S05.E11: Triangle

[Joe Hellandback]

The Good; All of it, a lightweight ep but a really good one, I think we've all had enough Buffy/Riley doomed romance and ill Joyce for a while. Time for some fun plus some lovely Buffy/Dawn bed scenes and a great redefinement of the Anya/Xander/Willow relationship.

The Bad; Anya says she's never driven before but she refers to her car in Graduation Day pt2? Of course it's possible she meant a hired car with a driver. 

Best line; Troll; "Do you know where there are babies?" Spike (to Xander) "Where do you think, the hospital?" Xander (shocked) "What? SHUT UP!" (that humanity still a work in progress, huh Spike? As is proved by him expecting credit for not feeding off the victims at the Bronze)

Women good/men bad; Actually Anya seems to disparage women who constantly pick the wrong man meaning she has to inflict vengeance on them again and again. Anya made her boyfriend a troll to punish him for cheating on her.

Jeez!; Eating babies?

Kinky dinky; Buffy meets a nun who let's her try on her wimple which is a level of kink that even scares Xander (although from all we've learned it might be just Angel's thing?). They should have had a picture of that. Spikes rant at the mannequin is hysterically funny, pathetic and scary all at the same time. Anya intends to get around the health inspector by flirting with him. The Troll plans to make 'Merry sport' with Sunnydales more attractive daughters and 'making merry with the local virgins'. Spike seems to delight in copping a feel of Buffy when the troll knocks them both to the ground at the Bronze (his little smile as they get to their feet says it all). Anya reminds Willow that it was her lips that broke up Xander and Cordelia.

Captain Subtext; Tara likes Greek studies, the Amazons? Sappho? Buffy and Tara snuggle, Buffy's distress at their fight obviously grounded in her and Riley. She asks the nun what the whole 'abjuring the company of men' is like, implying she's considering it. Will defensively states she would never have sex with Xander because 'Hello, gay now!' Lovely scene where Xander walks into the Magic Shop and sees Willow and Anya "Hey my two favourite girls"(notices Tara) "Three favourite girls". Love the little smile Tara gives when he says that. Xander says that Willow gives him a 'What do you see in her?' look concerning Anya, surely as a lesbian she should appreciate exactly what Xander sees in the beautiful Anya? Anya comments that Willow doesn't want anyone else to have Xander. Again with Riley gone Buffy seems to be drawing closer and closer to Dawn as an emotional/physical substitute.

Scoobies to the ER; Xander pretty banged up, his hand seemingly broken.

Apocalypses; 5,

Scoobies in bondage: Buffy: 8 Giles: 4 Cordy: 5 Will: 3 Jenny: 1 Angel: 4 Oz: 1 Faith: 3 Joyce: 1 Wes: 1 Xander; 1 Dawn; 1

Scoobies knocked out: Buffy at the magic shop Buffy: 16 Giles: 10 Cordy: 6 Xander: 8 Will: 5 Jenny: 2 Angel: 6 Oz: 3 Faith: 1 Joyce: 3 Wes: 1 Anya;1

Kills: another vamp for Buffy Buffy: 94 vamps, 32 demons, 6 monsters, 3 humans, 1 spirit warrior & a robot Giles: 5 vamps, 1 demon Cordy: 3 vamps, a demon Will: 6 vamps Angel: 3 vamps, 1 demon, 1 human Oz: 3 vamps, 1 zombie, 1 werewolf Faith: 16 vamps, 5 demons, 3 humans Xander: 5 vamps, 2 zombies, a demon, a demon Anya: a demon Riley; 18 vamps + 7 demons

Scoobies go evil: Giles: 1 Cordy: 1 Will: 2 Jenny: 1 Angel: 1 Oz: 1 Joyce: 1 Xander: 3

Alternate scoobies: Buffy: 6 Giles: 3 Cordy: 1 Will: 2 Jenny: 2 Angel: 3 Oz: 2 Joyce: 2 Xander: 3

Recurring characters killed: 9 Jesse, Flutie, Jenny, Kendra, Larry, Snyder, Professor Walsh, Forrest, McNamara

Sunnydale deaths; 89;

Total number of scoobies: 6 Giles, Xander, Willow, Buffy, Anya, Tara,

Xander demon magnet: 5(6?) Preying Mantis Lady, Inca Mummy Girl, Drusilla, VampWillow, Anya (arguably Buffy & Faith with their demon essences?), Dracula?

Scoobies shot: Giles: 2 Angel: 3 Oz: 4 Riley; 1

Notches on Scooby bedpost: Giles: 2; Joyce & Olivia, possibly Jenny and 3xDraccy babes? Cordy: 1? Buffy: 3 confirmed; Angel, Parker,Riley, 1 possible, Dracula(?) Angel: 1;Buffy Joyce: 1;Giles, 2 possible, Ted and Dracula(?) Oz: 3; Groupie, Willow & Verucca Faith:2 ;Xander, Riley Xander: 2; Faith, Anya Willow: 2;Oz and Tara Riley; 3; Buffy, Sandy and vampwhore

Questions and observations; Anya makes Xander promise he will send her big signals if he ever leaves her. Well,

Spoiler

jilting her at the altar was a pretty big sign.

Nice visual gag, Xander wonder's how Buffy is dealing with her breakup and the action cuts to a pretty young nun standing in the convent courtyard, for a moment we wonder if Buffy's taken her vows (Buffy the Vampire Slaying Nun would probably please some of the shows more puritan critics. Or maybe the kinkier ones depending on how you look at it?). Anya's top makes her look like a whale shark. Willow refers to Dr Seus and is ironically wearing a red/white striped top just like the character in the book. Buffy looks like she needs an after school burger. With Giles out of town and Riley and Oz gone Xander ends up confiding in Spike as the only other male around which

Spoiler

foretells seasons 6 and 7.

The origin of the phrase 'Insane troll logic'. Again a bit morally dubious letting the troll go. Joyce, Giles and Buffy are all in on the Dawn secret, Joyce refers to her as 'My little girl'.

Marks out of 10; 8/10

[lembergwatcher]

Today let's start with the good. Buffy living in a nunnery? Why not? I think this could be really good for her, since she obviously didn't like the life she lived. Walk this way, Buffy. Let the others carry on the fight (people survived livin' on the Hellmouth for a long time before Buffy arrived in 1997 after all).

Spoiler

I still have a dream to write a piece of fanfiction about Faith, disappointed with her life of constant violence and debauchery, ending up retiring to some Catholic convent after completing her mission of saving the world.

 
So I dare say the convent life won't be all bad for our blonde Slayer.

Spoiler

In fact saying vows would have been 1000 times more preferable in B's case than turning into Spikey's "love bitch", but JMO.

Once again kudos to Xander for not yielding to Olaf's provocation and not bowing to much stronger opponent. His eagerness to sacrifice his own life when his loved ones were in danger can be only appreciated (he was much more than he seemed to be, no doubt about it). Although it wouldn't be that bad if he had chosen Anya in response to the troll's request (but most people will probably disagree with me).

As much as I love the idea of Willow/Anya bitter rivalry (especially when it came to Xander), I prefer seeing both of them acting like a mature women, not some 12-year-olds (although I realize that Anya and maturity are two totally opposite concepts). It is my firm belief that Willow still had a thing for her lifelong friend (she might learn to hide it a lot better and sorry, Tara, no place for you here).

Spoiler

The way she reacted on X/A falling out scene in Flooded and after hearing Xander announcing his engagement to Anya in All the Way proved Willow wasn't too happy about Xander chosing his own little road to ruin. After all she didn't judge Xander when he reconsidered his decision later (Hell's Bells, Normal Again) and began to tolerate Anya more when it became obvious she won't be Mrs. Harris.

The conversation between Willow and Anya, while both were searching for the anti-troll spell at the Magic Box, was one of the few moments in the ep that I liked either. Though Willow's willingness to give in to Anya regarding Xander disappointed yours truly considerably, while very few things in the whole show sounded equally unconvincing as Anya's assurance 'bout never hurting Xander (ain't gonna buy it, demon lady, so don't try).

Quote

ANYA: I don't do magic now. You're the one with that kind of power. In fact, D'Hoffryn offered you my old job. You're closer to being a vengeance demon than I am, maybe Xander should be afraid of you.
WILLOW: Xander's my best friend!
ANYA: Oh, and you don't want anyone else to have him. I know what broke up him and Cordelia, you know. It was you! And your lips!

WILLOW: No it was not! Well, yes it was so, but ... that was a long time ago. Do you think I'd do that again?

Oh Willow, please, do it again, do it again! Say what you will, but I do love the idea of Willow "poisoning" Xander's mind against Anya, or luring him away with her "lips". And don't try to tell me it would be bad, 'cause it wouldn't.

Now the bad. Three things I dislike the most about that ep. First. It would be much better to let Xander say something more in regard to two most important women in his life and what they mean to him IMO (instead of wasting Xander's rhetoric on his "passionate" speech regarding B/R relationship and that useless pre-coital monologue in the previous ep). Second. I really can't either stand or accept Buffy's "They have a miraculous love!" shit concerning Xanya. What exactly was so "miraculous" about their "love"? Both of them liking Xander's penis? The thrill of fucking while listening to Anya's gruesome stories? The BDSM thing? And look who's talking - Buffy Summers, the renowned expert on all things love-related (the one who had screwed her own love life in the previos episode). And while Willow was engaged in the childish exchange with Anya at the MB, Buffy found a new, Tara-shaped shoulder to cry on 

Spoiler

(some foreshadowing of crying in Tara's lap over fucking with Spike in the following season, I guess).

Well, I understand there are people who care about their friends and want them to be happy, and be loved, and have stable relationships, yada yada (since the aforementioned people themselves usually do not succeed when it comes to love). Some of us tend to be obsessed with others' happiness, because when we fail, sometimes we desperately want the others to succeed (instead of us) in order to meet our expectations. Nothing wrong with that, I guess. It's just that romance with Anya wasn't something to be enthusiastic about. Xander of all people deserved better (no matter what writers and most fans think).

Third. You see, it's kinda hard for me to imagine someone like Xander peacefully chatting with someone like Spike at the Bronze, let alone telling Captain Peroxide some details considering relations between him, his best friend and his girlfriend. Since when did those two become such a close buddies, huh? It makes even less sence being fully aware 'bout Xander's undisguised disdain towards Spike and Spikey's disregard for his human opponent. You've got no one else to share your problems with, Xander? Hold on, bro. OTOH, there was nothing to worry about. Anya? Never bother with someone who isn't good for ya (forget abot that bitch already!). Willow? I know you guys can work it out (like you always did for nearly fifteen years). 

Once again it was Spike's, you know, sort of destiny, always to be in the right place at right me, no matter what. Whenever and wherever something big happened (especially when Buffy needed help), voila, he was already there. Gang of vamps at the cemetery? Tara's annoying family? Buffy searching for the answers? Creatures from outer space attack? Riley going to the brothel? Idiot troll raising hell? Spikey always came to the rescue. Little by little the Scoobies' lives started revolving around the bleached "goodness" in one way or another

Spoiler

until the vamp stole the show completely in the final season.

 
But that Spikey boy... He was kinda insane, you know. If a "conversation with the mannequin" scene alone doesn't convince you there was something seriously wrong with the guy

Spoiler

even before the First started playing with his minds in the seventh season,

 and his "interest" in Buffy had all the textbook signs of manic obsession, then I don't know what else can.  Spike was a dangerous type with no regard to his "sodding chip" functioning or malfunctioning, period. His continuing unlife posed a threat to everyone around

Spoiler

(which was confirmed in Crush and I Was Made to Love You),

and yet the Scoobs were still too blind to act in a proper way... Then again Spikey demanding credit for not "sampling" the blood of Olaf's victims at The Bronze looked quite disgusting as Buffy herself put it. People do the right thing because it's, you know, the right thing and not in order to get something in return... Spike totally missed it.

Abstracting from Spike, Anya, insanity or individual characters' immature behavior, the ep's chain of events itself lacks logic IMO. First, Willow's spell went wrong and called forth the troll (who later turned out to be Olaf, Anya's former boyfriend). At first the troll guy just roared at Anya (his former girlfriend, who turned him into that creature) and Willow, who was also there, broke some things in the Magic Box and left the shop. Only after hours of wrecking havoc at the streets of Sunnydale and consuming two kegs of beer at The Bronze he finally recognized the bitch, who ruined his life centuries ago. Buffy and Spikey tried to fight Olaf to no avail. Eventually Buffy sent Willow and Anya back to the Magic Box to find a spell against Olaf, while Xander had to search for the big fat troll (but Xander was powerless, remember? How was he supposed to stop the monster, when Buffy wasn't around? Seems like Buffy's tactical decisions haven't improved at all since her attempt to bring "a roomie" into Oz's cage in the previous season).  Then Olaf stormed into the shop with murder on his mind... But why just then? He couldn't beat both girls to death the moment he was freed from the crystal??? Was he too sober to recognize his ex immediately, so it took two kegs of "delicious ale" to refresh the memory?  Weird.

 

Then violence began. And I freakin' cringe every time I recall those scenes. It all started with Olaf grabbing both girls and throwing screaming Willow and Anya over the counter, straight into the merchandise shelves. Olaf was very strong, so the throw had to be strong either. Screw Anya, she was still partly demon and could recuperate quickly (just remember Where the Wild Things Are). But Willow? Witches are still human, aren't they? No blood, no broken bones, no bruises, no nothing. Concussion? What concussion? Apparently Buffy had shared some of her slayer healing mojo during those sappy bonding (was one step away from typing "bondage") scenes from seasons 2 - 4??

After the first weirdness we witnessed there came the next one - that whole bizarre confrontation between Olaf the Troll who was about to have some fun and Xander who arrived trying to save the two most important women in his life. Xander was badly beaten up and it looked more realistic with some  blood on his forehead and mouth (the makeup artist did the job with NB at least). But then there were several moments I didn't know whether to laugh or cry about. Let me start by quoting the episode's transcript (just to be sure I understood what I saw correctly). 1) "Olaf hits Xander in the face with the hammer and Xander flies across the room, smashes into a wall. He gets up. Olaf watches him". 2) "Xander runs forward and punches Olaf. He lifts his arm to punch again but Olaf grabs his arm with one hand, uses the other hand to hit Xander in the head with his hammer. Xander goes down. Olaf reaches down and grabs the back of Xander's jacket and slides Xander across the floor. He crashes into another display case, gets to his feet again as Olaf laughs". So how do you like it, brothers and sisters? Do you really believe someone could simply get to his feet again after receiving such blows (in the face and in the head)?? Traumatic brain injuries? Do they even exist in the Buffyverse??? Well, I would totally understand if it was, say, Buffy's or Angel's, or Spike's, or Faith's head. But Xander??? And he didn't even faint!!!

Spoiler

Keep in mind that Olaf's hammer turned out to be the same weapon Buffy used to defeat Glory, the Big Bad, in the season's finale. The weapon that hurt freakin' goddess, but did no serious damage to the ordinary human? Weird, really weird...

  Xander's only injury appeared to be his broken right wrist... Dunno what to think actually. Either Xander wasn't the one he seemed to be (everyman with no super powers) during four previous seasons, or someone in the writing staff decided that sucking and bad plot twists were no longer a cons for a popular TV show. You tell me. I rest my case here.

Spoiler

The only good thing about Olaf was his accurate prediction regarding the future of Xanya. The bad thing was however that it took that long to put an end to one of the worst Buffyverse relationships IMO.

8/10?? Sorry, nowhere near...

Edited September 21, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

2 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

I really can't either stand or accept Buffy's "They have a miraculous love!" shit concerning Xanya. What exactly was so "miraculous" about their "love"?

Well, the fact that anyone could call it "love" with a straight face, of course. ;)

2 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

 

Spoiler

Hide contents

Keep in mind that Olaf's hammer turned out to be the same weapon Buffy used to defeat Glory, the Big Bad, in the season's finale. The weapon that hurt freakin' goddess, but did no serious damage to the ordinary human? Weird, really weird...

 

Spoiler

And that Anya promptly retcons Olaf into a "troll god".  FFS, wench, he's your ex-husband.  Stop trying to make yourself look like a bigshot by association.

Edited September 21, 2018 by Halting Hex

[Jack Shaftoe]

I like the episode. Yes, it's sitcom-ish but not too reliant on dumb OOC hijinks. Willow calling out Anya is rather fun: "Hey Anya, whatever really has you mad, why don't you just say it, like you do every other thought that stomps through your brain?". And then there is "Anya, I have faith in you. There is no one you cannot piss off".

Tara actually has a long scene without Willow present.

Of course, it has its share late season-isms, like Buffy discussing Riley's departure with Dawn of all people, instead of Willow, Spike and Xander's quasi-friendship, Buffy whining about Xanya's miraculous love, etc.

[Joe Hellandback]

18 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Today let's start with the good. Buffy living in a nunnery? Why not? I think this could be really good for her, since she obviously didn't like the life she lived. Walk this way, Buffy. Let the others carry on the fight (people survived livin' on the Hellmouth for a long time before Buffy arrived in 1997 after all).

  Hide contents

I still have a dream to write a piece of fanfiction about Faith, disappointed with her life of constant violence and debauchery, ending up retiring to some Catholic convent after completing her mission of saving the world.

 
So I dare say the convent life won't be all bad for our blonde Slayer.

  Hide contents

In fact saying vows would have been 1000 times more preferable in B's case than turning into Spikey's "love bitch", but JMO.

Once again kudos to Xander for not yielding to Olaf's provocation and not bowing to much stronger opponent. His eagerness to sacrifice his own life when his loved ones were in danger can be only appreciated (he was much more than he seemed to be, no doubt about it). Although it wouldn't be that bad if he had chosen Anya in response to the troll's request (but most people will probably disagree with me).

As much as I love the idea of Willow/Anya bitter rivalry (especially when it came to Xander), I prefer seeing both of them acting like a mature women, not some 12-year-olds (although I realize that Anya and maturity are two totally opposite concepts). It is my firm belief that Willow still had a thing for her lifelong friend (she might learn to hide it a lot better and sorry, Tara, no place for you here).

  Reveal hidden contents

The way she reacted on X/A falling out scene in Flooded and after hearing Xander announcing his engagement to Anya in All the Way proved Willow wasn't too happy about Xander chosing his own little road to ruin. After all she didn't judge Xander when he reconsidered his decision later (Hell's Bells, Normal Again) and began to tolerate Anya more when it became obvious she won't be Mrs. Harris.

The conversation between Willow and Anya, while both were searching for the anti-troll spell at the Magic Box, was one of the few moments in the ep that I liked either. Though Willow's willingness to give in to Anya regarding Xander disappointed yours truly considerably, while very few things in the whole show sounded equally unconvincing as Anya's assurance 'bout never hurting Xander (ain't gonna buy it, demon lady, so don't try).

Oh Willow, please, do it again, do it again! Say what you will, but I do love the idea of Willow "poisoning" Xander's mind against Anya, or luring him away with her "lips". And don't try to tell me it would be bad, 'cause it wouldn't.

Now the bad. Three things I dislike the most about that ep. First. It would be much better to let Xander say something more in regard to two most important women in his life and what they mean to him IMO (instead of wasting Xander's rhetoric on his "passionate" speech regarding B/R relationship and that useless pre-coital monologue in the previous ep). Second. I really can't either stand or accept Buffy's "They have a miraculous love!" shit concerning Xanya. What exactly was so "miraculous" about their "love"? Both of them liking Xander's penis? The thrill of fucking while listening to Anya's gruesome stories? The BDSM thing? And look who's talking - Buffy Summers, the renowned expert on all things love-related (the one who had screwed her own love life in the previos episode). And while Willow was engaged in the childish exchange with Anya at the MB, Buffy found a new, Tara-shaped shoulder to cry on 

  Reveal hidden contents

(some foreshadowing of crying in Tara's lap over fucking with Spike in the following season, I guess).

Well, I understand there are people who care about their friends and want them to be happy, and be loved, and have stable relationships, yada yada (since the aforementioned people themselves usually do not succeed when it comes to love). Some of us tend to be obsessed with others' happiness, because when we fail, sometimes we desperately want the others to succeed (instead of us) in order to meet our expectations. Nothing wrong with that, I guess. It's just that romance with Anya wasn't something to be enthusiastic about. Xander of all people deserved better (no matter what writers and most fans think).

Third. You see, it's kinda hard for me to imagine someone like Xander peacefully chatting with someone like Spike at the Bronze, let alone telling Captain Peroxide some details considering relations between him, his best friend and his girlfriend. Since when did those two become such a close buddies, huh? It makes even less sence being fully aware 'bout Xander's undisguised disdain towards Spike and Spikey's disregard for his human opponent. You've got no one else to share your problems with, Xander? Hold on, bro. OTOH, there was nothing to worry about. Anya? Never bother with someone who isn't good for ya (forget abot that bitch already!). Willow? I know you guys can work it out (like you always did for nearly fifteen years). 

Once again it was Spike's, you know, sort of destiny, always to be in the right place at right me, no matter what. Whenever and wherever something big happened (especially when Buffy needed help), voila, he was already there. Gang of vamps at the cemetery? Tara's annoying family? Buffy searching for the answers? Creatures from outer space attack? Riley going to the brothel? Idiot troll raising hell? Spikey always came to the rescue. Little by little the Scoobies' lives started revolving around the bleached "goodness" in one way or another

  Reveal hidden contents

until the vamp stole the show completely in the final season.

 
But that Spikey boy... He was kinda insane, you know. If a "conversation with the mannequin" scene alone doesn't convince you there was something seriously wrong with the guy

  Reveal hidden contents

even before the First started playing with his minds in the seventh season,

 and his "interest" in Buffy had all the textbook signs of manic obsession, then I don't know what else can.  Spike was a dangerous type with no regard to his "sodding chip" functioning or malfunctioning, period. His continuing unlife posed a threat to everyone around

  Reveal hidden contents

(which was confirmed in Crush and I Was Made to Love You),

and yet the Scoobs were still too blind to act in a proper way... Then again Spikey demanding credit for not "sampling" the blood of Olaf's victims at The Bronze looked quite disgusting as Buffy herself put it. People do the right thing because it's, you know, the right thing and not in order to get something in return... Spike totally missed it.

Abstracting from Spike, Anya, insanity or individual characters' immature behavior, the ep's chain of events itself lacks logic IMO. First, Willow's spell went wrong and called forth the troll (who later turned out to be Olaf, Anya's former boyfriend). At first the troll guy just roared at Anya (his former girlfriend, who turned him into that creature) and Willow, who was also there, broke some things in the Magic Box and left the shop. Only after hours of wrecking havoc at the streets of Sunnydale and consuming two kegs of beer at The Bronze he finally recognized the bitch, who ruined his life centuries ago. Buffy and Spikey tried to fight Olaf to no avail. Eventually Buffy sent Willow and Anya back to the Magic Box to find a spell against Olaf, while Xander had to search for the big fat troll (but Xander was powerless, remember? How was he supposed to stop the monster, when Buffy wasn't around? Seems like Buffy's tactical decisions haven't improved at all since her attempt to bring "a roomie" into Oz's cage in the previous season).  Then Olaf stormed into the shop with murder on his mind... But why just then? He couldn't beat both girls to death the moment he was freed from the crystal??? Was he too sober to recognize his ex immediately, so it took two kegs of "delicious ale" to refresh the memory?  Weird.

 

Then violence began. And I freakin' cringe every time I recall those scenes. It all started with Olaf grabbing both girls and throwing screaming Willow and Anya over the counter, straight into the merchandise shelves. Olaf was very strong, so the throw had to be strong either. Screw Anya, she was still partly demon and could recuperate quickly (just remember Where the Wild Things Are). But Willow? Witches are still human, aren't they? No blood, no broken bones, no bruises, no nothing. Concussion? What concussion? Apparently Buffy had shared some of her slayer healing mojo during those sappy bonding (was one step away from typing "bondage") scenes from seasons 2 - 4??

After the first weirdness we witnessed there came the next one - that whole bizarre confrontation between Olaf the Troll who was about to have some fun and Xander who arrived trying to save the two most important women in his life. Xander was badly beaten up and it looked more realistic with some  blood on his forehead and mouth (the makeup artist did the job with NB at least). But then there were several moments I didn't know whether to laugh or cry about. Let me start by quoting the episode's transcript (just to be sure I understood what I saw correctly). 1) "Olaf hits Xander in the face with the hammer and Xander flies across the room, smashes into a wall. He gets up. Olaf watches him". 2) "Xander runs forward and punches Olaf. He lifts his arm to punch again but Olaf grabs his arm with one hand, uses the other hand to hit Xander in the head with his hammer. Xander goes down. Olaf reaches down and grabs the back of Xander's jacket and slides Xander across the floor. He crashes into another display case, gets to his feet again as Olaf laughs". So how do you like it, brothers and sisters? Do you really believe someone could simply get to his feet again after receiving such blows (in the face and in the head)?? Traumatic brain injuries? Do they even exist in the Buffyverse??? Well, I would totally understand if it was, say, Buffy's or Angel's, or Spike's, or Faith's head. But Xander??? And he didn't even faint!!!

  Reveal hidden contents

Keep in mind that Olaf's hammer turned out to be the same weapon Buffy used to defeat Glory, the Big Bad, in the season's finale. The weapon that hurt freakin' goddess, but did no serious damage to the ordinary human? Weird, really weird...

  Xander's only injury appeared to be his broken right wrist... Dunno what to think actually. Either Xander wasn't the one he seemed to be (everyman with no super powers) during four previous seasons, or someone in the writing staff decided that sucking and bad plot twists were no longer a cons for a popular TV show. You tell me. I rest my case here.

  Reveal hidden contents

The only good thing about Olaf was his accurate prediction regarding the future of Xanya. The bad thing was however that it took that long to put an end to one of the worst Buffyverse relationships IMO.

8/10?? Sorry, nowhere near...

Faith and Buffy TOGETHER in a nunnery might be interesting? Or in prison?   

Yes, the whole Troll Hammer does take a bit of a liberty but look at some of the stuff the Scoobs walk away from in the series, Giles' concussion for instance. Personally I like the Xander/Spike scenes ,shows how each is quietly desperate for male company. Part of the humour is the incongruity of unsouled Spike just not getting human behaviour and never will. 

16 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Well, the fact that anyone could call it "love" with a straight face, of course. ;)

  Hide contents

And that Anya promptly retcons Olaf into a "troll god".  FFS, wench, he's your ex-husband.  Stop trying to make yourself look like a bigshot by association.

Maybe she turned him into a Troll God or he rose to that position? I suppose Olaf was just going easy on Xander who amused him?

15 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

I like the episode. Yes, it's sitcom-ish but not too reliant on dumb OOC hijinks. Willow calling out Anya is rather fun: "Hey Anya, whatever really has you mad, why don't you just say it, like you do every other thought that stomps through your brain?". And then there is "Anya, I have faith in you. There is no one you cannot piss off".

Tara actually has a long scene without Willow present.

Of course, it has its share late season-isms, like Buffy discussing Riley's departure with Dawn of all people, instead of Willow, Spike and Xander's quasi-friendship, Buffy whining about Xanya's miraculous love, etc.

Yeah, I quite like it when Tara isn't just an adjunct for Willow, nice to see her interact with other characters. Of course Buffy shares her pain with Dawn, she's the closest person to her. 

[Halting Hex]

On 9/22/2018 at 3:15 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

Of course Buffy shares her pain with Dawn, she's the closest person to her. 

This is subject to dispute, since Buffy has shared her relationship issues before with Willow, with Giles, and even with Xander (Phases).  And there's the argument that you don't want to diminish those characters by giving this scene to Dawn.

But looked at from the opposite perspective, it makes plenty of sense.  Buffy had made an effort to include Riley in Dawn's life…and now he won't be.  It's only natural that Buffy should have a "why Riley won't around any more" talk with the little sister who might miss him, too.

[Melancholy]

IMO, Buffy develops a psychological failing in S5 where she stops sharing her feelings as much as before because it's somehow gotten into her head that sharing is "weak" or "selfish" or "immature." Buffy actually strives to bottle up her emotions from S5 on like it's a virtue. Heck in this episode, she was playing at being the emotional, over-sharer to Giles to sarcastically put that down. IMO, Buffy feels like she can talk to Dawn more because she parse those discussions as important to nurturing Dawn or giving Dawn clarity. Meanwhile, Buffy can't parse discussing her relationships with her friends as anything other than Buffy "indulging" herself. 

It's a pretty big problem. The early season very successfully show Buffy as a very feminine hero. Some of that is miniskirts and shiny blonde hair but more importantly, Buffy was generally able to cope with the stresses of life because she was doing the psychologically healthy thing and talking out her problems. This put Buffy as far less risk for stupid miscommunications or disposable, constantly shifting sidekicks or suicidal ideation than a "strong n' silent" male character with her life. In S1-4, Buffy does have these instincts to be the Strong Silent Hero but it's generally not how she lives her life. in S5, it does become how she lives her life. 

It's not entirely clear why Buffy became such a "bottler of emotions" in S5. It does feel Monks of Mindfuck influenced to me. 

Spoiler

I do cling to how Buffy ended up in a coma largely because she was unhealthily and silently dealing with her emotions. Thus, Buffy’s chosen silence all season became a silence forced upon Buffy through a coma. Willow, in particular, had to get into her head to force Buffy to talk it out so Buffy could be the effective protector for her sister. But S6 craps all over any lesson learned  

[illdoc]

Spoiler

12 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

Buffy ended up in a coma

I think you mean "a catatonic state"---coma you are unconscious. Catatonia you are awake but "unaware/disconnected from your surroundings"

[Joe Hellandback]

15 hours ago, Melancholy said:

IMO, Buffy develops a psychological failing in S5 where she stops sharing her feelings as much as before because it's somehow gotten into her head that sharing is "weak" or "selfish" or "immature." Buffy actually strives to bottle up her emotions from S5 on like it's a virtue. Heck in this episode, she was playing at being the emotional, over-sharer to Giles to sarcastically put that down. IMO, Buffy feels like she can talk to Dawn more because she parse those discussions as important to nurturing Dawn or giving Dawn clarity. Meanwhile, Buffy can't parse discussing her relationships with her friends as anything other than Buffy "indulging" herself. 

It's a pretty big problem. The early season very successfully show Buffy as a very feminine hero. Some of that is miniskirts and shiny blonde hair but more importantly, Buffy was generally able to cope with the stresses of life because she was doing the psychologically healthy thing and talking out her problems. This put Buffy as far less risk for stupid miscommunications or disposable, constantly shifting sidekicks or suicidal ideation than a "strong n' silent" male character with her life. In S1-4, Buffy does have these instincts to be the Strong Silent Hero but it's generally not how she lives her life. in S5, it does become how she lives her life. 

It's not entirely clear why Buffy became such a "bottler of emotions" in S5. It does feel Monks of Mindfuck influenced to me. 

  Hide contents

I do cling to how Buffy ended up in a coma largely because she was unhealthily and silently dealing with her emotions. Thus, Buffy’s chosen silence all season became a silence forced upon Buffy through a coma. Willow, in particular, had to get into her head to force Buffy to talk it out so Buffy could be the effective protector for her sister. But S6 craps all over any lesson learned  

But that's partly because Buffy is growing as a person as she matures from girl to young woman, the semi-isolation aspects of her personality I put more down to her Slayer side forcing her in that direction.  

[Halting Hex]

On 9/21/2018 at 5:18 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

some lovely Buffy/Dawn bed scenes

If you don't want people to remember that you read (too much of?) that kind of fanfic, you might look for a better phrasing ;)

Besides, it's only one "bed scene".  A quickie, if you will. ;)

Meantime, having referred to Olaf as Anya's "ex-husband" up thread, I'm wondering if that's actually true.  Does trollification automatically constitute divorce?  I'm not saying one of them might not have grounds for an abandonment claim (it has been 1100 years, after all), but have those bonds ever actually been legally severed?

Spoiler

Maybe it wasn't so much Stuart Burns's fake "visions" that stopped Xander from going through with it in Hell's Belles, but a potential bigamy charge?  Perhaps not, but still…

[Halting Hex]

On 9/21/2018 at 11:06 AM, lembergwatcher said:

I really can't either stand or accept Buffy's "They have a miraculous love!" shit concerning Xanya. What exactly was so "miraculous" about their "love"?

What's even more bizarro is that I just watched Shan's video for Into the Woods and I'm reminded that Buffy was just tearing Xander a new one for treating Anya like a toy the episode before.  Hell of a U-turn, Buffster.

I get perhaps that with Riley having choppered away, Buffy might be seeing any successful relationship as "miraculous", but it still feels like rather an oversell.

And it is true that, after Buffy called him out for finding Anya "convenient", Xander went to Anya's place and gave her a very nice speech about how he was deeply and sincerely in love with her.  (David Hines didn't believe this; he called it "telling, not showing".  But let's go with it, for argument's sake.)  One problem…Buffy wasn't there to hear the speech.  So it shouldn't have affected her perception of Xanya, should it?

Although I guess Xander could have given Buffy a recap of his speech.  (Hell of a thing for him to do while she's in deep Riley-brood, but maybe he was trying to cheer her up by saying she inspired him to open up, or something.)

Spoiler

 And we do see that Xander later on will pretty much bore Buffy and Dawn to death by giving the Summers girls a summer's worth of "yellow crayon" stories.  Maybe that's his "new thing"?  Maybe Warren!Willow was rather nasty to Xander in The Killer in Me because she'd gotten sick of hearing about Oz and his Wolfy Mojo when Xander was doing reruns of the  "I'm a secret hero" speech he'd given Dawn in Potential, again and again?  Maybe everyone turns on Buffy in Empty Places because Xander primed the pump by going "she's earned your trust" a good dozen times, before he landed in the hospital?

But it still seems rather forced, IMO.

Edited November 27, 2018 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

29 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

And it is true that, after Buffy called him out for finding Anya "convenient", Xander went to Anya's place and gave her a very nice speech about how he was deeply and sincerely in love with her.

Well, pure and simple "I love you" in Becoming, Part 2 sounds stronger and 1000 times more sincere than anything Xander ever told Anya. And I'd like to think he wasn't totally sincere with his hellbitch. I refuse to believe Xander was that blind to be really in love with the psychotic mass murderer. I skipped that speech entirely those few times I re-watched the ep. The speech itself would have been nice if only it was addressed to some other person.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎27‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 5:59 PM, Halting Hex said:

What's even more bizarro is that I just watched Shan's video for Into the Woods and I'm reminded that Buffy was just tearing Xander a new one for treating Anya like a toy the episode before.  Hell of a U-turn, Buffster.

I get perhaps that with Riley having choppered away, Buffy might be seeing any successful relationship as "miraculous", but it still feels like rather an oversell.

And it is true that, after Buffy called him out for finding Anya "convenient", Xander went to Anya's place and gave her a very nice speech about how he was deeply and sincerely in love with her.  (David Hines didn't believe this; he called it "telling, not showing".  But let's go with it, for argument's sake.)  One problem…Buffy wasn't there to hear the speech.  So it shouldn't have affected her perception of Xanya, should it?

Although I guess Xander could have given Buffy a recap of his speech.  (Hell of a thing for him to do while she's in deep Riley-brood, but maybe he was trying to cheer her up by saying she inspired him to open up, or something.)

  Hide contents

 And we do see that Xander later on will pretty much bore Buffy and Dawn to death by giving the Summers girls a summer's worth of "yellow crayon" stories.  Maybe that's his "new thing"?  Maybe Warren!Willow was rather nasty to Xander in The Killer in Me because she'd gotten sick of hearing about Oz and his Wolfy Mojo when Xander was doing reruns of the  "I'm a secret hero" speech he'd given Dawn in Potential, again and again?  Maybe everyone turns on Buffy in Empty Places because Xander primed the pump by going "she's earned your trust" a good dozen times, before he landed in the hospital?

But it still seems rather forced, IMO.

Give the X man a break! He's only human and that's the whole point! The miraculous love speech is played strictly for laughs but I buy it, Buffy is in a vulnerable place right now. 

[lembergwatcher]

Quote

WILLOW: I'm trying. Put the top up, the pages are all blowy!
ANYA: Well, I don't know how to put the top up, I only just figured out what the left pedal does. (turns to smile at Willow) It makes us stop!

Anya slams on the brake and they slow down with a screech. Willow grabs the side of the car for balance. Anya resumes driving.

WILLOW: You don't know how to drive? Why didn't you say you don't know how to drive?
ANYA: Well, I couldn't know if I could until I tried, could I?

But she should know how to drive... At least she knew it 35 episodes earlier, in Graduation Day, Part 1.

Quote

Anya: Xander.
Xander: What are you doing here? I thought you'd be in Aruba by now.
Anya: Hey, I'm packed. My car's right outside. I-I just, um, I-I had to, uh...
Xander: What?
Anya: You could come with me.
Xander: Come with you? You mean that?
Anya: Why not? We could just get in the car and drive. No one would miss us. We could take turns driving. Keep each other awake. You're going to die if you stay here.
Xander: I guess I might.

That conversation took place after Anya became human hence we can't link the loss of driving skills with overall loss of powers. Poor Anya... All those blowjobs you constantly gave Xander, they did obliterate your driving ability, didn't they?

[Halting Hex]

Perhaps her power-created persona faded with time?  That's why she wanted to go to the prom in Season 3, but couldn't be bothered to "learn the rules" in Season 5?

Either that, or Jane Espenson's a hack who couldn't research Anya's previous appearances to see if they contradicted her joke here and there was nobody keeping a "show bible" to remember such details.

(My "favorite" note along these lines is when there was a magazine profile [in Rolling Stone, perhaps] that talked about the cast doing a table read for the "let's make a combo-Buffy!" scene in Primeval  and Xander has this line:

Quote

XANDER (to Buffy): See what you get for taking Spanish instead of Sumerian?

Except that Nick Brendon remembered that Buffy [and presumably Willow] was actually studying French in School Hard ["Je stink"] and the line was changed.  

Which, good catch by Nick.  But this shouldn't be his job, ffs.)

[lembergwatcher]

Also, isn't W/A "fight" too childish for Xander to freak out and start spilling his guts to, you know, Spike?

And if I had to describe Anya in one sentence, that sentence would be: "Anya is a kind of girl you cannot recognize unless you drink a whole keg of beer".

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎15‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 1:56 AM, lembergwatcher said:

Also, isn't W/A "fight" too childish for Xander to freak out and start spilling his guts to, you know, Spike?

And if I had to describe Anya in one sentence, that sentence would be: "Anya is a kind of girl you cannot recognize unless you drink a whole keg of beer".

He needed some guy time and Spike was all there was left. 

On ‎14‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 7:37 PM, lembergwatcher said:

But she should know how to drive... At least she knew it 35 episodes earlier, in Graduation Day, Part 1.

That conversation took place after Anya became human hence we can't link the loss of driving skills with overall loss of powers. Poor Anya... All those blowjobs you constantly gave Xander, they did obliterate your driving ability, didn't they?

Let's apply Occam's razor, Anya rented a car with a driver, that's what she means in Graduation Day. 

[lembergwatcher]

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Let's apply Occam's razor, Anya rented a car with a driver, that's what she means in Graduation Day. 

Anya's own words do not imply any third person in the car:

Quote

We could just get in the car and drive. No one would miss us. We could take turns driving. Keep each other awake.

[Halting Hex]

Plus, if Anya had hired a driver, she probably would have spent an excessive amount of time telling Xander all the things the two of them could be doing in the backseat while telling the driver to keep his/her eyes on the road…

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎16‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 1:42 PM, lembergwatcher said:

Anya's own words do not imply any third person in the car:

You're quite right, maybe she rented the car but found out she didn't know how to drive it?