S01.E04: Hope Is Not the Goal

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

When two local students go missing, Alaric sends Hope, Lizzie, MG, and Landon to Mystic Falls High to investigate. Meanwhile, as Josie helps Rafael  adjust to his new life at the school, his reluctance to follow the wolf pack's rules puts a target on his back. Lastly, an unsettling discovery puts Alaric and Sheriff Donovan at odds with one another.

Promo:

Original air date: 11/15/18

[UNOSEZ]

I'm with Josie let's start the revolution... Kaleb brought up some good points to MG.. Not in love with the vamps before tramps.. But besides that he was a pragmatist... Landon... I think I'm just gonna have to get used to the fact that he's gonna continue to be horrible but be crucial to the story so no escaping him.. Because his hissyfit at the river with hope.. Was a masterclass in whining and guilt-tripping... Lizzie was fun.. Hope was meh

[janeta]

Did this ep seem really poorly edited to anyone else? Seemed very choppy. And wow, way to up the Ick Factor with spiders and bodies dissolving and stuff. -bleurgh-   ;-)

[RachelKM]

I HATE SPIDERS.  HATE!!!!!!!!!  To this day I have never watched the spider scene in Chamber of Secrets and I saw it twice in the theater.  The spider episode of of Doctor Who is still on my DVR because I don't even want to deal with it enough to delete it.  Why the fuck did I watch any of this?  I mean, I still looked away a lot, but I just risked waaaaaayyy more nightmare material than was necessary.  That said, the Hero Strut of a slime covered Hope, Lizzie, and Josie was sort of fun.

DO NOT HURT HOT DORIAN, SHOW! DO NOT!

Still don't care about Landon.  Kaleb is still a creepster douche, but his snark was solid after they found Dana.  So that was fun.  So he's officially more tolerable than Landon.  Low bar, but there it is. 

Can we be done with the Lizzie's endless jealousy of Hope?  It's probably justified, but It's annoying to have it so front and center ever episode.  That ending scene with Ric and the twins was good.  Go Josie. Please be done Lizzie.

I've been trying to decide why I like this show.  I realized that it's the straight cheesiness of the monster.  It reminds me of all my British shows. 

Edited November 16, 2018 by RachelKM

[GaT]

This has turned into a monster of the week show.

[ketose]

I'm hoping for an extended freak of the week format for a while. The Diaries franchise has had problems with season long story lines. I'm no sure what they're going to do with Kaleb. He's way less evil than Damon or Stefan, but he's not following the school rules. Matt is back in scold mode, where he complains about the citizens of Mystic Falls, who are the dumbest human beings on the planet. The entire town was vacated for months and somehow everyone comes back?

So, obviously Landon is The Chosen One for saving humanity with the knife or something. At this point, it's a matter of how long until everyone else puts it together.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Hahaha, I love how Alaric's ruse for sending Lizzie, Hope, MG, and Kaleb to Mystic Falls is a brand new student exchange program, yet MFHS didn't get to send any students to Hogwarts.

Josie is already well on her way to heading up Dumbledore's Army since she's already that they need to learn offensive spells (not just defensive spells). I'm sure Alaric thinks that he's keeping his daughters safe this way, but he isn't. Defensive spells only work in certain situations and it's silly for him to think they will get through life that way. If they met any other witches/covens, they would be learning more than defensive spells so he's putting them at a disadvantage.

OMG, Lizzie and her HERO thing is going to be as annoying as everyone on Angel using the word champion a hundred times an episode.

I was surprised that the alpha werewolf was so brazenly rude to Josie since she's the headmaster's daughter. Apparently Alaric isn't exactly instilling a strong sense of everyone getting along if the alpha thinks it's okay to be such a bossy dick to her just because she's a witch.

Are there absolutely no teachers or administrators at the Salvatore School? How are four werewolves brawling in the hallway and the only person around is Josie?

You'd think that Josie and Rafael would have seen enough horror movies to know that if you see something freaky (especially when you know there's a monster on the loose), YOU DON'T WALK CLOSER TO SAID FREAKY STUFF. And since Josie grew up around magic and supernatural stuff, she should know that instead of going closer and touching it, she should call her dad. 

I'm glad that Dana puked her guts out and died because I was dreading the thought of her transferring to the Salvatore School and having to put up with her and Lizzie snarking at each other constantly. I'm glad they disposed of Connor too. Can we be done with the SS/MF rivalry now?

How long before Lizzie finds out that Josie kissed Rafael and has a tantrum?

[cherbitrary]

I was confused by Josie's statement that she & Lizzie don't have magic of their own & have to siphon it.  Haven't we seen both of them do magic in previous eps without seeing them siphon it?  Josie when she did whatever to her ex gf in the first ep, both of them in the football ep, Lizzie against the gargoyle, Lizzie this ep when Kaleb was running away.  Also, the line of witches she comes from - the Geminis weren't all siphoners - isn't that why Kai was considered an abomination?  What am I missing?  Did I mishear or misunderstand?

[Minneapple]

Landon remains a douche. His berating of Hope at the end was the worst.

I liked everyone else in this episode, though. Lizzie remains my favorite. And I like when Josie is more assertive so she worked for me in this episode. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

20 minutes ago, cherbitrary said:

I was confused by Josie's statement that she & Lizzie don't have magic of their own & have to siphon it.  Haven't we seen both of them do magic in previous eps without seeing them siphon it?  Josie when she did whatever to her ex gf in the first ep, both of them in the football ep, Lizzie against the gargoyle, Lizzie this ep when Kaleb was running away.  Also, the line of witches she comes from - the Geminis weren't all siphoners - isn't that why Kai was considered an abomination?  What am I missing?  Did I mishear or misunderstand?

My understanding of siphoning is that it's kind of like a rechargeable battery. They can siphon magic and store it but once they use it, they need to siphon some more magic. When they siphon, I don't think they need to use that magic immediately.

[Gwen-Stacys]

38 minutes ago, cherbitrary said:

I was confused by Josie's statement that she & Lizzie don't have magic of their own & have to siphon it.  Haven't we seen both of them do magic in previous eps without seeing them siphon it?  Josie when she did whatever to her ex gf in the first ep, both of them in the football ep, Lizzie against the gargoyle, Lizzie this ep when Kaleb was running away.  Also, the line of witches she comes from - the Geminis weren't all siphoners - isn't that why Kai was considered an abomination?  What am I missing?  Did I mishear or misunderstand?

Lizzie vs the gargoyle, she siphoned off of that Pedro kid before she sent him off. nd every time Josie does magic with Hope, she siphons off of her (red hands).

I wanna know how the school Alpha approached Hope after her first transition, if he did. Bc I don't see hi being able to bully her the same way they did Raf. And why didn't Raf just say he was part of Hope's pack?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Since some of the MF students could be compelled but some could not, I guess Matt hasn't mandated having vervain in the water supply.

When Landon said that the clothes the school gave him were from 1993, I was really hoping he would find something in one of the pockets from Kai.

[UNOSEZ]

1 hour ago, Minneapple said:

Landon remains a douche. His berating of Hope at the end was the worst.

I liked everyone else in this episode, though. Lizzie remains my favorite. And I like when Josie is more assertive so she worked for me in this episode. 

My only hope when it comes to Landon... I that I hated Ralph Dibny in the flash last year.. And now he's bearable... The diff being Ralph isn't being set up as Iris' Love interest...  I know he's supposed to be abused foster kid.. But he's just so extra.. And as they haven't really broached the abuse save  few lines he just come off as a douche... He's always laying guilt trips.. Him and hope in the high school where he was self deprecating  himself into high school nerd martyrdom was tough to sit thru... I'm glad she checked him like... " we aren't friends " and maybe if I knew he wasn't gonna be a focal point I could deal.. But we all know he's gonna be all up in everything.. So.. Not looking fwd to more... I know  the show may not b thinking of going there.. But the pairing with the most heat after 3 episodes is still RAF/Hope... Plus those two pairing up throws everyone else outta balance.. And it would be less paint by the numbers than king of emo mystery white boy sulking and brooding his way into the heart of the broken lead female 

[ursula]

I think the show is making a big mistake by having Landon be a "chosen one". We already have Hope as the figurative unicorn/Chosen One character, and the Saltzman twins as the future of the Gemini coven. The show didn't need more heavy hitters.

If anything, the show is toning down a lot of the twins's powers and dark history to make Hope the only traumatised yet powerful YA heroine of the story. Just like Hope, the twins also came into the world violently - they were used as pawns and bargaining chips for the literal Devil, their uncle attempted to kill them in utero, killing their mom in the process - and he attempted again before they turned 10, while also foreshadowing that they had the potential to be as evil as him. There's no reason for Alaric not to be as worried about them as he is about Hope. 

 

Now to the episode itself: I really, really, really enjoyed it. Who would have thought that watching kids act like kids could be so entertaining. Lizzie's constant ---- honestly, the best word is "extra-ness" was delightful. "That is what heroes do." "I volunteer as tribute!" "It's hero time!" She is easily becoming my favourite part of the show, and she is far more delightful to watch than Hope. (Which I blame entirely on the writing because Hope in The Originals Season 5 was my favourite part of the show.) The scene where they keep tossing the phone back and forth to each other - "I can't lie!" "You're the favorite!" "You're the hero!" was LOL-worthy. Seriously, the writing for this show is awesome.

And I enjoy Kaleb's character a lot. He has some great lines and I don't believe that he's evil although the show is playing up the Scary Black Man waaaay too much for my liking. There are a lot of things in the show that don't make sense. Not having the kids learn offensive magic, the literal bunny diet, etc. It seems to be more about controlling the supernatural children than teaching them coping and survival skills. Which would make sense if the school was entirely Alaric's brain child but Caroline is supposed to be the co-Head of the school. Caroline was an expert at the "Snatch-Eat-Erase" method that Kaleb is actually doing very well. He's not murdering or raping anyone. He's just feeding (although it is rather ridiculous that the vamps who do this never bother healing their victims. A drop of blood would make the scarf redundant, and restore their human blood bags to top health, keeping the nutrition factor high for their next feeding. But this was a problem in TVD as well, so I don't hold it against Kaleb or Legacies in general). I just don't see how Caroline would approve of feeding the students rabbit blood knowing full well that that would make their first inevitable taste of human blood a problem for them. You can't prepare them for the real world by keeping them in a bubble.

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Are there absolutely no teachers or administrators at the Salvatore School? How are four werewolves brawling in the hallway and the only person around is Josie?

Thank you! They've shown us Alaric teaching combat and Dorian teaching magic and the witch guidance counsellor who (I think?) was teaching the elementary-age children. But that's it. At least throw in some adult extras if they can't afford to hire recurring staff. Give us the impression that there are vampire and werewolf staff and grown-ups. What happened to Rafael was supposed to be what the school protects its students from, and if it was being allowed to happen, we needed to understand why. See someone in authority discuss it/reaffirm it. Hope is also a wolf, so is she part of the pack? Somehow I don't think so but why isn't it brought up? You'd think that would be the first thing Raf asked Josie.

Talking about Raf/Josie, that kiss was hot *fans self*. I half-expected Lizzie to show up in the middle of it and it to cause angst so I was glad the show skipped the unnecessary drama.

And talking about unnecessary drama, that's basically the definition of Landon. Again, this show would be so much better if he was just some random human kid that got turned by accident when he and Raf came to the Saltzman House. Rather than have the knife be "activated" by him, it could have been part of a larger conspiracy all along: Someone compelled him to bring it to the Salvatore House and put it in Hope's hands. If anyone is going to be Unicornque enough to activate some Mystical Knife, it would be her. Then part of the compulsion was for him to take the activated knife to the owner but something went wrong - he got turned into a vampire by accident so the compulsion broke. Confused and not knowing who to trust, he took the knife and went on the run, with Alaric etc chasing him, not knowing the story. Instead of worrying about freaking Landon and what kind of special snowflake he is, the story could be about what the kinfe is, how it awakens/attracts this new supernatural bestiary (and where the heck they're all coming from), and who kicked off this quasi-apocalypse and why.

 

(Looks at words).   ? I really had a lot of feelings about this episode/show.

[paulvdb]

3 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

But the pairing with the most heat after 3 episodes is still RAF/Hope...

I agree about that. But it would cause a lot of drama with Josie and Lizzie who are both into him. They probably won't be happy with another guy paying more attention to Hope when they already have that issue with their father.

[UNOSEZ]

39 minutes ago, paulvdb said:

I agree about that. But it would cause a lot of drama with Josie and Lizzie who are both into him. They probably won't be happy with another guy paying more attention to Hope when they already have that issue with their father.

Could be... But really it would b so muchvmor interesting than Landon/hope... And if RAF looks to hope we could at least see some reaction from Landon.. S I would shake some stuff up.. As its seems from epi 1... Josie/RAF Lizzie/Mg. Hope/Landon... And it feels like we fait accompli and  hate those especially when I look like other pairings work better on screen... Or we have the two main L.I seemingly force their way out of.. Or make stupid decisions to set up said romance... I much prefer some unstableness... Let's get Landon and Lizzie... Let's get a throuple for mg/Josie/ Penelope... I mean MG and Josie are both seemingly like the Best friend who pines in a corner for their love in every tee movie until the lead realizes that the best friend was the right choice all along.. And adding Penelope to that.. Well that just flames on a gas leak

[ursula]

57 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

And adding Penelope to that..

I had completely forgotten that Josie is supposed to be bi. Penelope reads more like a former BFF-turned-enemy than an ex-girlfriend. Even Josie's frustration "why does everyone want  her?" doesn't sound like possessiveness, it sounds like envy, like she wished she was as desirable as Penelope. And instead of Raf/Josie, they could have implied that Josie has/had a crush on Hope. In fact the show would probably make more sense if they cut out Penelope entirely and had Hope be the callous girlfriend that had dumped Josie.  

The show is not doing great on the LGBTQ front right now. 

Edited November 16, 2018 by ursula

[UNOSEZ]

37 minutes ago, ursula said:

The show is not doing great on the LGBTQ front right now. 

The whole TVD universe was kinda Meh on that an minorities.. The slightexception being the Originals (sometimes) 

[Terrafamilia]

If you have to beat up people into recognizing you as the alpha you're not much of an alpha, you're just a common bully.

[AngelKitty]

21 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Are there absolutely no teachers or administrators at the Salvatore School?

This is what I've been saying from the beginning. And, they should be vampires, werewolves, and witches. I guess there is that one witch teacher of small children, but both Alaric and Dorian are human.

I don't mind the monster of the week format, but I don't recall seeing this before in the Vampire Diaries universe. Plus, you would think they would have an old vampire or witch to ask if they had ever heard of these new creatures. I don't know why they can't have Alaric talking to Freya or Rebecca on the phone if they can't get the actresses. I don't think Rebecca would be much help, but Freya would be researching the hell out of it.

And who made all these teenage vampires?

[Lady Calypso]

21 hours ago, ursula said:

I had completely forgotten that Josie is supposed to be bi. Penelope reads more like a former BFF-turned-enemy than an ex-girlfriend. Even Josie's frustration "why does everyone want  her?" doesn't sound like possessiveness, it sounds like envy, like she wished she was as desirable as Penelope. And instead of Raf/Josie, they could have implied that Josie has/had a crush on Hope. In fact the show would probably make more sense if they cut out Penelope entirely and had Hope be the callous girlfriend that had dumped Josie.  

The show is not doing great on the LGBTQ front right now. 

I think Josie is supposed to be pansexual, actually. 

Yeah, I agree that the current "set" pairings aren't working. Landon isn't working as this super special Chosen One, especially since everyone around him is too dumb to realize this, nor do they seem to really care about figuring it out. Landon, if he was a regular human, could work, and it would add some sense of normalcy within the show. However, TVD was never able to incorporate humans effectively, hence why Matt was the last human standing by the end, and why he, for me, never was an intriguing part of that show. Landon seems to be the combination of Matt and Elena for me. He has the super specialness factor that Elena had from TVD but the blandness of Matt (human Elena was always better than vampire Elena for me). 

Hope's so toned down on this show than what she was on the last season of The Originals. I get why and it's not a bad idea, but they seem to be finding it hard to write her as an interesting character since other characters need to shine. She does have her moments, however. I liked some of her scenes but she's starting to get bogged down with Landon, and that's a no-go. One of the strongest parts of this series is her, Josie, and Lizzie. 

I totally see why Lizzie isn't everyone's cup of tea and I'd definitely hate her in real life. Yet, I still find her the best part of the series. She's got spunk, confidence, and a spark to her that others on this show haven't gotten yet. As much as I understand how Josie feels about her sister (she loves her but doesn't want to be under her shadow), she's not really memorable to me right now. Josie kissing Rafael was pretty "meh" for me, and I genuinely like Rafael. I also agree that Rafael/Hope is a way better pairing.

I still find it hard to like MG but now it has more to do with his crush on Lizzie. Meanwhile, like others, MG/Josie seem to emulate more of an interest for me. I don't see anything between MG and Lizzie and this show is absolutely going to go there with them which....meh.

The monster of the week stuff is working for me so far. TVD and The Originals didn't have anything like this, so I appreciate this show trying to separate itself from their previous two series. I don't know how long it could realistically go on for, but it's a fun thing to try, for sure.

[ursula]

3 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I still find it hard to like MG but now it has more to do with his crush on Lizzie. Meanwhile, like others, MG/Josie seem to emulate more of an interest for me. I don't see anything between MG and Lizzie and this show is absolutely going to go there with them which....meh.

Gosh I hope not. The geeky guy gets the girl trope needs to diaf already. I'd prefer if MG and Josie pull a Monica/Chandler over the season(s?) and realize that after all their various tumultuous crushes and love affairs, they care for each other more than friendship.

3 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Hope's so toned down on this show than what she was on the last season of The Originals. I get why and it's not a bad idea, but they seem to be finding it hard to write her as an interesting character since other characters need to shine. She does have her moments, however. I liked some of her scenes but she's starting to get bogged down with Landon, and that's a no-go. One of the strongest parts of this series is her, Josie, and Lizzie. 

I don't think Hope is toned down as much as she's written... differently from how she was in the Originals. In the short moments we see her in NOLA before everything goes to hell in the handbasket, it established that Hope was close to all her family (except Klaus) - she face-timed with Kol, she did magic with Freya who even visited her in Mystic Falls, she was close to Keelin, and she and Marcel had a lovely rapport ("you ratted me, you jerk!"). But Legacies!Hope seems to be an orphan with no family except Alaric.

The twins claim that they tried making friends with Hope and were constantly rebuffed --- but how does that fit in with this scene?

 

It would make more sense if Hope had been a happy, cheerful, outgoing girl ---- then her parents's death changed her personality. But apparently she's always been the loner? 

Basically, the backstory isn't gelling with established canon.

 

3 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I think Josie is supposed to be pansexual, actually. 

I thought that was Penelope? Although it doesn't change what I meant: Penelope/Josie isn't written like exes, but like broken up friends. And she is such a redundant character. If we never see her in the show again, it would make zero difference to the story. 

[Unclejosh]

Zach Roerig is NOT aging well at all. Despite Matt Davis being 7 years old, they look opposite in ages.  I would believe Zach being Matt's older brother in another show.

[UNOSEZ]

1 hour ago, Unclejosh said:

Zach Roerig is NOT aging well at all. Despite Matt Davis being 7 years old, they look opposite in ages.  I would believe Zach being Matt's older brother in another show.

The first stills I saw of Matt in this show I kept thinking they were using makeup or something.. He's looking ruff 

[AngelKitty]

Can someone please tell me what pansexual is? For some reason, I feel uncomfortable googling it.

[Lady Calypso]

5 minutes ago, AngelKitty said:

Can someone please tell me what pansexual is? For some reason, I feel uncomfortable googling it.

Don't be! Pansexual is when you're attracted to basically anyone, regardless of gender. Essentially, you can be attracted to males, females, non-binary people, etc. Unlike bisexuality, where you are attracted to either a male or a female, pansexuality is more about you being attracted to a person. I've been reading up on pansexuality myself because it's not as easy to understand as some other sexualities. So I'd definitely say go for the research anyway! 

2 hours ago, ursula said:

I thought that was Penelope? Although it doesn't change what I meant: Penelope/Josie isn't written like exes, but like broken up friends. And she is such a redundant character. If we never see her in the show again, it would make zero difference to the story. 

It could be both of them. I know Penelope made the comment in the pilot about sexuality being fluid. I do remember a couple of articles saying that Josie was the pansexual one, but you're right in that the writing for Josie's relationships, especially with Penelope, haven't been developed yet. I am willing to give them some more time since it's only episode four, but this stuff should be better written and acted out sooner, rather than later. 

2 hours ago, ursula said:

The twins claim that they tried making friends with Hope and were constantly rebuffed --- but how does that fit in with this scene?

 

It could be that the girls were friendly toward each other, but they never really did take that step toward becoming actual friends. Yeah, it's definitely true that this scene doesn't necessarily fit in with what Lizzie has been saying about Hope, but we HAVE had very little of Hope/Lizzie/Josie that I'm ok with a little bit of backtracking. Either way, I think Lizzie's been shown to be overdramatic at times (most of the time) so her interpretation is likely not right. I can't remember Josie being as forefront about Hope as Lizzie. I feel like Lizzie's been the most jealous and Josie's been quite friendly toward Hope. 

[ursula]

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

I can't remember Josie being as forefront about Hope as Lizzie. I feel like Lizzie's been the most jealous and Josie's been quite friendly toward Hope. 

In the Pilot they both seemed to equally dislike her, though. 

I know I'm probably nitpicking but the whole point of Hope going to the school wasn't to learn how to control her powers - she had more than enough mentors in her immediate and extended family - it was to make friends and have some normalcy in her life. So that she snubbed overtures of friendship, isolated herself (when Hayley's literal words to Alaric in that scene is "this is what she's always wanted"/"she's adaptable") is a retcon.

In The Originals-5 when Hope mentions the Salvatore twins, she makes it sound like they're snobs. And (ignoring the age gap thing) that would make better sense - if Hope had been the one who was reaching out, and she got cut off, and she just decided to stay a loner since no one wanted to make friends with her. But again, Lizzie's story is that Hope was the one who repeatedly iced them out.

Part of the reason why it's so head-scratchy is because I feel that the show wants us to love Hope and ---- while not outright dislike Lizzie but certainly "value" her less than Hope. But this writing puts Lizzie in the sympathetic light, and Hope in a grayer light. It just doesn't make sense from any perspective.

[Josie means Love]

Josie absolutely bossed this episode. I don't really know why some people are complaining about Raf/Josie. They are yet to clarify her as pansexual in the show, but Kaylee Bryant confirmed it on Instagram multiple times. They wouldn't have done that if she was going to be with Penelope, Hope or anyone other than Raf. They've got that chemistry together, they both have feelings for each other and this is the only straightforward relationship in the series so far. Their relationship is really similar to Caroline and Tyler's from back in the day. I just hope it doesn't end like their relationship.

The only thing that could get in the way of Raf/Josie is Lizzie. We don't know how she's going to react when she learns about their kiss, we don't know if she's gonna be completely OK with that, but she should be. I mean Josie has been trying her whole life to make Lizzie happy, she wanted her to be happy even at her own expense. Lizzie shouldn't be a spoiled brat this time and she shouldn't stand in their way, Rafael clearly chose Josie and wants Josie. Plus, Julie Plec said that there will be "no love triangles" this time, so we can assume that it's gonna be Raf/Josie, Landon/Hope, MG/Lizzie. At least the show is currently going in that direction and I'm totally fine with it.

Anyway, I guess it's too early to talk about romance whatsoever. What bothers me at the moment is that I'm absolutely in love with the show already and I really hate that one week break. Having to wait 11 more days for the next episode is such a pain, I might rewatch the first 4 episodes 4 or 5 times until then. 

[ursula]

1 hour ago, Josie means Love said:

I don't really know why some people are complaining about Raf/Josie. T

I'm not complaining about Raf/Josie specifically. They are cute together and like you said, their romance seems pretty straightforward and I'd be OK if they went there.

My issue is that Josie/Penelope are supposed to be romantic exes but they aren't written that way and the show could have had them be ex-friends with the same narrative. And so far all the romantic/potentially romantic dynamics we've seen are heterosexual: MG/Penelope, MG's crush on Lizzie, Landon/Hope, Raf/Josie, Raf/Lizzie, even the brief Raf/Hope in the episode 2. So for all the promotion for the show has thrown around phrases like "fluid sexuality"... the result is very ... well, straight. Which I guess is really my issue --- that the product does not match the advertisement. 

1 hour ago, Josie means Love said:

MG/Lizzie

No. Just no. I really like MG - he's probably the world's most adorable vampire --- but the trope of the geeky/nice guy winning over the unapproachable girl that initially disdained him needs to die. It's connoted with far too much problematic stuff.

[Rushmoras]

No, but seriously, if the show wont start explaining soon how come there are fairy-tale monsters afoot (mind you, none of them ever featured in VD and TO, and wouldn't the First Borns know about their existence?) - and it looks to me that they are going Universal Studio route (because that monster in the end looked to me like Swamp Thing) - I'm going to quit. Because, while this show has action scenes and whatnot, it's a nonsensical Veronica Mars show with supernatural elements. I'm not complaining, just feeling that the tone of this show isn't really for those who watched VD and/or TO.

[blazar]

I'm sorry but I'm happy we have all this new creatures. we have 8 seasons of  vampire diaries and 5 seasons of the originals  with only vampires, witches and werewolves. It was getting boring we need more variety.

[Chris24601]

On 11/16/2018 at 10:07 AM, Gwen-Stacys said:

I wanna know how the school Alpha approached Hope after her first transition, if he did. Bc I don't see hi being able to bully her the same way they did Raf. And why didn't Raf just say he was part of Hope's pack?

The school Alpha likely didn't approach Hope on account of her already being the Alpha of another pack.

Hope is the Alpha of the Crescent Moon pack and has the birthmark to prove it. One important distinction between Hope (as a member of the Crescent Moons) and the other werewolves is that the Crescent Moons have full control of their shapeshifting (even being able to only transform their eyes or grow claws while remaining otherwise human) due to Hayley's ritualized marriage to Jackson imparting all the hybrid abilities to her pack (not to mention having the hybrid's greater strength, speed and faster healing compared to normal werewolves even in human form which is why we see Hope able to pull off Buffy-like fighting moves) whereas the Alpha and all the other werewolves we've seen at the school seem to be limited to changing involuntarily only at the full moon.

So not only is Hope the Alpha of a different pack, she's also the Alpha of a pack that is much much stronger than his. Frankly, Hope's lack of interest is the only reason the current guy is even school Alpha to begin with.

Raf's inability to voluntarily shapeshift is proof that he's part of Hope's pack, so he's basically stuck with the school Alpha in charge (though presumably Raf will eventually rise to challenge and replace the current Alpha because that's just how stories like these go).

Sidebar: I do kind of appreciate the honestly in Alaric admitting that he relies on Hope not only because she's so much stronger than pretty much all the other students (and most of the faculty) at the school, but because she's already so damaged by what she's experienced that the stuff he has her do so the other kids don't have to is unlikely to do any more damage than has already been done. Its not nice... but it is pragmatic.

[Gwen-Stacys]

6 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

The school Alpha likely didn't approach Hope on account of her already being the Alpha of another pack.

She's not the alpha tho. They've never said she was the Alpha or even explained how the crescents handle succession. Hell, Luciana seemed like she was the Alpha before the Nazi vamps killed her. But I'm almost 75% certain that she's not the alpha...Hell, even in OT season 5, Hope was pretending to be only a witch at her school and no one (outside of Caroline, Alaric, and that one kid) even knew who or what she was. I'm assuming Klaus and Elijah showing up (coupled with the fact that she's now Hope Mikaelson and no longer Hope Marshall) kinda threw that notion for a loop. It's probably safer to say that they left her alone because she's a hybrid and normal wolves have always been hot and cold with hybrids than her being a 17-year-old alpha. 

[ursula]

1 hour ago, Gwen-Stacys said:

I'm assuming Klaus and Elijah showing up (coupled with the fact that she's now Hope Mikaelson and no longer Hope Marshall) kinda threw that notion for a loop. 

I wish there was some explanation for this, though. It's not like if Elijah and Klaus went about introducing themselves to the student body. Hope could still have kept her anonymity. 

There are some logical leaps from The Originals season 5 and this show. 

[Diapason Untuned]

On 11/16/2018 at 9:29 AM, Minneapple said:

Landon remains a douche. His berating of Hope at the end was the worst.

Was he really though? She was treating him like garbage the whole day, which he seemed to accept as penance, but then she basically went along with the whole "Landon is a monster" thing. He wasn't even all that hard on her at the end either.

[ursula]

38 minutes ago, Diapason Untuned said:

Was he really though? She was treating him like garbage the whole day, which he seemed to accept as penance, but then she basically went along with the whole "Landon is a monster" thing. He wasn't even all that hard on her at the end either.

Well that would apply if "Landon is a monster" wasn't a valid theory. Kaleb was right - the crazy stuff started happening since Landon stole that knife. That's not an insult. That's the truth. And since Landon can't explain why he stole that knife then it leaves: 1, he is an unknown supernatural creature who's lying about his motivations, or 2, he's an unknown supernatural creature who has an alter ego that he cannot control. 

The fact that Hope did not immediately leap at his defence, but genuinely considered that yeah, this has something to do with Landon wasn't wrong or a mistake - it was a rational reaction for her character to have considering that one dance and one kiss aside, she really doesn't know Landon. He is a complete stranger to her, who reappeared at the school, took a knife and triggered a serious of unexplainable events. 

His berating of Hope was idiotic because even Landon himself can't explain Landon. She has no reason to trust him or stand up for him. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

In this interview, Danielle says the spider slime at the end of the episode is KY with food coloring and that it took forever to get out of their hair and eyes. She also said it was really hot when they shot that scene.

[Diapason Untuned]

22 hours ago, ursula said:

Well that would apply if "Landon is a monster" wasn't a valid theory. Kaleb was right - the crazy stuff started happening since Landon stole that knife. That's not an insult. That's the truth. And since Landon can't explain why he stole that knife then it leaves: 1, he is an unknown supernatural creature who's lying about his motivations, or 2, he's an unknown supernatural creature who has an alter ego that he cannot control. 

The fact that Hope did not immediately leap at his defence, but genuinely considered that yeah, this has something to do with Landon wasn't wrong or a mistake - it was a rational reaction for her character to have considering that one dance and one kiss aside, she really doesn't know Landon. He is a complete stranger to her, who reappeared at the school, took a knife and triggered a serious of unexplainable events. 

His berating of Hope was idiotic because even Landon himself can't explain Landon. She has no reason to trust him or stand up for him. 

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but wasn't he on the school grounds when the incident occurred? I don't expect Kaleb to know that, but Hope should have.

[ursula]

2 hours ago, Diapason Untuned said:

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but wasn't he on the school grounds when the incident occurred? I don't expect Kaleb to know that, but Hope should have.

That doesn't change the fact that it was Landon taking the knife that started the Monster Attacks. 

The Monster Attacks were caused by Landon. That's pretty much indisputable by now. The question is whether he's an innocent, unknowing catalyst or he's a mastermind.

Considering that Landon is an absolute stranger to everyone but Raf and he can't even give an explanation to defend himself, there's no reason for Hope or anyone to give him the benefit of the doubt.  

Personally, think it would be a great twist if the show keep portraying Landon as some innocent, deer-in-the-headlights secret Chosen Woobie (aka Elena) only for them to turn that on its head and show that Landon was coldly calculatingly scheming all along. And that Raf's girlfriend's death wasn't an accident, but the ticket Landon needed to get into the school and get the knife. 

Edited November 27, 2018 by ursula

[Diapason Untuned]

10 minutes ago, ursula said:

That doesn't change the fact that it was Landon taking the knife that started the Monster Attacks. 

The Monster Attacks were caused by Landon. That's pretty much indisputable by now. The question is whether he's an innocent, unknowing catalyst or he's a mastermind.

Considering that Landon is an absolute stranger to everyone but Raf and he can't even give an explanation to defend himself, there's no reason for Hope or anyone to give him the benefit of the doubt.  

No one, not even Landon denies that him stealing the knife caused the problem to begin with.

He doesn't even seem to deny that it makes him untrustworthy. But that doesn't mean he was the one that actually assaulted Dana, which was what Kaleb accused him of.

As far as I am aware, he was on the compound when that occurred and so it can't have been him. You're right that Hope doesn't know him and has no reason to defend him, but she could have at least pointed out that out.

 

Quote

Personally, think it would be a great twist if the show keep portraying Landon as some innocent, deer-in-the-headlights secret Chosen Woobie (aka Elena) only for them to turn that on its head and show that Landon was coldly calculatingly scheming all along. And that Raf's girlfriend's death wasn't an accident, but the ticket Landon needed to get into the school and get the knife. 

I'd say this is too out there, but then I remember TVD and the Originals.

[ursula]

2 hours ago, Diapason Untuned said:

But that doesn't mean he was the one that actually assaulted Dana, which was what Kaleb accused him of.

As far as I am aware, he was on the compound when that occurred and so it can't have been him. You're right that Hope doesn't know him and has no reason to defend him, but she could have at least pointed out that out.

Kaleb accused him of being responsible for Dana's assault. This was just after they realized that she hadn't been eaten by a vampire but by a new Monster. He wasn't accusing Landon of being the Monster. His words to Landon paraphrased were: "All these things started happening when he showed up." 

Which is true.

Also, no one knows when/how Dana was assaulted. We the audience see her parked at the school and her car being attacked, but the students don't have that information. Throw in magic and any "alibi" that Landon claims to have goes out of the window. This isn't a world where having a physical alibi automatically means you're  not guilty of causing magical harm.

2 hours ago, Diapason Untuned said:

I'd say this is too out there, but then I remember TVD and the Originals.

There were a few jaw-dropping moments in both series:

Spoiler

season 2's the sun/moon curse, season 3's "It's Alaric!", even the way season 6 integrated Kai's, Jo's and the Parker twins stories was unexpected. But I agree that they are few and far between. And the only twists I remember from TO is "Marcel-is-the-Beast".

[Diapason Untuned]

5 hours ago, ursula said:

Kaleb accused him of being responsible for Dana's assault. This was just after they realized that she hadn't been eaten by a vampire but by a new Monster. He wasn't accusing Landon of being the Monster. His words to Landon paraphrased were: "All these things started happening when he showed up." 

When they were discussing what happened to her, Kaled literally said

Quote

Well, maybe the monster's been right in front of us all along.

That sure sounds like he was accusing Landon of being the attacker to me.
 

Quote

Also, no one knows when/how Dana was assaulted. We the audience see her parked at the school and her car being attacked, but the students don't have that information.

Donovan told the students that Dana and Sasha went missing the night before.

 

Quote

Throw in magic and any "alibi" that Landon claims to have goes out of the window. This isn't a world where having a physical alibi automatically means you're  not guilty of causing magical harm.

I mean, yeah, Landon could have teleported over, or perhaps he's the Flash in disguise and ran over before anyone noticed or maybe he time traveled and did it. But seeing that no one knows anything about anything concerning him and what he can do, someone could have at least brought up his alibi rather than totally ignoring it. and jumping straight into accusing him.

[ursula]

1 hour ago, Diapason Untuned said:

 

Quote

Well, maybe the monster's been right in front of us all along.

That sure sounds like he was accusing Landon of being the attacker to me.

I think it's easier to let the transcript speak for itself: 

Quote

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T80Znj08iEY&t=8s

Hope: Whatever did this is not a vampire. It’s got to be another monster for the knife.

Kaleb: Or maybe the monster’s been right in front of us all along.

Landon: Are you serious?

Kaleb: Aint none of this started happening until you showed up and stole that knife. Which is exactly what the other monsters came here to do. You’re saying it’s a coincidence?

Landon: Yes, yes I am!*

 

[Narrator Voice]: *No, it's not a coincidence.  😂

 

Quote

perhaps he's the Flash in disguise and ran over before anyone noticed

Er... I don't know if this wasn't obvious (maybe not, CGI budget etc) but in this verse, witches can manipulate matter with their minds, and vampires have super-speed, super-strength, incredible endurance, mind-control, super-fast reflexes... 😆

Like I can't believe I need to say this but ... this is a 🧛🧙‍♀️🐺 supernatural show. A vampire can compel a human to slit their mother's throat* and confess to it. A witch can hex an altar boy into mass-murdering his fellow seminarians.

 

Trying to make a Law-and-Order argument of time of death and alibi and fingerprints and forensics to justify Hope having blind faith in a complete stranger .... is appealing to the rules of an entirely different genre. 

*(Pretty sure that Aurora de Martel had an iron-clad alibi for Cami O'Connell's time of death. 🤣) 

Edited November 28, 2018 by ursula

[ElectricBoogaloo]

15 hours ago, Diapason Untuned said:

I'd say this is too out there, but then I remember TVD and the Originals.

No amount of long term scheming or shocking plot twist is too out there for TVD or The Originals so I'd be totally fine with it here too!

[Diapason Untuned]

11 hours ago, ursula said:

I think it's easier to let the transcript speak for itself

I read the transcript too. It seemed to me that Kaleb was accusing Landon of being the attacker, and when he thought that was ridiculous, he brought up the fact that all this creepy stuff started happening when Landon stole the knife.

 

Quote

 

Er... I don't know if this wasn't obvious (maybe not, CGI budget etc) but in this verse, witches can manipulate matter with their minds, and vampires have super-speed, super-strength, incredible endurance, mind-control, super-fast reflexes... 😆

Like I can't believe I need to say this but ... this is a 🧛🧙‍♀️🐺 supernatural show. A vampire can compel a human to slit their mother's throat* and confess to it. A witch can hex an altar boy into mass-murdering his fellow seminarians.

 

Trying to make a Law-and-Order argument of time of death and alibi and fingerprints and forensics to justify Hope having blind faith in a complete stranger .... is appealing to the rules of an entirely different genre. 

 

I'm well aware of what genre this show is, thanks.

Perhaps you hadn't noticed that I was being somewhat facetious with my earlier comment to illustrate my point, which is that since no one is able to determine exactly what abilities, if any, Landon has, it's not fair to accuse of him of a crime with the excuse that he could potentially be able to do anything. That's a quick way  to start witchhunts.  

I'm not asking Hope or anyone to have blind faith in Landon, just to at least point out his alibi, for fairness' sake. If people want to then disregard that alibi because he's already shady, that's fine. But at least bring it up.

[UNOSEZ]

All I know is that Landon has been quick with the guilt trips.. Hope didn't treat him like ... He started acting like they were the best of friends and being extra chatty in the school hallway after oh so self-deprecatingly pointing out where he got beat up ( poor Landon) and she reminded him that they weren't really friends... He's laid a few guilt trips on Rafael and didnt seem to mind keeping RAF in danger to keep playing butch and sundance on the run.. So until I see some improvement in his character I'm not really giving him the benefit of any doubt.. And the fact that the show basically has him set up as the male lead across from hope.. Doesn't do him any favors

[ursula]

4 hours ago, Diapason Untuned said:

I read the transcript too. It seemed to me that Kaleb was accusing Landon of being the attacker, and when he thought that was ridiculous, he brought up the fact that all this creepy stuff started happening when Landon stole the knife.

Huh. 

4 hours ago, Diapason Untuned said:

Perhaps you hadn't noticed that I was being somewhat facetious with my earlier comment to illustrate my point, which is that since no one is able to determine exactly what abilities, if any,

So what was the point of this:

16 hours ago, Diapason Untuned said:

perhaps he's the Flash in disguise and ran over before anyone noticed

Arguing realism on this show?

 

Quote

Landon has, it's not fair to accuse of him of a crime with the excuse that he could potentially be able to do anything. 

That no one knows what Landon is all the more reason he should be suspected.

Kaleb was vindicated the moment the girl started spitting black blood and ... dissolved. He's a vampire. He can't do that. 

If Landon could categorized, they'd know his limitations and his strengths. The fact that he's an unknown quantity makes him all the more dangerous.

 

4 hours ago, Diapason Untuned said:

I'm not asking Hope or anyone to have blind faith in Landon, just to at least point out his alibi, for fairness' sake. If people want to then disregard that alibi because he's already shady, that's fine. But at least bring it up.

My point is that your definition of "alibi" is not relevant to the genre, and that's why it doesn't matter to Hope or to the other students.

You're assuming that Landon is owed the benefit of the doubt by a bunch of strangers when the only thing that is known about him is that his presence in the School and theft of the knife heralded the Monsters.

The only person in this story obligated to trust Landon is Raf. And even he should be hard-pressed to do so in the light of so many unanswered questions and coincidences.

(I don't want to keep repeating the same things over and over again so thanks for the discussion.)

[Diapason Untuned]

5 hours ago, ursula said:

Arguing realism on this show?

 

How does the Flash= realism?

 

Quote

That no one knows what Landon is all the more reason he should be suspected.

Kaleb was vindicated the moment the girl started spitting black blood and ... dissolved. He's a vampire. He can't do that. 

If Landon could categorized, they'd know his limitations and his strengths. The fact that he's an unknown quantity makes him all the more dangerous.

 

The fact that no one knows what he is doesn't mean it's fair game to accuse him of any crime.

Using your logic, they should just kill him, because maybe he's the Antichrist destined to destroy the world.

 

Quote

My point is that your definition of "alibi" is not relevant to the genre, and that's why it doesn't matter to Hope or to the other students.

You're assuming that Landon is owed the benefit of the doubt by a bunch of strangers when the only thing that is known about him is that his presence in the School and theft of the knife heralded the Monsters.

I don't think Landon specifically is owed anything. I think everyone is owed not being accused of every crime because they're an unknown.

[ursula]

24 minutes ago, Diapason Untuned said:

How does the Flash= realism?

 

😶

15 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

No amount of long term scheming or shocking plot twist is too out there for TVD or The Originals so I'd be totally fine with it here too!

The best seasons were always the seasons with the elaborate, intricate plots. I hope Legacies leans closer to that than love triangles.

[Minneapple]

On 11/26/2018 at 11:59 AM, Diapason Untuned said:

Was he really though? She was treating him like garbage the whole day, which he seemed to accept as penance, but then she basically went along with the whole "Landon is a monster" thing. He wasn't even all that hard on her at the end either.

She kept trusting him and he kept abusing that trust. They still don't know the deal with the knife. And yeah, he was hard on her. Using her insecurities on her like that when she had been honest with him is the absolute worst.