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S04.E06: Pinata


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I foresee a very short term of employment for Kai.  But I also see him as being used as an 'example' to the other dudes.  Those are gonna be crappy working conditions after a while...Kai is going to be a problem....but eliminating the Kai problem and using him as an example to the others regarding 'yeah -- do your jobs and keep your mouths shut and this will NOT happen to you' would be in Mike's playbook.  Definitely in Gus's.

 

Howard dropping an F-bomb was awesome!

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I have been thinking about Jimmy's sketches and doodles about Wexler & McGill 2.0.

It brings the mind the trope of a young girl in love writing her married name and the names of her and her imagined future husband over and over.  Him writing Wexler & McGill over and over is like him writing "Mr. and Mrs. James McGill." and his sketches of logos is like the young girl drawing hearts and such.  

Kim found it in his hand while he was sleeping, so clearly he was quite obsessed with the dream of W&M II.  

He wrote several iterations of the firm's name and description.  On the right, they all read, "Kim Wexler - Banking Law" on the right the different versions read "James McGill - "Insurance Law/Immigration Law/Gaming Law/Intellectual Property Law/ and one more I couldn't read"   Obviously all he cares about is working with Kim.  This lines up with the flashback, where we see him having no interest in the law, until he sees how much Kim loves it and idolizes his bigshot lawyer brother.  

Kim must know how obsessed he is with the Wexler & McGill fantasy and she seemed to go to S&C immediately, in part, to crush that dream for Jimmy.

On a related note someone on Reddit pointed out a parallel to what Kim said in the episode and what Walt said in the finale of BB.   

When Jimmy asked her how she ended up doing PD overflow she said:  "I like it. I'm good at it. "

In Walt's final meeting with Skyler, he finally admits why he continued in the meth business, he said, "I did it for me. I liked it. I was good at it. "

After his near panic attack in the kitchen, Jimmy returns and tell Kim, "Kim, you got to do what's best for you."

Edited by Bryce Lynch
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36 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

I think we have a good idea what is going to happen to them when they are done.  It won't be pretty.

I totally disagree. Gus is smart enough not to tell Ziegler what exactly his plans are for the excavated space, and his lieutenants won't either. He needs these guys to get the work done. If any one of them gets out of line or is considered a risk, then he basically gets Victor or Tyrus riding his ass 24/7. Look what happened to Walt and Jesse after Gale was offed...Fring didn't trust them as far as he could throw them, but he knew he needed them.

Now as far as one member of an engineering team who might be expendable...that's a different story. Kai may need to be sent to Belize to get the others to stay in line.

23 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Someone is going to have to move in the drug making equipment. 

Sure, but not these guys. If Ziegler couldn't be trusted to keep his mouth shut and ensure the same for his team, I doubt he'd be there at all.

Plus the drug making equipment is really just chemistry lab equipment. It could very easily be sent to Gale Boetticher at the college, and then brought over to you-know-where.

30 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

I am sure the girls will be brought in before he meets his demise. 

 

Yeah, that would be a very Fring way to make it happen.

Edited by ahmerali
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7 hours ago, Penman61 said:

Have we--or more importantly, has the show--ever explained the vast gap in looks, brains, and character between Kim and Jimmy?  I mean, that over-softened flashback cold open really emphasized the disparity.  It's just weird.  Yeah, I know, there's no accounting for tastes, Cupid shoots his arrows where he will, etc.  But...really.  And of course it's part of a widespread movie/TV pattern of incredibly hot, accomplished women and the schlubby dudes who...just get them because why not?  Can we just have Jimmy one time acknowledge how Kim is completely out of his league?  

 

2 hours ago, Ailianna said:

I actually see this a lot in real life, though, where the women are much more physically attractive than the men in a relationship, and yet the relationship works for them.  Some people (a lot of people, actually) bring more to the relationship table than their looks, and sometimes the pretty people know that looks aren't everything.  Sometimes I think it's like how rich people don't think much about money--attractive people have that quality in abundance, and don't always feel the need to surround themselves with other pretty people.  I'm not expressing this well, but bottom line is that this doesn't seem unrealistic to me, because I could go to a dozen social events and see the really hot, smart woman with the ordinary looking guy over and over and over.

I am making a broad generalization:

Very attractive men tend to make crappy boyfriends or husbands.  They know that they are very attractive and they don't try very hard to please or make their partner happy.  They don't try very hard to do things that they don't want to do because there is another woman just around the next corner who will trip over herself to be with him.  Men who are less attractive, but who are smart, funny, and have a great sense of humor are better boyfriends and husbands to their "hot women," because they appreciate what they have and make the effort.

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Just now, AEMom said:

 

I am making a broad generalization:

Very attractive men tend to make crappy boyfriends or husbands.  They know that they are very attractive and they don't try very hard to please or make their partner happy.  They don't try very hard to do things that they don't want to do because there is another woman just around the next corner who will trip over herself to be with him.  Men who are less attractive, but who are smart, funny, and have a great sense of humor are better boyfriends and husbands to their "hot women," because they appreciate what they have and make the effort.

And on the flip side, Kim is an extremely attractive woman who I am sure has turned down offers from many men in order to pursue her own career path.  It would make sense for her to realize that Jimmy is the one person who appreciates her work ethic and desire to get ahead using her brains and not her looks. 

Frankly, I wonder what it is about Kim that Jimmy finds attractive.  He has no problem charming attractive women into bed, why would Kim fascinate him so much?  

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18 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

On a related note someone on Reddit pointed out a parallel to what Kim said in the episode and what Walt said in the finale of BB.   

When Jimmy asked her how she ended up doing PD overflow she said:  "I like it. I'm good at it. "

In Walt's final meeting with Skyler, he finally admits why he continued in the meth business, he said, "I did it for me. I liked it. I was good at it. "

 

I caught this right away when Kim said it.

Now here's something that will toast your noodle: Walt says one more sentence after that. Do you remember it?

"And I was really....I was alive!"

Shortly thereafter, Walter White is dead.

Now the cynic in us might say that Kim doesn't even talk about being "alive"...because maybe she won't be for very long?

Discuss.

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2 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Frankly, I wonder what it is about Kim that Jimmy finds attractive.  He has no problem charming attractive women into bed, why would Kim fascinate him so much?  

I wonder if Jimmy is really more in love with Giselle Saint Claire than he is with Kim.  In this episode, he wanted to be Viktor (with a K) and Giselle, but Kim immediately brought them back to Jimmy and Kim, before crushing his W&M 2 dreams.    Is it the con artist streak in her that he is most attracted to?

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7 hours ago, Penman61 said:

Maybe.  But I'm that funny guy in real life who's almost always been lucky enough to punch above my weight, romantically, and I've NEVER not had it pointed out to me (or my partners been told) that I was, actually, punching above my weight.  ("How did you...get him?")  So where is that on this show?  Where is the acknowledgement of the painfully obvious? 

That's easy to argue away, as others have pointed out here. Jimmy isn't bad looking -- I think he's cute. He's also fun and sweet and funny. That goes a long way to make up for a lack of handsomeness. Since it's easy to argue that away, to have a character say "How did YOU get HER?" would be distracting. That's simply not important in this show or for its themes. 

 

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

He said it was a coati, which looks like a raccoon.  I didn't catch the name of the fruit tree, but the recap says lucuma.

Thank you for the fruit name. I missed it. I just googled and read that it is found in Peru, Ecuador, and Chile.

 

41 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

I think Jimmy wanted to be a lawyer to impress Kim.   I don't think he gave a shit about Chuck.

I agree that he looks into the law to impress Kim, but I think he also wonders why everyone is so excited about this stuff. He's curious. I also believe that Jimmy DOES give a shit about Chuck, and subconsciously he wants to impress him, too, or perhaps compete with him.

 

10 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I have been thinking about Jimmy's sketches and doodles about Wexler & McGill 2.0.

It brings the mind the trope of a young girl in love writing her married name of the names of her and her imagined future husband over and over.  Him writing Wexler & McGill over and over is like him writing "Mr. and Mrs. James McGill." and his sketches of logos is like the young girl drawing hearts and such.  

Nice observation. 

When they were discussing Jimmy not going to therapy, Kim says that he has to do what's best for himself. Later when Kim tells him about the new job, Jimmy says she's got to do what's best for her. Not that we needed it, but I think this is a sign that each is going to do what's best for themselves individually which separates them as a couple.

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Just now, Bryce Lynch said:

I wonder if Jimmy is really more in love with Giselle Saint Claire than he is with Kim.  In this episode, he wanted to be Viktor (with a K) and Giselle, but Kim immediately brought them back to Jimmy and Kim, before crushing his W&M 2 dreams.    Is it the con artist streak in her that he is most attracted to?

I've seen posts for previous episodes containing speculation that Kim had a less-than-seemly past before moving the New Mexico.  I've always ignored them but now they begin to make sense to me.  There may be something about Kim that causes Jimmy to see her as a kindred spirit.  

Either that or I am just way over-thinking this.  

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The cold open flashback was great in showing that contrary to what I think we'd been led to believe all along with the Chuck story, Jimmy deciding to become a lawyer was more about Kim and being good enough to put himself in the potential partner pool for her than it was earning Chuck's respect.  We know earning Chuck's respect has mattered tremendously to Jimmy, but it turns out it was still a secondary motivator.  So kudos to the show for surprising me on that this far into its run.

That reveal makes Kim basically choosing herself professionally all the more soul crushing to Jimmy.  This is what he worked for, what he struggled to keep his nose clean for and tried to maintain at least a respectable veneer to be worthy of her.  Kim's right to understand by now that being professionally linked to Jimmy isn't going to benefit her or lead anywhere good for her, but in yanking that motivation away, she's just unwittingly removed any curb he had not to let Slippin' Jimmy have free rein.  Once that happens and Kim starts to see him beyond the gauzy "fun" filter of Viktor and Gisele, she may quickly realize being romantically linked with him isn't good for her as well. 

 

12 minutes ago, AEMom said:

Very attractive men tend to make crappy boyfriends or husbands.  They know that they are very attractive and they don't try very hard to please or make their partner happy. 

This.  Jimmy's not a bad looking guy by any stretch, but we've seen all the way along that he's completely devoted and loyal to her, to the point that he didn't hesitate to commit crimes against his own brother to get her something he thought she deserved.  As mad as she might have been about it, don't discount the value of that.  Chuck and Howard have at points made comments to her suggesting they thought Jimmy wasn't good enough for her, although they too acknowledged his devotion.  I think she knows, but it's still her choice.  The fact that he's as smart and funny as hell doesn't hurt either.

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5 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

I've seen posts for previous episodes containing speculation that Kim had a less-than-seemly past before moving the New Mexico.  I've always ignored them but now they begin to make sense to me.  There may be something about Kim that causes Jimmy to see her as a kindred spirit.  

Either that or I am just way over-thinking this.  

I think there have been hints that Kim has a past, in her hometown,  she wants to forget about and did not want S&C to know about.  She clearly has a little "Giselle" in her and enjoyed an occasional con, just for fun, with ViKtor.  But, it seems like a hobby for her and a way of life for Jimmy.  

Edited by Bryce Lynch
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I'm still trying to wrap my brain around the things Kim said to Jimmy about her wanting to devote more time to pro bono criminal defense work.  Really?  I'm trying to be objective and take my own bias out of it. I was a new attorney, about the same time that we are seeing Kim on this show. So, to me Kim is perplexing. I guess that she and I are quite different, because, I just don't get it.  There must be something that we don't know yet. Either that or she just hasn't done enough court appointed criminal defense work. lol In my law school application essay, helping others was my primary objective too, but, you can help others in many ways. I'm trying to get on board with this. Maybe, I'm jaded. lol 

Also, is Mesa Verde going to be okay with associates and paralegals doing the bulk of the work, instead of Kim? I thought that was why they wanted her.   I didn't follow last season, perhaps, I misunderstood. But, a large firm is going to expect LOTS of billable hours. 

I'm really curious as to the work the men will be doing for Guss.  It seems like a security risk to let them live, but, it's difficult to imagine otherwise. If they never return home, wouldn't that start a lot of investigation and their last whereabouts would be in NM. Not good.   The only detail the men know about their location is that they are in NM, right? Still, loose lips....And, wouldn't you think they would have drug screened those guys?

I agree that Kim and Jimmy are oddly matched, but, in a similar way to that of Skylar and Walt, imo. 

Edited by SunnyBeBe
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1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

Perfect for whom?   Jimmy isn't a mental health professional, he has no way of knowing how Howard will react to their conversation.  Given Jimmy's track record of ruining people's lives, that is the type of thing that could push Howard over the edge.  I kind of hope that it does, simply because having Howard bounce back would be too predictable, something that this series tries not to do.

The animal story makes me hate Gus even more.

Perfect for the viewer, at least this viewer.  I liked the quickness of Jimmy's anger at Howard's wallowing.  He doesn't care a lot how Howard will react.  He may care a little about the ancillary employees.  He clearly had a heartfelt reaction to his elder client's death, with nobody watching.  We saw the many faces of Jimmy in this episode--caring, smitten, driven, conniving, heartbroken.

I have never liked Gus one bit, niceties aside; he is a natural born killer and we now see some evidence of it having started way back.

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53 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

I must have an incredibly dirty mind this morning.  After you said "enormous",  I wasn't expecting "capacity for work".

Perhaps, but over time it wouldn't be all that shocking if Kim wanted something more than Jimmy.  Not just a better job,  but a better person who she can trust and won't sabotage their lives together.  Jimmy can be a fun guy to be around, but he is unreliable.

Quite often people trade up for not only better jobs, but younger hotter spouses.

Oh, absolutely. It isn't coincidence that after Kim saw Jimmy's doodlings about a future Wexler and McGill law firm that she went to Schweikert to pitch herself as a full blown partner who brings in a major client with her. She's moved on from Jimmy  even if she isn't yet ready to admit that to herself.

Jimmy sees the writing on the wall and it portends emotional devastation for him. For years and years he toiled in a mail room  while getting a law degree, so he could have two things; the esteem of Chuck and companionship of Kim. The first was never attainable, and he sees the 2nd inevitably drifting away. Saul, a very angry fellow, is being born.

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2 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I have never liked Gus one bit, niceties aside; he is a natural born killer and we now see some evidence of it having started way back.

I saw it more that "if you wrong me, I will seek my revenge on you and you will suffer while I seek my revenge."

He was upset that the animal had taken all the fruit and he wanted revenge.  But not just any revenge, a revenge where you suffer.

He doesn't seek out random people to kill or torture, only people who've wronged him.

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18 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I'm really curious as to the work the men will be doing for Guss.  It seems like a security risk to let them live, but, it's difficult to imagine otherwise. If they never return home, wouldn't that start a lot of investigation and their last whereabouts would be in NM. Not good.   The only detail the men know about their location is that they are in NM, right? Still, loose lips....And, wouldn't you think they would have drug screened those guys?

Do the lab diggers even know they are in NM?  I am guessing they were flown into Denver or some other city, like the 2 engineers and then blindfolded and transported to a location unknown to them.  It seems like they are never going to be allowed leave the compound, except to go to the laundry to dig, and I assume that will be done without them being able to see their surroundings.  

I wonder if Mike will try to do things to misdirect them, and "accidentally" leave a newspaper or some grocery receipts or something else from another far away city in the compound.  He could also have his guys talk about going to the beach or "slip up" and talk about going to the Dodgers game, or something along those lines.  

Edited by Bryce Lynch
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11 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

Something tells me a non-disclosure agreement might not be enough.

It all depends on the method you choose for enforcing the NDA. (By which I mean Murder.)

Michael Fabian increasingly looks like Michael Douglas (with better teeth).

I liked all the upside-down camera work in the piñata room.

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Did Kim even consult with Mesa Verde that she was turning their account over to another law firm or are the writers going to hand wave this away?  Mind you, I always thought it was ridiculous that a bank only wanted a single lawyer to represent them.  Banking law is complex and extensive.  You need more than one lawyer for that.  But that's what they wanted so. 

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6 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Do the lab diggers even know they are in NM?  I am guessing they were flown into Denver or some other city, like the 2 engineers and then blindfolded and transported to a location unknown to them.  It seems like they are never going to be allowed leave the compound, except to go to the laundry to dig, and I assume that will be done without them being able to see their surroundings.  

I wonder if Mike will try to do things to misdirect them, and "accidentally" leave newspaper or some grocery receipts or something else from another far away city in the compound.  He could also have his guys talk about going to the beach or "slip up" and talk about going to the Dodgers game, or something along those lines.  

IDK.  You may be right about flying them in to another state. 

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I'm trying to envision the facility after it is finished.

Spoiler

So, the actual dry cleaning staff will never know there is anything unusual about their facility, until all hell breaks loose? Or, do they get extra money to keep quiet?  I'm trying to recall. 

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6 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

It does seem kind of strange.  Gus wants to do all of this digging in secret, and yet a whole bunch of people are going to know about it. 

Once the women are brought in, what is to stop them from asking the workers what they are doing, and what is stopping the workers from volunteering too much information?

Any women that are brought in to "service" the guys are going to know where they are, and there is nothing stopping them from telling the workers.  Of course I suppose they could blind fold the women too.

Oh I don't think the ladies would go anywhere near the compound. My guess is that if - and I still think there is a small 'if' - Kai needs to be taken out of the play, he'll be given the 'opportunity' to have some female companionship, which will be arranged by a suddenly amenable Fring henchman, in some nondescript location, and then that will be the last time Kai does anything at all. Then all that remains is disposing of him in a manner which the authorities will attribute to some explainable mishap. The Fring crew are quite adapt at that.

Just now, SunnyBeBe said:

I'm trying to envision the facility after it is finished.

  Hide contents

So, the actual dry cleaning staff will never know there is anything unusual about their facility, until all hell breaks loose? Or, do they get extra money to keep quiet?  I'm trying to recall. 

From watching some of BB again, it doesn't appear that anyone knows any of the detail. They know there's something behind that machine, but they're all foreign nationals who know better than to ask questions and risk their employment or their lives.

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6 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Any women that are brought in to "service" the guys are going to know where they are, and there is nothing stopping them from telling the workers.  Of course I suppose they could blind fold the women too.

I took Mike's response of "Anything within reason" to Kai asking when the girls would get there as being a "No" to the girls.   He had just told them to put anything they wanted on the list and Mike's guys would get it for them.  "Anything within reason" was qualifying that, after Kai's unreasonable request.  

At any rate, if they really needed to bring in prostitutes, they could arrange it under similarly tight security and secrecy as they used in transported the engineers and the diggers. 

2 minutes ago, ahmerali said:

From watching some of BB again, it doesn't appear that anyone knows any of the detail. They know there's something behind that machine, but they're all foreign nationals who know better than to ask questions and risk their employment or their lives.

Yeah, it was never clear how much the laundry workers knew.  At one point, Walt paid 3 of the ladies to help him clean the lab, while Jesse was running errands for Fring with Mike.  Gus was enraged and ordered the women sent back to Honduras...which I fear actually meant "Belize".   

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1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I took Mike's response of "Anything within reason" to Kai asking when the girls would get there as being a "No" to the girls.   He had just told them to put anything they wanted on the list and Mike's guys would get it for them.  "Anything within reason" was qualifying that, after Kai's unreasonable request.  

At any rate, if they really needed to bring in prostitutes, they could arrange it under similarly tight security and secrecy as they used in transported the engineers and the diggers. 

Too risky to bring them in, in my opinion, and Fring doesn't take unnecesary risks.. The only way it happens in my opinion is to have the gentlemen taken some place where the women are basically forced, in no uncertain terms, to keep their mouths shut.

I think you're right that it's either 'unreasonable' or a means of getting rid of a guy who is a problem.

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24 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Do the lab diggers even know they are in NM?  I am guessing they were flown into Denver or some other city, like the 2 engineers and then blindfolded and transported to a location unknown to them.  It seems like they are never going to be allowed leave the compound, except to go to the laundry to dig, and I assume that will be done without them being able to see their surroundings.  

I wonder if Mike will try to do things to misdirect them, and "accidentally" leave a newspaper or some grocery receipts or something else from another far away city in the compound.  He could also have his guys talk about going to the beach or "slip up" and talk about going to the Dodgers game, or something along those lines.  

I'm confused now because I thought this place they are now in will be the place they are digging under to make the lab.  The engineer was talking about having to shore up certain areas so there would be no collapse, and I thought it was right at that big warehouse.  I was assuming the industrial laundry would be put in that space once the underground was finished.  If they are actually going to be transporting these guys daily to a different site, that introduces opportunities for things to go wrong. 

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1 minute ago, ShadowFacts said:

I'm confused now because I thought this place they are now in will be the place they are digging under to make the lab.  The engineer was talking about having to shore up certain areas so there would be no collapse, and I thought it was right at that big warehouse.  I was assuming the industrial laundry would be put in that space once the underground was finished.  If they are actually going to be transporting these guys daily to a different site, that introduces opportunities for things to go wrong. 

I am pretty sure it is a different location.  It seemed to be more in the middle of nowhere than the laundry.  Also, in the scenes with Lydia and with the engineers in the laundry, there was a lot of laundry equipment in it.  The warehouse the diggers are in seems empty except for the houses, and recreational equipment.  

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2 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I am pretty sure it is a different location.  It seemed to be more in the middle of nowhere than the laundry.  Also, in the scenes with Lydia and with the engineers in the laundry, there was a lot of laundry equipment in it.  The warehouse the diggers are in seems empty except for the houses, and recreational equipment.  

So it's a laundry that people already work in?  And even if the guys are working overnight, nobody will ever notice that there's an entrance, or dirt being moved out, etc., or happen to come by at night?  That strains credulity a little bit for me, but so does having two pre-fab houses in the middle of the warehouse floor.  It just looked kind of silly to me.  Having recreation and a bar, sure, makes sense, but then why not just have sleeping cubicles or some such thing along one side.  I also want to know where Mike finds and approves these super trustworthy helpers to man the security and get supplies?  The vet? 

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I don't even care all that much about the nuts and bolts of the building of the super secret underground lab beyond it making me absolutely marvel at the amount of painstaking effort and resources that Gus and Mike put into making it happen for Walter White to later come along with all the subtlety and finesse of a bull in a china shop to destroy all it all.   Mike is looking more and more justified in his open disdain for Walt in the end.

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Jimmy arranged for the services of Huell and Mountain Man through a phone call to the vet.  It was subtle because we only hear one side of the call, but after making the deal Jimmy made a reference to replacing half the water in the tank, which I presume referred to his fish.  

Edited by PeterPirate
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Regarding the lucuma tree story, I am thinking more and more that Gus made it up entirely and it was simply a parable about Gus, Max and Hector.  Max was the scrawny, fruitless tree, that Gus rescued from the slums of Santiago.  He educated and nurtured him and made him fruitful, and got personal enjoyment (it has been speculated they were lovers) and profit through his meth making skills, just like he enjoyed eating the fruit of the tree and later sold the fruit to make money.  Hector is the coati that ruined all that by killing Max.  Gus is going to keep Hector alive and make him suffer, just like the coati in the story.  I mean, obviously Gus is drawing the parallel, but I suspect the story isn't real.  

The fact the Chile is the ONLY country, except for Canada, in North, Central or South America  where the coati does not live makes me think this.   

Plus, I'm not really sure I buy Fring's story of growing up poor.   He was apparently a high ranking general in the Pinochet regime.  While it is possible a young peasant boy could have risen that high in his regime, I think it is more likely that Gus came from a wealthier family.  He would have probably been a teenager maybe, 12 to 16 to years old when Pinochet took power.  

14 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

So it's a laundry that people already work in?  And even if the guys are working overnight, nobody will ever notice that there's an entrance, or dirt being moved out, etc., or happen to come by at night?  That strains credulity a little bit for me, but so does having two pre-fab houses in the middle of the warehouse floor.  It just looked kind of silly to me.  Having recreation and a bar, sure, makes sense, but then why not just have sleeping cubicles or some such thing along one side.  I also want to know where Mike finds and approves these super trustworthy helpers to man the security and get supplies?  The vet? 

The laundry seemed to be closed and for sale when Lydia took Gus to see it.  The activity of building the lab might be perceived to outsiders as the new owner renovating the laundry.  

Tyrus was already Fring's trusted man.  In BB and BCS Mike has always talked of "vetting" his men.   That could be a play upon words, I guess.  But, I think it just means he screens them carefully before letting them in on anything.   

Edited by Bryce Lynch
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13 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

Jimmy's motivational speech to Howard was perfect!  He does know how to turn a phrase, doesn't he?

Gus' coati story to comatose Hector creeped me way out.  That was probably the point.  Chilling.

Exactly! Stop wallowing and get out and sell the firm, you big baby. 

I wanted to know what that animal was I couldn't make out what Gus said. The Vulture review said "coyote" and I thought, you all know a coyote is bigger than a cat, right? Like even a really big cat?  A coati is a super cute raccoon type animal. 

As many people as Gus has killed, some deserving some not, this story upset me more. The coati was only doing what he does. It's not his fault. I have baby raccoons climb up and try to get into a bird feeder. I don't set traps to kill them, I bring the bird feeders in, or recently I finally figured out what bird seed mammals don't care for. (Safflower) 

Edited by teddysmom
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7 minutes ago, teddysmom said:

Exactly! Stop wallowing and get out and sell the firm, you big baby. 

I wanted to know what that animal was I couldn't make out what Gus said. The Vulture review said "coyote" and I thought, you all know a coyote is bigger than a cat, right? Like even a really big cat? 

As many people as Gus has killed, some deserving some not, this story upset me more. The coati was only doing what he does. It's not his fault. I have baby raccoons climb up and try to get into a bird feeder. I don't set traps to kill them, I bring the bird feeders in, or recently I finally figured out what bird seed mammals don't care for. (Safflower) 

I am really interested in seeing Howard's reaction to Jimmy's speech.  My first thought was that it would motivate him, but then I remembered that 
"Howard's End" was mentioned in the flashback, which makes me fear Hamlin might not be long for the show.  

Jimmy was also talking to himself with that comment.  He is also a "shitty lawyer" but a great salesman and then started his plan to sell massive numbers of cell phone. 

This is another reason to think Gus made up the story to terrorize Hector and explain what he was going to do to him and why.  As I have pointed out Chile is the only country in South America with no coatis.  The writers might have made a mistake, but they usually research things very thoroughly.  

Edited by Bryce Lynch
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31 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

So it's a laundry that people already work in?  And even if the guys are working overnight, nobody will ever notice that there's an entrance, or dirt being moved out, etc., or happen to come by at night?  That strains credulity a little bit for me, but so does having two pre-fab houses in the middle of the warehouse floor.  It just looked kind of silly to me.  Having recreation and a bar, sure, makes sense, but then why not just have sleeping cubicles or some such thing along one side.  I also want to know where Mike finds and approves these super trustworthy helpers to man the security and get supplies?  The vet? 

No one is working in the laundry yet. In last week's scenes, it was empty and non-functional.

5 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

This is another reason to think Gus made up the story to terrorize Hector and explain what he was going to do to him and why.  As I have pointed out Chile is the only country in South America with no coatis.  The writers might have made a mistake, but they usually research things very thoroughly.  

Gus is a Chilean national according to BB, but that doesn't necessarily mean the story took place in Chile. Gus could very well have lived in another country when he was very young. The Andes are a huge mountain chain....

Alternatively - Gus could be from any country at all, and just have a Chilean passport. Wouldn't be that difficult for him to arrange.

20 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Rn.  In BB and BCS Mike has always talked of "vetting" his men.   That could be a play upon words, I guess.  But, I think it just means he screens them carefully before letting them in on anything.   

 

I think Mike was referring to vetting the security guys who would be monitoring the facility.

Edited by ahmerali
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33 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

I don't even care all that much about the nuts and bolts of the building of the super secret underground lab beyond it making me absolutely marvel at the amount of painstaking effort and resources that Gus and Mike put into making it happen for Walter White to later come along with all the subtlety and finesse of a bull in a china shop to destroy all it all.   Mike is looking more and more justified in his open disdain for Walt in the end.

It was really Jesse who destroyed everything.  Of course, Walt fired Gale and hired him, but that was to get Jesse to drop the charges against Hank to save his career and probably his home.   Before that, Walt was perfectly happy to work for Gus, with Gale as his assistant.   If Fring hadn't allowed his men to use children to deal and murder, Jesse wouldn't have gotten up in arms and Walt wouldn't have needed to save him by killing Gus's dealers.  There was a lot of blame to go around in the collapse of that partnership.   So many ifs.  If Hank hadn't beaten Jesse, or if Jesse had just gone inside and locked the door, so many bad thing would not have happened. 

8 minutes ago, ahmerali said:

Gus is a Chilean national according to BB, but that doesn't necessarily mean the story took place in Chile. Gus could very well have lived in another country when he was very young. The Andes are a huge mountain chain....

Alternatively - Gus could be from any country at all, and just have a Chilean passport. Wouldn't be that difficult for him to arrange.

I think it is clear that Gus is Chilean.  He is referred to as that by Hector and Eladio.  Hector refers to him derisively as "Grand Generalissimo" and Eladio spares his life because "he knows who he is" but reminds him that he is not in Chile anymore.  

Edited by Bryce Lynch
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15 minutes ago, teddysmom said:

As many people as Gus has killed, some deserving some not, this story upset me more. The coati was only doing what he does. It's not his fault. I have baby raccoons climb up and try to get into a bird feeder. I don't set traps to kill them, I bring the bird feeders in, or recently I finally figured out what bird seed mammals don't care for. (Safflower) 

Exactly.  The animal was trying desperately to survive, which elicits the response of Gus torturing it.  I am taking literally what Gus said to comatose Hector.  Gus could have been raised elsewhere than in Chile.  It's likely he spent time where coatis live, or why name that animal?  He spells out how old he was, how his brothers scrapped to make a shelter, etc.  I think he was telling his true story.  It might match up with what happens later, but for me it shines a light on his character.  I never thought he had a particular morality that prevented him from harming innocents, and I feel that more strongly now.  He just refrains from doing things that might increase the odds of his operation being discovered. 

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12 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I know nothing about law but it seemed unrealistic to me that Kim could be offered a partner position to start up a banking division at a law firm and have it be a legit possibility that she could do pro bono criminal law. 

Even with the extra support, it feels to me like she'd have more on her plate--not less.

 

She is bringing them a great client with a tonof work, so partnership is reasonable. 

She will still have a target for $$ (everyone talks about billable hours for targets but for partners it’s more about actual money) and will have more time to do then criminal stuff on the side. 

I don’t think the work is pro bono but it is low playing. If Kim is good at it, it will likely lead to private criminal work. 

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2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

It was really Jesse who destroyed everything.  Of course, Walt fired Gale and hired him, but that was to get Jesse to drop the charges against Hank to save his career and probably his home.   Before that, Walt was perfectly happy to work for Gus, with Gale as his assistant.   If Fring hadn't allowed his men to use children to deal and murder, Jesse wouldn't have gotten up in arms and Walt wouldn't have needed to save him by killing Gus's dealers.  There was a lot of blame to go around in the collapse of that partnership.   So many ifs.  If Hank hadn't beaten Jesse, or if Jesse had just gone inside and locked the door, so many bad thing would not have happened. 

That may be, but it was Walt that Mike directed his final ire at for destroying it all.  And since Gus didn't want to work with Jesse the junkie from the beginning but willingly got into bed with Walt to get his hands on the baby blue, that's the decision that ultimately led to his destruction.  

I'm really not one to get bogged down on details for that show.  It's the overarching things that stand out to me and how what we see on this show sets them in motion.

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1 hour ago, benteen said:

Did Kim even consult with Mesa Verde that she was turning their account over to another law firm or are the writers going to hand wave this away?  Mind you, I always thought it was ridiculous that a bank only wanted a single lawyer to represent them.  Banking law is complex and extensive.  You need more than one lawyer for that.  But that's what they wanted so. 

 

She isn’t turning over the account entirely. It’s still her client and she would be the main point of contact. 

The bank is in expansion mode, and there was already a simple problem made complicated by her lack of availability. I suspect the client would welcome more support and structure. 

Frankly, Kim and a paralegal doing the work on their own was starting to stretch credibility. 

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3 minutes ago, Tighthead said:

 

She isn’t turning over the account entirely. It’s still her client and she would be the main point of contact. 

The bank is in expansion mode, and there was already a simple problem made complicated by her lack of availability. I suspect the client would welcome more support and structure. 

Frankly, Kim and a paralegal doing the work on their own was starting to stretch credibility. 

I agree.  She woudl need to clear it with MV, but I think having Kim, plus the resources of a large firm would be the best of both worlds for them.  

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I've never bought that the naive, flamboyant young Gus we saw in the Maximiliano flashback had been a high-ranking official in the Pinochet regime. It seems more likely to me that his father had been someone important in the Pinochet regime, and that led to people saying "Don't mess with Gus unless you want Pinochet's people on your back."

As for the coati story, I'm not buying it. The writers have given us every indication that Gus was raised in Chile, and they wouldn't choose an animal that doesn't live in Chile unless they were trying to tell us something. Gus seems like exactly the kind of person to make up a story like that just to screw with someone.

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4 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Kim was acting like a suck up.  Nothing wrong with that.  Jimmy saw what she was doing.

I think Jimmy wanted to be a lawyer to impress Kim.   I don't think he gave a shit about Chuck.

I think we have a good idea what is going to happen to them when they are done.  It won't be pretty.

I have encountered people who behave like Kai did. Usually they are taking some mood-altering drugs. Painkillers or just THC or something like that. Also, sometimes they are having a relationship with someone and that is making them crazy for some reason. My point is that people who do not have that kind of problem do usually behave in the way he did. It's kind of obvious there is something going on with him and we will be seeing more of him in upcoming episodes.

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I'm dubious about the name of the animal being a thing.  If nothing else, Gus was only seven or eight at the time, so maybe he mis-identified the animal.   

Along those lines, I am skeptical about Gus' story not being true.  Gus had to be completely certain that Hector could not hear him, since Hector could wake up and inform his family cartel that Gus was planning on torturing him.  So Gus would have no reason to tell a fake story to an unconscious person.  Still it's hard not to go along with the interpretation that the story is just a metaphor for what Gus plans to do to Hector.  

Edited by PeterPirate
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1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Regarding the lucuma tree story, I am thinking more and more that Gus made it up entirely and it was simply a parable about Gus, Max and Hector.  Max was the scrawny, fruitless tree, that Gus rescued from the slums of Santiago.  He educated and nurtured him and made him fruitful, and got personal enjoyment (it has been speculated they were lovers) and profit through his meth making skills, just like he enjoyed eating the fruit of the tree and later sold the fruit to make money.  Hector is the coati that ruined all that by killing Max.  Gus is going to keep Hector alive and make him suffer, just like the coati in the story.  I mean, obviously Gus is drawing the parallel, but I suspect the story isn't real.  

The fact the Chile is the ONLY country, except for Canada, in North, Central or South America  where the coati does not live makes me think this.   

Plus, I'm not really sure I buy Fring's story of growing up poor.   He was apparently a high ranking general in the Pinochet regime.  While it is possible a young peasant boy could have risen that high in his regime, I think it is more likely that Gus came from a wealthier family.  He would have probably been a teenager maybe, 12 to 16 to years old when Pinochet took power.  

The laundry seemed to be closed and for sale when Lydia took Gus to see it.  The activity of building the lab might be perceived to outsiders as the new owner renovating the laundry.  

Tyrus was already Fring's trusted man.  In BB and BCS Mike has always talked of "vetting" his men.   That could be a play upon words, I guess.  But, I think it just means he screens them carefully before letting them in on anything.   

You make some very intelligent guesses in this post and I don't know why I haven't read many of your previous posts in more detail. You can bet that I will be reading your posts from now on very carefully. That was a super post you made. Hats off to you!

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2 hours ago, ahmerali said:

Too risky to bring them in, in my opinion, and Fring doesn't take unnecesary risks.. The only way it happens in my opinion is to have the gentlemen taken some place where the women are basically forced, in no uncertain terms, to keep their mouths shut.

I think you're right that it's either 'unreasonable' or a means of getting rid of a guy who is a problem.

I must admit that I find the question of the security of these workers and the girls to be quite interesting.  But I just can't muster up enough energy to spend much time posting or speculating about these women. There are a million ways to pay professional ladies to get them to do what you want so long as you treat them fairly. I can't see any point to speculating about how exactly to go about obtaining their silence. They often encounter people who pay them extra so they will keep silent. I'm guessing they could easily try to blackmail wealthy and powerful people with their silence. But they don't seem to ever do that. My conclusion is that if and when they try, it rarely ends well for them.

After all, they are in the business of exchanging money for their services. They do not get money through extortion and they are not prepared to deal with any kind of violence. Either when someone will do violence against them or when they must do violence to someone else. In my experience, they are just not equipped or prepared for that.

I base these conclusion on the very infrequent times that you read about this sort of thing  happening in the news media. It just doesn't seem to ever happen and I think there are good reasons why that is so.

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3 hours ago, AEMom said:
3 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I have never liked Gus one bit, niceties aside; he is a natural born killer and we now see some evidence of it having started way back.

I saw it more that "if you wrong me, I will seek my revenge on you and you will suffer while I seek my revenge."

He was upset that the animal had taken all the fruit and he wanted revenge.  But not just any revenge, a revenge where you suffer.

He doesn't seek out random people to kill or torture, only people who've wronged him.

I agree, but this is also why it felt a little out of character. People are responsible for their actions but an animal is just acting instinctively and Gus never struck me as a psychopath. In fact the way we learn about his past in BB. he was basically in the drug business as his way to get out of poverty and the deep angry cruelty of his revenge against people who wronged him developed later as a consequence of the fate of his brother/partner by the cartel boss in Mexico. So showing him enjoying punishing a dumb animal at a young age somehow does not fit.

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1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

Exactly.  The animal was trying desperately to survive, which elicits the response of Gus torturing it.  I am taking literally what Gus said to comatose Hector.  Gus could have been raised elsewhere than in Chile.  It's likely he spent time where coatis live, or why name that animal?  He spells out how old he was, how his brothers scrapped to make a shelter, etc.  I think he was telling his true story.  It might match up with what happens later, but for me it shines a light on his character.  I never thought he had a particular morality that prevented him from harming innocents, and I feel that more strongly now.  He just refrains from doing things that might increase the odds of his operation being discovered. 

If I'm not mistaken, very few animals ever learn as a result of torture. I once knew someone who tried to "teach" their cat not to cause messes in their home by striking them. But that cat just grew increasingly more violent and dangerous in very short order. The rate of that change was kind of exponential.

It seems like dogs do respond to getting struck and some idiots find that to be an effective training method. I call them "idiots" because if there exists any other kind of method, one must be an idiot to strike any kind of animal.  In my experience, striking a cat has to be one of the most stupid, ridiculous, idiotic, etc. .... I hope that anyone who ever strikes a cat winds up with a face that is sliced to shreds. They certainly deserve that.

Edited by MissBluxom
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13 minutes ago, meira.hand said:

I agree, but this is also why it felt a little out of character. People are responsible for their actions but an animal is just acting instinctively and Gus never struck me as a psychopath. In fact the way we learn about his past in BB. he was basically in the drug business as his way to get out of poverty and the deep angry cruelty of his revenge against people who wronged him developed later as a consequence of the fate of his brother/partner by the cartel boss in Mexico. So showing him enjoying punishing a dumb animal at a young age somehow does not fit.

Excellent reasoning.

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