S01.E08: Fight Or Flight

[alexvillage]

15 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Here's the thing about Gary as a character: he is actually a pretty damn good friend. He's been supportive, even when he shouldn't be, he's been there when he needs to be, and yes, he definitely is pushy but it's because he cares. Meanwhile, his so called friends treat him like dirt. Even despite knowing him longer, they chose Maggie over him about their break-up, even before they found out about Maggie's cancer returning. What kind of shitty friends choose a woman they met four weeks ago over their supposed best friend? Even if he's being a jackass, his friends should still give him the benefit of the doubt over Maggie. It does go to show that Gary wasn't wrong in the pilot about them not really being friends. We've had a lot of inconsistencies about the pilot, but they kind of brought it back. 

I agree that Gary is a good friend and that he is the one who can keep secrets. But his "pushy" part is selfish. He is doing this because he sees his loss, not what Maggie wants. It is what most of us feel, but something I believe we need to be conscious about if/when dealing with similar situations. This constant push for treatment and cures, for the heroism, is all fun of inspiration but if it goes against what the person wants, it is just selfish. 

Ideally, Gary would give Maggie some space and not engage in bets or deals to get her to do what she has decided based on what the doctor told her. She is terminal, she will die in less than a year or in less than five, the treatment might not work. It is not like she will live as a disabled person, which is something that people are afraid of but in some/many/most cases is not terminal, or no one can give an actual life expectancy. If I remember well, it is a matter of time for her (of course, the writers can just forget all this and cure her).

One thing I like about the show is this nuanced approach, sometimes the possibility of a nuanced approach, to themes like this one. I do like the character but I don't want them to convince her to seek treatment for the sake of making others comfortable. 

[HazelEyes4325]

On 12/1/2018 at 12:45 PM, Lady Calypso said:

Eddie just needs to only have scenes with Theo and then I could like him. His flip flopping between Katherine and Delilah is pathetic, at best. Although it does seem like the showrunner doesn't even know which woman is endgame for Eddie, so that's better than Eddie/Delilah being endgame for sure. Having him go from pining over Delilah to looking at Hunter as a jealous ex gives me a little hope on that front. Not much, of course, but a little. I'd hope that DJ Nash realizes that Eddie/Delilah is a sinking ship and that the show will tank even further if he continues that route.

5

(This is directed at the show/universe/etc, not at you @Lady Calypso ...)

What I don't understand is why Eddie's endgame has to be Eddie and (insert name here).  Why is it that everyone has to be paired off?  Generally, this is a thing that pisses me off about TV but I find it especially infuriating here because Eddie should not be with anyone.  This is not because he's a monster or anything, but because he's a child.  He doesn't have the emotional capability to be in an adult romantic relationship with anyone.  I agree Eddie with Delilah is ridiculous, unbelievable, and frankly more than a little insulting, but Eddie paired up with Katherine isn't that much better, honestly.

If Nash's plan is for Delilah to actually be a, you know, Delilah and manipulate Eddie for her own needs, we need to see that more clearly.  If he has any other plans, he needs to just give them up because of the way he's written the show, it will not work.

Now, of course, Eddie needs to be in some sort of relationship with Katherine, because they have a child.  However, relationships come in all flavors and romantic is just one.  In a well-written show (which, I acknowledge, this is not), there could be a future for Eddie and someone down the line, but there is a hell of a lot of work that Eddie needs to do before that happens.  And, no, it shouldn't be Delilah.  If the show is smart, it would be Katherine.  Really, the only way that can sensically make Katherine last as a character is to keep her entwined somehow with Eddie.  Despite Katherine's apparent new friendship with everyone's black BFF, she really has nothing to do with this story beyond that.

And, of course, there is also the issue with viewers.  If it wants to last, this show can't get rid of either David Giuntoli or Grace Park, and it can't do anything too damaging to their characters (which means they need to get on the ball about starting the redemption process with Eddie).  However, this show could easily drop Stephanie Szostak and I doubt anyone would turn off the show.  She just doesn't have the fan following as an actress and Delilah seems to be very unpopular among the majority of viewers.  The good news for Szostak (although maybe not for us), is that they can completely disentangle Delilah from Eddie and Delilah still has a place in the show.  That can't be said for Katherine.

Edited December 2, 2018 by HazelEyes4325

[DearEvette]

The only two things I liked about this episode was Rome needling Eddie about Katherine's hot coworker.  And the really, nice honest conversation Katherine had with her hot coworker after Gary's meltdown.  I mean, I would be way more down for watching a romance unfold between Katherine and her hot coworker than anything Gary/Maggie related.

And I cringed the whole time watching that end scene with Gary.  James Roday is usually one of my favorite performers on the show.  He is especially good with delivering the zingy one-liners.  But watching that was just awful.  I got second hand embarrassment for everyone involved.

Here's the thing... when I decided to watch this show, it was because I thought it was supposed to be about this friendship between these four guys and how the suicide of one of them affects the rest and the ripple effects it has created in their relationships/family in the aftermath.

Instead, for two eps in a row this has been about the rando girlfriend whose cancer storyline had cannibalized the show.  WTF?

What about what was going on with Jon?  His business?  Go back and watch the trailer is is ALL about Jon.  And yet the show, eight episodes in, and you can barely feel that anything happening is because of his death or his impact. 

Why isn't Delilah learning about the secrets her husband was keeping?

Why isn't Katherine angry as hell and going scorched earth on Eddie's ass after finding out about his affair.  Honestly at this point I kinda wish they had made Katherine the ball-breaker outcast she appeared to be in the pilot.  At least she's be more interesting than the doormat outcast they've made her. 

Why is the only story they can write for Regina is to be everyone's support system with no inner story of her own?   Of the main actresses, Christina Moses and Grace Park strike me as having the most on screen charisma and yet  they have been given the least to work with.

Why aren't we getting more flashbacks of the friendship that include Jon that tells us how he was such the lynchpin to this group?  Is Ron Livingston just not available?

I watched last week and this week back to back marveling at how central a character Maggie has become and whose issues seem to have eclipsed everyone else's especially Jon. My mind just boggles at this.

I dunno, I'll give it a few more eps but if it keeps on this trajectory I might just peace out.

[HazelEyes4325]

12 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

Why isn't Katherine angry as hell and going scorched earth on Eddie's ass after finding out about his affair.  Honestly at this point I kinda wish they had made Katherine the ball-breaker outcast she appeared to be in the pilot.  At least she's be more interesting than the doormat outcast they've made her. 

Why is the only story they can write for Regina is to be everyone's support system with no inner story of her own?   Of the main actresses, Christina Moses and Grace Park strike me as having the most on screen charisma and yet  they have been given the least to work with.

5

Katherine is a unicorn--she is a completely unrealistic character.  It's too bad because she gets instant-sympathy from the audience as the wronged wife and, as much as I don't want to admit it, she's well-performed.  Honestly, it wouldn't be that hard to write her well, but they choose not to.

I am so with you about Regina/Christina Moses.  She's the best of all the actresses and she gets absolutely nothing.  That is one of the most frustrating thing about the show.  You have Moses and Park (and I will include Miller--she's a strong actress stuck with a fucked up role) and all we get is a load of Szostak with a sprinkling of Ochoa, two truly terrible actresses.

Edited December 2, 2018 by HazelEyes4325

[CountryGirl]

Katherine not going scorched earth - yet - is actually pretty spot-on with betrayed spouses/significant others. She's known for what, a few weeks, about the affair? She's in numb, making it through one day, one hour, one moment at a time, survival mode - for herself and her child. Anger isn't part of the equation - yet.

It's typically three to six months after discovery when the anger stage hits and I hope she gives it to Eddie and Delilah with both barrels loaded...and I wouldn't be so nice to the friends who aren't out and out condoning but rug-sweeping pretty damn good, aside from some disappointed looks and snarky comments. I do have to admit that Rome and his "firm" comments re Katherine's date made me LOL. I do think reactions are a bit colored by the double-whammy of Jon's death and Delilah being a widow and pregnant but not to the extent of these constant get-togethers. 

[Shorty2007]

I need to say something about this episode, besides the fact that I have already watched it three times since it aired last week.

I don't really care about the whole baby daddy thing between Eddie and Deliah, mainly because I don't watch the show for them specifically. Rome's depression scenes was pretty good, and I can almost relate, of course I never tried to kill myself, so I get that its hard to talk to family and close friends which is why he didn't tell Regina. I keep wondering to myself why Katherine went to that taste testing thing, all I can say is kudos to her for keeping it together in front of Eddie and Deliah, without slapping them both across the face a time or two because they would probably deserve that. And Ashley is mysterious and keeping secrets which I hope will get exposed sooner rather than later; so I don't really have an opinion on her at the moment.

I don't agree with Gary for the way he's treating mostly Maggie, but yelling at everyone else too like that. But I do agree with him on one way. That's probably how I would act if I knew and loved someone who had cancer and was refusing treatment. I think, and this very well could be a one sided agreement, but I think that he fell in love from the moment he first met her, so I think he's fighting for the woman he loves; but I don't know how to justify him sleeping with Ashley. I may watch the episode a few more times and see if there's a justification there.

[TaurusRose]

On 11/29/2018 at 10:51 PM, WhosThatGirl said:

So with all the references people have found, this show is Friends but everyone is so terrible, everyones Ross?!?! 

Never watched friends.  Could not stand the cast.  Ditto for thirtysomething and I've not drank the This Is Us kool-aid.  I'm finding this show incredibly tiresome.  They have some good plots, i.e. Maggie's refusal to take chemo, Rome's depression, Grace's role in the group dynamic, but they insist on boiling it down to simplistic, soap opera tropes.  Also, cannot stand the Eddie and Delilah storyline.  Puh-lese.  I want to slap either one or both of them every time they appear on screen.  I'm really tired of Ashley and her sketchy antics.  I don't like Gary at all.  He needs to stand down. I don't know how much longer I will be able to watch this crap.

[TaurusRose]

On 12/2/2018 at 12:40 PM, HazelEyes4325 said:

(This is directed at the show/universe/etc, not at you @Lady Calypso ...)

What I don't understand is why Eddie's endgame has to be Eddie and (insert name here).  Why is it that everyone has to be paired off?  Generally, this is a thing that pisses me off about TV but I find it especially infuriating here because Eddie should not be with anyone.  This is not because he's a monster or anything, but because he's a child.  He doesn't have the emotional capability to be in an adult romantic relationship with anyone.  I agree Eddie with Delilah is ridiculous, unbelievable, and frankly more than a little insulting, but Eddie paired up with Katherine isn't that much better, honestly.

If Nash's plan is for Delilah to actually be a, you know, Delilah and manipulate Eddie for her own needs, we need to see that more clearly.  If he has any other plans, he needs to just give them up because of the way he's written the show, it will not work.

Now, of course, Eddie needs to be in some sort of relationship with Katherine, because they have a child.  However, relationships come in all flavors and romantic is just one.  In a well-written show (which, I acknowledge, this is not), there could be a future for Eddie and someone down the line, but there is a hell of a lot of work that Eddie needs to do before that happens.  And, no, it shouldn't be Delilah.  If the show is smart, it would be Katherine.  Really, the only way that can sensically make Katherine last as a character is to keep her entwined somehow with Eddie.  Despite Katherine's apparent new friendship with everyone's black BFF, she really has nothing to do with this story beyond that.

And, of course, there is also the issue with viewers.  If it wants to last, this show can't get rid of either David Giuntoli or Grace Park, and it can't do anything too damaging to their characters (which means they need to get on the ball about starting the redemption process with Eddie).  However, this show could easily drop Stephanie Szostak and I doubt anyone would turn off the show.  She just doesn't have the fan following as an actress and Delilah seems to be very unpopular among the majority of viewers.  The good news for Szostak (although maybe not for us), is that they can completely disentangle Delilah from Eddie and Delilah still has a place in the show.  That can't be said for Katherine.

 

Okay, maybe I'm being overly sensitive, but I find this incredibly rude.  The character has a name and it's Hunter, is his race important? Also, I don't see him as anyone's BFF, I see him as Katherine's colleague and I really don't want to see her or him   embraced by this group of questionable "friends."

[DearEvette]

11 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

Okay, maybe I'm being overly sensitive, but I find this incredibly rude.  The character has a name and it's Hunter, is his race important? Also, I don't see him as anyone's BFF, I see him as Katherine's colleague and I really don't want to see her or him   embraced by this group of questionable "friends."

I don;t want to speak for the original poster, but I believe that is in reference to Regina  -- who I have to agree is basically being written as the black best friend which is a well known tv and lit trope.

[TaurusRose]

15 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

I don;t want to speak for the original poster, but I believe that is in reference to Regina  -- who I have to agree is basically being written as the black best friend which is a well known tv and lit trope.

Thanks for the input.  The trope still sucks and it needs to stop.  

[HazelEyes4325]

14 hours ago, DearEvette said:

I don;t want to speak for the original poster, but I believe that is in reference to Regina  -- who I have to agree is basically being written as the black best friend which is a well known tv and lit trope.

Correct.  I was referring to Regina (and Rome).  The trope is well known and tired and I'm very disappointed to see it perpetuated here in this show.  Both characters (and actors) deserve much better.

Edited December 4, 2018 by HazelEyes4325

[TOWTooMuchTV]

Just a random thought, but assuming Maggie has an epiphany after her last brother dream and decides to live and get treatment...isn't she now without insurance since she quit her job? I wonder if the show will address that or just gloss over it. I hope they don't have Gary marry her to get her on his insurance.

[HazelEyes4325]

1 minute ago, TOWTooMuchTV said:

Just a random thought, but assuming Maggie has an epiphany after her last brother dream and decides to live and get treatment...isn't she now without insurance since she quit her job? I wonder if the show will address that or just gloss over it. I hope they don't have Gary marry her to get her on his insurance.

My guess t is that they'll just gloss over it.  I mean, they sort of glossed over Jon's will, Jon's life insurance, why Ashley is still working for Jon now that he's been dead for a month...

[WhosThatGirl]

16 minutes ago, HazelEyes4325 said:

Correct.  I was referring to Regina (and Rome).  The trope is well known and tired and I'm very disappointed to see it perpetuated here in this show.  Both characters (and actors) deserve much better.

Yeah, it is quite bad that Rome and Regina actually had stories and now.. they don’t. Unless their stories are tired to the other characters.

And almost a week later and I’m still flabbergasted with the terrible line they gave Katherine “and those were my friends...” ugh. No they are not!!!! Not in the slightest. They weren’t even good at pretending to be your friends when they didn’t know your husband was having an affair. They barely tolerated you and spoke badly of you. That was a real bad line.

There was a moment in the episode before this where Gary saw Katherine in the bar with Nathan and he told her “I really hope you win” about her case but implying something else that made me think maybe the show will start building the friendships

with her and everyone. That I would like to see. More so than the context that the show seems that despite the affair, Eddie is such a nice great guy. Ugh. 

Edited December 4, 2018 by WhosThatGirl

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, TOWTooMuchTV said:

Just a random thought, but assuming Maggie has an epiphany after her last brother dream and decides to live and get treatment...isn't she now without insurance since she quit her job? I wonder if the show will address that or just gloss over it. I hope they don't have Gary marry her to get her on his insurance.

I’m sure they will gloss over it but if they wanted to handle it realistically she would be on disability leave rather than actually quitting. 

[TOWTooMuchTV]

7 minutes ago, Dani said:

I’m sure they will gloss over it but if they wanted to handle it realistically she would be on disability leave rather than actually quitting. 

That would be more realistic but I definitely took it as quitting the way the woman in the office said "doesn't work here any more," plus if Maggie had no intention of living long enough to ever go back to work, there would be no point in taking a leave. More satisfying for her to just cut the tie and walk away.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, TOWTooMuchTV said:

That would be more realistic but I definitely took it as quitting the way the woman in the office said "doesn't work here any more," plus if Maggie had no intention of living long enough to ever go back to work, there would be no point in taking a leave. More satisfying for her to just cut the tie and walk away.

I had the same impression but there is a little bit of wiggle room in the highly unlikely event they decide to address it later. She would still need insurance even if she does not receive treatment to cover hospice. Taking leave would be the smart think to do even if she never planned on returning. 

[auntiemel]

7 hours ago, Shorty2007 said:

...I have already watched it three times since it aired last week.

....I may watch the episode a few more times....

I honestly think you're devoting far more time to this show than the writers are.

[debraran]

8 hours ago, auntiemel said:

I honestly think you're devoting far more time to this show than the writers are.

I agree! Do they discuss this at all? It could have eclipsed the This is Us hullabaloo with some well written scripts with people not having 18 year old issues at 40.

I wasn't even thinking about Ashley working, how do they pay for things in this show, lol. I guess everyone had a great salary and why if Jon jumped waiting for the hammer to fall, it hasn't fallen? He was on the phone with someone and felt "this was it" but Ashley doesn't seem bothered by it, going to parties, sleeping with Gary. And I can't figure out why they made 43 year old Delilah pregnant? Babies are never good plot devices and if they have her lose it, it's even more tripe. It's not This is Us, but the mystery of Jack's Vietnam era is Jon's, Kate's pregnant and high risk and so is Delilah, Kevin had addiction issues after dad's death, Eddie's battling his own demons 

I hope Rome gets more time with Regina and doesn't just have to say "illuminating things" to Maggie about her brother in the car. He's too smart to be chasing her as a therapist and I hope they have better writing about his fight with depression and talking to his parents about their issues with it.  They touched on that but it fell flat to Maggie's problems. Honestly a good psychologist would have helped Maggie understand her feelings much better than any of her new friends.

Previews show Gary talking to Ashley about Jon, I have a feeling it will be crumbs and strange looks on Ashley's face but I'm hoping for more. They can save this show from being silly, just because viewers will accept it, (like reality TV) doesn't mean you can't have a quality show.

Edited December 4, 2018 by debraran

[ElectricBoogaloo]

9 hours ago, TOWTooMuchTV said:

Just a random thought, but assuming Maggie has an epiphany after her last brother dream and decides to live and get treatment...isn't she now without insurance since she quit her job? I wonder if the show will address that or just gloss over it. I hope they don't have Gary marry her to get her on his insurance.

She could go on FMLA which would allow her to keep her insurance. If she was set on quitting her job, she could go on COBRA. Those are options if she was employed by the hospital. If she was contracted by the hospital or working for herself, then she could keep whatever insurance she was already paying for on her own.

[alexvillage]

48 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

She could go on FMLA which would allow her to keep her insurance. If she was set on quitting her job, she could go on COBRA. Those are options if she was employed by the hospital. If she was contracted by the hospital or working for herself, then she could keep whatever insurance she was already paying for on her own.

...but because we are talking about a TV show made for the upper middle class, she will not have a moment's worry about her insurance, or denied treatment, and will continue to eat well, dress amazingly - without even wearing the same clothes twice in a month, taking cabs to go everywhere, all her bills will be paid on time...

[Clanstarling]

13 hours ago, taurusrose said:

Never watched friends.  Could not stand the cast.  Ditto for thirtysomething and I've not drank the This Is Us kool-aid.  I'm finding this show incredibly tiresome.  They have some good plots, i.e. Maggie's refusal to take chemo, Rome's depression, Grace's role in the group dynamic, but they insist on boiling it down to simplistic, soap opera tropes.  Also, cannot stand the Eddie and Delilah storyline.  Puh-lese.  I want to slap either one or both of them every time they appear on screen.  I'm really tired of Ashley and her sketchy antics.  I don't like Gary at all.  He needs to stand down. I don't know how much longer I will be able to watch this crap.

That's the essence of the problem - good ideas, but the emotional journeys and group dynamics which would have been impacted by Jon's death are ignored pretty much entirely, when they could have been fascinating. I've seen shows make smaller moments more emotionally interesting and satisfying. It is frustrating to see that the building blocks are there, but they just lay there as a backdrop to on screen drama.

[HazelEyes4325]

19 hours ago, auntiemel said:

I honestly think you're devoting far more time to this show than the writers are.

No doubt.  It kind of feels like Nash or someone found this "recipe" for the show (probably on NBC on Tuesday nights...) and they are just going through the motions to try to replicate it so that the "dish" looks just like the picture on the recipe.  There are some shows where I wonder if the writer of episode x had ever actually seen or read episode x-1 or x-2 or what not.  Usually, that happens in shows where the episodes are more self-contained (like a procedural, for example), but this episode really felt like it had fallen into the same trap.

 

On 12/1/2018 at 8:14 AM, Scarlett45 said:

I think Delilah doesn’t want to be known as the woman who not only cheated on her husband but got pregnant by another man (the same way it’s one thing for a man to cheat on his spouse but to get his mistress pregnant is an entirely different thing).

I also think she wants the social support of being a pregnant widow rather than a pregnant side chick of her husband’s friend. Of course the adults will figure it out shortly, but it’s not a shocking idea that Delilah would be sleeping with both Eddie and Jon- Jon was her husband. Eddie was sleeping with both Delilah and Katherine. 

1

I also think that there is some part of Delilah that realizes that raising a baby on her own, along with a tween and teen, is going to be hard--even if she has a comfortable life.  I'm not saying I think the baby is Jon's, but I'm saying the show hasn't really given me a reason to believe it is Eddie's other than Delilah changing her mind and telling him.  When this baby is born (eye roll, ugh...), she's going to have a lot of support from her friends and at least one will be sure to be there more than anyone else.

That one is, of course, Gary who seems to be everyone's fun uncle.  

Oh, and Eddie.  Eddie will be there because he *knows the secret* and will be the one who Delilah will hold responsible for being the "father figure" when Gary is being too fun with the kids.  And, you know what, if Eddie decides to maybe try to reconcile with his out in the open family or--gasp--finds a third woman to sleep with, Delilah has the perfect ammunition to reel him back in.

That's one way it could go--and it doesn't depend on who actually is the father, just who Eddie thinks is the father.  It could also play out that it is Eddie's, there is some melodramatic reveal, everyone wrings their hands for an episode, and then they have brunch in the next episode.  

It could go either way, but I would put money on way over the other.

[Shorty2007]

11 hours ago, auntiemel said:

I honestly think you're devoting far more time to this show than the writers are.

You think so? I'll take that as a compliment. 

I know this may not be the best show on the planet, but I still like it, and look forwards to seeing it every week; even if the writing isn't really the best. But I have always heard that anything can happen on TV. Even if that means a 43 year old can conceive a baby.

[possibilities]

That flash of anger on Katherine's face when she heard Delilah was pregnant-- and then Gina told her the baby's was Jon's, and Katherine relaxed and became sympathetic.... that moment was (1) well-acted, and (2) a preview of things to come, I think.

[smartymarty]

16 hours ago, WhosThatGirl said:

And almost a week later and I’m still flabbergasted with the terrible line they gave Katherine “and those were my friends...” ugh. No they are not!!!! Not in the slightest. They weren’t even good at pretending to be your friends when they didn’t know your husband was having an affair. They barely tolerated you and spoke badly of you. That was a real bad line.

I thought that was kind of sarcasm, like "yeah, these people are my excuse for friends." They haven't shown us that she has anyone else in her life. She just works and is stuck with Eddie's friends.

[Gothish520]

9 hours ago, Shorty2007 said:

You think so? I'll take that as a compliment. 

I know this may not be the best show on the planet, but I still like it, and look forwards to seeing it every week; even if the writing isn't really the best. But I have always heard that anything can happen on TV. Even if that means a 43 year old can conceive a baby.

I agree with you, I like this show a lot and also look forward to it every week. I scoff at the notion that tv has to be realistic - please. I'm nodding off at the thought. And honestly, I've found things in nearly every character that I can relate to in at least some little way. The fun part is watching how the characters act and react, be it realistic or not.

But actually, 43-year-olds have and will continue to conceive. That's not fiction. My paternal grandmother was in her early forties when she had her last child, which is how I have an aunt who is younger than me by a year. 

9 hours ago, possibilities said:

That flash of anger on Katherine's face when she heard Delilah was pregnant-- and then Gina told her the baby's was Jon's, and Katherine relaxed and became sympathetic.... that moment was (1) well-acted, and (2) a preview of things to come, I think.

Totally agree. Grace Park really sold that. And I think Katherine believed her because Regina really believes it's Jon's. And if I were Katherine, I'd be thinking ha, so Delilah and Jon were still sleeping together, guess things weren't that hot and heavy with her and Eddie, etc etc, and I would probably take some weird satisfaction in that.

Oh my, the crap is going to hit the fan when the truth comes out!

[debraran]

6 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

I agree with you, I like this show a lot and also look forward to it every week. I scoff at the notion that tv has to be realistic - please. I'm nodding off at the thought. And honestly, I've found things in nearly every character that I can relate to in at least some little way. The fun part is watching how the characters act and react, be it realistic or not.

But actually, 43-year-olds have and will continue to conceive. That's not fiction. My paternal grandmother was in her early forties when she had her last child, which is how I have an aunt who is younger than me by a year. 

Totally agree. Grace Park really sold that. And I think Katherine believed her because Regina really believes it's Jon's. And if I were Katherine, I'd be thinking ha, so Delilah and Jon were still sleeping together, guess things weren't that hot and heavy with her and Eddie, etc etc, and I would probably take some weird satisfaction in that.

Oh my, the crap is going to hit the fan when the truth comes out!

I worked with a woman who had 3 children , 40-43! My mom had my brother at 40 but it is more likely to not happen and with Deliliah you were thinking she would have been using birth control.

I don't know how it will be found out, but the baby, if born, will probably need a blood transfusion and Eddie has the more unusual blood type or somethign that will "out " him. I just feel it's been done SO often, it's tired.

The drama with Theo, I am thinking also, it has to do with Katherine and Eddie and child care. I don't know how much more time she would have to give being partner, she's not home much now, but she knew she was track for that. I know many lawyers, some wanted the big salary and working 9-9, but many didn't. She wasn't blind being married, having Theo and working. It's not like this was never a possibility and that Eddie would always be working 9-5.  Time will tell, but it's a good thing, Theo is so cute, he's a break from the bad writing, but I actually like him with Gary vs Eddie.  : )

Edited December 5, 2018 by debraran

[HazelEyes4325]

15 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

But actually, 43-year-olds have and will continue to conceive. That's not fiction. My paternal grandmother was in her early forties when she had her last child, which is how I have an aunt who is younger than me by a year. 

 

I don't think anyone finds this pregnancy unrealistic because Delilah is 43 (both of my grandmothers had children in their 40s, one at 43 and one at 45).  What many people, myself, find unrealistic is that Delilah would be so careless, given her situation and resources, to allow herself to get pregnant--as was hashed out in the 1.6 thread.  

But the realistic angle of this is one that I'm stuck on.  This is a "realistic" show--there are no superheroes or monster or whatnot--these are real people living lives that, supposedly, viewers should be able to relate to.  Because of that, I expect realism.  No, I don't need episodes about people doing their taxes or running errands, but if there is a plot point that can't conceivably happen without a completely nonsensical setup, it's going to pull me completely out of the show.  Delilah's pregnancy is one of those things.  Yes, a 43-year-old woman can get pregnant.  No, it makes no sense for a 43-year-old woman who was having an affair with her husband's best friend to not take steps to prevent a pregnancy.  Bringing it back to this episode for another example, I cannot find a way to Katherine at that menu tasting.  Why the hell would Regina invite Katherine knowing that Katherine's husband (who would be in attendance) cheated on her with the co-owner of the restaurant, who will also be there?  Why the hell would Katherine even consider attending?  Why the hell would everyone else be okay with this?  It's crap like this that is digging the hole even deeper for this show.

[Shorty2007]

8 minutes ago, HazelEyes4325 said:

I don't think anyone finds this pregnancy unrealistic because Delilah is 43 (both of my grandmothers had children in their 40s, one at 43 and one at 45).  What many people, myself, find unrealistic is that Delilah would be so careless, given her situation and resources, to allow herself to get pregnant--as was hashed out in the 1.6 thread.  

 

Sometimes you can do everything right but still end up with this result. Sometimes you can take the necessary steps needed, like for instance you could use things like contraceptives, but maybe they were not effective or something; and not everybody takes birth control pills. So this is still realistic. 

[smartymarty]

10 hours ago, debraran said:

The drama with Theo, I am thinking also, it has to do with Katherine and Eddie and child care.

You reminded me of another quibble. A prior episode had a big child care issue when Eddie apparently had to do sound checks all day while Katherine had to go into the office last minute too. Gosh, who would watch Theo?!? Maggie and Gary were apparently the only possible baby-sitters. So when Eddie, Katherine, Gary and Maggie all attended the dinner, who was watching Theo?

[HazelEyes4325]

1 hour ago, Shorty2007 said:

 

Sometimes you can do everything right but still end up with this result. Sometimes you can take the necessary steps needed, like for instance you could use things like contraceptives, but maybe they were not effective or something; and not everybody takes birth control pills. So this is still realistic. 

And, if the condom broke (as they claimed), you could hightail it down to get Plan B if there was *any* chance of your husband's best friend getting you pregnant.  The whole thing is hard to believe, but that is the point where it all goes out the window.  I can't think of any woman, in any situation, who go "hmm, oh well!  I guess we'll have to see how that turns out!" if a condom broke during sex. There is no way I can see that as realistic and I find it more than a little offensive to women for a male writer to think that any woman would behave so irresponsibly.  

If Nash needed an oopsie pregnancy, there were many other (much more believable) ways to achieve that.

Edited December 5, 2018 by HazelEyes4325

[Shorty2007]

4 minutes ago, HazelEyes4325 said:

And, if the condom broke (as they claimed), you could hightail it down to get Plan B if there was *any* chance of your husband's best friend getting you pregnant.  The whole thing is a hard thing to believe, but that is the point where it all goes out the window.  I can't think of any woman, in any situation, who go "hmm, oh well!  I guess we'll have to see how that turns out!" if a condom broke during sex. There is no way I can see that as realistic.

 

I am just going to give one final thought on this subject, then I'll be done with this topic. Yah, sure. You could have a 'Plan B', but even if you did use precaution, sometimes, accidents still happen. Plus this storyline is needed for the tv show that still has its 'realistic' qualities. That's my final thought on this.

Now, to get ready for tonight's episode, and I encourage everyone to join me.

[Gothish520]

35 minutes ago, HazelEyes4325 said:

And, if the condom broke (as they claimed), you could hightail it down to get Plan B if there was *any* chance of your husband's best friend getting you pregnant.  The whole thing is hard to believe, but that is the point where it all goes out the window.  I can't think of any woman, in any situation, who go "hmm, oh well!  I guess we'll have to see how that turns out!" if a condom broke during sex. There is no way I can see that as realistic and I find it more than a little offensive to women for a male writer to think that any woman would behave so irresponsibly.  

If Nash needed an oopsie pregnancy, there were many other (much more believable) ways to achieve that.

There are absolutely people in this world who are that irresponsible, that cavalier, or who just think what's the possibility? It could be that Delilah figured it wasn't likely and maybe things would work out. It could be that there was a part of her that secretly hoped she would get pregnant. I'm not a Delilah hater, but she is definitely ruled by her emotions and doesn't always think clearly.

[HazelEyes4325]

26 minutes ago, Gothish520 said:

There are absolutely people in this world who are that irresponsible, that cavalier, or who just think what's the possibility? It could be that Delilah figured it wasn't likely and maybe things would work out. It could be that there was a part of her that secretly hoped she would get pregnant. I'm not a Delilah hater, but she is definitely ruled by her emotions and doesn't always think clearly.

Keep in mind Delilah's situation.  She is cheating on her husband with his best friend.  She's not having sex with her husband, she's not a self-sufficient single woman who might be able to afford single motherhood.  If a pregnancy were to result from her affair it would not only wreck her life but also Eddie's, Jon's, Sophie's, Danny's, Katherine's, and Theo's (not to mention putting their entire friend group in a very bad situation).  Having an affair is one thing--no one will find out about it, right?  A pregnancy is something else.  Let's say Jon didn't die and Delilah was telling the truth that they were not having sex, how would that have played out?

I'm not a Delilah fan, but I can't see how she could be that clueless, careless, selfish.  Or maybe I just have more faith in her than D.J. Nash does.

Edited December 5, 2018 by HazelEyes4325

[Guest]

5 hours ago, HazelEyes4325 said:

I don't think anyone finds this pregnancy unrealistic because Delilah is 43 (both of my grandmothers had children in their 40s, one at 43 and one at 45).  What many people, myself, find unrealistic is that Delilah would be so careless, given her situation and resources, to allow herself to get pregnant--as was hashed out in the 1.6 thread.  

But the realistic angle of this is one that I'm stuck on.  This is a "realistic" show--there are no superheroes or monster or whatnot--these are real people living lives that, supposedly, viewers should be able to relate to.  Because of that, I expect realism.  No, I don't need episodes about people doing their taxes or running errands, but if there is a plot point that can't conceivably happen without a completely nonsensical setup, it's going to pull me completely out of the show.  Delilah's pregnancy is one of those things.  Yes, a 43-year-old woman can get pregnant.  No, it makes no sense for a 43-year-old woman who was having an affair with her husband's best friend to not take steps to prevent a pregnancy.  Bringing it back to this episode for another example, I cannot find a way to Katherine at that menu tasting.  Why the hell would Regina invite Katherine knowing that Katherine's husband (who would be in attendance) cheated on her with the co-owner of the restaurant, who will also be there?  Why the hell would Katherine even consider attending?  Why the hell would everyone else be okay with this?  It's crap like this that is digging the hole even deeper for this show.

Yep. They really would have been better off to leave out the condom breaking line and just had Delilah be surprised and shocked. A 43 year old woman who gets pregnant because a condom breaks while having sex with her husbands best friend is just an idiot. 

Grace Park is 44 and Christina Moses is 40 and if either of their characters were to become pregnant I wouldn’t find it unrealistic. 

The show tries to be realistic and fails because no one is looking at these things critically. It is a series of what ifs and wouldn’t it be cool ifs strung together. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

16 hours ago, Shorty2007 said:

Sometimes you can do everything right but still end up with this result. Sometimes you can take the necessary steps needed, like for instance you could use things like contraceptives, but maybe they were not effective or something; and not everybody takes birth control pills. So this is still realistic. 

My friend was on double birth control methods and she still got pregnant at the ripe old age of 41. There was no "oops, the condom broke" sign that would have told her to get Plan B either. She was shocked when she found out she was pregnant because she was always careful about her birth control (mostly because she and her husband were not planning to have kids).

Someone else I know had an oopsie pregnancy when she was 40. She was on the pill.

No method of birth control is 100% effective ("THEY SHOULD PUT THAT ON THE BOX!") so I'm never surprised when people accidentally get pregnant.

[smartymarty]

I actually don't believe people when they say it was an accident. The pill and condoms are 100% effective when used as directed. I still believe that Delilah should have expressed some surprise.

[doodlebug]

38 minutes ago, smartymarty said:

I actually don't believe people when they say it was an accident. The pill and condoms are 100% effective when used as directed. I still believe that Delilah should have expressed some surprise.

No method except abstinence is 100% effective.  However, the pill, when taken properly is around 99% effective. Condoms, when used with spermicide are around 90% effective. A woman who is taking the pill correctly is not really going to get any additional pregnancy prevention benefit from adding condoms although they help prevent STD’s too.  However, many women mess up and don’t take their pills properly.  If that’s the case, condoms will add some contraceptive benefit.

Delilah, who was apparently only using condoms, should’ve had Plan B on the shelf at all times since condoms break fairly often.

As for her justification that Jon had left the marriage two years earlier, what a crock!  Nobody leaves until they physically separate; and it never excuses infidelity.  If she felt the marriage was over, then she needed to formalize it before screwing another man, especially a married one who is friends with her husband.

[debraran]

2 hours ago, doodlebug said:

No method except abstinence is 100% effective.  However, the pill, when taken properly is around 99% effective. Condoms, when used with spermicide are around 90% effective. A woman who is taking the pill correctly is not really going to get any additional pregnancy prevention benefit from adding condoms although they help prevent STD’s too.  However, many women mess up and don’t take their pills properly.  If that’s the case, condoms will add some contraceptive benefit.

Delilah, who was apparently only using condoms, should’ve had Plan B on the shelf at all times since condoms break fairly often.

As for her justification that Jon had left the marriage two years earlier, what a crock!  Nobody leaves until they physically separate; and it never excuses infidelity.  If she felt the marriage was over, then she needed to formalize it before screwing another man, especially a married one who is friends with her husband.

Amen to that !  My Gyn said "usually" patients don't want to admit they messed up the pill cycle but it happens, but most of the time, if taken correctly, the pill is pretty effective.

Not only screwing her husband's friend, but in HIS bed. Yuck.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

12 hours ago, smartymarty said:

I actually don't believe people when they say it was an accident. The pill and condoms are 100% effective when used as directed. I still believe that Delilah should have expressed some surprise.

Wow, that seems like a pretty strong statement to make. I'm pretty sure that the women who have to travel hours to reach an abortion clinic (especially in states with TRAP laws) would tell you that they did not get pregnant on purpose, as would the women who resort to dangerous alternative methods like coat hangers.

My mom did not intend to get pregnant again nine years after I was born, but she did, which threw a huge wrench into my family's plans to move 2000 miles away (we had to postpone the move for almost a year which was a huge pain in the ass for everyone, including my dad who had already accepted a job and had to fly back for monthly visits and for the birth of my sister).

I think it's entirely possible for Delilah to have accidentally gotten pregnant. I certainly don't think it was her master plan to get knocked up at the age of 43.

[HazelEyes4325]

6 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I think it's entirely possible for Delilah to have accidentally gotten pregnant. I certainly don't think it was her master plan to get knocked up at the age of 43.

 

Except, in this case, it's not quite the accidental pregnancy of faulty contraception.  Yeah, there was a condom.  And then the condom broke and Delilah, for whatever reason, made the decision not take the next step of getting plan B to ensure that there would not be a pregnancy.  

I totally get that birth control fails sometimes and even though there was a BC failure here, that is not the problem with the story.  The problem is that the show had Delilah make a choice that I don't think any woman in her position would make...and didn't give us any reason for it.  

*If* Eddie is the father (jury is still out on that) and it resulted from the broken condom incident, then Delilah isn't pregnant because BC failed.  She's pregnant because she made the decision to accept a pregnancy if it happened.

[Anela]

On 11/8/2018 at 1:28 PM, Bean421 said:

I'm so confused about how this group of people is SO invested in Maggie, a woman they've known for <6 months, and can't spare a thought for Katherine. 

I haven't watched this yet, but some people just have that way about them. She may also be some kind of subconscious Jon replacement, but it's weird that he and Katherine were supposedly so close, but the rest of them weren't (with her). 

[HazelEyes4325]

9 minutes ago, Anela said:

I haven't watched this yet, but some people just have that way about them. She may also be some kind of subconscious Jon replacement, but it's weird that he and Katherine were supposedly so close, but the rest of them weren't (with her). 

I can try and figure out a way for it to make sense for Maggie.  She's a strangely written character, but--to the other characters--she seems like a very nice person.  She was also introduced to them under awkward circumstances (as a "date" to a funeral) which probably led the rest of the group to try to be more welcoming to her than they would have been in Gary had just brought her to coffee or something.  And, how handy when dealing with people going through grief, SHE'S A THERAPIST!  And she's practically offering free therapy! On the other side, Regina just seems to be a friendly person to everyone and Delilah was basking in being the center of attention.*  I don't think it is a usual thing, but I can do the mental gymnastics to make it work.

What I can't make work in the Katherine situation.  Part of the problem is that Nash did one hell of a retcon on her in the space of just a few episodes (I'm wondering if the character was essentially rewritten once Park came aboard?)  But the fact was established that she was on the outside of the group and that the only person who welcomed her was Jon, and he's now dead..and now she's a part of the core friend group?  It makes no sense, no matter how much I try to make it work.

*Yes, I'm being snarky towards Delilah.  She deserves snark.

[sinkwriter]

Quote

I can try and figure out a way for it to make sense for Maggie.  She's a strangely written character, but--to the other characters--she seems like a very nice person.  She was also introduced to them under awkward circumstances (as a "date" to a funeral) which probably led the rest of the group to try to be more welcoming to her than they would have been in Gary had just brought her to coffee or something.  And, how handy when dealing with people going through grief, SHE'S A THERAPIST!  And she's practically offering free therapy!

 

This is actually the issue I have with Maggie.  She's a therapist and she can't see why Gary's trying SO hard to get her to accept treatment? It's not selfishness, it's not about him not wanting to lose her (at least, not entirely about that). I think deep down for him it's about fear. He had cancer, he could have died, so the idea that someone else is choosing not to fight for their life has got to be terrifying for him. Especially if his own cancer ever comes back. And then to see ALL of his friends know about her decision and ALL of them side with her? (I'm not including Ashley - she's not really a friend in that group.) Seriously though, how is he supposed to feel about that? 

Frankly, I'm surprised it's taken him this long to have a meltdown about it. It's got to be really scary for him. And yes, this isn't about him, it's about Maggie's health and he doesn't get to decide what she does with her body. But even if she weren't a therapist, it doesn't take a genius to see that the topic in general is so deeply personal to him, he simply cannot be unbiased about it. It's scary and upsetting.

So for her -- and all the rest of them -- to be insensitive to that is really frustrating for me to watch. In this particular case, I'm with Gary. The "why" behind his behavior is really compelling to me.

And he was right -- he doesn't know her at all. And part of that is her own fault. She yells at him for bringing up her brother's name, but she won't share anything with him. He's tried many times, but she avoids. Weirdly, she's stayed friends with all of his friends, she's gotten to know all of them, she's gotten to know Gary and his stories, but she shares nothing of herself. That's supposed to be his fault? I just can't side with her on this.

[Gothish520]

On 12/7/2018 at 10:39 AM, HazelEyes4325 said:

Except, in this case, it's not quite the accidental pregnancy of faulty contraception.  Yeah, there was a condom.  And then the condom broke and Delilah, for whatever reason, made the decision not take the next step of getting plan B to ensure that there would not be a pregnancy.  

I totally get that birth control fails sometimes and even though there was a BC failure here, that is not the problem with the story.  The problem is that the show had Delilah make a choice that I don't think any woman in her position would make...and didn't give us any reason for it.  

*If* Eddie is the father (jury is still out on that) and it resulted from the broken condom incident, then Delilah isn't pregnant because BC failed.  She's pregnant because she made the decision to accept a pregnancy if it happened.

I agree that Delilah passively chose to accept the pregnancy. Also, Plan b is not like popping an aspirin. Hormone pills are not fun and not all women can take them without serious side effects.

[doodlebug]

2 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

I agree that Delilah passively chose to accept the pregnancy. Also, Plan b is not like popping an aspirin. Hormone pills are not fun and not all women can take them without serious side effects.

I think having a baby fathered by your husband’s best friend is a far more serious side effect.  Plan B involves taking a single pill containing progesterone only.  The ‘side effects’ of that seem far preferable to an unplanned pregnancy.  What if Jon hadn’t died?  If Delilah is so certain he cannot possibly be the father, he surely would’ve been suspicious.  Remember, he was still alive when the condom broke.

[HazelEyes4325]

42 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

I think having a baby fathered by your husband’s best friend is a far more serious side effect.  Plan B involves taking a single pill containing progesterone only.  The ‘side effects’ of that seem far preferable to an unplanned pregnancy.  What if Jon hadn’t died?  If Delilah is so certain he cannot possibly be the father, he surely would’ve been suspicious.  Remember, he was still alive when the condom broke.

 

I think you win the thread.

Yeah, there is a difference between a "side effect" and blowing up your own life and the lives of everyone in your family and friend group.  Between that and a stomach ache and some dizziness, the choice shouldn't be hard.

[Gothish520]

58 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

I think having a baby fathered by your husband’s best friend is a far more serious side effect.  Plan B involves taking a single pill containing progesterone only.  The ‘side effects’ of that seem far preferable to an unplanned pregnancy.  What if Jon hadn’t died?  If Delilah is so certain he cannot possibly be the father, he surely would’ve been suspicious.  Remember, he was still alive when the condom broke.

True enough, but I don't think Delilah is all that broken up about being pregnant. If Jon were still around she would certainly have a lot of explaining to do. She and Eddie definitely were not thinking straight, probably for a long time. This is what happens when you let your emotions get the best of you.

ETA: the difference between my perspective and the perspective of others is that I don't think that Eddie and Delilah are pieces of crap for screwing up royally. It probably bears repeating that cheating is awful and horrible and if it ever happened in my relationship I can't imagine how I would react. But still, I don't hate them. They are fallible human beings and they made some big mistakes.

Edited December 9, 2018 by Gothish520

[possibilities]

The thing about Maggie is: she's dying.  She doesn't want to deal with Gary's issues, she just wants to live out her remaining days in the way she considers her most peaceful. She's not his therapist. It's not her job to take care of Gary. She didn't ask him to take care of her, either. She just asked him to butt out if he couldn't go along with it. It's kind of the minimum you can ask of anyone.

It's harder to remember she's dying when we see her going running, and generally living the life of a healthy, active person. If she were looking like hell and lying in bed with hospice nurses by her side, her position would be obvious and Gary's behavior would be seen as monstrous. But the bottom line is: he needs to deal with his feelings and issues and not dump them on Maggie.