love story. On the other hand, at least it's not Claire and Jamie in peril again.

I liked Roger last season (or at least I don't remember hating him) but good lord. He has written and called Brianna a few times since last summer and then he proposes to her within a day of his flight landing? I'm with Brianna on this - NO. As for his "we can be engaged as long as you want but I just want you to say yes," GTFO. How about we can date as long as you like until you feel we have gotten to know each other well enough to get engaged and commit to spending our lives together? THIS GUY. Seriously, slow your fucking roll. His all or nothing attitude is shit. Either you marry me or we have no relationship? Okay, BYE.

Claire, when you find a skull on the ground, that doesn't mean you have to pick it up and carry it around!

 

When Claire and Jamie aren't in immediately peril, she's just happening to flop down next to a skull and an opal and that skull happens to belong to another time traveler.  I'm guessing is going to be a way for various people to commute between eras in time without those pesky trips all the way to Inverness.   Really stupid plot line.   I thought Claire might treat the skull with respect after the guy went to all the trouble of showing up to her as a spirit, but no.  She leaves it laying there on the ground for a while, picks at it off and on, and totes it around with her in her sack.

I agree with your comments (and those of others) about the Roger-Brianne relationship.  It's strange for several reasons.  I can't help thinking that the two of them are related, though separated by a number of generations.   The actress who plays Brianne is also TERRIBLE.  

Edited by terrymct · Reason: fixed a typo
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28 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

No. It's Scotland that supposed to be North Carolina. All filming is in Scotland.

I knew they were filming in Scotland- I wondered if the backdrop was actually there though, since they have been green screening in some scenery? Anyway that view was incredible!

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Well, we don't know what his original plan was -- go all the way back to Boston? Leave from an airport closer to North Carolina? I'm sure he could've hitched a ride with someone from the festival since he was an invited performer/guest. 

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28 minutes ago, Nidratime said:

Well, we don't know what his original plan was -- go all the way back to Boston? Leave from an airport closer to North Carolina? I'm sure he could've hitched a ride with someone from the festival since he was an invited performer/guest. 

I was of course just joking-he deserved to be left! 

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2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

No. It's Scotland that supposed to be North Carolina. All filming is in Scotland.

With some cheap looking CGI thrown in.

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3 hours ago, terrymct said:

With some cheap looking CGI thrown in.

Seriously, why is the CGI so bad? It's really obvious when the scene switches from on-location to studio backdrop. They can't seem to get the lighting right on Jamie and Claire. I hope the showrunners don't think we're just a bunch of Harlequin Romance junkies who could care less about production value so long as Jamie's naked in half the episodes. I can't believe that's the best they can do. 

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Didn't Roger tell someone that Brianna is studying engineering at MIT? So why on earth would he expect her to give that up to marry him right away and have lots of babies? You don't get an engineering degree just for the fun of it. She's obviously career-minded.

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3 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Seriously, why is the CGI so bad? It's really obvious when the scene switches from on-location to studio backdrop. They can't seem to get the lighting right on Jamie and Claire. I hope the showrunners don't think we're just a bunch of Harlequin Romance junkies who could care less about production value so long as Jamie's naked in half the episodes. I can't believe that's the best they can do. 

Come on when Jamie is 1/2 naked we don't notice if there is green screen, LOL

59 minutes ago, Lily H said:

Didn't Roger tell someone that Brianna is studying engineering at MIT? So why on earth would he expect her to give that up to marry him right away and have lots of babies? You don't get an engineering degree just for the fun of it. She's obviously career-minded.

I think we are meant to see that in that time it was still rare for women to have careers over families. Things have changed a lot in 50 years.

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I did think that Jocasta gave Claire a reason to start that conversation with Jamie about what he wants to do with his life! We often see her as more selfish about what she needs to do to be happy but  really as long as he has Claire  by his side he is happy! 

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Claire, when you find a skull on the ground, that doesn't mean you have to pick it up and carry it around!

But she DOES! That's our Claire! ;-)

One of the things I am loving this season is how Jamie and Claire are both mature enough to talk about what they need in their relationship, and to ask each other the hard questions: are you doing this for me? What do you really want to do? It's an adult relationship, and they are clearly in it for the long haul (as if Claire traveling back 200 years didn't prove that...)

And Geez, clearly feminism has not reached the Highlands in 1970! Roger, your great-great-great-great uncle treats women better than you do! And hey, Roger slept with other women BECAUSE he didn't love them! He has to wait to have sex with Brianna until they are engaged...I'm judging Roger by 21st century standards, but for 1970, he's already beginning to fall a bit behind.

And when Brianna was setting HER boundaries she was very like Claire, and I assume as a woman at MIT in 1970, she's probably one of the only women in her class *\(like Claire in med school.) She's definitely Claire's daughter.

Jocasta is absolutely true to her high-born roots, to the disgusted sound she makes at the thought of Jamie as a printer. And while she blames Claire for him walking away from the estate, she really seems to think that Jamie could get used to "our ways" (slavery). 

I think it's interesting that Claire tells Jamie she'd prefer not to go back to Boston, both because she's been there AND because revolution is fomenting there. Certainly they'd need a printer of seditious materials!

But Jamie clearly loves the mountains; and 200 years later, all the Scots who found them are still evident in the festivals and their descendents.

Edited by kwnyc · Reason: HIghlands, not highlights!
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24 minutes ago, kwnyc said:

But she DOES! That's our Claire! ;-)

One of the things I am loving this season is how Jamie and Claire are both mature enough to talk about what they need in their relationship, and to ask each other the hard questions: are you doing this for me? What do you really want to do? It's an adult relationship, and they are clearly in it for the long haul (as if Claire traveling back 200 years didn't prove that...)

And Geez, clearly feminism has not reached the Highlands in 1970! Roger, your great-great-great-great uncle treats women better than you do! And hey, Roger slept with other women BECAUSE he didn't love them! He has to wait to have sex with Brianna until they are engaged...I'm judging Roger by 21st century standards, but for 1970, he's already beginning to fall a bit behind.

And when Brianna was setting HER boundaries she was very like Claire, and I assume as a woman at MIT in 1970, she's probably one of the only women in her class *\(like Claire in med school.) She's definitely Claire's daughter.

Jocasta is absolutely true to her high-born roots, to the disgusted sound she makes at the thought of Jamie as a printer. And while she blames Claire for him walking away from the estate, she really seems to think that Jamie could get used to "our ways" (slavery). 

I think it's interesting that Claire tells Jamie she'd prefer not to go back to Boston, both because she's been there AND because revolution is fomenting there. Certainly they'd need a printer of seditious materials!

But Jamie clearly loves the mountains; and 200 years later, all the Scots who found them are still evident in the festivals and their descendents.

 

I thought Claire didn't want to go to Boston, because it would remind her of being married to Frank, & leaving Brianna (unhappy memories)?

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I think it's interesting that Claire tells Jamie she'd prefer not to go back to Boston, both because she's been there AND because revolution is fomenting there. Certainly they'd need a printer of seditious materials!

Hey! That's his specialty!

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3 hours ago, kwnyc said:

But she DOES! That's our Claire! ;-)

One of the things I am loving this season is how Jamie and Claire are both mature enough to talk about what they need in their relationship, and to ask each other the hard questions: are you doing this for me? What do you really want to do? It's an adult relationship, and they are clearly in it for the long haul (as if Claire traveling back 200 years didn't prove that...)

And Geez, clearly feminism has not reached the Highlands in 1970! Roger, your great-great-great-great uncle treats women better than you do! And hey, Roger slept with other women BECAUSE he didn't love them! He has to wait to have sex with Brianna until they are engaged...I'm judging Roger by 21st century standards, but for 1970, he's already beginning to fall a bit behind.

And when Brianna was setting HER boundaries she was very like Claire, and I assume as a woman at MIT in 1970, she's probably one of the only women in her class *\(like Claire in med school.) She's definitely Claire's daughter.

Jocasta is absolutely true to her high-born roots, to the disgusted sound she makes at the thought of Jamie as a printer. And while she blames Claire for him walking away from the estate, she really seems to think that Jamie could get used to "our ways" (slavery). 

I think it's interesting that Claire tells Jamie she'd prefer not to go back to Boston, both because she's been there AND because revolution is fomenting there. Certainly they'd need a printer of seditious materials!

But Jamie clearly loves the mountains; and 200 years later, all the Scots who found them are still evident in the festivals and their descendents.

Woman still couldn't get their own Credit Cards in 1970. 

I finally got around to watching the ep.

I didn't find Roger out of line nor did I find Brianna's refusal of the proposal out of line. I just saw two people at different places in their lives that's all. Different views -- different goals. No one was wrong. No one was right. 

The ghost shoes/skull thing was weird. What does it mean? anything? So there are other time travelers? Wait! What? How? I need to know more!

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Critical Care Nurse here chiming in:

Claire keeping the skull makes sense when you consider her medical background.  She could use it as a teaching tool on anatomy to someone who might assist her in some kind of medical procedure on the head or face.  Many doctors have skeletons (or certain bones) in their offices  for that reason.

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With their only attempt to free all the slaves over 100 years early thwarted, Claire and Jamie leave the only secure shelter they have to wreak havoc in the west. It seems like it's been quite a while that we've been in one place and got to know everyone. 

I believe that Claire does believe that she just 'wants to make a home', but I mean come on. She can't sit still for 5 minutes. 

I guess it was nice to see 1970. So what, they went to Scot Burning Man in North Carolina? 

I still find it odd Claire hasn't thought to leave a message for the future somehow. 

I did have a good laugh when me and Brianna basically said "that doesn't make any sense" at the same time though. I thought Roger was going to back off, but yeesh dude. As the 70s said, know when to fold them. 

I certainly hope the ghost/skull whatever is a sign there's traveling stones in the Americas. 

You would think Claire and Jamie would have some emergency plan by now if they got separated. "head north to the biggest tree, mark your path", or "find the nearest river/stream". 

Edited by ganesh
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Honestly, I don't know how you could see the way that Roger reacts to rejection and ever marry him, so I really hope to God that she doesn't. Gross. It's been a long time since I've been so quickly turned off by something a character did. I used to like him, but now he seems like a "nice" guy. No thanks. 

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On ‎11‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 7:21 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

How old is Ian supposed to be now? As he pointed out to Jamie, he's older than Jamie was when he went to France so it's about time Jamie stopped treating him like a child. If he wants to stay, he should be allowed to stay. When he left with Myers, I was sure Ian would get into some kind of trouble (regardless of whether it was his fault or not) because duh, it's Outlander so someone is always in peril, but even so it should be his choice. Based on how much trouble Jamie and Claire have gotten into, maybe it's better that Ian isn't traveling with them.

When Claire ran off after the mule, I was just waiting for her to get attacked or kidnapped. I swear that I'm not always paranoid, but given what we know of this show, it's always just a matter of time.

I liked Roger last season (or at least I don't remember hating him) but good lord. He has written and called Brianna a few times since last summer and then he proposes to her within a day of his flight landing? I'm with Brianna on this - NO. As for his "we can be engaged as long as you want but I just want you to say yes," GTFO. How about we can date as long as you like until you feel we have gotten to know each other well enough to get engaged and commit to spending our lives together? THIS GUY. Seriously, slow your fucking roll. His all or nothing attitude is shit. Either you marry me or we have no relationship? Okay, BYE.

Claire, when you find a skull on the ground, that doesn't mean you have to pick it up and carry it around! 

 

I think Ian is meant to be 19.  Wasn't Jamie 18-19 when he and Jenny were attacked by BJR? Then, 4-5 years later he had gone to France and was on his way home with Dougal when they found Claire.  I'm too lazy to find the link, but I believe it was discussed in this forum in Season 1.

I was expecting Claire to be kidnapped, so I'm glad it didn't happen,

I like that Roger was a jerk on the marriage issue.  It adds layers to the character instead of him being the perfect guy.

I laughed out loud about your comment on the skull.  I was thinking that only Claire would take a skull with her, instead of screaming at the sight of it.  (Not meant to be sexist. I think that anyone who found themselves curled up with a human skull would run away screaming.)  I thought it was horribly disrespectful that she didn't leave the bones alone, but I do think it's cool that there is another time traveler out there.  What if it's Roger? We know he has the blood of a time traveler...

 

On ‎11‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 9:11 PM, BitterApple said:

Briana's never been my favorite character, but yeah, I was totally on her side. An international long-distance relationship where you've only seen each other several times in two years is hardly solid ground for a marriage. Roger's character certainly took a dark turn when he didn't get his way, so Briana's hesitation was well warranted.

I'm glad Fiona got the Reverand's house. She seems like the type of person who would cherish and take immaculate care of the place.

I'm dying to know whose skull Claire found in the mud.

I wonder if we will see Roger turn into a bad guy...

I am glad Fiona got married and has the house, though I'm sad to see it leave the family.  IIRC, Briana was a little snide about her having a crush on Roger, so I'm glad she is happy.

I hope we will learn about the skull this season.  BTW, did Claire make the connection between Geillis and the skull that Joe mentioned?

 

On ‎11‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 9:05 AM, Cdh20 said:

I knew they were filming in Scotland- I wondered if the backdrop was actually there though, since they have been green screening in some scenery? Anyway that view was incredible!

North Carolina also has some similarly gorgeous views..

On ‎11‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 4:54 PM, Lily H said:

Didn't Roger tell someone that Brianna is studying engineering at MIT? So why on earth would he expect her to give that up to marry him right away and have lots of babies? You don't get an engineering degree just for the fun of it. She's obviously career-minded.

A lot of women went to college but abandoned their studies when they found a husband.  Also, as Claire mentioned, Briana was unsure about what to study.  Perhaps he assumed she would gladly give up college for married life.

 

On ‎11‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 10:32 AM, kwnyc said:

And when Brianna was setting HER boundaries she was very like Claire, and I assume as a woman at MIT in 1970, she's probably one of the only women in her class *\(like Claire in med school.) She's definitely Claire's daughter.

Jocasta is absolutely true to her high-born roots, to the disgusted sound she makes at the thought of Jamie as a printer. And while she blames Claire for him walking away from the estate, she really seems to think that Jamie could get used to "our ways" (slavery). 

But Jamie clearly loves the mountains; and 200 years later, all the Scots who found them are still evident in the festivals and their descendents.

I do like that Briana is growing up from the whiny girl she was and is setting her boundaries.  I would be nice to hear more about her experience as one of the few women at MIT.

I think that it's natural that she would assume Jamie would prefer the life as lord of the plantation.  Slavery or not, I think most people would choose a life of luxury over life in the wilderness.  Also, being a laird makes you responsible for the entire ecosystem on your land, so I actually think it's disappointing that they did not stay at River Run.  Yes, they would be forced to be slave owners, but they could have found a way to make the lives of the slaves and little less awful-- less brutal daily treatment, stopping rapes, etc.--even if they could not easily free the slaves.  I feel like Claire and Jamie put their own needs of how they want to perceive themselves above a real opportunity to help the slaves.  I think this is especially true of Claire, who is very black and while.  Jamie is typically more practical and nuanced in his thinking, so I am surprised and disappointed that he didn't try to stay. 

I was in Asheville, NC a little while back and saw some ads for a highland games type event.  Unfortunately, I was not there at the right time for them.  Sounds fun! (But I would skip the haggis-eating contest...)

 

On ‎11‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 10:32 PM, ganesh said:

With their only attempt to free all the slaves over 100 years early thwarted, Claire and Jamie leave the only secure shelter they have to wreak havoc in the west. It seems like it's been quite a while that we've been in one place and got to know everyone. 

I believe that Claire does believe that she just 'wants to make a home', but I mean come on. She can't sit still for 5 minutes. 

I still find it odd Claire hasn't thought to leave a message for the future somehow. 

You would think Claire and Jamie would have some emergency plan by now if they got separated. "head north to the biggest tree, mark your path", or "find the nearest river/stream". 

I was hoping that RiverRun would be the new Castle Leoch and we'd be there for a few episodes, at least.  I miss the days of Hamish and Mrs. Fitz and seeing the everyday life without always being horrified.

I think it's interesting that in the opening scene of the series, Claire looked at a vase and wanted to make a home for herself (and Frank) but never seemed to be able to do that.  I believe she asks herself what would have happened if she had just created a home for that vase...

Planning is not Claire or Jamie's strength!  Maybe the series would be boring if it were, but it does seem that they never learn from their experiences.

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2 hours ago, nara said:

BTW, did Claire make the connection between Geillis and the skull that Joe mentioned?

Yes, in the cave right before Claire stabbed her or whatever, they did a flashback/forward from Claire's pov where she put it together. 

I was very disappointed because I was hoping there would be some time battle or something over Brianna. 

With Claire making the decision to live out her life in the past, I'm hoping there's more to Brianna than the show being like, "hey, let's see what's going on in 1970 for a little while."

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 Quote from Nara:

North Carolina also has some similarly gorgeous views.

Just yesterday I had a client tell me she just got back from a trip there & how beautiful it was! I thought that scenery at Fraser's Ridge was stunning! And nice to see you here as you always have interesting takes on the show.

And on another note-I'd run screaming from the skull, but I laughed when Claire put it in her purse- that was so Claire!

And Ian should be 17 if it's been about a year since Claire went back.

Edited by Cdh20 · Reason: Putting in extra thoughts
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I remember that Claire packed some more modern clothes, etc. when she was planning to go back through the stones, but I don’t remember boots with zippers.  

I never can tell when it’s real or CGI.  Loved the path/view taken by the two couples 200 years apart.

Roger said the engagement could be as long as Brianna liked, so she could have finished her degree at MIT and then got married.  I didn’t think he was that awful, considering it’s the 1970s, but they are clearly at different stages of their lives.  Not sure of the age difference, but he’s several years older than Brianna.

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15 minutes ago, zoey1996 said:

I remember that Claire packed some more modern clothes, etc. when she was planning to go back through the stones, but I don’t remember boots with zippers.  

I never can tell when it’s real or CGI.  Loved the path/view taken by the two couples 200 years apart.

Roger said the engagement could be as long as Brianna liked, so she could have finished her degree at MIT and then got married.  I didn’t think he was that awful, considering it’s the 1970s, but they are clearly at different stages of their lives.  Not sure of the age difference, but he’s several years older than Brianna.

 I must go back & look at the boots Claire wore when she stepped out of the coach in Edinburgh in epi 305.

I think Roger is about  8 years older than Brianna.

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On 11/23/2018 at 12:33 PM, nara said:

I think that it's natural that she would assume Jamie would prefer the life as lord of the plantation.  Slavery or not, I think most people would choose a life of luxury over life in the wilderness.  Also, being a laird makes you responsible for the entire ecosystem on your land, so I actually think it's disappointing that they did not stay at River Run.  Yes, they would be forced to be slave owners, but they could have found a way to make the lives of the slaves and little less awful-- less brutal daily treatment, stopping rapes, etc.--even if they could not easily free the slaves.  I feel like Claire and Jamie put their own needs of how they want to perceive themselves above a real opportunity to help the slaves.  I think this is especially true of Claire, who is very black and while.  Jamie is typically more practical and nuanced in his thinking, so I am surprised and disappointed that he didn't try to stay. 

 

Right.  Jocasta's thinking is perfectly natural for someone born to believe her place is to lord it over others all the while thinking herself as a benevolent and kind task master.  I'm having a hard time keeping a civil tongue in my head after reading this.  "Slavery or not, I think most people would choose a life of luxury over life in the wilderness.”  Jocasta's life of luxury was threatened or damn near destroyed by the time she left Scotland, so her idea of reclaiming her life of luxury was to take steal the land from the people who were already living in the new world and to enslave others stolen from their homelands?  She's a hypocrite and the worst kind of monster.  Jamie and Claire made the correct decision.  They were not going to be forced into anything especially into being slave owners. Your comments are reminiscent of people making excuses to validate their mistreatment of other human beings simply because they don't look or behave like them.  It is a fairy tale that somehow J&C could make being a slave more tolerable to those being held in bondage.  Did you watch the previous episode?  Did you see how helpless they were in trying to save one slave from the "justice" of the white mob intent on teaching all concerned a lesson?  You are surprised Jamie didn't stay at River Run?  I'm amazed that so many of the Europeans who came to the new land were so quick to embrace the bondage, torture and rape of others when many of them had experienced almost the same treatment at the hands of the lords and ladies in their homelands.  They were not slaves, but they weren't too far from it and they were at the mercy of the nobility.  Jamie had experienced being held in bondage, he had endured rape and false imprisonment, not to mention torture.  He would have a very short memory indeed if he wanted to be put in the position to treat other people that way.

20 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

 Quote from Nara:

North Carolina also has some similarly gorgeous views.

 

I live in North Carolina and yes, we have some beautiful landscapes here.  I worry though because I fear the natural beauty in small places will become a distant memory due to all the OVER development.  

Edited by taurusrose
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2 hours ago, taurusrose said:

Right.  Jocasta's thinking is perfectly natural for someone born to believe her place is to lord it over others all the while thinking herself as a benevolent and kind task master.  I'm having a hard time keeping a civil tongue in my head after reading this.  "Slavery or not, I think most people would choose a life of luxury over life in the wilderness.”  Jocasta's life of luxury was threatened or damn near destroyed by the time she left Scotland, so her idea of reclaiming her life of luxury was to take steal the land from the people who were already living in the new world and to enslave others stolen from their homelands?  She's a hypocrite and the worst kind of monster.  Jamie and Claire made the correct decision.  They were not going to be forced into anything especially into being slave owners. Your comments are reminiscent of people making excuses to validate their mistreatment of other human beings simply because they don't look or behave like them.  It is a fairy tale that somehow J&C could make being a slave more tolerable to those being held in bondage.  Did you watch the previous episode?  Did you see how helpless they were in trying to save one slave from the "justice" of the white mob intent on teaching all concerned a lesson?  You are surprised Jamie didn't stay at River Run?  I'm amazed that so many of the Europeans who came to the new land were so quick to embrace the bondage, torture and rape of others when many of them had experienced almost the same treatment at the hands of the lords and ladies in their homelands.  They were not slaves, but they weren't too far from it and they were at the mercy of the nobility.  Jamie had experienced being held in bondage, he had endured rape and false imprisonment, not to mention torture.  He would have a very short memory indeed if he wanted to be put in the position to treat other people that way.

 

You are entitled to your opinion of me, but I have to disagree with you on the options available to Claire and Jamie.  Claire knows how much longer slavery will last in America.  Making life a little less unbearable for several generations of people would definitely have been worthwhile.

I did watch the previous episode.  Just because they were not able to stop a mob does not mean that they could not do things to improve the daily lives of the slaves.  (I doubt that the mob would come every day to River Run to interfere with how they run the plantation.  They came in response to a perceived attack on a white man for which a punishment was stopped.) Jamie could take over running the plantation and replace the overseer with someone of his own choosing.  We know from Season 2 that he is good at making friends and becoming influential, which over time might have earned River Run a little freedom to operate as they see fit.   Claire's medical skills could heal people injured during work or help pregnant women.  Between the two of them, they might be able to get the workers more food each day, or teach reading and writing, or convert River Run's crops to something less slave-dependent.  Is that as good as being able to free them? Of course, not, but the obstacles to freeing them seem insurmountable (at least, right now). After leaving River Run, they are no longer in a position to help the slaves in ANY way. 

I don't blame Claire and Jamie for not wanting to be involved with slavery.  However, IMO it's a missed opportunity to help the slaves, even in a small way.  Instead, they've chosen to leave and go where the slaves are out of sight, out of mind.  Of course, that might be a result of their futile attempts to prevent Culloden.  Personally, I would rather try to fix things from  inside an institution I despise, rather than simply moving away and burying my head in the sand.  I hope I'm wrong and Jamie and Claire remain aware of the slaves' plight and do things to help them.  Maybe they will become wealthy in a different way and exert influence and pressure on the plantation owners...but I'm not holding my breath.

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51 minutes ago, nara said:

Between the two of them, they might be able to get the workers more food each day, or teach reading and writing, or convert River Run's crops to something less slave-dependent.

Jamie had already suggested making more use of the land on the riverbank to grow rice. 

One of the things I don't get about the show. They did this in Jamaica. The show set up this whole new place and characters with all these things going on, and then they immediately left. Why should I bother being invested in any new characters if they're gone by the end of 50 minutes? 

I know this is based on the books, and I don't care to know anything about them, but I would think there's a lot of drama to be mined from being on the plantation and having your skin crawl about the slaves. But everything is binary with them. There's no nuanced forward thinking. 

Besides. Say they free all the slaves on the plantation. Sure, some might stay and work and get paid, but certainly there would be some who wanted to leave. So some other plantation owner happens upon them on the road. "No, we're not escaped, here's our papers." Sure, and the plantation owner is just going to let them go their merry way. 

55 minutes ago, nara said:

Claire knows how much longer slavery will last in America.

Florida wasn't a state yet, and they could have worked that escape route from Georgia too. 

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I think the problem is any overseers working the plantation would quickly catch on. Word would get around and that would probably bring ten times more trouble to everyone involved. There was a violent mob at their doors because Claire gave Rufus medical care, imagine what would happen if the locals found out they were educating slaves and helping them escape?

For once, I think they did the right thing.

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Subtly not being Claire's strong point. I'm weighing it against getting stuck out in the woods versus a roof over their head. Honestly, they don't seem to know really what they want or what to do there, and they're not getting any younger. 

The obvious solution seems to me to go North to a city. They can both get work without much effort. They're also fooling themselves if they think they're going to while away the rest of their days in a nice cabin in North Carolina's woods. Neither of them can sit still for 5 minutes. 

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On 11/20/2018 at 12:06 PM, taanja said:

Woman still couldn't get their own Credit Cards in 1970. 

Yes, this is true.  And try getting a mortgage loan on your own without a husband. Very tough.

Feminism was still pretty much in it's infancy in the late 60's and early 70's.  When I was in my mid-twenties in the 1970's, working in a bank, I recall some newly engaged female employees being asked (innocently and by all of us co-workers) "Are you going to keep working after you're married?  After you have a baby?". This was not considered weird or unusual to ask.  And this was in "progressive" California (La Jolla).  Things were changing, yes, but it was slow.  Old attitudes still prevailed.

Claire is being portrayed as someone who lived in a very enlightened period of time where women could be anything they desired.  Although Claire, being a doctor, was steps ahead, most women in her time were still the secretaries, clerks, elementary schools teachers, bank tellers, etc.  The men were the bosses & upper level managers.  

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On 11/19/2018 at 6:43 AM, Emkat said:

Jamie and Claire are so damn damp. No way they or their clothes got dry. Gag! 

I keep thinking of what that wet wool smells like. Rollo prob smells better! 😉

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