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Editor's Note: This topic replaces the old Mad Men forum which has been vaulted at the location below: http://forums.previously.tv/forum/262-mad-men-v/

 

Original Post from User:

Sometimes I watch an old episode and I see something that in retrospect seems telling. The first time we meet Stephanie, "The Good News" in S4, she is a student at Berkeley. She goes out to dinner with Don and Anna, and she is displeased to hear that Don works in advertising. She calls it "pollution." He tells her, "So stop buying things," and she replies, "Don't think that's not possible." Did Weiner have in mind that three seasons later we would see her living this grimy countercultural fringe existence, eating outside "all the time," et cetera?

 

In the same episode, in what turns out to be their last scene together, Anna tells Don to swim as much as possible, because it clears the mind. I had not remembered that by "The Summer Man," the first episode after her death, in which he is swimming and writing in his journal. (Not simultaneously, but you know.)  

 

In the first private scene Don and Faye share, in "Christmas Comes But Once A Year," she tells him something like, "You should know I learned everything about you I could." Right there, we might have suspected their eventual relationship would be short-lived. Indeed, their conversation is prickly throughout, and it ends with her jab about people not wanting to hear they're a "type," and him wishing her Merry Christmas with obvious irritation.   

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I was going to start a re-watch thread but calling it All Seasons is probably a better way to do it. I think a lot of us are going to be doing re-watch between the two halves of season 7. Personally I'm going to try to hold out starting until fall. I live in Wisconsin and do most of my heavy TV watching when I'm holed up in the house for the winter months!

 

I've re-watched the whole series once before, and you definitely pick up on a lot of things. The one that jumped out to me was 05.01, Lane Price telling Delores on the phone, "I'll be here for the rest of my life!" (in the office)

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I was going to start a re-watch thread but calling it All Seasons is probably a better way to do it. I think a lot of us are going to be doing re-watch between the two halves of season 7. Personally I'm going to try to hold out starting until fall. I live in Wisconsin and do most of my heavy TV watching when I'm holed up in the house for the winter months!

When we do that, we should make episode threads for all the all episodes instead of one giant thread (makes it possible for people to follow along at slightly different speeds if necessary), like in the other rewatches here. I'm definitely planning to do this too, probably in the fall.

 

This thread is good for long-term big picture things, though. :)  I like the ones @Simon Boccanegra pointed out – it's easy to miss that kind of thing when you just watch along week to week....

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When we do that, we should make episode threads for all the all episodes instead of one giant thread (makes it possible for people to follow along at slightly different speeds if necessary), like in the other rewatches here. I'm definitely planning to do this too, probably in the fall.

 

Oh that is too cool. I love this forum. :) Looking forward to it.

 

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Random Q: there are a couple of scenes throughout the show where someone observes a mouse or a roach scurrying around.  Any thoughts any thoughts on what that might be about?

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Random Q: there are a couple of scenes throughout the show where someone observes a mouse or a roach scurrying around.  Any thoughts any thoughts on what that might be about?

 

It seems to me that the occasional roach/mouse sightings are part of a larger "decline of New York" thing that started in season 4 and has ramped up. Not, of course, that one never saw roaches or mice indoors prior to 1965, but it all seems of a piece to me: more crime incidents and references in S4-S7 (Roger and Joan's mugging, "Grandma Ida," Megan's bisexual soap-queen pal defiantly walking through the park at night despite the danger, Peggy and Abe's neighborhood), more references to pollution (Megan screaming at Don not to let the poison into their apartment), of course more social unrest...just very different from the shiny '50s-hangover world of S1-S3.   

 

Seasons in order of preference, with a preliminary ranking for the not-completed one: 1 > 2 > 3 > 4 > 7 > 6 > 5.

Edited by Simon Boccanegra

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Rankings! It's always interesting how everyone's are so different.

 

Mine:

 

5 > 4 > 7 (already) > 1 > 3 > 6 > 2

 

I don't like Megan at all but 5 improved for me on rewatches. So much quality.

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My season rankings would change based on the day you ask me, but today I'd go with 2>1>3>7a>5>4>6.  The first half of season 4 would rank higher than season 5, but I felt the second half of season 4 didn't live up to the first half.  And although I didn't like the overarching storyline of season 5, it has probably more of my favorite standalone episodes than anything since the first 3 seasons.

Edited by Moose Andsquirrel

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I wonder what the size of SCDP/SC&P is now (however way you want to measure it), compared to the old SC on the day they broke away.  In Shut the Door Have a Seat, Roger was wondering how long it would take them to "be in a place like this again."

 

Interestingly, even if they are bigger now, it doesn't seem like they are as powerful in society.  Roger, and especially Bert, as sole owners of a white shoe firm, were deeply plugged into upper echelons of NYC society.  I feel like the firm and its principals have taken a hit in prestige since then.  Or perhaps it's just the new decor (from S4 on).

Edited by Haldebrandt

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My favorite Season will always be 2. The episode sequence of "3 sundays, The new girl" and "Maidenform" is what made me fall head over heels with the show. The writting on this show is always phenomenal, but I thought in this season it was especially good. I loved Peggy's, and Betty's stpry arcs this season especially, and the show still had that early 60's old fashioned patina, which I can't help but miss. Also, Bobbie Barret. I adored her.

 

Season 4 would probably come next. I liked the new, exciting, feel to this season, with the new agency, and Don as a bachelor. Don's whole downward spiral was enthralling, and it's the first time we ever got to see him become really pathetic. The new characters were great (especially Miss Blankenship, Stan and Faye) and it also had really amazing episodes. My only problem with this season was that Betty was literally written as a villain, which I hated.

 

Season 3 comes right behind it. I thought the writting, or should I say, dialogue, wasn't quite as great as the first 2, but plotwise, it was amazing, with Betty's discovery of Dons identity, the break up of their marriage, and the creation of the new agency. Just great stuff all around.

 

Season 1 was very well written, but maybe because we hadn't got to know the characters all that well and hadn't had time to warm up to them, that it seemed the season went a little slow. That being said, the last 2 episodes of the season were amazing, and if it wasn't because of them I may have not bothered to continue watching the series. Not that I thought the show was bad before that, just a little cold, and boring.

 

Season 6 would be next. While it was evident to me that the show just wasn't going to be as excellent as it had been seasons 1-4, I did find it a step up from S5, and I thought the adding of a few new characters, like Ted, and the merger, livened things up a bit, and brought really new, and interesting character dynamics. I thought Sylvia was a bore, but I liked Arnie alot, and his friendship with Don. I also loved the end of fat Betty, and the Betty/Don "reconciliation".And Megan no longer ate the show.

 

Season 5 is still my least favorite because of Megan, and Megan and Don eating the show. I never found her interesting, no matter how the show tried to make her so. I also wasn't a fan of the "Joan sleeps with Jaguar" storyline, I thought it was soapy, melodramatic, and that it didn't fit the show. It felt like something out of "Melrose place" or something. Also, Fat Betty pissed me off, because it seemed like a meta dig at her character. There were a few excellent stand alone episodes, like "Signal 30" or "Faraway Places", and a couple of others, but the season as a whole left me sort of cold.

 

I will refrain from ranking this past mini season because it really didn't feel like a complete season to me.Based on these first 7 episodes it would probably go somewhere between season 6 and 1.

Edited by Bawoman
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My ranking: 3>2>4>1>5>6.  I love season two and three, but season one is kind of slow-moving, just because they were setting everything in motion.  Season four is great, and I like season five because a ton of things happened that became important later.  Season six is mostly a downer for me.

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It's hard to pick a season.  Instead, some general thoughts: 

 

- S1-4 are generally but not significantly superior to S5-7A.

- S4 is right up there with S1-3 IMO.  It lacks that wonderful "culture shock" feel of previous seasons, but makes up for it in other ways.  The Waldorf Stories/The Suitcase/The Summer Man mini arc is the heart of the season.

- I don't mind Megan/Pare so I enjoyed S5.  But Lane's death somehow retroactively casts a gloom on the whole thing.

- S6 may be my least favorite though still an excellent season of TV.  In particular, the merger made for a thrilling episode of TV, but I would have preferred to see Peggy thrive and/or struggle elsewhere rather than be back under Don.  Ted is a great and welcome addition to the regular cast, but he could have had just as much screen time had the companies remained separate.  And it might have been nice to see how things were done in another agency.  The show touched on that with Peggy's professional relationship with Ted and her underlings, and more of that would have been nice.

- Absolute least favorite scenes/subplots have to be anything concerning Peggy's family (and priest) and Betty's own family (her father, bother, etc.).

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I thought Sylvia was a bore, but I liked Arnie alot,

 

For me, it was the other way around. Arnie never came into sharp enough focus for me to find him interesting. The actor was good, but they only had him on screen enough to establish an outline of decency and hard work. I thought Cardellini was exceptionally good as Sylvia, who was tricky to play, one of those characters full of contradictions and mixed messages that can make you check out on them, but somehow she pulled it together and I really liked that character. The episode that did it for me was the one early on in which Megan confides about the miscarriage. Intellectually, I knew I should have had sympathy for Megan in that scene. She was the one crying, and it was pretty awful that she was confiding this in her husband's mistress, and the mistress even laid Catholic shame on her for daring to consider abortion. But Cardellini was so much fuller and subtler than Paré that she made me feel Sylvia was the protagonist of the scene. 

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I was surprised since I thought Arnie would play a much bigger part than he did. I thought the affair with Sylvia was just a plot device for A. there to be tension between Dick and his friend, or B. IF Dick had a heart attack (which I remember we all thought would happen), things would be weird for Arnie to help him. It turns out he had no purpose whatsoever.

Edited by Geeni
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I looked at the Arnie/Don friendship as a way for Weiner have his author-insert characters (his fictional "realistic" self vs. the idealized leading man version) interact, but that interpretation is a bit meta...

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IF Dick had a heart attack (which I remember we all thought would happen),

 

I would be careful about "we all" statements -- this was not universally expected.  And I think Arnie served as much purpose as any peripheral MM character.   I took Don's willingness to help Mitchell as a reflection of the esteem he felt for Arnie.  Ironically, this act led him back into the arms of Sylvia, to disastrous results for Sally, but a key development in Sally and Don's relationship.

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I looked at the Arnie/Don friendship as a way for Weiner have his author-insert characters (his fictional "realistic" self vs. the idealized leading man version) interact, but that interpretation is a bit meta...

 

First of all, I love this insight.

 

Second, if I learned that Weiner does see himself as anything like Arnie realistically, I would retreat to my room and I would laugh and laugh into a pillow until some people came to get me. I know they cast an actor one may find unremarkable-looking on the street, but he was written so showily Down to Earth (despite the advertised medical brilliance) and filled with Perspective and Humility -- none of the first words I think of when I hear or read Weiner speak. If he were intended as an alter ego, it was "rich" in both senses: fascinating to unpack, and amusing for how hard Weiner tried to present a talented but otherwise ordinary man and ended up with someone arguably more idealized and self-flattering than the Don version. "But he's bald and Jewish and not a chick magnet! This is me as I truly am!" 

 

Third, I do think he mostly existed to get us to the Sylvia relationship and to give us a Don mistress with a different twist. Except for Bobbie, we had never really seen Don involved with a married woman, and Bobbie and Jimmy read more as a business relationship between people who stayed together because they benefited from and needed each other -- it was hard to see them as affectionate in a traditional-family way. Right on schedule, Don got unrealistic about the Sylvia affair, seizing on an overheard shouting match and Sylvia's expressed and understandable fear of discovery as an opportunity to play white knight ("Are you afraid of him?"), as if Arnie were abusive, which was actually pretty funny. Don often seems to do something like that with his women on the side. However briefly, he inflates these tawdry, furtive episodes into love (asking Rachel to run away with him, planning a vacation with Suzanne) and tries to write a next chapter without seeing that even if he does get the woman to go along with him, it's hard to imagine a next chapter beyond that one. Then when it crashes and burns, he is upset for a few minutes. I don't think I'm especially easy to please in the sense of thinking writing is good just because it's consistent, but the Don consistency, even within the different parameters, is much of what made the Sylvia relationship interesting to me.  

 

I had never realized until now that "Arnold" is another of the show's paired names. It was the first name of the aloof, duplicitous Freudian whom Betty went to see in the first season.  

Edited by Simon Boccanegra
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I would be careful about "we all" statements -- this was not universally expected. 

 

Ha. Was gonna say the same but ended up just keeping quiet.  But now I can talk!

 

Yeah, the thought never crossed my mind.  And no offense, but if I had come across it, even back then, I would have rejected it as patently absurd.  Conveniently introduce a heart surgeon just in time for someone to have a heart attack?  Mad Men has never operated that way, and has never relied on this sort of plot mechanic ("hey, person X has skill Y, I'm sure it will come into play at some point at a critical moment") to advance the story.

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Do you think Weiner will continue to subvert tropes or cave and go full Chekov with that one prop?

 

Given the era of the show, I always figured Pete /Chekhov's gun was a Hitchcock-ian MacGuffin.

Edited by film noire
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Given the era of the show, I always figured Pete /Chekhov's gun was a Hitchcock-ian MacGuffin.

 

 

To be a MacGuffin it would have to be something everyone wanted without us knowing what it did or was.

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To be a MacGuffin it would have to be something everyone wanted without us knowing what it did or was.

 

Technically, sure -- but I think Weiner feels free to subvert the letter of the law on any trope -- even more so if it were misdirection about misdirection (i.e., we in the audience are the ones chasing the MacGuffin, not the characters themselves).

Edited by film noire
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I agree with you, though it is interesting that there's a pretty strong contingent that is certain that Pete's gun has to come back into the forefront in some significant way during the back seven. Do you think Weiner will continue to subvert tropes or cave and go full Chekov with that one prop?

Nah.  I rather think a gun is just a gun. Even though the chip n dip is one of the most bizarre subplots of the whole series.

 

Edited by Haldebrandt
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Even though the chip n dip is one of the most bizarre subplots of the whole series.

 

I found that same chip-n-dip at an antique shop two years ago and snatched it up for $45 (which would have been less than $6 in Pete's time...although the $25 price tag then would make it nearly $200 now...ugh!). I love it so much, just because it reminds me of that episode, Pete's enthusiasm for French onion dip, and his smarminess at the department store.

Edited by SinInTheCamp
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I took Don's willingness to help Mitchell as a reflection of the esteem he felt for Arnie.  Ironically, this act led him back into the arms of Sylvia, to disastrous results for Sally, but a key development in Sally and Don's relationship.

 

I'd disagree.  I think Don did respect Arnie, but helping Mitchell was all about Sylvia and reaching out to her.   

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Seasons best to worst for me are 2,3,1,4, 7,5,6. 

 

I am going to miss all the 1960s tchotskies that I see on the show. The set decorators did a great job of finding or creating memorabilia of the day.

My parents had the  glasses with the gold leaves that the Drapers had and were also in the office. The diamond shaped wood chess piece plaques that were in Don's apartment hung in my parents family room. The Drapers kitchen and family room were like a hundred I visited in my childhood. We had that knotty pine wood paneling in our family room. My parents had fondue parties,just like Megan and Don did. Even those fugly moasic things on Peggy's wall in her living room I swear I saw. And a million other little details from lunch boxes to princess phones. Such a blast from the past. I'm going to miss it

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Kartheiser's commentary on "Red In The Face" was very funny. Apparently the Chip 'N' Dip was Weiner's mother's, and everyone had to be very careful of it. He talked about how it had its own trailer, support staff, and key light, or something -- it's been a while. I am sure I am not doing justice to VK's deadpan hilarity. You all have the DVDs, I am sure.  

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In S3's "The Arrangements," three of the office guys (some combination of Sal, Kenny, Paul, and Harry) stop at Allison's desk to get an idea of whether this is a good time to talk to Don about something, what his mood is. Her response (lightly delivered) is that she's never right about him. Foreshadowing! (Probably not. Still.) 

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In Don's penthouse bedroom there's a metallic wall hanging behind the bed that's in the form of a bough or several boughs - leaves, branches, etc.

 

I've noticed a more anemic version of this hanging in Joan's apartment. Just smaller and more sparse. But then recently I saw a screen cap of Betty sitting on her old couch, watching television with Glen, and I'd swear the curved metalic branch/leaves hanging above that couch is the same one as in Joan's apartment. Mad Men seems so meticulous I can't imagine them recycling, but that's what it looks like to me.

 

I think what I enjoy the most, visually, is the decor, particularly the home accessories, prints, etc.

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Not only did my parents have the chip and dip set, but they had the little green ceramic spoon! Weiner's mom must have lost or broken her spoon somewhere along the line. And my mom had the set of four mixing bowls Betty has (largest one is yellow, then green, red and the smallest is blue). 

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From the Betty thread:

 

The other was that the casting of Ryan Cutrona was in any way politically motivated. John McCain's White House run was in progress in 2007-08, and some viewers read something sinister or at least agenda-driven into this near-lookalike portraying a forgetful, unstable character who is one step away from needing total care.

 

Interesting. I hadn't made that connection, but of course there was the "Romney's a clown" or something to that effect during Season 5 (?), which aired in 2012. Any more examples of this kind of stuff? Not in any way wanting this thread to get political, but that one seemed pretty deliberate. :)

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I don't think the "Romney's a clown" was necessarily meant as a dig at Mitt.  I think it was a name that would be recognizable to a modern audience, but would also be someone that a Republican operative working for Rockefeller would legitimately see as a rival.  I think it fit into the story naturally.

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From the Stan Rizzo thread:


Quote
Re: Mad Men as a soap opera. The topic comes up a lot. I've always been on the "nay" side of the argument. Understand that it isn't anything defensive or condescending. I can enjoy soap operas. I liked Knots Landing; I liked Melrose Place when it was good for a few years; I've even fitfully watched some daytime shows. However, there seem to me to be levels that Mad Men gets into that I didn't see on any of those, and to me, a soap is more than just a show that is serialized and has romantic story. The Sopranos was serialized and had romantic story. So was The Wire. And The West Wing.

 

 

When I hear people writing off Mad Men (and similar shows, like Six Feet Under) as just a soap opera, I think many of them are just minimizing the value of shows that explore more traditionally feminine issues such as gender roles and work/life balance and family/marriage issues.  It's like another way of saying that women's interests aren't as significant as men's interests.  Even though shows like The Sopranos and Breaking Bad have the same serialized and romantic structure, they have more cops-and-robbers themes and gratuitous violence which is seen as more masculine and therefore more valid to certain segments of the audience.  Yes, Peggy's blocked-out pregnancy was more like a traditional soap opera, but so was Livia manipulating her brother-in-law to murder her son (first season of The Sopranos), yet few people put down The Sopranos as just a soap opera.

Edited by Moose Andsquirrel
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 Peggy's blocked-out pregnancy was more like a traditional soap opera

 

Except that in a soap, Peggy's son would show up 7 seasons later as a strapping 20-year-old who falls for his half-sister, Tammy Campbell, a comely lass who is now 17 years old.  :-)

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He would also be a superficially eager-to-please new employee of the firm, who secretly wants to destroy Pete and Peggy because he was given up for adoption.  

 

Bob Benson should have been Pete and Peggy's son! Heh.  

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When I hear people writing off Mad Men (and similar shows, like Six Feet Under) as just a soap opera, I think many of them are just minimizing the value of shows that explore more traditionally feminine issues such as gender roles and work/life balance and family/marriage issues.

 

I agree. What exactly defines a soap opera? If it's romantic drama and gender roles and family issues, wouldn't that make 99% of ALL shows on TV right now a soap opera?

 

 

Bob Benson should have been Pete and Peggy's son! Heh.

 

AND Don's evil, long-lost twin! At the same time!

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I'm doing a rewatch during this break.  About 2/3 through Season 3 now.

 

Sometimes I think I'll rewatch this show once a year for some time to come.

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I did a full rewatch last winter so I'm trying to make myself hold off a bit before starting another, but I know I'll do it. My rule with myself is that baseball has to be over before I can rewatch Mad Men! Let's see if I can do it. :)

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Does anyone know who the audience is for Mad Men? I don't mean what your educated guess is. I mean, has anyone read what the actual stats (wrong word ... ? ... demographic ?) are? Curious to know the age group, gender, income level, education, etc. 

 

I remember reading this a few months ago. http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/tv-ratings-mad-men-gets-697629

 

Excluding pay cable, the episode retains Mad Men's status as having the most affluent audience in TV. Fifty-four percent of its adult viewers 25-54 earn north of $100,000 a year.

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"The Wheel," "Meditations," "Shut The Door," "Tomorrowland," "The Phantom," "In Care Of," and we will count "Waterloo"...in my opinion, "The Phantom" is the worst season finale followed by "Tomorrowland."  But definitely "The Phantom." All of the other finales really made a statement, and that one was just kind of there.

 

But I have a question about it. Does anyone know what the two dogs humping at the end was supposed to symbolize? Was it supposed to mean the old Don was back, and he would be doing it like an animal the next time we saw him? Because it was followed right after by the woman at the bar asking him if he was alone, and then in the next season, he was diddling the neighbor. I know it sounds like I am joking, but I mean it, I have been trying to figure out why that was there ever since it was on.  

Edited by Asp Burger

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But I have a question about it. Does anyone know what the two dogs humping at the end was supposed to symbolize? Was it supposed to mean the old Don was back, and he would be doing it like an animal the next time we saw him?

 

 

Since it was Peggy that looked out her window and saw the dogs, I'm inclined to think it's about her, not Don.  I think it's just that she was so excited to be on her first work trip and having taken a plane for the first time, but it was just a trip to some unglamorous place with dogs humping in the parking lot.

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In "Mystery Date," Don strangles Andrea (Mädchen Amick), who is hovering over him, pushing herself on him over his objections, while he is sick in bed with a fever. Even though this is presented as a nightmare, were we supposed to think of that later with the revelations about Aimee and the young Dick Whitman in "The Crash"? There are several similarities in the scenes. 

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A place to discuss particular episodes, arcs and moments from the show's run. Please remember this isn't a complete catch-all topic -- check out the forum for character topics and other places for show-related talk.

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Picking up an earlier line of discussion, I also push back against the notion that Mad Men is mere soap opera.  This is a show where, for the most part, the regular characters do not hop into bed with one another, and rotate through a series of "they had to do that plot" episodes.  It is very subtle and well-written in its characterization of people who get what they want but are not happy.

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To me, one of the most interesting running plot lines is "Don's Past Re-Surfaces." 

 

Season 1: We learned that Don Draper wasn't really Don Draper, beginning subtly (a man on the train called him Dick Whitman) and culminating in Adam's suicide and Pete's blackmail attempt.

Season 2: Anna and Don's relationship.

Season 3: Flashbacks to the death of Archie. Betty found out about Don's double life and that hastened the end of the marriage.

Season 4: The death of Anna, offscreen in "The Suitcase." "Hands and Knees"--one of the most intense episodes of the series.

Season 5: The Season of Megadon. Don told Megan about his past--offscreen. This was one of the biggest letdowns of the series. How much did he actually tell her? We'll never know. Betty told Sally about Anna and it had zero impact on Sally and on Don.

Season 6: How Don came to Uncle Mac's whorehouse and lost his virginity there. Culmination of Don with the kids at the now-abandoned building. Beginning of a new honesty for Don?

Season 7a: Nothing. Either Don has come to terms with his past and it's no longer important, or what happened in Korea will finally come to light in 7b. Don has told people the army mixed up him and RealDon and he didn't ever correct the mistake, but has he ever said he switched the dog tags?  

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In "Mystery Date," Don strangles Andrea (Mädchen Amick), who is hovering over him, pushing herself on him over his objections, while he is sick in bed with a fever. Even though this is presented as a nightmare, were we supposed to think of that later with the revelations about Aimee and the young Dick Whitman in "The Crash"? There are several similarities in the scenes.

Good eye. I hadn't noticed the connection until your post. And when his stepmom beats the crap out of him for being with Aimee, I suppose that's meant to explain why he likes to be slapped by prostitutes.

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"The Jet Set" came up in Don's thread in a discussion of homosexuality on Mad Men and how male and female characters have reacted to it. Kurt mentions dancing beans in that episode, three seasons before the Heinz plot. What a trailblazer. It's his parting line after he comes out as gay in the break room and leaves everyone speechless. "Enjoy the dancing beans," directed at Smitty. Presumably this was an idea for Martinson's Coffee; that was their project at the time. Did the idea get lodged in Peggy's subconscious? (After writing this, I saw that Basket of Kisses got there first, while S5 was actually airing. Good catch.) 

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"The Jet Set" came up in Don's thread in a discussion of homosexuality on Mad Men and how male and female characters have reacted to it. Kurt mentions dancing beans in that episode, three seasons before the Heinz plot. What a trailblazer. It's his parting line after he comes out as gay in the break room and leaves everyone speechless. "Enjoy the dancing beans," directed at Smitty. Presumably this was an idea for Martinson's Coffee; that was their project at the time. Did the idea get lodged in Peggy's subconscious? (After writing this, I saw that Basket of Kisses got there first, while S5 was actually airing. Good catch.) 

 

That's fascinating. But that wasn't the last we saw of Kurt, was it? Did he get fired for coming out? I don't remember it that way.

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