S04.E14: I'm Finding My Bliss

[dubbel zout]

Rebecca (Rachel Bloom) tries out for the local community theater, while Paula (Donna Lynne Champlin) is courted by various law firms. 

Edited March 1, 2019 by dubbel zout
added description

[dubbel zout]

It's so disconcerting to see Mindy St. Clair with Darryl. Hee.

[whiporee]

I really wish this show would learn how to end an episode. 

Rebecca's going to become Rachel in the end. Not a bad way for things to wrap up. 

[MrsR]

Sigh. I really hope this show pulls itself out it's funk.

[Spartan Girl]

Cheri Oteri! It's been a while!

Yeah I wasn't feeling this episode, but Rebecca has a point about how sexist some of the older musicals can be. Remember "I Can't Say No" from Oklahoma? 

[cailinoBAC]

Or, well, I do love the music from Carousel and so much about it, but... 'He can hit you and it feels like a kiss' or something along those lines...

[angora]

I liked that the theatre-isn't-the-key-to-Rebecca's-happiness-after-all storyline didn't have anything to do with not getting a big enough part - given Rebecca's skill level, a comedic song where she could get by mostly on force of personality was a good choice by the director - but instead about her looking deeper at songs she's loved her whole life and realizing they're not just old-timey harmless fun.  I get her desire to "tweak" the song while also getting that she obviously can't do that.  I wish the resolution had been her singing the original lyrics, but in such a way that showed the character was mocking them/didn't believe what she was singing - it still could've gotten her fired but without going to the lengths of altering the lyrics.  Although, I suppose it might've been a stretch for Rebecca to carry that off with her acting.

Nice touch that, while Rebecca of course noted all the rampant sexism in the song, Josh was the one who picked up on the racism of the show's title.  Getting the old playbill for her to sign was sweet of him, and I liked that he only pretended for a second that he'd saved it before admitting that he actually bought it on eBay.

I've been listening to the season 1 soundtrack lately, so I was primed for a reprise of "What'll It Be?" as soon as Heather and Greg started talking about his bitterness about West Covina, but man.  That did NOT work for me.  I like Skyler fine and he's a good singer, but listening to him sing that song after Santino broke what was left of my ability to suspend disbelief that these two are playing the same person.

Even though she was better than Rebecca, I liked that Valencia also didn't sound as good as she does in the fantasy songs - Gabrielle pulled that off well, with her voice going a little thin whenever she started reaching for the high notes.  I'd hoped that maybe the story would end with her realizing SHE could be the one to propose to Beth, but I guess that plot is still up in the air.

So it looks like we're keeping all three guys in the running, with Rebecca aware of both Nathaniel and Greg's continuing feelings and Josh making disappointed faces in the background.  Bringing Greg back in so quickly after "eliminating" him makes me lean towards Rebecca choosing none of them as the most likely option, but I don't know.  All I know is that I'm getting tired of it.

[whiporee]

I don't know why we'd need to see Greg anymore after tonight. His arc is closed. Same thing with Paula and Darryl -- Darryl's found happy with Mindy St. Clair, and Paula's the lawyers she always wanted to be, complete with desirabilty and a big paycheck. With only three (or four) episodes left, there's nowhere to go with any of those stories -- anything else is going to be superfluous. 

So that leaves us just the love square and Valencia, but if I'm being honest, Valencia's pretty much done, too. She's stated what she wants and now it's just a matter of whether she gets it. And does anyone really believe that with so few episodes left, that the square is going to come to any conclusion beyond Rebecca needs to be by herself? Josh, Nathaniel and Greg are all shown a decent, caring guys whom Rebecca cares deeply for but isn't madly in love with. And they've all had their chance to get that way with her and haven't. For the show to choose any of them would make no sense at this point, so I'm reasonably certain we'll have three episodes of hemming and hawing, but at the end of the day we'll end up no different from where we are now, except maybe Rebecca moves back to New York. 

Tonight actually could have been the series finale -- didn't they get extra episodes they weren't expecting -- because it did show Rebecca understanding her biggest fantasy was just that. As I said above, I like the idea of Rebecca becoming Rachel and rewriting some of these tropes that she's indulged in, maybe writing her own show called Crazy Ex-Girlfriend as she comes to grips with where she's been (I hope not. Episodes already did that, but I could see it happening).  

I missed the story-led songs tonight. I'm sure it was fun to write old-school musical nonsense and sexist stuff, but it didn't bring a lot to the story (and they were all too far over the top to really be biting satire. Really more of a cavalcade of strawmen being pushed out on stage). I'm curious where we end up after all this, but I do think the story is fundamentally complete. 

[dungeonwriter]

I felt a little less sympathy with Rebecca. 

I think one can perform "La donna è mobile" from Rigoletto without it being problematic.

Things don't age well. Sometimes, you ditch it, sometimes you accept it.

Perhaps the problem was it was a bit too on the nose, no one could hear those lyrics without wincing, it felt like satire. If Michelle Obama did it on Glee...are we saying Rebecca is more woke than the former First Lady, who chose that song?  

"I'm just a Girl who can't say No" is funny and catchy, and you have to think about it to see the icky factor. 

A little more subtle problematic would have made me more sympathetic, about giving bad messages. 

[txhorns79]

You can tell the show is reaching for storylines to fill the time they have when so much of this episode is given over to Valencia's relationship with Beth.  I'm not sure Beth has been given a last name, much less a personality.  I have no idea why Valencia would suddenly be so eager to marry her, except to give the character some closure as the show winds down.

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, dungeonwriter said:

Perhaps the problem was it was a bit too on the nose, no one could hear those lyrics without wincing, it felt like satire.

That was my problem with it. It would have had to be a lot more subtle to have been the kind of song Rebecca had grown up singing, had heard performed so many times by so many people, and was so familiar with, only to realize how problematic it was once she had to really get into character to perform it herself. This song was so awful that it was stunningly awful the first time you heard the first line.

I spent most of the episode trying to figure out who they were spoofing, who this songwriter who's so famous in their universe might have been based on. I think Rebecca's song might have been a weird cross between "I'm Just a Girl Who Can't Say No" from Oklahoma and maybe "Adeleide's Lament" from Guys and Dolls (with all the talk about what happens to a woman who isn't married). I couldn't think of what Valencia's song was supposed to be a take on.

While there are certainly a lot of shows that have problematic elements, it doesn't seem to me like too many of the classic songs that have stood the test of time, the kind that would have been the sort of things that were a big part of Rebecca's life as she grew up loving musical theater, would have been the problematic ones. The really awful musicals have either fallen by the wayside with their good songs living on as part of the standards canon and the rest forgotten or have been revised and updated. Rebecca's about 30, right? So she's of an age to have grown up when shows like Phantom and Les Mis would be the "classics," and the older musicals from the 40s, 50s, and 60s that are still remembered had all been updated. There were the "new" Gershwin musicals in the 90s that put the old songs into something of the old plot, but rearranged and "fixed," there was the removing of the really racist stuff from shows like Show Boat, Peter Pan, South Pacific, The King and I, etc. Carousel remains problematic with the domestic abuse (I think some of the lines in Valencia's song might have been alluding to that), and I don't know that they've found a solution to make it more palatable to modern audiences while retaining the story. They've apparently done some updating to a new version of Kiss Me, Kate. I don't see someone Rebecca's age as having grown up obsessed with the icky old stuff that she only now realizes is horrible.

It's more likely that she would have been familiar with a revised version of the song and then was shocked to see the original lyrics. Instead, it's like she's losing all faith in all musical theater because she took a good look at the work of one rather crappy songwriter whose songs were obviously bad and yet she'd somehow never noticed, but there really is so much good stuff out there that's not problematic, no matter what kind of microscope you put it under. There's still more than enough to provide a soundtrack for life when you exclude the icky stuff.

[BonnieD]

couple of things. ONE. It had to be community theater, which means no pay so how could anyone be "fired"? Dumb! They should have had the director simply say, I'm cutting you from the play, effective immediately." Clearly nobody was getting paid to do this gig.

and this: 

Quote

Valencia's pretty much done, too. She's stated what she wants and now it's just a matter of whether she gets it. 

Why the holy hell does she expect a proposal? Either party could be the one to propose. SHE should do it herself, ask her GF to marry her! In this day and age nobody should be expecting anybody to be the party who must propose. Old fashioned nonsense IMO. Especially in hetero relationships where the days of "you must ask for my daughter's hand in marriage" should long since be over. Ladies, stop waiting to be approached like you're frickin' rapunzel in a tower. And the bullshit about the bride's parents being the ones to pay for everything as if it were some sort of dowry, should be finished too. 

ETA. I think the song was much more based on Adelaide's Lament from Guys and Dolls as she continually puts up with her fiance's neglect and bemoans her lack of marital status. Honestly, I think Ado Annie's song "Cain't Say No" shows a sexually healthy young woman who enjoys fooling around. Taken verse by verse, she doesn't seem to want to put the brakes on. The dated part is that she won't be respected if she follows her natural inclinations and does what she wants.

Edited March 16, 2019 by BonnieD

[DianeDobbler]

I think Rebecca will end up with Josh but I also think they have played the rom com arc of the concluding episodes completely wrong. I mean an entire Nathaniel episode where he had to quite agonizingly work through losing Rebecca for good, accepting it, and moving on, only he didn't move on and the only reason he accepted it was she was with someone else and he's not going to chase her but he WILL take every chance proferred and ... Good CHRIST. What was the point of giving the straight white dude an episode all about him then if it weren't to truly move him on from a relationship that only existed the way he remembers it in his memory and never actually played out that way in reality?

There's something about Skylar Astin where I know Greg isn't supposed to be over her either but I sort of have faith that he is or will be and will actually date someone else next time the opportunity comes along. I was very very happy for him that he started out kind of protecting himself (a classic Greg thing) but not trying too hard with the restaurant, that Chris sort of opened his eyes a little bit, and just the way he was when people started coming through the door. The restaurant is adorable and I truly believe Greg would be happy there because he seems more comfortable now in his own skin, and really appreciative of doing something well and having feedback that others appreciate it. Really what touched me was his expectations were minimal and how he reacted when people liked it, they really really liked it.

Paula looked killer in this episode with her hair, especially, absolutely gleaming. Maybe her personal arc is done but she's still integral cast member and it's ok for her still to be around.

What is Rebecca's end game (and it IS going to be with one of those three guys even if I'm wrong about the one I think it is) is wearing on me. I was looking forward to it when Aline Brosh McKenna previewed it. I thought it would be fun. But it's not fun, not creative, they are doing absolutely nothing to show us stuff instead of telling us stuff over and over, and I'm just done with that.

They didn't tell us why Valencia wanted to be proposed to but filling in the subtext on my own, I think her stated reason about friends being married and all that is just her cover up. She wants to be and to feel chosen, she spent years with Josh without him popping the question despite her practically handing him a script. At least she told Beth what she wanted even though I suspect her reason aren't her real reasons.

Whatever Rebecca's romantic end game, I think her creative end game will be writing and producing her own shows or sketches in musical form, performing in them with her friends, and uploading them on youtube where they become incredibly popular. That will be a shout out to Bloom's own trajectory and also, IMO, make sense for Rebecca's writing talents, her energy, her schedule (she still owns Rebetzals) and her budget. I really hope CXG doesn't continue to try and show us Rebecca has an unlimited bank account.

Edited March 17, 2019 by DianeDobbler

[willowk]

Have to say I miss the fantasy songs, and although its good Rebecca realizes life is not a musical, do wish they had more music in the show than they had last night. For some reason (maybe because of the lack of songs) I was thinking throughout the episode "Why are all three of these guys so hung up on her?" Nathaniel said how many times Rebecca had broken up with him, Josh of course she stalked, and Greg, well we found out a couple of weeks ago that they have no interests in common.  Agree with everyone who's posted about Valencia, I didn't get why she needs to be the one proposed to. I wish that scene had had her propose to Beth, instead of giving her the ultimatium "propose to me or else". I think its fine that she wants to be married, and have the wedding etc. I missed Hector tonight, although did like Heather helping Greg set up the restaurant. Was I the only one wondering if there would really be that much of a salary difference between the lawyers where Paula is and where she was interviewing? Are Darryl and Nathaniel paying so much less than other firms? Anyway, I love the cast but the show has lost its zip. But I'm in to the end. Hope there are some good moments ahead.

[Yeah No]

I know it probably won't happen, but I still hope Rebecca ends up with Nathaniel.  What he did for her in this episode was truly touching.  I literally said, "Game over" after he did that.  Josh is still dense and not on Rebecca's level and Greg's story is being wrapped up already.  The only one really making any progress now is Nathaniel.  I still wonder if they aren't going to leave Rebecca single, but even if they do that they only have a few episodes left to make that happen without it feeling anticlimactic.  I worry that because we're not seeing any definite direction the show will just end with no satisfying resolution for Rebecca.  A lot of the others' lives will be neatly tied up except hers.  And if that's the case I admit I'd feel a little unsatisfied.

[KittenPokerCheater]

1 hour ago, Yeah No said:

What he did for her in this episode was truly touching.  I literally said, "Game over" after he did that. 

I thought the same thing. If it were up to me, she would end up with Nathanial.  He has grown and changed in deeper ways that I don't think the other two have.

But she will probably pull a Kelly Taylor and "I choose me."  Which, meh.  

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I get that Valencia was disappointed because she thought Beth was going to propose, but if she wants to marry Beth, why doesn't she just propose herself instead of waiting for Beth to do it or giving Beth an ultimatum?

I was totally on board with Rebecca questioning the problematic lyrics of an older song. When you know a song that well for most of your life, you sometimes know the words and don't really listen to the lyrics. When a friend and I went to see Grease (the movie) at a singalong show a few years ago, we were happily singing along and then during Summer Nights, we got to the part where the guys asked Danny, "Did she put up a fight?" and we looked at each other like WTF?

The same problem exists in dance. Last year Mr. EB and I saw Fancy Free by Jerome Robbins and afterward we were like wow, that did not age well. Sexual harassment is so hilarious, right? We also saw Sleeping Beauty (the ballet) last year. It was the first time I'd seen it since I was in high school and Mr. EB's first time ever seeing it. In the second act, Aurora and her kingdom are already asleep. The Lilac Factory finds the prince and tells him that she has a quest for him. He says he's not interested. The Lilac Fairy then says, "But the sleeping princess is beautiful," and shows him a vision of Aurora. After seeing that she is beautiful, the prince is like, "Okay, I'm on board now! Where is this hot girl who needs my help?" It's a good thing she wasn't ugly, right?

But I liked that it led to Rebecca rewriting the lyrics (even though it is musical theater blasphemy to do that) and getting fired. I don't enjoy watching her her dreams crushed, but at the same time I think it's realistic for her to learn that performing isn't the answer. Sometimes it takes more than one try to figure out what it is that you really want to do and are capable of doing.

I loved that Josh hunted down their old program from Pirates of Penzance. For the record, I wouldn't have to buy any of my old programs from ebay because I have them all in a box at my parents' house [/old school hoarder].

I also liked that Nathaniel could see how much it meant to Rebecca to have her new lyrics performed so he took the risk for her (of course, it was a lot easier for him since his heart and soul aren't invested in musical theater being his dream, but still).

I'm fine with Paula leaving the firm. As she told Darryl, they are real friends, not just work friends, so they will still see each other even if they aren't working at the same place anymore. Realistically, most people don't stay at the same job for their entire career anymore so it seems natural that she's leaving at this point.

Edited March 17, 2019 by ElectricBoogaloo

[dubbel zout]

11 hours ago, willowk said:

Was I the only one wondering if there would really be that much of a salary difference between the lawyers where Paula is and where she was interviewing? Are Darryl and Nathaniel paying so much less than other firms?

I wondered this, too, and then handwaved it as Paula was interviewing at some of the larger, more corporate firms in the area, and that being such a high achiever gave her an edge. Darryl was obviously thinking Paula would stick around just because she was already there and comfortable, so he didn't even think about making a formal offer to her. 

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

But I liked that it led to Rebecca rewriting the lyrics (even though it is musical theater blasphemy to do that) and getting fired. I don't enjoy watching her her dreams crushed, but at the same time I think it's realistic for her to learn that performing isn't the answer. Sometimes it takes more than one try to figure out what it is that you really want to do and are capable of doing.

Musical theater seems the right church for Rebecca, but performance is the wrong pew. I don't mind her becoming Rachel, as it were.

[Empress1]

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I get that Valencia was disappointed because she thought Beth was going to propose, but if she wants to marry Beth, why doesn't she just propose herself instead of waiting for Beth to do it or giving Beth an ultimatum?

I kept thinking the same thing. If Valencia wants to get married, she should propose. And have they even talked about marriage? I think it's more rare these days for people to propose totally out of the blue, at least among people I know - usually there's some sort of conversation about where the relationship is going. Beth seemed totally blindsided by the idea.

40 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I wondered this, too, and then handwaved it as Paula was interviewing at some of the larger, more corporate firms in the area, and that being such a high achiever gave her an edge. Darryl was obviously thinking Paula would stick around just because she was already there and comfortable, so he didn't even think about making a formal offer to her. 

I assumed Paula was interviewing at big corporate LA firms, which would indeed pay a lot more than a small firm in West Covina. Starting BigLaw salaries are around $180K. (She'll have way, way less free time though.) And damn right she should go get paid what she's worth. Get that money, Paula!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

5 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

And have they even talked about marriage? I think it's more rare these days for people to propose totally out of the blue, at least among people I know - usually there's some sort of conversation about where the relationship is going. Beth seemed totally blindsided by the idea.

Based on the conversations that they had in this episode, I don't think they have discussed getting married. Beth started their first conversation by saying that some people might think they were moving really fast by buying a condo together while Valencia was expecting a marriage proposal. To me, that says they haven't had a serious discussion about getting married to each other because they were clearly on different pages.

Later when Valencia gave her the proposal ultimatum, Beth seemed blindsided, as you said, which again made me think that they haven't talked about getting married in the near future. I'm guessing that any wedding talks they have had were theoretical and tangential to the events they've done ("Ugh, I would never have geraniums as centerpieces at my wedding!") but nothing concrete like "we should definitely be married within the next year."

While part of me is glad that Valencia stopped dancing around the issue and expecting Beth to read her mind (and really, if you want to marry this person, you should be able to communicate honestly and openly about what you want), I am not a fan of the proposal ultimatum. How about having the discussion that should have preceded an ultimatum like that which includes topics like do you want to get married (just in general), do you want to get married to me, how far in the future do you want to get married, etc (in addition to the basic things you should discuss beforehand like if you want to have kids, where you want to settle down, your finances, etc)?

What made me sad is that one of the first reasons Valencia listed for wanting to get married is that all of her other friends are married. Seriously? And they just moved to New York recently so are all their friends there married too? Even if they are, that's no reason to get married. Other people's relationships are not your relationships, and other people's relationships should not be the motivation for anything you do in life.

How long have they been dating? About a year?

[Empress1]

16 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

While part of me is glad that Valencia stopped dancing around the issue and expecting Beth to read her mind (and really, if you want to marry this person, you should be able to communicate honestly and openly about what you want), I am not a fan of the proposal ultimatum. How about having the discussion that should have preceded an ultimatum like that which includes topics like do you want to get married (just in general), do you want to get married to me, how far in the future do you want to get married, etc (in addition to the basic things you should discuss beforehand like if you want to have kids, where you want to settle down, your finances, etc)?

Yeah, I feel like they skipped a step. I do believe in saying "I want X within [time frame]. Are we on the same page about that?" because if you're not on the same page, better to learn that sooner rather than later. I have an acquaintance who was with a man for seven years and finally broke up with him when she finally got that he didn't want to marry her (she started talking marriage two years in and they were both over 30 when they met, so it wasn't like she was talking marriage at 17), and she said she regrets not ending it sooner. But it doesn't seem to me that Beth and Valencia had that conversation, and I also don't get a vibe that Valencia wants to marry BETH as much as she wants to be married because it aligns with the timeline she's set for herself (which is not that unusual, especially for women who want kids). If the show is trying to paint Beth as The One for Valencia they should have shown us, not told us.

[Yeah No]

4 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I get that Valencia was disappointed because she thought Beth was going to propose, but if she wants to marry Beth, why doesn't she just propose herself instead of waiting for Beth to do it or giving Beth an ultimatum?

I agree with the above that Valencia was waiting to be chosen as a reaction to her disappointing romantic history, but I also wonder if she isn't expecting Beth to take on a more traditionally "male" role in the relationship in general.  It almost felt like she thought it was Beth's role to be the one to propose.  The way Valencia is acting is reminiscent of women of an earlier generation in relationships with men.

[Yeah No]

12 hours ago, KittenPokerCheater said:

I thought the same thing. If it were up to me, she would end up with Nathanial.  He has grown and changed in deeper ways that I don't think the other two have.

But she will probably pull a Kelly Taylor and "I choose me."  Which, meh.  

I agree, and I've said that in earlier episode threads.  I think he is the one that has shown himself to be the most "relationship ready".  He also shares the most in common with her.  The show has done its best to make Josh look like a "himbo" and Greg like a bad match in terms of commonality, so Nathaniel's the one that's left.  I'm wondering if the show will reunite them but not take it farther than dating and taking things slow, so we will know which direction they're headed in but it won't go all the way up to marriage.  If the show ends on that note I will be happy, and happy for them too!

[bijoux]

I’m with everyone that if Valencia wants to get married, being the one to propose is a logical step. And I hope Beth calls her out on that. I do think there is more than a smidge of the bolded in it as well. Valencia wants to be the pretty princess. There’s nothing wrong with that, but maybe Beth doesn’t want to be the pirate king. But I actually do expect this to play out by deconstructing Valencia’s expectations.

And this is what Rebecca has been doing this season, including rejecting the song. On some level, the choice must have chafed. The director said they got the songs that fit their characters or how she saw them. Daniel the prince, Valencia the helpless princess, Tim the irrelevant extra, and Rebecca the broad who’s desperate for a man, but doesn’t think she deserves them. Sadly, Rebecca actually has been that, so yes, she needs to tear that song and script apart.

1 hour ago, Yeah No said:

I agree with the above that Valencia was waiting to be chosen as a reaction to her disappointing romantic history, but I also wonder if she isn't expecting Beth to take on a more traditionally "male" role in the relationship in general.  It almost felt like she thought it was Beth's role to be the one to propose.  The way Valencia is acting is reminiscent of women of an earlier generation in relationships with men.

I wish the director was slower on her feet getting to Daniel and we got to see more of his performance. I honestly can’t believe how much I like him now. He’s just so quietly and consistently solid. Never would have guessed the douchebag had it in him when he first showed up.

[Eolivet]

20 hours ago, DianeDobbler said:

I think Rebecca will end up with Josh

Interesting, because after tonight, I was almost certain he's the one she won't end up with. Josh around Rebecca is reminding me of Rebecca around Josh in season 1 (does crazy-thoughtful thing, other person is all "oh, isn't that nice" and it makes the first person feel good). In order for me to root for Josh, I have to sympathize with him that Rebecca doesn't feel the same way about him, and right now, I don't. He just sort of looks pathetic to me.

I thought the most telling part about last night's episode was the very last scene. Greg is stable now, and healthy with a good job, he's still got feelings for Rebecca and he makes absolute sense on paper. He's the "husband" she should absolutely "lasso" -- he's truly a catch. But he's not the one she almost kissed.

Which brings me to Nathaniel, and the fact that he's the only one where we've been shown his perspective, how he's really, really trying not to move on from Rebecca (and doing a bad job of it). She's almost hooked up with him twice now.

They keep emphasizing that Rebecca has continually rejected Nathaniel, which puts a bit of a damper on "oh, she suddenly chooses him," but maybe that's a trope the show wants to reverse. I'm not sure, and I'm fully prepared to have Rebecca pull a Kelly Taylor, but the out-sized focus on Nathaniel, as someone who keeps ending up in Rebecca's orbit in these last few episodes is giving me pause.

Sometimes, I think the show is just as obvious as we think, and Rebecca and Nathaniel have been awfully last-30-minutes-of-a-rom-com lately. But again. I could always be wrong.

[Eolivet]

Also, Valencia's song was absolutely "What's the Use of Wond'rin'" from Carousel.

There's actually a song from The Pajama Game that sounded like the "tick-tock goes the tick-tock clock" song ("Think of the Time I'll Save"), but that's so obscure, I wonder what the inspiration actually was.

I actually found Rebecca's song more like "All er Nothin" from Oklahoma (versus "I Can't Say No"). "All er Nothin" is Ado Annie getting scolded for her fun-loving ways by her future husband, as opposed to the unapologetic "I Can't Say No." "All er Nothin," sung with the mopey lack of self-esteem of Adelaide's Lament.

Since there were no princes in the classic musicals that I can remember, I can only assume Nathaniel's song would've had more of a super-sexist (but played completely straight) Into the Woods vibe.

Apple Man ... reminded me of "Be Like the Bluebird" from Anything Goes. Stupid, mid-Act II, just musing on a strange topic by a goofy character that's only tangentially related to the plot.

Also, Cherry Oteri was the perfect community theater director. This episode was amazing for this classic musical fan.

[Irlandesa]

24 minutes ago, Eolivet said:

I actually found Rebecca's song more like "All er Nothin" from Oklahoma (versus "I Can't Say No"). "All er Nothin" is Ado Annie getting scolded for her fun-loving ways by her future husband, as opposed to the unapologetic "I Can't Say No."

Will might have double standards in "All er Nothin" but that song ends with Ado Annie singing this:

So I ain't gonna fuss, ain't gonna frown
Have your fun, go out on the town,
Stay up late, and don't come home till three!
And go right off to sleep if you're sleepy.
There's no use waitin' up fer me!

She gets the last word and it's not exactly cowering.

As for Rebecca's three love interests, I'm going to try to not examine them too closely.  A good argument could be made for all three.  Nathan has improved but is still into performative goodness. It feels like every decent he does is preceded with a declaration of him being a good person now.  Josh is still a doofus but is actually largely a good person.  Greg was the person she chose.  While there was some indication of different interests, that's not why they broke up.  They broke up because Rebecca felt she needed to focus on her mental health. 

But I can't believe we're going to spend the next three episodes focused on her love life. 

As for the pay at Darryl's firm, I think it has always been on the lower end.  It was mentioned when Rebecca landed there after moving from NY.

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, Eolivet said:

Since there were no princes in the classic musicals that I can remember, I can only assume Nathaniel's song would've had more of a super-sexist (but played completely straight) Into the Woods vibe.

There's Once Upon a Mattress and the R&H Cinderella. You could possibly stretch and go for Camelot, though there's just a king and knights there (still, medieval-ish royalty). But Once Upon a Mattress might be a decent fit, though I don't know that I've seen it all the way through (I've mostly seen old footage of Carol Burnett in the original cast). It's comedic and old, so there's a good chance that there's something sexist about it. Just the concept of looking for a perfect, pure princess is ripe for some good old retro attitudes.

[Eeksquire]

Quote

I've been listening to the season 1 soundtrack lately, so I was primed for a reprise of "What'll It Be?" as soon as Heather and Greg started talking about his bitterness about West Covina, but man.  That did NOT work for me.  I like Skyler fine and he's a good singer, but listening to him sing that song after Santino broke what was left of my ability to suspend disbelief that these two are playing the same person.

I could not believe they went there.  I mean, I can, but talk about a disappointment.

As I predicted, I forgot that the show was on and just discovered it on my DVR tonight.  It was  ... fine? I guess? It was definitely not compelling enough that I watched closely though.  Definitely hit the laptop about ten minutes in and meandered around the internet while this was on in the background.

[FoundTime]

14 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

The Lilac Factory

Great auto-correct/band name. I guess "fairy" is too un-PC for the Devices of the World.

On topic, I have been lurking here quite a while; I think I came late-ish to this show but really enjoyed the first couple of seasons. Now I just can't wait for it to be over.

[willowk]

On 3/16/2019 at 8:18 PM, KittenPokerCheater said:

I thought the same thing. If it were up to me, she would end up with Nathanial.  He has grown and changed in deeper ways that I don't think the other two have.

But she will probably pull a Kelly Taylor and "I choose me."  Which, meh.  

One thing that makes me think she will end up with one of them (likely Nathaniel) is that she has been trying and failing at relationships. She went through that period where she was sure she couldn't be in a healthy relationship and her therapist encouraged her to believe she deserved love. I think if they end it with Rebecca alone it will fall short of her truly being healthy. And it seems they have been moving her towards health. But we'll have to see what Bloom has in store for Bunch.

[aradia22]

I'm going to put this one down as "fine." Filler-y but mostly fine. 

Issue 1 is just structure. I don't think the episode length could support so many plots outside of the main plot. To recap, we had Rebecca pursuing musical theater as plot A. Greg reopening Serrano's as plot B. Paula interviewing at other firms as plot C. Valencia wanting Beth to propose as plot D. Arguably a weak plot E of Tim's own feelings about the theater company and being passed over for Nathaniel which never got resolved. Arguably a plot F of Josh working the stage crew to be near Rebecca. The only plots that got decent development were A and B. The rest were afterthoughts. The characters barely had time to announce their thoughts and feelings, let alone give any depth to those storylines. Basically, it was the writing equivalent of the Apple Man song.

Side note: LOVED the Apple Man song. I liked things about the other songs in the episode but that was the one that made me laugh. Though, I have to point out, it's anachronistic to name a bunch of apples since those varieties surely didn't exist during the time the song in question was written given the style of the song.

Again, I'm mostly fine with what's going on. Greg made some progress. I don't really enjoy the 3 love interests hovering around Rebecca like this as we just spin our wheels until the last episode but I guess we made some progress on musical theater. The thing I really didn't buy is that someone like Rebecca would have a crisis of faith about her love of musicals based on this experience. Because someone who loves musicals the way she does... someone who has the feelings she has about Cats... that person's knowledge of musical theater wouldn't just consist of South Pacific and Eliot Elliot. She would know Sondheim and maybe even Jeanine Tesori and Jason Robert Brown, etc. (we haven't seen direct evidence of Rebecca knowing "modern" musicals beyond the general contemporary musical theater style the show defaults to when it's not copying something specific). So she would know that musicals have depth and they're not all just bad, problematic messaging.  

As I said, I wasn't really feeling any of the love interests this episode though to me, they're pushing Nathaniel the hardest. There was the way he was looking at her when she was excited over the song she was given. It was very "find someone who looks at you the way, etc." meme. And there was the big gesture of performing her version of the song. Hell, they dressed him as a fairytale prince. Maybe it's just how bland they all were this episode but now I'm feeling like we're going to get a Rebecca ends up alone ending. 

[aradia22]

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Yeah I wasn't feeling this episode, but Rebecca has a point about how sexist some of the older musicals can be. Remember "I Can't Say No" from Oklahoma? 

My recall isn't as good as it used to be but I actually think that's a better song than it's given credit for being. Ado Annie is basically like "I know what society says a 'good girl' should do but I like guys." It's a song that admits to female desire outside of wanting love or a husband. She just likes kissing... and stuff. And the show isn't too harsh to her. I don't know if Rebecca's song was referencing something particular. It reminded me more of a Mae West vibe (but those vaudeville songs usually had happy madams/saloon girls, not ones who wanted to get married) mixed with some kind of morality play (but you'd expect a more mournful song for that like the equivalent of "As Long As He Needs Me" from Oliver but written in the style of "Bill" from Showboat). 

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Or, well, I do love the music from Carousel and so much about it, but... 'He can hit you and it feels like a kiss' or something along those lines...

That felt a bit overblown. Having seen the recent revival (edited as it was), the line doesn't come off that badly. Valencia's song was more like "As Long As He Needs Me" from Oliver in the style of... Pirates of Penzance? I don't know. I honestly don't know Gilbert and Sullivan very well but I hear pirates and that's what I think.

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I liked that the theatre-isn't-the-key-to-Rebecca's-happiness-after-all storyline didn't have anything to do with not getting a big enough part - given Rebecca's skill level, a comedic song where she could get by mostly on force of personality was a good choice by the director - but instead about her looking deeper at songs she's loved her whole life and realizing they're not just old-timey harmless fun.  I get her desire to "tweak" the song while also getting that she obviously can't do that.  I wish the resolution had been her singing the original lyrics, but in such a way that showed the character was mocking them/didn't believe what she was singing - it still could've gotten her fired but without going to the lengths of altering the lyrics.

It's too late now, but you should write for this show. 😉

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I've been listening to the season 1 soundtrack lately, so I was primed for a reprise of "What'll It Be?" as soon as Heather and Greg started talking about his bitterness about West Covina, but man.  That did NOT work for me.  I like Skyler fine and he's a good singer, but listening to him sing that song after Santino broke what was left of my ability to suspend disbelief that these two are playing the same person.

I've been OK with him up until now but like the Springsteen song, this stood out. My issue was that more than ever, I felt like Skylar sounded like someone from Glee. Like, if he wasn't busy, they could have cast Darren Criss. And there's no way Santino as Greg could have been one of the kids on Glee even if he was age appropriate.

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Perhaps the problem was it was a bit too on the nose, no one could hear those lyrics without wincing, it felt like satire. [...]

A little more subtle problematic would have made me more sympathetic, about giving bad messages. 

I felt the same way. 

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That was my problem with it. It would have had to be a lot more subtle to have been the kind of song Rebecca had grown up singing, had heard performed so many times by so many people, and was so familiar with, only to realize how problematic it was once she had to really get into character to perform it herself. This song was so awful that it was stunningly awful the first time you heard the first line.

It kind of already happened with the speech (Nathaniel reciting it to her) but it would make sense for her to realize that Slumbered or "One Indescribable Instant" was problematic. Or maybe write another song from Slumbered that's a little more on the nose.

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The only one really making any progress now is Nathaniel.  I still wonder if they aren't going to leave Rebecca single, but even if they do that they only have a few episodes left to make that happen without it feeling anticlimactic.  I worry that because we're not seeing any definite direction the show will just end with no satisfying resolution for Rebecca.

I think this is my issue. If Rebecca ends up not choosing any of the 3 guys then the show has been wasting our time not building up to making that seem like a good decision. They're stringing the audience along with "which one will she pick" instead of giving us credit for guessing that maybe she'd be better off not in a relationship with any of them. At least at this point in her life. It's like they're so tied to keeping the mystery alive but that's not good writing because it comes from nothing but withholding information from the audience.

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There's Once Upon a Mattress and the R&H Cinderella. You could possibly stretch and go for Camelot, though there's just a king and knights there (still, medieval-ish royalty). But Once Upon a Mattress might be a decent fit, though I don't know that I've seen it all the way through (I've mostly seen old footage of Carol Burnett in the original cast). It's comedic and old, so there's a good chance that there's something sexist about it. Just the concept of looking for a perfect, pure princess is ripe for some good old retro attitudes.

Actually, no. Those musicals are relatively new. R&H's Cinderella was written for TV (AND THERE WAS NOTHING WRONG WITH IT, DOUGLAS CARTER BEANE) and OUAM is actually well aware of tropes and turning them on their head from the "shy" princess to the pregnant lady in waiting. Based on the other songs this episode, I'd expect something like a Disney prince song (specifically Snow White or Sleeping Beauty) but yeah, like Agony played straight. So very misogynistic/sexist or incredibly rape-y.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

18 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

The Lilac Factory finds the prince

3 hours ago, FoundTime said:

Great auto-correct/band name. I guess "fairy" is too un-PC for the Devices of the World.

Ha, that is definitely one of the funnier autocorrects I have gotten. Thanks, phone!

12 hours ago, bijoux said:

I wish the director was slower on her feet getting to Daniel and we got to see more of his performance. I honestly can’t believe how much I like him now. He’s just so quietly and consistently solid. Never would have guessed the douchebag had it in him when he first showed up.

I was hoping that Nathaniel would just walk in front of the curtain and keep singing!

Cheri Oteri was great as the director.

[Eolivet]

9 hours ago, aradia22 said:

It reminded me more of a Mae West vibe (but those vaudeville songs usually had happy madams/saloon girls, not ones who wanted to get married) mixed with some kind of morality play (but you'd expect a more mournful song for that like the equivalent of "As Long As He Needs Me" from Oliver but written in the style of "Bill" from Showboat).

I was also wondering about "Bill" for Valencia's song, but "As Long As He Needs Me" is spot-on for that one. Yikes, that song is disturbing (albeit gorgeous).

The more I think about it, Rebecca's song is more "tough-as-nails character laments that she's as desperate for love as anyone else." (the closest I can think of is "I Don't Know How to Love Him" from Jesus Chris Superstar or maybe Reno-with-no-self-esteem from Anything Goes), but "Etta-Mae" seems more Katisha from Gilbert & Sullivan's The Mikado -- the domineering spinster character whose love for the hero is played for comedy (and with the assumption nobody would ever choose her).

9 hours ago, aradia22 said:

, I'd expect something like a Disney prince song (specifically Snow White or Sleeping Beauty) but yeah, like Agony played straight. So very misogynistic/sexist or incredibly rape-y.

You forget (or I do) that Sondheim was tearing down fairytale tropes in 1987. Agony was a freaking revelation.

Edited March 18, 2019 by Eolivet

[kirkola]

On 3/16/2019 at 6:59 AM, Spartan Girl said:

Cheri Oteri! It's been a while!

Yeah I wasn't feeling this episode, but Rebecca has a point about how sexist some of the older musicals can be. Remember "I Can't Say No" from Oklahoma? 

My favorite part of "I Can't Say No" is that my brother once got caught singing it while walking down the halls in High School.  He got a lot of weird looks!

Oklahoma was one of our favorite musicals.

[Empress1]

16 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

As for the pay at Darryl's firm, I think it has always been on the lower end.  It was mentioned when Rebecca landed there after moving from NY.

I can't imagine that firm would be competitive with any firm bigger than it. It's the kind of firm you go to if you, like Rebecca, are tired of the BigLaw grind and want something with more work/life balance, but you do that knowing you're going to take a giant pay cut. If you want to make bank you go BigLaw. Paula is actually at a good place in her personal life to work at a firm that will demand most of her time - the motherhood issues that a lot of women at those firms deal with are past her. She only has one kid at home and he doesn't need child care, and she's not having any more kids.

(My best friend had her first child when she was working for a big firm. She went back to work on a Thursday and worked through the weekend immediately. She also had to tell partners at her firm that no, they were not going to show up at her apartment for a meeting while she was on maternity leave.)

[dubbel zout]

56 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

I can't imagine that firm would be competitive with any firm bigger than it. It's the kind of firm you go to if you, like Rebecca, are tired of the BigLaw grind and want something with more work/life balance, but you do that knowing you're going to take a giant pay cut. If you want to make bank you go BigLaw.

This is how I think of the firm, too. It probably pays well for the area, but no one is going to get rich working with Darryl.

[aradia22]

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The more I think about it, Rebecca's song is more "tough-as-nails character laments that she's as desperate for love as anyone else." (the closest I can think of is "I Don't Know How to Love Him" from Jesus Chris Superstar 

Ooh, good one. I went through my Spotify Broadway playlist to find any musicals that might at all be relevant. I came up with... Evita, Man of La Mancha, Once On This Island, The Most Happy Fella, Pal Joey, She Loves Me, Jekyll and Hyde, Gigi, Sweet Charity, RENT, Do I Hear A Waltz, Cabaret, Kiss Me Kate, Zorba, Spring Awakening, Little Shop of Horrors, and Gentlemen Prefer Blondes.

But if anything, shows like Evita, Man of La Mancha, Cabaret, She Loves Me, Little Shop of Horrors, and Gentlemen Prefer Blondes are about how women who are somewhat promiscuous (or at least acknowledged as not virginal) still deserve respect and many get into relationships or even get married. That's not to say that Evita isn't pretty misogynistic at times.

Once On This Island, The Most Happy Fella, Gigi, Sweet Charity, Spring Awakening, and Jekyll and Hyde come the closest to moralizing. But Spring Awakening is probably the worst. Again, the others are pretty forgiving and don't really look down on their female characters or make distinctions about marriageable/non-marriageable women. Well, J&K is kind of bad. 

This might be influenced by my taste in musicals. There are other prostitute/fallen women musicals I know like Irma La Douce where I just don't know the score at all. And I'm not as big of a fan of the very old musicals that would maybe have more of these moralizing (plus, for me to know them, they'd have to survive as a recording or be revived and recorded). 

[Whimsy]

As I was reading through the comments about whether Rebecca will end up with one of the guys or pull a Kelly Taylor it occurred to me that maybe they'll have Rebecca end up alone, but with a "hint" that she'll end up with one of the guys.  What I mean is, there are shippers who like Rebecca/Josh, some who like Rebecca/Nathan and those who still like Rebecca/Greg.  So, maybe they'll leave some little glimmer for each of the ships so they feel happy.  I mean, I don't want that.  I actually don't care what the choice is.  I'm just watching this to the end because of how much I loved the first two seasons.  But, I'm wondering if they'll attempt to do something like that. 

[bijoux]

21 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

As for Rebecca's three love interests, I'm going to try to not examine them too closely.  A good argument could be made for all three.  Nathan has improved but is still into performative goodness. It feels like every decent he does is preceded with a declaration of him being a good person now. Josh is still a doofus but is actually largely a good person.  Greg was the person she chose.  While there was some indication of different interests, that's not why they broke up.  They broke up because Rebecca felt she needed to focus on her mental health. 

But I can't believe we're going to spend the next three episodes focused on her love life. 

I wouldn't call Nathaniel's decency performative, more like aware. It's not instinctual for him, he has to make that conscious choice to do good. Sort of like how an alcoholic has to make the choice not to have a drink. I don't think that takes away from his acts and he has stopped doing things to impress Rebecca. This episode he accepted the role in the play to be near her, but then he mostly stepped away and left her be. That episode before the break when Paula graduated, for instance, he texted Rebecca about it from Josh's cell and never said anything about it. It wasn't a performance and scoring, it was doing a nice thing for both Rebecca and Paula. 

That said, I agree about spending too much time on the love interests. Full disclosure, my choices are 1) Nathaniel, 2) no on. But I am not interested in a merry go round until the end. I'm extra suspicious about Josh since there was no movement in his direction yet. 

[aradia22]

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 So, maybe they'll leave some little glimmer for each of the ships so they feel happy. 

Jesus Christ, I think that's the only ending that would make me MAD. It's one thing if they don't have her end up anyone but hint at Greg (or anyone else). That's kind of the Ugly Betty ending. But if the ending still leaves ANY of the three as a possibility then this last season was a complete waste of time. They've been going back and forth for ages. It's getting really old.

[tennisgurl]

As far as musical theater parody episodes go, this one felt kind of weak to me. The whole "old musicals are problematic" isnt exactly the newest hot take, and this one was just kind of confusing. What makes so many of their parody's so funny is how specific they are to whatever genre or thing they're satirizing, but as other commentators have noticed, its a bit hard to figure out exactly what is being satirized here. I can pick up on things, and the way that old musicals are frequently problematic is certainly true, but it felt like they just needed to add something more to get Rebecca out of musical theater. 

It wasnt bad, and I always love hearing what people "really" sound like, and how Rebecca in real life is a rather so so singer (giving her a funny number that needs lots of personality was a good call), but it didnt fully land for me, it felt all over the place. 

So my theory that Rebecca would find her bliss in musical theater was wrong. So what will she try next? I still think they will go with a "I choose me" ending, but what will that entail for her? Also, I guess it wasnt a play, but a revue of random songs from old musicals? Kind of a weird way to stage a show instead of just doing a whole play. Maybe she goes onto write her own musicals for her and her friends to perform?

So is Rebecca mostly just into older musicals, so now she cant do them or love them anymore? I dont know, you could make a case that just because you acknowledge that something has aged badly doesent mean you arent allowed to like the good parts of it anymore. Or maybe just stick to more modern stuff. I mean, Rebecca must have come of age with the big budget cinematic musicals, like Phantom, Les Mis, ect. so I would think she would have liked those as well. I mean, you can pick those apart too, but you can pick anything apart to find things wrong, really. Of course, maybe Rebecca isnt that big a fan of that style, we know how she feels about Cats!

Nathaniel doing the bawdy barmaid song was a highlight for me. And the hilariously random apple song.

Edited March 19, 2019 by tennisgurl

[aradia22]

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What makes so many of their parody's so funny is how specific they are to whatever genre or thing they're satirizing, but as other commentators have noticed, its a bit hard to figure out exactly what is being satirized here.

Based on nothing but speculation, I wonder if Rachel's desire to work in musical theater (thus not wanting to offend writers/composers/directors/choreographers/etc.) and also keep that fanbase happy held her back from being too specific. It's one thing to poke fun at Cats. Everyone does. But I don't see a lot of people in the industry openly taking shots at problematic work (especially when the creators are still alive) outside of blog posts and anonymous comment boards. Critics/reviewers call things out but that's a little different. Making it an revue of clearly old songs shifts it to a problem in the past as though no modern musicals have issues.  *cough Miss Saigon *cough Amazing Grace *cough Pretty Woman 

Sorry about that, it got so dusty all of sudden.😉

[theatremouse]

I don't think it's possible to clearly say "Rebecca's song was Oklahoma", "Valencia's song was Carousel", etc. I don't think they were intentionally going for a one-to-one lampooning with either. I think both were intentionally covering a few simultaneously, and also intentionally making these problematic songs much worse than the ones they're lampooning. In real life, that moment Rebecca had where she was going through the lyrics and then paused wouldn't have been with every single line as it was in the episode. Her "just a few tweaks" probably would be just one verse, or certain phrases here and there. They went hard with the problematic lyrics to drive home the point. It didn't completely work for me, but it seemed like the choice they went with.

[SomeTameGazelle]

On ‎3‎/‎20‎/‎2019 at 10:44 AM, theatremouse said:

I don't think it's possible to clearly say "Rebecca's song was Oklahoma", "Valencia's song was Carousel", etc. I don't think they were intentionally going for a one-to-one lampooning with either. I think both were intentionally covering a few simultaneously, and also intentionally making these problematic songs much worse than the ones they're lampooning. In real life, that moment Rebecca had where she was going through the lyrics and then paused wouldn't have been with every single line as it was in the episode. Her "just a few tweaks" probably would be just one verse, or certain phrases here and there. They went hard with the problematic lyrics to drive home the point. It didn't completely work for me, but it seemed like the choice they went with.

I think you're right and the parody was drawing from an assortment of things. It could still have been internally specific and less obviously awful. 

Maybe they went broad with the problematic lyrics because they assume that most of the audience won't be steeped in musical theatre. But making the alleged classics despicable in order to apparently make Rebecca's creativity shine brighter in contrast felt weak. Especially since at the meta level, songs and storylines in Crazy Ex-Girlfriend have portrayed problematic behaviour in a way that we get to understand doesn't mean that it is recommended. 

If the Elliot Ellison songs had been less glaringly awful, or at least had had some redeeming features, or even if at least Tim had been happy with the Apple Man song, or even if the characters in the audience had had fun with the show, Rebecca could still have found that she had a talent for writing parodies of them.

I fell asleep in the middle the first time I watched the episode, so I went back to watch it again, and although I enjoyed the joke of the trumpet playing to herald Nathaniel's entrance, I kind of hated the part where apparently he had carelessly starred in more than one show before and it had made no impact on him. 

[Shanna Marie]

13 hours ago, SomeTameGazelle said:

I kind of hated the part where apparently he had carelessly starred in more than one show before and it had made no impact on him. 

That was weirdly true to life for me. My freshman year in high school, our one-act play went to the state competition with the male roles mostly filled with football players who apparently got recruited because they desperately needed guys (and I think there was some extra credit involved). They turned out to be some kind of weird acting savants who had no idea what they were doing but somehow just naturally blew everyone away and came home with all kinds of best actor awards. And then they went about their lives, totally unaware that this was a big deal and went back to playing football. It was kind of a case of them being cast because they were physically the ideal for the roles, then they turned out to be naturally really good at it but it wasn't something important to them. The drama guys who really wanted to do well weren't nearly as good because their effort showed, so they came across as fake and stagey. They were ACTING! while the jocks were like "Oh, you want me to pretend to be this person? Okay." That's what seemed to be going on with Nathaniel.

[SomeTameGazelle]

6 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

That was weirdly true to life for me. My freshman year in high school, our one-act play went to the state competition with the male roles mostly filled with football players who apparently got recruited because they desperately needed guys (and I think there was some extra credit involved). They turned out to be some kind of weird acting savants who had no idea what they were doing but somehow just naturally blew everyone away and came home with all kinds of best actor awards. And then they went about their lives, totally unaware that this was a big deal and went back to playing football. It was kind of a case of them being cast because they were physically the ideal for the roles, then they turned out to be naturally really good at it but it wasn't something important to them. The drama guys who really wanted to do well weren't nearly as good because their effort showed, so they came across as fake and stagey. They were ACTING! while the jocks were like "Oh, you want me to pretend to be this person? Okay." That's what seemed to be going on with Nathaniel.

The part that bothered me wasn't that I thought it was implausible that he could have been good without caring about musicals. It was the combination of yet another chapter of Nathaniel's hagiography with the thought that it had never occurred to Nathaniel before now that he would impress Rebecca by telling her about his musical theatre background. 

[angora]

On 3/17/2019 at 10:42 PM, aradia22 said:

The thing I really didn't buy is that someone like Rebecca would have a crisis of faith about her love of musicals based on this experience. Because someone who loves musicals the way she does... someone who has the feelings she has about Cats... that person's knowledge of musical theater wouldn't just consist of South Pacific and Eliot Elliot. She would know Sondheim and maybe even Jeanine Tesori and Jason Robert Brown, etc. (we haven't seen direct evidence of Rebecca knowing "modern" musicals beyond the general contemporary musical theater style the show defaults to when it's not copying something specific). So she would know that musicals have depth and they're not all just bad, problematic messaging. 

We do know, at minimum, that she knows RENT.  There was one episode where she kept making a bunch of RENT references to Paula's utter confusion and finally told Paula to listen to the cast recording, shouting "Do NOT watch the movie!!!" as she exited the scene.

On 3/17/2019 at 11:23 PM, aradia22 said:

I've been OK with him up until now but like the Springsteen song, this stood out. My issue was that more than ever, I felt like Skylar sounded like someone from Glee. Like, if he wasn't busy, they could have cast Darren Criss. And there's no way Santino as Greg could have been one of the kids on Glee even if he was age appropriate.

OMG, that's exactly it, thank you!  I couldn't articulate what precisely was so wrong about his performance - I just knew that it 100% wasn't Greg.  Glee-like hits the nail on the head.

[aradia22]

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That was weirdly true to life for me. My freshman year in high school, our one-act play went to the state competition with the male roles mostly filled with football players who apparently got recruited because they desperately needed guys (and I think there was some extra credit involved). They turned out to be some kind of weird acting savants who had no idea what they were doing but somehow just naturally blew everyone away and came home with all kinds of best actor awards. And then they went about their lives, totally unaware that this was a big deal and went back to playing football. It was kind of a case of them being cast because they were physically the ideal for the roles, then they turned out to be naturally really good at it but it wasn't something important to them. The drama guys who really wanted to do well weren't nearly as good because their effort showed, so they came across as fake and stagey. They were ACTING! while the jocks were like "Oh, you want me to pretend to be this person? Okay." That's what seemed to be going on with Nathaniel.

I think this basically happens everywhere except maybe at all boys schools. It's a joke for people who remember doing high school theater and never having enough male cast members (why didn't the director just pick different shows or cast girls in the male parts? I'll never know.). I agree it's a weird thing to have in his backstory because even if it wasn't important to him, it shows a softer side to his character. He's supposed to have grown into this kinder, more accepting person. There's no way you could do high school theater with all the dumb warm ups and bonding exercises and also hear the messages of those shows and not take something away. It felt like a moment when they wanted to make the joke and didn't care how it would affect our understanding of the character. Also, it's a very over the top joke about Nathaniel being perfect. I don't know Godspell, but anyone who can sing a passable Gethsemane isn't just a jock who is a weird acting savant. It's not an easy sing. It's like someone stumbling into getting cast as Evita. (Those are the two ALW musicals I'll admit to liking and it's because they push the singers to their limits for flashy vocal performances. Also, Evita is legitimately good. Fight me.)