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SilverStormm

S11.E01: The Woman Who Fell to Earth

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On 10/8/2018 at 2:03 PM, Eulipian 5k said:

When the telescoping squares appeared in front of Gary in act 1 I thought we'd get a TARDIS flying out of it; when the commotion was happening on the train I thought I'd get a TARDIS on the train with the new Doctor stumbling out. But alas, noooo TARDIS. We did hear a snippet of the theme when the Doctor appeared but it was so short I thought they maybe couldn't afford the royalties.

Pleas, I'm disoriented enough, pleeze bring back the TARDIS., Nothing is familiar, I don't know where I am!

It felt odd, no TARDIS, no opening.... I need my opening.....

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6 hours ago, QuantumMechanic said:

I didn't take that to mean she was Gallifreyan but rather that by jumping into whatever the Great Intelligence was doing to the Doctor she was splintered through time (a la Scaroth) with the splinters popping in at the same times & places that the GI was making go wrong in order to make them go right  (hi, Sam!).

 

I too thought that was case and even then it bugged me that she was there on Gallifrey.  On the rewatch though there is this explanation where she specifically states that she lives a full life.

Clara: [voice-over] I don’t know where I am. I just know I’m running. Sometimes it’s like I’ve lived a thousand lives in a thousand places. I’m born, I live, I die. And always, there’s the Doctor. Always, I’m running to save the Doctor, again, and again, and again. And he hardly ever hears me. But I’ve always been there.

7 hours ago, Llywela said:
8 hours ago, ae2 said:

I don't believe he transported out of there. I thought he was turning into goop because of the DNA bomb that transferred into him, which he then set off. Pretty sure he's dead dead.

I re-watched this last night and he definitely activates the recall device and teleports out of there - but as he is also definitely turning into goop at the time thanks to the DNA bombs, it  seems pretty likely that he showed up at the other end of the transport deader than dead!

I missed the part about the DNA bombs.  That puts a different spin on the Doctor's objection to Carl kicking Tim Shaw off the crane.  It is as if it is the Doctor has to have the last word.  Did Carl even know about the DNA bomb?  To him, the thing that just tried to kill him is still standing there over him.  Why wouldn't he take advantage of the opportunity to kick him off the crane?

I am beginning to think I'm over thinking these things.

8 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

It felt odd, no TARDIS, no opening.... I need my opening.....

What bugs me is that I didn't realize it was missing the first time I watched the episode.  Even then, there was the thought that I just missed it somehow. 

Quote

Hey now, Amelia Pond was a cop! :-)

Hee, funny AE2!

Edited by elle
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1 hour ago, taanja said:

Admittedly --It has been a long time since I watched an old Who episode. I'm going from memory -- and those originally aired many years ago....

My perception was always-- even if they accidentally  journeyed with the Doctor-- that the Doctor LIKED them being there and even sort of made it happen?

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

Oh yes, the Doctor quickly became fond of all his companions, whatever the circumstances of their arrival, and enjoyed travelling with them, that isn't in doubt. He loved every one of them and hated to see them leave. That isn't the same, though, as singling out particular individuals to invite aboard specifically because they are somehow special enough to deserve the honour. That, like I said, is a New Who concept that first came up with the 9th Doctor and Rose and was mostly about rubbing Adam's nose in his failure, rather than being an actual statement of fact. Life with the Classic Doctors was much more haphazard - companions came aboard for a wide variety of reasons, and the close relationships they developed with the Doctor came later. He didn't go around auditioning potential companions in order to choose the best candidates. He just rolled with whoever came along, for the most part. Which is why I really like the accidental nature of Ryan, Yaz and Graham getting caught up in the teleport in this episode - it is just such an old school way of hurling new companions into space without either them or the Doctor ever intending it to happen!

17 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I am glad I wasn't the only one who caught that. I really hope they aren't going to erase Doctor One as Doctor One. Does Chibnall understand canon? They might have gotten away with slipping in the War Doctor, but he had better not mess with the first one! (can you tell I'm an ardent old school fan?)

I have just re-watched the episode for the third time. At no point does the Doctor ever imply that she has been a woman before. She does not say "It's been a long time since I was a woman," as has been claimed in this thread. She says, "It's been a long time since I bought women's clothes," which is a statement with many possible meanings. We know that the Doctor has been married, more than once, we know that he raised at least one child - and let us not forget that the First Doctor was the guardian of his granddaughter for an unspecified period of time, so had to feed and clothe her. There have been many female companions travelling in the TARDIS over the years. So fear not, suggesting that the Doctor has at some point in the past purchased women's clothing is not in any way a retcon of the show's past (and I understand how you feel about it - I'm still angry with Moffat for meddling with the Doctor's history).

Edited by Llywela
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17 minutes ago, elle said:

I missed the part about the DNA bombs.  That puts a different spin on the Doctor's objection to Carl kicking Tim Shaw off the crane.  It is as if it is the Doctor has to have the last word.  Did Carl even know about the DNA bomb?  To him, the thing that just tried to kill him is still standing there over him.  Why wouldn't he take advantage of the opportunity to kick him off the crane?

I am beginning to think I'm over thinking these things.

Carl did sort of know about the DNA bombs, yes, because the Doctor and Tim Shaw had a whole conversation about them right in front of him - but how much of it he understood is debatable. He lashed out at a defeated enemy, that's what the Doctor was angry about. Tim Shaw was beaten and was already dying - the Doctor tossed the recall device to him so he could teleport home to die (or possibly in the remote chance that he could be healed before the DNA bombs killed him). He then did teleport home while falling, so it isn't as if Carl killed him - he was dying anyway, and never hit the ground. So I think it was the vengefulness of the act that the Doctor objected to - although as you say, it is hard not to sympathise with Carl there!

ETA sorry about the double post - I meant this to be part of the post above, but it went wrong.

Edited by Llywela
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14 minutes ago, elle said:

I too thought that was case and even then it bugged me that she was there on Gallifrey.  On the rewatch though there is this explanation where she specifically states that she lives a full life.

Clara: [voice-over] I don’t know where I am. I just know I’m running. Sometimes it’s like I’ve lived a thousand lives in a thousand places. I’m born, I live, I die. And always, there’s the Doctor. Always, I’m running to save the Doctor, again, and again, and again. And he hardly ever hears me. But I’ve always been there.

I missed the part about the DNA bombs.  That puts a different spin on the Doctor's objection to Carl kicking Tim Shaw off the crane.  It is as if it is the Doctor has to have the last word.  Did Carl even know about the DNA bomb?  To him, the thing that just tried to kill him is still standing there over him.  Why wouldn't he take advantage of the opportunity to kick him off the crane?

I am beginning to think I'm over thinking these things.

What bugs me is that I didn't realize it was missing the first time I watched the episode.  Even then, there was the thought that I just missed it somehow. 

Hee, funny AE2!

 

I was waiting for the intro! There is something rather epic about it. Even the old shows.... I love the intro. 

Every time I see Tim Shaw, I giggle. 

Edited by libgirl2

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12 minutes ago, Llywela said:

So I think it was the vengefulness of the act that the Doctor objected to - although as you say, it is hard not to sympathise with Carl there!

I had not thought of that.  Maybe that helps to explain Ten's reaction to Harriet Jones, though what he did was also vengeful.  I always thought she was proved right that the Earth needs to protect itself because the Doctor would not always be there.  A topic for another thread.

7 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I was waiting for the intro! There is something rather epic about it. Even the old shows.... I love the intro. 

I love the intro too which is what disturbs me that I missed that it was missing.  I will just chalk it up to being distracted, maybe.

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5 minutes ago, elle said:

I had not thought of that.  Maybe that helps to explain Ten's reaction to Harriet Jones, though what he did was also vengeful.  I always thought she was proved right that the Earth needs to protect itself because the Doctor would not always be there.  A topic for another thread.

I always thought she was proved right too - the Doctor choosing to punish Harriet, in defiance of what he claimed was established history, directly paved the way for the Master to take control of Earth! But I do think his anger at Harriet stemmed from the same place as the anger at Carl here, yes - in both cases the enemy was already defeated and retreating (and actively dying, in Tim Shaw's case). The danger was over and the battle won, so that what Harriet and Carl did was effectively an act of murder rather than of war. And, I guess, that kind of fuzzy grey area is why we have rules of engagement and war crimes tribunals. It is also why the Third Doctor was so upset when the Brigadier blew up the hibernating Silurians way back in 1970. Actively harming a defeated and helpless opponent goes against the Doctor's sense of fair play in just the same way that invading an alien world to hunt and abduct an unsuspecting random target does!

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4 hours ago, One4Sorrow2TooBad said:

They may have been retreating or they may have been going back for more ammo or reinforcements.    

Which was Harriet's argument, and like I said, I think she was proved right about being the one with ultimate responsibility for making that decision. And way back in 1970, the Brig's argument for blowing up the hibernating Silurians was that they had just tried to wipe out the entire human population by means of a deadly virus and couldn't be trusted not to try again; tactically, they were a risk that couldn't be taken, an ongoing threat that couldn't be allowed to lie just because it was currently dormant. Also a valid argument. But I was giving the Doctor's reason for being angry about it, which was the same as her reason for being angry with Carl for pushing a defeated and dying enemy off the top of a crane here. Thirteen was less vindictive about it than Ten, probably because Tim Shaw was already dying anyway (and was able to teleport away so that the fall didn't kill him). She was just disappointed in Carl for striking below the belt after the bell, as it were. Ten was absolutely furious because he thought he'd just negotiated a bloodless peace, and then bam, so he took it very personally.

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Yeah, every Silurian they dealt with in that episode accept for one had tried to wipe out the human race.  So I don't blame the Brigadier for not taking the Doctor at his word about them.  Although if that had happened now, the 10th Doctor would have been furious with the Brig for doing that.  I can't even blame Carl for doing what he did, even though the Predator was about to leave.

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18 hours ago, Llywela said:

I have just re-watched the episode for the third time. At no point does the Doctor ever imply that she has been a woman before. She does not say "It's been a long time since I was a woman," as has been claimed in this thread. She says, "It's been a long time since I bought women's clothes," which is a statement with many possible meanings. We know that the Doctor has been married, more than once, we know that he raised at least one child - and let us not forget that the First Doctor was the guardian of his granddaughter for an unspecified period of time, so had to feed and clothe her. There have been many female companions travelling in the TARDIS over the years. So fear not, suggesting that the Doctor has at some point in the past purchased women's clothing is not in any way a retcon of the show's past (and I understand how you feel about it - I'm still angry with Moffat for meddling with the Doctor's history).

Not only that, but the Doctor makes a point of asking "does it suit me?" after being told she's a woman, which, again, shows that being a woman is new to the Doctor. Nothing in the episode indicated this was a repeat gender swap for her. 

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23 hours ago, Llywela said:

Oh yes, the Doctor quickly became fond of all his companions, whatever the circumstances of their arrival, and enjoyed travelling with them, that isn't in doubt. He loved every one of them and hated to see them leave. That isn't the same, though, as singling out particular individuals to invite aboard specifically because they are somehow special enough to deserve the honour. That, like I said, is a New Who concept that first came up with the 9th Doctor and Rose and was mostly about rubbing Adam's nose in his failure, rather than being an actual statement of fact. Life with the Classic Doctors was much more haphazard - companions came aboard for a wide variety of reasons, and the close relationships they developed with the Doctor came later. He didn't go around auditioning potential companions in order to choose the best candidates. He just rolled with whoever came along, for the most part. Which is why I really like the accidental nature of Ryan, Yaz and Graham getting caught up in the teleport in this episode - it is just such an old school way of hurling new companions into space without either them or the Doctor ever intending it to happen!

.

My perception is that by the time of the 9th generation -- he had traveled with so many companions -- who yes sometimes randomly wandered into the TARDIS  (which is weird because in the NEW Who he locks the door) that he can pick out one on first sight that he knows will travel well. Or be able to somewhat handle his craziness. Or for whatever reason makes an impression on him.

I have always been charmed by the Doctor's relationship with all his companions-- some more than others. I loved Tegan and she and the Doctor had a ... tumultuous relationship (somewhat like Clara the Capaldi Doctor--- snide comments and such)<< which GOD I loved that! 

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44 minutes ago, taanja said:

My perception is that by the time of the 9th generation -- he had traveled with so many companions -- who yes sometimes randomly wandered into the TARDIS  (which is weird because in the NEW Who he locks the door) that he can pick out one on first sight that he knows will travel well. Or be able to somewhat handle his craziness. Or for whatever reason makes an impression on him.

You might be right. Maybe he can. But I prefer it when the companions haven't been hand-picked for their suitability, when they are thrown together for other reasons and have to learn how to cope on the fly. I remember way back, before Clara, reading an interview with Moffat in which he described the process of creating a new companion, and he said something about having to come up with the kind of characters who would want to travel in the TARDIS and would be good at adventuring, and I thought then that it was the wrong approach, because if you only ever use that one archetype to build new characters, it gets very samey: pair of adrenaline junkies roaming the universe together. Been there, done that, many times over since the reboot began. But if you open the field up to other personality types, and allow for the possibility of someone getting caught up in these adventures without having intended it, and without having been chosen for their suitability, suddenly there are all kinds of other storylines and personality types and relationships to explore and develop. So I am happy to see these three getting chucked in at the deep end without either them or the Doctor intended it - it sets up a new kind of story that we haven't yet seen in the reboot.

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3 minutes ago, Llywela said:

You might be right. Maybe he can. But I prefer it when the companions haven't been hand-picked for their suitability, when they are thrown together for other reasons and have to learn how to cope on the fly. I remember way back, before Clara, reading an interview with Moffat in which he described the process of creating a new companion, and he said something about having to come up with the kind of characters who would want to travel in the TARDIS and would be good at adventuring, and I thought then that it was the wrong approach, because if you only ever use that one archetype to build new characters, it gets very samey: pair of adrenaline junkies roaming the universe together. Been there, done that, many times over since the reboot began. But if you open the field up to other personality types, and allow for the possibility of someone getting caught up in these adventures without having intended it, and without having been chosen for their suitability, suddenly there are all kinds of other storylines and personality types and relationships to explore and develop. So I am happy to see these three getting chucked in at the deep end without either them or the Doctor intended it - it sets up a new kind of story that we haven't yet seen in the reboot.

I know it's all in my own little head. I have loved the Doctor for so long -- it's possible I create scenarios (in my head) to make everything kosher in my little world.

Edited to add: I don't read behind the scenes anything. I know nuthin' bout the writers/creators/producers ideas about anything. I am only going by what I see and my perceptions of that.

Edited by taanja

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1 hour ago, taanja said:

My perception is that by the time of the 9th generation -- he had traveled with so many companions -- who yes sometimes randomly wandered into the TARDIS  (which is weird because in the NEW Who he locks the door) that he can pick out one on first sight that he knows will travel well. Or be able to somewhat handle his craziness. Or for whatever reason makes an impression on him.

I have always been charmed by the Doctor's relationship with all his companions-- some more than others. I loved Tegan and she and the Doctor had a ... tumultuous relationship (somewhat like Clara the Capaldi Doctor--- snide comments and such)<< which GOD I loved that! 

At one point (Matt Smith I think), the Doctor says, "I never know why. I only know who."

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7 minutes ago, ae2 said:

At one point (Matt Smith I think), the Doctor says, "I never know why. I only know who."

I love this!  It verifies what I feel when I watch the Doctor and any new companions!

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1 hour ago, taanja said:

I have always been charmed by the Doctor's relationship with all his companions-- some more than others. I loved Tegan and she and the Doctor had a ... tumultuous relationship (somewhat like Clara the Capaldi Doctor--- snide comments and such)<< which GOD I loved that! 

Donna will always be my favorite companion.

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2 minutes ago, Dobian said:

Donna will always be my favorite companion.

Right! I loved Donna! One of my all time favorites! 

But I have loved many - -- Harry Sullivan (I know most loved Sarah Jane but Harry stole my heart!) Leela...Romana... Adric...Tegan ... Perry (I named my eldest daughter Tegan).. Rose.. Martha... Donna... Clara...

I want to fall in love with one of the new companions. Usually the very first ep clinches my affection ... but none of the new ones stood out as anything special.

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I finally had time to watch.  I loved it.  She could have been any gender. There were references to previous Doctors when her memory was coming back.  I did like Gram.  I guess we'll never have a middle age female companion in new Who. 

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On 10/9/2018 at 9:39 PM, Llywela said:

Carl did sort of know about the DNA bombs, yes, because the Doctor and Tim Shaw had a whole conversation about them right in front of him - but how much of it he understood is debatable. He lashed out at a defeated enemy, that's what the Doctor was angry about. Tim Shaw was beaten and was already dying - the Doctor tossed the recall device to him so he could teleport home to die (or possibly in the remote chance that he could be healed before the DNA bombs killed him). He then did teleport home while falling, so it isn't as if Carl killed him - he was dying anyway, and never hit the ground. So I think it was the vengefulness of the act that the Doctor objected to - although as you say, it is hard not to sympathise with Carl there!

I just went back to watch that scene, and unless I've missed something, both the Doctor and Tzim-Sha only referred to "bombs", not "DNA bombs" (not that Karl would have known what that meant, since he wasn't present for the Doctor's explanation earlier). If he managed to follow the conversation at all, as a contemporary human, he would have had to assume that Tzim-Sha was about to blow up rather than melt into goo. Therefore, I can't fault him for kicking the alien who as far as he knew was going to explode any second now and was standing right next to him and the Doctor on a crane arm high up in the air off said crane arm. From his point of view, it's much more of a self-defence and strange-woman-who-rescued-me-defence decision, really.

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I liked the more deliberate pacing -- so unlike the Moffat-era frantic pacing -- and I also liked the more realistic tone. (Moffat could get a bit cartoonish). This episode felt less Who, more like one of the comedic X-files episodes.

But Moffat had original ideas. I worry about Chibnall. I suspect the only science fiction concepts he knows are from TV and movies, and we're only going to get rip-offs from familiar stories, as this episode ripped off 'Predator'.

To be honest, my favorite era of DW ripped off every Hammer Horror film and Gothic story possible, and it was still fun. Plus, Tom Baker at his best, wide-eyed self.

Every Doctor has trouble regenerating. Someone mentioned Six didn't. He tried to strangle Peri. 

I loved her. It was a lot of fun with the slower pace and the small alien threat to a few folks. Felt more like proper DW to me. I was never a fan of the WHIZ!BANG! Moff plots. 

I also adored the speech about her family, which was a callback to the Second Doctor's mention of his family in TOMB OF THE CYBERMEN. Lovely. 

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19 minutes ago, WAnglais1 said:

I also adored the speech about her family, which was a callback to the Second Doctor's mention of his family in TOMB OF THE CYBERMEN. Lovely. 

I love this scene and watch it on YouTube a lot.  It really is lovely.

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20 hours ago, taanja said:

Right! I loved Donna! One of my all time favorites! 

But I have loved many - -- Harry Sullivan (I know most loved Sarah Jane but Harry stole my heart!) Leela...Romana... Adric...Tegan ... Perry (I named my eldest daughter Tegan).. Rose.. Martha... Donna... Clara...

I want to fall in love with one of the new companions. Usually the very first ep clinches my affection ... but none of the new ones stood out as anything special.

I loved Gram, but alas, she didn't get to stay with us very long.  And she was the strongest, bravest woman!  If they wanted to give young girls a role model, I don't know why they didn't stick with her.  I do like the other three but am worried already about how they are going to out.  It doesn't pay to get too attached, I guess. 

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I forget how Rise gets chosen but despite her fan favoriteness she has never been mine.  I know The Tenth Doctor was genuinely impressed with Martha Jones and she was kinda just along fir the ride.   Donna Noble just appeared on his TARDIS and actually turned him down before regretting it and seeking him out.  When Ten regenerated into Eleven the first person he saw was a young Amy Pond and he promised to take her on a trip but didn’t come back she years because.,..well whatever.  Amy and Rory were there because Eleven was simply liked them.  

As for Clara I agree I wouldn’t have been as annoyed if her story had ended with her sacrificing herself by jumping into the time stream.  That would have been one of the best most tragically beautiful endings in a series full of tragically beautiful endings.

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6 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

I loved Gram, but alas, she didn't get to stay with us very long.  And she was the strongest, bravest woman!  If they wanted to give young girls a role model, I don't know why they didn't stick with her.  I do like the other three but am worried already about how they are going to out.  It doesn't pay to get too attached, I guess. 

Gran (Gram?) had a red shirt on -- it was blaring! I knew she was a gonner from the moment she spoke.

That has always been my motto over the years-- it also applies to the actor playing the Doctor. -- DON"T GET TOO ATTACHED!

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6 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I forget how Rise gets chosen but despite her fan favoriteness she has never been mine.  I know The Tenth Doctor was genuinely impressed with Martha Jones and she was kinda just along fir the ride.   Donna Noble just appeared on his TARDIS and actually turned him down before regretting it and seeking him out.  When Ten regenerated into Eleven the first person he saw was a young Amy Pond and he promised to take her on a trip but didn’t come back she years because.,..well whatever.  Amy and Rory were there because Eleven was simply liked them.  

As for Clara I agree I wouldn’t have been as annoyed if her story had ended with her sacrificing herself by jumping into the time stream.  That would have been one of the best most tragically beautiful endings in a series full of tragically beautiful endings.

IIRC, Rose was in the right place at the right time when aliens were trying to invade. She got caught up in helping Nine get rid of them and he invited her along for a trip when they’d finished the job. 

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So, so, SO pumped for this new series of the show. Really like Whittaker already, can buy her as the Doctor straight away, really curious to see more. I do like what appears to be a kinder, more empathetic version of the Doctor though am a bit cynical how it's the first female incarnation we get this for. I hope we get more of Thirteen fucking up and getting grumpy and too full of hubris sometimes, seeing as a) I love that about the Doctor, and b) we so VERY rarely get that in a female hero. (From an audience perspective, the Doctor is "a female hero" now.)

I felt Grace's death was too on the nose for me. Forced. It just didn't sit right.

The theme tune at the end was WONDERFULLLLLLL, though a lot of it is childhood nostalgia for me, but spooky and weird is A++++ for me.

I'm excited that one of the guest stars in the montage at the end has got a dashing masculine look to her. Representation, thankyou.

The script didn't have quite as many delightful funny quips and mad turns as Moffat's I don't think, but although I think "Heaven Sent" was the heavenly zenith of all he could accomplish, I was pretty sick of the twisty-twist plots on the whole. Great characterisation, sweeping alien vistas and horrible scares, and biting commentary on power is what I'll take for this era, please and thanks.

 

On 10/9/2018 at 5:25 AM, taanja said:

And how did the Doctor end up on that train without the TARDIS? I found that weird and random.

It's pretty much built into the DNA of the show, the Doctor always seems to turn up in the right place at the right time. I just go with it, personally.

On 10/9/2018 at 6:26 AM, John Potts said:

Clearly the modern Doctor isn't hurt (much) by falling great distances any more.

 

Yeah, wasn't Four killed by a big fall? The Doctor is clearly more robust than humans though. Ten fell quite a distance in the End of Time and was pretty battered but okay. The roof broke his fall and probably the train did here too. My headcanon is that if the newly regenerating Ten can regrow a hand, then the newly regenerating Thirteen can heal from a huge fall.

On 10/9/2018 at 8:30 AM, HauntedBathroom said:

Agreed with all of this. Why is the teenage girl even there? She did nothing all episode, and three companions hasn't worked since 1967.

The police officer who you dismiss as a "teenage girl" was very active throughout the episode I saw, which seems to be the same one you were watching. Although being Australian I did watch 8 or 9 minutes more than was apparently in the first BBCA broadcast.

I loved the Tegan, Nyssa and Turlough combo, myself. And Rose, Mickey and Captain Jack, all too briefly. But regardless, isn't it time to try it again in 50 years before dismissing it from the outset?

On 10/10/2018 at 6:39 AM, Llywela said:

 So I think it was the vengefulness of the act that the Doctor objected to - although as you say, it is hard not to sympathise with Carl there!

The show has explored the Doctor's idealistic/lofty morality vs pragmatic/emotive human moralities before, this is very much in line with this. Viewers would be split as to who they sympathise with more, and I adore it when a show does that.

Edited by Kite
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8 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I forget how Rise gets chosen but despite her fan favoriteness she has never been mine.  I know The Tenth Doctor was genuinely impressed with Martha Jones and she was kinda just along fir the ride.   Donna Noble just appeared on his TARDIS and actually turned him down before regretting it and seeking him out.  When Ten regenerated into Eleven the first person he saw was a young Amy Pond and he promised to take her on a trip but didn’t come back she years because.,..well whatever.  Amy and Rory were there because Eleven was simply liked them.  

As for Clara I agree I wouldn’t have been as annoyed if her story had ended with her sacrificing herself by jumping into the time stream.  That would have been one of the best most tragically beautiful endings in a series full of tragically beautiful endings.

I think that with Amy it was a bit more complicated than that wasn't it?  Amy was along because of the crack in time.  He says this at the end of season one, he was aware that the crack never closed and he took her along knowing that she had had the whole universe flowing into her head.

With both Rose and Donna the problem was different.  I agree that they weren't picked because they were special (like Amy or Clara) but by the end of the season they were MOST IMPORTANT PEOPLE IN THE WORLD.  Rose became bad wolf because she swallowed the Tardis's energy and Donna became a unique being because of the merging with the Doctor's extra hand (left over from Tennant's regeneration) etc.  Martha got the short end of the straw of course coming between the two MOST IMPORTANT PEOPLE IN THE WORLD.

It is the over importance of the companion that messed up both the RTD as well as Moffat eras.  

Anyway, I thought that this was great.  JW was even more fab than I expected--she seemed very much a classic Doctor (despite appearing on Sunday) and the story was nicely contained and not about a puzzle that was gradually going to reveal itself (I hope) 5 years later to be about the Time Lords seeking to return to the universe from where they have been hiding.

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4 hours ago, call me ishmael said:

the story was nicely contained and not about a puzzle that was gradually going to reveal itself (I hope) 5 years later to be about the Time Lords seeking to return to the universe from where they have been hiding.

I like some self-contained stories for a refreshing change, but sue me, I really like the Time Lords and wish they'd pop out eventually and continue to give the Doctor all sorts of grief like they used to!

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9 hours ago, call me ishmael said:

but by the end of the season they were MOST IMPORTANT PEOPLE IN THE WORLD.

It is the over importance of the companion that messed up both the RTD as well as Moffat eras.  

Eh, that's just because (1) the companions have outgrown their role as vessels through which the audience can experience the Doctor, and have become characters in their own right; and (2) writers feel the need to consistently up the stakes.

If you look at any long-running drama (2) always becomes a problem. How many times did they save the planet/galaxy/universe/time in Star Trek? (Almost as many as in DW). On a different scale but the same premise, every cop show eventually gets to a point where the cops are saving the city from a nuclear bomb, or taking down the most notorious serial killer ever; hospital shows eventually deal with plague outbreaks, or some sort of huge disaster which affects the entire city. And it always gets personal - the police officer's wife was targeted by the serial killer, the police officer's brother was the serial killer, the doctor's kid was affected by the plague. And so on.

With DW the same thing happens it just gets exacerbated. There's now 50ish years of DW upping the stakes. 

Then you add in the fact that your main character has essentially been the same character for 800+ episodes, you realize it's so much easier to write character development for a companion than it is for The Doctor, and it's easy to see why new-Who companions are so important to the world/galaxy/universe/time/reality.

My biggest hope for the new show runner is that he can somehow escape (2) while still telling a compelling story. It's okay if The Doctor doesn't have to save the universe twice a season every season. It's okay if The Doctor is simply having adventures, or dealing with small problems that only affect a few people.

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I don't mind the companions becoming important people.  But I like the to have to earn that distinction instead of being saddled with a gimmick before they get onto the Tardis like "The Impossible Girl."

The Tardis team of The Second Doctor, Jamie, and Zoe is a great one and a very underrated one too.  Jamie was the first real buddy that The Doctor had and served as his muscle.  Zoe was a companion who could actually match The Doctor on an intellectual level and they had a good friendly rivalry with that.  It was a perfect Tardis team.

Edited by benteen
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1 hour ago, benteen said:

I don't mind the companions becoming important people.  But I like the to have to earn that distinction instead of being saddled with a gimmick before they get onto the Tardis like "The Impossible Girl."

Yeah, Donna and Martha don't bother me because they were just ordinary people who weren't important who stepped up and did something extraordinary. But what they did only really affected their time with the Doctor, and gave him some residual guilt/memories. The trouble with Clara is that Jackass felt this need to stick his hands into every era of Dr Who. It wasn't enough for him to have a character he created affect the Doctor in the present and possibly future, he had to go insert his character into the very creation of the Doctor. I mean, of course it was Clara who told him to take the Tardis thereby basically creating the premise for the entire show. Because heaven for bid he not piss over every single part of this decades old show. He basically peed all over the Tardis like a dog marking his territory and he used Clara to do it ruining both her character and his legacy. (for some of us, others must have loved her since she lasted so freaking long and I'm glad they enjoyed it but sad that I didn't.)

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1 hour ago, benteen said:

The Tardis team of The Second Doctor, Jamie, and Zoe is a great one and a very underrated one too.  Jamie was the first real buddy that The Doctor had and served as his muscle.  Zoe was a companion who could actually match The Doctor on an intellectual level and they had a good friendly rivalry with that.  It was a perfect Tardis team.

This is my favorite team.  They were perfect.  I also liked Victoria too.  I just loved the second doctor in general.  He is my favorite.

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38 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

Yeah, Donna and Martha don't bother me because they were just ordinary people who weren't important who stepped up and did something extraordinary. But what they did only really affected their time with the Doctor, and gave him some residual guilt/memories. The trouble with Clara is that Jackass felt this need to stick his hands into every era of Dr Who. It wasn't enough for him to have a character he created affect the Doctor in the present and possibly future, he had to go insert his character into the very creation of the Doctor. I mean, of course it was Clara who told him to take the Tardis thereby basically creating the premise for the entire show. Because heaven for bid he not piss over every single part of this decades old show. He basically peed all over the Tardis like a dog marking his territory and he used Clara to do it ruining both her character and his legacy. (for some of us, others must have loved her since she lasted so freaking long and I'm glad they enjoyed it but sad that I didn't.)

I just ignore that.  At the very least, I look at it like an infection that Clara had to cure because yeah, that was pretty stupid.

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On 10/10/2018 at 2:41 PM, Llywela said:

You might be right. Maybe he can. But I prefer it when the companions haven't been hand-picked for their suitability, when they are thrown together for other reasons and have to learn how to cope on the fly. I remember way back, before Clara, reading an interview with Moffat in which he described the process of creating a new companion, and he said something about having to come up with the kind of characters who would want to travel in the TARDIS and would be good at adventuring, and I thought then that it was the wrong approach, because if you only ever use that one archetype to build new characters, it gets very samey: pair of adrenaline junkies roaming the universe together. Been there, done that, many times over since the reboot began. But if you open the field up to other personality types, and allow for the possibility of someone getting caught up in these adventures without having intended it, and without having been chosen for their suitability, suddenly there are all kinds of other storylines and personality types and relationships to explore and develop. So I am happy to see these three getting chucked in at the deep end without either them or the Doctor intended it - it sets up a new kind of story that we haven't yet seen in the reboot.

Hi!

The only problem I have with that scenario -- is that "normal" people won't be fast enough-- smart enough -- just not enough anything to survive.

There would be dead bodies everywhere. Not all personality types can handle life with the Doctor. Especially not some normal schlub.

Hence I stand by my statement that the companions are "chosen" whether seemingly randomly or specifically.--because they are special.

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Hello, Closed Captioning, it's been a while.

Being able to detect two separate pulses? Uh, it would be far more realistic for her to think there was some sort of funky arrhythmia going on.

A technologically advanced race that can cross 500 hundred galaxies and does so so they can choose a new leader by hunting down and killing a not very formidable prey? Without any referees or monitors? Yeh, whatever.

So it's been a while since the Doctor has bought women's clothes. Well, I'd say she still needs a lot more practice. :-P

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17 hours ago, taanja said:

The only problem I have with that scenario -- is that "normal" people won't be fast enough-- smart enough -- just not enough anything to survive.

There would be dead bodies everywhere. Not all personality types can handle life with the Doctor. Especially not some normal schlub.

Hence I stand by my statement that the companions are "chosen" whether seemingly randomly or specifically.--because they are special.

We're getting a bit off-topic for this episode here, but I think the history of the show for the last 50+ years would beg to differ with you. We've already discussed how the vast majority of companions have been normal people who got swept along with the Doctor by accident, not because they were chosen for their suitability - pretty much all of them managed just fine, proving both fast enough and smart enough, and there weren't dead bodies everywhere. And I include New Who companions in that - Rose, Donna, Rory, and so on, were all very normal people. I have seen every episode ever made of this show, including the ones that don't exist any more (thanks to the magic of recons), and it has always been a large part of the point of the show: ordinary people getting swept along on this incredible adventure, and learning that they can cope, that they are capable of more than they ever imagined, that they too can be heroes. It has always been a huge part of the selling power of the show, that the Doctor's companion could be anyone - it could be you, it could be me. Because you don't have to be special, you don't have to be qualified, you just have to be willing to dig deep and be brave, and even the most unlikely of people can (and do) find themselves capable of that, when put to the test.

I could go into more detail on this, but at this point I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree, since it is clear that we have very different interpretations of the show.

On topic, I am looking forward to the second episode tomorrow to find out how the cliffhanger will be resolved and how the trio of new companions will react to being accidentally kidnapped into space!

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I didn't like that the showed the fancy/numerous earrings, they could have revealed them in a later episode, since I am sure the previous doctor didn't have those before regenerating. The earrings were cute, I usually don't like excessive earrings. They made it look more like a film rather than a TV program.

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On 10/7/2018 at 9:01 PM, elle said:

How beautiful were those opening shots with that great vista?  Where was this filmed?

I assumed at first that those scenes were filmed up in the Peaks, since I know they did some filming in Yorkshire, but have since confirmed that most if not all of those 'up on the Peaks' scenes were in fact filmed in the South Wales Valleys - my other half immediately recognised the spot where Ryan sits and mopes while Grace and Graham give him a pep talk after chucking his bike over the edge; he's sat on that same ridge himself many times. When Ryan climbed down into woodland, that was definitely not the Peaks; probably also filmed in the valleys.

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15 hours ago, Terrafamilia said:

So it's been a while since the Doctor has bought women's clothes. Well, I'd say she still needs a lot more practice. :-P

Heee!! I do hope she gets better at it when Chibnall's not having to push the "not like a sexy human woman AT ALL" thing so hard.

1 hour ago, AnimeMania said:

I didn't like that the showed the fancy/numerous earrings, they could have revealed them in a later episode, since I am sure the previous doctor didn't have those before regenerating. The earrings were cute, I usually don't like excessive earrings. They made it look more like a film rather than a TV program.

I'm just concerned that they're studs. Pearced earrings + action sequences = torn ears and blood everywhere.

Edited by HauntedBathroom
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16 hours ago, Terrafamilia said:

So it's been a while since the Doctor has bought women's clothes. Well, I'd say she still needs a lot more practice. :-P

Depends on what her budget was and whether it was new or used.

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5 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

I didn't like that the showed the fancy/numerous earrings, they could have revealed them in a later episode, since I am sure the previous doctor didn't have those before regenerating. 

There was a joke going around Tumblr that the Doctor popped into Claires to get a few sweet piercings first. I like to think she found the jewellery in the op shop and casually shoved it through her ears. 

I ADORE that the outfit came from a charity shop. I mean, so fricking funny, because it looks it and she's so cheerful about it.

She didn't HAVE to buy "women's" clothes though. The show just assumed that was necessary. I mean, lots of "men's" clothes fit ME fine, and they bloody suit me too.

The actor actually suggested to the show-runner that she should chop all the hair off so it didn't flop in the Doctor's face when she ran around, but he wanted to keep it longer. (Colour me not surprised by that, we have an attractive youngish blonde feminine woman as a show lead for Chibnall's new "higher ratings or bust" era.)

Edited by Kite
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On 10/11/2018 at 7:08 PM, Kite said:

The theme tune at the end was WONDERFULLLLLLL, though a lot of it is childhood nostalgia for me, but spooky and weird is A++++ for me.

Thanks for pointing this out.  I saw that the episode was on BBCA again late this evening and turned in just in time to see the last five minutes.  Got to hear the theme and see what may be the new credits.  It will be interesting to compare it to episode 2.

6 hours ago, Kite said:

She didn't HAVE to buy "women's" clothes though. The show just assumed that was necessary. I mean, lots of "men's" clothes fit ME fine, and they bloody suit me too.

I thought she looked better in the white shirt, vest combo.  She seemed to run just fine in those trousers too.  JW said in one interview I saw that she choose the culottes because they were easier to move in.

11 hours ago, Llywela said:

I assumed at first that those scenes were filmed up in the Peaks, since I know they did some filming in Yorkshire, but have since confirmed that most if not all of those 'up on the Peaks' scenes were in fact filmed in the South Wales Valleys - my other half immediately recognised the spot where Ryan sits and mopes while Grace and Graham give him a pep talk after chucking his bike over the edge; he's sat on that same ridge himself many times. When Ryan climbed down into woodland, that was definitely not the Peaks; probably also filmed in the valleys.

Thank you, Llywela and your other half!  I will add this to my wish list of place I want to see someday.

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On 10/7/2018 at 3:20 PM, The Companion said:

I loved it. I am sure I will have more thoughts later, but I am ALL IN on Jodie Whittaker.

I agree. I was worried they would try too hard but I totally enjoyed the episode and thought Jodie was great.

On 10/9/2018 at 3:30 PM, libgirl2 said:

It felt odd, no TARDIS, no opening.... I need my opening.....

They need a reason to keep the companions with her.

If she returns them to Earth immediately, she companionless.

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I'm late, but I really enjoyed the teamwork of the whole episode. Even with the old guy being kind of whiny, though I'm sure I would be too if I had a bomb in me, everyone contributed. I hope that's a recurring theme this season.

I know it's corny, but I loved the close up "I'm the Doctor". You could just see her whole demeanor change. I was like, "uh oh Tim Shaw, you better run!"

Although this was a little slow paced at times, I enjoyed it, and I thought JW was fantastic. 

Wow, I was really surprised the grandmother actually died. 

Edited by ganesh
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Just wanted to clear up a bit of confusion regarding the pod (a.k.a. "Hershey's Kiss").

My daughter and I watched the episode together, 550 miles apart. We were texting back and forth during the episode. As soon as the pod appeared, we simultaneously texted each other: "Look! A tagine!"

A tagine is a cooking vessel made of clay, primarily used in the cuisines of African/Middle Eastern cultures (and some alien cultures as well, apparently).

We figured Tzim Sha just wanted to enjoy some good ol' home cookin' while he was wreaking havoc here on Earth. So, TAGINE, not Hershey's Kiss!

59dfd4e39fc28_DSC_23121.thumb.JPG.72301ed96cc018aa71cd6689b1b51166.JPG(Oh, and BTW, we're not African or Middle Eastern; we just love to cook and experience the cuisines of different cultures, hence the reason we have a tagine).

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40 minutes ago, TwirlyGirly said:

My daughter and I watched the episode together, 550 miles apart. We were texting back and forth during the episode.

I love this statement on so many levels.  I love that this show appeals to multiple generations. And I love that modern technology, which can often be a distraction that prevents you from really immersing yourself a show (multi-tasking is the enemy of concentration), in this case actually enhanced your enjoyment of the show and allowed you to share that frisson of recognition with your daughter.

Edited by WatchrTina
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6 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

I love this statement on so many levels.  I love that this show appeals to multiple generations. And I love that modern technology, which can often be a distraction that prevents you from really immersing yourself a show (multi-tasking is the enemy of concentration), in this case actually enhanced your enjoyment of the show and allowed you to share that frisson of recognition with your daughter.

Although my daughter and I enjoy several of the same programs, Doctor Who is the only one we watch "together".

She's a college senior, and is involved in activities (sorority, Mock Trial, etc.) which occasionally interfere with her being able to watch Doctor Who at the same time the episode airs. In that case, I record the episode and wait to view it when she has time to watch it, too.

I'm not quite sure why we do this with Doctor Who and not with other series we both like. It may be because with Doctor Who, much more time elapses between seasons, so we experience more anticipation and excitement of each new season and each new episode than we do with other series, and are perhaps then more invested in sharing that with each other? It just doesn't seem *fair* to either of us for one to watch an episode if the other cannot.

At the beginning of the season, right before the first episode aired, we thought the only way she could watch it was through Amazon....which would mean we'd have to delay watching each episode by one day (she then discovered she could stream the episodes as they aired through BBCA online).

But if it were not possible for her to stream this season of Doctor Who at all, I would have recorded all the episodes and waited for her to come home for Xmas, so we could binge watch them together, rather than watching the episodes alone as they aired.

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