S01.E07: I Dare You

[debraran]

4 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

I agree that Rome being put in a private room and left without medical supervision to drink the charcoal was ridiculous. But just a small point - he did not deny that he still had suicidal thoughts when asked directly by the nurse. He said nothing.

I also agree with wanting more Ron Livingston!

It doesn't seem like they consult any online sources or real doctor's for the medical info. It's not a soap opera or is that the intended outcome? I was hoping for an intelligent drama with some comedy for educating the public on some issues like suicide but with real information. Even ER had doctor's tell them about medical issues and anyone with a kidney stone or potential kidney stone is not treated that way.

I can't imagine knowing I didn't overdose and drinking charcoal to vomit.  Rome could still be depressed and not take pills. They think he's suicidal but he's left alone to drink charcoal? I'm confused. 

[HazelEyes4325]

8 hours ago, debraran said:

It doesn't seem like they consult any online sources or real doctor's for the medical info. It's not a soap opera or is that the intended outcome? I was hoping for an intelligent drama with some comedy for educating the public on some issues like suicide but with real information. Even ER had doctor's tell them about medical issues and anyone with a kidney stone or potential kidney stone is not treated that way.

1

And it's not like there is some huge plot they are trying to push through.  This isn't a drama where a medical case has to have a specific outcome so that certain things will then happen in the story (not that I really think this is an excuse for throwing reality out of the window, but I'd probably be a little more tolerant of it.  I mean, I lasted 13.5 seasons with Grey's Anatomy ...)  None of the medical missteps in this episode had any effect on what was happening in the story.  In at least one case (having an OB do the ultrasound) it actually made the scene even more clunky and less successful.  30 minutes of research would have gone a long way with this episode.

[Lady Calypso]

On 10/11/2018 at 3:33 AM, Gothish520 said:

Emergency rooms can be rough. Unless you are bleeding profusely or appear to be having a heart attack, you can wait forever for tests to be run. Gina mentioning his suicide attempt put them on the overdose possibility, and she had to give the go-ahead for treatment. I am surprised they didn't give him something for the pain though.

Yeah...but....but then they couldn't do the "HAHA Rome is crying out in pain while his friends are laughing!" scene and then the episode wouldn't be FUNNY. 

Sarcasm aside, I know that wait times in emergency rooms can be rough, but the doctor essentially said "Well, I don't know what's wrong with him but you said he's suicidal so...I guess he was trying to kill himself so....I guess we'll try charcoal?" It was a piss poor way at an attempt to have the storyline be light hearted.

On 10/11/2018 at 12:27 AM, dcubed said:

I don’t see what you see, particularly the attentive husband part.  Saying that everything he does he does for his family doesn’t mean he was there and present.  Seems to me he was there more for his friends than his wife, which she stated as well.  I suspect we’ll see more layers of the onion and he won’t come off quite so well.  To me, the little bit they’ve shown of Jon is  that he was fake...overly positive, got it all together, beloved.  His snippy attitude toward his father in law, who was clearly confused, was unattractive to me.  

I am fully expecting us to see more scenes where Jon is ignoring Delilah or not tending to her needs. I get that the distance between them seemed to be greater than anyone on the outside realized, and I get how this can be an issue.

Here's my issue with this. We've seen Jon in about three episodes. We haven't seen a flashback, or even talked that much about him as a husband, in several episodes. I'm starting to not care because I forget some of the things about Jon since they're focusing on other things. It's like the Ashley storyline. It's hard to care when the show ignores it for several episodes and then decides to throw it into an episode.

Meanwhile, it's impossible to go an episode without Delilah/Eddie being a focal point (even episode 5, with no Delilah/Eddie, had the big pregnancy reveal). This show doesn't know what it wants. It doesn't know who to villainize, who to make out to be a victim, and what story to tell. It may have an idea with the Jon/Delilah relationship, but when you go several episodes without it, it's hard to care when it IS eventually brought up. 

Plus, when the show continues to make Delilah and Eddie worse, for me, it's going to be much harder to say "Oh, THAT'S why you cheated, Delilah. It's ok. I sympathize with you for your husband ignoring you." Sure, their marriage didn't seem to be great. But, as far as we've seen, Jon was still there, at least. At the moment, we haven't seen HIS eye wandering or his dick being inserted elsewhere. So....Jon ignoring Delilah doesn't give Delilah sympathy points since she cheated. If she had an issue with Jon, maybe she should have forced a sit down to talk with him. Maybe she has, but WE DON'T KNOW IF SHE HAS since we haven't had a story about Jon in several episodes. So, for the moment, Delilah is the villain, not Jon.

[HazelEyes4325]

3 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

So, for the moment, Delilah is the villain, not Jon.

 

I snipped a lot, but I agree 100%.  What we have seen, which isn't much, did not show a neglectful husband.  Now, there may be more coming which does show that, but we haven't seen it yet. 

On the other hand, we have Delilah..who was having an affair with her husband's married best friend, who got mad when other's called her on it (I'm still in shock that Regina apologized to Delilah for being mad at Delilah!), who was kind of/sort of secretive about a pregnancy (why else would she take it at someone else's house and then do a crap job of hiding it...and did she expect Regina to claim that it was hers?), then lie at least once to Eddie about who the father is (after all, are we sure it is Eddie's?  Our only proof is that Delilah said so, and 40 minutes earlier she said it was Jon's.  I mean, I think it is probably Eddie's, but Delilah has already lied about it, so...), and is now continually lying to everyone else about it.

So, yeah, it's going to take a lot at this point for Jon to take the "villain" title away from Delilah.

ETA: Also, I'm wondering if we should give Nash credit for names here.  Jon, Eddie, Gary, Maggie, Regina etc are all pretty generic names (Rome not so much, but I don't know why that was chosen...)  But DELILAH is a loaded name.  The biblical Delilah was a seductress who manipulated and betrayed her lover.  The story is iconic in at least two faith traditions and one of the best known from the Old Testament and has been told and retold countless times in countless ways.  Now, in a better-written show, I'd be all over this.  I'm not sure if it means anything in this one, but there you go.

Edited November 12, 2018 by HazelEyes4325

[debraran]

I really want to hear more about Jon and less Eddie. His suicide was an awful way to go, not an overdose or other way, but falling from a building. For his children and family, it was a traumatic and sad event witnessed by many and I'm sure in the papers, news, etc.

His life insurance was dated 2016, so he planned his suicide for 2 years! He knew the clauses and planned it. I'm not saying you can't be depressed for years but obviously no one picked up on it. If it was mainly to escape jail and not depression, he couldn't emotionally face the looks, the trial, his kids faces, it just leads to more questions. His surly attitude with his dad might have been all from his "planning" the last 2 years.

His final note had lines like  "I know there’s nothing I can say…” and “I never stopped loving you.” That does little to clarify his mindset, but it does include instructions for Delilah to follow upon his death. So far, the only thing that’s clear about Jon’s agenda is that he clearly had one.

Maybe his call to Eddie was that he really didn't care about the affair, he was leaving them anyway and "be happy" was a blessing but that's a bit much for me.

I am disinterested in most of the plots (but do like Gary) I really want to see Ron in flashbacks more to show how they got here.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

On 11/11/2018 at 3:54 AM, debraran said:

I can't imagine knowing I didn't overdose and drinking charcoal to vomit.  Rome could still be depressed and not take pills. They think he's suicidal but he's left alone to drink charcoal? I'm confused. 

Charcoal doesn't make you vomit. It absorbs whatever is in your stomach and it's totally painless. The only side effect is that your poop turns black for less than a day (which isn't any worse than having red or blue poop if you eat brightly colored cake frosting).

[HazelEyes4325]

8 hours ago, debraran said:

I really want to hear more about Jon and less Eddie. His suicide was an awful way to go, not an overdose or other way, but falling from a building. For his children and family, it was a traumatic and sad event witnessed by many and I'm sure in the papers, news, etc.

His life insurance was dated 2016, so he planned his suicide for 2 years! He knew the clauses and planned it. I'm not saying you can't be depressed for years but obviously no one picked up on it. If it was mainly to escape jail and not depression, he couldn't emotionally face the looks, the trial, his kids faces, it just leads to more questions. His surly attitude with his dad might have been all from his "planning" the last 2 years.

His final note had lines like  "I know there’s nothing I can say…” and “I never stopped loving you.” That does little to clarify his mindset, but it does include instructions for Delilah to follow upon his death. So far, the only thing that’s clear about Jon’s agenda is that he clearly had one.

Maybe his call to Eddie was that he really didn't care about the affair, he was leaving them anyway and "be happy" was a blessing but that's a bit much for me.

I am disinterested in most of the plots (but do like Gary) I really want to see Ron in flashbacks more to show how they got here.

I'm not convinced that the life insurance policy is proof that he was planning his suicide.  People get life insurance all the time, it could have been nothing more than that.  It could also have been a safeguard if he knew he was entering a risky business deal that could go horribly wrong.  Or maybe he was planning...we just don't know, because the show seems to have forgotten that Jon ever existed.

I will say this: I don't want to find out that Jon killed himself only to get out of a bad business deal.  I think that would be a horrible cop-out.  Now, I could see a scenario where he got so in over his head in business that it led to a depression that led to suicide. 

Yeah, I still don't think the "love each other" message had anything whatsoever to do with Eddie and Delilah.  Instead, I think he tried to call the one person who would take whatever he said at face value without suspecting anything or questioning him (and wouldn't try to talk him out of anything) to give his final goodbye to the people in his life.  Let's face it, if he had called Rome or Gary (or even Regina) and said, "Love each other," they'd know something was up.  Not Eddie, though....

Edited November 12, 2018 by HazelEyes4325

[possibilities]

The thing about the 2 years indicating planning, is that most life insurance will not pay if you commit suicide within a short time after you buy the policy. So the date makes it look like he wanted to off himself for a while, and waited until he knew it wouldn't invalidate the life insurance and leave his family without cash.

I just thought of another reason besides depression or legal trouble: maybe Jon had an illness like Huntingtons or cancer, and he wanted to check out before it progressed too far. That would tie into Maggie's story, too.

Edited November 12, 2018 by possibilities

[HazelEyes4325]

1 minute ago, possibilities said:

The thing about the 2 years indicating planning, is that most life insurance will not pay if you commit suicide within a short time after you buy the policy. So the date makes it look like he wanted to off himself for a while, and waited until he knew it wouldn't invalidate the life insurance and leave his family without cash.

I just thought of another reason besides depression or legal trouble: maybe Jon had an illness like Huntingtons or cancer, and he wanted to check out before it progressed too far. That would tie into Maggie's story, too.

1

I hadn't realized that about life insurance, but I guess that would make sense.  I don't know if it is conclusive proof, but it does add more credence to that theory.

I'm not sure if I want it to come out that Jon had an illness. It's not that I think that's unrealistic or even a bad plot, but I think it would be beyond these writers' abilities to write it well.  It's not actually death with dignity, but it's close and that is a VERY touchy subject to some people...people who probably don't see a problem with someone choosing not to seek treatment but would rail against someone actively ending their own life in the face of a terminal illness.  Again, not a bad storyline, but not an easy one and I think it is probably above Nash's ability level.

[doodlebug]

22 minutes ago, HazelEyes4325 said:

I hadn't realized that about life insurance, but I guess that would make sense.  I don't know if it is conclusive proof, but it does add more credence to that theory.

I'm not sure if I want it to come out that Jon had an illness. It's not that I think that's unrealistic or even a bad plot, but I think it would be beyond these writers' abilities to write it well.  It's not actually death with dignity, but it's close and that is a VERY touchy subject to some people...people who probably don't see a problem with someone choosing not to seek treatment but would rail against someone actively ending their own life in the face of a terminal illness.  Again, not a bad storyline, but not an easy one and I think it is probably above Nash's ability level.

Also, considering two other members of the group are facing cancer; it seems like a lot of life threatening illnesses for one show.

I don't know that he was necessarily planning suicide, but if Jon was messed up in some crooked investments with some shady characters, I could see him buying extra life insurance to protect his family in case anything happened with those deals since there were bad guys involved. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, possibilities said:

The thing about the 2 years indicating planning, is that most life insurance will not pay if you commit suicide within a short time after you buy the policy. So the date makes it look like he wanted to off himself for a while, and waited until he knew it wouldn't invalidate the life insurance and leave his family without cash.

I just thought of another reason besides depression or legal trouble: maybe Jon had an illness like Huntingtons or cancer, and he wanted to check out before it progressed too far. That would tie into Maggie's story, too.

Going by the dates in the first two episodes Jon died exactly 2 years and 2 days after he bought the life insurance policy. The suicide clause is usually 2 years so Nash at least wanted to suggest that Jon deliberately waited out the 2 years. The strange thing is that the insurance shown on the show only lists his friends as beneficiaries rather than Delilah or his kids. As successful as Jon has been shown to be you would think that he would have already had a policy that benefited his family. 

[debraran]

4 minutes ago, Dani said:

Going by the dates in the first two episodes Jon died exactly 2 years and 2 days after he bought the life insurance policy. The suicide clause is usually 2 years so Nash at least wanted to suggest that Jon deliberately waited out the 2 years. The strange thing is that the insurance shown on the show only lists his friends as beneficiaries rather than Delilah or his kids. As successful as Jon has been shown to be you would think that he would have already had a policy that benefited his family. 

That's why the speculation was that he did it on purpose, unless he amended it later. It is odd there is a rule about suicide and they show a date a little after 2 years.

I just hope the rest of his story is better told with more realism.

[TheLastKidPicked]

3 hours ago, HazelEyes4325 said:

I will say this: I don't want to find out that Jon killed himself only to get out of a bad business deal.  I think that would be a horrible cop-out.  Now, I could see a scenario where he got so in over his head in business that it led to a depression that led to suicide. 

I agree with you on this, but your second point would be more realistic.  It's not one bad business deal, it's Jon getting in so deep that he thinks there is no getting out.  IF this was because of business or financial problems then I will have a hard time forgiving him for leaving his kids without a father. 

[HazelEyes4325]

8 minutes ago, TheLastKidPicked said:

I agree with you on this, but your second point would be more realistic.  It's not one bad business deal, it's Jon getting in so deep that he thinks there is no getting out.  IF this was because of business or financial problems then I will have a hard time forgiving him for leaving his kids without a father. 

Right...I don't think I was clear in my original post.  

What I don't want to see: Jon was over his head in business and killed himself to escape the consequences and/or to protect his family

What would be more realistic (and what I wouldn't mind): Jon was over his head in business and became depressed about it.

Unfortunately, while the second scenario is much more realistic, the first is more "dramatic" (tongue firmly in cheek) and, given the choice, I bet this show would take option #1.

[debraran]

I have heard of men killing themselves after losing their money in the stock market or other ways.  There are financial losses and then there are illegal things like ripping people off which we have seen in the past, schemes that cost thousands and millions of dollars for some.

He might have thought he would be leaving his kids for 15-20 years and being in a cage wasn't something he wanted. It also would leave his wife without any money especially if he had to pay something back. Life insurance in other names would.

Edited November 12, 2018 by debraran

[TheLastKidPicked]

35 minutes ago, HazelEyes4325 said:

What I don't want to see: Jon was over his head in business and killed himself to escape the consequences and/or to protect his family

You were clear, I was just reading too fast.

And you are right, there must be more to this than business or financial problems, right?

14 minutes ago, debraran said:

He might have thought he would be leaving his kids for 15-20 years and being in a cage wasn't something he wanted. It also would leave his wife without any money especially if he had to pay something back. Life insurance in other names would.

Debraran, that is a very good point and I hadn't thought of that.  And it would explain why Ashley has been secretive about some of Jon's papers.

Edited November 12, 2018 by TheLastKidPicked

[possibilities]

Maybe the life insurance policy for his friends is separate from the one for his family that presumably he would have had for many years already.

However, for any life insurance policy, the beneficiaries are going to have to find out about it and start to receive the money, for it to make any difference. Isn't there a lawyer involved in distributing the estate? Why has there been NO mention of probate or a will or anything? Does Ashley really think she can hide everything forever? Surely as we approach the mid-season finale, this part of the story is going to blow up.

Edited November 13, 2018 by possibilities

[tennisgurl]

On 11/11/2018 at 5:48 PM, Lady Calypso said:

Plus, when the show continues to make Delilah and Eddie worse, for me, it's going to be much harder to say "Oh, THAT'S why you cheated, Delilah. It's ok. I sympathize with you for your husband ignoring you."

Yeah, I still dont the show trying to make us feel bad for Delilah and Eddie. The two of them were awful for what they did, and the excuses are just petty and sound like what they are, excuses. I do feel a little bad for Eddie, as it seems like he is more into her than she is into him. If Jon hadn't died, I dont know if Delilah would have actually left Jon. I dont think she had this great romance with Eddie, I think she was bored and feeling restless, and having an affair with her husbands friend was exciting, and he gave her the attention that she wanted. It seems like Eddie was really in love, while Delilah was having a midlife crisis, and Eddie was her corvette. 

[Clanstarling]

12 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

It seems like Eddie was really in love, while Delilah was having a midlife crisis, and Eddie was her corvette.

HAH! You nailed it on the head.

[HazelEyes4325]

13 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

It seems like Eddie was really in love, while Delilah was having a midlife crisis, and Eddie was her corvette. 

1

Yup.

Although I do question how "in love" Eddie was.  It's not that I don't think his feelings were genuine, but I just don't think Eddie is mature enough to truly love someone in a romantic way.  Let us not forget that he wanted to reconcile with Katherine in the midst of all this.  I honestly think, for Eddie, love is what someone can do for him.  Katherine was busy working and providing for the family, therefore she didn't love him.  Delilah tells him he's great and he's head over heels in love with her.  But what does he do for either Katherine or Delilah?  We still don't know about his history with Katherine, but he seems to have been just a diversion for Delilah...but he can't see that because he lacks any emotional maturity.

[twoods]

The highlight was James singing. I love 80’s music! Now I want to go watch the Psych episode “American Duos” so I can see him sing again. 

Great, the baby is Eddie’s. 

I like Katherine’s coworker. I liked him in a TV movie and hope to see more of him soon. More Katherine, less Delilah please.

[Booney]

I watched episodes 6 and 7 tonight, so I’m caught up. And now I’m officially hate-watching this show. My list of pet peeves is long, but #1 on my list is Delilah. The world’s worst widow. The world’s most disengaged mother (and she’s having another kid!). Television’s messiest hair - can she comb her hair in at least one episode? When I’m so annoyed that I’m looking away from the show to watch an insipid host sell a foot massager on QVC, you know it’s bad.

[Gothish520]

20 hours ago, Booney said:

I watched episodes 6 and 7 tonight, so I’m caught up. And now I’m officially hate-watching this show. My list of pet peeves is long, but #1 on my list is Delilah. The world’s worst widow. The world’s most disengaged mother (and she’s having another kid!). Television’s messiest hair - can she comb her hair in at least one episode? When I’m so annoyed that I’m looking away from the show to watch an insipid host sell a foot massager on QVC, you know it’s bad.

I like Delilah's messy hair,  lol. I think she's a very attractive woman and I love her accent. Her motives? Well, that remains to be seen, but I just don't hate these characters the way everyone else seems to. I just see a bunch of flawed human beings making mistakes, some of them pretty bad. But I find the psychology of it all fascinating. And I'm pulling for these folks.

[HazelEyes4325]

23 hours ago, Booney said:

I watched episodes 6 and 7 tonight, so I’m caught up. And now I’m officially hate-watching this show. My list of pet peeves is long, but #1 on my list is Delilah. The world’s worst widow. The world’s most disengaged mother (and she’s having another kid!). Television’s messiest hair - can she comb her hair in at least one episode? When I’m so annoyed that I’m looking away from the show to watch an insipid host sell a foot massager on QVC, you know it’s bad.

I was talking with a friend today who gave up this show after episode 6 because of Delilah.  She said she could deal with all the other flaws in this show except Delilah (and the "precious life," as all that would do is give us more Delilah) and we discussed why she is such an unsuccessful character for so many people.  Is it the character or the actress?

Do I think that another actress could have made Delilah more likable?  Actually, no.  I think she is written in a way that just doesn't work if the goal (as it seems to be) is for her to be the heroine of the show and as long as we are supposed to be rooting for her, she's not going to "work."  Now, if Nash had written her in a different way--basically to make her the antagonist (not the villain--they are different things!), I do think that a better actress could really make something of her, but not Szostak.

Szostak is not the reason Delilah is unlikable, but she is the reason why she's unbelievable.  She never really seems to interact with her co-stars.  Instead, it's like she's in a room saying lines and they are in the same room saying lines (but none of her co-stars have this problem with each other, so we can't lay this on them).  Often, too often, the way in which she delivers her lines don't seem to have any connection to the scene and it is just jarring and completely ruins the scene in which it happens.

I find all of this disturbing.  On one hand, there is no reason for her to be written so badly.  On the other, there REALLY is no reason for her to be performed so badly.  The entertainment industry has thousands of talented actresses looking for work and I don't understand why this one was given this role.

[Booney]

18 minutes ago, HazelEyes4325 said:

I was talking with a friend today who gave up this show after episode 6 because of Delilah.  She said she could deal with all the other flaws in this show except Delilah (and the "precious life," as all that would do is give us more Delilah) and we discussed why she is such an unsuccessful character for so many people.  Is it the character or the actress?

Do I think that another actress could have made Delilah more likable?  Actually, no.  I think she is written in a way that just doesn't work if the goal (as it seems to be) is for her to be the heroine of the show and as long as we are supposed to be rooting for her, she's not going to "work."  Now, if Nash had written her in a different way--basically to make her the antagonist (not the villain--they are different things!), I do think that a better actress could really make something of her, but not Szostak.

Szostak is not the reason Delilah is unlikable, but she is the reason why she's unbelievable.  She never really seems to interact with her co-stars.  Instead, it's like she's in a room saying lines and they are in the same room saying lines (but none of her co-stars have this problem with each other, so we can't lay this on them).  Often, too often, the way in which she delivers her lines don't seem to have any connection to the scene and it is just jarring and completely ruins the scene in which it happens.

I find all of this disturbing.  On one hand, there is no reason for her to be written so badly.  On the other, there REALLY is no reason for her to be performed so badly.  The entertainment industry has thousands of talented actresses looking for work and I don't understand why this one was given this role.

I agree with your thoughts on the character, and the actress. Even though it irks me that we’re supposed to embrace the character of Delilah, the actress is even more problematic for me. She’s really pretty awful - very one-dimensional,  not showing much (any?) range. There’s been discussion here about her in-and-out French accent so I won’t belabor the point, but this drives.me.crazy. I don’t get it either why she was cast, particularly since the rest of the cast is pretty good and fit well with their roles. I don’t think she has chemistry with any of the other actors, which is glaring in a show that is presumedly all about the chemistry within this supposedly tight knit group. She’s a dud, and she’s dragging the show down for me.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, HazelEyes4325 said:

I was talking with a friend today who gave up this show after episode 6 because of Delilah.  She said she could deal with all the other flaws in this show except Delilah (and the "precious life," as all that would do is give us more Delilah) and we discussed why she is such an unsuccessful character for so many people.  Is it the character or the actress?

Do I think that another actress could have made Delilah more likable?  Actually, no.  I think she is written in a way that just doesn't work if the goal (as it seems to be) is for her to be the heroine of the show and as long as we are supposed to be rooting for her, she's not going to "work."  Now, if Nash had written her in a different way--basically to make her the antagonist (not the villain--they are different things!), I do think that a better actress could really make something of her, but not Szostak.

Szostak is not the reason Delilah is unlikable, but she is the reason why she's unbelievable.  She never really seems to interact with her co-stars.  Instead, it's like she's in a room saying lines and they are in the same room saying lines (but none of her co-stars have this problem with each other, so we can't lay this on them).  Often, too often, the way in which she delivers her lines don't seem to have any connection to the scene and it is just jarring and completely ruins the scene in which it happens.

I agree with you that the writing makes her unlikeable and the actress makes her unbelievable. There have been Delilah moments that where a stronger actress would have made me feel sympathy for her but Szostak just can’t pull it off. Purely from a writing standpoint I actually find Eddie and Gary to be more unlikeable than Delilah. James Roday and David Giuntoli are so good that the are able to Gary and Eddie more likeable then they should be.  Szostak magnifies the writing issues while the rest of the cast minimizes them. 

2 hours ago, HazelEyes4325 said:

 

I find all of this disturbing.  On one hand, there is no reason for her to be written so badly.  On the other, there REALLY is no reason for her to be performed so badly.  The entertainment industry has thousands of talented actresses looking for work and I don't understand why this one was given this role.

This is a the problem I have had with multiple show over the years. It drives me crazy when show runners can’t seem to realize that a character is not working and refuses to course correct. 

[HazelEyes4325]

7 minutes ago, Dani said:

This is a the problem I have had with multiple show over the years. It drives me crazy when show runners can’t seem to realize that a character is not working and refuses to course correct. 

 

Not only do they refuse to course correct, they think making the character even more prominent will somehow make it work and make the audience love said character.

In all my TV viewing years, I have seen this happen countless times and it has never worked.

[Gothish520]

5 minutes ago, Dani said:

This is a the problem I have had with multiple show over the years. It drives me crazy when show runners can’t seem to realize that a character is not working and refuses to course correct. 

Not working for some maybe, but not all. I think the actress is doing a perfectly fine job. And I don't get why people complain about her accent. She has a French accent. It's there, I hear it whenever she speaks. It may not always be as strong depending on the word or phrase or the emotion of a scene, but it's definitely there. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

5 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

I don't get why people complain about her accent. She has a French accent. It's there, I hear it whenever she speaks. It may not always be as strong depending on the word or phrase or the emotion of a scene, but it's definitely there. 

I have no issue with her accent and I don't need an explanation for it either. Not everyone who lives in the United States was born here. I'm perfectly fine assuming that she grew up in a French speaking country without the characters mentioning it.

[Clanstarling]

8 hours ago, HazelEyes4325 said:

Not only do they refuse to course correct, they think making the character even more prominent will somehow make it work and make the audience love said character.

In all my TV viewing years, I have seen this happen countless times and it has never worked.

Am I hearing echoes of disgruntled Grimm and/or Sleepy Hollow viewer? ;)

[Lady Calypso]

11 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

Not working for some maybe, but not all. I think the actress is doing a perfectly fine job. And I don't get why people complain about her accent. She has a French accent. It's there, I hear it whenever she speaks. It may not always be as strong depending on the word or phrase or the emotion of a scene, but it's definitely there. 

Before the show itself mentioned that Delilah had family in France, I wasn't sure if her mild accent was character-related or if the actress wasn't able to mask it. If they let her embrace her natural accent, then there's no issue there. 

I think the only thing that really would have lessened my dislike of Delilah (not hate, since it takes a lot for me to genuinely hate a character) would have been characters calling her out on her affair, so most of my problems with Delilah stem from shitty writing. If they had people call her out, then it could have helped a lot. As it is, they've ignored the affair problem, which came out about three weeks ago in show time. Regina didn't talk to her for about a week but then went back to being her best friend. At least Gary gave Eddie a little bit more hate in that time....and then Gary ran right back to Delilah to be her buddy, which pisses me right off and it's the number one reason why I can't like Gary like others may. Dude's a gigantic hypocrite. He may be a great friend sometimes, but between disrespecting Maggie's wishes and not being mad at Delilah's affair, he pisses me right off. It's not that he even has to not be there for her, such as when he took her to get an abortion. It's him blatantly disregarding her role in the affair from the very beginning and has never called her out on it. 

Much like how Katherine said she could't be mad at Delilah because she lost her husband. Just like Regina listened to Delilah's excuses and accepted them. If one character, just ONE, would call her out, then it would be worth it for me. Sure, the actress isn't strong enough for me, but the writing is way, way, way worse.

[HazelEyes4325]

3 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Am I hearing echoes of disgruntled Grimm and/or Sleepy Hollow viewer? ;)

One of those, but that is by no means an exhaustive list.  Seriously, I could probably name 20 shows in the last 5 years I've seen do it and, again, none of them were successful.

6 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Much like how Katherine said she could't be mad at Delilah because she lost her husband. Just like Regina listened to Delilah's excuses and accepted them. If one character, just ONE, would call her out, then it would be worth it for me. Sure, the actress isn't strong enough for me, but the writing is way, way, way worse.

1

Good points, but this part reminded me that I needed to hate Delilah even more.  If I squinted really, really hard I could maybe see that maybe Katherine had a point.  I mean, Katherine was the one person who should have been more mad at Eddie than Delilah (she still should have been mad at Delilah.  She didn't need to yell at her BUT SHE ALSO DIDN'T NEED TO HAVE FUCKING PIZZA WITH HER!).  Everyone else--you can't tell your bud how his wife is evil, how it is great that he's having an affair, and then completely turn on him when his mistress becomes known all the while completely excusing the mistress, who happens to be the wife of your other, and recently, dead best friend.  And then somehow it was necessary for Regina to apologize to Delilah for holding Delilah accountable for a supremely shitty thing that Delilah did?  How exactly am I supposed to buy this?

But, yes, the "bad writing" is not isolated with Delilah.  Every character in this show suffers from it, but--as a character--Delilah is the worst *and* so much of the bad writing for the other characters is still in relation to Delilah.  

So, yeah, in my mind, Delilah is still the black hole that will eat this show out of existence.

6 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I have no issue with her accent and I don't need an explanation for it either. Not everyone who lives in the United States was born here. I'm perfectly fine assuming that she grew up in a French speaking country without the characters mentioning it.

My only issue with her accent is that it sometimes makes her lines hard to understand.  You can have an accent and people can still understand what you are saying.  Also, to be fair, you can also not have a foreign accent and still garble your lines.  I'm willing to forgive the accent and just blame the fact that Szostak can't deliver a line well.

[Clanstarling]

2 minutes ago, HazelEyes4325 said:

One of those, but that is by no means an exhaustive list.  Seriously, I could probably name 20 shows in the last 5 years I've seen do it and, again, none of them were successful.

True enough. For me it was so bad on one of those shows that I stopped watching, even though I liked everyone (and even loved a couple of them) except for one character who I thought they should have gotten rid of in the very first season. I broke up with the other one, because their premise and complete shift at the end of the next to the last season made me mad as hell.

Generally, I'm fairly easy. I don't hate watch, and I don't switch off because of one story line I don't like - if there's enough to keep me there. I don't care for Delilah, but as yet, she doesn't bother me enough to make me stop watching. And though they've made some stupid choices, imo, I still like it well enough to watch it the next day (when it appears on my app).

[Gothish520]

31 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Before the show itself mentioned that Delilah had family in France, I wasn't sure if her mild accent was character-related or if the actress wasn't able to mask it. If they let her embrace her natural accent, then there's no issue there. 

I think the only thing that really would have lessened my dislike of Delilah (not hate, since it takes a lot for me to genuinely hate a character) would have been characters calling her out on her affair, so most of my problems with Delilah stem from shitty writing. If they had people call her out, then it could have helped a lot. As it is, they've ignored the affair problem, which came out about three weeks ago in show time. Regina didn't talk to her for about a week but then went back to being her best friend. At least Gary gave Eddie a little bit more hate in that time....and then Gary ran right back to Delilah to be her buddy, which pisses me right off and it's the number one reason why I can't like Gary like others may. Dude's a gigantic hypocrite. He may be a great friend sometimes, but between disrespecting Maggie's wishes and not being mad at Delilah's affair, he pisses me right off. It's not that he even has to not be there for her, such as when he took her to get an abortion. It's him blatantly disregarding her role in the affair from the very beginning and has never called her out on it. 

Much like how Katherine said she could't be mad at Delilah because she lost her husband. Just like Regina listened to Delilah's excuses and accepted them. If one character, just ONE, would call her out, then it would be worth it for me. Sure, the actress isn't strong enough for me, but the writing is way, way, way worse.

They definitely have given Delilah the kid glove treatment regarding the affair, but I think it's mostly because of Jon's suicide. I would imagine that the suicide and affair are a lot to process for all of the adults, to varying degrees. Also, I imagine the adults want to protect Sophie and Danny. I feel like Regina and Gary did call her out, but it was "resolved" quite quickly. And really, Eddie only twisted in the wind for a little bit longer, and only got real flak from Gary (besides Katherine, of course).  

Plus, it is likely obvious to everyone that Delilah and Eddie have paid and will continue to pay a steep price for their actions: Katherine kicked Eddie to the curb (rightfully so), and both he and Delilah are living with the guilt as well as the knowledge that Jon probably knew about the affair. I don't believe it had anything to do with his suicide, but still, the guilt must be awful. 

That being said, I don't need to see them wringing their hands over it 24/7. Life does go on, and just because someone laughs or appears to be having a good time, doesn't mean they aren't still wrestling with emotions. (Not saying that you claimed they weren't, just a general statement, lol).

As for the writing, it's certainly not perfect, but they have me hooked so they are doing something right, in my eyes anyway. In real life, people do not always act the way others think they should, so I have no problem with inconsistent behavior in a work of fiction. I know people, in fact even related to some, lol, who say one thing and do another, or flip out over something one week and then shrug it off the next. I tend to be a very forgiving person, because holding on to anger and resentment hurts me as much as, if not more than the other person. Life is too, too short for that nonsense. Does not mean that people should not be held accountable, but carrying it on as some form of punishment towards them, well, how does that help? It most cases, it only adds more hurt.

Regarding Delilah's accent, I think it's quite common for someone who has lived in another country for a long period to find that their accent lessens, but also can come out stronger depending on circumstances.

[HazelEyes4325]

3 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

True enough. For me it was so bad on one of those shows that I stopped watching, even though I liked everyone (and even loved a couple of them) except for one character who I thought they should have gotten rid of in the very first season. I broke up with the other one, because their premise and complete shift at the end of the next to the last season made me mad as hell.

Generally, I'm fairly easy. I don't hate watch, and I don't switch off because of one story line I don't like - if there's enough to keep me there. I don't care for Delilah, but as yet, she doesn't bother me enough to make me stop watching. And though they've made some stupid choices, imo, I still like it well enough to watch it the next day (when it appears on my app).

5

I think we are of the same mind on that second show! ;-D

I don't hate-watch shows either...I just think life is too short for that (unless it is some cheesy reality show because I think the whole purpose of those is to hate-watch).  But I will be honest, if it weren't for David Giuntoli, I would be turning off this show right now.  It's not that I think he's the shining light--he's definitely doing a great job with a shit character, but I think Rome is the one who should be the shining light--but my fanship is keeping me here for him.  As you can probably surmise about what I just said two seconds ago, that fanship does have its limits.  And, honestly, it would be Delilah that is the thing that's turning me off with this show.

I guess now I'm playing a game--how long will I adore David Giuntoli more than I despise Stephanie Szostak?

Edited November 17, 2018 by HazelEyes4325

[topanga]

On 11/9/2018 at 10:59 AM, doodlebug said:

James Roday has a lot of charisma and he tends to bring out the best in his scene partners, too.  In Psych, he played the lead character who was often glib and immature and kinda selfish.  Still, he was fun to watch and it was easy to forgive his character's flaws due to his overall charm and the fact that his interactions with the other characters were so entertaining.

James Roday has great chemistry with every other actor on the show. 

 

On 11/8/2018 at 5:42 PM, Gothish520 said:

No you're not! I still wake up to the clock radio I've had for at least 20 years. Set to a station that usually wakes me up to some awesome 80's ditty. Love it.

Same here. Mine is newish—it has a CD player. I wake up every morning to Aretha Franklin’s “Jump to It.”

21 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

I like Delilah's messy hair,  lol. I think she's a very attractive woman and I love her accent. Her motives? Well, that remains to be seen, but I just don't hate these characters the way everyone else seems to. I just see a bunch of flawed human beings making mistakes, some of them pretty bad. But I find the psychology of it all fascinating. And I'm pulling for these folks.

I agree. I still like the show despite its flaws. 

Edited November 17, 2018 by topanga

[Neurochick]

Here’s my issue with this show and this episode.  The show was supposed to be about a group of friends and how they react two the suicide of one of them.  I thought I would be watching that show.  Instead, Jon seems to have vanished and the show is now a hodgepodge of everything else.  

Depression/cancer/infidelity/birth/, what does that have to do with Jon’s suicide?  If I watched just this episode, I wouldn’t know anything about Jon or why these folks are friends.  The pizza night episode was the best IMO.

[HazelEyes4325]

8 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

Here’s my issue with this show and this episode.  The show was supposed to be about a group of friends and how they react two the suicide of one of them.  I thought I would be watching that show.  Instead, Jon seems to have vanished and the show is now a hodgepodge of everything else.  

Depression/cancer/infidelity/birth/, what does that have to do with Jon’s suicide?  If I watched just this episode, I wouldn’t know anything about Jon or why these folks are friends.  The pizza night episode was the best IMO.

Jon who?

But, yeah.  Exactly.  And the thing is, there is more than enough "stuff" about the aftermath of a suicide to fill a whole show, and that is without whatever the hell Ashley is doing.  I do think the depression, cancer, and an angle of the infidelity could work in that set up (and work well), but not the way they are currently doing the show.

Edited November 18, 2018 by HazelEyes4325

[Neurochick]

I guess my issue is, this show is no longer about the aftermath of a suicide, it’s become a bad nightime soap opera.

[Gothish520]

1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

I guess my issue is, this show is no longer about the aftermath of a suicide, it’s become a bad nightime soap opera.

Jon's suicide will certainly be brought to the forefront again. Just because they went an episode or two without it being the focus doesn't mean it's been dropped. We will find out what shenanigans Ashley has been up to, as well as the true motives behind Jon's actions. Plus, everyone is still dealing with the aftermath, but as I said earlier, life goes on. I didn't think this was going to be a show based exclusively on people talking about Jon 24/7. They do have their own lives to live. I am still hoping for more Jon flashbacks, of course.

[debraran]

I want to see more of Jon too, he seems to have a certain charisma and I'd like to see how that dynamic is with the guys in flashbacks. Rome's suicide attempt is more on the forefront since it was an attempt and and can be fleshed out more which is educational. Jon's seems more of a mix, he was escaping something of his own making that included arrest/trial etc. If that didn't happen and his scheme was fine, would he of felt that way, doubtful. Not a natural inclination to hurt yourself that way but it seems the life insurance money was the motive knowing he wasn't leaving anything else. How he did it was very dramatic and although any death is awful, any suicide, that was less private and I can only imagine how his children would be processing this.  So many levels of grief.

[HazelEyes4325]

14 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I guess my issue is, this show is no longer about the aftermath of a suicide, it’s become a bad nightime soap opera.

And herein lies the problem.  This show was sold (to the audience, possibly also to the network) as a show about dealing with suicide and, in a greater view, dealing with grief.  Seven episode later, which is--what? 3 weeks later in show time?--everyone has moved on.  Gary is singing in noodle shops, Rome seems to be over the worst of his depression and that whole thing (which should be the center of all this) seems to be done as far as a story, Eddie is, well, Eddie.  And clusterfuck Delilah is over the moon about the "precious life" she created when cheating on her now dead husband.  No one actually seems to be grieving, nor have they since about the 3rd episode.  And I do get that both Rome and Eddie have had other, more pressing things in their life, but Gary seems to a-okay with everything.  Even Danny seems to have moved on.  Sophie, who wasn't even in this episode, seems to be the only one dealing with any grief. 

And Delilah.  Just...ugh.  Fuck Delilah.  She's not a grieving widow.  Hell, she's not even a *guilty* widow.  And somehow she's the center of this show.

My mother died 2 years ago, not from suicide but there was still a hell of a lot of grieving going on in my life.  If I had seen this show back then when I was going through it and saw this show and how they sort of just brushed it all aside, I probably would have been incredibly insulted and angry.  Not only is the show not delivering on what it promised, but it's also almost making a mockery of those promises.

On the positive side, though, I do think that the show could work its way back to where it needs to be.  Whether or not it would actually do that remains to be seen (and I would put money on it not doing it).  Maybe this stupid Ashley crap will bring Jon's memory and everyone's grief back to the forefront?   I mean, that at least would be some point to that story, which doesn't actually seem to fit in with the rest of the show.  Nash could get his head out of his ass about Delilah but, again, I don't see that happening either.

I really want to be wrong about my feelings about this show.  I want there to be some big revelation in the next few episodes that would put everything back on the right road.  But nothing so far has led me to believe that Nash is either interested or willing to do that.

[Gothish520]

10 hours ago, HazelEyes4325 said:

And herein lies the problem.  This show was sold (to the audience, possibly also to the network) as a show about dealing with suicide and, in a greater view, dealing with grief.  Seven episode later, which is--what? 3 weeks later in show time?--everyone has moved on.  Gary is singing in noodle shops, Rome seems to be over the worst of his depression and that whole thing (which should be the center of all this) seems to be done as far as a story, Eddie is, well, Eddie.  And clusterfuck Delilah is over the moon about the "precious life" she created when cheating on her now dead husband.  No one actually seems to be grieving, nor have they since about the 3rd episode.  And I do get that both Rome and Eddie have had other, more pressing things in their life, but Gary seems to a-okay with everything.  Even Danny seems to have moved on.  Sophie, who wasn't even in this episode, seems to be the only one dealing with any grief. 

And Delilah.  Just...ugh.  Fuck Delilah.  She's not a grieving widow.  Hell, she's not even a *guilty* widow.  And somehow she's the center of this show.

My mother died 2 years ago, not from suicide but there was still a hell of a lot of grieving going on in my life.  If I had seen this show back then when I was going through it and saw this show and how they sort of just brushed it all aside, I probably would have been incredibly insulted and angry.  Not only is the show not delivering on what it promised, but it's also almost making a mockery of those promises.

On the positive side, though, I do think that the show could work its way back to where it needs to be.  Whether or not it would actually do that remains to be seen (and I would put money on it not doing it).  Maybe this stupid Ashley crap will bring Jon's memory and everyone's grief back to the forefront?   I mean, that at least would be some point to that story, which doesn't actually seem to fit in with the rest of the show.  Nash could get his head out of his ass about Delilah but, again, I don't see that happening either.

I really want to be wrong about my feelings about this show.  I want there to be some big revelation in the next few episodes that would put everything back on the right road.  But nothing so far has led me to believe that Nash is either interested or willing to do that.

So sorry for your loss. I believe I mentioned in another post that I lost my mother about two and half years ago, so I know how much it plain sucks.

As for the show, I feel that just because they aren't shown emotionally broken down all episode, every episode, doesn't mean that the characters are just fine and dandy. Delilah has been a wreck for much of her screen time. Plus, it's been well-established that her marriage was on the rocks. That doesn't mean that she didn't love Jon and that she is not grieving his loss, but it does mean that her emotions may not be at the level of someone in a happy marriage. Of course, it could also mean that there are other emotions, i.e guilt, that may arise just as strongly as grief.

Gary is not a-ok with everything. He has certainly struggled, but he does have other things going on in his life, most notably a new relationship, as well as being a cancer survivor.

As for the kids, well children can be remarkably resilient. Case in point: My husband's uncle died of a stroke earlier this year. His twin daughters, who are around 10 or 11, I believe, were of course sad and devastated at losing their father. But a couple of weeks later, they were frolicking in the swimming pool having a good old time, while their mother sat there wondering what the hell was wrong with them. How could they be laughing and having fun? She voiced her concerns to my mother-in-law, who then told her the story of how my husband and his sister seemed to bounce back a bit too quickly in her eyes after losing their father to a sudden heart attack when they were nine and seven years old, respectively. She worried that she was raising a couple of sociopaths and dragged them to a therapist, who informed her that the kids were fine and adjusting well; SHE was the one who was having a hard time dealing with her emotions, and was projecting her feelings onto her kids.

All of this to say, that people grieve and process emotions in different ways and on different timelines. I don't expect everyone to be wringing their hands and displaying emotional devastation every episode.

[auntiemel]

On 11/16/2018 at 9:32 PM, Dani said:

Purely from a writing standpoint I actually find Eddie and Gary to be more unlikeable than Delilah. James Roday and David Giuntoli are so good that the are able to Gary and Eddie more likeable then they should be.  Szostak magnifies the writing issues while the rest of the cast minimizes them.

Yes, that's it exactly!

[HazelEyes4325]

On 11/16/2018 at 9:32 PM, Dani said:

Purely from a writing standpoint I actually find Eddie and Gary to be more unlikeable than Delilah. James Roday and David Giuntoli are so good that the are able to Gary and Eddie more likeable then they should be.  Szostak magnifies the writing issues while the rest of the cast minimizes them. 

2

 

7 hours ago, auntiemel said:

Yes, that's it exactly!

I'm of the mind that not every character has to be likable.  But, if there is an unlikable character, you need to let the audience not like them.  Putting the Delilah performance issues aside (and don't get me wrong, they are a big part of the problem, just not the whole problem...) part of the issue with Delilah is that Nash really, really wants us to like her, yet has given us every reason to dislike her.  If he would just let her be unlikable, the show would work so much better.

I don't actually *like* Eddie or Gary, but I do find them interesting (and, in Eddie's case, pleasing on the eyes) to watch.  Because of this, I have at least some interest in what happens to them.  With Delilah, I don't find her interesting, although I might if she weren't forced down my throat as if she were the second coming.

[Bethanne]

On 11/8/2018 at 5:06 PM, HazelEyes4325 said:

Well, Delilah was smiling and making new best friends on the day of her husband's funeral, so maybe she's just a psychopath.

This is my assumption. FFS, you gestate, birth, and raise two children with a man who is literally fresh in his grave and you are googly-eyed at an ultrasound hand-clenching the man who knocked you up while he was still alive? Not one tear or flashback to when you were pregnant with your other two babies with YOUR DEAD HUSBAND?? Psycho. 

On 11/9/2018 at 3:13 AM, possibilities said:

The actor who plays Delilah's son is great.

 

His dimples are adorable but he should be written as either an older teen or drop the gay crush storyline. From my personal experience with 4 kids, three of whom are tweens and teens, 11-12 year old boys are not that emotionally developed WRT relationships. 

On 11/9/2018 at 2:50 PM, HazelEyes4325 said:

I don't think Eddie can think about anything that might happen more than 2 minutes in the future, so I can see him believing that he can keep the secret even though it is perfectly clear that he can't.

I actually think Delilah can keep the secret (which will make it SO MUCH BETTER when it finally comes out).  But Delilah seems to think that "saying it's Jon's" means that Eddie will excuse himself from the picture and that is CLEARLY not going to happen.  There were a few times in this episode where Delilah kept pushing Eddie away (and he was completely clueless).  I think Delilah wants a baby...and she doesn't care who the father is.

Eddie has not developed executive function yet. Everything he does reminds me of how an 18-20 year old man would behave. Everything is about him and his needs. He and Delilah are perfect for each other. He’s a selfish baby and Delilah needs another two humans to mother to make herself feel important.

On 11/9/2018 at 5:17 PM, Dani said:

That’s the way I saw it. Eddie was hoping he can relive is rockstar days so the manager being more interested in his song than in him hurt is ego. 

 

Interestingly, he didn’t act like a douche with that other artist until the guy said he was going to tweak the bridge. Then he got all butthurt and condescending.

Edited December 6, 2018 by Bethanne

[possibilities]

8 hours ago, Bethanne said:

From my personal experience with 4 kids, three of whom are tweens and teens, 11-12 year old boys are not that emotionally developed WRT relationships. 

Some are, some aren't.

[Gothish520]

On 12/6/2018 at 7:55 AM, Bethanne said:

This is my assumption. FFS, you gestate, birth, and raise two children with a man who is literally fresh in his grave and you are googly-eyed at an ultrasound hand-clenching the man who knocked you up while he was still alive? Not one tear or flashback to when you were pregnant with your other two babies with YOUR DEAD HUSBAND?? Psycho. 

Completely normal behavior. People process and grieve in different ways.

And who's to say she theoretically didn't flash back to her other children? It's a 40 minute show, they can't have scenes that reveal every thought in every character's head.

[DearEvette]

On 11/17/2018 at 1:22 PM, Gothish520 said:

Plus, it is likely obvious to everyone that Delilah and Eddie have paid and will continue to pay a steep price for their actions: Katherine kicked Eddie to the curb (rightfully so), and both he and Delilah are living with the guilt as well as the knowledge that Jon probably knew about the affair. I don't believe it had anything to do with his suicide, but still, the guilt must be awful. 

Honestly, in my opinion the show really hasn't shown any steep price either Delilah or Eddie has paid for their affair. 

Sure Katherine kicked Eddie out, but he was making firm plans to leave her anyway.  The end result is the same, the only difference is that it didn't happen on his timeline.  Gary gave him an episode long excoriation, but Eddie is still firmly lodged in the bosom of his friends.  Gary zings him about the affair once in awhile, but still loves and supports him. Eddie hasn't been shunned, hadn't lost the love and affection of his child and even has a reward in knowing that the woman he supposedly loves is carrying his child even if they can't proclaim it to the world.

Meanwhile Delilah got two scenes of puppy dog eyes and disappointed frowns from Regina and a group cry from Katherine.  She is also still firmly lodged in the love and support of the group.  Gary never even once gave her any shit for what she did, and even jokingly asked her "Not for nothing, how upset should I be that you picked Eddie and not me?”

Even Jon gave them absolution from beyond the grave with his final voice mail to Eddie revealed in episode two: "Love Each Other"    I'll agree the show has allowed them to show some guilt, but it almost feels like wallpaper guilt.  Neither one of them feels overly affected by the guilt.  In fact I get the impression that if Delilah gave the word, Eddie would continue right on with the relationship.

Edited December 9, 2018 by DearEvette

[HazelEyes4325]

5 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

Honestly, in my opinion the show really hasn't shown any steep price either Delilah or Eddie has paid for their affair. 

1

Yeah, I'm trying to think of what actual price either of them paid for this affair.  Eddie getting his ass kicked by Gary on the ice and...that's it.  Everything else, as you said, would have happened anyway or was completely brushed under the rug.