S02.E08: Into the Deep

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Cora does everything in her power to steal the compass away from Mary Margaret and Emma in her quest to find the entrance to Storybrooke. Meanwhile, in order to protect Henry from further danger, Regina and Mr. Gold must put David’s life in jeopardy in an attempt to put him in contact with Mary Margaret across the lands to give her vital information that could help her and Emma return through the portal back to Storybrooke.

[companionenvy]

This refers to both episodes for this week, but I'm posting here because the points I'm making are fundamentally related.

Child of the Moon is a pretty disposable episode, but it has the dubious distinction of, IMO, offering our first instance of Regina's victims responding to her in a totally unrealistic way: the scene where Regina is babysitting Henry, evidently at Charming's request.

I noted in the thread for "We are Both" that I totally buy that Charming would see Regina as someone who is not an immediate threat to Henry's physical well-being, which is why he doesn't go into Defcon five when Regina kidnaps him. That's legitimate. Probably he should at least have made an attempt to imprison her early in the season, but as by the time the dust clears, she's already got enough magic back for that to probably be a losing battle, that is kind of understandable as well. But even though Regina is, at this point, showing some willingness to help Charming, it is utterly nonsensical and trivializing to suggest that mere days or, if we're being generous, a couple of weeks after the curse breaks, Charming is going to invite a mass-murdering tyrant who has made multiple credible efforts to kill him, his wife, and his daughter to babysit his grandson. A grandson who she has abused, and who she would have killed (albeit accidentally) if not for the TLK. That is simply not something I can even fanwank into a normal human reaction. In a situation of extreme duress, in which there was literally no one else who could protect Henry from something? Maybe. If Henry had requested to spend time with Regina? Again, maybe. But not in the way it happens here.

"Into the Deep" makes matters worse. I know that Charming thinks that Snow will be able to TLK him out of the sleeping curse, but he knows there's a risk involved. The fact that he is going under a sleeping curse with no one monitoring him -- and no one to watch Henry if something goes wrong -- except for Regina and Rumple is insane. Beyond any concern for Henry,Charming should be worried that Regina is planning on using the cover of the sleeping curse going wrong to murder him without raising Henry's suspicions. 

Then, of course, there is Snow telling Emma that if they want to play the blame game, none of this wouldn't have happened if she hadn't told Cora Regina's secret. Which on some level is true, in the same way if, G-d forbid, a loved one died in a car accident while coming to pick you up from the airport, you might feel intensely guilty despite not having done anything wrong. But I don't think the show is presenting it that way - certainly not in conjunction with what came after, and not even in conjunction with a couple of earlier moments, like flashback Snow's admission to Charming in S1 that she did ruin Regina's life, or Snow's nonsensical claim to Emma that Cora is worse than Regina (which may actually be the case, but shouldn't be from Snow's perspective). In that context, it comes off as something closer to an abused spouse or child claiming that it is really their own fault that their husband/father hit them, because they had done x or y to make him angry first.

At least this time around, Emma throws out a "blame Regina." But for the most part, these episodes are part of the process of something that is less a redemption than an absurd normalization of Regina's presence as anything but an antagonist or, at best, deeply distrusted and even hated ally-of-convenience. In the latter capacity, she might be able to earn something more if she stays on the straight and narrow, but only after she's done a lot more to establish credibility. 

[KingOfHearts]

34 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

At least this time around, Emma throws out a "blame Regina."

That conversation between Emma and Snow was bizarre because the writers were obviously trying to set up something with it.

Spoiler

But when Emma and Snow get home, Emma gives Regina a benefit of a doubt. She goes from "let's blame to Regina" to "we should invite her to the homecoming party". The conversation seems to set up that she'll see that Regina gets consequences for her actions when she gets back to Storybrooke. But that's not what happens. She doesn't go after Regina until there's arguably irrefutable evidence she killed Archie. And even then, she just kinds of gives up on caring once Regina goes into hiding. After The Cricket Game, she had little if any opinion of Regina because they went on different plot threads. Then of course, in the finale, Emma helps her save the day and everything is totes gucci.

[KingOfHearts]

47 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

But even though Regina is, at this point, showing some willingness to help Charming, it is utterly nonsensical and trivializing to suggest that mere days or, if we're being generous, a couple of weeks after the curse breaks, Charming is going to invite a mass-murdering tyrant who has made multiple credible efforts to kill him, his wife, and his daughter to babysit his grandson

I like Charming and Regina working together to protect Henry and Regina trying to help to show Henry she has changed. But you need a specific context for Charming to trust Regina with Henry. He's surprisingly laissez-faire toward her when just recently he charged into her house with a sword. Mayor Mills as a babysitter? Okay. But the Evil Queen with her magic just days after she imprisoned your grandson and tried to kill you with wallpaper? That just makes no logical sense. Charming doesn't seem to react to Regina or get remotely upset that she separated his family for decades. He has zero reasons to trust her.

Edited September 7, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

3 hours ago, companionenvy said:

But even though Regina is, at this point, showing some willingness to help Charming, it is utterly nonsensical and trivializing to suggest that mere days or, if we're being generous, a couple of weeks after the curse breaks, Charming is going to invite a mass-murdering tyrant who has made multiple credible efforts to kill him, his wife, and his daughter to babysit his grandson. A grandson who she has abused, and who she would have killed (albeit accidentally) if not for the TLK. That is simply not something I can even fanwank into a normal human reaction. In a situation of extreme duress, in which there was literally no one else who could protect Henry from something?

I suspect this is more about logistics than about story logic. Henry is necessary in all this because he's the one who's been seeing Aurora in the Red Room. Regina is somewhat necessary because she's the one who'll make another sleeping curse (though I guess they could have cut her out and had Rumple do it, since they're using his stuff) and because she knows enough about magic to recognize something about what's going on. Bringing in someone else unrelated to the story as a babysitter might have been cluttered. It would have made more sense from a character standpoint for David to have had Archie or Granny looking after him -- especially in this episode, now that Granny's not having to worry about Red. But they needed Regina to be involved in this part of the story, so she gets the nod, even though it is hard to believe that she might be trusted here.

I have to say that I probably like Regina more in this episode than I do at any other time in the series. They get to mention that it's her fault that Henry's in this fix, she mentions not caring what happened to her victims and it comes across like they know it's a bad thing, she's genuinely trying to help, and she can't do everything, since she can't heal Henry. She feels like a part of the team. If she'd continued in this mode, she might have worked better for me. Yeah, it's still hard to believe they're even this civil to her, given what she's done, but at this point they do need her and she is helping, so I can buy a temporary truce.

However, I wonder how she knows just how deep the feud between her mother and Rumple goes. All she really knows about is him mentioning her mother when he showed up to help her send Cora through the mirror. And how does Snow know that Rumple will know how to defeat Cora? Is it just a general thing about him knowing how to deal with other magic users? Because Snow keeps knowing way more about Cora than the history we've been shown would have allowed. We saw nothing that showed Snow learning Cora was evil when she was a child. She didn't learn what Cora did to Daniel until much later.

I really rather like them putting David under a sleeping curse because it really raises the stakes. Not only do they need to get back if they want to see their son/grandson again, but if they don't get back, David's stuck in a sleeping curse.

Spoiler

I guess at this point in the show, they hadn't yet cheapened the TLK. Looking at it now, it's no big deal. Some random woman in town could come sit beside him and talk to him until a TLK could work. Or Henry could do a familial TLK. Or Ruby could do an "I believe in you and you've always believed in me" friends TLK. Heck, George could probably do a proxy TLK by thinking about his son, and David is his son's twin. And it's a pity they totally dropped the stuff about the aftermath of the sleeping curse. All that time sleeping close to each other in Neverland, and we never saw David having the nightmares after his time in the curse.

 

3 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Then, of course, there is Snow telling Emma that if they want to play the blame game, none of this wouldn't have happened if she hadn't told Cora Regina's secret. Which on some level is true, in the same way if, G-d forbid, a loved one died in a car accident while coming to pick you up from the airport, you might feel intensely guilty despite not having done anything wrong. But I don't think the show is presenting it that way - certainly not in conjunction with what came after, and not even in conjunction with a couple of earlier moments, like flashback Snow's admission to Charming in S1 that she did ruin Regina's life, or Snow's nonsensical claim to Emma that Cora is worse than Regina

Yeah, I get the impression that the writers really do believe that Snow really is to blame for Daniel's death, that all the torment and the curse might have been overkill, but that Regina is justified in her feelings about Snow, and that's just ridiculous. I think Snow was exaggerating for effect in this episode, but I find it really hard to believe that Daniel would never have been killed if Snow hadn't told Cora. As freaked out as everyone is by the thought of Cora getting to Storybrooke, and as awful and as all-knowing as she was shown to be, can they really believe that Cora wouldn't have figured it out on her own somehow and that Daniel would have been allowed to live? She might even have done worse. Crushing his heart seemed to have been an impulse in that moment, but if she'd figured it out some other way and needed to interfere to make the wedding she wanted happen, she might have done something like she does to Aurora in this episode, ripping out his heart away from Regina and then using it to control him to make him cruelly break up with Regina. And then killing him.

[Camera One]

42 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Crushing his heart seemed to have been an impulse in that moment, but if she'd figured it out some other way and needed to interfere to make the wedding she wanted happen, she might have done something like she does to Aurora in this episode, ripping out his heart away from Regina and then using it to control him to make him cruelly break up with Regina. And then killing him.

This would really have been much smarter.

[KAOS Agent]

This is the episode that had Hook in the rain, right? We need more of that. Yes, I'm on a shallow roll right now. More Wet!Hook, less Snow is to blame nonsense. 

On a separate note, the machinations Cora goes through to steal the compass back make no sense at all. Why can't she just poof to them and poof the compass out of their hands? Rumpel is able to freeze people with magic. Can't Cora do that? Why not? There are no limitations to the magic users on this show except when they need ridiculously complicated plots to pretend like the heroes actually should have a chance in hell of beating an all powerful villain. It's annoying. Either Cora is really dumb or she enjoys convoluted plans because she's bored and needs some sort of excitement in her life. I picture her thinking Night of the Living Dead was kind of fun. I need zombies! and then sitting back to watch it unfold on her magic mirror.

[KingOfHearts]

12 hours ago, Camera One said:

This would really have been much smarter.

Spoiler

Well you know, Emma is soooo much worse than Cora because she made Violet break up with Henry.

[Shanna Marie]

9 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

On a separate note, the machinations Cora goes through to steal the compass back make no sense at all. Why can't she just poof to them and poof the compass out of their hands?

I can see how maybe there was magic around the beanstalk that kept her from poofing up there and taking it without all the climbing, but once Team Princess has it, there really is nothing stopping her.

They did seem to confirm that Hook really had stolen the magic and was doublecrossing Cora, that he wasn't acting on Cora's behalf to trick Team Princess into helping him get the compass only to take it to Cora. That makes the part of the plot where Hook is supposedly infiltrating Team Princess on Cora's behalf to get information even odder because it's so pointless. Unless maybe Hook was lying about that -- Cora took all the hearts because of her plan to raise a zombie army, Hook freaked and maybe stole the magic cuffs while she was ripping hearts, Cora caught him trying to run and buried him under the stuff and left him there, and then Hook lied about trying to infiltrate Team Princess in part out of pride because he didn't want to admit having been victimized by Cora (yeah, I meant to get buried under a pile of rubble and bodies) and part because they were more likely to believe him if he said he had a plan than if he'd just played the victim. Then Cora went somewhere (where? why?), noticed she was missing the cuffs, went back to get Hook, found him missing, and went to the beanstalk. But if she can poof from place to place, why did it take her so long to get to the beanstalk?

I'm not sure why she had to bother with the zombie army and using Aurora as a hostage rather than poofing over, freezing them, and taking the compass. But then once Hook took Aurora's heart, I guess she couldn't resist having some fun. But this is why it's a good idea to define and limit magical powers. If you don't want your villain to be able to just poof over, control everyone, and take what she needs, don't give her that power.

Hook really is rather adept at covering all his bases and playing all the sides. He keeps everything so that he can switch sides at any moment. He can look like a hero to Team Princess for releasing Aurora and look useful to Cora for handing over Aurora's heart.

It just occurred to me, this one didn't have a flashback, did it? It's just a split story, part in Storybrooke, part in the Enchanted Forest. It goes rather well when they do that kind of story rather than the usual fairybacks, and I wish they'd done it more often.

How did they know how to sync up the sleep times? It wasn't even like they were entirely on the same schedule, with both having night at the same time. Aurora kept running into Henry even when she fell asleep in the daytime.

[tennisgurl]

Weird not having a flashback this week, I kept waiting for us to see some character going about their lives in the past or something. 

This is kind of a weird one for me. I do think its weird that David is alright with having Regina as the one looking after Henry, but on the other hand, I get why he would do it. Regina, at this point, has been proving that, if nothing else, she does care about Henry, and this is a pretty dire situation. And Charming being put under the sleeping curse does a good job of adding more tension, because now, if Snow and Emma stay stuck in the EF, not only will they not see their family or friends again, but Charming will be stuck in a magic coma for ever. And it gives Snow more incentive, and drives up the personal drama. I really love the scenes where David and Snow see each each other, and when Snow freaked out when she woke up and realized that Charming was under the sleeping curse. It was really well acted by all. 

The dramatic close up of Emma saying its all Regina's fault (which...isnt wrong) seemed really weirdly placed here. 

Cora's plan seems a bit convoluted. She needed to make magic zombies because...

[KingOfHearts]

13 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

The dramatic close up of Emma saying its all Regina's fault (which...isnt wrong) seemed really weirdly placed here. 

It seemed like really heavy-handed foreshadowing. But you have to wonder why Emma suddenly felt anger for Regina in that moment. In the S1 finale, she threatened to kill Regina if Henry died. She was pretty neutral/objective about Regina during 2x01 with the Wraith. There was that moment where she told her Henry made her promise to protect her. It was awkward but I didn't see any contempt. If Emma had a moment that could trigger an axe to grind with Regina, it would be after seeing the nursery and realizing what she lost because of the Curse. But other than this moment up until...

getting airtight proof Regina killed Archie,

she doesn't seem have much against her and even plays devil's advocate to her advantage. I'm okay with Emma being slightly more sympathetic to Regina than the Charmings, since she hasn't seen her as the Evil Queen and she was still Henry's mother. It's not realistic but it's not a big deal if literally everyone else wanted Regina hung on a tree. Emma strives to be objective. I don't think "Regina is the one we should blame" is very genuine. 

[Writing Wrongs]

On 9/8/2018 at 11:44 AM, Shanna Marie said:

How did they know how to sync up the sleep times? It wasn't even like they were entirely on the same schedule, with both having night at the same time. Aurora kept running into Henry even when she fell asleep in the daytime.

Yeah, that was a stretch.

[Camera One]

Spoiler

And the whole sleep connection thing was never brought up again.  Henry could have communicated with Snowing in Neverland that way.  Aurora could have told Snow about what Zelena was doing in the Enchanted forest in 3A.  

[Shanna Marie]

It was awfully convenient that Regina managed to make the sleeping potion and give it to David at the exact same time as Team Princess managed to get the poppies, make the powder, and get Snow to sleep, even though neither of them were going to sleep at a typical nighttime bedtime.

[tennisgurl]

8 hours ago, Writing Wrongs said:

Yeah, that was a stretch.

Everyone knows that magical lands are all on Eastern Standard time :)

[Camera One]

24 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

It was awfully convenient that Regina managed to make the sleeping potion and give it to David at the exact same time as Team Princess managed to get the poppies, make the powder, and get Snow to sleep, even though neither of them were going to sleep at a typical nighttime bedtime.

They always find each other's sleeping patterns.