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I liked the character of Joyce (Peggy’s friend) as well as the actor who played her..Zosia. Mamet.  I like what she brings to a role...not sure why. 

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42 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Camp can play anything in my opinion.  The role she was given on Mad Men WAS supposed to be like a younger Betty, but if they had given her Pare's role, she could have nailed the whole secretary/wanna be actress/good with kids/super sexy stuff easily.

 

Oh sure, I'm not saying she couldn't play it well, absolutely. I really liked her character, btw. She was physically more like a younger Betty, but I thought she had a clear personality. One that Don dismissed but I think would probably be really fun and would be more difficult for him to handle than Megan was. Of course, that doesn't mean she would have played Megan's part the same way.

But I can see why MW would never have cast her over somebody like JP. I think he'd think she was the wrong physical type--and he probably really did like the way JP acted too for that part. Somebody who looked like a second Betty would absolutely have worked, but I think MW really went into it with the non-Betty physical type in mind.

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1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

But I can see why MW would never have cast her over somebody like JP.

He was OBSESSED with JP.  

It is seriously creepy at some points when he talks about her on episode commentary (actually, I'd say "most" or "all" rather than "some.")

Maybe he has the whole brunette fantasy/history he gave Don in the story.

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6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

He was OBSESSED with JP.  

It is seriously creepy at some points when he talks about her on episode commentary (actually, I'd say "most" or "all" rather than "some.")

Maybe he has the whole brunette fantasy/history he gave Don in the story.

Oh yeah, I've heard that and I agree. It's really uncomfortable. Especially since I know he also saw something in January Jones, but the thing is with Betty I can *also* see Betty in January Jones. And Jessica Pare is fine as Megan as well, but I mean, with Betty I can see this weird woman who's china doll pretty so I get why the physical goes with the rest of it. Where as when I look at Megan I don't immediately see echoes of Catherine Deneuve or whatever. It's just a very different thing and sometimes it seems like MW isn't seeing what I'm seeing.

It doesn't bother me in the show because ultimately it seems like Megan is written as what she seems like, which is not some movie star walked off the screen but a wanna-be actress who isn't really going to stand out. But it's weird listening to Weiner talk about it. I think that's what makes it such a relief to watch it now where I'm not wondering what he's going to write for her--because I did in the end like what she was doing on the show.

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@sistermagpie  Did you ever notice January Jones in the movie LOVE ACTUALLY?  She has a tiny roll, one of the 3 girls in the bar in Wisconsin (or where ever) that takes the visiting brit home for sex.

She does a lot with that tiny scene, I was impressed, before I even recognized her.  BTW, the commentary on that one said that the American actresses in that scene thought the writing basically sucked, so they asked if they could just improvise?  The director said OK, and said that what ended up on the screen was mostly just those three improvising.  😉  

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I also have never seen whatever it was that MW saw in Jessica Pare.  I will say that she was serviceable in the role of Megan.  She learned her lines, did what she was told, and did enough to please the boss. But she never elevated the material like January Jones or Elizabeth Moss or even Anna Camp did in her small role.  I know it's harder to peel back the layers of a character when he/she is introduced mid-series, and I wonder if the writers did not fully form the character of Megan.  A better actress would create the necessary backstory to fully flesh out the character.  

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11 hours ago, Umbelina said:

@sistermagpie  Did you ever notice January Jones in the movie LOVE ACTUALLY?  She has a tiny roll, one of the 3 girls in the bar in Wisconsin (or where ever) that takes the visiting brit home for sex.

 

Absolutely! I love her in it. "And he's a Christian!" She's also in Pirate Radio and I liked her in that. I don't know if she's a great actress in general, but her manner is just perfect for Betty and makes her wonderfully weird.

 

2 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I also have never seen whatever it was that MW saw in Jessica Pare.  I will say that she was serviceable in the role of Megan.  She learned her lines, did what she was told, and did enough to please the boss. But she never elevated the material like January Jones or Elizabeth Moss or even Anna Camp did in her small role.  I know it's harder to peel back the layers of a character when he/she is introduced mid-series, and I wonder if the writers did not fully form the character of Megan.  A better actress would create the necessary backstory to fully flesh out the character.  

I believe MW actually used a lot of JP's own backstory for Megan--that's why she's French Canadian, for instance. But I think what's in the script does give her a lot to work with, especially after we meet those parents. Really, she's got just as much there as we've got for the other major characters. Compare her to Peggy, for instance, and it's really very similar by the end of the show.

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1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Absolutely! I love her in it. "And he's a Christian!" She's also in Pirate Radio and I liked her in that. I don't know if she's a great actress in general, but her manner is just perfect for Betty and makes her wonderfully weird.

That was one of the improvised lines I believe.  The 3 Americans didn't think the British writers/directors had the "American girls in a bar" vibe down.  So the director just let them go with it, their ideas.  Director ends up loving it, so nearly the whole scene just came from them!  I just think that is so cool.  I can still picture January pursing her lips in that little 0 shape.  She's not just a pretty face.

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On 5/23/2014 at 5:52 AM, Simon Boccanegra said:

Editor's Note: This topic replaces the old Mad Men forum which has been vaulted at the location below: http://forums.previously.tv/forum/262-mad-men-v/

 

Original Post from User:

Sometimes I watch an old episode and I see something that in retrospect seems telling. The first time we meet Stephanie, "The Good News" in S4, she is a student at Berkeley. She goes out to dinner with Don and Anna, and she is displeased to hear that Don works in advertising. She calls it "pollution." He tells her, "So stop buying things," and she replies, "Don't think that's not possible." Did Weiner have in mind that three seasons later we would see her living this grimy countercultural fringe existence, eating outside "all the time," et cetera?

 

In the same episode, in what turns out to be their last scene together, Anna tells Don to swim as much as possible, because it clears the mind. I had not remembered that by "The Summer Man," the first episode after her death, in which he is swimming and writing in his journal. (Not simultaneously, but you know.)  

 

In the first private scene Don and Faye share, in "Christmas Comes But Once A Year," she tells him something like, "You should know I learned everything about you I could." Right there, we might have suspected their eventual relationship would be short-lived. Indeed, their conversation is prickly throughout, and it ends with her jab about people not wanting to hear they're a "type," and him wishing her Merry Christmas with obvious irritation.   

To the editor, the posted link to the vaulted discussion is resulting in a 404 not found error.  Could we get this fixed please?

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Well, now I'm in the final season of the series after having watched all the episodes multiple times over the years.  What continues to shock me is how my impressions of the characters, storylines, etc.  have changed since the original air dates.  Was I such a different person back then?  Apparently, I have become a different person. I originally disliked the Megan character quite a bit.  I was angered she was brought into the mix.  Now, I'm fine with her. It's as if the characters that I used to like are now the ones I abhor.  

Can someone tell me the point of Don suggesting to Sally that they dine and dash from the restaurant they stopped to eat on their way back to her boarding school, after she lost her purse while in the city for a funeral.  She had gone to his office and discovered he was no longer working there. 

Another question about Don's comments.  Right after Sally catches Don in a compromising position with Sylvia, her husband and son come over to thank Don for his help with getting Mitchell into national guard or reserve duty. After they leave, Sally shouts to Don that he is a terrible person and storms out of the room to her bedroom.  Don shouts to her, "Sally, get back in here!"  He knows why she's upset with him. Why would he demand she come back into the dining room where Megan and Sally's friend are gathered? Wouldn't it be better for her to stay alone in the bedroom, away from others who she might blurt out what happened?  It just seemed like an odd comment.  

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On 10/3/2020 at 12:00 PM, Boopdopaloola said:

To the editor, the posted link to the vaulted discussion is resulting in a 404 not found error.  Could we get this fixed please?

Sadly, all the M forums were accidentally deleted a couple years ago so the Mad Men forum is gone permanently.

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1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Well, now I'm in the final season of the series after having watched all the episodes multiple times over the years.  What continues to shock me is how my impressions of the characters, storylines, etc.  have changed since the original air dates.  Was I such a different person back then?  Apparently, I have become a different person. I originally disliked the Megan character quite a bit.  I was angered she was brought into the mix.  Now, I'm fine with her. It's as if the characters that I used to like are now the ones I abhor.  

Can someone tell me the point of Don suggesting to Sally that they dine and dash from the restaurant they stopped to eat on their way back to her boarding school, after she lost her purse while in the city for a funeral.  She had gone to his office and discovered he was no longer working there. 

Another question about Don's comments.  Right after Sally catches Don in a compromising position with Sylvia, her husband and son come over to thank Don for his help with getting Mitchell into national guard or reserve duty. After they leave, Sally shouts to Don that he is a terrible person and storms out of the room to her bedroom.  Don shouts to her, "Sally, get back in here!"  He knows why she's upset with him. Why would he demand she come back into the dining room where Megan and Sally's friend are gathered? Wouldn't it be better for her to stay alone in the bedroom, away from others who she might blurt out what happened?  It just seemed like an odd comment.  

Personally, by the end of the series, the only original, main character I still liked was Roger.  

The annoying thing about this show was everything after season 4. “The Summer Man” laid the foundation for Don to grow and change, but he became even more of a dirtbag as the seasons unfurled.

I feel like by the final season, the show runners wanted us to hate everyone, even former nice-ish guy, Kenny Cosgrove.

That, and we are revealed the sad fates of Paul, Midge, and Rachel Menkin but we never hear from poor Sal Romano ever again?

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2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Well, now I'm in the final season of the series after having watched all the episodes multiple times over the years.  What continues to shock me is how my impressions of the characters, storylines, etc.  have changed since the original air dates.  Was I such a different person back then?  Apparently, I have become a different person. I originally disliked the Megan character quite a bit.  I was angered she was brought into the mix.  Now, I'm fine with her. It's as if the characters that I used to like are now the ones I abhor.  

Can someone tell me the point of Don suggesting to Sally that they dine and dash from the restaurant they stopped to eat on their way back to her boarding school, after she lost her purse while in the city for a funeral.  She had gone to his office and discovered he was no longer working there. 

Another question about Don's comments.  Right after Sally catches Don in a compromising position with Sylvia, her husband and son come over to thank Don for his help with getting Mitchell into national guard or reserve duty. After they leave, Sally shouts to Don that he is a terrible person and storms out of the room to her bedroom.  Don shouts to her, "Sally, get back in here!"  He knows why she's upset with him. Why would he demand she come back into the dining room where Megan and Sally's friend are gathered? Wouldn't it be better for her to stay alone in the bedroom, away from others who she might blurt out what happened?  It just seemed like an odd comment.  

The point of Don suggesting the dine and dash with Sally is to pull Sally out of her understandable bad mood and get her talking.  Sally would have been giving Don the silent treatment during the car ride and he was done with it.  Then they enter the restaurant where Sally decides not to eat and continue to just sit there.  So Don decides to put his advertising mantra into action and change the conversation.  By the time they reach Sally's school, the mood has shifted and they appear to have discussed the situation.  

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2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Well, now I'm in the final season of the series after having watched all the episodes multiple times over the years.  What continues to shock me is how my impressions of the characters, storylines, etc.  have changed since the original air dates.  Was I such a different person back then?  Apparently, I have become a different person. I originally disliked the Megan character quite a bit.  I was angered she was brought into the mix.  Now, I'm fine with her. It's as if the characters that I used to like are now the ones I abhor.  

I think Megan becomes much more pleasant when you know where it's going. At the time there was always a fear that the show was trying to sell me on something that wasn't there. But now I don't have worry about any of that and see her more as she was being presented, which wasn't as any threat to the show in general.

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Can someone tell me the point of Don suggesting to Sally that they dine and dash from the restaurant they stopped to eat on their way back to her boarding school, after she lost her purse while in the city for a funeral.  She had gone to his office and discovered he was no longer working there. 

I haven't watched it in a while, but my memory is the same as the post above, that he was just doing something to get her attention and change the mood.

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Another question about Don's comments.  Right after Sally catches Don in a compromising position with Sylvia, her husband and son come over to thank Don for his help with getting Mitchell into national guard or reserve duty. After they leave, Sally shouts to Don that he is a terrible person and storms out of the room to her bedroom.  Don shouts to her, "Sally, get back in here!"  He knows why she's upset with him. Why would he demand she come back into the dining room where Megan and Sally's friend are gathered? Wouldn't it be better for her to stay alone in the bedroom, away from others who she might blurt out what happened?  It just seemed like an odd comment.  

I think he was just still playing the role of Dad. It made it look like Sally was being a teenager instead of looking like Don understood what she was yelling at him for and had reason to be guilty about it. Even when he went to her door he was trying to hold onto the hope he could play it off like a misunderstanding. Even Don Draper couldn't sell that one. LOL.

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I guess changing the conversation was the point, but, it really angered me that a person with that amount of wealth would steal the value of their meals.  Such an arrogant asp move.  IMO, it's just more how the man has no scruples.  He says he does at times, but, I just don't buy it.  And, it's apparently, not the alcohol, because he's not drinking when it does some of this stuff. 

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1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I guess changing the conversation was the point, but, it really angered me that a person with that amount of wealth would steal the value of their meals.  Such an arrogant asp move.  IMO, it's just more how the man has no scruples.  He says he does at times, but, I just don't buy it.  And, it's apparently, not the alcohol, because he's not drinking when it does some of this stuff. 

But he didn't do it, did he? I remember it as just being a joke.

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3 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

What continues to shock me is how my impressions of the characters, storylines, etc.  have changed since the original air dates.  Was I such a different person back then?

It's the same for me, and I've thought about this question quite a bit.  I own the DVDs because I'm an "extras" junkie.

I think, for me anyway, it's that I know all their fates now (more in a later quote about that.)  I can't enjoy the lighthearted but significant contrasts between now and then as much.  I didn't know what would happen, and I tend to root for characters I like.  (I still play SIMS  at times too, and it's the same there, it's hard for me to make a horrible person SIMS, or to let any of my SIMS suffer.  If I wanted to create "ghosts" for example, it was always just a random SIM, never one I put thought into.)  

Until the final season I watched the DVDs fairly often, skipping all the Don flashbacks (God they are boring!) and Weiners creepy sexual shit.  About that, hearing about Weiner's alleged sexual creepiness with his staff?  Makes me cringe at so many scenes now.  

I am absolutely not a prude in any way.  I don't care if someone wants to be slapped, or threesomes, or anything else that is among consenting adults.  On the show though?  It seemed randomly thrown in so Weiner could have his own personal fantasies play out, it was never "explained" or connected to story, or even to Don for me, not in a meaningful or interesting way.  So, why was it there?  ICK ICK ICK

3 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Can someone tell me the point of Don suggesting to Sally that they dine and dash from the restaurant they stopped to eat on their way back to her boarding school, after she lost her purse while in the city for a funeral.  She had gone to his office and discovered he was no longer working there. 

He was just trying to break the tension, make her smile, perhaps a little big of "I could be a much worse father hon."  It worked, he knew Sally.

 

3 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Don shouts to her, "Sally, get back in here!"  He knows why she's upset with him. Why would he demand she come back into the dining room where Megan and Sally's friend are gathered?

Putting on a show for the others, an automatic thing for Don.  I'm sure he would have been horrified if she did come back.  He knew she wouldn't.  Don is always putting on a show  and hiding his true self, so it worked for me.  Also, he was caught off guard, and reacted immediately with the "show."

 

1 hour ago, LydiaE said:

Personally, by the end of the series, the only original, main character I still liked was Roger.  

I still liked a few, and completely agree with you about Roger! 

I adored Pete and Trudy's ending.  It was touching and believable, I believed they would have a good life.  They were both more mature and less likely to make fatal mistakes.  It was sweet.

I liked Joan's as well.  Having been in Joan's position (workplace atrocious sexual harassment) I was so uncomfortable in those scenes, but it was real.  I loved the conversations between Peggy and Joan as well.  I loved Pete with Joan, the only male in that company who still treated her as an equal, and a valuable work relationship.  I loved the endings she had with Roger.  I SUPER loved that she left, and started her own company.  I also loved that she didn't take the easy way out and marry the super wealthy, handsome, fun guy, choosing her son and work.

I didn't mind Peggy and Stan's ending.  It should have been a bit more fleshed out perhaps, but it was believable to me.  Joining with her best friend, a man who admired her work and wouldn't think of insisting she stop work and start baking cookies?  It's about as good as Peggy could hope for.  It won't be perfect, but it will be a life many women will try to juggle.  I think they will have kids, a nanny, and Peggy will rise at work, and continue to excel there.

The rest?  Harry Crane's was very believable, finally with the pigs just like him.  I was extremely sad about Ken's decision.  I was absolutely pissed off about every single thing that happened with Don, Sally, Bobby, Betty, and even her husband.  It all ruins the entire series for me.

By the way, I feel the same way about The Americans.  I have a very difficult time watching even the early episodes of a show I loved (just like Mad Men.)  When shows let me down so much at the end, especially with so much potential for greatness?  It's just depressing.

 

1 hour ago, LydiaE said:

The annoying thing about this show was everything after season 4. “The Summer Man” laid the foundation for Don to grow and change, but he became even more of a dirtbag as the seasons unfurled.

I don't even really care that Don remains Don, let him be a jerk until the end.  BUT MAKE IT BELIEVABLE AND EMOTIONAL or at least, make me care about it.

A Coke ad and giving up his kids?  Seriously show?  Fuck you.

 

1 hour ago, LydiaE said:

I feel like by the final season, the show runners wanted us to hate everyone, even former nice-ish guy, Kenny Cosgrove.

That, and we are revealed the sad fates of Paul, Midge, and Rachel Menkin but we never hear from poor Sal Romano ever again?

Yes, I would have loved some word of Sal and Paul.  Most of the characters get a horrible ending, but did they really have to add in Midge as a hopeless junkie, and Rachel dead early?  Both are believable, but the overall tone is just depressing.

 

48 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I guess changing the conversation was the point, but, it really angered me that a person with that amount of wealth would steal the value of their meals.  Such an arrogant asp move.  IMO, it's just more how the man has no scruples.  He says he does at times, but, I just don't buy it.  And, it's apparently, not the alcohol, because he's not drinking when it does some of this stuff. 

That was why it worked on Sally.  It was completely absurd and an obvious joke.

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10 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

By the way, I feel the same way about The Americans.  I have a very difficult time watching even the early episodes of a show I loved (just like Mad Men.)  When shows let me down so much at the end, especially with so much potential for greatness?  It's just depressing.

 

This is so me as well. It's why I never even consider getting DVDs or anything until the show is absolutely over because if it lets me down I'm not going to ever want to re-watch. 

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20 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

This is so me as well. It's why I never even consider getting DVDs or anything until the show is absolutely over because if it lets me down I'm not going to ever want to re-watch. 

They were still worth it especially the Mad Men DVD's, because as I said, I adore "extras" and commentaries.

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2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

They were still worth it especially the Mad Men DVD's, because as I said, I adore "extras" and commentaries.

I do own the box set of those. I really like listening to those commentaries--the good thing about MW's commentary is it's easy for me to tune it out if I'm not agreeing with him. Like, it never makes me change the way I see a scene if I disagree with it. And of course there's plenty of commentary with other people. 

That just made me remember how one of my favorite moments is when everyone goes silent watching Gypsy and the Hobo because the scene's so riveting.

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@sistermagpie  I meant to mention to you that I watched Love Actually again last night with the commentary.

As I said, the "American girls" in the bar adlibbed almost all of their scenes, since the original lines weren't that funny or real.  The director says that January Jones adlibbed ALL of her lines!  I just think that is so cool, a budding new actress being that spot on, and a director listening to her.

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1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

But he didn't do it, did he? I remember it as just being a joke.

He put down what appeared to be a dollar bill on the table. I took that to be the waitress's tip.  I'm not sure, but, I've heard that if a patron skips on paying, the server has to pay...well, back then, that's probably not true now.  

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12 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

He put down what appeared to be a dollar bill on the table. I took that to be the waitress's tip.  I'm not sure, but, I've heard that if a patron skips on paying, the server has to pay...well, back then, that's probably not true now.  

But he's not doing the thing he said they would do. He said he was going to go out and start the car and then she was supposed to leave. She looks upset and asks if he's serious. Then he grins and  deliberately takes out his wallet to show that he's paying and she relaxes and grins. Then they keep eating and are relaxed. They're not dining and dashing. 

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16 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But he's not doing the thing he said they would do. He said he was going to go out and start the car and then she was supposed to leave. She looks upset and asks if he's serious. Then he grins and  deliberately takes out his wallet to show that he's paying and she relaxes and grins. Then they keep eating and are relaxed. They're not dining and dashing. 

Don has many faults, but being a bad tipper is not one of them.  He may have dined and dashed back when he was younger and broke, but never as a wealthy man.  Don is an over-tipper because he knows the hardship.  Didn't he give Diana an obscenely large tip the first night he met her?  

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10 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Don has many faults, but being a bad tipper is not one of them.  He may have dined and dashed back when he was younger and broke, but never as a wealthy man.  Don is an over-tipper because he knows the hardship.  Didn't he give Diana an obscenely large tip the first night he met her?  

I believe that Roger left that tip, but I could easily be wrong.  Diana did think it was for sex later though.

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2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

But he's not doing the thing he said they would do. He said he was going to go out and start the car and then she was supposed to leave. She looks upset and asks if he's serious. Then he grins and  deliberately takes out his wallet to show that he's paying and she relaxes and grins. Then they keep eating and are relaxed. They're not dining and dashing. 

I’ll watch it again, but I don’t remember it that way. 

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Watched the dine and dash scene again.  My opinion is the same. Not sure she went along with it, but, only Sally kept eating. He told her to come out when she finished. He put down a dollar bill. To me that was a tip not full payment.  But, it’s not a huge deal.  What is more ironic in the scene is that he is so worried over Sally seeing a dead body at a funeral.....after what else she’s seen....he’s insufferable. 
 

I finally made through the series finally and I am astounded as to the difference in my feelings about it all.  
 

Don....incompetent, degenerate and with few redeeming qualities. If not for his looks, he’d really be pitiful.  I never bought into his redemption.  He left McCahn because someone else was getting the attention and he didn’t get his way.  No regard for his family, colleagues, secretary, etc.  When he hugged the crying man at the retreat I laughed. Don’t buy it.  Back in the day as we prepared for the finale, I predicted on the forum that the song It’s The REAL Thing would be featured.  I surmised it based on year and epic commercials.  Now, I wish he wasn’t associated with it. Can’t believe I used to like Don as a character! Shocking. Oh, his ideas weren’t good, imo. His opinions silly.
 

Peggy...has her moments but can be mean and witchy. At least she thinks things through and tries to really put clients first.  Hard to see her talent in most of what she created. 
 

Joan...I liked her more this time around.  I can see why she didn’t put her faith in another man. 
 

Roger....can’t be faithful, but made me laugh. One of my favorites. 
 

Pete...his infidelity and pettiness annoyed me. Don’t care for him. He won’t change. Poor Trudy.

Betty...a woman with few admirable traits.  Something missing...not a good mother, imo. Too selfish to have much sympathy for. 
 

Megan. Okay. Another victim of Don.  Much better than Don or Betty.

Sally...i used to dislike her and think she was spoiled. Now, I think she’s the hero in family of monsters. 

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14 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Watched the dine and dash scene again.  My opinion is the same. Not sure she went along with it, but, only Sally kept eating. He told her to come out when she finished. He put down a dollar bill. To me that was a tip not full payment.  But, it’s not a huge deal.  What is more ironic in the scene is that he is so worried over Sally seeing a dead body at a funeral.....after what else she’s seen....he’s insufferable. 

I know there's no way to actually tell since the scene just ends, but I can't square this with Don's character--he's a jerk, but never in this way. Not only does he not screw over lower level workers for fun, he would know you can't leave a tip for a waitress without paying and expect the waitress to go home with that money. He's not a hippie who thinks he's screwing the system by dining and dashing.

And it also doesn't square with Sally's reaction. Why does she look concerned until Don very intentionally goes for his wallet, at which point she relaxes? And he, too, has a super serious face until he takes off his wallet, and then he grins. It's just a bizarre to signal "see, we're really not going to pay" by taking out your wallet. And this all happens *before* he takes out whatever money he takes out. So they're both reacting to him taking out a wallet to pay, not looking at the money and calculating it's not enough to cover the meal.

Though, honestly, looking at it it looks like a ten or twenty dollar bill, not a single, so I think he is paying for the meal and also leaving a tip.

14 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Joan...I liked her more this time around.  I can see why she didn’t put her faith in another man. 

Didn't she try, though? It was Richard who knew how this was going to go if they tried to force it. Joan offered to marry him!

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With Joan, they were trying to portray the discrimination that single mothers faced during that time.  Remember in season 1, Betty’s worse fear was to become a Helen Bishop. 

However, I find it hard to believe a personality like Joan wouldn’t spin things in her favor.  I can’t believe that she wouldn’t be surrounded by a good handful of long-time bachelors or widowers despite being a mother. She had her mother and a nanny. It wasn’t like she was slaving days bouncing from one factory job to another trying to put food on the table. 

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4 hours ago, LydiaE said:

With Joan, they were trying to portray the discrimination that single mothers faced during that time.  Remember in season 1, Betty’s worse fear was to become a Helen Bishop. 

However, I find it hard to believe a personality like Joan wouldn’t spin things in her favor.  I can’t believe that she wouldn’t be surrounded by a good handful of long-time bachelors or widowers despite being a mother. She had her mother and a nanny. It wasn’t like she was slaving days bouncing from one factory job to another trying to put food on the table. 

She would have been though, if not for the Jaguar guy.

😉

I really do like most of them, just not Don, and I did like him for most of the series, except for the slapping and neighbor's wife bullshit.

Whatever that stupid Coke Ad was supposed to do for Don's "redemption" or whatever, certainly didn't work for me, and neither did that annoying road trip, and scenes with Betty, Peggy, and Sally only on the phone.

I ended up disliking him so much, and it's hard to enjoy my DVD's now, silly I know, but I just felt it was all going somewhere, and it didn't.  The one redeeming thing about Don for me was that he loved his kids, and they loved him, he was a thoughtful, good communicator with them all along.  

Sure show.  He just gives them to Henry or his HATED and complete asshole brother in law?  Never.

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5 hours ago, LydiaE said:

With Joan, they were trying to portray the discrimination that single mothers faced during that time.  Remember in season 1, Betty’s worse fear was to become a Helen Bishop. 

I didn't get the idea that Betty's issue with Helen was that Helen was a single mom.  I thought it was Helen's status as a divorced woman that Betty saw as a threat.  It was kind of nightmare scenario for Betty, in that Helen had a job, had to take care of things on her own and may even be on the prowl for a new husband, perhaps even her husband.     

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I've rewatched the show a number of times, and even though I don't really *like* Don, I can't hate him.  He's too broken, to hate.

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3 hours ago, Billina said:

I've rewatched the show a number of times, and even though I don't really *like* Don, I can't hate him.  He's too broken, to hate.

True.  It's just hard to watch him at times after that finale.

I still love nearly all his scenes with Betty, and with Sally and Bobby.  I don't think there is a single scene he has with Peggy that I don't still enjoy, whether they are fighting or perfecting an ad together.  I like him with Ted *mostly, and with Roger in spite of the stupid fight.  Oh, and let's not forget Pete, he is up there with Peggy, love them all.

I guess I'm just bored with all the random sex, and especially with that whole bandana obsession, and linking it to the stepmother that hated him?  Just ICK.  Serious ICK.  Oh and more ICK.  WTF?  Is that supposed to be why he suddenly craved being smacked around by a lady of the evening?  In the beginning it was fine, and I thought it fit the times, but as it went on and on and on, even including a dream murder?  I just felt like Mathew Weiner was playing with live dolls and living out his fantasies.  (oh and ICK)

I can still watch much of the show at times, even sat through the whole last season one more time, just to see if time softened my disappointment.  Answer?  Not enough, but a bit, IF I skip all of the stupid waitress crap that is.  (it wasn't the actress's fault, it was the writing.)  I also skip all flashback to the fam scenes, and most of the sex scenes in the last two seasons.

I will always love this show though, for pregnant women smoking and drinking, and leaving plastic bags on kids, and throwing garbage all over the park after the picnic, and The Suitcase, and Shut The Door Have a Seat, and so much other greatness.

 

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14 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I guess I'm just bored with all the random sex, and especially with that whole bandana obsession, and linking it to the stepmother that hated him?  Just ICK.  Serious ICK.  Oh and more ICK.  WTF?  Is that supposed to be why he suddenly craved being smacked around by a lady of the evening?  In the beginning it was fine, and I thought it fit the times, but as it went on and on and on, even including a dream murder?  I just felt like Mathew Weiner was playing with live dolls and living out his fantasies.  (oh and ICK)

 

I remember someone saying, when the revealed the whole "whore soup" story that it seemed to have stopped being the origin of a philanderer and started being the origin story of a serial killer. Still, I pretty much still like everybody on the show, even if I also hated that last arc with Don that seemed to intentionally land him in a state of limbo where we had no way of knowing exactly how things would shake out afterwards, besides that he's write that coke ad. I got a little sick of Don and Peggy just as a pair for a while there, but was back onboard later. Even most of the people I disliked the most on watching I don't mind on re-watch--often they seemed to have taken up way more time than I remembered when watching in real time.

Still, it surprises me when I re-watch early season and realize how much sadder Don seems them, when his life seemed to be so together. I think the show does a good job showing how healthy the changing attitudes of the 60s were, even while it poked fun at or highlighted the dark side of it. 

21 hours ago, Umbelina said:

She would have been though, if not for the Jaguar guy.

 

And tbf, I think the aspect of men being put off by her having a child was very real no matter how much money she had. It's a huge difference between her and Don that when he has to drop something because of his kid it's the kid who's seen as intruding where it's the opposite with Joan as a woman. I found Richard fine in the end, but he really did instinctively act like he was somehow wronged when he found out Joan had a kid!

ETA: Forgot wanted to note this: 

Quote

Pete...his infidelity and pettiness annoyed me. Don’t care for him. He won’t change. Poor Trudy.

I thought Pete's change was one of the most believable. He's still the same person, but he was very capable of learning and seeing what didn't work and letting go of it. I don't think Trudy's making a mistake or marrying Don or Roger without realizing it. I think they both learned things.

 

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I don't dislike anyone on the show.  There are times when a character will do something awful and I hate that they did it, but I never hate the character.  I went through cycles where some characters annoyed me more than others, and Don was at the top of that list.  I thought Pete was a spoiled brat for most of the show's run, and only thought about himself and his own needs, but I agree with Sister Magpie that he had one of the most believable arcs on the show.  There is no one thing that makes Pete realize he's been acting selfishly, and I think that's very true to life.  Peggy never grated on my nerves the way she did for others.  I think that's because I am also an introvert who just wants to concentrate on their work and do their best.  Joan could have a Queen Bee attitude that turned me off, but I think the show did a good job of showing us why Joan could be like that.  That's what she was taught, and that's how she learned to rise to the top in a male dominated world.  I understood it.  Betty did  her share of awful things, but she was too repressed and damaged for me to hate her.  She broke my heart, more than anything.  Roger could be a shit, but he added a lot of color and humor to the show, and he was just too damn charming to hate.  I even had moments where I kind of liked Harry, lol.  So, whenever I do a rewatch, I experience moments of disappointment, exasperation, and annoyance with the characters, but there isn't anyone I loathe, through and through.  To me, that's the beauty of this show, no one is good and no one is bad.  They're all heartbreakingly human.

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4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I thought Pete's change was one of the most believable. He's still the same person, but he was very capable of learning and seeing what didn't work and letting go of it. I don't think Trudy's making a mistake or marrying Don or Roger without realizing it. I think they both learned things.

I agree.  Pete learned and grew from his experiences.  The Pete who was so cowed by his parents that he gave up on adopting a child would not recognize the Pete of 1970. 

2 hours ago, Billina said:

That's what she was taught, and that's how she learned to rise to the top in a male dominated world. 

I would couch that by saying she rose to the top of the female dominated positions in a male dominated world.  Becoming a partner was a fluke.   

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4 hours ago, Billina said:

There is no one thing that makes Pete realize he's been acting selfishly, and I think that's very true to life. 

I think his wife acted selfishly as well though, just on one thing, but it was a significant thing.  She insisted on moving to "the country" even though her husband hated that idea.  In the end, that really was the thing that divided them.  I'm not saying Pete wasn't a shit too!

In the end, it was that they both "grew up" and realized what they really wanted, and it was each other.  Yeah, Pete got the perfect job offer at the perfect time, which was a tad contrived, but I still loved their ending.

Edited by Umbelina · Reason: apparently I've forgotten how to type
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10 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I think his wife acted selfishly as well though, just on one thing, but it was a significant thing.  She insisted on moving to "the country" even though her husband hated that idea.  In the end, that really was the thing that divided them.  I'm not saying Pete wasn't a shit too!

In the end, it was that they both "grew up" and realized what they really wanted, and it was each other.  Yeah, Pete got the perfect job offer at the perfect time, which was a tad contrived, but I still loved their ending.

Yeah, that's how I saw it too, and I know at the time people often saw her as a saint. Not that anything she did justified Pete's behavior--it was good that he had to sit and suffer the consequences of his own actions. But I definitely thought a lot of the stuff with her family would have been a problem with anyone and she had to grow out of that. And I didn't think his complaints about only seeing her in pajamas were just him being sexist or selfish--it was a symptom of a deeper issue. 

But in general she's sort of like a character in another show in an ep I just re-watched--in the second marriage there will be less "Why can't you be the person I want you to be instead of the person you are" conflicts.

It's also ironic that it seems like only by becoming a single father was Pete able to figure out and then be the father he actually wanted to be.

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On 6/4/2020 at 8:49 AM, deaja said:

I'm up to Season 6 in my rewatch before it goes off Netflix.  

I really liked Season 7 Joan, so I had started liking her character better in hindsight, but my full rewatch has reminded me how much I dislike her character. She's mean, selfish, vindictive, and just horrible to almost every other character overall.  Yet she views herself as such a victim for many of her plotlines.

 

On 6/4/2020 at 12:43 PM, Ohiopirate02 said:

Early Joan was such a bitch to the rest of the female staff.  There are a lot of aspects of Joan that I like and her loathing of Harry was completely justified, but she did not have to be so mean to the rest of her underlings.  And I do think she viewed the rest of the secretaries as her underlings.  She knew to turn on the charm with people above her, but treated everyone else like shit.  

I am almost finished with my rewatch.  I have 2 episode left.  This time around, I am finding I like Megan more.  I think it has to do with knowing how it ends and not getting caught up with the games Matthew Weiner played back when season 6 aired and the lead up the the final season.  I could forget the whole Megan as Sharon Tate teasing that he did.  Megan living in California was not as ominous this time.  That being said, I do wish her last appearance would have been her phone call with Don in Waterloo.  I didn't need her and her family reappearing in New York.  The show did a pretty good job establishing that Megan's talent was middling at best, her lunch with Harry was unnecessary.  Her final scene with Don took away the dignity and maturity she showed in Waterloo.  

 

On 6/5/2020 at 3:20 AM, Old Man Neil said:

I love this comment. 

On the surface, he seemed like a nice guy, but his actions were thoroughly reprehensible. No wonder he cringed when he thought Peggy was going to say he was nice. People mistook him for nice his whole life.

Duck Phillips was more of a gentleman to Peggy. Well, maybe not, but it was close. 

 

 

On 6/5/2020 at 8:16 PM, sistermagpie said:

NOW I'M DYING TO KNOW!!!

Iirc, I took it as Ted realizing Don was always gonna Don while Ted himself was perfectly happy being one of many at McCann. But now Ted was no longer fooling himself that they were in the same league, sort of. He no longer needed to be Don, because he was content to be himself.

 

On 6/8/2020 at 12:02 PM, txhorns79 said:

I always wanted a scene between Peggy and her mother after she broke up with Abe.  After Mrs. Olsen telling Peggy that Abe would just use her for practice, and move on, I'd have liked to see her reaction to being told Peggy stabbed him with a spear.

 

On 6/8/2020 at 7:48 PM, Umbelina said:

She was a bit boring, but you just reminded me of something.  They just DROPPED that story, Don, who was so "in love" was suddenly free to be with  her, or at least have sex with her, whenever he wanted to.  He was oh so lonely, but it never occurred to him to call her?  I mean, I get it, apparently he was jolted out of his "love haze" but seriously?  

Anyway, props to her, because it led to one of the best scenes ever on the show, the confrontation between Betty and Don, while she waited in the car.

I loved Ginsberg on the show, the actor did a fabulous job.  Even though an update would have probably been bleak, I longed for one.  I'm still not quite sure if he was adopted or the biological son of that wonderful man.  

HATED IT!  

They wasted so much of the season on strangers, and I thought the coke ad was trite and predictable.  They also had so many bait and switch things going on (Ooooo lookie, Megan in Sharon Tate's T shirt, and living in the canyons, and even a Manson look alike at one of her parties!) and instead we get "Don's road trip."  Boo.  Hiss.  Still angry.

I always liked Megan, and her storyline.  She was a logical choice for Don, and it clicked for him when she comforted Sally.  Boss marries the secretary who is half his age.  Shocker.

Her acting career was one of the things I liked about her story.  It created the inevitable tension as Don's little Barbie Doll had the nerve to have a mind and desires of her own.  I liked the rich-girl embarrassment and privilege she had being shown as well.  When she stooped to betraying her friend, and asking favors of her husband to get that commercial, her flaws and complications were interesting to me.  Shows can't have happy couples, they are boring, in that way, Mad Men followed the herd.

I don't think she was disingenuous.  She had an artistic personality, so of course she would lean toward the creative side of advertising over getting coffee, filing, and typing.  I think we watched her realize that it was only a substitute for what she really wanted to do, acting.  Still as her mom said "not every little girl can be a ballerina."  I doubt she found any real success at acting, probably remained a rich dabbler, taking classes and trying to be good.

Don has a type.

The Jaguar Guy.

Pete's dad was no prize either.  Don's dad was a nightmare, and his stepdad possibly worse.  That asshole who insulted Joan, actually both of them, at the new job in the last season deserve a mention as well.

As others have said, also rapist Greg, and Lou Garner.

Are we honestly faulting Megan for having sex here?  It was the sixties, everyone was having sex, and Cosmo was encouraging young women in the office to bang their bosses.  😉  

Ditto on Lou Garner, disgusting man.

Waited so long to hear Joan say that to him, and to confront him about the rape!  Such a great pay off.

I used to say "There is falling in love, and then there is 'walking into love.'"  Peggy and Stan walked into it.

Hands down, Pete was my favorite character on the show.  I can't remember being bored with him once.  Annoyed?  As he would say "occasionally."  Bored?  NEVER.  I'm so happy he got a happy ending, both on the show, and in real life.  

When he was having an affair with the character played by Alexis Bledel?  I remember thinking "those two belong together."  I'm not much of a shipper, if at all, but to me, they were just magic on screen.  When I heard they had married, it was so...logical, because they just seemed to fit.  I still don't know if I loved that storyline more because of the fabulous acting, or because there was such chemistry.  

Seeing him board that plane with his wife and daughter, heading off to a life of both peaceful suburbia and traveling the world?  Perfection.  

 

On 6/9/2020 at 9:12 AM, Ohiopirate02 said:

One thing that stood out to me on my rewatch of season 5, Megan was always Don's wife first and copywriter second.  Everyone else on the team went into the office at 9am and Megan waltzed in with Don whenever he was ready to go to work.  She also left when Don was ready to leave.  Megan knew she wasn't really part of the team.  And then there's the trip upstate to the Howard Johnson's where Don demanded Megan leave work.  He never realized the position he kept putting Megan in and the work that was consistently dropped into Peggy's lap to suit Don's whims.  This was never going to work long-term, and Megan knew that.  She was unhappy as a copywriter because of Don, and she began to dream again about being an actress.  She pushed that dream down when she was a secretary for practical reasons, but those reasons fell away when she married a man who could pay the bills.  Her desire to be an actress was always there.  I get why she had to try again, and I think Don also understood.  I do wish that Don would have stuck to his guns about casting Megan in the Butler shoe commercial.  He was right in that instance.  Megan needed to earn her career as an actress through her own talents and hard work.  

 

On 6/26/2020 at 2:43 PM, MCMLXXVII said:

Now that I’ve been working from home since March, on the one hand I’m like “office buildings are a mid-century relic of elitism”, let’s never go back! On the other hand I’m thinking my living room can be turned into a sexy Mad Men style office way better than my cubicle at work.😂

 

On 7/2/2020 at 4:12 PM, Umbelina said:

That was a great character played by a great actor.  I wish we had at least learned more about his concentration camp experience.  I'm still not sure if his "father" simply adopted him as one of the orphans/victims OR if he was really his father.

All around, I would have loved much more Ginsberg, before and after.  I just watched the scene last night when he comes into Don's office with the "At last, something beautiful you can truly own" pitch for jaguar.  There is no way that entire scene could have been played better, by either actor, it was perfection.

 

On 7/3/2020 at 5:12 PM, Ralphster said:

I have a hugely unpopular opinion, and that is that Harry was justified in pointing out Joan's prostitution. I was sickened by that plotline. Modern feminism has repeatedly railed against women doing that, because it is hugely demeaning and hurtful. Yet Joan has gotten so many hurrahs for this behaviour. She had the choice to say no; she wasn't starving or facing eviction or lacking in childcare. Perhaps this should elicit a discussion elsewhere of whether most people would literally whore themselves out for a large sum, but that seems a bit of a digression.

Harry brought the company into the TV age. This is huge beyond measure. Without Harry's perspicacity, Sterling Cooper and later iterations would have foundered in trying to rush to keep up with other firms who not only had a good handle on what worked & didn't work for TV, but who would have already established relationships with the networks, etc. Harry's contributions in this regard are almost always overlooked, IMO, while Joan's act of prostitution is praised. Having experienced rape myself, when I had no choice whatsoever in what happened to me, it is hugely galling to see people claiming Joan was victimized. Maybe she could be considered victimized in that her contributions, which were huge, should have been recognised along with Harry's by the partners long hence (in which case Harry is also a victim), but not in her choice to have sex for money. I cannot and will not cast Joan as a victim in this situation, nor will I cheer her on for "getting hers." I completely understand Harry's rage and humiliation, not to mention his disgust; Harry keeps getting steamrolled by the company. In the end, when he's just about to make partner, they sell to McCann and he misses out AGAIN. That's THE definition of wrong.

I also think Greg gets the shaft, too. He's a rapist, so he can go jump off a cliff for all I care, but Joan committed paternity fraud. The fact that the child was never Greg's negates, for me, his behaviour in choosing to stay overseas away from his "family." Who's to say he didn't sense in some way that the child wasn't his, either through the child itself or through Joan's mannerisms? He already felt insecure about Joan's sexuality and her relationship with Roger (and probably men in general); perhaps he never fully believed the child was his, because he never trusted Joan (for good reason). In any case, he can't be considered bad for this because the child wasn't his. I understand the other side's argument here - that, if Greg believed the child to be his, his behaviour was reprehensible - but I firmly believe that the beginning of all this was a huge lie, therefore Greg's behaviour is not the evil behaviour it is characterized as. 

Also, Joan is a terrible, terrible person for lying about her son's paternity. Having dealt with this in real life, people who do this are not good people. They are selfish and care only about their own narratives, not about the truth or what's best for other people. Only what's good for them. And in this case, Joan had decided she would cling to Dr. Loser for the time being, and so it was good for her to lie about her child's paternity so that her narrative could keep chugging along. Kevin deserves to know who his real father is, and Greg deserves to know the child isn't his. That's the only positive thing I will say about Greg, who is overall not a good person either. It's why he and Joan deserved each other, IMO. I always loathed Joan; deep down, she belongs in a trailer park, for she just has that mentality about her. She isn't sophisticated, she isn't openminded, she is drama-centered and narcissistic and lacks dignity. It says a lot about our society that the behaviour of someone like Joan is conflated with dignity.

 

On 7/4/2020 at 9:51 PM, sistermagpie said:

Like a lot of characters, he's got places where he's forward thinking and others where he's not. He saw TV as the future (doesn't he mention other companies already having TV departments?), but it didn't occur to him that there was no reason to hire a college grad man to do the job Joan was doing even though she was obviously doing really well at it. Of course, it should be noted that Joan herself didn't lobby for it. Iirc, she just agreed she was glad to get back to work. That was a specific way Joan was contrasted to Peggy, who openly wanted to move up as a worker while Joan was raised to think that was a bad look for any woman.

 

On 7/6/2020 at 5:48 PM, sistermagpie said:

That's what I mean, though. Just that I think there's a difference between rooting for her when she's a woman in a sexist world and fighting her way to get something out of it and acknowledging that sometimes she did that by making the system work for her and embracing it. Like we don't have to say Joan was being feminist by advising Peggy to take off her clothes and put a bag over her head to figure out what her best assets were at work.

Joan was, it seems to me, a really practical person in--it's one of the things I like about her. And it seems like given the time and place she was born into etc., the looks she had, she looked around and said okay, these are the rules of this game, so I'm going to play it better than anyone. As Peggy realizes in S1, Joan is trying to help her by giving her advice about prioritizing her looks for the men in the office etc. She's genuinely not against seeing other women succeed. It doesn't get noted a lot, but it's a nice character note with Joan that other women often like her, and not just in a superficial way. It just takes her a while to, again in a practical way, see the limits of what she was doing and even the limits of what she thought she could get. As I think she says to Peggy, sometimes when you get what you wanted you realize how small your dreams were.

I don't think it was anti-feminist at all for Joan to ever sleep with a guy to get something--she didn't have the same areas open to her that the men did. But she became a feminist when she started questioning whether it was a natural and good thing that that was the way it worked, as she'd been told all her life.

And when she does that, she doesn't become Peggy. She's still very recognizably Joan. She's just ready to say she'd rather start her own company than hang on to the handsome man--in 1960 doing it her way would have meant marrying the rich guy. The Joan of s1 could barely even imagine that choice even existing for her.

Sorry, for all the quotes...you people are just awesome at discussing this show.

Okay, I love the character of Joan and that at the end she made something for herself using her brains and not her amazing looks.

I think the show wanted us to think that Joan was an expert on men, particularly the old sexist attitudes.

However, someone (who was a new watcher of the series) pointed out something to me that I never took into account. Joan was amazing at getting men's attention with her beauty and pleasing personality. She was giving a lot of people (like Peggy) advice on how to appear more attractive to men to get ahead in the world, yet, Joan was lousy at keeping a man.

In the first season, I thought Joan was waiting for something better than an ad executive. Then I began to realize that Joan simply made bad decisions and did not know men as well as she thought. Old school Joan would have probably pounded it into someone's head that a woman should be married by 30. However, here she was wasting her time with married Roger Sterling. To add insult to injury, Roger dumps his wife and marries Jane (who was sort of Joan's nemesis) almost on a whim. Also, is there indication that Joan got dumped...by freaking Paul of all people?

Of course she ends of with horrible Greg...even Peggy had better taste in men. Her last relationship was with a guy that reminded me of Don Knotts, who I love, but do not find sexy.

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I noticed that Joan's mother was kind of plain and probably thought Joan would not have any trouble in the husband department. Yet, Joan follows in her footsteps in getting abandoned by stupid Greg and having to raise a child on her own.

I think the problem was that Joan really did not want to be married. She loved being independent but it was not the prototype for a successful woman when she was growing up.

I also think she attracted jerks who mostly objectified her and then were upset when she actually had a pretty sharp brain. I remember Roger called her something like "the best piece of ass he ever had" and I was kind of mortified for her.

 

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On 10/2/2020 at 12:12 AM, sistermagpie said:

Oh yeah, I've heard that and I agree. It's really uncomfortable. Especially since I know he also saw something in January Jones, but the thing is with Betty I can *also* see Betty in January Jones. And Jessica Pare is fine as Megan as well, but I mean, with Betty I can see this weird woman who's china doll pretty so I get why the physical goes with the rest of it. Where as when I look at Megan I don't immediately see echoes of Catherine Deneuve or whatever. It's just a very different thing and sometimes it seems like MW isn't seeing what I'm seeing.

It doesn't bother me in the show because ultimately it seems like Megan is written as what she seems like, which is not some movie star walked off the screen but a wanna-be actress who isn't really going to stand out. But it's weird listening to Weiner talk about it. I think that's what makes it such a relief to watch it now where I'm not wondering what he's going to write for her--because I did in the end like what she was doing on the show.

Betty was an interesting mix of a bit of a weirdo in a beautiful package. I liked that Henry really seemed to appreciate her true personality in a way Don never could.

On 10/2/2020 at 9:38 AM, Ohiopirate02 said:

I also have never seen whatever it was that MW saw in Jessica Pare.  I will say that she was serviceable in the role of Megan.  She learned her lines, did what she was told, and did enough to please the boss. But she never elevated the material like January Jones or Elizabeth Moss or even Anna Camp did in her small role.  I know it's harder to peel back the layers of a character when he/she is introduced mid-series, and I wonder if the writers did not fully form the character of Megan.  A better actress would create the necessary backstory to fully flesh out the character.  

There was a scene where Don was watching some test reels of Megan (I think it did not have sound). Jessica Pare is gorgeous but she was kind of traipsing around like an awkward toothy giraffe. I took that scene to be that Don was mortified because he knew his wife was never going to make it as an actress and was kind of making a fool of herself (like when she sang at the disaster of a surprise birthday party).

Later, I have heard that Mathew Wiener wanted us to learn that Don was awed by Megan's talent and beauty and it was then that Don realized that Megan was born to be an actress. I was like... what the fuck?

When it comes to JP (who was decent in her role) I feel like I am taking crazy pills because I never see what Mathew Wiener sees.

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On 9/29/2020 at 12:18 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

On rewatch, so many years later and I have some new opinions and some that aren’t so new.  I now see Don in a much more critical light. I used to like his character, but I’m not sure why.  He really is a dreadful person.  Are we supposed to see his vulnerability when he gets teary eyed with Anna and Peggy?  It doesn’t touch me the way it used to, even when I consider his upbringing.  I was glad the professional lady he was seeing before he hooked up with Megan was spared. She dodged a bullet. He would never had been happy with her and would have wrecked her life. 
 

As someone who never warmed to Megan, I once again have trouble swallowing how the writers set up his attraction to her. Those awkward looks at her in a couple of episodes prior to the CA trip, then the instant love and engagement. Lol Too funny. It’s more unbelievable now than the first time I watched it. I don’t buy that he thought she made a good mother either and that is what caused him to go so crazy so fast. He didn’t seem to care about things like that. 
 

I recently noticed how irritable he gets when things don’t go his way and how he takes it out on whoever is nearby. So silly. 

I think at the end, Don wants a mother much more than he wants a lover (sort of like what people say about Prince Charles). Don never really had a mother and is always looking for the "ideal version" of maternal warmth...something a real woman can never live up to.

Also, Don has a huge virgin/whore complex, which I think was not unusual for a man of his time period. He looked at actresses a little better than whores and it did not fit in with his "maternal" fantasies. I do think there is an interesting parallel universe story where Megan falls in love with advertising and they become an amazing power couple. However, Don will always want his wife to live up to ridiculous fantasies and will abandon them when they become too "real".

 

On 9/29/2020 at 1:49 PM, Ohiopirate02 said:

I didn't like Megan the first time around, and while I still think Jessica Pare was the worst actress on the show, I do feel for her character.  I saw Don being attracted to Megan as a second-chance (or third if you want to count Anna) at the perfect domestic life he thinks he wants.  Don needs someone to take care of the housework, have dinner on the table, and take care of his kids when they are visiting.  This time around he is willing to allow her to continue working and he won't move back out into the suburbs.  Two things he thinks were the contributing factors to his divorce from Betty, and the whole Dick Whitman lie.  That is also why Don appears to be more open to Megan.  Megan ticked off enough of Don's boxes and she appeared at the right time.  I can see what Don saw in Megan, but I never could understand why Megan wanted Don.  I felt her end of their marriage was underwritten.  It was like the writers couldn't decide if she was a mercenary second wife like Jane or actual love, and I never bought Season 7 part 2 Megan saying he ruined her.  

I actually don't think Don would have wrecked Dr. Faye's life.  She knew who she was, what she wanted in a partner, and was vocal about it.  She straight up told Don she wasn't good with kids and was never going to be the wife-mother combo Don was looking for.  

In this universe, Don is the sexiest, most amazing man that has ever lived. No woman can resist him. It works because Jon H is so good but in someone else's hands it could become ridiculous. It also does not hurt that he is incredibly handsome and rich.

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Edited by qtpye
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Even with his looks, for me, the scenes of him in the hotel room with his neighbor lady lover giving her commands did not work. She didn’t seem to get anything out of it and he was too clueless to see that. Omg, so boring and tedious. Definitely, a way to annoy your lover.....I do have to hand one thing to Hamm. He is so convincing as that jerk, that I somehow imagine that he is like that in real life.   His interviews sort of confirm it too. It’s unfortunate.  I’ve seen a few photos of him and his current lover online. 
 

You know, she is the actress who played as staff member at that retreat he attended on Mad Men finale? 

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5 hours ago, qtpye said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

However, someone (who was a new watcher of the series) pointed out something to me that I never took into account. Joan was amazing at getting men's attention with her beauty and pleasing personality. She was giving a lot of people (like Peggy) advice on how to appear more attractive to men to get ahead in the world, yet, Joan was lousy at keeping a man.

I think the problem was that Joan really did not want to be married. She loved being independent but it was not the prototype for a successful woman when she was growing up.

I also think she attracted jerks who mostly objectified her and then were upset when she actually had a pretty sharp brain. I remember Roger called her something like "the best piece of ass he ever had" and I was kind of mortified for her.

 

Totally agree. I feel like Joan herself wasn't aware of how much she sabotaged herself because she couldn't admit it, but she absolutely was. She'd even already been married once when we met her and left him or was left. She's clearly putting off getting married if she's already over 30. Then it seems like she must have just settled on Greg and was determined to keep him even though he's obviously not anything special for her and then she winds up getting dumped. And Roger doesn't even want to leave his wife for her because she's not young enough. It seemed like the central conflict of Joan was she was determined to live a life that she really didn't want. Until the end, at least.

4 hours ago, qtpye said:

There was a scene where Don was watching some test reels of Megan (I think it did not have sound). Jessica Pare is gorgeous but she was kind of traipsing around like an awkward toothy giraffe. I took that scene to be that Don was mortified because he knew his wife was never going to make it as an actress and was kind of making a fool of herself (like when she sang at the disaster of a surprise birthday party).

Later, I have heard that Mathew Wiener wanted us to learn that Don was awed by Megan's talent and beauty and it was then that Don realized that Megan was born to be an actress. I was like... what the fuck?

When it comes to JP (who was decent in her role) I feel like I am taking crazy pills because I never see what Mathew Wiener sees.

Oh god, yes. I remember thinking that too. And Megan's not even acting in that screen test, that I remember. It seemed like she was just talking to people and being herself and the camera was filming her looking pretty. 

But then, that's so perfect for Don. Of course he would look at a silent screen test of a pretty girl being herself and project all this stuff onto it, that she's a great actress and an artist. We never see him actually watching her act. He may never have seen it beyond the Shoe ad if it was on TV. He didn't seem to watch her soap.

Oh, and also agree about Betty. I love what a total weirdo she is. I think that's why I really wanted that marriage to continue if they could both be weird together, but I'm glad she got Henry. Maybe he fit with her more because he was the not-weird one.

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13 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Totally agree. I feel like Joan herself wasn't aware of how much she sabotaged herself because she couldn't admit it, but she absolutely was. She'd even already been married once when we met her and left him or was left. She's clearly putting off getting married if she's already over 30. Then it seems like she must have just settled on Greg and was determined to keep him even though he's obviously not anything special for her and then she winds up getting dumped. And Roger doesn't even want to leave his wife for her because she's not young enough. It seemed like the central conflict of Joan was she was determined to live a life that she really didn't want. Until the end, at least.

Oh god, yes. I remember thinking that too. And Megan's not even acting in that screen test, that I remember. It seemed like she was just talking to people and being herself and the camera was filming her looking pretty. 

But then, that's so perfect for Don. Of course he would look at a silent screen test of a pretty girl being herself and project all this stuff onto it, that she's a great actress and an artist. We never see him actually watching her act. He may never have seen it beyond the Shoe ad if it was on TV. He didn't seem to watch her soap.

Oh, and also agree about Betty. I love what a total weirdo she is. I think that's why I really wanted that marriage to continue if they could both be weird together, but I'm glad she got Henry. Maybe he fit with her more because he was the not-weird one.

I think the problem was Don (of course the problem is always Don). When we get the flashback of Don telling Anna about meeting Betty and wanting to marry her, he calls her something like the happiest person he knows. Don wanted Betty to be the eternal sunny blonde happy blonde beauty by his side. Of course, the real Betty is much more complex than that. Somewhat of the same thing happened with Megan.

Unfortunately, Don never got into why he cheats on his wives but the pattern is the same. He meets a beautiful woman that he barely knows and then projects all his many insecurities on to her. He thinks this beautiful woman will solve all his problems when the only one who can solve his problems is himself.

He probably goes from obsessed to not caring very quickly. I remember when he was going on the beach vacation with Megan and she got them weed, he seemed like he could barely stand being around her.

Also, count me in with those people who enjoyed the series but hated the finale episode. I thought the Coca Cola commercial was trite, particularly since it was a real thing done by another person.

If I were to fanwank, my guess is that Don gets married a third time to a much younger woman when he is in his mid-fifties. It is going the typical midlife crisis type of thing. I would not be surprised if Don has a child with this much younger woman. As Faye said, Don only likes the beginning of things. This will probably be the time that Don starts to lose his touch and begins to look like a dinosaur in the advertising world. 

He will think that this wife and child will be the one! I would not be surprised if he is estranged from his former children at that point. Her probably neglected them horribly but paid for them to be materially very comfortable (they would not have to worry about college tuition, etc.). He might even have one of his kids with Betty try to follow in his footsteps and go into advertising...just to show dear old dad that he or she can outshine the great Don Draper.

I also think that Don will probably die in his early sixties from alcohol related health issues. He will be divorced for the third time by that point, friends like Roger will be long gone, and he will probably wallowing in self pity. He might have held on to his fortune but his looks will be long gone.

This is rather grim but it can be avoided if he ever takes the time in his life to explore his issues but I am doubtful if that will ever happen.

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14 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Totally agree. I feel like Joan herself wasn't aware of how much she sabotaged herself because she couldn't admit it, but she absolutely was. She'd even already been married once when we met her and left him or was left. She's clearly putting off getting married if she's already over 30. Then it seems like she must have just settled on Greg and was determined to keep him even though he's obviously not anything special for her and then she winds up getting dumped. And Roger doesn't even want to leave his wife for her because she's not young enough. It seemed like the central conflict of Joan was she was determined to live a life that she really didn't want. Until the end, at least.

 

I love the character arc of Joan.  She pursued the life she was told (ironically by her employers) she was supposed to want.  It never worked out for her because deep down she did not want it.  The show begins with Peggy who decided at an early age, she did not want to be only a wife and mother.  Peggy is determined to make a career out of advertising because she wants a career.  Work fulfills Peggy.  So much of the early tension between Joan and Peggy is because Joan thinks Peggy's rejection of the life Joan is leading is her insulting Joan and not the empty dream.  There is a shift in Joan when she waltzes into the Sterling Cooper offices that Sunday afternoon in Shut the Door, Have a Seat.  Joan is no longer working as a way to pay the bills while she finds her rich husband, she is now working because she wants to, because work is fulfilling her in a way Greg cannot.  Joan begins to understand Peggy.  And by season 7, we see Joan approaching Peggy about starting a business together.  

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1 hour ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Joan is no longer working as a way to pay the bills while she finds her rich husband, she is now working because she wants to, because work is fulfilling her in a way Greg cannot. 

I do agree that Joan liked working, but my impression was that she had to work due to Greg's job issues.  Doesn't he tell her right before her last day at Sterling Cooper that she can no longer quit? 

 

15 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

 

Oh, and also agree about Betty. I love what a total weirdo she is. I think that's why I really wanted that marriage to continue if they could both be weird together, but I'm glad she got Henry. Maybe he fit with her more because he was the not-weird one.

That's an interesting take on Betty.  I thought some of her behavior was weird, but to me, that was more because of her general immaturity and childishness than just being a strange person.  I mean, one of my favorite scenes was Dr. Edna having her session with Betty and trying very gently to guide her to a psychiatrist that worked with adults, but seemingly realizing that Betty couldn't handle that and agreeing to continue their sessions. 

Also, fun fact from Rich Sommer about his scenes from the episode, My Old Kentucky Home.

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1 minute ago, txhorns79 said:

I do agree that Joan liked working, but my impression was that she had to work due to Greg's job issues.  Doesn't he tell her right before her last day at Sterling Cooper that she can no longer quit? 

 

That's an interesting take on Betty.  I thought some of her behavior was weird, but to me, that was more because of her general immaturity and childishness than just being a strange person.  I mean, one of my favorite scenes was Dr. Edna having her session with Betty and trying very gently to guide her to a psychiatrist that worked with adults, but seemingly realizing that Betty couldn't handle that and agreeing to continue their sessions. 

I think the weirdest Betty scene for me was when she asked jokingly Henry if he wanted to rape one of Sally's friend and she would hold her down. It was during the "Fat Betty" phase. It made me realize that her sense of humor was definitely out there...may even to a questionable degree.

It was a given back then that when a woman got married she would stop working. My friend's grandmother worked as a clerk/secretary for a major magazine and they took her engagement announcement as her two month notice. It was thought that now a man can support you financially so now you can leave your job for another so another self supporting single lady can have your job.

Joan not being able to quit was further indication that Greg would be a failure at providing the lifestyle she thought she wanted. I think the original poster was referring to Joan realizing, later in the series, that she was very capable in providing a good lifestyle for herself and her son on her own. and that she enjoyed being a working woman. She is a millionaire at the end of the series (I think).

I did find it strange that she never moved out of her cramped apartment.

 

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2 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I did find it strange that she never moved out of her cramped apartment.

I always found it weird that she never seemed to update anything in that apartment.  In 1970, aside from the color tv, it still looked like the kind of place a career girl would have had circa 1955.

 

7 minutes ago, qtpye said:

It was a given back then that when a woman got married she would stop working.

I would couch that by saying it was a given for some women, i.e. women of the middle and upper class, that they would stop working when they got married.  Women not so well off couldn't necessarily stop working.  For example, Roger's secretary, Caroline, was married with at least one child. 

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Just now, txhorns79 said:

I always found it weird that she never seemed to update anything in that apartment.  In 1970, aside from the color tv, it still looked like the kind of place a career girl would have had circa 1955.

 

I would couch that by saying it was a given for some women, i.e. women of the middle and upper class, that they would stop working when they got married.  Women not so well off couldn't necessarily stop working.  For example, Roger's secretary, Caroline, was married with at least one child. 

Definitely....poor or working class women have always worked to support their families. Having enough income then, as well as now, to have one person stay at home (now it can be the husband) is a bit of a privilege. 

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40 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I do agree that Joan liked working, but my impression was that she had to work due to Greg's job issues.  Doesn't he tell her right before her last day at Sterling Cooper that she can no longer quit? 

What happened, iirc, is that Joan quit SC and then came home to find out Greg hadn't gotten the residency he wanted. He told Joan she had to go back to work, but Joan couldn't go back to SC because she'd been replaced. So then she had to work at a department store (where she ran into Pete, who kept her secret--and she seemed to remember he did that). That was humiliating. So when she was called back into the office in Shut the Door, she was able to come back under much better terms--and yes, I think by then she was more able to embrace the fact that she was working and happy about that.

13 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I always found it weird that she never seemed to update anything in that apartment.  In 1970, aside from the color tv, it still looked like the kind of place a career girl would have had circa 1955.

I remember having convos about that during the show, about how it was obviously a choice to have her not only never move, but not even change the decor, which was very clearly 1950s. Especially since she wound up having plenty of money, which she spent more on jewelry and clothing than her apartment. It seemed like it was definitely meant to suggest something about Joan's psychology. I think some tried to pass it off as just the show not wanting to spend the money, but that's silly--they changed sets for plenty of other reasons. This was a choice. 

I tended to think it was something connected to her feeling like that was her own space and not feeling confident enough on the personal front to commit to a place that said she was a single mom forever. Like part of her was still waiting for the dream marriage--but also I think she maybe had real affection for the place. She starts out living there with a roommate, then on her own, then her husband moves in, she has a baby, her mom moves in, the husband leaves and she starts her business right out of that living room with her son watching TV there. A lot has changed in the place without repainting those salmon walls that she maybe likes. She must see lots of possibilities there in the familiar or something!

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