S05.E17: Forever

[Joe Hellandback]

The Good; Angel's back, hooray. The final scene where Buffy and Dawn collapse into each other's arms is my favourite scene in the whole of Buffy.

The Bad; Dawn stealing the eggs, the Ghora demon just looks lame.

Best line; Dawn (catching a sobbing Buffy who breaks down in her arms); "It's OK, okkaaayyyyy!"

Jeez!; Doc is far more human that many of the demons the gang face and ALL the scarier for it. Like Mayor Wilkins, Doc is a tribute to the skill of an actor in the role. Am I the only one who finds Willow's idea of making a stuffed animal dance extremely sinister? Buffy slaps Dawnie but in fairness she has every right to.

Kinky dinky; Glory refers to Jinx as her 'Robed stud'. Willow likens Tara's fried eggs to 'little boobs'. Anya and Xander have sex, Anya hinting to a terrified Xander she eventually wants children.

Captain Subtext; Note that Buffy never hugs Dawn after Joyce dies, not even at the graveside, can't even bare to look her in the face. (both girls sitting alone in their bedrooms) Can't stand to see her mother's eyes looking back at her? It's only in the last scene that the sisters finally find each other and it's all too wonderful. Spike (who was noticeably absent in The Body) brings flowers for Joyce whom he professes his fondness for (in Lies My Parents Told Me we discover why). Buffy says she wants Angel to stay on in Sunnydale for all time which must give Bangler's reassurance.

Apocalypses; 5,

Scoobies in bondage: Buffy: 8 Giles: 4 Cordy: 5 Will: 3 Jenny: 1 Angel: 4 Oz: 1 Faith: 3 Joyce: 1 Wes: 1 Xander; 1 Dawn; 1

Scoobies knocked out: Buffy: 16 Giles: 10 Cordy: 6 Xander: 8 Will: 5 Jenny: 2 Angel: 6 Oz: 3 Faith: 1 Joyce: 3 Wes: 1 Anya;1

Kills: Buffy: 95 vamps, 32 demons, 6 monsters, 3 humans, 1 werewolf, 1 spirit warrior & a robot Giles: 5 vamps, 1 demon Cordy: 3 vamps, a demon Will: 6 vamps Angel: 3 vamps, 1 demon, 1 human Oz: 3 vamps, 1 zombie Faith: 16 vamps, 5 demons, 3 humans Xander: 5 vamps, 2 zombies, a demon, a demon Anya: a demon Riley; 18 vamps + 7 demons

Scoobies go evil: Giles: 1 Cordy: 1 Will: 2 Jenny: 1 Angel: 1 Oz: 1 Joyce: 1 Xander: 3

Alternate scoobies: Buffy: 6 Giles: 3 Cordy: 1 Will: 2 Jenny: 2 Angel: 3 Oz: 2 Joyce: 2 Xander: 3

Recurring characters killed: 10 Jesse, Flutie, Jenny, Kendra, Larry, Snyder, Professor Walsh, Forrest, McNamara, Joyce

Sunnydale deaths; 89;

Total number of scoobies: 6 Giles, Xander, Willow, Buffy, Anya, Tara,

Xander demon magnet: 5(6?) Preying Mantis Lady, Inca Mummy Girl, Drusilla, VampWillow, Anya (arguably Buffy & Faith with their demon essences?), Dracula?

Scoobies shot: Giles: 2 Angel: 3 Oz: 4 Riley; 1

Notches on Scooby bedpost: Giles: 2; Joyce & Olivia, possibly Jenny and 3xDraccy babes? Cordy: 1? Buffy: 3 confirmed; Angel, Parker,Riley, 1 possible, Dracula(?) Angel: 1;Buffy Joyce: 1;Giles, 2 possible, Ted and Dracula(?) Oz: 3; Groupie, Willow & Verucca Faith:2 ;Xander, Riley Xander: 2; Faith, Anya Willow: 2;Oz and Tara Riley; 3; Buffy, Sandy and unnamed vampwhore

Questions and observations; Willow's helping of Dawn foretells 

Spoiler

her abuse of magic in later seasons.

A lot of people blame Dawn for trying to resurrect Joyce but just imagine you're 14 year old girl and the mother you love more than anything has died. If there was the slightest chance you could bring her back, wouldn't you? Wouldn't anyone? Angel comes to Sunnydale for the funeral. Do Wes and Cordy come? Oz? Do they tell Faith?

Spoiler

She doesn't mention Joyce when she turns up in season 7 but maybe Buffy posts her a letter?

Nice mislead with Buffy and the coffins, you think she's vamphunting at first. Dawn in pigtails to make her look even younger. The album Giles is listening to is the same one he listened to with Joyce in Band Candy.

For the record the scariest monster we never see is the THING that crosses past the window and knocks on the door of the Summer's house. And Buffy goes 'Mommy' and runs to the door because she'd give the world to have Joyce back. And Dawn becomes the grown up and rips up the photo so she opens the door to nothing. And the Summer's girls collapse into each other's arms because (to paraphrase Ally McBeal) Joyce is dead, they loved her and she died and she's going to be dead forever. But they'll always have each other, she lives on through her deeds and her daughters. Angelus in Passion referred to 'The ecstasy of grief'. Here we see it in all it's glory. And in many ways Buffy needs Dawn a lot more than Dawn needs Buffy, Buffy doesn't ask who's going to take care of Dawn, she asks who's going to take care of 'us'. And the answer is from now on they take care of each other.

Marks out of 10; 9/10, would be 10/10 except for the stupid looking demon.

[illdoc]

12 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Angel comes to Sunnydale for the funeral. Do Wes and Cordy come?

At this particular point,

Spoiler

Angel is estranged from Wes & Cordy, so he probably hasn't told them (yet?).

I think Angel does tell Buffy that he had to wait until the sun went down. If Wes/Cordy had gone to Sunnydale, he could have hidden under a blanket (or in the trunk) while one of them drove. Oz is probably hard to get a hold of (maybe Willow communicates with him via e-mail), so Oz probably doesn't know. It would be Angel's responsibility/choice to tell Faith, since I think he's the only one in touch with her.

[Melancholy]

I don't think these other characters went to Joyce's funeral. I don't think we ever saw Wesley ever meet Joyce- and I have a hunch that he never did. I think Oz only was in the same room with Joyce in Dead Man's Party or like, when he burst through the ceiling in Gingerbread. So, crowd-stuff with no real interaction between Oz and Joyce. Cordelia interacted with Joyce the most specifically and she certainly interacted with Buffy- but:

Spoiler

IMO, Cordelia was pretty solidly finished with her Sunnydale Scooby gang when she got to LA. Girl doesn't even say a word on her relationship with her parents. 

Willow, alone, goes out of her way to keep an open line of communication and help between the Scoobies and the Fang Gang. So, she does favors for Cordelia. However, Cordelia doesn't really reach back.   

I believe that Angel came to see Buffy in Forever just after Epiphany. As Buffy as insecurely doubting her ability to be competent without her mother, maybe Angel could have reassured Buffy that at least, she wouldn't abandon her friends and mission to literally and thematically jerk off all season. 

[Halting Hex]

Wow, that's some bad hair on both of them.  And, of course, my two standard criticisms of this scene:

1)  Tara only said that people "sometimes" come back wrong.    Why not wait and see?  Seems pretty much a waste of you killed a perfectly normal Resurrected!Joyce for nothing.

2)  Don't hit your sister, Buffy.  Even if you weren't the Slayer, don't hit your sister.  She says you're being emotionally inaccessible (and she's right about that; look at the brush-off Buffy gives Angel), is that really a slapping offense?

Still, much better than The Body.  Because, you know, things happen and all that sort of thing. (Although Tara's dress at the funeral is rather a catastrophe, IIRC.  But even so.)

[Joe Hellandback]

23 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

 

Best Scene Ever.

Absolutely, I cry every time I watch it!

15 hours ago, illdoc said:

At this particular point,

  Hide contents

Angel is estranged from Wes & Cordy, so he probably hasn't told them (yet?).

I think Angel does tell Buffy that he had to wait until the sun went down. If Wes/Cordy had gone to Sunnydale, he could have hidden under a blanket (or in the trunk) while one of them drove. Oz is probably hard to get a hold of (maybe Willow communicates with him via e-mail), so Oz probably doesn't know. It would be Angel's responsibility/choice to tell Faith, since I think he's the only one in touch with her.

No, at this point

Spoiler

it's post Epiphany so they've just got back together 

[Joe Hellandback]

15 hours ago, Melancholy said:

I don't think these other characters went to Joyce's funeral. I don't think we ever saw Wesley ever meet Joyce- and I have a hunch that he never did. I think Oz only was in the same room with Joyce in Dead Man's Party or like, when he burst through the ceiling in Gingerbread. So, crowd-stuff with no real interaction between Oz and Joyce. Cordelia interacted with Joyce the most specifically and she certainly interacted with Buffy- but:

  Hide contents

IMO, Cordelia was pretty solidly finished with her Sunnydale Scooby gang when she got to LA. Girl doesn't even say a word on her relationship with her parents. 

Willow, alone, goes out of her way to keep an open line of communication and help between the Scoobies and the Fang Gang. So, she does favors for Cordelia. However, Cordelia doesn't really reach back.   

I believe that Angel came to see Buffy in Forever just after Epiphany. As Buffy as insecurely doubting her ability to be competent without her mother, maybe Angel could have reassured Buffy that at least, she wouldn't abandon her friends and mission to literally and thematically jerk off all season. 

We do, Wes meets her in Earshot. 

5 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Wow, that's some bad hair on both of them.  And, of course, my two standard criticisms of this scene:

1)  Tara only said that people "sometimes" come back wrong.    Why not wait and see?  Seems pretty much a waste of you killed a perfectly normal Resurrected!Joyce for nothing.

2)  Don't hit your sister, Buffy.  Even if you weren't the Slayer, don't hit your sister.  She says you're being emotionally inaccessible (and she's right about that; look at the brush-off Buffy gives Angel), is that really a slapping offense?

Still, much better than The Body.  Because, you know, things happen and all that sort of thing. (Although Tara's dress at the funeral is rather a catastrophe, IIRC.  But even so.)

I like Dawn in pigtails, she's so cute. And no, this wasn't meant to be, whatever knocked on that door could never be Joyce. Whilst I love Dawnie deeply there are many times she deserves a good spanking and this is one of them, Buffy's slap was wholly justified. I actually do prefer this to The Body where we're all still in shock, this one hangs together better as an episode in itself, I don't cry at The Body, I always cry at this one. .  

[lembergwatcher]

As far as I remember, Joyce Summers had at least one sister. Where is she? Shouldn't she pay her nieces Buffy and Dawn some short visit due to circumstances? Because we not only don't see her around,

Spoiler

but it seems like the mysterious auntie literally disappeared from the face of the earth or the writers just forgot she ever existed...

IIRC aunt Arlene was mentioned for the last time in... Pangs, which occured more than a year before the events depicted in Forever. Very interesting.

And how come Hank ended up losing any interest whatsoever in his daughters' affairs after spending time and even expressing concern (When She Was Bad) in the past? Was Daddy Summers' (and other family members') indifference just another side effect of the Great Mindfuck of 2000?

Other thing I can't understand is why all of a sudden everyone's precious Dawn is let free to hang out at the graveyard late in the evening despite her older sister and the gang being overly protective of the young shiny key? What about "be home before dusk" golden rule or something?

Finally, how was Spike going to "pay his respects" to the late Joyce (i.e. deliver a bouquet of flowers) since his invitation to Casa Summers was revoked four episodes earlier? I'm sure Spiketters hate Xander (and probably Willow to some extent) for "misinterpreting" William's actions and berating "poor" and "sensitive" guy, but can the Slayerettes' initial reaction be any different after the whole shocking Buffy with a cattle prod thing in Crush?

[Loandbehold]

1 hour ago, lembergwatcher said:

Finally, how was Spike going to "pay his respects" to the late Joyce (i.e. deliver a bouquet of flowers) since his invitation to Casa Summers was revoked four episodes earlier?

Given Willow's statement to Xander that there wasn't a note with the flowers, Spike wasn't planning on going inside. Either knock on the door and give them to Buffy/Dawn or leave them at the door and walk away.

And, that should be one of the last times that I "defend" William.

[lembergwatcher]

Good point. The last option ("leave them at the door and walk away") is most likely. Xander's attitude is quite understandable and justified though.

[Loandbehold]

2 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Xander's attitude is quite understandable and justified though.

Absolutely. I would have cheered if he staked Spike right then and there. 

[Halting Hex]

13 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Finally, how was Spike going to "pay his respects" to the late Joyce (i.e. deliver a bouquet of flowers) since his invitation to Casa Summers was revoked four episodes earlier? I'm sure Spiketters hate Xander (and probably Willow to some extent) for "misinterpreting" William's actions and berating "poor" and "sensitive" guy, but can the Slayerettes' initial reaction be any different after the whole shocking Buffy with a cattle prod thing in Crush?

Let's not forget that the last time Xander (and Willow) saw Spike, in I Was Made to Love You, he was claiming that Buffy had lied about the events of Crush, in hopes of keeping his "in" with the other Scoobs.  Of course, W/X saw through that, just as easily as Giles did.

So, it's not surprising that any claims of sincere grief and sympathy by Spike should be met with a certain amount of skepticism.  And frankly, if Spike was going to just drop off the flowers and run, that seems a bit weasely; he shouldn't be making any overtures to Buffy until he formally apologizes and she accepts it (if she does).  He's not allowed access to her private emotions until she's willing to let him; that's how this works.

From the script (sort of; I cut the cut lines, as one of them was breaking the flow):

Quote

Spike's on the path - holding a large bunch of flowers which he was just about to put on the steps. Xander's expression hardens.

XANDER:  You've got to be kidding.

SPIKE:  I'm not going in.

He stoops to deposit the flowers but Xander stops him.

XANDER:  And you're not leaving those.  You actually think you're going to score points with Buffy this way?

Spike stands back up. Livid.

SPIKE:  This isn't about Buffy-

XANDER:  Bull. We're all hip to your doomed obsession. 

SPIKE: They're for Joyce.

Nope, I'm with Xander here.  If this was just about Joyce, she's going to be in a nice private grave in about 12 hours; Spike could just drop his flowers there and have a little chat about marshmallows in the cocoa.* The only reason Spike is leaving his "flowers for Joyce" at Buffy's house is because he wants Buffy to see them.  

*-Okay, so actually he'd have to wait a day, as Buffy and Angel hog the graveside all night long, but so what?  He's immortal; he can wait.

(One line from the script I'm sad they cut:  Xander actually says "This isn't the time for your crap, Spike".  Although, perhaps that's redundant?  As it's never really the time for that.)

[Halting Hex]

I've seen people criticize Angel for not telling Buffy about his sleeping with Darla in Reprise/Epiphany, since he's kissing Buffy here and perhaps she's under the mistaken impression that he's been pining away for her, all hurt and rejected since she told him she was better off with Riley at the end of Sanctuary. And she deserves his honesty if they're going to take any steps towards renewing the relationship, even though Buffy ends up cutting things off quickly.  (But, of course, Angel couldn't have known she was going to do that.)

IMO, though, what he did is less important than why he did it.  Angel was attempting soulicide, to lose that pesky soul and go back to being "no conscience, no remorse…it's an easy way to live".  And considering that Buffy well remembers what happened when Leatherpants came out to play three years ago, Angel's tempting fate that way should not only be a red flag on his offer to renew the relationship, but on whether Buffy should even be trusting him to run around free in Los Angeles, with Cordelia and Wesley and so many other "happy meals on legs" within easy chomping distance.

Spoiler

Of course, when we actually do see "Angelus" again, two years hence, he'll be a fat frat-boy who makes lots of smirking sexual innuendos but doesn't actually, you know, kill people.  Grant you, it's not the first time Mr. Scourge of Europe lost that particular plot (Spike had to remind Angel about killing being vampires' raison d'être in Innocence), but still annoying, IMO.

All because, I presume, Mutant Enemy didn't want a trail of bloody bodies (from raped-to-death Fred on down) causing viewers to wonder if unpentant serial killers really made good leads for spinoffs, or good boyfriends for Slayers.  Even though Spike already had Asshole Now A SOOOOOOOOOUL NOW by then.

 

Edited September 17, 2020 by Halting Hex

[watcher1006]

That scene between Buffy and Dawn at the end is brilliant. And from a human standpoint quite believable. Buffy HAS been occupied taking care of arrangements for their mother and everything else that happens when a parent dies unexpectedly. And it IS all her responsibility (do we ever get detail on why her dad is absent?) But being busy and rushing around taking care of things is also an emotional defense mechanism against having to deal full on and right away with a devastating personal loss. But it is completely natural for Dawn to see her sister do this and to resent her for not caring about losing their mom. Great acting by both Sarah Michelle Gellar and Michelle Trachtenberg.

[Joe Hellandback]

3 hours ago, watcher1006 said:

That scene between Buffy and Dawn at the end is brilliant. And from a human standpoint quite believable. Buffy HAS been occupied taking care of arrangements for their mother and everything else that happens when a parent dies unexpectedly. And it IS all her responsibility (do we ever get detail on why her dad is absent?) But being busy and rushing around taking care of things is also an emotional defense mechanism against having to deal full on and right away with a devastating personal loss. But it is completely natural for Dawn to see her sister do this and to resent her for not caring about losing their mom. Great acting by both Sarah Michelle Gellar and Michelle Trachtenberg.

My favourite in the entire series. 

[lembergwatcher]

13 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

And considering that Buffy well remembers what happened when Leatherpants came out to play three years ago, Angel's tempting fate that way should not only be a red flag on his offer to renew the relationship, but on whether Buffy should even be trusting him to run around free in Los Angeles, with Cordelia and Wesley and so many other "happy meals on legs" within easy chomping distance.

Does she? If Buffy really remembered what happened after her 17th birthday, she wouldn't even consider being in "welcome home, all is forgiven" mood throughout season 3. Not to mention, that Her Slayerness is still totally unable to recall Jenny Calendar's name. So if Angel's "soul issues" (and a pile of bodies that comes with the package) didn't matter that much to her two years ago, why should Buffy all of a sudden care now? She didn't give a hoot about Leatherpants being in close proximity to Willow, Xander, Joyce and Giles back in the senior year and was ok with Angel punching Xander in the face and leaving him unconscious in the street at night. Why should she care about Cordelia's or especially Wesley's well-being?

[Halting Hex]

Well, as much as one may quibble with Angel's various decisions in Season 3, he did have That Pesky Soul then, and was not actually the homicidal Leatherpants of the preceding spring.  And Buffy believed she knew the operating equation:  "Angelus" stays locked away, as long as she doesn't let Angel unlock her box again.  Lots of angst and tension, but Buffy believed she'd gotten the message about how to avoid "messages" such the one Angel had threatened to send her in Innocence.  ("It kind of involves you finding the bodies of all your friends.")  So I can understand how she wasn't at constant "Red Alert" levels of worry that year.

BUUUT…the information that some criticize Angel for withholding here is rather different.  If Buffy knew that

a) he was now actively trying to lose That Pesky Soul, and 

b) he didn't much care which used-up whore he had to bang in order to try and shake it loose

that might have given Buffy cause to reassess the situation in ways that one smack of Xander (for the greater good, mere weeks after he'd saved Xander's life) did not.  And the fact that Angel goes to the smoochy place without giving Buffy this information, some see as betraying her trust in ways that he hadn't since Lie To Me.

(Well, actually since I Will Erase Your Memory, but Buffy doesn't remember that, for self-evident reasons.)

[lembergwatcher]

As much as I like Angel with That Pesky Soul a little bit more than his soulless alter ego, him having his soul back doesn't make Jenny and many other innocent people any less dead. Not to mention that "Angel is good now (again)" doesn't mean the things he did to Giles never happened. Some ethical issues, I guess. And why was Buffy so sure it only required letting Angel "unlock her box again"? I don't remember any clear cut statements saying: "In order to give Angel a moment of perfect happiness you have to shag him all night long!" 

Spoiler

He slept with at least three women throughout the spin-off and even saw Cordelia semi-naked in Waiting in the Wings and yet didn't lose his pesky soul...

  It never occured to Buffy her boyfriend might become too happy by simply having her around. That's too reckless for a supposed champion of humanity, I'd say.

As for this particular situation, I don't know what would have happened if Buffy knew about Darla. Probably the same thing that'd happened after Spike hooked up with Harmony (who kidnapped Dawn) trying to have his chip removed, and chained Buffy in his crypt threatening to feed her to Drusilla. Not a thing. She didn't stake Spike, did she? One punch in the face and that's it.

Buffy doesn't give a damn about betrayals these days, AFAIK.

[Joe Hellandback]

20 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

As much as I like Angel with That Pesky Soul a little bit more than his soulless alter ego, him having his soul back doesn't make Jenny and many other innocent people any less dead. Not to mention that "Angel is good now (again)" doesn't mean the things he did to Giles never happened. Some ethical issues, I guess. And why was Buffy so sure it only required letting Angel "unlock her box again"? I don't remember any clear cut statements saying: "In order to give Angel a moment of perfect happiness you have to shag him all night long!" 

  Reveal spoiler

He slept with at least three women throughout the spin-off and even saw Cordelia semi-naked in Waiting in the Wings and yet didn't lose his pesky soul...

  It never occured to Buffy her boyfriend might become too happy by simply having her around. That's too reckless for a supposed champion of humanity, I'd say.

As for this particular situation, I don't know what would have happened if Buffy knew about Darla. Probably the same thing that'd happened after Spike hooked up with Harmony (who kidnapped Dawn) trying to have his chip removed, and chained Buffy in his crypt threatening to feed her to Drusilla. Not a thing. She didn't stake Spike, did she? One punch in the face and that's it.

Buffy doesn't give a damn about betrayals these days, AFAIK.

Demons, cleavage and betrayal, what Buffy is all about. 

[wknt3]

On 9/20/2020 at 5:39 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

Demons, cleavage and betrayal, what Buffy is all about. 

Also Veep, Fox News, and most reality TV. Heck that's a good description of what much of television is all about. Much of life too.

[Halting Hex]

So I was idly browsing images of a (non-BtVS-related) celeb, and there was one with a fan, and it turns out that it was from this blog where fans recount their meetings with celebs.  And they had a link for this cast, and it turned out to be during the filming of this episode.  Here is Lorrain from Sacramento telling her tale.

Highlights, if you don't care to read the whole thing:

• Lorrain's cousin Jon lived around the corner from "1630 Revello" in Torrance and gave her the tip that the show would be shooting there, so she took the overnight Amtrak and came down to meet the cast.   They were shooting the "aw, Spike didn't leave a card!" scene, so it was Aly/Nick/James present.

• James was friendly, signed a picture "Hello, Cutie".  Heh.  A bit dated by this point, but nice.  (And good that he hadn't switched to "Out.For.A.Walk…Bitch", I suppose.)

• Nick was in the makeup trailer and the assistant wasn't sure about bothering him to meet some fans, but Jon talked about how Lorrain was such a big fan and spent 17 hours on the train, etc., and she relented.  Nick came out, was completely charming, signed the picture "Howdy".

• When Aly came out of make up, they went to her, took pictures, she signed her name with a smiley-face.  Then she hopped on Nick for a piggy-back ride, and he told Lorrain to get a picture of Aly's butt because it was cute, Nick said.  (Lorrain agreed.  Also calls Aly "dainty" overall, physically.)

• The scene took forever to shoot because of the planes flying overhead and traffic noise and the actors kept blowing their lines.  At one point Lorrain told Jon that Aly was the girl from American Pie, which he hadn't known, and he wondered if he could get her to say "This one time at band camp…" to him.  But James told Lorrain that Aly got that request all the time and didn't like it, so the fans demurred.  (Which, fair enough.  I'd get tired of saying that line, even without the censorable part.)

So there you go.  (Picture of Aly riding piggy-back on Nick not included, sadly.)

[lembergwatcher]

16 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Picture of Aly riding piggy-back on Nick not included, sadly.

Wow. I never knew such picture exists. 
Now I wanna use it for a Xillow fanfic I still hope to write one day...
Of course, piggy-back riding is not so exciting as skinny-dipping, but still... Then again we have photoshop... 

Edited January 13, 2023 by lembergwatcher