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3 hours ago, Dee said:

But the issue at hand was a micro problem, not a macro issue.

But Bow is getting it from her own husband. It's one thing to have strangers and people from the "outside" world talk their junk, but when your own husband makes regular "jokes" about it, it's got to get tiresome real quick. If I were Bow I would be wondering why he even married me if he is so disdainful of my biracial heritage. I would've told him to kindly STFU years ago.

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4 minutes ago, Gothish520 said:

But Bow is getting it from her own husband.

She's not. Her problems with their jokes and/or comments stem directly from the long neglected issues of her own which she refuses to deal with.

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Huh, I thought her problems with their jokes and/or comments stemmed directly from the fact that they are deliberately mean, belittling, and hurtful.

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If lightskinned jokes occupied a similar cultural context as darkskinned jokes then they would be. But they don't, so they aren't.

And as red12 previously said: The casting of the children has also engaged in conflating light skinned black people with two black parents and biracial people. There is a more nuanced discussion to be had about how colorism, racial hierarchy and access to privileges changes when people who actually are biracial are added to the colorism mix.

There are a tremendous amount of existing nuances in this particular discussion, had by these particular actors, on this particular show that are being conveniently disregarded solely to attack unpopular characters.

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Full disclosure: I am a White man married to a Black (similar to Lupita Nyong'o). I realize that I have not had the same experience as any Black Person.

On 1/16/2019 at 8:01 AM, MadyGirl1987 said:

My main takeaway was that colorism is an issue that divides the black community and needs to be addressed.

Same.

On 1/16/2019 at 10:48 AM, Empress1 said:

I found this interesting because I do think Dre thinks Junior isn't Black enough but I always thought that was because of Junior's nerdy interests, not because of his fair complexion.

I think it's both.  And this show CONSISTANTLY ignores previous episodes, so any comments along those lines can miss me.

On 1/16/2019 at 9:42 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

When they were all apologizing to each other at the end, I was hoping that the larger message the Johnsons learned is "maybe we should ALL stop being such assholes to each other."

It would be nice but Not Gonna Happen.  I wager next week this episode will be forgotten.

On 1/17/2019 at 5:41 PM, steelyis said:

Or how there are a lot of dark-skinned black people who only want light-skinned children and how that influences who they hook up with, or marry.

Particularly Black men who only date or marry White women.  They don't get .01% of the grief Serena Williams got for hooking up with a White man.

The hierarchy that I see is:

Whites (male and female)

Light-skinned women (includes Latinas and those from the Indian sub-continent)

Light-skinned men

Black men

...

...

Black women

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15 hours ago, Dee said:

She's not. Her problems with their jokes and/or comments stem directly from the long neglected issues of her own which she refuses to deal with.

Ruby had repeatedly called Bow a zebra, and other similar insults.  Those comments were meant to be insults, not comments lovingly made to her biracial daughter-in-law, and they were perceived as such due to the usual manner in which Ruby addressed Bow. Ruby has now admitted she called Bow names like that in response to being verbally abused by her own family for having dark skin (which Bow had no way of knowing, but which wouldn't make it any more justified.)

Dre copied Ruby's manner of addressing Bow (although using different words) because he idolizes his mother.  I don't see how Bow's "problems with their jokes and/or comments stem directly from the long neglected issues of her own which she refuses to deal with" except possibly that she needs to confront Dre about how he must grow up and take his wife's side when his mother insults her, and not pile on to please his mother.  (However, I don't want a repeat of last season's final episodes.)

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15 hours ago, Dee said:

If lightskinned jokes occupied a similar cultural context as darkskinned jokes then they would be. But they don't, so they aren't.

And as red12 previously said: The casting of the children has also engaged in conflating light skinned black people with two black parents and biracial people. There is a more nuanced discussion to be had about how colorism, racial hierarchy and access to privileges changes when people who actually are biracial are added to the colorism mix.

There are a tremendous amount of existing nuances in this particular discussion, had by these particular actors, on this particular show that are being conveniently disregarded solely to attack unpopular characters.

Well I like everyone on the show so I'm not trying to attack anyone. I base my praise and criticism on what the characters do and say. Bow's not perfect by any means, but being upset because she gets mocked for being biracial does not diminish what Dre, Ruby, and Diane have experienced by being darker-skinned. I don't disregard anyone's pain or experiences, but I will call out a character for treating another one badly. There is plenty of criticism to go around for all the characters in that regard, at one time or another.

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Ruby had repeatedly called Bow a zebra, and other similar insults.  Those comments were meant to be insults, not comments lovingly made to her biracial daughter-in-law, and they were perceived as such due to the usual manner in which Ruby addressed Bow. 

There's a power differential there. If Rainbow were secure in her own skin, they wouldn't bother her.

And Rainbow has literally spent an entire episode "joking" about killing Ruby. If Ruby were to take offense to that...as a darkskinned woman, would you be as quick to defend Saint Rainbow?

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Ruby has now admitted she called Bow names like that in response to being verbally abused by her own family for having dark skin (which Bow had no way of knowing, but which wouldn't make it any more justified.)

Because the show is never going to admit that equating lightskinned/biracial issues with darkskinned issues is absolute garbage. There is nothing morally equivalent between biracial/lightskinned people and darkskinned black people. But there always has to be some justification for lightskinned black people to foreground their issues above everyone else's.

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Dre copied Ruby's manner of addressing Bow (although using different words) because he idolizes his mother.

Except Andre didn't. Andre & Rainbow communicated in their current manner long before Ruby ever appeared.

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I don't see how Bow's "problems with their jokes and/or comments stem directly from the long neglected issues of her own which she refuses to deal with" except possibly that she needs to confront Dre about how he must grow up and take his wife's side when his mother insults her, and not pile on to please his mother.  (However, I don't want a repeat of last season's final episodes.)

Rainbow has a ton of unresolved issues about her race, but because she considers herself enlightened about race, she is never forced to spend any time dealing with the root of her issues. Instead, she condescendingly lectures others about how 'limited' they are.

32 minutes ago, Gothish520 said:

Bow's not perfect by any means, but being upset because she gets mocked for being biracial

The same way Rainbow and her parents mock Earl/Ruby/Andre's cultural touchstones and experiences with blackness?

Edited by Dee

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7 minutes ago, Dee said:

There's a power differential there. If Rainbow were secure in her own skin, they wouldn't bother her.

And Rainbow has literally spent an entire episode "joking" about killing Ruby. If Ruby were to take offense to that...as a darkskinned woman, would you be as quick to defend Saint Rainbow?

Because the show is never going to admit that equating lightskinned/biracial issues with darkskinned issues is absolute garbage. There is nothing morally equivalent between biracial/lightskinned people and darkskinned black people. But there always has to be some justification for lightskinned black people to foreground their issues above everyone else's.

Except Andre didn't. Andre & Rainbow communicated in their current manner long before Ruby ever appeared.

Rainbow has a ton of unresolved issues about her race, but because she considers herself enlightened about race, she is never forced to spend any time dealing with the root of her issues. Instead, she condescendingly lectures others about how 'limited' they are.

The same way Rainbow and her parents mock Earl/Ruby/Andre's cultural touchstones and experiences with blackness?

I hear what you're saying. I do think that this episode was trying to show that all of the mocking and belittling is wrong. They didn't delve deep but at least they touched on how there is plenty of bad behavior from all sides that needs to stop. The main issue I have is that Bow has never been shown to be prejudiced against other family members for their skin tone (which would be insane, IMO), while Dre and Ruby have definitely made Bow's biracial heritage fodder for ridicule.

BTW I never find jokes about killing someone or someone dying funny. Bow was definitely creeping me out in that episode! That being said, of all the family dynamics, Ruby's treatment of Bow is by far the most egregious. She has been quite cruel to Bow, and it's NOT acceptable, especially in Bow's own house. 

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7 hours ago, Dee said:
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Ruby had repeatedly called Bow a zebra, and other similar insults.  Those comments were meant to be insults, not comments lovingly made to her biracial daughter-in-law, and they were perceived as such due to the usual manner in which Ruby addressed Bow. 

There's a power differential there. If Rainbow were secure in her own skin, they wouldn't bother her.

So here's a hypothetical question: if we assume (and people are free to disagree), that it's generally easier to be of Asian heritage than of African heritage in the US, does that mean if an African-American spouse uses racial insults against his/her Asian-American spouse, the insults shouldn't bother the Asian-American spouse if said spouse is comfortable in his/her own skin?  What if that spouse was taunted in childhood for being Asian?  Are they now at fault for not being able to push such insults aside?

7 hours ago, Dee said:

And Rainbow has literally spent an entire episode "joking" about killing Ruby. If Ruby were to take offense to that...as a darkskinned woman, would you be as quick to defend Saint Rainbow?

Was Bow making those "jokes" because Ruby was darkskinned?  Or because she had had enough of being taunted and verbally abused in her own house for years?

Edited by ItCouldBeWorse
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5 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Was Bow making those "jokes" because Ruby was "darkskinned?"  Or because she had had enough of being taunted and verbally abused in her own house for years?

Obviously, the answer is the second reason, but there will be no convincing people who are determined to make Bow the bad guy/gal in every single situation that it isn't the first reason.

Ruby and Dre could stab Bow (or Junior, although that would just be Dre) to death just for the hell of it, and some would still find a way to make it Bow's (or Junior's) fault.  I mean, honestly.

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26 minutes ago, Gothish520 said:

I do think that this episode was trying to show that all of the mocking and belittling is wrong.

It was about Rainbow & Junior latching onto any issue to martyr themselves about the extremely inconsequential.

Junior never explained how the whole family is "colorist," beyond the fact that they find him to be a giant dork.

But who needs logic when petty grievances are all that matters.

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The main issue I have is that Bow has never been shown to be prejudiced against other family members for their skin tone (which would be insane, IMO), while Dre and Ruby have definitely made Bow's biracial heritage fodder for ridicule

She has been extremely dismissive of their cultural touchstones and experiences with blackness.  So if Rainbow's complexion counts as her 'biracial heritage' than Earl/Ruby/Andre's life experiences count as their 'dark skinned heritage.'

Edited by Dee
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Are they now at fault for not being able to push such insults aside?

Yes. If Rainbow is a 'proud' Black woman as she always declares she supposedly is, then those comments wouldn't bother her. But when one craves nothing more than to be white, well...

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Was Bow making those "jokes" because Ruby was "darkskinned?"  Or because she had had enough of being taunted and verbally abused in her own house for years?

So suddenly context matters? Ok.

9 minutes ago, NUguy514 said:

but there will be no convincing people who are determined to make Bow the bad guy/gal in every single situation

Apparently there will be no convincing people who are determined to make Andre & Ruby the bad guy/girl in every single situation.

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27 minutes ago, Dee said:

It was about Rainbow & Junior latching onto any issue to martyr themselves about the extremely inconsequential.

Junior never explained how the whole family is "colorist," beyond the fact that they find him to be a giant dork.

But who needs logic when petty grievances are all that matters.

She has been extremely dismissive of their cultural touchstones and experiences with blackness.  So if Rainbow's complexion counts as her 'biracial heritage' than Earl/Ruby/Andre's life experiences count as their 'dark skinned heritage.'

I agree that the show has never presented Junior's skin tone as an issue for anyone, not even Dre. Junior's got no leg to stand on there.

I also agree that Bow does get annoyed sometimes when Dre and Earl talk of some of their experiences, but not because she doesn't think they are legitimate, just that she thinks their aggressive and narrow-minded stance is not conducive to actually solving the problems. Also want to point out that D'Alicia has insulted Dre and been very critical of him, which is not acceptable, although she doesn't live with them so at least Dre doesn't have to hear about it all the freaking time.

26 minutes ago, Dee said:

Yes. If Rainbow is a 'proud' Black woman as she always declares she supposedly is, then those comments wouldn't bother her. But when one craves nothing more than to be white, well...

So suddenly context matters? Ok.

Apparently there will be no convincing people who are determined to make Andre & Ruby the bad guy/girl in every single situation.

When has Rainbow done or said anything that leads you to believe she craves nothing more than to be white? My mind is open, please provide examples.

I don't see Dre as the bad guy in every situation, and I often agree with him or at least see his point. Ruby is hilarious and obviously loves her family, and deep down she probably has some real affection for Bow - but no one can deny that she's a pill.

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45 minutes ago, Dee said:

Yes. If Rainbow is a 'proud' Black woman as she always declares she supposedly is, then those comments wouldn't bother her. But when one craves nothing more than to be white, well...

Marrying into an unquestionably Black family, with the likelihood that your kids will all be perceived as Black, seems like a strange way to satisfy a craving to be white,  And I know this is a fraught topic, but Bow usually wears her hair in beautiful braids, complex cornrows, and occasionally fully picked out (not suitable for surgery, so not as often) and huge hanging earrings and hoops.  She's never adopted, to my memory, a so-called "white" hairstyle.  I just don't read that as the customary hair and jewelry choices of a Black woman who "craves nothing more than to be white."   

10 minutes ago, Gothish520 said:

I agree that the show has never presented Junior's skin tone as an issue for anyone, not even Dre. Junior's got no leg to stand on there.

I also agree that Bow does get annoyed sometimes when Dre and Earl talk of some of their experiences, but not because she doesn't think they are legitimate, just that she thinks their aggressive and narrow-minded stance is not conducive to actually solving the problems. Also want to point out that D'Alicia has insulted Dre and been very critical of him, which is not acceptable, although she doesn't live with them so at least Dre doesn't have to hear about it all the freaking time.

I agree with both of these. D'Alicia has been portrayed as new-agey and dismissive of Dre and Ruby, and that's not nice, but it is in discrete moments of time, not all the time!

Edited by ItCouldBeWorse
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25 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

but it is in discrete moments of time, not all the time!

It's all the time. Whenever D'Alicia is around Andre, she is just as nasty and cruel to Andre as Ruby supposedly is to Rainbow yet Rainbow never checks her mother about her behavior.

And when Earl acts or says similar things to Rainbow and/or Junior that Ruby and/or Andre does, it's treated as perfectly acceptable.

Colorism didn't matter to Rainbow, which was why it was so easy for her to disregard and speak over Diane for the majority of the episode. She's often agreed that Junior is a creepy nerd, more often than not behind his back, does that make her a colorist too?

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2 hours ago, Dee said:

Andre & Rainbow communicated in their current manner long before Ruby ever appeared.

"Before Ruby appeared onscreen", you mean.  There is no freaking way that Andre and Bow communicated before Ruby appeared in his life. (like from birth, ya know..).

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5 hours ago, Dee said:
6 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

but it is in discrete moments of time, not all the time!

 

It's all the time. Whenever D'Alicia is around Andre, she is just as nasty and cruel to Andre as Ruby supposedly is to Rainbow yet Rainbow never checks her mother about her behavior.

I meant that D'Alicia isn't around Dre all the time or even most of the time.  She was around very rarely, partially because Dre didn't like Bow's parents much. Bow didn't have the opportunity to avoid Ruby.  And assuming that D'Alicia was as nasty and cruel to Andre as Ruby "supposedly" was to Bow, it would have been nice for Bow to stand up for her husband even though Dre never stood up for her.

Edited by ItCouldBeWorse
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Interrupting your daughter's wedding to suggest she marry someone else isn't cruel?

12 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

She was around very rarely, partially because Dre didn't like Bow's parents much. .

Andre actually liked Paul quite a bit.

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29 minutes ago, Dee said:

Interrupting your daughter's wedding to suggest she marry someone else isn't cruel?

41 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

She was around very rarely, partially because Dre didn't like Bow's parents much. .

Andre actually liked Paul quite a bit.

I'll agree with you on the first.  I thought I remembered Dre being bothered by Bow's "white father", but maybe it was Ruby or Earl.  I could be wrong.

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Dre said Paul was the only white man he ever loved.

He also described Junior's athletic ineptitude as the Caucasian Curse, inherited from Paul.

[D']Alicia's pretty awful, but she's hardly ever there.

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Dre and Bow struggle with the changing times of identity politics and gender neutrality. Diane auditions for the school play and scores the male lead part, but her crush starts spending time with another girl. Meanwhile, Junior's Valentine's Day date goes awry after Dre and Pops have a talk with him about chivalry.

Airs February 12, 2019.

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Just now, Jeopardy15 said:

Is this a “Cousin Oliver” situation? Is she a permanent cast member now? Did they need another kid? Why???????????

I came here to write the same exact thing.

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Hammering your point home repeatedly will not change anyone's mind.  And snarking each other doesn't fly here ever.  Move. On.

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17 minutes ago, Jeopardy15 said:

Is this a “Cousin Oliver” situation? Is she a permanent cast member now? Did they need another kid? Why???????????

More of a Cousin Pam situation. Now that Denise/Zoey is away at college

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Was Junior's leather jacket and sitting backwards in a chair thing supposed to be a homage to Michelle Pfeiffer in Dangerous Minds? Because heh.

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1 hour ago, Luciano said:

Was Junior's leather jacket and sitting backwards in a chair thing supposed to be a homage to Michelle Pfeiffer in Dangerous Minds? Because heh.

I believe so. He also sang "Gangsta's Paradise."

It was nice to see Dre's intern again.

I found myself laughing at the 8 credit score, Bow Telphy, and pretty much everything Pops said.

I wish Junior would "find himself" already. Bow can't even root for him anymore. 

Glad to hear that Dre knows that he is not a good person. 

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10 hours ago, docmatt said:

More of a Cousin Pam situation. Now that Denise/Zoey is away at college

Yeah, and they still continue to use Baby D when they "need to acknowledge" him. I think instead of trying to keep throwing in more characters because "we don't have this actor around anymore" why not focus on the ONES they STILL have! Junior is still a mess and just because you have the other characters basically saying: "you are wasting your time and doing nothing." How about finding a solution for them? Not throw in: "Well, you can't force them or they will never do it." No, Junior hasn't done ANYTHING but be told by everyone else he is doing NOTHING. He isn't having a 'gap year' he has no direction, not even going there. The writers don't know what to do with Junior and now the actor is just getting a paycheck and instead of trying to have Junior start: "a business" work with Dre as an intern or even volunteering at the hospital or something. They just have him complaining how his parents are sell outs or making him dumber than Jack. Plus, they it's: "Well, we don't know what to do with with Junior, let's bring in a new character because it's more fun to write and less of a challenge." Yeah, you know what that leads to? Over budget and cancellations. 

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I could NOT figure out who Kyra was at first...I knew I recognized her, but I kept thinking 'is she a Smollet?'....but no, she's Hush Puppy! I thought she did a good job, and tho I don't think they need more kids, I like her and am fine with her staying awhile.

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I'm with those who don't see the point of this (although I did like Cousin Pam, Charmaine, and Lance). They need to give Junior some shit to do rather than shoehorn in a new character.

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Quvenzhané Wallis has really grown up. I almost didn't recognize her. She's a lovely young woman.

I didn't get Bow saying they were going to put Earl's nuts in the popcorn. Who would want to eat that, even metaphorically?

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*Sigh* Isn't the baby enough of a blatant Cousin Oliver? Do we need another one, one that actually talks and does stuff? Are we really going full Cousin Oliver in this the year of our lord, 2019? Arent we past these narrative devices by now? I mean, the actress and character are perfectly fine, but cant we focus on the dozen or so characters we actually have? Maybe get Junior closer to getting his shit together?!

"I am a grown ass man, you cant tell me to go to bed. But I’m tired, so I’m going to bed anyway..." Any episode with Pops automatically becomes better. Any episode! 

I was also happy to see Dre’s intern again, and his 8 credit score. This episode really had a lot of good lines and jokes, but the main plot was just...why?

Edited by tennisgurl
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20 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I meant that D'Alicia isn't around Dre all the time or even most of the time. 

Just for reference:

In 5 seasons, D'Alicia has been in 9 episodes. Ruby has been in 89.  Draw your own conclusions.

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10 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

I didn't get Bow saying they were going to put Earl's nuts in the popcorn. Who would want to eat that, even metaphorically?

I believe she said "Raisinets".

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On 1/23/2019 at 2:43 PM, Dee said:

Junior is a judgmental flake.

Yet if someone started sharpening a pencil and telling him he was a nobody, he run to his room and hide under his bed and then say: "I'm having a GAP year from the family."

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Junior is a judgmental flake.

He was cute with Devonte in his lap, though. 

Seriously, why isn't he the manny? He'd be earning his keep, learning about adult responsibility, and discovering that even loving guardians make mistakes.

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I get that they needed to have a reason for Junior not being away at college but couldn’t he have just chosen a nearby college and then forgotten to send his housing forms for the dorms? That way, he could be in school, have more potential storylines but still be at home to interact with everyone else. This show was so great the first season and it’s been downhill ever since. I love Bow and cannot understand how she ended up with Dre. It’s obvious he loves his family but he spends too much time being a man child.

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I really enjoyed this episode. Do they need another person in this house? No, but Zoe isn't on much anymore so I do see that they may have wanted to split the older child storylines away from being just Junior. Had no idea that was Quvenzhane Wallis, she has really grown up and yet I'm guessing still just a teenager since she was so young when she first broke out.

This episode had a ton of lines that were just killing me. There was almost nothing out of Diane's mouth during the entire first scene that wasn't golden.

Diane checking out Kyra's Instagram: "Be your own boyfriend. Something happened."

Dre: "Forget love, she needs stuff. Have you seen her shoe game?" Bo with the, I'm sure she's upset about her mother being in jail not about her shoes. "Well at least her mother has a release date, no telling how long she's not going to be fresh."

June Bug: "You okay, cuz? Looking like you living that stressed out life. You need to be living that Herbalife."


 

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59 minutes ago, stillhere1900 said:

Where is the oldest daughter ?

College and on on the Free Form Spin off: Grown-ish in its second season. Why they couldn't just ship Junior off there since they have NO IDEA what to do with him, came down to a budget issue.

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I will allow Ka'liver to stay if they keep her with the same sweet but under disciplined spirit. I'm not here for the "smart ass disrespectful 4 reading levels behind her peers criminal girl from the hood" trope. There are young girls and boys out there in the care of relatives rising about their circumstances in a stable environment. If that is where they are going then welcome.  I also thought Stuntz was adorable. 

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On 1/23/2019 at 9:35 AM, Joimiaroxeu said:

Quvenzhané Wallis has really grown up. I almost didn't recognize her. She's a lovely young woman.

That was Annie???  Wow!  She really has grown to be a very beuatiful young woman.

On 1/27/2019 at 5:52 AM, JasmineFlower said:

Had no idea that was Quvenzhane Wallis, she has really grown up and yet I'm guessing still just a teenager since she was so young when she first broke out.

She's 15 now.

On 1/28/2019 at 9:56 AM, Boofish said:

I also thought Stuntz was adorable. 

Stuntz is welcome back any time.  I'd love to see her interact more with Pops, since I think they get each other.

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On 10/31/2018 at 10:54 AM, luckyroll3 said:

I also loved the call back to the always dangerous, "You up?" texts from Grownish.  Junior out here growing into himself, with no job, scoring all the girls.  Honestly, I had to google his age cause let's just say he was looking a little too good as Kilmonger......it made me feel dirty so I needed to confirm he was indeed legal.

So glad it wasn't just me...he had me feeling things in that Kilmonger costume-slash-hopefully what he'll wear every episode forever...

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I just started watching Black fish on hulu and I'm very confused on the timing as to when Ruby actually moved in with the Johnson family? Can I get some clarification please?

Thank you ya'll!

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