Mad Men

[MagnusHex]

Mad Men 3x13: Shut the Door, Have a Seat

"Very good; happy Christmas."

I really liked Jared Harris as Moriarty in Game of Shadows, perhaps even more than Andrew Scott as I prefer Harris' more traditional take on the character than Andrew's postmodern take. Thus, I'm glad that Harris has one of my favorite laugh-out-loud lines this episode as quoted above. Pryce has won me over with his smugness as he quits. Before, I was rather lukewarm towards him as he still lacked that distinctly interesting personality, coming off like a bland bureaucrat and bean counter. But I think this episode nailed his Englishman wit just right.

The theme for this episode seems to be a fresh start for everyone: Don, Roger, Burt, Lane, Peggy, Pete, Betty and her kids. It's about time Don and Betts got that divorce. I find soap opera adulteries very dull and tedious. Perhaps it's because I'm single and doesn't understand the sacred vows of marriage, but between Carmela in The Sopranos and Betty over here, I'm not shedding any tears over Don the cheater finally getting his comeuppance, PERMANENTLY this time. Though to be fair to Don, Betts was no innocent either and was almost aggravating enough as a mother (I'm glad Don kinda acknowledges this, "God knows they'll be better off without you") and just generally a sheltered woman (especially in regards to her views towards the civil rights movement) that I almost sided with Don if he wasn't acting like such a hypocrite about adultery, physically threatening his wife and calling her a whore (I love his speech with Peggy though; him and Pegs are among my favorite relationship in this show). I know shows like this tend to have a "Skylar" that everyone hates, and that hate is often unwarranted, but it's not even about hating the nagging wife in this case; I like Trudy and Pete's marriage a lot more, in contrast, because they actually feel like partners in love, not just putting up a farce for appearances. I'm also concerned what kind of woman Sally would grow up to be under Betty's... uhm, "guidance."

Speaking of Breaking Bad, it lost the Emmy to this show in Outstanding Drama Series of 2010. It's a tough draw between the two shows tbh; I like both shows obviously for their own merits, with me recently offering a 10/10 score for Half-Measures, but if you were to ask me to choose, I'd have probably went for BB just because of the number of top-tier writing in BB season 3 (Fly, anyone?). I was, to be perfectly frank, rather bored throughout most of MM season 3. I know, I know, that's because I don't have the patience or tenacity to appreciate the show. But for what it's worth, I do think MM deserved that Emmy win. The examination of the shifting culture in the '60s has a very prestigious air to it compared to "Flawed drugdealer husband continues to spread his chaos wherever he goes."

But I have to tell you, there's a reason why I didn't feel compelled to write anything about any of season 3's episodes until episode 9, Wee Small Hours, when the episode and those that followed tackled themes and topics I was more interested in (like homophobia, the Birmingham bombing, the civil rights movement and the JFK assassination). Don and Betty's petty bickering was not my favorite subject matter. In hindsight, I kinda get what Weiner was saying about Betty in her attempt to gain control over her marriage by entertaining the notion of cheating on Don the same way he cheated on her. But Henry Francis just feels so slimy. He looks to be in his 50s and he's hitting on a younger married, PREGNANT woman like Betty. He just feels kinda gross. But anyway, it all just feels very soapy, Don/Betty/Henry's love triangle, almost to an eye-rolling level. And that dull fundraiser subplot too, yeesh. White suburban lives. I'll never understand the appeal.

But anyway, that's the end to this season. Three down, four to go. With a fresh start for SCDP, would the road ahead be better for everyone involved? Knowing this show, probably not.

Edited January 31 by MagnusHex

[Ohiopirate02]

28 minutes ago, MagnusHex said:

But I have to tell you, there's a reason why I didn't feel compelled to write anything about any of season 3's episodes until episode 9, Wee Small Hours, when the episode and those that followed tackled themes and topics I was more interested in (like homophobia, the Birmingham bombing, the civil rights movement and the JFK assassination). Don and Betty's petty bickering was not my favorite subject matter. In hindsight, I kinda get what Weiner was saying about Betty in her attempt to gain control over her marriage by entertaining the notion of cheating on Don the same way he cheated on her. But Henry Francis just feels so slimy. He looks to be in his 50s and he's hitting on a younger married, PREGNANT woman like Betty. He just feels kinda gross. But anyway, it all just feels very soapy, Don/Betty/Henry's love triangle, almost to an eye-rolling level. And that dull fundraiser subplot too, yeesh. White suburban lives. I'll never understand the appeal.

I always found the female characters on Mad Men to be way more fascinating than their male counterparts.  I loved how the show explored how they made their way in the patriarchal world they lived in trying to find love or professional success or just contentment.  And Betty is no exception.  Betty knows her marriage to Don was over there's only so much a person can take with the constant infidelity plus the whole Dick Whitman thing after all, but Betty does not have it in her to be a Helen Bishop. Which I cannot blame Betty here. She's educated, but that education was for show, and her work experience is nil. She also knows what she will lose by becoming a divorcee beyond Don's paycheck.  Divorcees are labeled suspect by all the wives in suburbia, and that label goes with Betty if she did decide to move closer to her brother and his family. She's not going to divorce Don until she knows she has somewhere and someone else to go, and then she meets Henry Francis.  There's a spark, so Betty begins to investigate him to see if he could be the answer she's looking for.  That fundraiser was Betty passive-aggressively pursuing Henry.  

[qtpye]

2 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I always found the female characters on Mad Men to be way more fascinating than their male counterparts.  I loved how the show explored how they made their way in the patriarchal world they lived in trying to find love or professional success or just contentment.  And Betty is no exception.  Betty knows her marriage to Don was over there's only so much a person can take with the constant infidelity plus the whole Dick Whitman thing after all, but Betty does not have it in her to be a Helen Bishop. Which I cannot blame Betty here. She's educated, but that education was for show, and her work experience is nil. She also knows what she will lose by becoming a divorcee beyond Don's paycheck.  Divorcees are labeled suspect by all the wives in suburbia, and that label goes with Betty if she did decide to move closer to her brother and his family. She's not going to divorce Don until she knows she has somewhere and someone else to go, and then she meets Henry Francis.  There's a spark, so Betty begins to investigate him to see if he could be the answer she's looking for.  That fundraiser was Betty passive-aggressively pursuing Henry.  

I will spoiler tag this because @MagnusHex has not gotten there yet.

Spoiler

 

I think a lot of people had resentment that Betty, being what was considered the most desirable in a woman of her time, actually found another man that wanted to take care of her and her 3 children. Even though he was older, he turned out to be a much better husband for her.

She got to live the socialite life of her dreams and the children were cared for by servants and boarding school. I mean we all know that Betty never really enjoyed being a mother.

Her second husband also loved her for her and did not blink an eye when she gained weight. Though, he also loved having her on his arm 'knowing every man in the room wanted her". Her life was actually much better after Don and you can see she sort of eventually develops a type of inner peace.

 

[Ohiopirate02]

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

I will spoiler tag this because @MagnusHex has not gotten there yet.

  Hide contents

 

I think a lot of people had resentment that Betty, being what was considered the most desirable in a woman of her time, actually found another man that wanted to take care of her and her 3 children. Even though he was older, he turned out to be a much better husband for her.

She got to live the socialite life of her dreams and the children were cared for by servants and boarding school. I mean we all know that Betty never really enjoyed being a mother.

Her second husband also loved her for her and did not blink an eye when she gained weight. Though, he also loved having her on his arm 'knowing every man in the room wanted her". Her life was actually much better after Don and you can see she sort of eventually develops a type of inner peace.

 

Also replying in spoiler--

Spoiler

Henry was flawed, but he did the one thing that Don was incapable of--see Betty as a whole person warts and all, and love her for it.  Don just cannot love his romantic partner once she reveals herself to be a person and not an ideal.  Of course, Don struggles with understanding this.  He thinks Betty fell out of love with him due to Dick Whitman and only that.  So what does he do when he's ready to settle down with Wife #2 #3, he tells Meghan about it before marrying her and thinks that will make this next marriage a success.  But, that marriage is doomed as soon as Meghan begins to climb out of the box Don puts her in.  And we see Don in the Season 5 finale getting ready to cheat on Meghan for the first time.  

 

[qtpye]

1 hour ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Also replying in spoiler--

  Hide contents

Henry was flawed, but he did the one thing that Don was incapable of--see Betty as a whole person warts and all, and love her for it.  Don just cannot love his romantic partner once she reveals herself to be a person and not an ideal.  Of course, Don struggles with understanding this.  He thinks Betty fell out of love with him due to Dick Whitman and only that.  So what does he do when he's ready to settle down with Wife #2 #3, he tells Meghan about it before marrying her and thinks that will make this next marriage a success.  But, that marriage is doomed as soon as Meghan begins to climb out of the box Don puts her in.  And we see Don in the Season 5 finale getting ready to cheat on Meghan for the first time.  

 

I totally agree.

Quote

Don thinks that all his problems will go away if he "pretends it never happens" Of course, this only further wounds him, and the ladies in his life often pay the price.

I loved the way Henry encouraged Betty to go back to school. This is something insecure Don would never do.

 

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

Mad Men 3x13: Shut the Door, Have a Seat

"Very good; happy Christmas."

I really liked Jared Harris as Moriarty in Game of Shadows, perhaps even more than Andrew Scott as I prefer Harris' more traditional take on the character than Andrew's postmodern take. Thus, I'm glad that Harris has one of my favorite laugh-out-loud lines this episode as quoted above. Pryce has won me over with his smugness as he quits. Before, I was rather lukewarm towards him as he still lacked that distinctly interesting personality, coming off like a bland bureaucrat and bean counter. But I think this episode nailed his Englishman wit just right.

Lane's another one of those characters who wins you over gradually in the background!

10 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

 I'm also concerned what kind of woman Sally would grow up to be under Betty's... uhm, "guidance."

Of course, she's still going to be. It's Don who's leaving, not Betty!

10 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

But Henry Francis just feels so slimy. He looks to be in his 50s and he's hitting on a younger married, PREGNANT woman like Betty. He just feels kinda gross.

It's a funny thing about Matt Weiner, that twice he has a character do something that he must not think is weird, but viewers have a hard time ever getting over--including me. First it's Glen Bishop walking in on Betty in the bathroom and not leaving, now it's Henry Francis hitting on a pregnant woman. It's so weird--and yet MW doesn't seem to think anything of it. 

I'm probably lucky when it comes to this show in that I often love stories about white suburban lives. When I was 12 I got really into John Cheever short stories for a summer which is...probably not that common. LOL. 

But in the end I can see why MW thought Henry was necessary--not for a love triangle or for the soapiness of it, imo, but just because Betty couldn't get divorced without having another marriage to go to. In a way, he's probably avoiding the soapy affair by having her marry a guy that she barely knows and never slept with. I remember at the time some people kept arguing that they must be spending a ton of time together off-screen and really did know each other and MW was like...nope, this is it. 

I also wound up reading a lot into Betty saying her favorite movie was Singin' in the Rain, an old-fashioned 50s musical that was also about big changes. For all that Betty really wasn't happy in the 50s, she's not so adaptable that she's ready to be on the progressive side of the 60s going forward.

[TheLastKidPicked]

On 1/29/2023 at 8:55 AM, MagnusHex said:

Little needs to be said about how the '60s and its societal changes are relevant to the show's themes involving feminism and civil rights, but I find it appropriate that Don and Roger - both men whose marriages are failing, their patriarchal status about to crumble down the road - are trying to placate everyone, telling them to enjoy the party and that it will be alright.

 

There are some very insightful posters on this thread, and I appreciate you very much!

The episode quoted above is a perfect example of what Mad Men does so well.  It shows the main characters with this unquestioned sense of entitlement.  A sense of,  "We middle aged white men are in charge of everything because that's the way it's supposed to be."

But as the years tick by, the feeling is starting to creep in:  "These good times can't last forever."

 

[qtpye]

1 hour ago, TheLastKidPicked said:

 

There are some very insightful posters on this thread, and I appreciate you very much!

The episode quoted above is a perfect example of what Mad Men does so well.  It shows the main characters with this unquestioned sense of entitlement.  A sense of,  "We middle aged white men are in charge of everything because that's the way it's supposed to be."

But as the years tick by, the feeling is starting to creep in:  "These good times can't last forever."

 

The funny part is that they were all absolutely miserable during those "good times" despite all their privilege.

[Ohiopirate02]

7 minutes ago, qtpye said:

The funny part is that they were all absolutely miserable during those "good times" despite all their privilege.

Everyone but Roger.  

[qtpye]

4 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Everyone but Roger.  

Weirdly, Roger actually seemed the most miserable during his second marriage.

[sistermagpie]

8 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Weirdly, Roger actually seemed the most miserable during his second marriage.

Kind of makes sense. First, because he did the worst thing he could do if he wanted to look or feel young, which was marry and actual young person. But also seeing how that didn't solve his problem probably made him feel a little lost and empty...until he dropped acid. LOL.

[Athena]

12 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Kind of makes sense. First, because he did the worst thing he could do if he wanted to look or feel young, which was marry and actual young person. But also seeing how that didn't solve his problem probably made him feel a little lost and empty...until he dropped acid. LOL.

Compared to the rest of the cast, Roger's emotional range was... well not exactly limited, but it wasn't as deep or as large as the others on the show. I don't mean this as a knock to the character or the actor who was perfect for the role.

Roger was the most privileged character on the show. He was brought up extremely rich. He was handsome and charismatic in all aspects of his life. He was the kind of person that got whatever he wanted without trying much. Compare him to Don: handsome and charismatic but deprived and traumatized as a kid. Or Pete: privileged but not nearly as charismatic or as good looking. Both characters had many struggles which the show followed.

Roger was miserable during the second marriage because it was probably one of the times in his life things weren't going his way and he had to contend with aging. That acid trip really helped.

I think he was also sad about his daughter abandoning the family and tried reconnecting with her. It wasn't his fault but he was at least self-reflective enough to try to be around for Joan's son. I am glad that Joan and him have retained a friendship over the years and at the end, she likely acknowledged that relationship would be emotionally beneficial for all parties. 

People like Roger exist and they get by e.g. a lot of celebs. It doesn't mean they don't work hard or have no feelings. It's just they got a much better deal from the get-go especially in the time where men still ran things (and in many places still do). It's really hard to hate Roger as a character but it's also hard to relate to him which is why a lot of his friends probably aren't true ones or they can't share their lives with him to the same level. I really did like his friendship with Don even though it was not always smooth, but Don of course had very few people who really knew him. For example, Roger considered Don one of his closest friends but Don's best friend was Anna and Peggy understood him better than Roger did.   

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Athena said:

Compared to the rest of the cast, Roger's emotional range was... well not exactly limited, but it wasn't as deep or as large as the others on the show. I don't mean this as a knock to the character or the actor who was perfect for the role.

It's funny, just recently I think some quote from Roger came up and someone I know who didn't watch the show made a comment about how whoever said that must have been angsty because it was Mad Men. And I was like no, because it was Roger. They kept searching for the darkness that was supposed to be underneath, like it was a burden being a white man at the time and...not really, because it's Roger. He really enjoyed being on top and knew how to have fun with his privilege.

4 hours ago, Athena said:

I think he was also sad about his daughter abandoning the family and tried reconnecting with her. It wasn't his fault but he was at least self-reflective enough to try to be around for Joan's son. I am glad that Joan and him have retained a friendship over the years and at the end, she likely acknowledged that relationship would be emotionally beneficial for all parties. 

Yes, the thing with Roger was he often didn't want bad things for people. I think he really was puzzled and saddened by Margaret. In some ways she's so much the opposite of him, always finding ways to be miserable when she could just be happy. 

But it's great how he really did still have growth over the series and I love that it looks like he's going to have a better relationship with Kevin. In general, I like the way the show does a good job of showing how good many of the changes of the 60s were, despite MW often being accused of much preferring the 50s. When characters were freed of strict expectations, they could find things that worked better for them and everyone else. 

4 hours ago, Athena said:

People like Roger exist and they get by e.g. a lot of celebs. It doesn't mean they don't work hard or have no feelings. It's just they got a much better deal from the get-go especially in the time where men still ran things (and in many places still do). It's really hard to hate Roger as a character but it's also hard to relate to him which is why a lot of his friends probably aren't true ones or they can't share their lives with him to the same level. I really did like his friendship with Don even though it was not always smooth, but Don of course had very few people who really knew him. For example, Roger considered Don one of his closest friends but Don's best friend was Anna and Peggy understood him better than Roger did.   

I seem to remember Vincent Kartheiser being asked about how his character had to really dislike Roger so often and whether that was hard and he said not at all, because if he just focused on how easy everything was for Roger etc., it was really easy for his character to resent him for it. It's like Ferris Bueller and his sister Jeannie!

[TheLastKidPicked]

On 2/14/2023 at 1:28 PM, qtpye said:

he funny part is that they were all absolutely miserable during those "good times" despite all their privilege.

 

On 2/15/2023 at 7:53 AM, Athena said:

Roger was miserable during the second marriage because it was probably one of the times in his life things weren't going his way and he had to contend with aging.

22 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

They kept searching for the darkness that was supposed to be underneath, like it was a burden being a white man at the time and...not really, because it's Roger. He really enjoyed being on top and knew how to have fun with his privilege.

 

Yes to each of you!  I can't take credit for this, because another poster on here made an observation that was very interesting.

The tread was about science fiction TV and Movies from the 1950's and 1960's.  The Twilight Zone type of shows.

A poster observed that a recurring theme was the main characters trying to get back to "a simpler time".  The comment made was  "Really?  It was really that hard to be a white male in the 1950s?"

 

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, TheLastKidPicked said:

A poster observed that a recurring theme was the main characters trying to get back to "a simpler time".  The comment made was  "Really?  It was really that hard to be a white male in the 1950s?"

 

It's amazing how many movies from the 50s are about what would absolutely be called Toxic Masculinity today! 

[TheLastKidPicked]

23 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

It's amazing how many movies from the 50s are about what would absolutely be called Toxic Masculinity today! 

 

We did a rewatch of Mad Men last year.  Now that we know about Harvey Weinstein and the Me Too movement, a rewatch hits differently.

During the original run, we (in our house, anyway) kept saying,  "Well, they were a product of their time.  It's just the way it was back then."

But fast forward to today, and a lot of those scenes are painful to watch.

 

Edited February 16 by TheLastKidPicked

[Athena]

16 hours ago, TheLastKidPicked said:

 

We did a rewatch of Mad Men last year.  Now that we know about Harvey Weinstein and the Me Too movement, a rewatch hits differently.

During the original run, we (in our house, anyway) kept saying,  "Well, they were a product of their time.  It's just the way it was back then."

But fast forward to today, and a lot of those scenes are painful to watch.

 

I think for me the show has always been slightly painful to watch for this exact reason and it's one of the reasons the show is good. It did not glamourize the time the same way as other media back then or even now. 

I say this as someone who really likes 1950s and 60s movies. I grew up with a them and they are portrayed as an idyllic time, but I have an interest in history. It was not a good time for many people and even if you were cis and white, you still had personal issues to go through as people have throughout history. Don, Peggy, Joan, Pete, Betty, and Sally's arcs all reflected that to varying degree.

Joan's arc is really hard to watch now. I couldn't rewatch a lot of her scenes with the other men especially her awful husband and the Jaguar storyline. I really like social history and the women on the show did tell their stories. They could have done more and it wasn't perfect, but it was well written.

[TheLastKidPicked]

On 2/17/2023 at 9:05 AM, Athena said:

I say this as someone who really likes 1950s and 60s movies. I grew up with a them and they are portrayed as an idyllic time, but I have an interest in history. It was not a good time for many people and even if you were cis and white, you still had personal issues to go through as people have throughout history. Don, Peggy, Joan, Pete, Betty, and Sally's arcs all reflected that to varying degree.

 

Very good point.  Back then, there was a theme of,  "I seem to have it all.  A good job, a good family, some savings in the bank.  So why am I not happy?"

 

 

[qtpye]

1 hour ago, TheLastKidPicked said:

 

Very good point.  Back then, there was a theme of,  "I seem to have it all.  A good job, a good family, some savings in the bank.  So why am I not happy?"

 

 

They invented mid-life crises.