S06.E21: Whatever Remains, However Improbable

[deepthinker]

In the final scene in the brownstone when Sherlock exits and the camera goes back to Joan there's what seems to be a painting on the wall behind and to her right. Is that a clue to the future or just a set decoration?

When Sherlock is interviewing the lord in 221B the window is curved on top and when Sherlock yells at his 'neighbor' it's apparent that this window cannot face the street yet when he goes outside there's no such a window unless it's on a third floor which we can't see.

Sherlock must be living alone in 221B since he had to knock on 221A. If both were living in 221A he would walk right in.

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, deepthinker said:

I remember seeing an interview a few years ago where they stated that but also stated that "anything is possible". In fact they have moved closer to the possibility with the season finale.

I'm not sure I see it that way. They're no closer, in my opinion, than they've ever been, other than the statement of love - which only explicitly states what was always obvious and doesn't necessarily mean romantic love.

[biakbiak]

2 hours ago, deepthinker said:

I remember seeing an interview a few years ago where they stated that but also stated that "anything is possible". In fact they have moved closer to the possibility with the season finale.

That’s not how it read to me or how the show runner intended it to land for the viewer interview after the finale:

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Oh yeah, absolutely. Because that’s what it’s always been. I have lifelong friends that I love like family, and yet it’s not so often I put it to them that way. If I thought it was the last time I was going to see someone I cared about, I think I would say that with great ease. It’s why Sherlock was able to say it in that moment. He really thought it was goodbye, and you don’t walk away from even a platonic relationship without telling your partner how you feel. I wish there was an even more appropriate word than “platonic.” It’s fraternal. There’s great love, and there’s great respect, but there’s no romance.

Edited September 23, 2018 by biakbiak

[atlantaloves]

But but but, who is taking care of Sherlock's precious bees?  I know you all are worried about Clyde, but let's think of the little bees too. 

[paigow]

6 minutes ago, atlantaloves said:

But but but, who is taking care of Sherlock's precious bees? 

The dude from "Everyone" that needs to watch bee porn......

[andromeda331]

Hey whatever happened to the roosters? Richard Kind mentioned them in his episode as one of the reasons he moved out and turned his home in an away hotel. So they still had them as of then.

Edited September 23, 2018 by andromeda331

[basil]

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"She was more than just Hannah's roommate, she was her best friend!" Good lord, why wouldn't they just pull the obvious trigger on that????

Quote

It wasn't fear.  It was symmetry.  Hannah did what she did to avenge her best friend.  Sherlock was trying to get evidence about Hannah to save Joan, his best friend.  Platonic love is a thing on this show and is as powerful as other kinds of love.  And that's okay.

Yeah, Gregson's line, while obviously a set up for Holmes to fling back at him during their final exchange:

Gregson: "She's my daughter!"

Holmes: "She's my best friend."

didn't play the way they wanted it to. This show, with a transwoman (Miss Hudson), and at least a few gay characterse, including Alastair and Crabtree, clearly isn't afraid of going there. I think Gay was my favorite. Holmes finds a woman he does not know in the brownstone:

Holmes : "I was expecting to find my... housemate.

"Gay : "No problem. I'm Gay."

Holmes : " ...I'm not.

"Gay : "It's my name."

Holmes ".Yes, of course. I'm Sherlock."

Gay : "Hello"

[pause] 

Gay : "Ialso am. Gay. So, you know, it saves time"

Holmes :"How efficient."

Edited September 24, 2018 by basil

[Ailianna]

Maybe they wanted to avoid the cliche of a lesbian being murdered or being the murderer/bad guy.  This show has treated its non-heterosexual characters as real people with identities outside their sexuality, but perhaps wanted to avoid going the route of a long-standing negative stereotype of lesbians.

[basil]

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Maybe they wanted to avoid the cliche of a lesbian being murdered or being the murderer/bad guy.  This show has treated its non-heterosexual characters as real people with identities outside their sexuality, but perhaps wanted to avoid going the route of a long-standing negative stereotype of lesbians.

The "long-standing negative stereotype of lesbians" being murdered by serial killers? ;) Seriously, though, I do get what you're saying. As you say, the show has done so well in representing non-hetero characters matter of factly, but lesbians and gay men get murdered too (wasn't Crabtree a murder victim?}

It just seemed so silly to have Gregson say "She was more than just Hannah's roommate, she was...' dun dun DUN! ...her best friend"??? So anti-climactic.

[CaptainCranky]

On 9/23/2018 at 11:07 AM, Clanstarling said:

I'm not sure I see it that way. They're no closer, in my opinion, than they've ever been, other than the statement of love - which only explicitly states what was always obvious and doesn't necessarily mean romantic love.

I agree 100%. It's platonic and about trust and respect.

[shapeshifter]

8 hours ago, basil said:

It just seemed so silly to have Gregson say "She was more than just Hannah's roommate, she was...' dun dun DUN! ...her best friend"??? So anti-climactic.

Yes. The line probably generated thought balloons of "Seriously?" over the entire audience's heads.
And while I'm of the symmetry-with-Sherlock-and-Watson reason for making Hannah and her roommate best friends,
I also have living on the other side of my apartment wall a late-twenties guy with his mom; he regularly has his best boyfriend spend the night in a bedroom whose uninsulated window is kitty-cornered from mine, but his mom still persists in telling me that he has a girlfriend who lives out of town. So maybe Gregson is like my neighbor.

Edited September 24, 2018 by shapeshifter

[paigow]

13 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I also have living on the other side of my apartment wall a late-twenties guy with his mom; he regularly has his best boyfriend spend the night in a bedroom whose uninsulated window is kitty-cornered from mine, but his mom still persists in telling me that he has a girlfriend who lives out of town. So maybe Gregson is like my neighbor.

Is Denial a river in Manhattan?

[CaptainCranky]

I don't think most of us appreciate how good this show is. After watching about 15 minutes of the new Magnum PI last night which is another mindless CBS action show that borders on insipid I came away with a better appreciation of Elementary.

[jhlipton]

On 9/24/2018 at 8:00 AM, basil said:

The "long-standing negative stereotype of lesbians" being murdered by serial killers? ;)

The problem was of Hannah being a lesbian murderer, not her roommate/BFF.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, CaptainCranky said:

I don't think most of us appreciate how good this show is. After watching about 15 minutes of the new Magnum PI last night which is another mindless CBS action show that borders on insipid I came away with a better appreciation of Elementary.

While Elementary might pale in comparison to the best seasons of, say, True Detective or Fargo, and maybe even in comparison to any season of, say, The Closer, Elementary is, I agree, a cut above most—if not all—major network programming.

[basil]

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The problem was of Hannah being a lesbian murderer, not her roommate/BFF.

Huh. I didn't know that was a thing. It didn't even cross my mind (and in any case, she would have been a bisexual murderer).

Still, I stand by what I've said. Hannah's entrance into their apartment to find her BFF dead could not have been more "Hey, honey, I'm home" if it tried. and it was absurd to have Gregson say  "She was more than just Hannah's roommate..." and not follow it up with "she was her wife [lover, girlfriend, etc]".

[HawaiiTVGuy]

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As far as Sherlock and Joan getting set up in the UK, remember that MI-6 spun a bullshit story, but it was a very effective bit of bullshit.  Essentially MI-6 cast Sherlock as killing Michael to remove/prevent a threat to British national security.  So, Britain wouldn't extradite Sherlock to face those charges in the any more than the US would extradite to Pakistan those member of Seal Team 6 who iced bin Laden. 

I couldn't quite hear Sherlock's exposition.  So what exactly was his confession that allowed him a pass back home?

[Trey]

He confessed to killing Michael because Michael was a threat to UK security.  MI6 owed Sherlock 'bigtime' so he made them accept the confession and the made-up reason so he couldn't be extradited to the US, and to get him in good with Scotland Yard. 

[Vermicious Knid]

I'd really love to hear the justification they'd have to come up with if asked what, exactly, was threatened.

[HawaiiTVGuy]

18 hours ago, Trey said:

He confessed to killing Michael because Michael was a threat to UK security.  MI6 owed Sherlock 'bigtime' so he made them accept the confession and the made-up reason so he couldn't be extradited to the US, and to get him in good with Scotland Yard. 

So the US government agreed to let him leave but never come back because an ally requested it and the victim was a serial killer?  

When I first heard from the FBI agent he had confessed, I thought he did it in the safety of the UK Embassy or the UK.  Then it would be a little more realistic.  I mean the US government wouldn't push too hard about it on an international diplomacy level considering the victim.

[Ailianna]

2 hours ago, HawaiiTVGuy said:

So the US government agreed to let him leave but never come back because an ally requested it and the victim was a serial killer?  

When I first heard from the FBI agent he had confessed, I thought he did it in the safety of the UK Embassy or the UK.  Then it would be a little more realistic.  I mean the US government wouldn't push too hard about it on an international diplomacy level considering the victim.

He did.  He confessed through the UK embassy, not directly to the police.

[johntfs]

16 hours ago, Ailianna said:

He did.  He confessed through the UK embassy, not directly to the police.

He confessed through the U.K. embassy in the U.S. after he had left the U.S. and arrived in the U.K.

[rainsmom]

8 hours ago, johntfs said:

He confessed through the U.K. embassy in the U.S. after he had left the U.S. and arrived in the U.K.

Um, not unless he made a shockingly fast flight to England, confessed, and then flew back to say goodbye to Joan, and then flew out again. 

[shapeshifter]

24 minutes ago, rainsmom said:

9 hours ago, johntfs said:

He confessed through the U.K. embassy in the U.S. after he had left the U.S. and arrived in the U.K.

Um, not unless he made a shockingly fast flight to England, confessed, and then flew back to say goodbye to Joan, and then flew out again. 

I really have no idea how it happened, but the grounds of the UK embassy in the US are legally UK territory, right? (At least that's what I've gleaned from L&O.)

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

I really have no idea how it happened, but the grounds of the UK embassy in the US are legally UK territory, right? (At least that's what I've gleaned from L&O.)

I think it's more complicated than that, but it works as a broadstroke overview. Of course, the Embassy is in DC, but there is a consulate in New York.

[theatremouse]

The FBI were under the impression he had confessed while already in the UK. He was not actually in the UK at the time but MI-6 not only went with the lie that he'd killed Michael as an op for them, but also that he was already back in London. That's why we got the scene of the FBI telling Joan that he'd confessed AND that he was gone. But then Joan found him after (at which point he was supposed to already be in the UK but was not) and she knew what really went down, and then he left the country on a private plane. Unclear whether it was Morland's or MI-6's, but officially MI-6 was claiming he was already across the pond well before he was.

[possibilities]

On 9/26/2018 at 7:59 AM, jhlipton said:

The problem was of Hannah being a lesbian murderer, not her roommate/BFF.

But if Hannah had been lovers with the murder victim, it would have been a lesbian who was murdered. Or a bi woman. In a two woman relationship where one is murdered, that's a lesbian (or bi woman) who got murdered, whether or not the murderer was also a lesbian (or bi).

A few years ago there was an analysis of the number of lesbian characters killed on tv and it was SHOCKINGLY higher than any other group.

Edited September 30, 2018 by possibilities

[shapeshifter]

6 hours ago, possibilities said:

But if Hannah had been lovers with the murder victim, it would have been a lesbian who was murdered. Or a bi woman. In a two woman relationship where one is murdered, that's a lesbian (or bi woman) who got murdered, whether or not the murderer was also a lesbian (or bi).

A few years ago there was an analysis of the number of lesbian characters killed on tv and it was SHOCKINGLY higher than any other group.

 

*shapeshifter dons her academic librarian hat*
According to most recent data (glaad.org/files/WWAT/WWAT_GLAAD_2016-2017.pdf page 6) that hasn't changed:

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While much improvement has been made and TV remains incredibly far ahead of film in terms of LGBTQ representation, it must be made clear that television – and broadcast series more specifically - failed queer women this year as character after character was killed. This is especially disappointing as this very report just last year called on broadcast content creators to do better by lesbian and bisexual women after superflous deaths on Chicago Fire and Supernatural. This continues a decades- long trend of killing LGBTQ characters – often solely to further a straight, cisgender character’s plotline – which sends a dangerous message to audiences. . . .

So, having Hannah and her roommate not being gay actually supports GLAAD's request to not create lesbian characters for the sole purpose of killing them off in support of straight characters' stories —albeit with what looks like some awkward, last minute editing.

Edited September 30, 2018 by shapeshifter

[Driad]

Looking for a summary of this episode, to catch up before season 7 starts.  The sites I found have a sentence at most.  Is there a longer one somewhere? 

[dargosmydaddy]

5 hours ago, Driad said:

Looking for a summary of this episode, to catch up before season 7 starts.  The sites I found have a sentence at most.  Is there a longer one somewhere? 

Try this: https://cbselementary.fandom.com/wiki/Whatever_Remains,_However_Improbable

And this is more of a review than a recap, but goes into some depth: https://tv.avclub.com/elementary-tries-out-an-ending-with-hope-for-whatever-1829128698