S06.E13: Dead Things

[Joe Hellandback]

The Good; The tearful, incredibly intimate bed scene between Buffy and Dawn. Also am I the only one who is charmed by Buffy confiding in Tara who seems to have blossomed once she split up from Willow? LOVE the Buffy/Tara scene at the end, how many times have you seen a character crying on her knees begging NOT to be forgiven?

The Bad; Even with the 'happy' ending hugely depressing.

Best line; Willow; "Shimmy on out when you're done lubricating"

Women good/men bad; The Geeks show their horrid misogyny. Especially awful when they refer to Katrina's body as 'it'. We see the fault lines develop in the Troika as Andrew sides with Warren and Joanthon starts to pull away from them.

Jeez!; The killing of Katrina is just awful beyond belief

Kinky dinky; Where to begin? I've heard that SMG was no fan of the Spike/Buffy relationship, she found it demeaning and it's probably because of eps like this. SO packed full of sex and sexual metaphor with the scene at the Bronze astonishingly graphic (actually that's not true, we see nothing, it's all implied) and kinky (Exhibitionist sure but exactly WHAT sort of sex do they have? What specifically of Spike's goes where precisesly in Buffy? 5th base? Buffy even says she needs "More lubrication"!). It's often cited by Spike defenders as justification for the

Spoiler

later bathroom rape scene

but her initially resisting then surrendering into bliss here is a very different kettle of fish. When she moans

Spoiler

'No' like some porn princess she doesn't necessarily mean no, when she pleads 'Please, stop, don't' through her tears SHE MEANS NO!

French Maid Katrina, we're obviously supposed to think the geeks will hypnotise Buffy into being their sex slave as stated in their original aims in 'Flooded' and the subject of much creepy fanfic (The Erotic Mind Control Archive) I do like the one where we discover the effect of the Orbs wears off but Buffy turns the tables and keeps using the Geeks as a guilt free booty call.

Captain Subtext;

Buffy imagines herself having sex with Katrina. Katrina tells the Geeks they'll be homosexually raped in prison. If ever there was a time for Buffy and Tara to hook up it would be between the end of this ep and the next. Warren tells a struggling Andrew and Jonathon 'You girls stop touching each other'.

Buffy just wants to curl up on the sofa for the night with Dawn but there's a distance between them. Joyce's illness and death brought them closer but Buffy's detachment since her resurrection has forced them apart again.

At the Bronze Spike tries to draw Buffy into the darkness, both inside and out. Instead she draws him into the light...

Scoobies in bondage: Buffy imagines herself in handcuffs (wants to be punished? Is that why she wants to go to jail?) but only in a dream sequence as far as we know for sure.

Kills: 1 demon for Buffy and 2 for Spike

Scoobies go evil: Giles: 1 Cordy: 1 Will: 2 Jenny: 1 Angel: 1 Oz: 1 Joyce: 1 Xander: 4 Anya; 1 Dawn; 1

Alternate scoobies: Buffy: 7 Giles: 4 Cordy: 1 Will: 3 Jenny: 2 Angel: 3 Oz: 2 Joyce: 2 Xander: 4 Tara; 1 Dawn;1 Spike; 1

Recurring characters killed: 11, poor Katrina Jesse, Flutie, Jenny, Kendra, Larry, Snyder, Professor Walsh, Forrest, McNamara, Joyce, Katrina Sunnydale deaths; 93

Spike; good or bad? A pivotal episode in this genre. Spike cares for Buffy so he helps her cover up the murder. But he doesn't care for Katrina, he truly doesn't understand why Buffy is so upset at killing her (even Faith and Warren show remorse). Not his fault, he doesn't have a soul. Spike makes many of the arguments that Faith made when she killed Finch but the difference is that Faith was in denial and making excuses whilst Spike actually believes what he's saying, he has no guilt as Faith had. He also comments that he once ate a decorator.

Dawn in peril; 8

Dawn the bashful virgin; 6

Questions and observations; Once again we see the difference in Faith and Buffy, how Buffy reacts to having killed someone and how Faith did (at least how she did in the past). Why doesn't Buffy just go to the Watcher's Council and ask them for their judgement? Willow has had no spells for 32 days, making this ep a full month after DMP. Note Buffy's little 'Thank you' to God/PTB when Katrina's scream interrupts her lusty feelings for Spike. Please note that when Buffy tells Dawn what's happened and what she intends to do Dawn never goes "What's going to happen to me?", she only expresses concern for her sister not herself. "You always hurt the one you love" is featured again just like in the Angel ep RM w/a Vu. Some great acting from Danny Strong when Warren and Andrew are euphoric at getting away with murder, you can just see Jonathon knows he's got in way over his head.

Marks out of 10; 5/10 good episode but not much fun for anyone

[lembergwatcher]

1) Spike shagging Buffy in the arse on the balcony is definitely one of the lowest points for Buffy and for the series in general. Well, dear writers, if you wanna pander to Spuffy 'shippers no matter what, please don't forget that Buffy supposed to be pro-women/women-empowering show. Don't humiliate the main female protagonist that way. And there are still lots of people out there who bash Xander for "toxic masculinity". Hilarious.

I guess by that point Joss should have renamed the show as Here Come Spike and Buffy and turned it into some Whedonverse version of Last Tango in Paris.

2) Could somebody tell me why were Willow and Tara so freaked out everytime they met?

3) I said it before and I'll say it again: turning three losers into villains and Buffy's main opponents was like making someone like Eric from Some Assembly Required the Big Bad of the second season.

 

[Halting Hex]

Aside from everything else (and I do mean EVERYTHING else), the angle for Spike giving it to Buffy up the ass is all wrong.  Plus seriously, dude, if you're going to cornhole her, bring some lube.  I know she has a Slayer Healing factor, but even so.

That said, I like this episode.  Well, not THIS episode, exactly…I mean the one where they stole the plot and a good chunk of the dialogue from, Consequences*.  (Spike's quoting Faith so hard, he should have given her attribution.)  Laziest bit of brain-dead plagiarism I ever saw on the show.  I hope Marti took at least half of DeKnight's paycheck.

And speaking of Spike being To Stupid to (Un)Live, even by his own very poor standards, let's not forget his decision to "hide" Katrina's body in the river.  You know, that thing that corpses float in?  Meanwhile, where does Spike live?  Oh, yeah, in a cemetery.  Think real hard, Spikey, and maybe, just maybe you'll figure out where you could hide a dead body in there.

(Hell, take it home with you.  If they haven't noticed that you're running electricity to the fucking crypt already, they won't start now.  You get nice semi-warm blood to snack on, and nobody finds Katrina.  Everybody's a winner.)

Hey, you know that awful pathetic soap-opera-esque door-fondling sequence, with Bush's careers withering in front of our very eyes as that song plays ("straight out of Days of Our Lives", one commenter wrote at the time) and Buffy all angsty and conflicted and so reduced to feeling Spike's dark passion through the door (oh, vomit, vomit, vomit!) and all that…why exactly doesn't Spike, oh, I don't know…JUST OPEN THE FUCKING DOOR???   I mean, he's not ambivalent and shit! He wants her, she's out there, open the goddamn door, you asshole!

I mean, I'm 180° removed from being a Spuffy 'shipper, but anything to end this fucking idiocy!

22 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

I said it before and I'll say it again: turning three losers into villains and Buffy's main opponents was like making someone like Eric from Some Assembly Required the Big Bad of the second season.

To be fair, they took Buffy's PTSD "iss-yews" from When She Was Bad and streeeeeeeetched them on forever, so why shouldn't they do the same with Eric 2.0 (aka Andrew)?  I mean, aside from wanting to tell good stories effectively and not send their audience screaming into the night and things such as that.  But clearly, "economy of storytelling" was long gone by now.  

Spoiler

And "Came Back Wrong" Buffy and Fucking Andrew stay for the rest of the series.  Oh, joy.

On the plus side, when Warren's trying to rape Katrina (and eventually kills her), he gets a "kewl" scar in his eyebrow, just like Spike!  So now maybe Buffy will start having obnoxious, joyless, public sex with him!  Bound to be a huge step up! Team "Barren", all the way!

To (mis)quote Neal from Ted:  "Nobody beats the (guy who built the) machine!"

A filthy fucking disgusting pile of shit, and not even an original one.  Second-worst episode of the entire series.  (And for a reason I haven't even mentioned yet.  Care to guess?)

Marks:  0/10.  If I could go lower, I would.  Much lower.

*-Oh, and apparently, it's not 3.15 that I'm supposed to be seeing a "homage" to, but 4.16;  Buffy's beating up Spike at the end is supposed to reminiscent of Fuffy beating up Baith at the end of Who Are You…she's saying all these bad things about him, but she's really talking about herself, you see!  How deep!

Yeah, yeah, whatever.  All I know it that when I first saw that scene, I was standing up and cheering.  Because IMO Buffy was describing Dear Sweet Spikey to a tee, and I had spent months suffering and waiting for her to see through his bullshit.  It wasn't until I came online after the episode that I was disabused of the idea that Fucked-Up Buffy could ever say a bad thing about St. Sunkencheeks.  "Put it all on me."  I'd like to put a swarm of piranhas on your genitals, Spike…will that do?

What a fucking fucking fucking fucking fucking piece of shit.  Steven S. DeKnight should be gang-raped on a regular basis for having subjected the audience to this excrement.

But JMO ;)

Edited October 29, 2018 by Halting Hex

[Joe Hellandback]

10 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

1) Spike shagging Buffy in the arse on the balcony is definitely one of the lowest points for Buffy and for the series in general. Well, dear writers, if you wanna pander to Spuffy 'shippers no matter what, please don't forget that Buffy supposed to be pro-women/women-empowering show. Don't humiliate the main female protagonist that way. And there are still lots of people out there who bash Xander for "toxic masculinity". Hilarious.

I guess by that point Joss should have renamed the show as Here Come Spike and Buffy and turned it into some Whedonverse version of Last Tango in Paris.

2) Could somebody tell me why were Willow and Tara so freaked out everytime they met?

3) I said it before and I'll say it again: turning three losers into villains and Buffy's main opponents was like making someone like Eric from Some Assembly Required the Big Bad of the second season.

 

It goes to a dark place but that's deliberate as a metaphor, I think they just went too far, went to too dark a place and kept it going for too long, you can still be a woman empowering show and humiliate the female protagonist, show her vulnerable and human side. I'm not sure anyone had coined that term yet but it seems more fitting for Warren than oh so sensitive Xander (and I loathe it anyway, I can just see the women's magazine's articles in a few years time "Where have all the REAL men gone and what's with all these wimps who are scared of their own shadow?', Answer-all too terrified to make any advances in case they're 'unwanted' and result in them being accused of sexual harassment). 

Never easy to meet your ex, especially given the circumstances of your break-up.

It was actually a cool idea to have human villains, explore things from the other side but ultimately it didn't work especially as they get comparatively little screen time hence the radical plot changes in the last few eps. 

[Joe Hellandback]

1 hour ago, Halting Hex said:

Aside from everything else (and I do mean EVERYTHING else), the angle for Spike giving it to Buffy up the ass is all wrong.  Plus seriously, dude, if you're going to cornhole her, bring some lube.  I know she has a Slayer Healing factor, but even so.

That said, I like this episode.  Well, not THIS episode, exactly…I mean the one where they stole the plot and a good chunk of the dialogue from, Consequences*.  (Spike's quoting Faith so hard, he should have given her attribution.)  Laziest bit of brain-dead plagiarism I ever saw on the show.  I hope Marti took at least half of DeKnight's paycheck.

And speaking of Spike being To Stupid to (Un)Live, even by his own very poor standards, let's not forget his decision to "hide" Katrina's body in the river.  You know, that thing that corpses float in?  Meanwhile, where does Spike live?  Oh, yeah, in a cemetery.  Think real hard, Spikey, and maybe, just maybe you'll figure out where you could hide a dead body in there.

(Hell, take it home with you.  If they haven't noticed that you're running electricity to the fucking crypt already, they won't start now.  You get nice semi-warm blood to snack on, and nobody finds Katrina.  Everybody's a winner.)

Hey, you know that awful pathetic soap-opera-esque door-fondling sequence, with Bush's careers withering in front of our very eyes as that song plays ("straight out of Days of Our Lives", one commenter wrote at the time) and Buffy all angsty and conflicted and so reduced to feeling Spike's dark passion through the door (oh, vomit, vomit, vomit!) and all that…why exactly doesn't Spike, oh, I don't know…JUST OPEN THE FUCKING DOOR???   I mean, he's not ambivalent and shit! He wants her, she's out there, open the goddamn door, you asshole!

I mean, I'm 180° removed from being a Spuffy 'shipper, but anything to end this fucking idiocy!

To be fair, they took Buffy's PSTD "iss-yews" from When She Was Bad and streeeeeeeetched them on forever, so why shouldn't they do the same with Eric 2.0 (aka Andrew)?  I mean, aside from wanting to tell good stories effectively and not send their audience screaming into the night and things such as that.  But clearly, "economy of storytelling" was long gone by now.  

  Reveal hidden contents

And "Came Back Wrong" Buffy and Fucking Andrew stay for the rest of the series.  Oh, joy.

On the plus side, when Warren's trying to rape Katrina (and eventually kills her), he gets a "kewl" scar in his eyebrow, just like Spike!  So now maybe Buffy will start having obnoxious, joyless, public sex with him!  Bound to be a huge step up! Team "Barren", all the way!

To (mis)quote Neal from Ted:  "Nobody beats the (guy who built the) machine!"

A filthy fucking disgusting pile of shit, and not even an original one.  Second-worst episode of the entire series.  (And for a reason I haven't even mentioned yet.  Care to guess?)

Marks:  0/10.  If I could go lower, I would.  Much lower.

*-Oh, and apparently, it's not 3.15 that I'm supposed to be seeing a "homage" to, but 4.16;  Buffy's beating up Spike at the end is supposed to reminiscent of Fuffy beating up Baith at the end of Who Are You…she's saying all these bad things about him, but she's really talking about herself, you see!  How deep!

Yeah, yeah, whatever.  All I know it that when I first saw that scene, I was standing up and cheering.  Because IMO Buffy was describing Dear Sweet Spikey to a tee, and I had spent months suffering and waiting for her to see through his bullshit.  It wasn't until I came online after the episode that I was disabused of the idea that Fucked-Up Buffy could ever say a bad thing about St. Sunkencheeks.  "Put it all on me."  I'd like to put a swarm of piranhas on your genitals, Spike…will that do?

What a fucking fucking fucking fucking fucking piece of shit.  Steven S. DeKnight should be gang-raped on a regular basis for having subjected the audience to this excrement.

But JMO ;)

Maybe he did, we've not really much idea what exactly is going on back there...you know this discussion is going some weird places.

As for Katrina's corpse, Spike is monstrously incompetent as proved time and time again. Dru did the thinking in that relationship (or Darla?).

I liked the door sequence, Buffy has to make her choice, shame it will take her

Spoiler

a few more eps to get there. 

[Halting Hex]

53 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

I liked the door sequence, Buffy has to make her choice

Well yes, I understand Buffy's emotional conflict.  I just don't, at all, get what's going through Spike's (alleged) brain.

"Girlfriend outside door.  Open door."  Not exactly rocket science, I wouldn't think.  Completely took me out of the moment.

On the plus side, while Jonathan is apparently fine with Warren using the [whatever it was called] to rape random girls, he seems to be upset once he learns that Katrina is Warren's ex-girlfriend.  See, he can be taught!  Give him enough time, and "rape is bad" might finally sink in!

And I think I sold the episode short with that "Care to guess [what else I hate about it]?" above.  There are actually two things that I absolutely despise that I haven't mentioned as yet.  But one is worse than the other, so I only thought of it first.  My bad.

Edited October 29, 2018 by Halting Hex

[Jack Shaftoe]

Quote

I said it before and I'll say it again: turning three losers into villains and Buffy's main opponents was like making someone like Eric from Some Assembly Required the Big Bad of the second season.

The trio from Some Assembly Required was so much better - Eric was genuinely creepy but of course, not that a threat that the Scoobies couldn't deal with quickly, and Chris was actually sympathetic unlike Andrew and Jonathon. Not that I would have wanted them to be in more than one episode, of course, but even in this one episode they felt more authentic than the caricatures Warren, Jonathon and especially Andrew.

Quote

And speaking of Spike being To Stupid to (Un)Live, even by his own very poor standards, let's not forget his decision to "hide" Katrina's body in the river.  You know, that thing that corpses float in?  Meanwhile, where does Spike live?  Oh, yeah, in a cemetery.  Think real hard, Spikey, and maybe, just maybe you'll figure out where you could hide a dead body in there.

I am honestly convinced that the writers had mostly checked out in the final seasons and every time I see someone claim how mature and amazing these seasons I can't help but shake my head because to me they are an epic fail not just on the thematic and characterization levels but on the very basic plot level.

Quote

It was actually a cool idea to have human villains, explore things from the other side

We have had human villains since episode 3, it's not like the Trio was some radical new idea, you know.

Quote

It goes to a dark place but that's deliberate as a metaphor, I think they just went too far, went to too dark a place and kept it going for too long, you can still be a woman empowering show and humiliate the female protagonist, show her vulnerable and human side.

We have seen Buffy's human side all along. Also, there is vulnerable and there is dating an unrepentant serial killer. The writers portrayed Spike as mostly harmless then

Spoiler

had the temerity to go all "Well, we had to have Spike try to rape Buffy because much of the audience had forgotten that he was dangerous". Gee, I wonder why that happened? And of course they followed that with "Well, Spike might be dangerous but Buffy wanting to have him protect Dawn in the episode after the attempted rape totally makes sense", showing that they had absolutely no clue what they were writing.

Edited October 29, 2018 by Jack Shaftoe

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎29‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 8:42 AM, Halting Hex said:

Well yes, I understand Buffy's emotional conflict.  I just don't, at all, get what's going through Spike's (alleged) brain.

"Girlfriend outside door.  Open door."  Not exactly rocket science, I wouldn't think.  Completely took me out of the moment.

On the plus side, while Jonathan is apparently fine with Warren using the [whatever it was called] to rape random girls, he seems to be upset once he learns that Katrina is Warren's ex-girlfriend.  See, he can be taught!  Give him enough time, and "rape is bad" might finally sink in!

And I think I sold the episode short with that "Care to guess [what else I hate about it]?" above.  There are actually two things that I absolutely despise that I haven't mentioned as yet.  But one is worse than the other, so I only thought of it first.  My bad.

I thought you'd have liked that scene, we see Buffy tempted to go back to Spike but now she resists, starting to pull away from him. 

22 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

The trio from Some Assembly Required was so much better - Eric was genuinely creepy but of course, not that a threat that the Scoobies couldn't deal with quickly, and Chris was actually sympathetic unlike Andrew and Jonathon. Not that I would have wanted them to be in more than one episode, of course, but even in this one episode they felt more authentic than the caricatures Warren, Jonathon and especially Andrew.

I am honestly convinced that the writers had mostly checked out in the final seasons and every time I see someone claim how mature and amazing these seasons I can't help but shake my head because to me they are an epic fail not just on the thematic and characterization levels but on the very basic plot level.

We have had human villains since episode 3, it's not like the Trio was some radical new idea, you know.

We have seen Buffy's human side all along. Also, there is vulnerable and there is dating an unrepentant serial killer. The writers portrayed Spike as mostly harmless then

  Reveal hidden contents

had the temerity to go all "Well, we had to have Spike try to rape Buffy because much of the audience had forgotten that he was dangerous". Gee, I wonder why that happened? And of course they followed that with "Well, Spike might be dangerous but Buffy wanting to have him protect Dawn in the episode after the attempted rape totally makes sense", showing that they had absolutely no clue what they were writing.

Thing is Chris was too sympathetic to be a genuine villain, if you read the SDH yearbook both he and Eric seem to have benefitted from therapy although it would have been nice to see them again. 

 I think you're right about some of the motivation for 'that scene' but it was necessary BECAUSE Spike had such a following who forgot all about his bloody past because of his cheekbones, Joss wanted to remind everyone that he was still a monster and that was wholly valid. 

[Halting Hex]

No, Buffy's managing to pull herself away from fondling Spike's knob (his doorknob, people! Minds out of the gutter!) doesn't make me find her fondling his fucking door any less stupid or character-destructive, thank you.

"Oh, Spike, I can feel the heat of your passion even through your door!  Well, not 'heat' exactly, because you're cold and dead, but I kind of like that in a guy! Oh, let me hump your wood [door] and imagine I'm humping your wood inside! Yes, baby!"

Sheesh.  FFS.  And so on.

(And still nobody wants to play "What do I think is the single worst part of this episode, which I haven't even mentioned yet?", huh?  Sigh…)

[wendyg]

I'll bite. What?

[Halting Hex]

Thank you! :)

It's in line with my Flooded critique.  From the script:

Quote

BUFFY: This place is okay for a hole in the ground. You fixed it up. 

SPIKE: I ate a decorator once. Maybe something stuck. 

Buffy smiles despite herself. Then-

(Emphasis mine.)

Yes, Spike's tales of actual people he actually murdered amuse Buffy.  Because the decorator didn't have friends or family or hopes or dreams or even a cat, I suppose.  He didn't deserve to live! Go, Spike!  So fucking disgusting.

I rank this episode below Flooded because there Spike's only proposing to slaughter Buffy's loved ones; whereas here is victim is as cold and dead as Buffy's soul, or the show's moral compass. So that shows the series is dying, but this one shows…it's dead. Deceased.  A Stiff.  It has rung down the curtain on this Vale of Tears and joined the Choir Invisible. (Etc, etc.)

Seriously, why should anyone keep watching at this point, other than inertia?  Buffy is clearly no longer a character worth following…what makes Buffy as a series such? I mean, I love-love-love Willow, but she's been reduced to an unstable addict herself, which makes it tough to hang a series on her, not that they're trying to.  

(She's barely in this episode, as it is.  And btw, Tara is not exactly a great ex-girlfriend here, jumping to negative conclusions about Willow before Buffy can even tell her why she asked Tara to stop by.  So again, not much reason to watch only for Willow, IMO.  And Xander gets even less, of course…swing-dancing or no.*)

Yeah, yeah, Joseph Campbell, hero's journey, yada-yada.  Just wait, things will get better, that's what we told ourselves. But as of right this episode, things utterly and truly and repugnantly sucked.  At least IMO.  I really, really, really hate this one and always will.  As I say, there's only one worse. (Yay?)

*-I think the show's about three years too late on the swing-dancing revival, btw.  That seems more 1999 than 2002, IIRC.  In fact, research indicates that '99 was the end of the Swing Revival, with Big Bad Voodoo Daddy performing at the Super Bowl halftime show, and it petering out thereafter.  So not exactly the cutting edge here, then.

Edited October 30, 2018 by Halting Hex

[Joe Hellandback]

17 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Thank you! :)

It's in line with my Flooded critique.  From the script:

(Emphasis mine.)

Yes, Spike's tales of actual people he actually murdered amuse Buffy.  Because the decorator didn't have friends or family or hopes or dreams or even a cat, I suppose.  He didn't deserve to live! Go, Spike!  So fucking disgusting.

I rank this episode below Flooded because there Spike's only proposing to slaughter Buffy's loved ones; whereas here is victim is as cold and dead as Buffy's soul, or the show's moral compass. So that shows the series is dying, but this one shows…it's dead. Deceased.  A Stiff.  It has rung down the curtain on this Vale of Tears and joined the Choir Invisible. (Etc, etc.)

Seriously, why should anyone keep watching at this point, other than inertia?  Buffy is clearly no longer a character worth following…what makes Buffy as a series such? I mean, I love-love-love Willow, but she's been reduced to an unstable addict herself, which makes it tough to hang a series on her, not that they're trying to.  

(She's barely in this episode, as it is.  And btw, Tara is not exactly a great ex-girlfriend here, jumping to negative conclusions about Willow before Buffy can even tell her why she asked Tara to stop by.  So again, not much reason to watch only for Willow, IMO.  And Xander gets even less, of course…swing-dancing or no.*)

Yeah, yeah, Joseph Campbell, hero's journey, yada-yada.  Just wait, things will get better, that's what we told ourselves. But as of right this episode, things utterly and truly and repugnantly sucked.  At least IMO.  I really, really, really hate this one and always will.  As I say, there's only one worse. (Yay?)

*-I think the show's about three years too late on the swing-dancing revival, btw.  That seems more 1999 than 2002, IIRC.  In fact, research indicates that '99 was the end of the Swing Revival, with Big Bad Voodoo Daddy performing at the Super Bowl halftime show, and it petering out thereafter.  So not exactly the cutting edge here, then.

Buffy knows that already, she has no illusions about Capt Peroxide. And there's life in this series yet, season 7 will nail it to its' perch at very least. I also forgive Tara, it shows where her concerns lie?

 No, I remember them swing dancing on Ally McBeal at the time (Lin and Elaine) so it was current. 

[Halting Hex]

Discussion of s7 is premature, in any event, but you may be misunderstanding the "nail it to its perch" line if you think that indicates life.

And it's good to know that Buffy has no illusions about Spike, but I still don't see how that justifies her a) allowing his continued existence, b) fucking him, and c) laughing at his tales of destroying innocent human lives, as was my specific objection.  I'm still looking for any vestige of a moral compass here…and still not finding one.

[Jack Shaftoe]

Of course Buffy has illusions about Spike. If she didn't, her tolerance of him would be even more egregiously dumb than what we actually saw on screen.

One of the main recurring problems of season 6 is that it (allegedly, at least) is supposed to be more grounded in the real world than the previous seasons but the Scoobies attitude toward murder is more cavalier than ever before. Xander summons a demon who burns people to death? Let's joke about it. Spike and Anya are serial killers? That's just super funny and no reason for concern at all. Spike can hurt Buffy now? Who cares, no way he would actually try to harm her, it's not like he has done anything like that before, right?

Edited October 31, 2018 by Jack Shaftoe

[illdoc]

4 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Xander summons a demon who burns people to death?

Technically, the demon only caused people to dance. Some of them just danced themselves into combusting.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎30‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 12:24 PM, Halting Hex said:

No, Buffy's managing to pull herself away from fondling Spike's knob (his doorknob, people! Minds out of the gutter!) doesn't make me find her fondling his fucking door any less stupid or character-destructive, thank you.

"Oh, Spike, I can feel the heat of your passion even through your door!  Well, not 'heat' exactly, because you're cold and dead, but I kind of like that in a guy! Oh, let me hump your wood [door] and imagine I'm humping your wood inside! Yes, baby!"

Sheesh.  FFS.  And so on.

(And still nobody wants to play "What do I think is the single worst part of this episode, which I haven't even mentioned yet?", huh?  Sigh…)

A bit of a radical step, she knows this relationship is wrong, she knows this is her chance to step away so she does. 

[Joe Hellandback]

7 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Discussion of s7 is premature, in any event, but you may be misunderstanding the "nail it to its perch" line if you think that indicates life.

And it's good to know that Buffy has no illusions about Spike, but I still don't see how that justifies her a) allowing his continued existence, b) fucking him, and c) laughing at his tales of destroying innocent human lives, as was my specific objection.  I'm still looking for any vestige of a moral compass here…and still not finding one.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=the+parrot+sketch&&view=detail&mid=7A384C0912CBB1256FDF7A384C0912CBB1256FDF&&FORM=VRDGAR

58 minutes ago, illdoc said:

Technically, the demon only caused people to dance. Some of them just danced themselves into combusting.

But he didn't know, like CC making her wish to Anyanka.

[lembergwatcher]

Here's what I find not only overly stupid, but a little bit disturbing:

Quote

WILLOW: So that's it. These things just made you think you killed her.
XANDER: She was probably dead long before you stumbled across her.
BUFFY: It wasn't the demons. It was Warren. He knew Katrina. He had something to do with it, I know it.
WILLOW: How can you be sure?
BUFFY: You always hurt the one you love.

Since when do we reach such conclusions on the basis of mere assumption???

Yes, the viewers (along with Jonathan and Andrew) know Warren is the killer, but Buffy has no way of knowing it... yet. Whenever I recall Buffy's sudden "enlightment" of that kind, I can't help but remember What's My Line, Part 1 with its career fair shtick.

Quote

BUFFY: (giggles) Well, at least you'll be on the right side of the bars.

XANDER: Ha, ha, ha, ha! Laugh now, missy, they assigned you to the booth for law enforcement professionals.

BUFFY: (stunned) As in police?

XANDER: As in polyester, doughnuts and brutality.

Just another proof the career fair turned out to be one big, fat, ridiculous joke in terms of learning the Three Musketeers' future. Law enforcement professionals, my ass. I somehow cannot imagine a detective sayin' "Citizen X had something to do with murdering citizen Y, because I know it". 

What happened to "innocent until proven guilty", Buff? Warren is a dick and a villain wannabe but that alone hardly makes him a cold blooded killer. Besides, modern judicial system is made to protect the rights of his kind in many ways. Warren's past connection to the victim is a probable cause for investigation, not branding him a murderer just because of... what?.. Some bullshit spewed out (once again) by Captain Peroxide?? 

Quote

SPIKE: (slurred) You always hurt ... the one you love, pet.

 You must be kidding, right?.. We sometimes hurt the ones we love, but we not always murder them, you know. And even if some of us do hurt other people a lot, shouldn't there be someone else, someone more credible to point out that "truth" instead of fucking Spike? Slayer's "sherlockian skills" are quite lame and next to nothing, I must say, and I can't figure out why W/X trust her judgement so blindly in this regard?

Don't know whether the whole Buffy-jumping-to-conclusions shtick is either result of writers' incompetence or just another way to show how badly is our beloved heroine screwed-up at this point. Or maybe the girl's so lucky she doesn't have to go to jail, i.e. deny herself Spike's sex therapy and listening to his "funny" stories about killinng people, she's ready to implicate another (theoretically innocent) person (even though Warren is a guilty party, Buffy doesn't know it for sure since the guy hasn't been caught killing people in the past AFAIK). 

Btw, is Buffy's attempt to hand herself over to the authorities due to her feeling guilty for "killing" Kathrina or she simply prefers the company of some big ol' Bertha instead of having to deal with Dawn, Xander and Willow because she's still bitter about Heeeeeeaaaaaven?

[Halting Hex]

15 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Quote

SPIKE: (slurred) You always hurt ... the one you love, pet.

 You must be kidding, right?.. We sometimes hurt the ones we love, but we not always murder them, you know.

Not to mention that the expression is about hurting people emotionally, not physically.  Since we only have deep emotional connections to a few people, but you always have the option of pummeling any passing passerby, should you choose. 

Of course, one can hardly expect Spike to be able to perceive this difference, but I expect more of Buffy.  (Well, I could make a macro out of that last, but even so.)

Buffy is correct to suspect Warren, as most murder victims know their attacker and the spouse/significant other is the single most likely suspect.  ("Wives kill husbands, husbands kill wives", to quote Law & Order.)  But it's hardly 100%.

Quote

ED GREEN:  You like the husband.

LENNIE BRISCOE:  I always like the husband.

—Law & Order, "Floater"

Yeah, well, that's why you're a hack, Lennie.  You'd think that you could be a little less smart-ass and cock-sure questioning suspects and making arrests, given that you get it wrong at least once in almost every episode, wouldn't you?  But, nah, quipping trumps self-awareness, apparently.  Sigh.  

Spoiler

It wasn't the husband, btw.

And given that Buffy's idea of action is less "arrest" than "extreme violence, possibly fatal", she might want to be even more cautious.  But apparently not.  And again, sigh.

Different subject:  in seeing the "poor cropping" section of that "what's wrong with the remaster?" vid discussed elsewhere, I was reminded that when Spike came up behind Buffy (and subsequently came up Buffy's behind [/sorry!]) on the Bronze balcony in this episode, she was all morose because she felt disconnected from her friends' (allegedly) happy lives.  What was her trigger, specifically?  Watching Xander swing dancing with Anya.

That's right.  Swing dancing. With Anya.  That's what gives Buffy such a case of the glooms she needs an injection of Ice Penis right now??  Sheesh.  Talk about your low threshold for excitement, there.  

I mean, even Willow wasn't so into Xander as to be jealous of that.  Take heart, B/X faithful!  Buffy must like her White Knight more than she's been letting on, I guess.  Or Xanya really is a "Miraculous Love", after all. 

(In the immortal words of Jim Gosger, "Yeah, surrrrrrre!")

Edited March 29, 2019 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

7 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Buffy is correct to suspect Warren, as most murder victims know their attacker and the spouse/significant other is the single most likely suspect. 

To suspect - yes. But she says she knows Warren is the killer. That's a clear-cut statement. Suspicion leaves some place for doubt, knowledge does not. So it's not so much about suspicion which, I agree, is adequate in this regard, but some mystical proficiency Slayers aren't supposed to have. Buffy could have concluded that Morgan killed Emily simply on account of him being "a grade A large weirdo" who talks to his puppet. The connection to murder victim makes one a suspect, but, to quote Buffy herself, "doesn't lead directly to murderer".

8 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

What was her trigger, specifically?  Watching Xander swing dancing with Anya.

That's right.  Swing dancing. With Anya.  That's what gives Buffy such a case of the glooms she needs an injection of Ice Penis right now??  Sheesh. 

What if it wasn't because of Xander swing dancing with Anya, but because of Willow joining them? Or Buffy's love for the redhead vanished completely at that point due to the whole Heeeeaaaven thing and car crash involving Dawn? 

[Halting Hex]

4 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

What if it wasn't because of Xander swing dancing with Anya, but because of Willow joining them? Or Buffy's love for the redhead vanished completely at that point due to the whole Heeeeaaaven thing and car crash involving Dawn? 

Well, she'd opened up to Willow a bit at the end of Gone, so there appears to still be some friendship there, which is good.  (Perhaps Willow risking her life to save Buffy's made an impression?  I'd hope so.)

Meantime, when thinking of a most-inappropriate part of this IMO horrible and amoral episode that I hate beyond all measure, I find myself coming down with a strange case of the giggles, as I wonder how exactly Buffy got down from the balcony without having SpikeSpooge dribbling out of her ass all over the place?  I mean, it didn't seem as though he'd brought a handkerchief…the (metaphorically) big jerk.

So now I'm imagining Buffy hanging to the (pardon the pun) rear of the group as they leave, taking teeeeeny-tiny steps as she tries carry the Demon Seed evidence with her, rather than leaving a trail of tawdriness (again, pardon the pun) behind as she crosses the dance floor on her way out the door.  Betcha that's one Slayer maneuver Giles never taught her! 

Although a certain group of 'shippers would say it would have been a great improvement if he had.  Not certain that I disagree, tbh.  I mean, consider the alternative…

(Okay, maybe Buffy brought a bag [I saw this episode once, remember…and that was 17 years ago] and she's packing enough Kleenex to make a semi-Kleen getaway, after all.  But that's boring. 😛)

[lembergwatcher]

1 hour ago, Halting Hex said:

I wonder how exactly Buffy got down from the balcony without having SpikeSpooge dribbling out of her ass all over the place?

Good point. Maybe the vampiric spooge is not that visible so she doesn't have to be afraid of someone noticing traces of demon seed on her behind.

And speaking of a most-inappropriate part... Does the whole thing mean Buffy has a habit of going to public places without her underwear? What kind of message is that? Because, you know, there was a time Buffy supposed to be some sort of role model for teenage girls... Where have all those good times gone?..

[Halting Hex]

1 hour ago, lembergwatcher said:

Does the whole thing mean Buffy has a habit of going to public places without her underwear? 

Well, I was hoping that perhaps I just didn't remember Spike moving that thong thing (or similar) out of the way, but…

Quote

SPIKE:  Stop me.

She doesn't. His overcoat swings in, obscuring the action as he gets her skirt up. Her breathing quickens. She gasps. Spike moans, his face consumed in the moment. Buffy grips the railing, her knuckles white.

She sees Xander, Anya, and Willow down on the main floor, dancing and laughing, totally oblivious. She closes her eyes, unable to look at them.

SPIKE (cont'd): No. Don't close your eyes.

Buffy opens her eyes. Spike continues moving rhythmically behind her, his breath hot on her neck.

All one motion.  Perfectly easy access.  You slut, Slayer.

(Can Spike's breath really be hot on her neck?  Given that Spike's not that hot, in the literal sense.)

1 hour ago, lembergwatcher said:

What kind of message is that? Because, you know, there was a time Buffy supposed to be some sort of role model for teenage girls...

Well, I don't want to automatically condemn Buffy just because she chooses to "go commando".  (Maybe she learned this from Riley?)  It's a choice, and not necessarily a wrong one.

That said…if you have made that choice, it seems you might wish to avoid standing on catwalks.  Where pretty much the whole main floor can see up your skirt, after all. 

(Should we assume that Spike assayed the rear entrance so as to be sure that Buffy's body would block any lookie-loos from catching a glimpse of Spike's spike doing its thing? Probably not, but still…)

Edited March 29, 2019 by Halting Hex

[Halting Hex]

3 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

She sees Xander, Anya, and Willow down on the main floor, dancing and laughing, totally oblivious. She closes her eyes, unable to look at them.

SPIKE (cont'd): No. Don't close your eyes.

Hey, how the fark can Spike see that Buffy's closing her eyes, exactly?  He's behind her, isn't he? Is there a well-placed mirror that I've missed?  (And wouldn't that be hilarious, watching Buffy apparently getting cornholed by "nothing", due to Spike's non-reflecting nature?)

Also, you'd think he'd be too busy to critique her facial expressions, no?  But apparently Sparky knows how to multi-task, I guess.

[lembergwatcher]

Some vampiric super senses I guess and Joss knows what else... It's Spike, after all. He "knows" Buffy better than she knows herself. Probably.

And, btw, seems like the whole B/S "tender" moment took place at the same spot Dru and Spike killed a kissing couple a year ago in Crush.

[Halting Hex]

Well, no wonder Spike was eager to have a go, then! 

Memories…

[Halting Hex]

On 10/31/2018 at 7:42 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

No, I remember them swing dancing on Ally McBeal at the time (Lin and Elaine) so it was current. 

From Noel Murray's review of this episode on the Onion AV Club:

Quote

At The Bronze, Xander and Anya swing-dance. Here’s what funny about watching a TV show for the first time long after it originally aired: My memory says that in 2002, the swing-dance craze was pretty much over, but I don’t know if people watching this episode originally would’ve found that moment a few years out of date, or just hip enough for TV (which is nearly always a few years out of date when it comes to popular culture). I do know this, though: As 2002 fades further into the past and gets compressed into a generalized “back then,” fewer people will remember whether the swing-dance scene is unhip or not. They’ll just think, “Oh yeah, swing-dancing was really hot back then. Swingers. That Gap ad. The Buffy episode. It was a pretty big deal.”

So at least I'm not alone in thinking the timing is wrong.  But Noel could be mistaken, just as I could be.  (Or as Joe could be, advocating for the contrary position.)  Seems somewhat subjective, I guess.

And as we're discussing this episode, here's a little bit of IMO appropriately-titled fun from 1997:

I wouldn't mind seeing Spike "headed for some serious strife", I'll admit.

Edited July 21, 2019 by Halting Hex

[Halting Hex]

So, I was making various smutty "predictions" about the Codex under a spoiler cut in the Prophecy Girl thread, and I not only referenced this episode's grossness, but the fanon theory that Buffy's Slayer Healing factor makes her hymen unusually resilient, and thus a certain part of Riley's efforts were devoted plowing the same patch of ground, over and over again.

So…is that why Spike ass-ays the rear approach in this episode?  He's gotten tired of finding home plate continually blocked off, so he's trying fifth base as the easier route?

I mean, Angel did once claim that Spike was unusually dedicated in pursuing his goals, but that was years ago.  Perhaps Sparky's learned the benefits of compromise?  Remember, Angel did always tell Spike to "guard your perimeter"…perhaps Spike's learned to check for unguarded entrances in paramours?

Edited December 13, 2020 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

6 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

So…is that why Spike ass-ays the rear approach in this episode?  He's gotten tired of finding home plate continually blocked off, so he's trying fifth base as the easier route?

I guess you're right. Spike prefers an easy access.

[lembergwatcher]

Do I have a feeling writers involved in making season sux or all three final seasons of Buffy were either high on drugs, in a hurry or lazy? Yes, I do.

Buffy is so filled with desire for prison sex enormous guilt over Katrina's death, she decides to visit police station to make a confession a few hours after discovering the other girl's body in the woods. How about telling Willow or Xander they're gonna be Dawn's legal guardians in case Buffy ends up behind bars in the first place? Or how about contacting Daddy Summers or aunt Arlene which is kinda more appropriate in this situation?

Is Buffy that disinterested in any activity except for shagging Spike she just leaves Dawn in her room without a second thought? Who's gonna take care of Dawnie if Buffy will be serving term? Who's gonna pay the bills from now on? Unemployed Willow? Xander who has to save every dollar for freaking wedding? Anya? Spike? 

How about warning people who will be affected by your rash decision in one way or another, Buff?

[Halting Hex]

Well, I'm always reluctant to condemn Buffy's decision, because she's right;  Justice should be served.  Whether Dawn and Spike like it, or not.

That said, you're right that she could have prepared the ground a little better.  I know Dawn's hissy-fit taxed Buffy's patience, but still.  Give the gang a heads-up, maybe hire a good attorney.

(I hear Angel knows an entire firm.  Although "good" probably isn't the best description there.  "Skillful"? "Effective"?  Whatever.)

[lembergwatcher]

Quote

Buffy: "A girl is dead because of me."

Spike: "And how many people are alive because of you? How many have you saved? One dead girl doesn't tip the scale."

For a show that was always about how many monsters Buffy killed, not how many people she saved, Saint Sunkencheecks does have some point. In his own way, of course. 
"One dead girl doesn't tip the scale". As cynical as it may sound, I'd rather agree with Spike than believe in Buffy's sincerity in this particular case. After all, the more series progressed, the less compassion we were supposed to feel for the ordinary folks caught in the crossfire. Is Katrina's case that different from, say, poor magic shop clerk from Lovers Walk? Apparently Katrina deserved justice but the aforementioned woman was just swept aside because Buffy had other things on her mind back than.

Then again Buffy's let Angel get away with murder of Joss knows how many girls and boys Katrina's age for months and rarely had any nightmares because of the carnage which could've been easily avoided, had Buffy remembered she was a Slayer, not some love sick girlfriend...
Like I said before, it wasn't so much about "justice" or "guilt". It was more about saying "goodbye" or having a "break" from friends and family and responsibilities.

[Halting Hex]

Nah, that's a seductive argument, but Sparky is no more correct than when Faith made the same argument in the original episode (Consequences; this is just the cheap knock-off).

Quote

FAITH: I missed the mark "last night" [ed.—it was Saturday night, dingbat.  This is Monday], and I'm sorry aboat the guy, I really am…but it happens.  Anyways, how many people do you think we've saved by now?  Thousands?  And didn't you stop the world from ending?  In my book, that puts you and me in the plus column.

BUFFY (aghast):  We help people! That doesn't mean we can do whatever we want!

Indeed.  You can't keep score when human lives are at stake.  If Faith has saved "thousands", does that mean it's okay for her to kill hundreds?  Or even let dozens die?  Of course not.

Quote

TED:  I just think…right is right.  —Ted

A bit simplistic (hey, all the advanced robotics went into Ted's giant penis life-like skin, not his philosophical capabilities), but pretty much on point:  morality isn't subjective.  Buffy doesn't get to do evil because she's done good before.  

And remember, while Buffy didn't mean to "kill" Katrina, a large part of being the Slayer is knowing when not to use full strength. Whether it's Amy in BB&B or young Aldis Hodge in the demon mask in Fear, Itself, Buffy's senses work, even subconsciously, to prevent her hurting humans.  (This may be why she's horrified Faith didn't have that braking mechanism wrt Allan.) If she's slipping and she can kill Katrina due to nothing more than a dream, who's to say that the next time she slaps Dawn she won't break Dawnie's jaw?  Next to becoming a vampire, hurting humans, even by accident, has to be pretty high up on Buffy's list of fears.

For Faith/Spike to just dismiss it because "oh, well, you still get through on aggregate" completely misses the point.  She's supposed to keep a clean sheet, period.

Quote

GILES:  You are the Slayer.  Lives depend on you.  —Witch

If the leather twins can't get this, they can't understand Buffy.  So maybe Buffy should get her sex someplace else, after all.

(*cough*Willow'ssinglenow*cough*. Sorry, habit.)

JMO.

[lembergwatcher]

As much as I like the possibility of Buffy ending up behind bars (she was accessory to Finch's murder and if logic ruled Buffyverse she should've stood trial along with the other Slayer and served some prison term, albeit smaller; besides, even if no one died, robbery and attacking the law enforcement officers should've been still considered criminal offence back in '99), I'm not buying her remorse over Katrina in this particular episode.

I think it was some kind of an attempt to finish what Buffy almost did at the end of OMWF (before Spike stopped her), only by other means. Not burning to death but slowly rotting in prison. 

Buffy was sick and tired of her life, Dawn and Scoobies. Maybe she viewed handing herself over as some sort of escape from that post-ressurection misery.

But when someone fucks an unrepentant mass murderer finding his stories about eating decorators funny and then all of a sudden becomes upset over Katrina's death to the point of losing sleep, I sense some... I dunno... phoniness or something. Or I sense the writer of the ep took too much drugs before he started writing.

To be honest, I'm not sure what part of this episode I find more weird: Buffy going from smiling after Spike's going down the (murderous) memory lane to "the girl is dead because of me!!!" or Jonathan going from panicking over the Trio turning from comic villains into actual villains to "gotta be some more girls we can kill" to once againg looking uncomfortable when Warren concludes they'll get away with murder?

Beating the crap out of Spike was fun actually.

[Halting Hex]

2 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Buffy going from smiling after Spike's going down the (murderous) memory lane to "the girl is dead because of me!!!"

Well, I admit I'm completely repulsed by Buffy's amusement at Spike's tales of disposable decorators (see above), but one can argue that it's different when the blood is metaphorically on her own hands.  Not to keep quoting the Consequences thread, but Buffy having a blind spot the size of Angel's forehead Spike's abs about her vampire honey's murderous past doesn't mean that she's wrong to realize that Faith she herself shouldn't be killing people.  Whedon's pathetic pursuit of cheap ratings Buffy's double standard for her favorite corpses is disgusting…but that's still no reason to lower her own morals to that lowest of the lowest common denominators. JMO.